Why The 308 Loses
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 30 янв 2024
- Subscribe to my channel: bit.ly/RonSpomerOutdoorsSubscribe
Affiliate Links:
Links:
Website: ronspomeroutdoors.com/
Facebook: / ronspomeroutdoors
Instagram: / ronspomer
Who is Ron Spomer
For 44 years I’ve had the good fortune to photograph and write about my passion - the outdoor life. Wild creatures and wild places have always stirred me - from the first flushing pheasant that frightened me out of my socks in grandpa’s cornfield to the last whitetail that dismissed me with a wag of its tail. In my attempts to connect with this natural wonder, to become an integral part of our ecosystem and capture a bit of its mystery, I’ve photographed, hiked, hunted, birded, and fished across much of this planet. I've seen the beauty that everyone should see, survived adventures that everyone should experience. I may not have climbed the highest mountains, canoed the wildest rivers, caught the largest fish or shot the biggest bucks, but I’ve tried. Perhaps you have, too. And that’s the essential thing. Being out there, an active participant in our outdoor world.
Produced by: Red 11 Media - www.red11media.com/
Disclaimer
All loading, handloading, gunsmithing, shooting and associated activities and demonstrations depicted in our videos are conducted by trained, certified, professional gun handlers, instructors, and shooters for instructional and entertainment purposes only with emphasis on safety and responsible gun handling. Always check at least 3 industry handloading manuals for handloading data, 2 or 3 online ballistic calculators for ballistic data. Do not modify any cartridge or firearm beyond what the manufacturer recommends. Do not attempt to duplicate, mimic, or replicate anything you see in our videos. Firearms, ammunition, and constituent parts can be extremely dangerous if not used safely. 
Спорт
I'm 50 and just picked up my very first 308. I own much better cartridges, but 308 rounds are a whole lot easier to come by here in Canada. Ballistics mean nothing when you have no ammo.
Well said.
The only reason I own one.
Not only that the .308 frontal diameter at 2800FPS 165 acc best and 180 nosler part at 2700 FPS for bear moose much better than 7mm,samething 7mm RM DOES NOT HIT HARDER THAN A 300WM SO FORGET SD IT GOES OUT THE WINDOW.
@@robertagusti3712 I doubt I’m the only one unsure of what your actually trying to say
You just reinforced that within reasonable hunting distances, 308 is king.at least in your comparison.
He we go again, show me on the doll where the 308 hurt you Ron lol.
😂
Now that is funny!
For real! 😅
Right in the primer pocket
🤣🤣🤣🤣
The 308 is popular simply because it’s easy to find ammo and it’s usually cheaper. The 308 still carries more energy at 300 yards. Most deer are taken around 100 yards and even at 300 the 308 has more energy ,all that info for drop and wind really only becomes important when target shooting at extended distances at ranges most hunters have no business shooting at large game anyway.
Same for my 30-06.
Antique round, but I can find the ammo and it performs better than I can.
And it is easy to find ammo and it is cheaper because of the popularity. Kind of circular reasoning, no? Its an overrated cartridge with a die hard (and obnoxious) fanbase that got big because of government use in the armed forces but in reality isnt all that great
Regarding the 300 and in part of the comment. If you were standing in the road, does it matter if you were hit by a 2 ton truck or 3 ton truck at 100 mph?
Barrels last much longer too.
@@8asw8.308 Jack of all trades, king of none.
The reason to choose a 308 over any other cartridge is that the 308 is common and versatile. The more specific your needs, the less optimal the 308 can become, but just because it's not optimal doesn't mean it's not effective. Optimization comes at a cost.
As much as I appreciate the best tool for the job, I cannot discount the best tool for the most jobs. That's what the 308 is.
You hit the nail on the head. 308 may not be the best for any one purpose, but in my opinion it's the best cartridge to have if you can have only one. You can find it in every bolt-action around, multiple semi-auto platforms, and even lever-actions. That's why it's the only rifle chambering I own, cuz I don't have the budget to maintain a stock of ammo for a dozen different rifle cartridges.
Spot on
To me the other cartridge the 308 equal maybe a little more, the 30-06. The ‘06 can do a little more than the 308. Both are great cartridges.
Well said.
There is an old saying that I think applies here: "Perfection is the enemy of good enough."
My 308win is in the stable for one reason. I can find components to load it when everything else is on back order! And a check of local gun shops confirmed it’s the deer cartridge most stocked on the shelves. To me that’s worth more than a few foot pounds of energy, or inches of bullet drop.
30 06 is still the all round work horse
Yep!! And has done far more than the 308 will ever do. 👍
My favorite.
@@FranzAntonMesmer😂😂😂
Or neck it down to 25.06 or .270 WCF@@FranzAntonMesmer
@FranzAntonMesmer Not for much longer it seems: "In April 2022, the U.S. Army selected a new rifle and light machine gun as part of the Next Generation Squad Weapon Program. They will replace 5.56 mm weapons, being chambered in 6.8×51mm Fury that has greater accuracy and range while being more lethal than 5.56×45mm NATO and 7.62×51mm NATO against emerging threats."
Ammunition availability wins every time.
Depends, many people don’t even shoot a single box of ammunition in a year through there big game rifle. For those of us who like to shoot as much as possible availability matters, for people like my dad a few boxes is a decade worth for his hunting rifle and he he’s got a “lifetime supply” for every rifle he’s got.
Seems like availability varies. I am seeing a bunch of folks writing about how hard it is to find 7mm-08, but in Michigan I have always found it in abundance, and reasonably priced. I can't say the same about .270Win though. I have had a hell of a time finding the few types that my rifle prefers. Never would have considered .270 to be an unpopular cartridge.
Ammunition availability wins every time. And this means you cannot have just one caliber.
@@jaydunbar7538Sounds a lot like my Dad. He was so frugal with ammo that it's likely he fired less than 1000 rounds of center fire rifle ammo in his lifetime. Edit: just ran the numbers. 1000 rounds divided by how long my Dad lived, came to about 13 cartridges a year average. Half a box of rifle ammo or so a year sounds plausible for an ammo tightwad.
308 all day long. I can appreciate the longer range performance of the others listed in his video, but I don't shoot that far. That and cost. I can practice with less expensive ammo in my Wilson AR10. Then switch to Hornady super performance SST, Accubonds or Barnes for hunting. The new powders and bullet designs really help "aging" calibers.
Why the .308 wins: All of the venison in my freezer
Dinner!
Nice. I say the same about my 7mm-08.
@hammerheadms 7mm-is a great ladies gun. What does your husband shoot?
@@JohnSmith-jh1iy😂
@@JohnSmith-jh1iy Funny thing is, where I live we consider the .308 to be a womens round.
Ron must love the .308 army. The more they scream about the .308, the more content Ron gets to make on it. I don't think there is a cartridge that Ron has covered more. I own .308, Ron owns .308, we all own .308 and we all agree they kill basically any animal at appropriate ranges.
@@kenleith473 that it is , +1
@mtcoiner7994
Yep, with emphasis on appropriate.
I like my 308 good deer gun little much for coyotes tho lol
@@kenleith473 Truth be told, Ken, virtually every You Tube video is produced to jack up views. A few hobbiests with more time and money than the rest of us might waste it making videos merely for self aggrandizement, but not I... I do try my best to include thoroughly researched, accurate ballistic data that viewers can study to compare and learn so my videos have some value beyond entertainment.
@@RonSpomerOutdoors I am 82 years old. I have never seen a .308 cartridge or gun for that matter.I read every .308 article you write and look forward to reading them. I am in Illinois and we are a straight wall state. I load .44 rem mag and when I had the opportunity to buy a center fire rifle, for deer I bought a CVA Scout in 44 mag because I could load my own. If I had the choice I would have bought a.308 because ammo is plentiful.
My 308 doesn’t need to worry about anything close to 1000 yards, it stopped when it hit its intended target at statistically less than 300 yds! Why are we talking about hunting ranges that most of us agree are too far for ethical shots? If you want to talk shooting steel at 1000 yds, that’s a different conversation.
I mean for hunting or even in a offensive situation no one in the right might should be engaging at anywhere near 1000 yards not saying you can’t but the only people who are pushing those distances are sports shooters and no hate to them to it
If you want to shoot at 500 yards without a scope, get a Moisin Nagant. You can't miss!
308 is like a 9mm. 9 isn’t the best cartridge but it is adequate for many things and ubiquitous. 308 clearly has competition but it is adequately capable in most situations and the cartridge is widely available commercially. For many people that ease and simplicity makes it an easy choice for a good general purpose rifle especially on a budget
Good example
They're the most popular/ common rifle and pistol cartridges for numerous reasons. It didn't just happen by chance.
my 308 is my go to rifle. Ammo options are plentiful and cost effective, and anything over 600 yards is likely beyond my ability to comfortably shoot. I have a new PRC, but I tend to go for the 308 as my all rounder as its good for 85% of shot options presented in most cases.
The 308 will never die!😂
I bought a 7mm-08 because of you Ron. Don't let me down!
I hope you reload, because off the shelf prices are awful, with slim pickins in choices, when you can find it. At least for the last several years here in Alaska.
@@tundranomad it's being choked out to promote the latest greatest when it's just as good as ever , but you need to buy a new gun every year !
Ask the animal if it noticed the difference.
@@lyellclare9365 It's too hard to hear the dead animal's opinion with Ron constantly in my ear talking about downrange energy
@@tundranomaddoesn't seem like it would be a popular Alaska cartridge. In Michigan though, I have never had a problem finding 7mm-08 in abundance and at a good price.
The most important reasons to choose a cartridge for hunting, an affordable rifle, cost and availability of proper ammo, a recoil level that allows the user to shoot accurately. As far as performance on game, bullet placement and bullet construction carry more consideration than all other factors IMO.
I’m going to guess that most fellas who own multiple rifles have at least one chambered in 308. I’m also going to guess that most of us don’t consider the 308 as our favourite cartridge… but we have that 308 for plenty of reasons… it is ultra popular despite its ballistic shortcomings because there’s more to it than just the numbers.
Wise words 👍
It's like comparing a sports car to a pickup truck, the sports car may have more capability in very specific scenarios but the pickup truck is an all around versatile and capable vehicle that can do it all.
Ten years from now, you will be able to buy 30-30, 30-06, 308, 270, 7mm Remington magnum, and a handful of others, guaranteed. All the fancy new rounds -- the ones that come out every year now, with fancy new matching rifles -- will be hard to find or re-load only. Stop the madness. Buy a good rifle in a caliber like the 308 and enjoy a lifetime of shooting while still being able to buy ammunition at your sporting goods store.
I agree. I've been buying guns and ammo for over 20 years (not a lot compared to many others) but in that time I've seen dozens of "the last caliber you'll ever need" come and go. I wised up over the years and only kept my 223, 243, 30-30, 270, and 300 win mag. I've owned a couple other guns over the years but these will always have ammo available for lower prices than the guns I use to or wanted to own.
People like you said the same thing about the new ones a century ago like the 30-06, there was new cartridges coming out back then also nothing has changed in that regard. Some stick around other don’t, you do you and the rest of us will enjoy our hobby with a room full of rifles in different cartridges new and old. Sure I could stick with my old 270, but why when so many other firearms need a loving home?
Yeah I just don’t see .22CM or .22ARC still being a thing 20yrs from now. I still remember circa 2000 all the WSM and WSSM and various new .300 calibers that one gun writer called “300 Redundants”. Only one that really survived was 270WSM.
In my neck of the ranching woods in central Montana, a lot of the old timers thought the Krag was too-much-gun. Which proves my point. Try to find factory Krag shells now. @@FranzAntonMesmer
True that. I remember the super short magnum fad, too. @@chrisgunsandguitars1403
I kept expecting you to mention that the .260 Rem is functionally identical to the 6.5 Creedmoor - and you did not disappoint. Their stats are almost identical.
The 6.5X55 is too.
Back in the early 90s, I worked up a load using 165 grain boattail HP bullets, for my Remington model 700 BDL rifle in .308 caliber. That load gave me 5 shot one-hole groups at 100 yds.
Ron..brother...might be time to talk about groupings of cartridges that are similar. The dead horses are crying by now, let them rest in peace. With all due respect. Ie...6.5 creedmoor, 7mm-08 and 308 not much difference in the same range of shooting. The power 3 to 300 yards and so on.....you get the idea i reckon
Specific applications aside. I don’t think there’s a better cartridge to learn on. It has a perceptible recoil. But, it is a manageable recoil. The ammo is relatively inexpensive and easy to find. The barrel life is excellent. The ballistics are sufficient for shooting at most local rifle ranges.
The 308 was my first non-Rimfire rifle and I learned a lot shooting it. It is not my first choice for northeastern whitetail hunting and not my first choice for long range target shooting. But, I still shoot it often for practice.
Curious, what is your 1st choice? I got into hunting and shooting a bit late at the tender age of 23, and my 1st non-rimfire rifle was a .270Win. I'm 45 now and have shot and hunted a lot since then. Magnums were fun when I was younger and in great shape, but I find that now coming into middle aged years, all that recoil just isn't as fun as it used to be. These days my .300Win Mag and .270Win don't see as much hunt time as my 7mm-08. What's your preference in the northeast? Here in Michigan even that 7mm-08 can be overkill at times because of the forested terrain.
Hey Ron, love your vidios. I have all 3 plus 243. I love being able to make all of them from surplus 7.62 NATO brass. A couple of years ago I picked up a Remington Magpul in 260 with a 1:8 twist. Problem solved, no need for the Creedmore.
So what you're saying is that the 308 outperforms within reasonable hunting distances?
Is that really what you got out of this video? To me it sounded like when he said they will all work and the choice is more to do with person bias, that he probably meant that the choice is more to person bias.
@@jaydunbar7538Obviously he has a personal bias! To argue hard for a more energy at extended ranges, but hardly mentioning it beeing lower at reasonable distances. Also not mentioning aviability? I guess it's done to raise the engagement from us in the comment section.... But yes, they all work within their limitations.
Ron, try the 130 grain Barns in the 308 @3200 fps and get back to me on what a 308 can do.
🙌👏👊
Mine shoots 125 ballistic tips at .750" , haven't chronographed em tho. Shoots 150's the same.
Getting 3125 from my load and did a number on a 200+ lb Axis and thinking that is where that one will live for a while. Have some 150 Sierra's and 168 ablr loaded as well but staying with the TTSX for now.
Took a buck this year with 130 Barnes ttsx 308 win at 180 yards it dropped in his tracks and very little meat damage
Imagine challenging a world famous outdoor sporting expert as if you were their superior. I'm sorry you're butt hurt because you're a 308 fanboy, but Ron Spomer owes you nothing.
Well the 6.5 creedmoor killed off the 260 Remington pretty much. It still hasn’t killed off the 308 so I think that kinda disproves what the public thinks about your 260 being better than your 308 lol 😂
Better and popular are different things:)
The 6.5 is awesome for what it can do, but the .308 is equally awesome in being cheaper, less prone to burning barrels, and has over half a century of proven rifles chambered in it. Tools in a tool box as my dad said.
Last time I saw some 260 ammo on the shelf was 2003...true story.
@@tacticalmattfoley shame too. I've always thought it was the most ideal deer cartridge ever made. In 2004 I wanted a new deer rifle in 260, couldn't find one so I got the 7-08. Sold it for a 30-06( big regret) but for the reason that ammo was just getting harder to find.
One thing about 308 win and 6.5 CM is, if reloading, they offer brass in small rifle primer pockets. Hard to find large rifle primers, and seem to see a lot more small rifle primers. Just something I noticed while looking at possibly reloading for it/them in future.@@Irishcream216
You're confusing Ballistic SD with Terminal SD. Once, the bullet impacts and fragments the SD changes. That's why a heavier grain/bigger caliber varmint bullet with higher SD wouldn't be adequate for the same task as a lighter grain/smaller caliber bullet of different construction. So, with a 308, you're insuring that the bigger diameter/grain stays in tact to push through and create enough damage. But with such great bullet manufactures, just choose the right bullet for the job. Basically, it comes down to slightly higher recoil/longer barrel life vs marginally better long range ballistics with less recoil/less barrel life.
The 7mm-08 is what the 308 Winchester was supposed to accomplish. But the 7mm-08 actually matches the killing power and trajectory of the 30/06.
How you ask? You can run a 160 grain 7mm bullet at the same speed in the 7mm-08 as the 30/06 runs a 180 grain bullet. The 160 grain 7mm bullet has the same sectional density as the 180 grain 308 caliber bullet.
yep, but that 20 grn heavier 30-06 fired 30 cal bullet then, tbf, hits with more mass and a larger surface area vs a 7 mm of equal SD and similar velocity. So there is a difference. But that difference then comes with a cost of more powder burnt and recoil. The question then becomes, for most mainly soft skinned deer like game hunters out there, is that extra recoil and power usage worth it?
You can 200s in the 30-06 SPRG and still have plenty of horsepower. The 7mm-08 is a fantastic cartridge, and better than the.308 Winchester. But the '06 does have more horsepower.
Ron I'm just going to day that the reason the 308 is so popular is because it's just easy to find and cheap to shoot. The 260 is pretty dead and the 7 is just not common enough. And just another note that neither the 7 or the 260 were superior 500yds and in
Great video Ron! I really enjoy when you do comparisons like this video! More of the same, please! I would also enjoy hearing some of your hunting stories! All the best to you and Betsy!!!
Your videos are always full of great knowledge. Thanks for taking the time to make these videos and keep up the awesome job on videos.
Hey Ron. Love your show. This episode vindicates my entire reasoning for buying a 6.5 creedmore. I used to hate how trendy this cartridge became. However it reminded me of an old 260 Remington I owned. I had to sell it to pay bills in my younger days, but I missed it. Thanks Tyler.
Ron, I shoot both .308 and .260. Have not noticed any difference in terminal performance between the two. Where the problem with the .260 arises is that to take advantage of the new sleeker long bullets is that you will need a long action (.30-06 length). When I had mine built I did my homework and thought I was good but a few years later longer bullets arrived and most will not fit in the short action magazine. That is where the 6.5 creed with it's shorter overall length comes into play handling the longer bullets. If I had it to do over I would have built my .260 on a long action. Really enjoy your articles and your down to earth mindset. Keep up the good work.
Prone shots are basically non-existent where I hunt in the Northeast. Almost everything is an offhand shot. The .308 and 7mm08 are ideal rounds here. No need for something bigger, flatter or more powerful.
Do people write you all the time saying the 308 is the best ever or something??? No one who knows anything about shooting says the 308 is better than many of these new cartridges from a performance standpoint. Or maybe people figured they can push your buttons. This coming from someone whose favorite cartridge is the 308, but I know it has limitations. I prefer it for other reasons…
Correct ! It’s the best larger cartridge for its availability and it will get the job done and works great in semi auto platforms that’s why
he sorta kinda addressed it at the beginning… but sorta in passing so you may have missed it. It has basically become something of a running joke between him and his viewers. Kind of like yah, he is sincere about not preferring the .308, and yah, on the internet there’s always gonna be keyboard warrior retards who don’t really know what they are talking about, and, or, people who are unable, or unwilling to catch the joke. But Spomer also always says to shoot your own preference. He offers the indisputable numbers and data, and also says that we as shooters ought shoot whatever we want, to each his own preference. But it is also a fun ongoing, running joke between him and the viewers. And it is especially even more funny when you have internetteerists who take it too serious and type a diatribe about it. Always fun to….. “trigger” them!😅
and no, people don’t push his buttons I don’t think. But he certainly pushes their buttons with his ongoing semi-series presenting cartridges with superior ballistics such as in this video while supporting individual preference. Me too, I too prefer 308 for entirely for the ubiquity. But again, some folks either can’t take a joke, or do not understand that it is all in good fun, or are just having a bad day maybe and so will go at him in the comments sometimes.
+1....my guess he is beating this dead horse because of the views it's bringing, he seems knowledgeable enough to understand
I think Ron is looking for content that will get clicks and make him money. Talking smack about the 308 by using ballistic tables will do that.
I wish we lived in an alternate universe where the 7mm-08 became the NATO round and was one of the most readily available cartridges on shelves.
Wouldn’t change anything, the same discussion would be taking place.
Well, if the Axis powers won the war, none of us would probably have guns. But for the sake of argument I think if civilians were still allowed to have firearms, then the 7mm-08 would probably never have been developed for a couple of reasons. First would be the obvious; in this hypothetical timeline, the Allies lost, so there would be no NATO and the 7.62x51mm would never have been developed. And the second, and maybe stronger reason is that the 7x57mm Mauser WAS the civilian caliber for the German public. Hard to see a world dominated by the 7mm Mauser and it's NAZI overlords giving way to 7mm-08. But thankfully reality is always asserts itself, and we still have the good old 7-08 in our civilian arsenal.
Don't worry Bob. I got you buddy, and I got where you are coming from.
@@hammerheadmsthe axis didn't take away civilians' guns...
@@Chrishelmuth1978 the Weimar Republic issued a gun registration in, I believe, 1933. After Hitler took power he used it to confiscate weapons from Jews and other, according to him, "enemies of the state". Only Nazi party members were allowed to own firearms. After he enacted Lebensraum, and conquering most of Eastern Europe in Operation Barbarossa, he stripped them of any way to fight back. Again, only party members were allowed to own weapons, so you are only half right.
Good lesson Ron! Thanks,
Thanks Ron, great vid great info, I still like my old 308 but now I want a 260 ;)
Ron I love my 260. My daughter got her first deer with it this past season. Thanks for the video
Never had a 260 Rem. Never had a 708 until the past month! It's a Tikka factory compact. Got it primarily for the wife who finally indicated she'd go hunt with me. I've had several 308s and now have 2 customs completed, both with Defiance actions, McMillan stocks, TriggerTech triggers, and Benchmark #5 cut rifled barrels 10 twist. I have yet to pick them up but that will be on my next trip.
I used to pay a lot of attention to numbers, charts, statistics.....then realized none of it mattered, even out to 600 yards. And almost all of my game are killed inside 350. In other words nearly all of the regular common bottleneck centerfire cartridges do the same thing with a well placed shot and a good bullet, and that's to put meat on the table. If you know your data, drop, etc., just dial your scope hold your wind and pull the trigger if conditions are right.
When I started handloading I ALWAYS went right to whatever was the published fastest load and I may have considered 2nd place speed to try but not much. Years and experience later, I found that the wimpiest load worked just fine depending on the bullet (btips in my case). Example: 280 Remington built with a Stiller action, McMillan stock, Shilen barrel, 150 Nosler btips, I found near benchrest accuracy with a delicate charge of VVN165. Insane accuracy but essentially lobbing the bullet like a football at game. Meh, guess what, that incredible wuss load euthanized a pile of whitetails and mule deer in CO and SD out to 300 yards and frankly, if I recall correctly every single deer dropped at the hit except one BIG bodied muley buck in CO at 200 yards in a wide open field. He did manage to trot about 20 yards. AND every single ballistic tip was a pass through.
I'm not saying any cartridge is better than another ON GAME. In my experience there's literally been no difference inside my common ranges (350 yards and under). All the superiority talk is all on paper, calculators, bla bla bla...meaningless but fun to discuss. I like a variety. Hoping to get some deer this coming weekend with cartridges I've never tried, the 708 and the 6.5 Creedmoor.
I don’t hunt, but I understand that there’s really no practical case for hunting out to 500 or 600 yards and 300 is more like it and more ethical. Anything beyond 600 yards is simply long range target shooting, which I understand the 308 does pretty well to 800 yards… but again, just target shooting. It would seem that inside 300 or 400 yards, where most hunters do their work, it is a pretty good Goldilocks cartridge and with recoil, cost availability, not to mention the energy, I think it’s hard to beat.
in my experience, it seems like cross-sectional area makes a large difference. Keep in mind that if all three (260, 7mm-08, 308) expand, the frontal area of the 308 is going to be considerably larger. I like all three short action 308-based cartridges, and would probably prefer a 260 or 7mm-08 for pronghorn, sheep, or open-country whitetail, but would certainly go with a 308 (of the three listed) for woodland whitetail and elk. I always use all-copper or copper alloy as I've always had good results and I'm always within 300 yards (usually 50-80 yards) and I agree with you, Ron, that long-range hunting is, for the most part, ridiculous and I'd go as far as to say unethical in the majority of cases where the hunter hasn't put in the time to become proficient at those ranges. ...and it's worth repeating what you always say, Ron: it's the shot placement which counts.
Chuck Hawks tries to tackle this issue of "killing power" (KPS) with the product of energy x sectional density x cross-sectional area. Here are his KPS numbers for the three cartridges:
260 (140g) KPS=31.6
7mm-08 (140g) KPS=33.6
308 (150g) KPS=34.7
Winner: 308
My preferences:
Woodland deer, feral hogs, black bear 308 or 45-70
Pronghorn 270win
Mountain sheep/goats, Caribou 300wsm
Open country deer 30-06
Elk 338rcm
Moose, Nilgai, Brown Bear 9.3x62
tsx for the forest, ttsx for open country, and hunt until you're within 250 yards
Thoroughly enjoy your videos. Many thanks.
Speed kills, surpass the elasticity of the flesh so it tears itself apart and causes the desired hemorrhaging.
@@jaydunbar7538 agreed that it is a significant factor. That's why velocity is a squared term in the KPS formula. Obviously, proper bullet construction so that disintegration doesn't occur at high velocities is critically important. Significant hydrostatic shock typically requires >2200 f/s at impact and is most pronounced at velocities >2600 f/s. At lower velocities with larger bores. blood pressure spikes/loss from large wound channels is a large factor. A properly placed 400 grain bullet going 2100 f/s will drop any land mammal (416 Rigby at ~120 yards), whereas a 6.5-300 Weatherby Mag traveling 3400 f/s isn't the best idea on, say, Cape Buffalo. In addition, maybe others have a different take, but I shoot larger calibers going 2,800 f/s much better than smaller calibers going 3,300 f/s -- slower, more controlled recoil. ...that said, all three cartridges mentioned in the video are pretty easy to shoot for most people.
How much deader does the 308 kill than the 708 or 260?
@@davidohara3727 Not much. All three are fine choices for medium-sized game and kill just as good as almost any cartridge at ranges below 200 yards with good bullets. Once you get to elk, mountain goat or perhaps caribou, I probably wouldn't use a 260 and the 308 and 7-08 are, in my opinion, on the minimum range of acceptable cartridges. For those larger game animals, I'd select a 308 in the woods or 7mm-08 in more open areas or, preferably, step up to a 30-06, 300wm, 300wsm, 7mag, 270wsm, or 270win. If ammo availability is a concern, then 30-06, 270win, 7mmRM or 300wm provided you're comfortable and accurate with the 300wm.
Frankly, a lot of this is a bit silly. Splitting hairs. For 95% of all North American hunting, you can do a lot worse than just buying a 30-06, focus on a rifle that shoots well, is durable, feeds perfectly, is a good weight, and fits you well. Then equip with a nice clear scope. With such a rifle/cartridge combo and sufficient practice, you can hunt open areas, woodlands, mountains, and you're fine for everything with the possible exception of brown bear. A similar argument can be made for 308, 270win, 7RM, or 300WM.
Mr. Ron I listen to you and appreciate your honesty and opinions but still hunt with a .308 and fill my freezer every time. 😊😊😊 and I own the other two rifles calibers you mention but.308 all day for me.
My main rifle is a 7mm-08. I have three 5.56s, a 6mm Creed, a 6.5 Creed, a 270 Win, a 7mm Rem Mag and a 44 Mag lever gun. I obviously feel there are better cartridges out there than the 308 but... if someone only had a single rifle in 308, how many things can I do that they can't do? Assuming this person isn't a dedicated bench rest competitor, not a dedicated Kodiak hunter and doesn't have thousands of prairie dogs on his property, I feel... we are basically equally ready for most of the same hunting situations just my choices are more optimized choices than his single 308.
I like to hear you speaking of the old 260 remington, very nice cartridge. I do still like the 308, can always find ammo for it and it can do what I need it to do! Keep it up Ron, you are one of my favorite channels to watch!
Excelente, excelente, excelente explicación!!!!! Muchas gracias por ese aporte tan detallado y muy útil para quienes practicamos la caza mayor!!!
Great information!!
I'm a fence sitter , I have both the 308 and the 7-08 . Love them both . If I'm in doubt I will grab the 300 win mag lol Love the podcast , keep up the good work . Keith
I have these three chamberings in hunting rifles. The one I pick up to hunt is the one that shoots most accurately. Mine is the .308. If the 708 shot better Id use it. They’re all dead deer capable out to 400yds. I think accuracy trumps the differences cited. Thank you Mr Spomer. Another great video!!
Always enjoy your presentations.
308 ammo choices are plentiful.
Getting older and am looking at 7mm-08 for less recoil.
I just got back into hunting after a 25 year absence (school mostly that led to becoming a corporate workaholic but other factors too) last Fall and I made the decision to buy a .243 from your videos as well as other content for hunting Texas Hill Country Whitetail Deer. I appreciate what you're doing and look forward to what you have to say!
Frontal area matters Ron.
I like them all.
Good video as usual. Congrats on being among the most popular for the Gundy award. For years I wanted a 270 but lately have been looking at the 7mm08 I feel like for being on the east coast it would be a better option almost an east coast 270. Hardest part about it is finding a rifle that I like that’s chambered in it. I never see them on the shelves locally and the one rifle I really liked is not even being chambered in the 7 08 anymore. Not sure why the Kimber hunter and Adirondack 7mm08 were discontinued but they both looked like a nice options, that or the Remington model 7. Maybe I’ll find a nice used one one of these days
Gunna keep my old 270 thanks Ron
Interesting topic and well presented as usual. Fun listen on a dreary kind of day with a hot cup of coffee.
Hello Mr spomer.. got a 7mm WSM and love it!!
Ron, that 308 cartridge was not made for hunting wild animals but was mainly used for the military, as in taking out humans. Of course, this is JMOH on this subject, please be advised, that I have a military 308 and I wouldn't change it for the world as in that WWII M-1 was the best in those wars, as the best rifle and caliber, to where those 308 cartridges did a pretty good in the Vietnam war, back in the day.
The problem with the M14 was the wood would swell up so much that it became impossible to take them apart and clean them in the field. That was alleviated with synthetic stocks, but the M14 was still not built for jungle fighting. The M21 was a specialized sniper rifle based on a match grade M14. It was nearly as accurate as the M40 bolt action 308 sniper rifle. But one had to keep those M21s clean. That is why the Marines stayed with the M40 as their primary sniper rifle.
Ron I enjoy your videos and knowledge of the history of cartridges and firearms as well as ballistics. I’ve used the .243, 7-08, .308, .338 Federal and .358 Winchester as well as the 6.5 CM on elk. I have not used a .260 REM on anything. They all work but in my opinion the 7-08 is as small as I like for elk. With deer it doesn’t matter. But I found it interesting that you made the opposite argument in your .308 vs .358 Win video a year or so ago. At that time you said the bigger diameter cartridge was superior. If I had to pick just one of these .308 based cartridges it would be the 7-08.
Not a contest, but simple truthful points seen in comments aid the 308 in popularity. Easy of access to reliable affordable ammunition, offered in most popular shooting systems, bias from time earned using, the ability to round up reloading components to our 30-06s. Add to the conversation the ability to load dial-up and dial-down to suit the hunt gives with less crimping issues in my experience. And the most underrated reason, so much free brass around ranges found in 308. But Ron is right on the most efficient round be others. I'll mention that to the next buck I down with 308 coupled with a heart-felt apology for not doing it with Ron's proven mathematical leader in cartridges. All seriousness, excellent video and fact filled episodes. You deserve the award for dealing with this audience lol.
THE longevity is built in to ALL milatary cartridges 30/06' 308/ 223 5.56 even 50 bmg,
lol I’m a 30-06 man myself no problem getting ammo I also love The 270wsm . I load my own ammo for them both.
Where are you getting brass for 270WSM?
I don't have any data and I am sure you're right. I am, however, cheap and not a good shot past 300 yards. Considering my cheapness and lack of long-range competence, the .308 still reigns supreme in my little world. I am sure that you're right but we as a group already have a bunch of .308 rifles and good access to lots of ammo at a good prices.
Not a huge .308 fan but at a reasonable within 300 yd range with 150 - 165 grain bullet is a fine cartridge. Out past 300 yards stretches the reasonability factor for average Joe. 600 yards is getting a bit silly. Perhaps the trajectory or wind deflection or whatever but who cares if you cannot hold steady enough to make the shot regardless?
308 is a very forgiving cartridge
Recoil
Reloading
Accuracy
The main criticism is recoil in today's light rifles with plastic stocks. That's why the 6.5 CRM rules and the 243 is still popular.
@@PassivePortfolios my rifles are wood, plastic has no character and ugly
When someone says "best all around cartridge." I think of... best availability of bullets and or components; most rifles chambered in a common man's price range; broadest range of bullet weights ; the range of yards in which most game animals are taken. It may not be THE BEST. But it IS the best ALL AROUND. Love your channel Ron !
Ron have you ever heard of the term beating a dead horse 🐴???? 🤦🏻♂️
Seems like the perfect cartridge and rifle is what works for each shooter based on what they are shooting and at what distance. I'm an old hunter and back in the day rarely saw any responsible hunter attempt game shots over 500 yards with most shots well within 300 yards. Of course, hunting ethics demand that you must have very high confidence in making a clean first shot kill or you don't shoot until conditions improve. However, if you are winging bullets at steel or paper, things change and 1000 yard terminal ballistics separate winners from losers like the 308 that performs exceptionally well even at long hunting distances.
There are a lot of " better" calibers in the ballistic world; but you just proved a lot of people's point & opinion. The fact that you are comparing these " better" calibers to the .308, is in itself is a testament of the .308's endurance & durability! You can compare the ballistics of all the rifle cartridges in current production; but there will always be guys like me that will chose the. 308, simply because we know that the .308 will do everything we ask of it! Most of us are game hunters & not long range target shooters! and a lot of us shoot the .308 because we know the history of the cartridge & we know that it is one of the cartridges that other cartridges are judged by, just as you are comparing them today & we know that it is a " brother" to the military equivalent of the 7.62 Nato cartridge that many of our Marines & other service people used in the venerable M14. ( we still appreciate your steadfast comparison of all cartridges to our beloved .308!)
I started with 22LR, 30-30,30-06, 6.5 swede, 9.3 etc, one thing is it hit a branch or a leave what's best at the end ? I decided on getting a new Tikka 308 to have ammo availability. and do hunting, yes sure I go other ammo for target, Love the swede :) Thank you for your support.
As I am one of your fans, Ron, this may seem weird, but I've always enjoyed centerfire cartridges. But recently I fell in love with the .22 wmr. It's killing power surprised me!
Mr Spomer, I'm an 85 (eighty five) year old retired military veteran of 30 years service and many tours in combat operations in Viet Nam... I've enjoyed most of your commenting and videos on various calibers but I must take exception to your down-grading the .308 caliber... I've hunted Wyo, Colo, Tex, Neb, Alaska, using various calibers I was pleased to own, however the .308 used in military operations is totally outstanding in personnel's combat operations... I don't have time to discuss the many times I came out the "winner" while a .308 was in my hands... Other combat veterans will vouch for my stance... Unless you've "been there" you don't have to down-grade a weapon that I used to take out an enemy at over 800 yards...Navy special forces
Del! Big howdy, thank you, and respect from me! I can't imagine many tours through Viet Nam combat. Brutal. Glad you made it . As for me, I flunked my physical. Couldn't hear well enough. As for down-grading the 308, I do that just to get a rise out of all our 308 lovers and to draw attention to ballistic realities. The idea is to grab their attention, then show what the 308 really does and how that compares to other cartridges. Even when I show (via the numbers) how a smaller caliber can shoot faster, flatter, with less wind deflection, and with more retained energy, that doesn't mean the 308 is no good. As many point out, the differences at sensible hunting distances usually don't amount to a mouse-sized difference at 300 yards. But we've learned something about the physical realities of projectiles in motion. Whether that's matters in the real world of shooting game or defending against enemy invaders... I doubt. But applying those ballistic lessons to other cartridges/bullets begins to yield usable data. P.S. Were I forced to join you in a jungle battle against anemy forces, I'd choose a 308 over a 5.56 every time! Thanks again, Del. I hope that if I'm so lucky as to live to 85 I'm as sharp and articulate as you! Wish I could buy you a beer, burger, coffee or steak dinner.
@@RonSpomerOutdoorsSpot and stalk is more challenging and more fun than long range shooting. I’ll stick with the proven 308 and enjoy my hunt. Some advantages to the 308, not a barrel burner, very inexpensive, very available, very little recoil, infinite reloading data. Every manufacturer makes a rifle in 308, it’s not picky… And the list goes on. Just admit it you’re doing it for Clickbait lol.
I just got my very first 308 and I’d be a liar if I said I’m not extremely impressed with it. The reason I think it’s still so popular is due to ammo availability. Even during ammo shortage times 308 ammo was always plentiful in my area
I’m here for the bait and switch title.
Love you Ron
The fact is 30 cal is so ubiquitous in factory loads you’ll be able to find an ammo for your application. That being said the .284, whether it is the 7mm-08, 280ai, 7mag will outperform its 30cal big brother (.308, 30-06, 300win). But you won’t see that benefit unless you’re handloading. So if you want to reload go .284 if you don’t want to handload go 30 cal
308 is my favorite cartridge. But I do believe the 7mm-08 and 260 are in some ways superior. However, I'm rather heavily invested in the 308, I have 4 rifles chambered for it and my wife has 1 too. With the availability and price of ammunition compared to the 7mm-08 and 260, and living on a fixed income, I can't financially justify getting rifles in new rounds at the present time, as much as I would like to.
I ran my own 7mm vs 308 experiment. While interesting I don't think it proved much. I downloaded my 7 mag with a 139 Hornady interlock to 2800 fps. I loaded the 308 with the 165 Hornady interlock at 2700 fps. I was hoping I could get two deer at the same range with the same shot. I did!!!!!!!!!!!!! But it was 50 yards and both were broadside shoulder shots. Both deer ran about 20 yards an collapsed. Both deer has nice exit wounds. So was there any difference? Yes, the 308 had significant greater internal damage. Greater frontal mass, greater weight? Who knows? Under 350 yards the 308 will kill just about anything in North America even stuff it's probably to small for.
I don't believe anyone truly thinks that the .308 is the ultimate hunting cartridge. It just does so many things well enough, including over all availability in commercial loadings, that there isn't a reason go with other loadings for most people. Obviously western and dangerous game hunters may have needs for more dynamic and powerful cartridges.
Agreed, the advantages of these other cartridges (yes creedmore too) most people talk about aren’t applicable to the vast majority of us. Sort of like driving an Indy car on the interstate, it has documented improvements compared to your daily driver but you don’t have access to a race track to put them to use.
@@ZedRedDuece I agree. Well said.
I prefer spot and stalk over long range shooting any day, it’s a lot more fun and more challenging. But then again, lazy people like Ron probably don’t like spot and stalk. Funny how he doesn’t bring up shot placement. Lol
It's Chevy, Dodge, Ford thing. All 3 get the job done. Dead is dead. You can't make something more dead. I personally own a 7mm08. But my 300 win mag is my favorite, it beats all of'em. I reload, so i don't need a store to have ammo in stock, so if you don't reload, I definitely would get the 308.
Always thoroughly enjoy your content Sir.. Always...!!
.308 Hands down...!! Just a lovely all round cartridge.
Best Regards From Zimbabwe 🇿🇼
As a 260 enthusiast you are preaching to the choir.. and Hallelujah..
Not sure why Facebook won't let me share this.. how can it violates their standards and not RUclips's... Ron.. you outlaw 😅
Cherry picking data isn't particularly helpful. How about comparing at 100 yards and in, where most game animals are actually taken?
I'm not worried about deer shooting back during WROL. So let's be clear about intended usage. For open iron I use HK91. For scoped SA I use the M1A National Match. For bolt I use the 700 Police Tactical 20" Bull. Those don't come in 7mm or .264; and even if they did Lake City doesn't produce M118LR anyway so good luck buying those rounds by the 1,000 bulk lots.
Ron, off topic question. You have some great flannel plaid shirts. What brand are those and where did you purchase them?
For me it allow me to shoot to the ranges im comfortable, the ammo is easy to come by/reload and most of all the barrel life is exceptional when compared to other cartridges.
I don't own a .308. I do have a couple 7mm-08's and a 6.5 Creedmoor. I am a fan of the .260 Remington though I've never owned one (try finding ammo for it!) Having said that, I think all of these are guns I'd use out to about 300 yards. Within that range I think the drop and deflection differences are negligible but the .308 has more energy than either of the other two. Sure the 260 has more energy at 1000 yards but if you are shooting game at that range, you won't be invited back to camp ever again.
I’ve had them all and hunted with all of them. 243, 260, 7mm 08, 308, 338 federal and 358 win. I only hunt deer and hogs out to 300-350 yards max (where I feel comfortable with shot placement, regardless of rifle ,scope, bullets, energy, or killing power ect) and I love the 7mm 08 and 338 federal compared to the others tho they all work fine with the right bullets and shot placements. I prefer Barnes TSX or TTSX in all of them, so it’s just a personal preference. Accuracy wise 260 and 308 outshine the rest as far as grouping goes and both are good hunting rounds too no doubt. The 308 is a good round, accurate, deadly and easy to find ammo for but to be honest I see no difference in taking game at my distances with any of them, dead is dead…
The 7mm -08 should have been adopted by the U.S. military not the .308.
I think a good argument can be made that the 308 would win on terminal performance due to size alone. The cross sectional area of the 308 is 36% greater than the 260. The expanded bullet would likely be larger and would have less of a tendency to fragment after hitting heavy bone. This would likely result in a larger wound channel at normal hunting ranges (
That .62mm difference rocks the ballistic jell. So it does with pulmonary tissue. I'm sticking to it!
The 6.5 CM is just a more modern version of great versatile cartridges of the past that benefits from decades of advancements and experience being orchestrated simultaneously with the proper rifle, barrel, twist rate, etc., and vastly improved modern manufacturing capabilities. It’s hard to get one that doesn’t shoot lights out and does so efficiently and effectively with little recoil. That’s why it’s so popular. It probably should’ve been the new military cartridge replacing both the 5.56 and the 308.
I picked up a model 1896 Swedish Mauser long ago. I liked it so much that I got a Howa 1500 in the same cartridge. Everybody writes about cartridges like 6.5 Bench rest magnum that "approach 6.5 Swedish Mauser in performance. So, I decided to stick with the original. I like the update on the .260 Remington.
The amount of gear and round types I can get in 308 makes it one of my favs in the safe
The one disadvantage of the 6.5 swedish is it's a longer action compared to the .260 and the 6.5 credmore. Thanks for all the excellent information.
Great Stuff Ron Luv it '' 💯💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Hi, Ron
You are the best expert I've known when it comes to cartridges!
So I have a question for you...
Whether exisi any cartridges based on unnecked 308 case
It always seems that if you want to run the high efficiency bullets. An easy rule of thumb is to double the diameter size number to the closest size of case length. 223 equals a 44-45 case. 243 equals a 48-49 case. 263 equals a 52-52 case. 277 equals a 54-55 case. 284 equals a 56-57 case. 308 equals a 60-61 case. 338 equals a 66-67 case.
May not be the ultimate, but I can find ammo anywhere and it's a third less than the other two....if you can even find them at all.
Surface area of a 308 is 27% bigger than a 6.5 bullet. This is why 308 is so much more effective than 6.5 for hunting.
Dangerous game hunters would use smaller calibers instead of 375 and bigger if your logic was correct.
For big Sambar deer here in Australia many hunters like 165g .308 and frown upon shots beyond 350m with any cartridge. 9.3x62 is a popular scrub gun.
After watching texas plinkings 1000 yard challenge ive come to the conclusion that i was lied to about how accurate the 308 is i understand that theres alot of variables with that but watching these guys bring out their big bad 308 rifles and talk about how they are gonna make the shot only to just spray the dirt around a moa target at 1000 yards made me think wait a min
Is that the guy or the rifle though,I have seen more than a few those guys at 600m range with various caliber do the same thing