Only if you're one of those stupid sects of Christianity that think God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are all the same person. How super-extra stupid of them. Don't they know God made his own son go down and suffer and die a horrible death just to go, "OK maybe I'll save some of you". See? Totally makes sense when you're not believing in those WRONG versions ... ...
@@ashkebora7262 "Only if you're one of those stupid sects of Christianity that think God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are all the same person" So, all of them?
@@ashkebora7262 """"Only if you're one of those stupid sects of Christianity""""" That is every sect. There isn't a sect of magic sky daddy believers that isn't stupid. """"See? Totally makes sense"""" It still doesn't make any sense. Jeebus in the story book didn't die. He pretended to be dead then rose to the heavens to sit next to sky daddy until the rapture. That isn't what dying is. Dying means you DO NOT do anything, ever again. """"those WRONG versions"""" Every version is wrong.
50:20 it's funny because there was a thing in the Sims 4 where you can impregnate a sim that doesn't want to be pregnant by essentially getting them intoxicated. There was a lot of backlash for that and the devs removed that feature and apologized. What I'm trying to say is that some people unironically hold EA devs to a higher standard than a literal omniscient, omnipotent deity
This guy is completely insane, he's just polite. He said he believes in evolution and the flood, that is insane. Those are 100% mutually exclusive things.
@@coletrickle1775 Playing devil's advocate, you have some 19th century reinterpretation of the Bible by scientists - the central idea being that each "day" which God spent creating the Earth was a geological epoch - which you could then combine with Kabbalah's concept of the _qlippoth_ - impure and imperfect emanations of the godhead - to argue that evolution was a process initiated by God to try and fully develop WTF he wanted out of the world he was making. Then, you just have to assume that God did the Flood after Genesis and made all the evidence go away by magic. The second part is definitely weaker, but I'm not really willing to put much more energy into this thought experiment.
He seems like a good guy. He's got irrational beliefs, but he's not like a right-winger, using them for evil. His beliefs aren't harmful, even if they're not reality-based. I'm okay with believers like that. Being a good person is the main thing of import.
He’s not actively malicious, but he’s still an unintentionally malignant force in society. He went right for the right-wing talking points about abortion, despite claiming to be pro-choice, and said he literally can’t imagine an atheistic society. That’s fucking insane
One of the reasons I became an Atheist, was Star Trek V... I saw it in theaters, and I remember the line "What does God need with a starship?" and that got the little wheels in my 7 year old brain spinning for a few years asking that question whenever the Bible would suggest that God needed anything from mortals. Why does God need tributes? Why does God need obedience? Why does God need tiding? Why does God need prayers? Why does God need worship? Oooooh... these are fairy tale stories. Got it.
43:14 I love the murderer at the door thought experiment so much because it was literally proposed by Kant who argues that you SHOULD NOT lie to the murderer at the door. Motherfucker was actually insane yet he’s one of the most influential philosophers in history. He’s like the Freud of the philosophy world imo
I started questioning my faith when I was told that "God made the Sun on the 4th day." and I sat there like... "Wait a minute, how would we know what day it was without the sun in the first place?" and it all fell apart after that.
I started questioning around 8-10 with : why would an ideal being create anything when "being complete" (without a need for anything else) is a part of the word ideal. so it's ideal but it creates things it know's it doesn't need, which is a contradiction because ideal being wouldn't take an unnecessary action. I have yet to meet a religious person with a satisfying answer to this conundrum.
Also the bible says the sun and moon are light sources, not physical objects Yet we can see the Sun with. A telescope And on clear days you can see the moon during the day in the sky
It's so painful to watch progressive Christians like this guy. I'm surrounded by people just like him. They're so willing to talk and listen to you, but when the chips are down and you need an ally, they'll fold and protect the cracks in their beliefs over your rights. They compartmentalize your whole identity into their belief system. Example: "This Bible story can be interpreted as lgbt-friendly and my friend is gay, so as long as he likes the Bible with this story I can like him. My teenager who is exploring her sexuality and refusing to go to church is broken and needs prayer support so she can get back on the path that we planned for her."
Because hypotheticals absolutely demolish my belief structure, so I can't engage with them because no matter what happens, I will believe in a sky daddy.
literally every religious person using a free will argument, treats free will as the "get out of jail free" card. mostly because they aren't using arguments but repeating slogans so its not something the thought about but rather something they overheard and "it made sense" I used to do it myself
19:36 Wow, that is not a good answer to a SUPER EASY question. His actual answer is not better. Yikes. Then he says "How does christianity teach you to hate yourself?" Holy fuck. It's so commonly known. A great Family Guy joke is Peter goes to buy a potty training book, the retailer says the popular book is "everybody poops", Pete tells the retailer he's a Catholic, so the retailer says "Here is the Catholic book: "Nobody poops but you and that is concentrated evil coming out your backside". This isn't capable of being a funny joke (which it is) if the premise wasn't 100% true.
For the adam and eve thing, it's not even that they didn't know disobeying god was wrong. God told them not to do a thing, then a serpent told them "no, it's actually fine," so they did the thing. But they couldn't have knowledge that the serpent would have lied to them and they couldn't have known which of the two characters they spoke with to trust. Like i used to be a christian and the story made sense to me at the time, then it was pointed out to me that i should think about it more critically when i got out of my bible thumping town, and when i actually examined it, the story just doesn't make any sense at all, and god is clearly the villain of the story.
I can tell this guy has either never been in a supervisory role or is straight up a shitty one: one thing I learned from being a supervisor is that people are much more likely to follow a rule of you give them the "why" of it, because then they're likely to *agree* with the rule.
It’s wild to see how little reflection this guy has done over his own beliefs. Jake is asking the most basic questions, and he’s actually never considered them before.
He literally can't consider them, you can watch his brain rejecting reality in real time in order to protect his little happy bubble. These people are delusional, letting them exist in society without re-educating them is a mistake.
@@Noname72105I don’t agree with the whole “re-education” bit, but this guy does unequivocally demonstrate that there’s really no such thing as a benign religious person. This dude’s ignorance is actually an obstacle to human progress.
The entire first argumen gets defeated once you use the premise that in order to stay in the garden of eden, you need to be a slave to gods word and have no free will
"Everyone is deserving of death and damnation," is literally a foundational belief of Christianity. That everyone is fundamentally evil. If you can't see how that is fundamentally anti-human and encourages self-hatred, I don't think your opinion on much of anything could be worthwhile.
This guy’s not evil, he just needs some time to cook. Like, he believes some goofy shit, but he seems to be a decent enough human being for a lib. Much better than most of Jake’s debate partners.
Asking someone if they identify as an intersectionalist or believe in intersectionalism is something I find a bit odd. You're basically asking someone if they recognize the fact that things that occur in this world are often the product of more than one single force acting on it. It's hard to think of anything that could be attributable to only a single Factor or could be influenced by only a single thing.
Agreed, it's essentially just acknowledging that people there is a plurality to human experience, and that people interact with the greater social/societal structure in ways that don't effect certain people as much, if not at all. You would have to be a shit "intersectionalitist" if you can't acknowledge that Christian theology is a privileged worldview in America. I hate to bring race into this, but it makes me wonder what his worldview would have been like if he wasn't black.
You'd be insulted, then, to learn just how many people sincerely do believe they can trace all of their problems back to a single source, like immigrants, or trans people, or black people, or feminism, and if those things just went away then their lives would be near perfect. *We* understand that it's an odd thing to ask someone, because who on Earth would say no to that, but these people definitely exist.
I am a UU church member (you can be an atheist there - look it up). One of the big things I have to break through to SO many of the elder members there is how justice is not a single-cause/one issue at a time thing. After the murder of George Floyd, I expressed concern that we weren't showing any support for LGBT individuals despite it being pride month. I was told by a fellow gay member that black people "have it harder than us," so we should be willing to ignore the usual fundraiser for gay rights. -To this old guy, you can't be gay and black, or at least those identities can't blend in ways which uniquely harm an individual in a "white and straight is normal" society.
Point to the "Atheist scriptures" where it says "Man should rule over women". But first... FIND any scriptures or tenets to Atheism... at all! Anywhere... in the universe.
I'm atheist to the bone, but I don't have a problem with Christians if they actually follow Jesus's teachings. I still don't know how they believe the superhero-ghost stuff, but the basic philosophy's not bad. If they actually follow that and do good things, then it doesn't matter to me much if they believe the Santa Claus stuff if it helps them get through their day. Being a good person's really all that matters. I never try to talk them out of their beliefs unless they're using them to harm people.
I agree that hearing Jake be so harsh on a well-meaning Christian hurt since I also know so many people like this guy, but he did sign up for a debate. He could have asked to stop at any time but he kept going for 3 hours. Jake is just taking the challenge without using kid gloves. More "progressive" Christians need to be ready to hash out their beliefs if we want to move forward.
This is one of those "good on paper, bad in practice" ideas. Good people are good, good things are good. Christians can do good. But jesus =/= good teachings. Jesus is only what is directed as being such, its equal to say jesus would not 'save' gay people as it is to say he would. Jesus wanted slaves dead in the 1780s, written into the bible. Than its gone as the social changes demand that chattle slavery is denied. The problem here is between "good things" and "good intentions". Because most christians (and all religions) have a lot of good intentions.. they say "you should pray" and "follow his way" and all that. But how thats acted on is literally a harm on people. It becomes self-harm or interpersonal abuse. Its the same reason why these religious parents subtly abuse gay children. The fact of religion is harm, its not dangerous levels of harm immediately, but any level of sustaining your belief for "faith" is by definition, at least unintended abuse. I would love to absolutely talk everyone out of their faith-held beliefs, it would only better people. The same way i could want to talk self-hating gay people out of homophobia. But at the end of the day, ive got better stuff to do that argue about someones horrible beliefs, and id theyre just a regular person they really cant impact much. Religious and anti-religious people can get along for sure, but religion/faith and good actions are contradictory, religion had to evolve to accept today's values, and it will change to accept tomorrow's values, its up to secular belief to guide it to be "good" since religion fundamentally encourages abuse.
God didn't give us the ability of flight, teleportation, super strength, telepathy, body separation, self replication, limb regeneration, weather manipulation, mind control, immortality, etc. None of those abilities would effect free will. He created a system where some people commit hideous actions for often arbitrary reasons.
Jaywalking comes from the word Jay, which is 1900s slang for hillbilly. It was invented by the automotive companies when they were first forming to push off the responsibilities of drivers who were driving on roads that people walked on. The idea is that "only a jay would be walking on a place meant for cars."
Thank you for dealing with these idiots. It’s very cathartic to watch. I could never have this conversation with someone like this. I had to keep pausing and screaming into the ether.
nothing against religious folks but i think anything preaching total reverence to a deity rather than nourishing your own spirit and your connection with others is a complete waste of time on this earth. were not put here to bend over and serve.
2:08:10 idk. why would god make his word so vague and leave so much of it to interpretation. he created the means for humans to "misunderstand his word". he also knew how language would evolve, and how many different translations and languages the bible would go through. not sure but i feel like an all powerful god could come up with a better way to spread his word, or at the very least better preserve his word for humans to understand.
Cool story, dude. My thing is why that such a concern for non-believers and what is with the obsession of "fixing" people? It's weird to me and giving very supremacist for anyone who feels so strongly. "YOU'RE BRAINWASHED!" So what? That's what a belief system is until it's not.
@@missright9159 So don't vote then. It concerns us because crazy pants irrational brainwashed people get to decide what happens in this country. How is that not something you already understand??? """""YOU'RE BRAINWASHED!" So what?"""" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Lick that boot.
@@missright9159 Depends on the starting point. A former Christian likely wants to pull others out of the delusion they once had. For others, it's because they're sick of dealing with all the bullshit that comes with Christianity (very specifically right-wing political Christianity). My personal grievance is the continued cultural genocide against indigenous people around the world that has destroyed thousands of languages and cultures and will destroy more if we don't put an end to it.
@LillyAlara , of course. I don't even disagree, but this guy wasn't even giving that energy. I'm all for self-autonomy. You do what you want as long as you're just affecting yourself. You can argue that enough individuals believing something can move social policy and therefore that can be a problem, but I'm not convinced that it's fair to put on the individual like he's doing here. That's a systemic issue that needs to be fixed by not having social policy dictated by personal interpretation of religious text. I may be a Christian, but I am very relieved that we do not, or supposed to not, live under a theocracy. White men's interpretation of the Bible has been quite deadly to those disadvantaged people you mentioned. Case in point in this discussion, the fact that he missed the part where husbands must also submit to their wives but automatically adopts a male-dominating take is troubling even if he doesn't believe in it because many who have his same privilege DO, and is the cause of many of our issues.
@missright9159 now that we've all gotten a good look at Project 2025, I wonder if you've figured out why athiests won't shut up about how bad Christianity is
The consequence of eating the fruit before the right time is death. That's why God said don't do it. It represents Godly metaphysical knowledge which requires responsibility and maturity and purity to obtain and manipulate. We were always meant to eat the fruit, but not until God allowed it. We disobeyed and consumed or 'ate of' the Holy knowledge without being ready to integrate it - hence the DNA got damadged and death became a part of our nature. Now we get to toil briefly to learn the very responsibility we reached for by eating the fruit, it's a destiny we chose. We had no idea what right or wrong, death or life were in the first place to be able to make that choice. Now we know.
26:00 NO!!!!! It's amazing we have any answers for any questions about the universe!!!! It is awe inspiring how humans have figured out things like physics, and logic, and space time, and all this insanely intricate shit that we can demonstrate is true. And none of it came from a jeebus or a sky daddy or a book talking about a sky daddy.
We would be farther along if there was no religion. The Arabs were the very first group to disvier elements, they even discovered light waves travel in straight lines. Then Islam rolled in and stopped all that immediately. You can see this in the periodic table of elements. The earliest discovered elements were named by Arabs, and you can see the exact moment Islam rolled in coinciding with ZERO more scientific discovery after that point. It's so obvious.
I can‘t believe how uncreative christians are with their own faith. You have a story about 2 proto humans who live in a perfect safe haven and eventually one is tempted by a serpent to disobey the ruler and then they are cast out into the world the god was building from the start for some reason I mean you could read that many kinds of ways. Like god testing them on their free will to see if they were ready for the world he was building that wasn‘t curated but messy or something. There could be so many ways to read that alone yet all he ever talks about is about how they did something wrong cause they disobeyed it‘s like a child talking about an authority figure. And the saddest part is that the figure he is so obsessed with is literally absent. It isn‘t there. It‘s just not there yet he and all the other ppl believing in it cling to that emptiness so desperately. It‘s really sad to me tbh. Like how ppl can be so brainwashed that they make their whole life about this being that won‘t answer them ever or even be there at all. Like them talking to a wall and thinking it‘s sentient based on all the signs that it isn‘t being used by them to reinforce the delusion.
Man, idk if I can make it through 3 hours of this... I'm 30 minutes in and already this guy seems incapable of grasping the fact that a person with no knowledge of right or wrong would be incapable of knowing it was wrong to disobey. This does not bode well for the rest of the discussion. You did catch him saying something interesting, though... He asks about a 3 or 4 year old disobeying and says "They aren't born knowing right from wrong," which contradicts most Christians' beliefs on people being born with original sin.
1:15:42 ok. This is my biggest problem. It’s seems to all be about perspective with these people. But would I be wrong in saying then that’s the problem? If we can all just read it and take what we want from it and mold it to our perspective, then it’s not a perfect book that is clear in its message. Right? RIGHT?!? Ugh. And they use it as an argument! “Well that’s not how I interpret it” I don’t understand what is happening here.
As an anti-thiest, polythiesm seems like a weird cope and monothiesm is a litmus test for critical thought. You can totally debate jake, this is almost a year old, did you?
The guest in question would have to be a shit "intersectionalitist" (That isn't a real thing) if he can't acknowledge that Christian theology is a privileged worldview in America by ignoring how Christianity effects contemporary politics. Intersectionality isn't an ideology it is a lens we can use to visualize the plurality of human experience, and see how difference social, economic, or political systems interact with different people. Its that simple. There are more than plenty of people who still defend the historical events manifest destiny, which was a genocidal movement to annex the western part of North America and steal land from indigenous people, which was religiously motivated. To suggest that interactions between the past and present don't happen when it is the foundation of one's own country as we know it is just willful ignorance. I hate to bring race into this, but it makes me wonder what the guest's attitudes would have been like if he wasn't black.
🌽🌽🌽 Regarding: 50:00 to 55:00 or so, this is the same theme as the 22 part animation series "Power Corrupts" produced, written, animated & voiced by DarlMatter2525 & his wife! Watching that series blew my mind, and if you haven't watched it I suggest that you should because it will improve your selection of examples for rhetorical advocacy for the noble cause of our anti-theism.
11:30 That isn't answering the question. Is that a dodge, or is that being too dumb to understand the question? It has to be one of those two things. Do you even question the concept of sin? Sin is disobeying gawd. You weren't asked WHAT sin supposedly is, you were asked if you are capable of thinking about or questioning the CONCEPT of sin. Not questioning the definition, but the CONCEPT. So no, is the answer, he is not capable of questioning the concept.
25.9k subscribers. Not surprised y'didn't grow much. After that debate with Destiny you really just got gaped, tbh. Glad to see this guy hasn't gotten popular, else i'd fear for the world's logic.
God sacrifice Himself to Himself to save us from Himself because of a rule He made Himself
Only if you're one of those stupid sects of Christianity that think God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are all the same person. How super-extra stupid of them. Don't they know God made his own son go down and suffer and die a horrible death just to go, "OK maybe I'll save some of you".
See? Totally makes sense when you're not believing in those WRONG versions ... ...
Keep in mind only to save a select few people who believe in him. All the rest go to hell or oblivion
@@ashkebora7262 "Only if you're one of those stupid sects of Christianity that think God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are all the same person"
So, all of them?
@@ashkebora7262 """"Only if you're one of those stupid sects of Christianity""""" That is every sect. There isn't a sect of magic sky daddy believers that isn't stupid.
""""See? Totally makes sense"""" It still doesn't make any sense. Jeebus in the story book didn't die. He pretended to be dead then rose to the heavens to sit next to sky daddy until the rapture. That isn't what dying is. Dying means you DO NOT do anything, ever again.
""""those WRONG versions"""" Every version is wrong.
@@WhiteScorpio2There are non-trinitarian sects. That doesn't make them any more sane. Just less insane on one detail.
50:20 it's funny because there was a thing in the Sims 4 where you can impregnate a sim that doesn't want to be pregnant by essentially getting them intoxicated. There was a lot of backlash for that and the devs removed that feature and apologized. What I'm trying to say is that some people unironically hold EA devs to a higher standard than a literal omniscient, omnipotent deity
@@Pystoriait was a oppsy in the code that made it so getting sims drunk bi passed the checks.
It's refreshing to see Jake debate someone who's not completely insane
This guy is completely insane, he's just polite. He said he believes in evolution and the flood, that is insane. Those are 100% mutually exclusive things.
@@coletrickle1775 Playing devil's advocate, you have some 19th century reinterpretation of the Bible by scientists - the central idea being that each "day" which God spent creating the Earth was a geological epoch - which you could then combine with Kabbalah's concept of the _qlippoth_ - impure and imperfect emanations of the godhead - to argue that evolution was a process initiated by God to try and fully develop WTF he wanted out of the world he was making.
Then, you just have to assume that God did the Flood after Genesis and made all the evidence go away by magic.
The second part is definitely weaker, but I'm not really willing to put much more energy into this thought experiment.
He seems like a good guy. He's got irrational beliefs, but he's not like a right-winger, using them for evil. His beliefs aren't harmful, even if they're not reality-based. I'm okay with believers like that. Being a good person is the main thing of import.
He’s not actively malicious, but he’s still an unintentionally malignant force in society. He went right for the right-wing talking points about abortion, despite claiming to be pro-choice, and said he literally can’t imagine an atheistic society. That’s fucking insane
He Is 100% INSANE!!!
One of the reasons I became an Atheist, was Star Trek V... I saw it in theaters, and I remember the line "What does God need with a starship?" and that got the little wheels in my 7 year old brain spinning for a few years asking that question whenever the Bible would suggest that God needed anything from mortals.
Why does God need tributes? Why does God need obedience? Why does God need tiding? Why does God need prayers? Why does God need worship?
Oooooh... these are fairy tale stories. Got it.
43:14 I love the murderer at the door thought experiment so much because it was literally proposed by Kant who argues that you SHOULD NOT lie to the murderer at the door. Motherfucker was actually insane yet he’s one of the most influential philosophers in history. He’s like the Freud of the philosophy world imo
I started questioning my faith when I was told that "God made the Sun on the 4th day." and I sat there like... "Wait a minute, how would we know what day it was without the sun in the first place?" and it all fell apart after that.
I started questioning around 8-10 with :
why would an ideal being create anything when "being complete" (without a need for anything else) is a part of the word ideal.
so it's ideal but it creates things it know's it doesn't need, which is a contradiction because ideal being wouldn't take an unnecessary action.
I have yet to meet a religious person with a satisfying answer to this conundrum.
Also the bible says the sun and moon are light sources, not physical objects
Yet we can see the Sun with. A telescope
And on clear days you can see the moon during the day in the sky
He has never questioned anything until today and its obvious
It's so painful to watch progressive Christians like this guy. I'm surrounded by people just like him. They're so willing to talk and listen to you, but when the chips are down and you need an ally, they'll fold and protect the cracks in their beliefs over your rights. They compartmentalize your whole identity into their belief system.
Example: "This Bible story can be interpreted as lgbt-friendly and my friend is gay, so as long as he likes the Bible with this story I can like him. My teenager who is exploring her sexuality and refusing to go to church is broken and needs prayer support so she can get back on the path that we planned for her."
"I wont answer a hypothetical" like ok why not though?
Because hypotheticals absolutely demolish my belief structure, so I can't engage with them because no matter what happens, I will believe in a sky daddy.
The invincible ignorance fallacy of theists gets so old so fast its like a broken record
Free will is not the "get out of jail free" card this guy seems to think it is.
literally every religious person using a free will argument, treats free will as the "get out of jail free" card.
mostly because they aren't using arguments but repeating slogans so its not something the thought about but rather something they overheard and "it made sense"
I used to do it myself
19:36 Wow, that is not a good answer to a SUPER EASY question. His actual answer is not better. Yikes.
Then he says "How does christianity teach you to hate yourself?" Holy fuck. It's so commonly known. A great Family Guy joke is Peter goes to buy a potty training book, the retailer says the popular book is "everybody poops", Pete tells the retailer he's a Catholic, so the retailer says "Here is the Catholic book: "Nobody poops but you and that is concentrated evil coming out your backside". This isn't capable of being a funny joke (which it is) if the premise wasn't 100% true.
"In the name of Math, I will colonize Brazil because my Algebra equations says that's what Math will allow!"
We must establish colonies thanks to the Almighty imaginary number
For the adam and eve thing, it's not even that they didn't know disobeying god was wrong. God told them not to do a thing, then a serpent told them "no, it's actually fine," so they did the thing. But they couldn't have knowledge that the serpent would have lied to them and they couldn't have known which of the two characters they spoke with to trust.
Like i used to be a christian and the story made sense to me at the time, then it was pointed out to me that i should think about it more critically when i got out of my bible thumping town, and when i actually examined it, the story just doesn't make any sense at all, and god is clearly the villain of the story.
The craziest part to me is the snake isn't even lying.
You can see this dude fighting the turning of the gears, but I think it's too late. He's having a shit-ton of doubt now lol.
This poor dude just had the veil lifted for the first time.
I can tell this guy has either never been in a supervisory role or is straight up a shitty one: one thing I learned from being a supervisor is that people are much more likely to follow a rule of you give them the "why" of it, because then they're likely to *agree* with the rule.
It’s wild to see how little reflection this guy has done over his own beliefs. Jake is asking the most basic questions, and he’s actually never considered them before.
He literally can't consider them, you can watch his brain rejecting reality in real time in order to protect his little happy bubble.
These people are delusional, letting them exist in society without re-educating them is a mistake.
@@Noname72105I don’t agree with the whole “re-education” bit, but this guy does unequivocally demonstrate that there’s really no such thing as a benign religious person. This dude’s ignorance is actually an obstacle to human progress.
@@JoshuaWillis89 The alternative is more grim. We will never have a functional society as long as belief in magic is allowed to proliferate.
My brain the entire time:
AAAAHHHHH!!!! IT HURTS, BUT ITS NOSTALGIC PAIN SO I LIKE IT!
The existence of the Christian god would make free will impossible. Don't let them use free will as a defense of anything.
Hot new Jake debate just dropped! Check it out 😎
The entire first argumen gets defeated once you use the premise that in order to stay in the garden of eden, you need to be a slave to gods word and have no free will
The more I find out about awful things about Christianity the more I question why it's even legal. I'm a former christian btw
"Everyone is deserving of death and damnation," is literally a foundational belief of Christianity. That everyone is fundamentally evil.
If you can't see how that is fundamentally anti-human and encourages self-hatred, I don't think your opinion on much of anything could be worthwhile.
had to look up the definition of principalities: "A state ruled by a prince" lmao
Holy fuck the cognitive dissonance with the original sin stuff. Jake explained it perfectly well and the other guy wouldn't grasp it whatsoever.
he does come off as dense
Free will is not a coherent concept. Granting it is a mistake.
This guy’s not evil, he just needs some time to cook. Like, he believes some goofy shit, but he seems to be a decent enough human being for a lib. Much better than most of Jake’s debate partners.
The prayer part actually made me mad. To go through two hours of this and be like oh i know what I'll say Prayer Works? Like wtf!!!
Asking someone if they identify as an intersectionalist or believe in intersectionalism is something I find a bit odd. You're basically asking someone if they recognize the fact that things that occur in this world are often the product of more than one single force acting on it.
It's hard to think of anything that could be attributable to only a single Factor or could be influenced by only a single thing.
Agreed, it's essentially just acknowledging that people there is a plurality to human experience, and that people interact with the greater social/societal structure in ways that don't effect certain people as much, if not at all. You would have to be a shit "intersectionalitist" if you can't acknowledge that Christian theology is a privileged worldview in America. I hate to bring race into this, but it makes me wonder what his worldview would have been like if he wasn't black.
You'd be insulted, then, to learn just how many people sincerely do believe they can trace all of their problems back to a single source, like immigrants, or trans people, or black people, or feminism, and if those things just went away then their lives would be near perfect. *We* understand that it's an odd thing to ask someone, because who on Earth would say no to that, but these people definitely exist.
You say that, but 80% of this conversation is a guy rejecting causality because it makes him uncomfy.
After he agreed with intersectionality
I am a UU church member (you can be an atheist there - look it up). One of the big things I have to break through to SO many of the elder members there is how justice is not a single-cause/one issue at a time thing. After the murder of George Floyd, I expressed concern that we weren't showing any support for LGBT individuals despite it being pride month. I was told by a fellow gay member that black people "have it harder than us," so we should be willing to ignore the usual fundraiser for gay rights. -To this old guy, you can't be gay and black, or at least those identities can't blend in ways which uniquely harm an individual in a "white and straight is normal" society.
Point to the "Atheist scriptures" where it says "Man should rule over women". But first... FIND any scriptures or tenets to Atheism... at all! Anywhere... in the universe.
I'm atheist to the bone, but I don't have a problem with Christians if they actually follow Jesus's teachings. I still don't know how they believe the superhero-ghost stuff, but the basic philosophy's not bad. If they actually follow that and do good things, then it doesn't matter to me much if they believe the Santa Claus stuff if it helps them get through their day. Being a good person's really all that matters. I never try to talk them out of their beliefs unless they're using them to harm people.
I agree that hearing Jake be so harsh on a well-meaning Christian hurt since I also know so many people like this guy, but he did sign up for a debate. He could have asked to stop at any time but he kept going for 3 hours. Jake is just taking the challenge without using kid gloves. More "progressive" Christians need to be ready to hash out their beliefs if we want to move forward.
This is one of those "good on paper, bad in practice" ideas. Good people are good, good things are good. Christians can do good.
But jesus =/= good teachings. Jesus is only what is directed as being such, its equal to say jesus would not 'save' gay people as it is to say he would. Jesus wanted slaves dead in the 1780s, written into the bible. Than its gone as the social changes demand that chattle slavery is denied.
The problem here is between "good things" and "good intentions". Because most christians (and all religions) have a lot of good intentions.. they say "you should pray" and "follow his way" and all that. But how thats acted on is literally a harm on people. It becomes self-harm or interpersonal abuse. Its the same reason why these religious parents subtly abuse gay children.
The fact of religion is harm, its not dangerous levels of harm immediately, but any level of sustaining your belief for "faith" is by definition, at least unintended abuse. I would love to absolutely talk everyone out of their faith-held beliefs, it would only better people. The same way i could want to talk self-hating gay people out of homophobia.
But at the end of the day, ive got better stuff to do that argue about someones horrible beliefs, and id theyre just a regular person they really cant impact much.
Religious and anti-religious people can get along for sure, but religion/faith and good actions are contradictory, religion had to evolve to accept today's values, and it will change to accept tomorrow's values, its up to secular belief to guide it to be "good" since religion fundamentally encourages abuse.
God didn't give us the ability of flight, teleportation, super strength, telepathy, body separation, self replication, limb regeneration, weather manipulation, mind control, immortality, etc.
None of those abilities would effect free will. He created a system where some people commit hideous actions for often arbitrary reasons.
That is a fantastic point
Someone needs to do a D&D parody with the bible. That analogy might help
2x speed, let's go
It is wild to me that someone can be this delusional.
As expected. Confirmed bias thanks to you, friend. :)
Jaywalking comes from the word Jay, which is 1900s slang for hillbilly. It was invented by the automotive companies when they were first forming to push off the responsibilities of drivers who were driving on roads that people walked on.
The idea is that "only a jay would be walking on a place meant for cars."
He seems like a decent enough guy. Hope he comes around
I really hope he watches tbr❤
Thank you for dealing with these idiots. It’s very cathartic to watch. I could never have this conversation with someone like this. I had to keep pausing and screaming into the ether.
Jay Walking wasn't racist, it was classest. It was basically calling someone a hick or yokal?
nothing against religious folks but i think anything preaching total reverence to a deity rather than nourishing your own spirit and your connection with others is a complete waste of time on this earth. were not put here to bend over and serve.
2:08:10 idk. why would god make his word so vague and leave so much of it to interpretation. he created the means for humans to "misunderstand his word". he also knew how language would evolve, and how many different translations and languages the bible would go through. not sure but i feel like an all powerful god could come up with a better way to spread his word, or at the very least better preserve his word for humans to understand.
Being a woman is equivalent to going into the Sahara Desert?
Gotta love when an atheist knows more about the Bible that a Christians 😂
This guy only needs to deep dive into the consequences of using one viewpoint to paint the world to be a pretty decent dude
This guy is like a lot of Christians. No self reflection or study of the rest of the book or teachings even Jesus side alone to know the issues.
Cool story, dude. My thing is why that such a concern for non-believers and what is with the obsession of "fixing" people? It's weird to me and giving very supremacist for anyone who feels so strongly.
"YOU'RE BRAINWASHED!" So what? That's what a belief system is until it's not.
@@missright9159 So don't vote then. It concerns us because crazy pants irrational brainwashed people get to decide what happens in this country. How is that not something you already understand???
"""""YOU'RE BRAINWASHED!" So what?"""" 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Lick that boot.
@@missright9159 Depends on the starting point. A former Christian likely wants to pull others out of the delusion they once had. For others, it's because they're sick of dealing with all the bullshit that comes with Christianity (very specifically right-wing political Christianity). My personal grievance is the continued cultural genocide against indigenous people around the world that has destroyed thousands of languages and cultures and will destroy more if we don't put an end to it.
@LillyAlara , of course. I don't even disagree, but this guy wasn't even giving that energy. I'm all for self-autonomy. You do what you want as long as you're just affecting yourself. You can argue that enough individuals believing something can move social policy and therefore that can be a problem, but I'm not convinced that it's fair to put on the individual like he's doing here. That's a systemic issue that needs to be fixed by not having social policy dictated by personal interpretation of religious text. I may be a Christian, but I am very relieved that we do not, or supposed to not, live under a theocracy. White men's interpretation of the Bible has been quite deadly to those disadvantaged people you mentioned.
Case in point in this discussion, the fact that he missed the part where husbands must also submit to their wives but automatically adopts a male-dominating take is troubling even if he doesn't believe in it because many who have his same privilege DO, and is the cause of many of our issues.
@missright9159 now that we've all gotten a good look at Project 2025, I wonder if you've figured out why athiests won't shut up about how bad Christianity is
Is it weird that playing halo as a little kid is what killed my religious beliefs. I just sat there and went holy shit Christianity is a death cult.
The consequence of eating the fruit before the right time is death. That's why God said don't do it. It represents Godly metaphysical knowledge which requires responsibility and maturity and purity to obtain and manipulate. We were always meant to eat the fruit, but not until God allowed it. We disobeyed and consumed or 'ate of' the Holy knowledge without being ready to integrate it - hence the DNA got damadged and death became a part of our nature. Now we get to toil briefly to learn the very responsibility we reached for by eating the fruit, it's a destiny we chose. We had no idea what right or wrong, death or life were in the first place to be able to make that choice. Now we know.
Religion = Ignorance
Jake knows more about this guy's faith than he does.
God failed parenting 101.
26:00 NO!!!!! It's amazing we have any answers for any questions about the universe!!!! It is awe inspiring how humans have figured out things like physics, and logic, and space time, and all this insanely intricate shit that we can demonstrate is true. And none of it came from a jeebus or a sky daddy or a book talking about a sky daddy.
We would be farther along if there was no religion. The Arabs were the very first group to disvier elements, they even discovered light waves travel in straight lines. Then Islam rolled in and stopped all that immediately. You can see this in the periodic table of elements. The earliest discovered elements were named by Arabs, and you can see the exact moment Islam rolled in coinciding with ZERO more scientific discovery after that point. It's so obvious.
I can‘t believe how uncreative christians are with their own faith. You have a story about 2 proto humans who live in a perfect safe haven and eventually one is tempted by a serpent to disobey the ruler and then they are cast out into the world the god was building from the start for some reason I mean you could read that many kinds of ways. Like god testing them on their free will to see if they were ready for the world he was building that wasn‘t curated but messy or something. There could be so many ways to read that alone yet all he ever talks about is about how they did something wrong cause they disobeyed it‘s like a child talking about an authority figure. And the saddest part is that the figure he is so obsessed with is literally absent. It isn‘t there. It‘s just not there yet he and all the other ppl believing in it cling to that emptiness so desperately. It‘s really sad to me tbh. Like how ppl can be so brainwashed that they make their whole life about this being that won‘t answer them ever or even be there at all. Like them talking to a wall and thinking it‘s sentient based on all the signs that it isn‘t being used by them to reinforce the delusion.
Man, idk if I can make it through 3 hours of this... I'm 30 minutes in and already this guy seems incapable of grasping the fact that a person with no knowledge of right or wrong would be incapable of knowing it was wrong to disobey. This does not bode well for the rest of the discussion.
You did catch him saying something interesting, though... He asks about a 3 or 4 year old disobeying and says "They aren't born knowing right from wrong," which contradicts most Christians' beliefs on people being born with original sin.
1:15:42 ok. This is my biggest problem. It’s seems to all be about perspective with these people. But would I be wrong in saying then that’s the problem? If we can all just read it and take what we want from it and mold it to our perspective, then it’s not a perfect book that is clear in its message. Right? RIGHT?!? Ugh. And they use it as an argument! “Well that’s not how I interpret it” I don’t understand what is happening here.
All christian theology is cope!
As a polytheists hardcore monotheism and antitheism breaks my brain wish i could debate this dude
As an anti-thiest, polythiesm seems like a weird cope and monothiesm is a litmus test for critical thought.
You can totally debate jake, this is almost a year old, did you?
The trump this is funny now after the trump is jesus propaganda
The guest in question would have to be a shit "intersectionalitist" (That isn't a real thing) if he can't acknowledge that Christian theology is a privileged worldview in America by ignoring how Christianity effects contemporary politics. Intersectionality isn't an ideology it is a lens we can use to visualize the plurality of human experience, and see how difference social, economic, or political systems interact with different people. Its that simple.
There are more than plenty of people who still defend the historical events manifest destiny, which was a genocidal movement to annex the western part of North America and steal land from indigenous people, which was religiously motivated. To suggest that interactions between the past and present don't happen when it is the foundation of one's own country as we know it is just willful ignorance.
I hate to bring race into this, but it makes me wonder what the guest's attitudes would have been like if he wasn't black.
🌽🌽🌽
Regarding: 50:00 to 55:00 or so, this is the same theme as the 22 part animation series "Power Corrupts" produced, written, animated & voiced by DarlMatter2525 & his wife! Watching that series blew my mind, and if you haven't watched it I suggest that you should because it will improve your selection of examples for rhetorical advocacy for the noble cause of our anti-theism.
11:30 That isn't answering the question. Is that a dodge, or is that being too dumb to understand the question? It has to be one of those two things.
Do you even question the concept of sin?
Sin is disobeying gawd.
You weren't asked WHAT sin supposedly is, you were asked if you are capable of thinking about or questioning the CONCEPT of sin. Not questioning the definition, but the CONCEPT.
So no, is the answer, he is not capable of questioning the concept.
25.9k subscribers. Not surprised y'didn't grow much. After that debate with Destiny you really just got gaped, tbh. Glad to see this guy hasn't gotten popular, else i'd fear for the world's logic.
Thanks for the engagement! Every little bit helps push it just a little bit more in the algo.
That's about how many channels you're subbed too... odd innit?
Didn't watch it, gave no watch time.@@FrozenRosai
"Im glad your channel is irrelevant, thats why I'm here, because I personally search for irrelevant channels in my spare time?"
Hmmmm