The reason retail PvP is BAD
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#Classicwow #wowclassic #wowclassic
The reason retail PvP is BAD 
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IMO the biggest problem, at least for the average player is that in retail you literally do nothing outside of CD windows.
In Classic Arenas, cooldowns of course help, but you can straight up outplay and kill someone at any point regardless of CDs.
so fucking true
man just make a pvp exclusive balance at this point
I really don't know why they don't just do this. Make an entirely separate talent tree and ability set for PvP so that it's easier to balance the game in general.
@@borga6566 because it's not a priority. When 90% of players do m+, they are not going to invest into pvp, and making a pvp separate - requires an investment
Just like in Legion. I miss this so much
Easier said than done.
The solution you are talking about guys is separate game louncher for pvp only. If you separate pve and pvp so much alot of players(like me) will leave forever. This is same reason i never played final fantasy couse i hate artificial boundries between pvp and pve and I play both since wow came out
The reason there is a such a small PvP community though is because Blizzard for years have focused on PvE Balance at the expense of PvP balance. Since MoP they've made so many changes that have made PvP more and more difficult to engage with as the barrier to entry became greater due to class imbalance and button inflation. PvP would be a much bigger community if Blizzard actually didn't keep ruining PvP with every single change they make to the game. PvE is a few hours a week in a raid, once the raid(s) are done they can either drag themselves through M+ until the following week, or they can jump into Arena/RBGs... Why would they choose PvP when it's just an unfair, unplayable mess...?
PvP is Tetail is literally just PvE with micro-CC annoyance.
thats not the reason lol most people just aren't MMO pvp people. that's ALWAYS been the case otherwise MMOs who have pushed for and focused on pvp would have been more popular and done better... but they didn't. a vast vast vast majority of players prefer doing pve content in MMOs and always have. even if PvP was easier to jump into and balance the player count would barely increase.
@@thatepicwizardguyIt's like claiming people don't drink milk because people don't drink milk. Pvp being bad is a major part of the problem. You cannot claim that they ignore the pvp because the pvp is unpopular, because its unpopularity is explained by the horrible design.
Also, he is wrong, PVP is easy to play, unless you jump straight into maxed activity. Pvp is also gear dependent and you enter at the bottom as you do with pve. It is easy to enter, easy to master and easy to remain there. People just don't do it, because of the horrible design. They designed each class in a way you can't physically kill anyone without massive control abilities. Why? Because every class nowadays has 3-4 escapes, 3-4 invulnerabilities or 3-4 major healing spells. In fact, I play paladin and I see thay most classes have much more mobility and healing potential than I do. Despite me being a paladin and everything, most classes would outheal me, outrun me and outdamage me. The only advantage I have is armor, but that also doesn't mean anything, because other classes can literally nuke my ass. So I'm forced to change classes. Why? Because they killed the paladins advantages. The only way for me to stay alive and deal damage is adapt to the horrible situation and give the maximum I can which is bare minimum for others.
Yeah, pvp is horrible and it is the major reason for the unpopularity. I'd rather pet battle with someone than play pvp. I can get through heroic raids without memorising the mechanics, but I cannot play casual BG's pvp. It is a joke, the amount of studying you have to invest to understand what's going on there.
On top of that... Another huge problem that I see with Retail PvP (And I believe I saw this from Venruki as well) is that in Classic WoW, now Cataclysm, when I press a damage spell, they actually do damage, you can see the bars moving a little bit and If I play my cards right, in most scenarios I can kill without having 10 DPS Cooldowns activated at the same time. I saw the other day a video from I believe it was Aluneth where he was showing the Fire Mage damage in TWW Beta... He kept using Fireball and the enemy literally took 0 to 0.1% damage out of those Fireballs, then he activated god knows how many CDs and he literally did a 0.1 seconds one shot on the enemy. This means that outside of your absurd burst window, you just can't kill a target, but if you are within your burst window, there's little to no counterplay to that... Now that I think about it, Retail PvP has almost the same flaws as healing in Dragonflight... If you are just healing without CDs, your heals will do very little to a player's bar, then you pop up your CDS and you can top an entire raid from 0 to 100 in 2 to 3 seconds...
Burst needs to be nerfed like A LOT... Non burst damage & healing needs to be buffed A LOT, defensive capabilities of Classes for both PvE and PvP content needs to be nerfed by A LOT... Micro Cc's needs to be nerfed by A LOT, mobility needs to be nerfed by A LOT.
very well said
Absolutely agree. I really think that the game, or at least PvP, would benefit far more from sustained damage and healing, rather than only optimal performance during burst windows. I also think that it would just make the combat feel better/more impactful in general.
Just look at some of the BG clips Aluneth shows he literally one-shots 20+ people in AV with a combustion while it does look hella cool when have you been that strong that you can literally 1shot 20-40 people on demand if u time it right xD.
Game has to slow down abit i think DF has been one of the burstiest expansion everything can more or less dish out RM damage within their CDs window.
I want my Windfury to actually be something scary. Not just act as a dot tick.
Big true.
and all the micro cc
And all the macro cc
due to m+ ha ung 30 mobs that cast and u need to kick everything so yeah, give everyone multiple micro CCs and aoe CCs 🤷🏻♂️
In my opinion i think its less the aoe damage and more the complexity. There is so much to learn and track while you have an insane amount of keybinds. It puts alot of people off completely.
💯
not really complex just play and learn over time. if you put the time in you start to understand said "complexities," you quicklly learn how to counter people. There's nothing crazy about pvp. You can compare pvp to pve very easily. You are fighting a boss in raid and your raid is wiping over and over.. do you give up? No. You learn the fight over time and end up killing the boss. The same goes for pvp, the reps you take eventually give you the knowledge you need to beat certain teams and comps. People just don't have the time nor patience to deal with being mechanically good at a 20 year old video game and would rather press 1-3 buttons killing an npc whilst moving from fire kekw.
@@UpLifTingXx Pve bosses dont adapt to how you are playing and counter you they have one mode and you learn to counter them. its completely different.
the only way you could balance that is by changing the way spells work in pvp, or a separate tree just for pvp (which they are not going to do obviously), because if you take away self healing and the AoE M+ becomes unplayable, its a double edge sword.
I mean we don't got the best system in FF14..
But why doesn't WoW just have PvP abilities and PvE abilities be separate? (that's how we do things in FF)
YES
Literally just said this before I saw your comment 😂
I think one reason why Wow doesn't have such a system, even though it would obviously be the perfect solution is world pvp in wow, since FF doesn't have that you can easily make a secondary talent and scaling system that is only active in pvp areas. In wow, if you are in the open world, what kind of system should be active, pve or pvp? Even though world pvp isn't a big deal and I personally never cared much about it, it sadly still is a problem for a separated system, at least I assume it would be.
I think there are a multitude of reason not to do this, one of the biggest would be barrier to entry, imagine learning a spec just to then find out in order to pvp you have to relearn the entire thing because now every single button is different. Second biggest would be lowering the skill ceiling (as classes would need to be simplified down alot). Lastly it would just turn the mmo pvp that people love into a glorified less polished moba experience without all the depth and systems that make those style of games interesting. Also ff14 has already tried this with making pvp simple and played around a limited number of buttons and lets be honestly it never took off for more reasons then I listed.
@@Zemilia22 That's fair.
Sure all this is true but the real reason i keep logging out is the 30 mins wait times for solo shuffle
Yep, I'm trying to gear my fury warrior, its been 3 weeks and I still need 6 more pieces of conquest gear, so savage
high queues due to low players due to shit aoe meta.
@@zayon0170 I'm pretty sure the high queues are due to lack of healers because playing healer in SS is simply not fun. If you queue as a healer your queues are instant which proves that point but also, it's not fun.
Some of the talent tree options does take care of it. But if they split out the trees a bit more into pve vs PvP talents, maybe that could resolve it?
can we talk about the mobility classes have? mage with 10 blinks? rogues with infinite steps and dances? Demon hunter with 5 gap closers? monk with triple roll, teleporting tiger palm, port and fsk?
Introduce M+ Talents. Like PVP Talents. Eg. One Movement Ability to chose, one def CD to choose, one aoe addition to choose. And cut that stuff of regular trees? Or Nerf Cleave Ability effects in pvp...
M+ definitly forcing a uuuugly class/spec design
BUT
the main problem for majority of player (low-mid rating) is the complexity and the speed of retail arena.
in wotlk/cata, i press 3 spell as rogue, and im out of energy, i literally have time to think and plan stuff with my avarage brain!
in retail i really cant keep up (2.4cr soloQ and +2.2 in 2/3s... i mean, im not a damn 1.4 cr player 😭)
Blizz should go for "in pvp *text*" on spells and passives. Like ff14 or lost ark does, some spells works different in pvp and pve (i dunno how to balance world pvp, but this is not popular anyway) areas. Best way to balance pvp and make it great again is to do some main dps and cc spells vector-like (plunderstorm) in pvp
Maybe just disable some talents in Arena/PvP for reduced AoE and balance everything after changing this. Should be kind of minor for them to change that but no idea really.
Can't play evoker in classic :'(
Cringe dogshit class, like Demon hunters.
I think pvp needs a clear seperation in gear or even talents as examples : ffxiv and lost ark ?
Man here’s a solution I thought of to stop blizzard from ruining pvp arena by catering to mythic plus.
All they have to do is make multiple legendary like items that buff class skills just for pve instances.
That way any class and spec can be viable in pve without classes losing class identity in pvp.
For example a legendary for a sub rogue that makes shuriken storm bounce each hit. Then another one that maybe makes shadowstrike also hit multiple targets, etc etc and let them equip multiple at a time so they can farm these items and customize builds.
This way blizzard doesn’t have to destroy class identity and just let PVErs get items to power their skills instead of giving them all OP identical talents.
Its weird how quickly people forget.
In legion the talent rows were largely designed as they mentioned in the name of "meaningful choice" where you'd have rows with aoe talents sitting next to single target talents and people HATED this because it never felt like a choice.
For whatever it’s worth, the self healing/off healing/ defensives is also a problem in m+ in many peoples eyes.
There aren't enough key binds for Cataclysm. Cata has more button abilities than retail making "cata actually retail" VS retail DF" sad.
Actually all the addons before cata had more. Even vanilla has way more to press than retail. But people just look at the pve 1 cast rotation and think thats it. Pvp is an entirely different story and most people do not even use half the abilities they should. Just look at all the rank 1 spells that mages in vanilla and tbc actually need extra keybinds for... frostbolt, arcane bomb, blizzard, all the low lvl buffs for dispell protection just to name the most important ones.
@johng2794 make a warrior on vanilla lvl 60 there is enough keyninds for your buttons. Then make a cata warrior & a dragonflight warrior. Dragonflight warrior PVP you spam hamstring & enrage. X2 buttons enrage does 80% of the damage
@@timesn9ne201 not sure about that... a few days ago i logged into my lvl 80 warri and i could definetly delete a lot of macros. Vanilla has less talents / abilities than wotlk, yes, but therefore u even needed addons to manage the abilities from your gear. For example the eng head or skull of impending doom or trinket swapping when sheeped and it breaks early but already got out of combat. Most people used consumes like grenades, the sand, FAP and so on. Vanilla was special in that way. Nobody would keybind these things for cata pvp tho. In rated scenarios u cant use them anyway.
I just know in retail i always have the least amount of buttons but some people always claim its so much more complex
meanwhile bg players >.>
Great content aluneth
Your clips are awesome!
@@mauriciosandoval3817 thanks
agree, where in fairness I have to say that I haven't played WoW myself for a long time.
Context PvP-Aoe, I think aoe attacks should only ever be worthwhile if you hit multiple targets. But I had the feeling it doesn't matter just spam and it's still good. generally there is also a lot of passive aoe.
Context PvE-Aoe, I think it's a pity all classes got everything: kick, cc so that nobody was excluded. And how does PvE look like pull everything and spam Aoe. miss the time when focus target, cc 1-2 other targets and interrupts evenutell the last one.
Couldn't they just have specialized skills and talents specifically for arena/pve. So when you enter arena the tool tips are different
Blizzard needs to put more work on the table, and make 2 different action bars and skillset loadout, with different skill effects appropriate to pvp , like FF14, 1 loadout for Pve, and 1 loadout for PvP, period.
why would they? pvp brings in almost no money or players... there's virtually no reason to care. nobody watches WoW arena matches. nobody cares about bgs. your rating doesnt matter. glad titles dont matter. nobody gives a damn other than the other pvpers lol
itd be nice if they separated the game mode and made it good with its own trees/balance/etc but there's no compelling reason for them to do this at all.
One big problem is all the fucking addons (not just with pvp but for pve too), they should all be removed or integrated into the game. And there are too many (and often changing) abilities to keep track of, and thirdly is gear. Imo geared pvp should be a separate mode and the default mode should be everyone has the same gear. Maybe its fun for like the top 1% the way it is now, but for average players its extremely hard to get into, even for me who has been playing the game since vanilla.
A lot of the problems in pvp exist in the pve endgame content too in some extent, too many addons required, too many mechanics and shit to keep track of. The better the addons become, the more complicated they make the encounters. That and for whatever reason they have been catering to a top 1-5% elite player base rather then the majority. Just imagine showing a small gameplay image or video of a raid or pvp, to a non-wow player, trying to convince them to try it out, the amount of addons ui-elements and mechanics on screen would make most uninterested immediately.
if you want a balanced system then... they should be completely removed in PvP. should be a standalone gamemode within WoW where all addons are disabled and you get set gear and a completely different talent tree (if that much is needed) that's balanced specifically for PvP. then you do your arenas, bgs, etc there. it'd be balanced for exactly what you're doing and there'd be no funny business.
we need a PVP version of the game where its also pvp balanced focused + add plunderstorm to that version of the game please aswell while at it
where its just pick your class/built of talent & gear and click que battleground: no grinding, no lvls, no dungeons its all only battlegrounds/arenas: also everyone got same itemlvl stats too so its fair on gear/items too and balanced sololy around that no addons and have all the important stuff built within the game, remove all the bloat and debloat the game overall
PVP in WoW "could" be more fun than a moba where a character is like only 4 abilities and often too limited what they can do but also not need +30 abilities : vanilla to cata was a good sweetspot
As a rival disc priest. I love pvp rn. But that’s just me
But the devs... they not like us.
PvP has literally just been a DPS race for several expansions now. You just press CDs as they come up and pump out your rotation. There's really not more nuance than that, even at the highest levels.
reach gladiator then, there stil is a massive skill ceiling in pvp even with this bs.
@@hamleyxd3352 I agree but its been easier than ever i hit duelist in s4 on a class i havent played ever(in Arena ever since ive played retail) and i never felt like i learned much from 0-2100.
Yes there were some lobbys i felt like i played that perfect and it was because i did that that i won but that were like 5 soloque lobbies of 30 rounds at most.
Other than that i was burst fiesta and zugzug fest in general i know duelist isnt considered any good but at that point im not saying i wouldve but 2400 didnt really feel out of reach for someone who was stuck at 1800-1900 rating for alot of years(havent really played that many 3s before soloque tho so my experience to the old 3s before soloq its pretty limited to let say 100-200 arenas if that many).
@@wtbskilllololo 2400 is a huge jump from 2100 in solo shuffle lol. Think of it this way, 2100 is just 300 rating above starting mmr.
@@christoffer5875 Im not saying it isnt but 2100 was considered like average i just wanted to say ive seen way more 2400 achievments than previous expansions.
Especially in Season 1 of DF.
I dont want go and say 2100=2400 but look at it this was at 2100-2200 you start to match with people who hover from 2200-2400 when they get bad lobbies overall.
So me at 2100 not feeling that i have improved that much facing someone whos 300 rating above me as a peak and better at the game but just had some lobbies and tanked 200 rating and lolstomps me cause i still havent polished my gameplay and make rookie mistakes and thats on me no hard feelings.
Couple expansions ago i didnt think the inflation was that bad or you could just roflstomp stuff so easy in general.Soloque 3s feels like a complete shitfest even at higher ratings you see people not pressing stuff sometimes and losing just because they forgot if youre 1s slower you might drop and id say that might be nice for skill expression and react times but i dont think many enjoy this current gameplay in general.
In general this is about SoloQue i feel like in actual 3s it would be way harder where people are more cordinated.
@@wtbskilllololosolo shuffle starter mmr is 1800
Lol. Duelist being easy is just because of inflation
But just because you can do AOE builds doesn’t mean you can’t just make a single target prio build AKA a raid build?
let’s use frost for example like in the video
do you just not run a tier set then? because the 2 set causes AOE damage
Just make a tournament style server already focusing on arenas, solo que, duels and rbgs. Balance the game around that.
They do not care about PvP. Im really not sure why people are even surprised anymore.
It's not about being surprised. It's about raising your voice so the developers know you want changes. Will they listen? Who knows, but there is no harm in attempting to make a game you've put 20+ years into, a better game. This is the whole point of them allowing us to alpha/beta test the game, so we can inform them of changes that need to be made.
It's not they don't care about PvP, it's just PvP does not bring any money at all, so it's on the lowest priority. So yeah.
For those who have an ego in m+ because of all the aoe damage they do, well now you know all your damage is a lie.
There is no other competitive game on the face of the earth that makes you get dicked down for 50 games before you can even be on the same gear level as your enemies. It works as a cycle too, once you get the items you do it to the players that don't. lol. Try gearing for the first time NOT on day 1 of the season. Even if they fixed the "M+ balancing" the biggest problem is that new people can't even fucking play the game!
Sentences that are flooded with absolute statements are never "very well said".
Arena is the mini game they don't care about pvp.
To be fair the 90/10 wouldn’t be as skewed if the PvP felt better. I dunno if you’ve played as a caster in retail arena but it’s a horrible experience. Not only are you susceptible to all the CCs but all the micro ccs/kicks are specifically designed to shut you down too. Kicks don’t bother melee so all the CC in the game can be zeroed in on you to shut you down. It’s an extremely frustrating experience.
how is it compared to sod? because sod pvp was a joke
Use the system the GW2, and im sure other mmos use. Just make pvp completely its only seperate instance with its own balancing.
yes finally so they can forget about pvp and never have to touch it again just like gw2 hahaha, let it rot pls
you just make pvp talent trees that way the pve ones cant be used in pvp and vice versa
Ironically the major issues with pvp are the same issues M+ players are having. Defensive and offensive cooldown bloat and cc bloat is the exact problem people are having with M+ atm. Right now a majority of people complaining about the war within from a pve perspective are all people complaining about the fact that nothing in the game is gradual anymore, classes only do damage during their cooldowns. People only take damage in amounts varing from ignorable to literally killing you if you don't have a defensive up. Then the cc bloat, so many classes have 4+ different cc tools so now most mobs in dungeons have a cast or require you to cc them or they just delete someone. Blizzard created a problem with talent trees which was giving everyone access to niche spec utility and defensives which is hurting both M+ and pvp. So lets not say M+ players are happy with the state of the game either, especially healers its just as miserable as healing pvp you either are playing with monkeys who never press defensives or your spending the entire game playing for damage because nobody can die when everyon has defensives up and no offensive cds.
Mythic plus is not the main issue though it does play a small part.
The real issue wow pvp is bad is because for over 10 years now we have a bunch of people living in only one form of pvp and think its the only version that matter.
Arena is a hige problem for pvp and is the reason why it cant evolve.
This is further impacted by blizzards catering all pvp only to arena players while leaving world pvp and battleground players to just fight for whatever they managed have time for.
Arena is a very tunnel vision version of pvp. It lacks the flexibility of both world pvp and bgs.
Being upset because everyone is doing aoe due to mythic plus and i lt affecting arena gameplay is pretty ignorant in my opinion.
When you do rated bgs you have some classes that do well with aoe and some that hit hard with single target. Both are needed to cover all situations you can run into.
Go and watch all the talent builds for arena and you will find nothing but boring single target specs very little aoe and sometimes cleave.
Arena cant evolve because its relegated to small numbers. So anything outside of that doing anything different will throw it out of whack.
In tbc blizzard would tune arena around 5v5 because it mirrored dungeon groups. There were plenty of post with them telling players they dont want to tune for 2v2 and 3v3.
Now today they tune all of pvp based around 2s and 3s arena which absolutely bones all other forms of pvp.
I say all this to drive home the point that arena is not ALL of pvp and making the statements that guy on X made just shows how poisoned the pvp community is by only considering one form of pvp viable and blizzard doubling down on that.
Too many abilities = many are borderline uneeded/useless.
Too many damage modifiers = bad base damage/good damage with modifiers OR good base damage/OP damage with modifiers. No way around this, pick one.
Too many micro CCs = stressing experience by not being able to control your character when the point is to have fun, it's a game afterall.
Thats why they made soloqrbg, it will replece arena for most players wbo enjoy pvp, bg always was lesss salty, and more fun
Evryone like evryone who see this video go on support menu in wow and submit bug and submit suggestion to them to watch this video . IF U WANT PVP TO BE BETTER WE ALL NEED WORK SO THAT HAPPEN
Classic WoW plays like a MMORPG, Retail WoW plays like an ARPG.
mage and rogue problem, i dont care . zug zug cleave always been my thing
This is not the reason retail PvP is bad. This is the reason the gatekeeping gladiator community doesn't like retail pvp.
The reason retail PvP is bad is that it's not fun to play, the rewards are not worth the chase, and the community is radioactive towards new/fresh blood.
Crusader Strike hits as hard in Cata than it does in Dragonflight. It feels good to press in Cata. It feels boring/bad in retail. Damage only being viable during CD usage makes the game boring. Damage is sticky in Cata. Healers don't 5 to 100% someone with a CD. The game is a balance between attrition, burst, and counterplay. It's actually fun. Retail is tedious to the extreme and played at a pace that chases away any fresh talent.
CC / micro CC in retail is out of control. The #1 complaint from new players is "I can't play my character." Reducing CC durations doesn't help when you can still chain 15s out of 20s of CC together.
MMR is shit. No one cares about your rating other than the rewards attached to it. But the gladiator base will gatekeep people at 1800 on 4-5 alts chasing away new players. Some do it because stomping newbs feels good. Some do it to sell carries. Maybe 5-10 years ago trying to make eSport Arena was a good idea. That ship has sailed. No one is impressed. Just make BGs the main content mode, make season titles the only rating exclusive content. Watch how fast people's animosity for 3s and SQ is exposed.
You people are wildly out of touch. "Too much AoE" isn't even in the top 10. If you told me 90% of the player base relative to Cata/MoP/WoD had quit PvP entirely, I would not remotely be shocked. Do things to bring those people back, and stop listening to the 1% of the player base that has chased away the other 90%. Sick of the glad-Dads.
what happens is they cater to you and many others
Good point but part of me senses this is mage or RMP propaganda with some of the top mage players in the pvp community coming together to talk about AOE in arena. Why is Frost Mage in a 3v3 environment considered to be the gold standard for wow pvp?
Seems like when people talk about good expansions when pvp was good they defer to the class design of frost mage lol.
Just make a seperate Pvp talent page and a seperate PVE talent page - remove pvp gear as it just ends up gatekeeping new players and have the pvp resistances and ilvl built into the pvp talent tree “take this choice node and improve your pvp ilvl to 528” -
Maybe you can add special effects or make conquest purely for cosmetic items.
I’m not sure if that’s even possible. There are so many classes and specs.
The problem is that they have like 8 rows of talents when it should have been dumbed down more. This is why classic-WOWLK pvp was the best.
@@Mduffy-yo6rb this is true, although I feel like they could just make an additional class pvp talent, rather than each spec
@@gavin3895 tbh the EASIEST way of doing it would give players completely standard builds with almost no choice or no choice at all for PvP and then you play with what you have and then just balance that around pvp... like pre-skill trees coming back basically.
itd give devs complete control over class balance and skill design within the pvp space, but theyd need to separate it out from the main game entirely.
@@thatepicwizardguy yeah it would be a strange approach I agree
Mmos really not built for pvp
I like yo cut G
Wow pvp is solo shuffle now, i get it if youre a streamer, got active pvp friends or in a large pvp guild you can do 2s or 3s. For the rest of us RSS is the most viable way to do arena. 30 minute queues because blizzard still thinks 3s with a healer is the way pvp should be os whack. Id take RSS as 2v2(dps only)with less rounds less conquest but more games per hour any fay.
Lmao rss is garbage trash gamemode 😂. It’s literally just mythic plus pve contest where the game auto ends for you 😂
Ok first things first, WoW PvP is on the lowest priority, and PvP player base is minority. So do not expect any changes or any response from them, cause they don't care and it does not bring them money, you might see some questionable changes here and there, and that's about it. There are so many FEEDBACK, starting from forums, youtube, reddit and so on. Did they listen one single feedback, even from the best WoW PvP players? Hello no.
Low priority = less money. That's that
90% of the playerbase plays Mythic+ because Blizzard doesn't develop for PvP. Nobody plays PvP because Blizzard doesn't develop it. Blizzard doesn't develop PvP because nobody plays it. Self fulfilling prophecy.
Every class doing everything is such bad design for a MMORPG. Even SoD falls in that direction now, there's nothing vanilla left about it. Everyone has everything, and the power creep is 100x what vanilla is all about (slow pace, long journey, very weak for a very long time, each class very strong/weak in some areas even geared at 60).
pvp should have their own talents and talent trees ... that's it, problem solved :D
Make retail PVE only. They are not going to dedicate resources to make pvp only rules. There are games dedicated to straight pvp go there to get your fix
They should do what private servers do and make instant max level pvp servers.
@@justinmccray5014 that's not a bad idea but... blizzard
WoW is a PvE game. Almost nobody plays PvP.
If you want good PvP content either go play a PvP game or try to push them to COMPLETELY separate the gamemode right? It should be standalone content clearly IF they want to bother with it at all (they clearly, to this point, haven't wanted to bother)
It’s not the damage profiles.
It’s the reward structure, that you can’t Smurf and that more players would prefer to PvE over PvP.
If you have just 30 minutes to an hour to play the game and you want to earn some gear or progression towards some gear then it’s just far more lucrative, easier to get into and you’ve got a lot more players at your disposal to m+ rather than PvP.
This is a community problem, a reward structure problem and an accessibility problem. Not a mechanical one.
I think it's all of the above, personally. I do agree that it's *mostly* the problems you brought up (accessibility and rewards in particular), but I do also think that they ought to change damage/healing to be more sustained, rather than bursty. Also, having an entirely separate talent tree / ability set might make it easier to balance WoW's PvP.
Not sure about that being the case in Dragonflight i believe they finally hit a fine nail on PvP gearing.Getting the complete Honor gear or Green PvP gear from the AH and the World PvP gear from bloody tokens have never been so easy to aquire.
Lets bump those 30m/1hr to 2hr a day cause that sounds bit more realistic and doing anything PVP related BGs/Skirmishes/WQs can get your honor gear which is pretty good at the start of a season(but even 1hr should be enough to progress).
I think PvP gearing is pretty fast and easy to get currently(maybe the few crafts you can do for Embelishments and PvE items with effects are harder but not that hard).I leveled a char in the 3rd week of S4 played some BGs/WPvP quests from 61-70 and once i hit 70 i bought full honor gear and with 30k gold i managed to enchant and gem the items i can(geared in more or less in a week with Conquest/4 tierpieces and 2 embelished items).Not to mention now you will get a free weapon in TWW so it will be even easier.
I think the problem now stems from gameplay mechanics and they should figure a way to balance that better.For one i really liked the slower set up based playstyle from few expansions ago.
I see theyre trying to reduce abit of the keybind bloat with making some talents being a choice between two like Ring of Frost and Ice Nova or Ring of Peace and Chiji Sleep Cloud.
But in general the game feels awful to play with everything being so bursty and aoe focused.
@@wtbskilllololo I think the gearing is mostly fine, but I do think there is justifiable reason to change how cosmetic rewards are. I really think having it be FOMO each season was a mistake ever since TBC.
I think some people, myself included, would probably feel a bit more motivated to try PvP if some of the rewards we actually want, y'know, actually stuck around. I think the best way they handle PvP rewards is what they do with Vicious PvP mounts -- easier to get during the season, but to get it after that season you must first get the current reward and then progress all over again to get an additional (or more) reward of your choosing.
That way still incentivizes active play during each season, maintains prestige, it means that interesting rewards don't get removed, and it also gives newer players something to aspire to and work towards. More evergreen rewards are a great thing, and I think the same idea could be applied elsewhere as well.
@@borga6566 Oh i agree that Cosmetic rewards,achievments,mounts and illusions should probably be increased or made even better so people could actually strive for them.
I like the enchant rewards mostly but i wouldnt mind if there were more beside what we have now.
In general i play arena to prove it to myself i can also hit rating which i havent done before and i like to compete the rewards are like just a side bonus for me but a welcome one sometimes at good elite pvp mog at 1800 motivated me to improve myself and hit it when i couldnt few expansions ago.
But the PvP gearing from a side of not feeling weak compared to the others i feel like its where it should be at the moment.
I’m positive you can gear quite fast in PvP, but I’m also positive that if you’re a group of 3 to 5 friends with limited time and just want to play some WoW together that you get less stress, more fun and can better incorporate players of multiple skill levels by doing two to three m+ dungeons.
PVP sucks bc of one word, "addons". its literally cheating. you can see your opponents every move. What other game does that? u can see all their cds and everything. Its down right insane. It adds a unnecessary layer of skill to the game. What is that skill u ask? Effectively using the cheat codes provided to beat your opponent. The cheat codes I am referring to are addons. Again wtf. If you can't see that addons are completely nutty and insane to have inside a video game, especially pvp, u are the problem. Wow players take pride in uses all these training wheels. its sad tbh. Even PVErs use addons like crack cocaine. If u remove addons the devs will have to make the game simplier. The reason the game is so complicated is bc the devs have to design the game to beat the cheat codes they all allow to be added in. Sometimes I play wow and think to myslef, wtf.
Why can't they just tune aoe spells to do significant less damage in pvp?
Blizzard is bad at balancing. That is why. It is their fault.
They haven't been able to do it in any of their games for any meaningful amount of time
PVP in Dragonflight is just Mythic+. It takes 3 minutes to duel a player if you counterplay correctly with your defensives. Everything is just about maintaining personal buffs or debuffs on a target and then releasing the stacks. It's really forcing people to burst in certain windows instead of when they feel the optimal positioning is achieved. The biggest problem with Rated pvp imo is smurfing and boosting. When you're 1800 and facing almost all gladiator players, it really puts the average player off.
M+ would feel fine with cata classes/abilities/talents. Blizzard is on a 15 year trip to the same spot.
😮😮😮😮😮
I stopped pvping once every class gained heals and interrupts. Pvp was much better when you had to depend on others to succeed as a team.
I disagree with this. You want to loose a game because of stuff you did so you can improve not because you have a teammate who doesn’t use the only interrupt.
Pvpers don’t want to hear it but… arena is a trash game mode and only people who suck at mobas like playing it.
This guys doesn't know what he's talking about - Pikaboo probably
AOE is fine in arena, people say it’s “not what arena is supposed to be” but this is only true for comps like RMP.
Aff lock in Cata is all about aoe. Same with spriest, even warrior and DK.
This is just a bunch of old washed guys reminicising on the days of Cata where they could just brainlessly win RMP games in 90 seconds or less.
Only 5 good dps specs in Cata = Sub Rogue, Aff Lock, Feral, Marks Hunter, Fire Mage.
I assure you this is not better than retail. It’s just nostalgia for outdated old guys like bigmoran
Yap yap yap washed
AOE is cool
That's because blizz don't care about PVP I gave up too and went to mythic + because you're fighting a loosing battle , but here's the solution copy ff14s way of PVP boom solved.
You don't even take into consideration that maybe a ton of people like the new playstyle for arena.. you make cc too important your comp matters too much. Most of us don't play 12 hours a day with the ability to play with any class they want at the drop of a dime. Current system is fine yall are just on some Hella back in my day vibes no one cares
Mythic+ ruined the game.
Every single problem in retail can be traced back to it.
I feel like the game would have a better time with balance and variety if they just had separate abilities and talents for each part of the game, or at least separate talents/abilities meant strictly for PvP and unusable in M+ or raiding.
@@borga6566 you can't because as soon as world PVP happens when you're attacking a PvE mob the game would completely break.
Retail will never be good until mythic+ is removed.
@@shawnsmith2241 I can't say that I'm considering World PvP as a main part of PvP. I don't think the balancing matters there as much as it does in instanced PvP, where the majority of the focus is going to be. Besides, Warmode could force your character to use the PvP talents/abilities instead.
Removing M+ isn't a realistic stance. M+ can exist with the rest of the game, but there needs to be clear divisions.
Lmfao mythic + saved the game. Without mythic plus WoW would be dead.
@@borga6566 It would break so many things in the game, it was never designed to have entire sets of abilities change and disappear based on whether you're flagged or not.