Hey Ron, i know you probably won't see this, but I'm a father of 2 about to be 3 out here in indiana and my sons both gather up after bed-time story to watch your videos with me. Just wanted to say thank you for the memories with my boys. RSO is the best!
@@trevorsa6lack9uy That's so awesome. Those are some of the best memories I have with my dad. Thank you for doing it right, we need more dads like you.
I quit drinking recently, luckily on a whim, and have decided to get into long distance shooting. Put my money into something productive! I have hunted my whole life off and on, recently found your channel and have been learning so much from you! Inspired me to start a notebook on long distance target shooting. Cant thank you enough for the work you put into your information! Waiting to pick up my sig cross any day now. Wishing you good health and happiness!
This is one of the greatest comments ever. Stopping a bad habit and starting a good one. Please stay with it. I know I'm just a stranger, but Good Job.
Ever so informative Ron. Someday I may need this information, but in the last 45 years hunting, I don't think I've ever shot past 150 yards. Although when my Wife n I move out of the northwest, I may very well be taking longer shots. Nothing beyond 300 yards, but it's clear that with some bullets, 300 yards can bring noticeable wind drift.
For hunting it has to be a balance of flat shooting, wind resistance, adequate penetration, adequate expansion, adequate energy, adequate velocity. The most important are adequate penetration and expansion, but if you have those and put it in the wrong place, that's no good either. Sectional Density is a way overhyped metric because it's the post expansion SD that matters, and bullet construction and velocity are a larger factor in that than just the weight. BC is valuable though because it allows you to hold on to expansion velocity out to a greater distance. That said though, I'd rather sacrifice a little BC for better construction and reduce my range than sacrifice construction for more BC, and have inadeqaute penetration and expansion at all ranges.
It's a great topic. You gave a good explanation. Wind is the only non-deterministic variable with long range shooting. Please know that wind deflection at long range varies whether 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock wind direction due right of left hand rifle twist. A ballistic calculator will show the difference and it's worth noting.
Great video with lots of very useful information. I miss the days when people would go HUNT, instead of engaging in long-range shooting theatrics. I've harvested big game animals at close to 300 yards, and shot varmints further out than that, but I guess the older I get, the more I enjoy actually hunting and getting closer to animals. I still enjoy shooting at distance, but I make a concerted effort to not confuse long-range shooting with hunting.
It's my understanding that wind deflection is directly related to elapsed time to target (and cross wind force, of course). Elapsed time to target is directly affected by initial velocity and retained velocity. Retained velocity is directly related to ballistic coefficient. (Thanks for such a great show!)
Hello Ron, great podcast! I was wondering with the wind coming directly towards you, would this make your bullet slower and also change your drop chart projections? Sorry my physics education has been sometime ago and can’t quite remember 😅. Keep doing what you’re doing with these videos, thank you!
I agree with you on the long range hunting stuff. I think if you can’t get within 300yd on big game when bowhunters do it routinely, you might have some other skills to work on. But that’s just me, and I myself am a bowhunter primarily.
Very informative on BC and velocity good info. I think every hunter needs to put a little thought into the ballistics of his or her rifle and cartridge. I handload because I have found when you find something that works in your rifle you always run out of and can't find it when you need it. Even handloading we run into component issues like primers. I agree with you on ethical shooting because even if your game seems undisturbed at 500 yards they can bolt in an instant and flight time of a bullet at that range with any caliber is still several seconds. Good info Ron.
Interesting video. I hunt in eastern hardwoods. A 200 yard shot is the exception. BC is not as important, in my opinion, for such short ranges. In open country, things would be different. My rifle likes a 150 grain bullet in 30-06. Horrible BC, but tiny holes at 200 yards.
I know it's probably a "technicality", but the stabilization / barrel twist connection is purely by LENGTH, not WEIGHT of projectile. It makes a difference when you start looking/comparing "normal" bullets with monolithics. Weight for weight, monolithics will be longer, and will require more stabilization.
You make a good point about monolithic bullets needing more twist. I would argue your statement that bullet stability is based "purely" on length though. Gyroscopic stability will be greater in a larger diameter bullet when comparing bullets of similar construction and length. For example, a 300 grain Berger .338 bullet is quite long (1.8") and is stable from a 1:10" twist. But a 6mm bullet of similar construction, like the Berger 115 grain, is much shorter at 1.35" and requires a 1:7 twist. The bigger diameter means more weight around the outside, further from the center of rotation, and therefore more angular momentum. There are also subtle aspects of a bullet's geometry that affect stability outside of just length. It has to do with the distance between a bullet's center of gravity and center of pressure. A larger distance means a greater "overturning moment", or more leverage wanting to make it tumble. But generally speaking, when comparing 2 bullets of similar construction in the same caliber, a longer bullet will require a faster twist as you said.
All this is correct in theory and for long range shooters. But a a ranch owner whos hosted plenty of hunters over a long while, the ones that miss their targets or wound them most often are those obsessed with flat trajectories, long for weight fad target 6.5 calibers, and paper puncher obsessives. I shoot for a living (culling and predators), and I can't hold steady enough to even outdo the ballistics of a 308/150gn cartridge. A solution for a non-existent problem, for hunting anyway.
Given ballistic data is limited in many ways. First of all, we all agree that the quality and condition of the firearm is paramount. Second, we all agree that our first shot needs to be on mark. Generally, we want to know that our follow up shot is on it's mark and so on; dependant on how many game were shooting. That said, most people agree that an accurate shot is dependant on a dirty barrel. The hunter will hunt with and the target shooter will shoot with a dirty barrel. There's many disciplines but how many shots the firearm and cartridge and shooter group will place falls on bore condition or fouling. My most valued trophy is the mountain reedbok and my most valued hunting is the rock dossie. ✌🏻👶🏻🚬 That said, a cartridge is preferred to be at bore or slightly under or over because these are the cartridges which do not foul so easily. Overbore cartridges are good for single digits at best. Additionally, the .308 win cartridge can perform above and beyond what the data is proven to be using a modestly clean steel bore with a copper jacketed bullet but that's where the data ends. Most shooters preferred stopping there and so it is - for them.
Ron - love your videos and thanks for this one on wind drift. I'm a hunter in the SE. We generally have shorter shots, but can have 200 to 300 yard shots in large fields and power lines. We typically use standard cup & core bullets (Corelokt, W Super X, Federal PS). I may have missed something, but you didn't include these in your comparisons. Would love to see that. Thanks.
Where I live there are people that use the 50 BMG caliber rifles from a truck bed or ground mounted tripods at elk from a mile away, massive scopes, artillery sized guns, to me, its killing not hunting. One place here is locally called "Brass mountain" as people shooting Elk from so far away they look like fleas on the saddle back have mag brass strewn all over from such shots with lesser guns. This is their argument too, the 50 BMG people, "ballistic coefficient". This is not hunting to me. Granted, WY and Montana are windy but not here in the PNW where I live, its wooded with hills and mountains. I mostly kill Elk with a bow, usually, from 30 yards or less away. I have used 30 caliber guns as well from 100 or less yards away. That felt like cheating, but it fed the kids and I. Honestly, I think that MOST people have no business EVER shooting at an Elk or Deer from more than 400 yards, period. Its equivalent to shooting an arrow at 100+ yards away. To each their own and some are capable. A 308 at 400 yards is 22 inches in a 10 mile wind + 4 MOA (minimum off hand or braced) is a shot I wouldn't take. I'd creep closer. We used to call that hunting. At least I did anyway. Peace
I'm amazed at how you manage to find fault with 308 in every episode. But, you love 30-30. The key to making hits with every shot from any caliber, is knowing when not to pull the trigger.
Ron just states the true facts and figures. The 30-30 is a handy little cartridge that is plenty powerful enough for the brush carbines it comes in. True its good to know when not to fire, but then although if you never fire you will never miss, you wont eat much venison either. Practise, practise, practise.
Honestly the differences between the 6mm cartridges up to 400m is nominal for medium game situations to the point of me just deciding on what cartridges are best concerning overall weight of the hunting setup. I’ve never shot a dear past 300m. I guess I’m just a realist.
Hi Ron, It would be interesting to see the T.O.F. or "time of flight" for these bullets compared to each other at those distances. The higher B.C. allows the bullet to decelerate slower therebye getting to the target distance in less time. Therefore you can launch at a slower velocity and still have less time for wind to affect trajectory. The farther it goes, the better the advantage. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Maybe if the "3 0 late to the party" Win was put into a lever action you would like it more. Scott from NH🤠
I had a science teacher tell me Kentucky Windage was hooey. I took him to a range with a crosswind blowing about 20 M.P.H. from left to right and I proved him wrong. I then asked him how he got to be a science teacher. He drove away.
Kinda off topic. I was listening to the podcast, or maybe a video, while hiking and hunting a few days ago. Someone was saying how you had to have sooooo much money in gear to hunt these days. Well I can attest you do NOT! I was mainly hiking that day but had along one of those $100 single shot Turkish 12 gauges. 20" barrel, screw in chokes, so all you need to take a few tree rats! It has a rail for an optic if you wanna get more precise for turkey or toss a slug in and take a buck. I didn't feel like spending much money that day so I drove to the Ozark National Forest, yes I am lucky as it's 15 minutes away, in my 40mpg econobox and didn't even drive the Jeep! So it cost me all of $3 that day. Point is as long as you can find somewhere to hunt it doesn't have to cost anything more than a cheap gun and a license. Everything else is just a WANT, not a NEED. I have all the gear, rifles that cost thousands but always seem to end up out there with my cheapest stuff that I don't have to worry about. I like trying to go cheap. It's like they say, "It's a lot more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow!" Get out there with what you have and use it at it's max!
If 6 inch is a vital zone and 300 yards you are in it with a low BC . that is good enough it is hunting not long range competition shooting. And taking game past 300 is not a good idea as a true hunter.
Im one of those guys that says BC is BS. Frankly, even a simple spire point flat base projectile is good enough to make 95% of the shots the vast majority of hunters have any business attempting. You don’t really need to worry about BC until past 300 yards.
Ron, in one of your recent episodes you stated that modern firearms are mostly immune to firing pin breakage during dry firing. There is at least one exception I know of. If a modern reproduction of an old Winchester lever rifle has not had the firing pin redesigned, it is prone to breakage. I have a reproduction 92 I’ve had this happen. Seems to me Winchester made reproductions, at least some of them, have had this problem fixed.
When both use high B.C. bullets, the 28 Nosler isn’t doing too much better than the 308 Win. Also, the 308 Win has far less recoil/muzzle blast, excellent barrel life, and costs much less to shoot.
The flight time is more important higher bc bullet maintains is velocity for longer therefore it lowers the overall flight time which lessens the time the wind has to effect it
Because I handload, I tend to give availability short notice, so most of my analysis is strictly about ballistic performance. But I'll star including avialability from now on. Thanks guy!
Could you please do a video on 35 Whelen vs 338 Win Mag? I am contemplating rebarreling my 35 Whelen to a 338 Win Mag because of all the things you covered in this video and want to know if I should do it.
You would also need to replace the bolt face going from the standard 30/06 family to the belted magnum family of cartridges. Unless your consistantly shooting game beyond 350 yds I wouldn't change. As a matter of fact Id keep the classic Whelen and buy a 338 Win mag.
Bc/Drag is a squared function and velocity is a linear function. They have different variables tho. Aerodynamic drag is a squared function of speed. Meaning x^2. More speed isnt just 2x the drag its a lot more. Velocity is a linear function. Meaning 2 times the speed WILL get you there “2x” as fast. so bc could play a larger roll than velocity itself. Havent done the nonnumerical anaysis but thats my guess.
What percentage of hunters try to compensate for wind drift? I would say its quite low. And how many people even know what a 10mph wind feels like? Not many. I think its far more important to get yourself a wind meter than it is to worry about a few inches of drift on your dope chart. Practice measuring the wind so you'll know what conditions require an adjustment when you go hunting. And take your wind meter with you if there's a chance you'll be shooting beyond a couple hundred yards.
Hey Ron, or any exterior ballistics experts out there, does the bullet turn into the wind or does it turn with the wind? If the wind is blowing to the left, will the bullet turn to the left or to the right? I've read both and now i don't know what to believe
It is not so much a "turn" as a drift. If the wind is blowing left to right the bullet will strike to the right of the original aim point. All corrections for drop and drift have to be made BEFORE the bullet is fired.
It's still hard to believe Americans complain about ammo availability when living in Australia ammo for 6.5 PRC is on the shelf in amounts more than I could afford.
Yup dont need flat you need accuracy and wind reads. With the right rig and load 500-700 yrd shots arent all that difficult in right condition. Even further out not terrible in calm conditions. Thats key, know the conditions and when to shoot. Practice practice. May not call it hunting when doing long range shots but its just as skillful being a good shooter. And to me i hunt for meat and willing to up my chances by increasing my range of effectiveness.
Love your show but who uses a 150 gr round nose bullet in a 308 how about a 150 grain boat tail or spire point that would be more accurate representation
What ballistics numbers are you using that gives you 3050 fps from a 308 with a 150 grain bullet? Barnes lists 2900 fps for their 150 loads and Black Hills lists 2750 with a 150 CX. 3050fps sounds about 150 fps too fast. Are you sure this isn't 30-06 velocity? Likewise, nosler lists their 168gr 308 trophy grade load at 2750 fps, vs your chart's 2900. again, a generous 150 fps extra. Sorry for the nitpick, because it doesn't change the point being made here about ballistic coefficient and wind deflection. I suspect you didn't want to ruffle feathers since it sounds like you're preaching to the old fudd crowd about high-BC bullets, but this is exactly why Creedmoor category of cartridges is so dang appealing to new hunters and shooters in a short action format. If you compare the 143, 150, and 156 grain bullets in 6.5 they have higher BC than any of the 270, 7mm, or 308 bullets until you get into some really hefty 7mm (~175+) or 308 (~190+). And even though you start slower, that ballistic efficiency still allows sufficiently high terminal impact velocities at stupid long ranges and minimizes the wind factor, which is the biggest variable when shooting at range. You really have to pay a powder and recoil penalty to get the same kind of efficiency from the 284 and larger calibers. It's also why in the mini action category 6.5 Grendel and now 6ARC are so appealing. I feel like you specifically avoided bringing the 6 Creedmoor into the the discussion when discussing the 243 and 240 regarding ability to shoot the biggest, longest, highest BC 6mm bullets so that the fudd crowd wouldn't get their feelings hurt.
Up to 400yds none of this wind deflection matters if your hunting. What really matters is if you have the bullets, primers, or factory ammo to go boom. Today the 308win and 6.5 Creedmoor and then perhaps the 270win are the most widely available from the pandemic to present times. Those are among the most economical as well. Its all about logistics and these are maybe not the best cartridfes but they're excellent in that theyre available and within hunting distances theyre just fine. Theres no real reason for a oddball 240 weatherby or exotic Nosler or WSM cartridges that you cant even source. The 270WSM guys cant find components and ammo but the lowly 308win is like high fructose corn syrup. Its everywhere and it goes bang
All this figures is true , BUT...😉 Even with the LaupaMag you have 16" deflection at 600y , that's a gutshot or a miss on a deer . I understand that this is a comparison, BUT...😉 It's the wrong way to comparison the real world. In the real world, the hunter/shooter compensates for the wind and misses by how much the one is capable of judging it right 💡 Let's assume that you ar a good judge of wind and you can nail it down to not more than 3mph wrong you have reduced the 25" down to a 7.5" miss at 600y, and with the LaupaMag reduced it down to 4.8" at 600y that not much difference ⭐️ ,but still borderline to much to take the shot even with the LaupaMag 💡 So... it's the ability to calculate the wind that matters the most !
Sorry Ron, I think you're wrong, the most important thing about getting a bullet to a target from a rifle is the actual ability of the shooter. Practice, practice, practice and more practice will beat any marketing BS all day. Prove me wrong :)
I would like to see the load data that give 2900 fps from a 308 win shooting 168 grain bullet? Manipulating data totally out of proportions give a lot better effect than high BC? :)
Ron, I love you, your viewers and your show, but dadgummit, why did you include 600 yards in your analysis if you're discouraging (rightfully so) hunting past 400 yards? ...and you included Bergers? What the heck! They're just not hunting quality bullets compared to the monolithic, bonded and partitioned bullets. IMHO, your argument structure melds target shooting with hunting requirements too much. Perhaps a better analysis would be bore diameter and relative Sectional Density efficiency, which produces the best prospective Ballistic Coefficiency of the same bullet weights of various compared bullet diameters with the same profile. Got that?😄 Such as, relative efficiency of a 140 gn. .264/6.5mm -v- 140 gn. .284/7mm or 140 gn. .308/7.62mm. Now you can compare their relative performances in the wind with hunting requirements in mind... out to 400 yards! (what kind of hunter are you if you can't get closer than nearly a 1/4 friggin' mile?) That's why I chose to hand load and hunt Blacktails with a 260 AI and Rosies with a 7mm SAUM in 175 gn. Partitions.
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Hey Ron, i know you probably won't see this, but I'm a father of 2 about to be 3 out here in indiana and my sons both gather up after bed-time story to watch your videos with me. Just wanted to say thank you for the memories with my boys. RSO is the best!
I hope he sees your comment. Good job sir.
@shovelhead2155 thank you, my oldest shot his 22 lr at my dad's (his papi) house today.
@@trevorsa6lack9uy That's so awesome. Those are some of the best memories I have with my dad. Thank you for doing it right, we need more dads like you.
Upvote so hopefully Ron will see it
I've had 2 replies from Ron in the past. It's usually a few days after the video is released. I'm sure he will come through
I quit drinking recently, luckily on a whim, and have decided to get into long distance shooting. Put my money into something productive! I have hunted my whole life off and on, recently found your channel and have been learning so much from you! Inspired me to start a notebook on long distance target shooting. Cant thank you enough for the work you put into your information! Waiting to pick up my sig cross any day now. Wishing you good health and happiness!
This is one of the greatest comments ever. Stopping a bad habit and starting a good one. Please stay with it. I know I'm just a stranger, but Good Job.
That's great I need to quit drinking myself it's not easy
@joshuablades8851 Start with small attainable goals. 1 day, 1 hour, 1 minute at a time is how everybody get there. Praying for you.
Excellent analysis Ron. Fully agree and wish more hunters would appreciate the effect of BC.
7mm-08 always seemed like a good blend of cartridge and higher BC potential.
Yeah Ron the .284 projectile is the king from way back !
Ever so informative Ron. Someday I may need this information, but in the last 45 years hunting, I don't think I've ever shot past 150 yards. Although when my Wife n I move out of the northwest, I may very well be taking longer shots. Nothing beyond 300 yards, but it's clear that with some bullets, 300 yards can bring noticeable wind drift.
Great video! For some reason, these data-videos are really relaxing! I love them!
Nice presentation... Makes sense.
For hunting it has to be a balance of flat shooting, wind resistance, adequate penetration, adequate expansion, adequate energy, adequate velocity. The most important are adequate penetration and expansion, but if you have those and put it in the wrong place, that's no good either. Sectional Density is a way overhyped metric because it's the post expansion SD that matters, and bullet construction and velocity are a larger factor in that than just the weight. BC is valuable though because it allows you to hold on to expansion velocity out to a greater distance. That said though, I'd rather sacrifice a little BC for better construction and reduce my range than sacrifice construction for more BC, and have inadeqaute penetration and expansion at all ranges.
It's a great topic. You gave a good explanation. Wind is the only non-deterministic variable with long range shooting. Please know that wind deflection at long range varies whether 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock wind direction due right of left hand rifle twist. A ballistic calculator will show the difference and it's worth noting.
This is fascinating
Would you be able to do the same comparison for straight walls? I also noticed you didn't mention the 270. Just curious why.
Excellent video, Ron. Your comments really make good sense. You made the important points very clear. I hope they are heeded... not so sure...
Great Topic, good information, Thanks Ron.
Thanks Professor Ron, Good class this morning.
Having lived at 5,000 ft elevation, I can super relate to this video. lol
Great video with lots of very useful information. I miss the days when people would go HUNT, instead of engaging in long-range shooting theatrics. I've harvested big game animals at close to 300 yards, and shot varmints further out than that, but I guess the older I get, the more I enjoy actually hunting and getting closer to animals. I still enjoy shooting at distance, but I make a concerted effort to not confuse long-range shooting with hunting.
It's my understanding that wind deflection is directly related to elapsed time to target (and cross wind force, of course). Elapsed time to target is directly affected by initial velocity and retained velocity. Retained velocity is directly related to ballistic coefficient. (Thanks for such a great show!)
Hello Ron, great podcast! I was wondering with the wind coming directly towards you, would this make your bullet slower and also change your drop chart projections? Sorry my physics education has been sometime ago and can’t quite remember 😅. Keep doing what you’re doing with these videos, thank you!
I agree with you on the long range hunting stuff. I think if you can’t get within 300yd on big game when bowhunters do it routinely, you might have some other skills to work on. But that’s just me, and I myself am a bowhunter primarily.
Good show Mr spomer
Very informative on BC and velocity good info. I think every hunter needs to put a little thought into the ballistics of his or her rifle and cartridge. I handload because I have found when you find something that works in your rifle you always run out of and can't find it when you need it. Even handloading we run into component issues like primers. I agree with you on ethical shooting because even if your game seems undisturbed at 500 yards they can bolt in an instant and flight time of a bullet at that range with any caliber is still several seconds. Good info Ron.
Good one. Thanks Ron
Interesting video. I hunt in eastern hardwoods. A 200 yard shot is the exception. BC is not as important, in my opinion, for such short ranges. In open country, things would be different. My rifle likes a 150 grain bullet in 30-06. Horrible BC, but tiny holes at 200 yards.
Where did you get the velocity on the 243 with a 115 Berger? That is almost 300 ft./s slower than the 100 grain.
I know it's probably a "technicality", but the stabilization / barrel twist connection is purely by LENGTH, not WEIGHT of projectile. It makes a difference when you start looking/comparing "normal" bullets with monolithics. Weight for weight, monolithics will be longer, and will require more stabilization.
You make a good point about monolithic bullets needing more twist. I would argue your statement that bullet stability is based "purely" on length though. Gyroscopic stability will be greater in a larger diameter bullet when comparing bullets of similar construction and length. For example, a 300 grain Berger .338 bullet is quite long (1.8") and is stable from a 1:10" twist. But a 6mm bullet of similar construction, like the Berger 115 grain, is much shorter at 1.35" and requires a 1:7 twist. The bigger diameter means more weight around the outside, further from the center of rotation, and therefore more angular momentum. There are also subtle aspects of a bullet's geometry that affect stability outside of just length. It has to do with the distance between a bullet's center of gravity and center of pressure. A larger distance means a greater "overturning moment", or more leverage wanting to make it tumble. But generally speaking, when comparing 2 bullets of similar construction in the same caliber, a longer bullet will require a faster twist as you said.
All this is correct in theory and for long range shooters. But a a ranch owner whos hosted plenty of hunters over a long while, the ones that miss their targets or wound them most often are those obsessed with flat trajectories, long for weight fad target 6.5 calibers, and paper puncher obsessives. I shoot for a living (culling and predators), and I can't hold steady enough to even outdo the ballistics of a 308/150gn cartridge. A solution for a non-existent problem, for hunting anyway.
Given ballistic data is limited in many ways. First of all, we all agree that the quality and condition of the firearm is paramount. Second, we all agree that our first shot needs to be on mark. Generally, we want to know that our follow up shot is on it's mark and so on; dependant on how many game were shooting. That said, most people agree that an accurate shot is dependant on a dirty barrel. The hunter will hunt with and the target shooter will shoot with a dirty barrel. There's many disciplines but how many shots the firearm and cartridge and shooter group will place falls on bore condition or fouling. My most valued trophy is the mountain reedbok and my most valued hunting is the rock dossie. ✌🏻👶🏻🚬 That said, a cartridge is preferred to be at bore or slightly under or over because these are the cartridges which do not foul so easily. Overbore cartridges are good for single digits at best. Additionally, the .308 win cartridge can perform above and beyond what the data is proven to be using a modestly clean steel bore with a copper jacketed bullet but that's where the data ends. Most shooters preferred stopping there and so it is - for them.
I L❤VE your videos Ron.
Ron - love your videos and thanks for this one on wind drift. I'm a hunter in the SE. We generally have shorter shots, but can have 200 to 300 yard shots in large fields and power lines. We typically use standard cup & core bullets (Corelokt, W Super X, Federal PS). I may have missed something, but you didn't include these in your comparisons. Would love to see that. Thanks.
well pronounced Sir, and thank you
Love your content Ron.
Where I live there are people that use the 50 BMG caliber rifles from a truck bed or ground mounted tripods at elk from a mile away, massive scopes, artillery sized guns, to me, its killing not hunting. One place here is locally called "Brass mountain" as people shooting Elk from so far away they look like fleas on the saddle back have mag brass strewn all over from such shots with lesser guns. This is their argument too, the 50 BMG people, "ballistic coefficient". This is not hunting to me. Granted, WY and Montana are windy but not here in the PNW where I live, its wooded with hills and mountains. I mostly kill Elk with a bow, usually, from 30 yards or less away. I have used 30 caliber guns as well from 100 or less yards away. That felt like cheating, but it fed the kids and I. Honestly, I think that MOST people have no business EVER shooting at an Elk or Deer from more than 400 yards, period. Its equivalent to shooting an arrow at 100+ yards away. To each their own and some are capable. A 308 at 400 yards is 22 inches in a 10 mile wind + 4 MOA (minimum off hand or braced) is a shot I wouldn't take. I'd creep closer. We used to call that hunting. At least I did anyway. Peace
What 308 is 22”? Its way less than that 14-15” for a 150 gr sst at 2830 fps. My personal berger 180 gr handload at over 2700 is only 10”
I'm amazed at how you manage to find fault with 308 in every episode.
But, you love 30-30.
The key to making hits with every shot from any caliber, is knowing when not to pull the trigger.
Ron just states the true facts and figures.
The 30-30 is a handy little cartridge that is plenty powerful enough for the brush carbines it comes in.
True its good to know when not to fire, but then although if you never fire you will never miss, you wont eat much venison either. Practise, practise, practise.
Sometimes our beloved Ron forgets that the .308 was the gold standard sniper rifle caliber for a long time 😊
The bullet he got the terrible results with was a round noes bullet made for 30-30. No one is seriously loading that in a 308
@RobBremner thank you for your concern. My freezer is full, and my cup runnith over.
Great information. Well explained. 🫡
Honestly the differences between the 6mm cartridges up to 400m is nominal for medium game situations to the point of me just deciding on what cartridges are best concerning overall weight of the hunting setup. I’ve never shot a dear past 300m. I guess I’m just a realist.
Great Topic Ron Spomer ✅
Have you seen the new hornady ELD-VT?
Hi Ron, It would be interesting to see the T.O.F. or "time of flight" for these bullets compared to each other at those distances. The higher B.C. allows the bullet to decelerate slower therebye getting to the target distance in less time. Therefore you can launch at a slower velocity and still have less time for wind to affect trajectory. The farther it goes, the better the advantage. Thanks for sharing your knowledge. Maybe if the "3 0 late to the party" Win was put into a lever action you would like it more. Scott from NH🤠
Ron, what reloading manual do you recommend? Thanks.
Nice chat Ron. Berger EOL 195gr BC = .755 in a 28 Nosler equal a match made in heaven
I had a science teacher tell me Kentucky Windage was hooey. I took him to a range with a crosswind blowing about 20 M.P.H. from left to right and I proved him wrong. I then asked him how he got to be a science teacher. He drove away.
Kinda off topic. I was listening to the podcast, or maybe a video, while hiking and hunting a few days ago. Someone was saying how you had to have sooooo much money in gear to hunt these days. Well I can attest you do NOT! I was mainly hiking that day but had along one of those $100 single shot Turkish 12 gauges. 20" barrel, screw in chokes, so all you need to take a few tree rats! It has a rail for an optic if you wanna get more precise for turkey or toss a slug in and take a buck. I didn't feel like spending much money that day so I drove to the Ozark National Forest, yes I am lucky as it's 15 minutes away, in my 40mpg econobox and didn't even drive the Jeep! So it cost me all of $3 that day. Point is as long as you can find somewhere to hunt it doesn't have to cost anything more than a cheap gun and a license. Everything else is just a WANT, not a NEED. I have all the gear, rifles that cost thousands but always seem to end up out there with my cheapest stuff that I don't have to worry about. I like trying to go cheap. It's like they say, "It's a lot more fun to drive a slow car fast than to drive a fast car slow!" Get out there with what you have and use it at it's max!
If 6 inch is a vital zone and 300 yards you are in it with a low BC . that is good enough it is hunting not long range competition shooting. And taking game past 300 is not a good idea as a true hunter.
Hi Ron, please send the same exercise with a 30-06 THANK YOU
Im one of those guys that says BC is BS. Frankly, even a simple spire point flat base projectile is good enough to make 95% of the shots the vast majority of hunters have any business attempting.
You don’t really need to worry about BC until past 300 yards.
Yes ❤
Ron, in one of your recent episodes you stated that modern firearms are mostly immune to firing pin breakage during dry firing. There is at least one exception I know of. If a modern reproduction of an old Winchester lever rifle has not had the firing pin redesigned, it is prone to breakage. I have a reproduction 92 I’ve had this happen.
Seems to me Winchester made reproductions, at least some of them, have had this problem fixed.
The CZ-P07 pistol also doesn’t recommend dry firing or it can damage the roll pin can be damage.also 22 rimfire are not made to be dry fired!
S by S's...
And by Winchester made you mean Miroku?
I use spent cartridges instead of dry fire
@@WayStedYou That sounds right!
My main consideration for picking up a cartridge, for shooting at long range.
6.8Western ????
When both use high B.C. bullets, the 28 Nosler isn’t doing too much better than the 308 Win. Also, the 308 Win has far less recoil/muzzle blast, excellent barrel life, and costs much less to shoot.
The flight time is more important higher bc bullet maintains is velocity for longer therefore it lowers the overall flight time which lessens the time the wind has to effect it
Actually it's time of flight in a vacuum (no wind resistance) vs. the actual time of flight. That difference determines the wind deflection.
Whats your vector, Victor
🕵️♂️ Yes...Availability, Recoil, Bullet Construction, Bullet Weight, Bullet Frontal Area, etc...👨🏫
Because I handload, I tend to give availability short notice, so most of my analysis is strictly about ballistic performance. But I'll star including avialability from now on. Thanks guy!
🤠 There is No "Ability" Like "Avability"! 😜
@RonSpomerOutdoors wind deflection is only important in long range hunting which is immoral
@@ronlowney4700if you have enough money everything is available 🤔😳😂
@@ronlowney4700if you have enough money everything is available 🤔😳😂
Could you please do a video on 35 Whelen vs 338 Win Mag? I am contemplating rebarreling my 35 Whelen to a 338 Win Mag because of all the things you covered in this video and want to know if I should do it.
You would also need to replace the bolt face going from the standard 30/06 family to the belted magnum family of cartridges. Unless your consistantly shooting game beyond 350 yds I wouldn't change. As a matter of fact Id keep the classic Whelen and buy a 338 Win mag.
Probably Cheaper to just find a used 338 win mag if you want to try it
Bc/Drag is a squared function and velocity is a linear function. They have different variables tho.
Aerodynamic drag is a squared function of speed. Meaning x^2. More speed isnt just 2x the drag its a lot more.
Velocity is a linear function. Meaning 2 times the speed WILL get you there “2x” as fast.
so bc could play a larger roll than velocity itself. Havent done the nonnumerical anaysis but thats my guess.
257 weatherby. Get there before the wind does
257stw Beat Ol Roy to the party!
You skipped right past the 6.5 mm bullets. I guess that will be your next book.
What percentage of hunters try to compensate for wind drift? I would say its quite low. And how many people even know what a 10mph wind feels like? Not many. I think its far more important to get yourself a wind meter than it is to worry about a few inches of drift on your dope chart. Practice measuring the wind so you'll know what conditions require an adjustment when you go hunting. And take your wind meter with you if there's a chance you'll be shooting beyond a couple hundred yards.
Hey Ron, or any exterior ballistics experts out there, does the bullet turn into the wind or does it turn with the wind? If the wind is blowing to the left, will the bullet turn to the left or to the right?
I've read both and now i don't know what to believe
It is not so much a "turn" as a drift. If the wind is blowing left to right the bullet will strike to the right of the original aim point. All corrections for drop and drift have to be made BEFORE the bullet is fired.
The bullet will yaw into the wind.
So it moves with the wind but the nose turns into the wind ?
@@mikeclay2381 Yes, that's correct Mike.
It's still hard to believe Americans complain about ammo availability when living in Australia ammo for 6.5 PRC is on the shelf in amounts more than I could afford.
Yup dont need flat you need accuracy and wind reads. With the right rig and load 500-700 yrd shots arent all that difficult in right condition. Even further out not terrible in calm conditions. Thats key, know the conditions and when to shoot. Practice practice. May not call it hunting when doing long range shots but its just as skillful being a good shooter. And to me i hunt for meat and willing to up my chances by increasing my range of effectiveness.
308Win 168gr ABLR at 2900?! No ways! I have a 26" barrel and can push a 150gr TTSX 3000fps but not a 168gr!
Copper bullets are usually slower since they take up more power capacity than a lead based projectile of the same weight
Love your show but who uses a 150 gr round nose bullet in a 308 how about a 150 grain boat tail or spire point that would be more accurate representation
Ron used it as an example of how the low BC greatly increased wind deflection, not to suggest it's use for hunting.
What ballistics numbers are you using that gives you 3050 fps from a 308 with a 150 grain bullet? Barnes lists 2900 fps for their 150 loads and Black Hills lists 2750 with a 150 CX. 3050fps sounds about 150 fps too fast. Are you sure this isn't 30-06 velocity?
Likewise, nosler lists their 168gr 308 trophy grade load at 2750 fps, vs your chart's 2900. again, a generous 150 fps extra.
Sorry for the nitpick, because it doesn't change the point being made here about ballistic coefficient and wind deflection.
I suspect you didn't want to ruffle feathers since it sounds like you're preaching to the old fudd crowd about high-BC bullets, but this is exactly why Creedmoor category of cartridges is so dang appealing to new hunters and shooters in a short action format. If you compare the 143, 150, and 156 grain bullets in 6.5 they have higher BC than any of the 270, 7mm, or 308 bullets until you get into some really hefty 7mm (~175+) or 308 (~190+). And even though you start slower, that ballistic efficiency still allows sufficiently high terminal impact velocities at stupid long ranges and minimizes the wind factor, which is the biggest variable when shooting at range. You really have to pay a powder and recoil penalty to get the same kind of efficiency from the 284 and larger calibers.
It's also why in the mini action category 6.5 Grendel and now 6ARC are so appealing.
I feel like you specifically avoided bringing the 6 Creedmoor into the the discussion when discussing the 243 and 240 regarding ability to shoot the biggest, longest, highest BC 6mm bullets so that the fudd crowd wouldn't get their feelings hurt.
👍
I practice on windy days at 300 yards with my rifles to see how much it actually takes that bullet.
I have to disagree with you I’ve shot 100 grain 243 bullets all my life for over 40 years
* What's your disagreement concerning the .243?
What high BC 100gr .243 bullets have you been using for 40 years????
Up to 400yds none of this wind deflection matters if your hunting. What really matters is if you have the bullets, primers, or factory ammo to go boom. Today the 308win and 6.5 Creedmoor and then perhaps the 270win are the most widely available from the pandemic to present times. Those are among the most economical as well. Its all about logistics and these are maybe not the best cartridfes but they're excellent in that theyre available and within hunting distances theyre just fine. Theres no real reason for a oddball 240 weatherby or exotic Nosler or WSM cartridges that you cant even source. The 270WSM guys cant find components and ammo but the lowly 308win is like high fructose corn syrup. Its everywhere and it goes bang
* Yes, wind velocity does matter at longer range.
This belletristic coalescence stuff is too sleek for my brain to overcome.
All this figures is
true , BUT...😉
Even with the LaupaMag you have 16" deflection at 600y , that's a gutshot or a miss on a deer .
I understand that this is a comparison, BUT...😉
It's the wrong way to comparison the real world.
In the real world, the
hunter/shooter compensates for the wind and misses by how much the one is capable of judging it right 💡
Let's assume that you ar a good judge of wind and you can nail it down to not more than 3mph wrong you have reduced the 25" down to a 7.5" miss at 600y, and with the LaupaMag reduced it down to 4.8" at 600y that not much difference ⭐️ ,but still borderline to much to take the shot even with the LaupaMag 💡
So... it's the ability to calculate the wind that matters the most !
Nice fox hide
BS Bullet sensitivities?
I got to stay with my 7mm .
👍❤️👍❤️👍
Mr Ron a Walmart savage will shoot a 105 grain Berger
With a 1/9 twist
I think that's wrong everybody talks about waiting to fight so much. You never hear about nothing else
BC = beers consumed.
7mm is the King.
Ruger rpr 115 Berger 243 win at 3040
Sorry Ron, I think you're wrong, the most important thing about getting a bullet to a target from a rifle is the actual ability of the shooter. Practice, practice, practice and more practice will beat any marketing BS all day. Prove me wrong :)
I would like to see the load data that give 2900 fps from a 308 win shooting 168 grain bullet? Manipulating data totally out of proportions give a lot better effect than high BC? :)
Ron, I love you, your viewers and your show, but dadgummit, why did you include 600 yards in your analysis if you're discouraging (rightfully so) hunting past 400 yards? ...and you included Bergers? What the heck! They're just not hunting quality bullets compared to the monolithic, bonded and partitioned bullets. IMHO, your argument structure melds target shooting with hunting requirements too much.
Perhaps a better analysis would be bore diameter and relative Sectional Density efficiency, which produces the best prospective Ballistic Coefficiency of the same bullet weights of various compared bullet diameters with the same profile. Got that?😄 Such as, relative efficiency of a 140 gn. .264/6.5mm -v- 140 gn. .284/7mm or 140 gn. .308/7.62mm. Now you can compare their relative performances in the wind with hunting requirements in mind... out to 400 yards! (what kind of hunter are you if you can't get closer than nearly a 1/4 friggin' mile?) That's why I chose to hand load and hunt Blacktails with a 260 AI and Rosies with a 7mm SAUM in 175 gn. Partitions.
7 rem mag 7prc bby