If the gens spawn on the outside of the maps, using the counter argument that killers need to walk all the way there to pressure them doesn't work because killers like Blight exist. If I get Coal Tower against a Blight and the gens are all extremely unsafe on the edge of the maps, Blight etc is just going to run everyone over. But then if you do put more pallets or loops on the edges, slower killers are going to have it even worse. You could say, put less loops in the middle, but then those gens will be unsafe and going anywhere near the middle of the map would be a death sentence. Unless maybe every map has a decent main building in the centre that survivors could rely on.
I didnt say there should be loops on the edges, just line of sight blockers to stop a killer from planting in the middle and not having to move. Its also not much further than before, if you even compare the before and after its only a difference of like 8-10 meters, or a few seconds of walking. Its not going to solve all the problems in the world because i dont think it can be perfectly fixed, i just think it would improve the situation a little
@@ScottJundwhy is every “3 gen solution” i find online just “we hate m1 killers.” Imagine trying to control gens as ghostface or pig if they were all on the furthest points of the map. Imagine that on mother’s dwelling. This solution just makes m1s against a good 4 stack unwinnable
@@frost3690 Because that's apparently what you want to make every 3 gen solution. You're making an entirely separate argument which nobody else even brought up for an issue that is, frankly, unrelated.
This raises a good point that this design does create a disparity between M1 killers and Mobility killers, but I feel like that argument is a bit of a fallacy. There is always going to be a disparity between those killers simply because they're designed with such a drastic difference in kits. Chucky is a new killer and is quite good as killers come he could be ranked fairly high on a tier list, but you couldn't put him above Demo or Lary because he just doesn't have access to cross map mobility no matter how good his anti loop is, other killers just control the map AND have good anti loop. You can't balance around the extremes but you have to look at the center of the bell curve. Of course Pig and Ghost face are going to have a hard time relative to Blight, Wesker, And even Freddy they're always going to have a harder time at Macro control period that's killer design, not map design. Scott's suggesting a solution that at least tries to balance around an average killer, not Myers, and not Nurse. They're definitely exists a middle ground here, but it's not going to be easy to find because killer design can be so varied.
@@ThePowerofCutleriesyou’re right, this isn’t a nerf to 80% of the cast. “Weak killers need to 3 gen which is unfun for survivors. We’re fixing it by making it impossible”
The issue with spreading the gens out farther like that is that it makes the mid to low tier killers worst but makes blight and nurse better. A viable strat is already run to the far side if you're getting chased to waste the killers time walking back. Corrupt intervention will just become a must have perk again. Along with deadlock and other stall perks. They would need to buff pain res etc again to account for these types of changes. Jolt would then become useless unless its range was increased also.
I think if gens could spawn in pairs (~20m apart) then you could spread the gens out further than trying to keep all the gens far away from each other. If you have less space between 2 gens, then you can have more space between that pair and a third gen. So, if the killer tries to 3-gen, they would have 2 gens right next to each other, but the 3rd would be really far away.
Long term the amount of chases would decrease. Killers would get hits a lot easier and feel frustrated with having to traverse so far around the map. I think universally this change would be less fun for the survivors and killers.
@@krunga2627 sorry if I’m being daft but i don’t see how that changes it though? I am not sure to what you’re referring to when you say tile RNG, but i am assuming the way it works is that a map has a bunch of placeholder slots with rules in what it contains and the algorithm places random tiles in them that respect these singular rules, potentially also having to respect more global rules (like N jungle gym tiles max per map), so having more or less maps doesn’t really change anything in a realm besides balancing realm-specific tiles which you would individually OR chaining tiles which you would do by adjusting your generating rules, either globally or individually
Same. I think a big part of that is that DBD conceptually is a interesting mix of strategy and mechanics, but as a whole is frustrating due to how people play.
Grim Pantry is effectively a 5-gen. There's typically just the one gen that spawns by main building, survivors usually do that first, leaving the wide open areas and tightly-spawned gens left
The big issue I have with this idea of using map design as the means of solving 3 genning, is you hit none 3 genning killers as well, and it widens the gap between top tier and mid/low tier killers even more.. By spreading out the gens to the map limits, you undo the whole point of making maps smaller, which was to make less mobile killers more viable. This proposed solution slams straight into the obvious issue that Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Spirit, Xeno, and Chucky are gonna be better than everyone else because they can traverse maps quickly, and aren't hit by the longer map traversal as hard as the other killers are... sure some more balanced killers get to also thrive like Wraith, Hillbilly, and Demogorgon are OK... and even Sadako and Nightmare get by... but your killers who will struggle will be characters like Trapper, Pig, Shape, Pinhead, Huntress, Cannibal, Nemesis, Doctor and Clown. Nurse especially doesn't care about your line of sight blockers, so she retains the ability to 3 gen, whereas the other killers that in some cases only remain viable thanks to 3 gens fall even further behind. I don't know what BHVR have in mind, but just moving the gens to the map limits to handle 3 gens doesn't seem like a good solution to me.
Nurse still has to actually blink to the generator to check it, she cannot look at it from a distance which even with her adds more time she has to invest than if she is just able to look at the gen and only blinking to it when she sees someone on it.
Litteraly... litteraly anything they do just DESTROY lower tiered killers, the gap between top tier and low tier just increases with each update and its lowkey insanely frustrating
Chucky? Really? Traversing a map quickly? Chucky? Him? Really? I've never really seen him used as a traversal character, his dash isn't really a traversal tool. Yes, it's sometimes used to gain distance in chase, but I don't know anybody who uses the dash to get from one generator to another. Heck, shouldn't hillbilly be higher up in that case? His traversal ability is way higher than Chucky's. Chucky's is closer to pig's than anything else, and you don't usually see people using it for traversal. You sure you didn't add him to that list just because he's good? I mean Chucky has some of the lowest movement speed in the game, and he's not like nurse. So I'm not too sure why he's there.
its kind of crazy the point we're at right now as when it comes to 3 genning the only solution is to just hands down nerf killer, when it's really the survivors' responsibillity to MAKE SURE not to 3 gen. Granted some killers still make that infuriatingly impossible (SM, Knight, Blight, Nurse etc.), but maybe that is an indicator that there should be changes to these killers rather than nerfing the whole roster. Now in a 3 gen scenario I have to protect the gens with a limited amount of kicks/regression as Ghostface? Clown? All because terrible killer designs like SM and Knight exist? Its actually crazy lol great ideas and great video tho Scott
Absolutely agreed! Deja vu is a thing. Survivors do have the tools and some even have the knowledge NOT to have a three gen scenario by endgame, but it is so much easier to blame killers and run full meta builds.
They definitely need to be certain to target intentional 3-genning, not incidental 3-genning. It should definitely be a punishment for survs if they managed to get a poor last gen setup
I honestly feel if the game was built from the start with longer match times in mind the game would be easier to balanced Would also like to point out that removing that entire playstyle would be a bit unhealthy for the game. The devs keep removing playstyles and it keeps causing the meta to be very stale. Most people in my games run the same basic 7 perks. Nerfing shouldn't happen anymore at this stage unless it's entirely problematic. We gotta start focusing on buffing.
In no world should we stop nerfing, BHVR has the brilliant plan of buffing perks to the point where they are unhealthy with how broken they are and those buffs ARE the reason the meta is stale. No survivor in the world wants to see eruption, overcharge, or grim embrace be buffed to be as oppressive as pop, pain res and deadlock. No killer in the world wants to see another perk get the buckle up treatment and suddenly have free endurance. BHVR needs to substantially nerf the meta perks, and stop buffing perks so much that they replace the old ones
I agree with you, when I first started playing dbd, 3 genning was a very good thing for the killer to look for. And not so much taboo as it is now. But I think Scott has the right idea. If 3 gens are a taboo, let's look at bvhrs current map design for better solutions. What could improve
@@rabbidguarddog oh yeah. Definitely. Fully agree. I hope that they stop with these dumb bandaid fixes. They go "yall we heard your cries to fix this game issue so we are working on it" -literally a full year later- "it's here yall look" And it's literally them just adding in a number change. It's so weird.
What if they made a new zone similar to the Void from the recent Halloween event, just with a bonus Generator in it? Maybe make it so it only appears if at least 1 or 2 survivors are dead and only 1 more gen is required to open the gates. This would prevent killers just camping 3 particular Gens forever until they inch back an advantage but it would also mean a killer could still hold a 3 gen to punish a squad of 4 who play immersed and only do the gens on the furthest edges of the map. They'd still need to deal with the 3 gen scenario if they aren't careful but it's no longer potentially a stacked win condition for killers who play that way. If they focus too much on the 3 gens and neglect the new Void type Gen then they allow survivors to just finish up there instead. Likewise if they try to hide in the Void gen area for too long then one of the 3 gens gets finished. This would also gimp the effectiveness of super strong killers like Blight since the Void requires the same transition time as every killer to get to and the map size for that singular gen is very small.
So their idea is to punish the killer? I really hope this isn't the case and there would need to be a heavy penalty if surviors cause this to themselves
Just some of my initial thoughts: Yes, the game needs to cut map size down for various reasons such as closing the gap between faster and slower killers. Unfortunately, a new problem may arise, as this may act as a significant indirect buff to high-mobility killers more than it will close the gap between faster and slower killers. Take Blight for example: less geometric distance to travel means more efficiency out of power, which means more map presence in general. Maybe the game could apply a rule to the closest gens on the map by spawning them either inside a structure, on a platform, or behind a wall/terrain, so that killers like Blight have condensed distance to travel inside of structures, essentially creating more geometric distance where it may matter (Spending rush tokens against a bunch of walls inside the building in order to get up a flight of stairs for example.) Or at least to eliminate the ability to proxy-check gens from distance, by spawning them behind walls or inside structures so that the killer has to travel the full distance in order to physically be able to check the gen. If DBD is looking to adopt the idea of smaller map sizes across the board in regards to game balance, then maybe certain killers need their mph cut down along with that.
@@deadbydaylightdaily5455 Then the fast killers like Blight need to be nerfed to compensate. Blight is already pretty egregious to play against when they bring his strong addons, which they always do now since comp MMR. (And why wouldn't they?!)
it's obviously a small solution planned for a larger umbrealla bhvr, hopefully, will be arriving at is making maps smallers so bad killers with bad kits i.e. trapper don't have to walk for so long on a map like red forest compared to spirit. if indirect buffs to good killers is a tradeoff for indirectly low tier killers i think we should take it@@deadbydaylightdaily5455
@@deadbydaylightdaily5455Thank you for addressing this! Each time Scott discusses the reduction of map sizes, he consistently overlooks the fact that it amplifies the advantage for highly mobile killers.
Tbh there are killers which still could hold 3gen in your solution. Singularity with biopods, Demogorgon with portals, Nurse, Knight, even Xeno I think, etc. I think now they are afraid all Skull Merchant mains change to Singularity mains. So in this situation not able to kick the same gen for 20th time with overcharge, eruption and whatever they use - would be good. But I would like to have your idea in game also. For me RPD is the worst map with gens spawns, you can have RPD East Wing and only 1 gen on the east side (or vice versa), this has happened to me too many times.
The game starts with one Gen missing. When the game gets to one Gen, there will be a spawn of another Gen in a spot that breaks the potential of a three Gen. It can just have an animation of it rising out of the ground and highlighted for the first ten seconds after a spawn.
That sounds fair actually, maybe the killer gets a brief moment of time to see it before it spawns? Maybe 10-15 seconds. Or should it pop up at the same time for everyone.
I think spreading out gens is good because realms like Yamaoka Estate can have 3-gens way too close to each other. However, I don't want it spread out too much, as that would widen the gap between top-tier Killers with strong map mobility and weak Killers with poor map mobility. I'd prefer the following: slightly more spread out gens (mainly the ones that form 3-gens), a guaranteed short loop (maybe just a filler pallet) near the gen, a LoS blocker so you can't see the gen from across the map, and a passive repair speed bonus depending on how much the game has progressed (perhaps based on total repair progress) just to give Killers a reason to commit to chases and Survivors a reason to continue playing the game when trying to break a difficult 3-gen.
good idea but if survivors just do gens that are clustered, and leave the gens on the out side of the map, then it just makes the killers job neraly impossible, imagine having 3 gens that are on the oppisite sides of the map of each other with 3 survivors left. it would be gg for the killer either way.
that already happens if survivors are smart though. i refuse to believe the alternative is better where a killer just afks in a spot for 6 minutes til 1 gen left then starts playing the game. that cant be better
@@ScottJund Your idea works, but this comment is speaking some truth as well. If something like what you suggest was implemented, It wouldn't hurt if the killer was granted some minor base movement speed/action speed/miscellaneous buff upon 1 gen being left for completion.
I still stand by the best solution to 3 gens is to just make it where after a certain amount of time passes where a gen is not completed then the furthest gen will reset and highlight for all survivors for a short time maybe even with a sound queue to notify them. You can either block one of the gens that was in the 3 gen in this case preferably the one with the least progress or just leave all 3 open and have the reset generator as well making it 4 generators. This is probably the simplest system that would combat majority of 3 gen situations. Of course there will still be times where the gen that gets reset isn't very far because the 3 gen was in the middle of the map or you might just be versing a nurse or blight who can cover the distance easier. The main point of worry with this imo would be how soon this can activate because you only want it to affect the killers who are going out of their way to hold a 3 gen and to counteract survivors trying to wait it out and stealth till it activates. That means you'd probably want some sort of equation that checks the survivors' progress on all 3 gens compared against the time since the last generator was completed and how much regression has happened to the gens. Idk what the exact equation would be but something like that with maybe more variables would hopefully make the system as unproblematic as possible. Regardless I think just about any solution would be better than the current state especially with soloq teams that can't coordinate well enough to break stronger 3 gens
I think we can all agree this is a complicated, multi-factor issue where one solution is not gonna necessarily prevent or eradicate 3 gens, nor should it. Unlike face camping which had largely been decentived, 3 genning has the unique issue or strategy between both sides. A killer can plot out the 3 most unsafe gens and purposefully path around them through out the game, but survivors need to also be aware that doing the 4 safest gens first is a detriment to the end goal of escaping. Accepting that there is a form of thought/strategy in 3 gening for both survivors and killers makes this a simpler issue: Its a fundamental part of the game. You won’t be able to completely get rid of it, only tune it and nerf killers who abuse it. Assuming BHVR would ever be so bold enough to nerf Nurse and Blight, I assume the vast majority of players would not even bring up this part of the game. We can move gens further apart yes, but the endgame should be about fixing unhealthy killer gameplay abusing a core part of the game (Bubba Facecamping for example, one of the sole reasons BT was implemented as base kit)
I just hope that they are very gentle with this change. I play around defending one half of the map usually with 4 gens so that I can have enough pressure to spare that I don't have to start tunneling and killing people immediately, and if gen defense becomes significantly harder basically my only option at that point is to just start killing people as fast as possible and I think people will be a lot madder about that than they ever were with 3 gens. It's funny how people clamor for both shorter and longer matches. What do they want? Long matches where they get lots of points, or short matches where they get killed immediately because there's a time limit on gen regression?
That is how the "meta" will be if they don't proceed very carefully with this. At present if you see things going south (2/3 gens left with few not no hooks) you can either tunnel/camp or identify the 3 gen and protect that side of the map, if you remove the option to 3 gen tunneling become the only real way to salvage things.
If its like that then people are going to want 3 gen situations because it ends up making things easier for them, I mean gens that wont regress thats a free win.
@@WolfsOcean we need to stop treating survivors like powerless victims bc they are far from it when they see something to abuse they do it without any remorse I mean look at how many were doing the locker glitch and being a holes about it
Your idea sounds not too bad at first, but after thinking more about it, I feel like it has just too many negative side effects. First, I like that your community gave active feedback and pointed out the zoning potential of placing Generators right next to the edges of the map. Because that was exactly the first thing that came to my mind. Here are my points I just want to add to the discussion: a) You say that the Killer has to walk further and this time could make up for the worse position that the Survivor would be in. Let’s say the Killer has to walk 20m further on average which takes exactly 4.34 extra seconds for the default 4.6m/s Killer. It will take him a bit longer to get there but since he can easily corner a Survivor he would often get free or easier hits in return. A Survivor that is in a better position (because the gen is not right on the edge) can stay on that gen pretty long and will most likely still make it to a loop in time. Doesn’t matter which loop, EVERY loop in the game would take the average Killer more than those 4-5s already. If 5 out of the 7 gens would spawn right next to the edges EVERY Survivor would practically be forced to run Sprint Burst or Balanced Landing to reach a loop in time and avoid free hits. I mean, you could do that, but making Perks more or less mandatory is kinda bad, and it also could easily be countered with Fearmonger/Mindbreaker. The alternative for the Survivor you mentioned would be to leave the generator way earlier. Which is indeed an option. But it would only be an option if you had a clear line of sight to see the killer coming from far away. On many maps you don’t have that line of sight (and you also mentioned to add even more line of sight blockers). Against high speed Killers like Spirit or Blight or certain Stealth Killers this whole pre-running wouldn’t even be an option. Not to mention zoning Killers like Knight or Artist for example, that would love to see those edge generators. The overall easier hits would save the Killer more time than the actual 5s of extra walking distance. If Survivors would really try to avoid those free hits it would result in way less generator efficiency overall. b) What’s also completely missing in this calculation is the fact that the amount of walking distance for the Survivors would be increasing as well. If one Survivor gets hooked right into a corner of the map (because he was working on a corner gen) another Survivor that is potentially also working on another corner gen would have to walk ALL THE WAY over to his teammate. And after unhooking and healing he potentially would have to walk ALL THE WAY back to his gen (if they want to be generator efficient and also avoid both getting cornered at the same time). Another side effect: If Survivors get hooked on the edges more frequently as a result, tunneling those Survivors would be way more beneficial for the Killer. An unhooked Survivor on the edge of the map is a much easier target with not many escape options. And since there is also a generator near those edges, the Killer can still keep up at least some pressure by doing that. c) Increasing overall walking distances for the Killer will hurt Killers without proper mobility the most. And since the strongest Killers in the game are mostly the ones with the best mobility, this would ultimately just increase the gab between higher and lower tier killers. You just talked about the reasons why the devs decided to shrink most of the maps. Putting generators further to the edges is more or less the same as enlarging the maps again. d) My personal opinion is that 3-gens nowadays aren’t even that big of a general problem anymore. Since many meta perks have been nerfed, breaking 3-gens against most killers is doable without matches taking for too long. It can even be a fun challenge from time to time. The main issue I see are those few Killers that still heavily rely on playing around 3-gens or have a kit that makes it extra miserable. So I would rather work explicitly on those Killers and find specific solutions for them instead of trying to find a general solution that make the whole game more complex. I can’t see a simple fix that doesn’t have at least multiple negative side effects on the game and its balance. What we can definitely agree on, is that map design and map balancing is for sure the area with the most potential for improvements.
Solution: add a bar named "salvage" under the repair bar that also increases with repair progress but also can never be kicked away, this bar takes 240 seconds of full repair speed time to fill, once the new bar ("salavage") is full, gen repair speed is increased by 1000% for all survs on that specific gen, easy fix, no map changes, no hostage games, no gen fuckery, no kick limiting
I feel like this is a very fine line between spreading gens on a small map, and just making the map bigger. I really do think that a lot of the issues you highlighted about killers with and without mobility tools being set apart into different classes based on whether they can get between gens quickly enough is going to come back up because this is just too similar to making the map bigger. (you're effectively getting the gen-spread of a large map, but by putting it onto a small map you're not making it easier for slow killers to patrol them, you're only making it easier for /all/ killers to secure downs once they get to the corner/edge gens). I love your content scott, but I think this problem really doesn't have a solution that's this simple. I'm not sure if any of the other solutions we've heard are better though. I'm really fearful of BHVR limiting gen regression because that likely will force killers even harder into tunneling out survivors early to secure wins. As a killer main, knowing I have a good late-game hold is often one of the reasons I don't mind letting a survivor go after they make too many horrible mistakes early. I think one of the solutions I did like was the idea of making it so killers don't automatically see all the gen auras at the very start. Maybe they have to find them? (and then maybe for every gen that gets completed the aura of one random unfound gen gets revealed to them as well).... this would be a big nerf to killers across the bboard, but I think it could be compensated for in other healthier ways, importantly though (!) it would prevent killers from picking out a 3-gen at the start of the game, and it would encourage exploring more of the map in the early stages. But it would still allow killers to punish survivors who corner themselves into a 3-gen by doing gens in a bad order. (And if there was any specific 3-gens that are commonly held, like the old one in the middle of Haddon field, then while this change wouldn't necessarily fix that, it would at least highlight that those are issues with very specific maps and their gen spawns that need to be changed) (I don't think I like this idea, but technically if you really wanted to turn this into a buff, you could even just make it so the auras of a gen are hidden UNTIL whenever that gen is first worked on by any survivor --or until they pass a certain percentage, that way killers are guaranteed to see gens before they pop, and they actually get a big advantage out of knowing where survivors are in the early game).
i think that solutions involving numbers just perpetuates behaviours game design issue. this is a good opportunity for a fresh game mechanic that changes the stale formula of game progression. what if when it comes down to the last 3 gens, theres either some “limbo” period before 3 random gens get reactivated to work on again, meaning there would never be an instance with a three gen, but now theres this extra stage of the game inbetween the mid and end game? survivors have to be more aware of resource usage in different areas so that some gens could be in deadzones (but as far from the next 2 as possible) and killers cant just stall out the game as viably? sure this still creates a divide between high tier and low tier killer kits but these issues have arisen because of those kits, and this fix might push killer designs to be less skull merchant or knight like
How about a new endgame scenario? Survivors do 4 gens like normal (out of the usual 7) and that's it for gens, the remainder pop. So, instead of having to complete one of the remaining 3 gens left on the map, 3 new fuse box objectives will become active that will always spawn spread out on the map (and you'd only need to complete 1 fuse box to power the gates. It is functionally identical to a 5th gen). Quick recap: 4/7 gen count, then -> 1/3 fuse box, then -> exit gates. edit: I just realized that under some circumstances, this proposition (although it negates the 3-gen issue) would lead to slightly longer games than usual. This is due to the fact that each of the 3 fuse boxes cannot be interacted with until 4 generators have been completed, in contrast to how a final generator can be progressed in tandem with preceeding generators. A theoretical fuse box "stage" would essentially impose a hard-addition of time to a game by however quickly a fuse box can be knocked out, a limit that could've otherwise been circumvented by progressing the final and second-last gen simultaneously.
Easy solution: The more a killer regresses generators, the less powerful regression becomes, let's say at 250% gen progress drained, it regresses at 50% speed,, and perks become 50% less powrrful forr regressing, then it resets when a Killer hooks a survivor. Could even give an insentive to not tunelling by making it so if you don't tunnel, you get FASTER gen regression.
I would say after 10 ish minutes a brand new part spawns furthest away from all gens (like pinhead box but with gens) both killers and survivors can see it. After it has been used every 30 - 60 sec a nother will spawn effectivly doing gen progress that can not be reversed is any way that is very quick. The reason the killer can also see the bnp spawn is so survivors can just hide and abuse the system and actualy have to comeout of hiding to get it
i had an idea which i believe would still work : after 1 gen is left, after x amount of time if its not completed, one of the closest gen will turn on, and one of the previously repaired gen will turn off, the game would calculate the distance between the tri gen in question & the completed gens and would choose one that would be x mount of distance away from these gens
That is actually a very good idea, I cant see anything wrong with it initially. You would just have to make sure that the gens that swapped were fair and the time limit before they swap is also fair, since holding a 3 gen close to the end of a match to try and coral survivors into an area to generate pressure is fine and part of the skill of killer so if we set the time limit fairly you could still do this whilst not holding the same 3 gens for an hour.
One thought I've had was adding 2 gens to the map, but these 2 gens would be considered destroyed. To fix them you have to find parts around the map to fix the destroyed gen and then the gen can be worked on and repaired/regress like any other gen with having a reduced time to repair. 20 or 30 seconds reduced total time compared to the default gens. Would also give survivors a real 2nd objective to find parts.
I think the best way to fix 3 genning would be to remove it as a concept, and how i'd do that would be this: Change map generation from 7 gens to 9 gens. Increase the amount of gens needed to be completed by survivors from 5 to 6. Reduce the amount of time one generator takes to complete by about 15% so the gen time remains about the same.
If the gens are at the edges of the map then there should also be more pallets and tiles at the edges. It's incredibly frustrating when I get hit without being able to do anything about it just because I had to risk working on a generator that's in the middle of a dead zone.
Yea, you just mentioned another problem noone is talking about. A lot of the time most important gens to do to prevent 3gen are in dead zones or area with poor loops
i somewhat disagree. the pallet count on a lot of maps can already be high. adding more loops and pallets would make creating deadzones feel a lot harder.
I dont think thats fair Survivors choose what gens they want to repair, if you have sprint burst you can repair any gen even the unsafe ones If you have lithe you could choose a gen with a window really close, etc The unsafe gens are crucial to make the game fair and balanced for weak killers
No matter how gens are spread, anyone who comes in with the goal to 3-gen will 3-gen and that is a fact. The way I would fix it would be to only allow you to kick a specific generator an amount of times that no one would ever do besides for 3-genning, like 10-15 kicks and then you can't kick that gen anymore for the trial. The 3-gen perks are kick related, so eventually it will break if you can't kick it.
Knight can still patrol that.. the best option is to: When the 'system' detects a 3 gen it auto completes one of those and uncompletes the main building gen if the main building is the one 3-gened it just goes MISC
As someone who feels gens go too fast if they nerf the amount we can regress them or how often we can I truly think it will cause a rift between me and this game
100% this. I'll get a blatant solo queue team from time to time and gens will go at a sensible pace and I can just play for chases rather than focusing on macro strategies. When I get a 3-4 stack who are all friends on steam with around 5k+ hrs each, the gens can get done in 4 minutes if I don't focus up on my macro strategies. Stuff like tunneling, where I hook survivors in relation to my gens, where my gen spread is and what area I want to condense the survivors to, etc. This stuff is all in the cards when I'm going against a team that's in Discord and actively trying to win. Taking these strategies away from killers just makes the game a major power trip for these teams - they will literally be undefeatable against any killer that isn't a Blight/Nurse.
BHVR just spent a year doing essentially nothing but turbo nerfing gen speeds, and you're "someone who feels gens go too fast".... That's a skill issue, homie
The core problem with dbd is that the maps are balanced for survivors and killers together, rather than individually. In another world, we could analyze map landmarks as those are the chainsaw killer ramps, there's xeno's vents, small towers for ranged killers, GRASS FOR TRAPPER, and on the flip side there's the big drops for balanced landing, the "extra crunchy" area where quiet/walking perks are good, the chest and locker treasure room for the scavengers, and etc. It would make random map generation seem a lot less random because the "rules" are on display, but random map generation also follows its own rules, such as discussed in this video, and players learn it as they go. That's how you get consistent performance of killer powers and perks across all maps. It's like the devs watching people playing their game and then bouncing off of what they see happen. Yes, that is a whole lot of work, and it does mean needing to retroactively rebalance old maps, but now when the new chapter drops, the full impact of development work will speak for itself and everyone will chew on that for awhile as they look forward to map rebalancing, which will only become apparent over time anyway. Now if you can't tell I'm a very long winded person, but in my opinion the 3-gen problem is a lot less of a map spawn thing and more of a "this is how killers chase" thing. Because every single chase is the same: the target will be crouched in one spot and can leave at any moment, and will leave at predicable times. That's it. So that leads to a very geometric play on the strategic level, because the chases are linear. Bear with me for a second, imagine dbd in a high fantasy setting where everyone has magic. So now instead of sitting in a spot and occasionally pressing the spacebar for a minute or two (i.e. doin a gen), survivors have to search a (small/medium/large) area for missing parts to a generator; or they have to leave an avatar of themselves in a place to be a magical siphon for someone in trouble and lose a health state if it's destroyed, or they have to go search the map for a specific item and are only given the pacing distance (so that they would need to be frequently looking down to check the directions), and maybe even a "steal a killer trophy" like one of xeno's eggs or oni's totems (just something thematic) and it becomes capture the flag for a minute, or you have to juggle an item and if you get chased it drops, and etc. While these might seem like quests out of an RPG, they lead to "natural" opportunities for killers to do their thing. Trappers are great for targets with predictable paths, stalkers are great for distracted targets, ambushers are great for timing attacks, brawlers are great for area denial, etc. Behavior could even keep their modular development style and tie all these map specifics to each killer, like they do already with killer specific things like pig's boxes or plague's fountains. I think survivor perks should just be baked into the map because there's four of them and the killer might be able to read too much into perk selection at the beginning.
You can't just say another killer nerf because there is a massive power difference in killers cast. Nothing the developers do ever effects nurse, blight, spirit, wesker because these killers are innately strong. We have seen this throughout the years where changes effect only the lower and middle tier killers while S/A tier killers hardly get effected by these changes.
@@Mickeymouse7727 im a blight main and i can tell you that blight has not been affected whatsoever by any changes made. Maybe he lost a little bit of free pressure that some perks gave him but he is still op as hell. This is the reason that his add ons are set to be changed in the coming months. The strongest killers don't really get affected by "nerfs" cause to them they aren't really nerfs. These changes just bring their pressure a little bit down which is fine since they are really strong to begin with.
Or just add another gen to the map, making it so the killer has to control a 4-gen (good luck with that). In turn, increase the amount of time needed to complete gens, maybe by another +10 seconds per gen to compensate for the killer having another gen to monitor/track/regress/etc. Would need to be tweaked here and there to get the balancing right, but hey, nothing says there has to be only 8 total gens on the map.
Adding another gen would make survivors very strong. Alot of extra rebalancing would need to come with that change. Thats why people are trying to find solutions that dont disrupt current gameplay.
@@CR4CKSM0K3R any change made to 3-gens will disrupt the current gameplay. That's how game balance works. But in reality, that is probably the best thing to do. Will it be difficult to balance for both sides? Sure. But hey, better than having gens in the literal corners of the map, or nerfing gen stall perks into the ground, etc.
Thoughts on adding one more gen to map generation? 3 gens become 4 gens which should be a lot harder to guard. Survivors can spend less time running around the map looking for gens and lets them do the objective easier. If this tips balance too far in the direction of survivor we just increase gen times or make killer stronger in different aspects until its balanced again. Should promote healthier gameplay and remove some of the annoyance around gens.
your proposed solution has a massive issue in that it has a major effect on regular gameplay for the sake of making 3genning less effective. Placing gens at corners (currently only possible on the swamp maps) negatively affects low mobility killers, possibly incentivising them into holding a 3gen due to how much harder it becomes to defend gens in the early game. I think bhvr is more likely to just remove the immediate regression from kicking gens if not outright preventing killers from kicking gens in close proximity at 1 gen left, similar to how they block vaults to prevent infinites, and that would not affect regular gameplay that much.
@@ScottJund yes, but I'd say they're not affected nearly as much, especially in the early game when killer is at its weakest; by the same argument, 3 gens also reduce the travel distance for survivors which clearly isn't enough. Wider gen spread also indirectly nerfs several regression perks as well, like jolt hitting fewer gens and pop requiring more travel after hooking, and stuff like nowhere to hide. It has too much impact on regular gameplay and requires map changes which also make it unrealistic by bhvr's standards. I do believe your proposal might make 3genning even more necessary.
What about just removing one gen? So you bring the total amount of gens on the map down to 6, which forces a wider spread. Then you bring the amount of gens that need to be completed down to 4, and you make them take a proportionately longer amount of time to complete to make up for the lost gen. I think this is needed with the current map design philosophy of making maps smaller. The current amount of gens is, imo, a relic from when the game used to be more of a hide and seek horror game in its early days.
You know it sounds crazy, but I like it. If everyone spawns in and immediately begins their objective, the two furthest gens are likely to pop near the first down anyway. Not only does this push the killer away from using that part of the map, it also reduces interaction overall. Longer speeds and better spawns would lead to a lot more interesting interactions than currently exists on a lot of distant gens, etc.
that would fuck the balence of allmost every percentage gen perk. as less gens more time per gen makes the value of a % higher and now brand new parts 10% is worth A LOT MORE and so are pop anf surge and every killer gen regression perk thats a % and every surivor % gen progression perk
@@662mann8 Obviously that and some other gameplay aspects would have to be tweaked and rebalanced, but that's not an issue. Just a necessary part of the change.
I don't agree with smaller maps I think bigger maps is better but helping killers with being able to handle larger maps make them shine in their own way like maybe clown could just set a trap on a gen so the bottles explode like there is ways to add to the game without taking away. We can't give them a pass on being lazy by just decreasing the maps size.
Sprint Burst would be more prevalent, which would make Mind Breaker a more pickable perk. It would nerf Surge, because now even less generators are in range to be effected, so they would have to adjust that. It would kinda buff all perks which don't make you walk to the gen to regress it, so Pain Resonance, Oppression and buffed Surge. Tunneling would go up, because now players are even more split up than usual and kicking gens would be more of a time investment. It would kinda reverse the changes to make maps smaller, because now gens would kinda have the old distance again, but the gens are more dangerous to do, which makes it less worse for weaker killers.
Another problem I have with the general 3 gen idea, is a ton of killers put specific map offerings that allow them to check gens without much time waste. RPD is one of them, in one wing variant, there's 2 gens that spawn in main lobby which can be checked literally at the same time with no time sink because they're both literally wide open to each other, zero movement required to check, then there's another gen in the bottom floor hall right next to the lower floor main lobby gen, so the killer can check ALL THREE gens by just standing next to the lower lobby generator, 0 time spent. In the other variant, you have a gen in the upper floor right wing, bottom floor, main lobby, and the right wing outside area. It takes significantly more time than the other variant, BUT, it still takes merely seconds to check each gen by just looking since there's zero line of sight blockers on any of these gens except for the outside area which requires maybe 5 seconds of moving to check, so the killer has zero requirement to even walk much. This literally means 3 gens is a MAP issue, not a killer issue. I already know BHVR is gonna nerf killers to stop 3 gens, but it's so dumb, this isn't a killer problem, they shouldn't nerf killers to fix this. They need to fix the way maps are generated, and make gens harder to check, killers shouldn't be able to check gens from halfway across the map. Your argument for the corner gens is good, it's a time sink for the killer to have to go there, which makes it so every other survivor in all the other parts of the map are guaranteed safe, so the corner being unsafe for the survivor is balanced. But don't forget the part where there NEEDS to be line of sight blockers, so the killer can't just check the corner gen from mid map and know without a doubt whether they're about to waste time going there, or if they will catch a survivor in that corner. There should be risk and reward with checking far away gens, not guaranteed reward because you're able to see the survivor working on it from 30+ meters away. EDIT: DUDE I POSTED MY LINE OF SIGHT BLOCKERS THING BEFORE I SAW YOU SAID IT. I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR YEARS ON THE DBD REDDIT. I get shit on so much on the reddit for saying there NEEDS to be LOS blockers on gens that spawn too close to each other, and killers just shit on me saying I'm a trash survivor player who should learn to stop 3 genning myself rather than change maps to cater towards me.
How I'd Fix 3-gens : make it so each generator remember how much they regressed. If a gen has regressed X times its amount required to repair, for each subsequent percent it loses, a X amount is cut off of it like a brand new part. If you have literally finished a gen 2-3 times and still regress i think there is a problem and that should fix it while keeping normal games untouched
Honestly keep the gen spawns the exact same but at end game one of the available gens should be consumed by the entity and the furthest completed gen becomes available again
How to fix 3-gen: let survivors "remove" charges of a completed gen at the same speed as normal repairing. Once there are 3 gens left, survivors have the option to "de-repair" a random completed generator. Once the action starts it can't be used on a different gen anymore. Only 1 survivor can complete the task at a time, and like I said it takes just as long as repairing a full generator without relying on perks and skillchecks (in this case no perk will speed up the process). When the charges are all removed, the gen progress is now back to 0 and can be re-repaired like any other generator (skill checks and perks allowed). Also, the whole process is announced to the killer, from the start of the removal of charges all the way to lighting up the aura of the gen back again. I think this is the most balanced solution to fix 3-gen. Survivors still need to mind their own mistakes and not accidentally 3-gen, but if it happens then all the pressure goes to both parties. Survivors need to play well if they want to "waste" 1 team member's time on a completed gen, and the killer needs to step up their game and kill the survivors until they finish their job.
Maybe built in corrupt for killers but let it stay on the 3 furthest gens and let it last all game. The gens will uncover when there the only gens left. Sounds silly I know but it was just a wild idea lol
Its not map design for the most part is though. Its mostly killer design. Theres only a couple of maps that are especially problematic but the killers that allow braindead lockdown should be changed bc say you have a wraith holding a 3 gen that is on survivors to break it. But solution in the video doesnt do anything vs knight like he can just put ai on the gens without needing to check and if you have to prerun extremely early bc otherwise you give a guaranteed hit
There’s a solid amount that I disagree with this. 3-gens are a HARD fix and I think the idea of “warming up” is closer to the best, maybe something like a 60sec last gen but a 120sec first gen. But map design dedei helps. We have to remember 3 gens HAVE been fixed via map design like Lampkin lane getting some gen spawns out. Most 3 gems are pretty unlucky and I think it needs to be a mixture. Going full force on less regression like Scott thinks the devs are going to do is certainly an issue (if it was an easy fix we wouldn’t argue about this but it’s not so I’m putting my nickel in so someone else can come up with a better mixture). But here’s what I find wrong with putting gens on edges: my main issue (which may be personal bias) is I hate edge tiles. I think Z walls and occasional junk loops are fine and all that but having totems, hatch, and gens spawn are awful because they’re harder to find, to see, and you have no where to go from them. Line of sight blockers from killers also block survivors from seeing the killer, the survivor gets cornered, the middle becomes empty and useless, etc. I think a map can have dead zones with a bit of a “hanging” gen. So think of groaning storehouse where there’s an extra wing but with less pallets and shit in the way. Perhaps you can make the map a TINY bit bigger and then put a gen or up against a wall, but in reality I think most maps only have one or two real 3-gens so you don’t need much more space to make more balanced
A simple fix to 3 gens, is that survivors slowly improve their gen speed as they work on gens. Another option is that gens can only regress a total of 100%. For both solutions, slightly increasing gen time would be needed.
Have you considered something like regression protection on gen progress? I think adding a mechanic where the gen can no longer regress past a certain point after meeting a criteria would help a lot. The criteria could be based on survivors repair time, the amount/times regressed, how many times the gen reached a point etc. For example, if there was a regression protection based on the total time spent repairing that generator, then after say, 180 seconds of time spend repairing the same gen (normal time is 90 sec), the gen starts to gain a gold bar where the gen could no longer be regressed pasted. Then the survivors would eventually be able to finish the gen if the killer choose to hold it or it would prompt the killer to change tactics. Behavior could try different criteria, times, etc. but it would allow them to improve the problem now without having to look into any map or perk changes. Survivors would be less likely to give up if there was regression protection on gen progress and knew working on them mattered, and killers would be more likely to participate in more engaging gameplay as 3-gens would eventually fail.
Only if they have a survivor 3-gens themselves mechanic where that doesn't activate otherwise like every other "gens should go faster, gens should swap places, gens should never regress anymore" mechanic thrown out there, all it does is punish the killer for survivors screwing up and forcing him into that situation to defend the 3-gen that was literally handed to them. Best way I can see my thing happen is if gens are repaired so fast that a 3-gen happens, then then survivors will not get help with the 3-gen they made.
@@XenoVT I don't think its possible to differentiate between the killer creating a 3 gen and the survivors creating one when it comes to coding, especially since its the map generation that's at fault. I believe that working towards improving gameplay for any type of 3 gen is the best thing to do, it should not matter who created it and its not about 'getting an upper hand to win,' it should be about creating a more engaging and fun match. The regression protection mechanic would promote more enjoyable gameplay, shorter match times, and cause less DC's and frustration when survivors see a skull merchant, knight, pop, jolt etc. Killers can still hold 3 gens and use it to their advantage, just not for an hour. They can still use and get value out of gen regression perks, just not use them to stall the game for 30+ minutes and instead be prompted to chase someone and progress the match. Behavior can work on finding the best mechanic/ criteria and how to balance it. For example, they could base it off of total match time rather than repair time, and after 20 minutes in a match it can activate. Or do a combination off both! So after 20 minutes and 180 repair time it started the protection on that generator. Or make it kick in after 360 secs on that gen so that when the survivors have worked on it for over 4 gens worth of time, it finally starts to stick that 5th time. Regression protection is a much faster and manageable solution for behavior to implement and balance rather than waiting years for map gen to get fixed. I also think it would feel better for killers versus nerfing gen regression overall, putting a cooldown on kicking a gen, or preventing gen regression at 3 gens, etc.
@@kirachristensen8876 it honestly would not feel that good for killers at all, that's the problem, it is a good solution against killers that go straight for that playstyle but it also heavily punishes those that don't, and survivors 3-genning themselves happens much more than a killer going out of their way to do it. Unless a better incentive is given to reward a chase during a 3-gen instead of being forced to defend one, only to not be able to do much because you are also racing against the clock before survivors get their free advatange for their screw up is a miserable experience. A solution needs to happen that benefits BOTH sides and not just one. It's even worse with how generators still fly by so fast which is also one of the main issues on why survivors 3-gen themselves, they rush a gen blindly as soon as they see one because they want to hurry and escape as fast and as efficient as possible that they don't pay attention to the 3-gen they are about to give the killer. And right now the only way to have pressure in that situation is to defend the 3-gen while slugging and the match is just a miserable mess at that point until one side makes a mistake that finally ends it. I think a good solution needs to be a grace period for both sides if there is a 3-gen, a moment in the match where there HAS to be interaction between killer and survivor. Give the killer a chance to regain some pressure, but also implement your idea once the grace period is up so that survivors even if it's their own mistake won't have to worry about a drawn out 3-gen fight. But how to do something like that I sadly have no ideas at the moment.
Honestly, I tend to agree with quite a few of your points, but I feel like this is just one I hard disagree with. Killers like Blight, Nurse, or Spirit exist. They don't have to spend much time commitment to gens that are further away and can already effectively hold bigger 3-gens if they want to play like that. The only thing this fixes is it stops the weaker killers from being able to do the same while the stronger killers have to play a slightly weaker 3-gen scenario instead. I genuinely feel like just spreading out gens more is actually just the bandaid fix to this as the stronger killers (and some with higher mobility than average like xeno or chucky or singularity) can still effectively hold these 3-gens, even if they are spread out further. I feel like the solution for 3-gens isn't actually clean and simple like this. Nerfing Blight or Nurse would be good but then you can't ever make a killer with good mobility ever again because then we just get back to this point. The solution for 3-gens has to account for every possible type of killer and this solution only accounts for low mobility killers. Personally, I think a better solution would genuinely be, as goofy as it sounds, let survivors move gens. If a gen isn't popped in say 5 minutes, let survivors slowly push gens without making progress on them. Allowing them to effectively "stall" out a 3-gen scenario and get them into a better position. As an added challenge you could also say gens that are being moved in this fashion regress at 100% speed (0.25 c/s). I feel like thats a better solution that accounts for all killer variety that currently exists or can exist.
Thinking of that one match where I had a 3gen Wesker whose plan was to hinder everybody permanently. That game went on for 30 minutes because we were all too stubborn to give him the kill. He still won eventually. Dude only had like 300-400 hours lol
I think it would also require to make more creative edge-tiles. Like now the only thing you'd have on most maps would be a Z wall. I'd love to see some improvement to those tiles but the devs aren't gonna spend resources when we can get new broken killer with uncreative addons
I feel like others mentioned Blight and the response is "well Blight will always be strong so who cares, that happens now already" But the issue is not that it happens, is that this makes the gap wider. Making maps smaller was made so as you said, a Clown and a Blight wouldn't have insane differences on map patrol, but making it so now the gens are further, isn't that litteraly the same issue that big maps had, that gens were too spread out, so only high mobility killers would defend them? Like, Clown before would take 1 gen to go from corner to corner of mothers dwelling so they couldn't defend them, making it so gens are more spread out is litteraly adding the issue of big maps onto any map(aka, spreader gens) Not saying it wouldn't solve 3 genning, but it would push people to either Blight/Nurse, or to play a non mobility killer, patrol the closest 3-4 gen, and proxy-tunnel people off their area. (Which you can argue it happens now already, but it'd be making that more widespread) I feel like limiting kicks is the closest to a good measure, maybe add more LoS blockers on gens, but not just moving them away so M1 killers take half the match to reach them
i think gens spawning far outside will still screw over slower killers and make mobility killers stronger than ever. plus skull merchant/knight/singularity/demo etc can still just plop things on the corner gens to deadzone the area even more than it's already deadzoned and the distance won't matter as much after because no survivor is going to keep doing gens in corners where there's nothing and getting cornered means instant down-- meanwhile the survivors who need to come help you are in the complete opposite corner of the map. then when you're hooked, they take forever to get you half of the time (especially in solo queue), and not to mention x2, the killer is not going to leave the hook area, at least not very far, because the survivor on hook is properly secluded and it just makes sense to stay for unhook (which most killers already do even when there's no gen related incentives). maybe they should change their los spawning algorithm for the generator placements so that they can't spawn within 2 inches and line of sight from each other on the worst/smallest maps, or at least add more los blockers for those close gens. most games 3gening in general isn't a problem (speaking as a mostly survivor main), but i do think most games i get 3gened from the start it's like, extremely obvious the killer would be crazy NOT to because the gens are kissing each other and one/two chases kill the pallets and after that it's like... yeah they're going to stay there, why wouldn't they? the game doesn't incentivize them to leave and the rng gen spawns being regularly that bad on smaller maps means ofc they're going to stay in that zone.
unfortunately that's what happens with pretty much every change in this game because the gaps between the weakest and strongest things are way too big. Can't buff killer without buffing nurse and blight simultaneously, can't nerf killer without nerfing trapper. Can't buff survivor without buffing swf, can't nerf them without nerfing solo q.
Don’t always agree with Scott but the second I heard “biggest issue with dbd is map design” I was like. “Hell yes, 100%, truest statement ever. If I could leave on certain maps I would every time until they started designing them better”
They'll make it so you can't regress below a certain percentage once the gen has got to it... Example: once the gen reaches 50% you can't go below it... If the gen is at 80% you can regress It back down to 50% just not below it.
If they decide to have some cooldown on kicking or regressing, it won't fix anything. Instead of 3 genning being killer sided it will then be survivor sided, it would change nothing except change the power dynamic of 3 genning from killer to survivor sided, which is the problem with it in the first place. It benefits one side. Increasing distance of generators is the safest way to do it imo.
I'd always thought, that one fix would be, if 3 gens are too close and there is only 1 generator required left, then one of the 3 generators will activate and a further activated generator will deactivate. Though, I don't like the idea of punishing a killer for playing optimally even if it's unfun for survivors.
This is a terrible idea because it punishes all killers by making every single gen just harder to check in general even if they're not protecting a 3-gen. Its like buring down thr house just to kill a spider.
It has a benefit to them as well in that outskirts of maps are very unsafe which will very often result in a hit for the killer if they do commit to checking the gen and it has someone on it.
The survivor/survivors on that gen are more than likely dead to a decent killer. Edge of map doesn't have anything near strong enough to avoid the killer for long. Don't forget aura reading perks exist too. I do understand that for killers with bad map traversal it means alot of walking back and forth.. I don't have a solution that. I don't think survivors should suffer hour long 3 gen games either. That's the issue with creating a game with 2 sides fighting for "balance". No one is happy.
This would essentially punish people who play M1/immobile killers even more, because by spreading out the gens to the very edge corners of the map, you've effectively made the playing size of the map bigger after they've tried to reduce the size of them. Yes, it probably would kill the 3-gen strategy entirely but it would also punish killers who play fair and want to legitimately pressure generators in the intended way. It may only take a few extra seconds to make that distance, but over the course of a game, walking back and forth to multiple generators in a corner, it makes a big difference - especially to SWF's who can communicate and pre-run extremely early to mitigate the dead zone of pallets in the corners. I think people hold a 3-gen because their killer (or individual skill) is simply unable to generate enough pressure via hooks, and by doing this you're basically pigeon-holding them to the next best thing, which is probably hard tunnelling or proxy camping every hook. So what's the solution then? Give those weak killers mobility? Then we have Blight who just doesn't care if the gen is slightly more in a corner of the map. I think the solution is to just cap the amount of regression which can be applied to a singular generator, since oh boy, seeing the middle gen get popped for the 6th time and then pain res'd for the 3rd, with 5 surges in-between is incredibly miserable. But if there was let's say, a cap of 100% regression (so you can regress a gen by 100%, after the perks don't work anymore), then a 3 gen would be impossible since the killer is doomed to lose the war of attrition and is pressured to go for hooks (and chases), which is what we all want. I don't think you can fix it entirely =/
Repressed Alliance and Potential Energy could be used to unload 20% into the generator and lock it for 30 seconds, and then repeat. Potential Energy needs a buff.
my idea was to make gen times and regression speed based on how many gens are done so at the start of the match gens take 100 seconds but for every gen completed all other gens have 5 seconds shaved off at 4 gens it is 95 seconds then 3 gens left takes is 90 seconds 2 is 85 and only 1 gen left takes 80 seconds to complete, because the gens take less time to complete percentage regression perks are inherently weaker the more gens are completed and as for passive regression at 5 gens they regress at 250% the current regression but with each gen completed it is reduce d by 50% so when there is only one gen left passive regression is at 50% the current regression speed. the overall time to complete generators stays the same as live but killers have more time in the early game for set up or snowball
@@oscar3153 this idea was just about fixing 3-gens. tunnelling is its own issue but if that did end up being the strat most survivors would respond by bringing anti tunnel perks like off the record dead hard and made for this and start using toolboxes to blast the first two gens. changing anything fundamental will always shift the meta.
What if they made it so killers couldn't see the gen auras for the first 3 minutes or tie it into a base kit corrupt intervention? So that they can't see them until they down someone, the same time the gen blocking comes up.
What if they do the facecamp strategy and make the worst case scenarios much harder These are arbitrary values, but what if after 30 minutes of a match, gen speeds slowly increases to double speed over 30 minutes That way, it's not worth waiting out that long, without affecting normal matches
They hinted in the Q&A that it'll have to do with gen kicking. That said, I prefer this idea. I've never played a match longer than 25 minutes that wasn't just a complete stallout. I get the appeal, but the community clearly hates this playstyle.
I mean if the counterpoint is "killer has to walk 15 seconds to the corner to check the gen" arent we back to square 0 of large map sizes, where blight will get to the corner with no cost but clown will take an hour. Also, itll lead to more hit and run playstyle and heal slowdown builds. Since the cot er gens will be dangerous to the point of being a guaranteed hit, surviors are basically forced to heal before doing them. Yes good slowdown but i can already see the hit run legions, wraiths...
its way easier for them to address the kicking of gen multiple times than rework every single map that has 3 gens so your solution isn't good actually.. I think the best solution is to limit killer from kicking gens multiple times without down/possibly a hook.. like this directly address the issue and end discussion
I think it should b more of an aura or range thing where after the damage generator action the generator that was kicked should have an aura that decreases the amount that additional kicks affect other gens. Like if you kick shack gen on corn map and have 2 other gens in 30-45 meter range kicking another gen within 10-20 seconds then the second damage gen action would b half as strong. Then killer goes back to shack kicks that gen within 10-20 seconds regression is 25% then he walks to other gen to just keep juggling and his next kick is 10-0% regression and it’s only stops current progress. I think the numbers and range of everything would need to be changed but other than taking a lot of smaller maps out of Rotation while they get fixed would really hurt no mobile killers
The only thing that needs to happen is curated gen spawns. Currently there are *preset* genspawns but there are like 25(Random ass number) and the game randomly picks them while having some rules like gen distance. Instead there should just be like 3 preset generations where the gens ALWAYS spawn in that spot. This allows for easier map knowledge retention for new players and easier balance cause maybe they fuck up a aspawn, they just need to move one generator or a new prop to block LOS etc. Random generation will never be hand in hand with balanced.
How do I fix playing killer having the most efficient survivors on gens 24/7 literally having deadlock block two gens but when I play solo queue survivor I literally do four gens by myself while my other three teammates don’t touch ONE LITERALLY ONE the entire game 😂
I don't see 3 genning as the biggest issue, my issue is that gens are too much of the focus of objective for there to be other things the killer would want to do to slow down the game (besides being a good chase killer that can down people somewhat reliably). But as the Otzdarva video kinda pointed out, the devs don't have ambition for changing the core game, so I guess doing a simple solution is probably what they would do.
it would be simpler to limit the total amount of regression possible on a generator (like BNP does for the first 10%) when the survivors only need to do 1 generator. or disable regression entirely when 4 gens are completed. I fail to see how that would be worse then redesigning the gen spawns to punish killers without mobility while also dead zoning every survivor working on gens
Doesn’t this solution lead to your least favorite thing about blood lodge? Wouldn’t the new best strategy be split up to the corners of the map? Are all the maps significantly smaller that that doesn’t just crush over 60% of the killer roster?
I can't tell from all the complaining from all these youtubers lately But I've been feeling the exact same way. Behavior constantly doing what people ask for and then they say behavior isn't listening!
how about making a system where there are 3 designated "last gen" in which 3 gens are blocked (or dont exist) and then when 4 gens are repaired, then they get unblocked and can start to be repaired as normal, there would be a decent distance between them so it can't get patrolled for a 3 gen (boring) and kinda forces the killer to commit to chase someone or think of some new strategies. this would be my take on the subject, may be terrible lol haven't played with my brain turned on in like 8 months edit: this is very similar to corrupt intervention just stronger lol. edit 2: maybe it'll be better if the "last gens" are different to the 7 normal gens.
I dont think 3gening is an issue. Only a few killers can do it. Skillmerchant completly changed.soo maybe knight and hag and few others... But none of them can make hour long games. 3gening is survivors fault not planing out where to do gens. Dont butcher their skillceiling further. Also if survs can get op tiles,then killers should have a little bit closer gens.
maybe they could change the number of generators required to complete to 3 and just extend the completion time on them, then we would have 5 spread out gens.
I think an easier way to fix it is, when it gets to one gen left and the killer has a 3 gen, after kicking 1 gen like 5 or 8 times, that gen swaps place with the one farthest away from it, so that gen that the killer was kicking becomes "completed" and the farthest away is now avaiable to be worked on. simple.
I agree with map redesign for gen placements cause I will absolutely guard three gens on autohaven wreckers. Otherwise I run the risk of literally losing the whole game because most survivors know to do the gen in the middle and distribute gens so that you’re left with the last 3 gens being across the ENTIRE map
Truthfully they need to target 3 genning specifically that doesnt target normal gameplay, or effect M1 killers. This might not work but maybe something like all three generators are connected but progress ar 33% speed, but it makes it to where since they cant be at all three at the same time you can always progress the generators somewhere, and also when you get to the 3 generator scenario they all collect the average of the three gens as well so you cant cheese one to be at 99 either,
What if you made it so that gens start off slower to do but then get faster with each one being done. So maybe the first one is 30% slower, then they get faster to do by 15% for each one done? That way the last one is 30% faster which makes the 3-gen a lot harder to hold. Mainly recommending something like this since it's just a numbers change and would be easy to implement. Not sure what other problems may arise from this, curious to see what other opinions are on a change like this.
I mean, that's not "just a number change". There is no mechanic in the game where gen repair speed is altered depending on the number of gens left. That code will have to to built out. But the idea, I think, is better than Scott's
If gens spawn in corners, and running a killer immediately after leaving one such gen is far more difficult, then the optimal survivor play is to leave the gen super early, to mitigate risk. This is obviously a good strat atm as well, but if this becomes more of a necessity due to gen placement, I'd be worried that the meta will gravitate away from chases and more towards sneaking up on survivors / hiding from killers. Perhaps if decent tiles could be found nearby these gens, it would make this less of an issue but I suspect that we're still going to struggle to find a balancing point between killer effort and survivor survivability where neither a stealth meta nor a 3-gen meta is most viable. Either a survivor is limited on options, in which case the meta will favour stealth on both sides, or a survivor has too many options and the killers will be unable to justify travelling between gens. Perhaps there is a perfect middle ground but it feels like it will end up being reminiscent of the current meta where both stealth and 3-gens are reasonably viable. I guess we're really looking for a golden ratio between chase time and killer travel time, which is going to be difficult to find without one meta being particularly dominant.
In terms of game fun, rather than balance, I think it’ll cut down a lot on fun chases, even though it would probably be more balanced. I’d rather have 3-gens and lose than have a technically balanced game that you don’t actually get to use the main mechanics
This solution makes nurse,blight, and spirit even more necessary and makes m1 killers pointless. Gen spawns in corner>sprint burst pre run and the killer has to commit to losing gens.
BHVR: we hear you loud and clear, for that reason all feng min's cosmetic's will be 5% off next week
If the gens spawn on the outside of the maps, using the counter argument that killers need to walk all the way there to pressure them doesn't work because killers like Blight exist. If I get Coal Tower against a Blight and the gens are all extremely unsafe on the edge of the maps, Blight etc is just going to run everyone over. But then if you do put more pallets or loops on the edges, slower killers are going to have it even worse. You could say, put less loops in the middle, but then those gens will be unsafe and going anywhere near the middle of the map would be a death sentence. Unless maybe every map has a decent main building in the centre that survivors could rely on.
I didnt say there should be loops on the edges, just line of sight blockers to stop a killer from planting in the middle and not having to move. Its also not much further than before, if you even compare the before and after its only a difference of like 8-10 meters, or a few seconds of walking. Its not going to solve all the problems in the world because i dont think it can be perfectly fixed, i just think it would improve the situation a little
@@ScottJundwhy is every “3 gen solution” i find online just “we hate m1 killers.” Imagine trying to control gens as ghostface or pig if they were all on the furthest points of the map. Imagine that on mother’s dwelling. This solution just makes m1s against a good 4 stack unwinnable
@@frost3690
Because that's apparently what you want to make every 3 gen solution. You're making an entirely separate argument which nobody else even brought up for an issue that is, frankly, unrelated.
This raises a good point that this design does create a disparity between M1 killers and Mobility killers, but I feel like that argument is a bit of a fallacy. There is always going to be a disparity between those killers simply because they're designed with such a drastic difference in kits. Chucky is a new killer and is quite good as killers come he could be ranked fairly high on a tier list, but you couldn't put him above Demo or Lary because he just doesn't have access to cross map mobility no matter how good his anti loop is, other killers just control the map AND have good anti loop. You can't balance around the extremes but you have to look at the center of the bell curve.
Of course Pig and Ghost face are going to have a hard time relative to Blight, Wesker, And even Freddy they're always going to have a harder time at Macro control period that's killer design, not map design.
Scott's suggesting a solution that at least tries to balance around an average killer, not Myers, and not Nurse. They're definitely exists a middle ground here, but it's not going to be easy to find because killer design can be so varied.
@@ThePowerofCutleriesyou’re right, this isn’t a nerf to 80% of the cast. “Weak killers need to 3 gen which is unfun for survivors. We’re fixing it by making it impossible”
The issue with spreading the gens out farther like that is that it makes the mid to low tier killers worst but makes blight and nurse better. A viable strat is already run to the far side if you're getting chased to waste the killers time walking back. Corrupt intervention will just become a must have perk again. Along with deadlock and other stall perks. They would need to buff pain res etc again to account for these types of changes. Jolt would then become useless unless its range was increased also.
I think if gens could spawn in pairs (~20m apart) then you could spread the gens out further than trying to keep all the gens far away from each other. If you have less space between 2 gens, then you can have more space between that pair and a third gen. So, if the killer tries to 3-gen, they would have 2 gens right next to each other, but the 3rd would be really far away.
Long term the amount of chases would decrease. Killers would get hits a lot easier and feel frustrated with having to traverse so far around the map. I think universally this change would be less fun for the survivors and killers.
Agreed. I think it introduces or exacerbates too many problems to solve one problem.
I wish there were only 1 or 2 maps per realm, so each map can actually be designed well to avoid 3 gens.
BHVR are fucking lazy and will take the easiest solution. Like changing the number of kicks you can make.
How would having less map per realm change how well they are designed?
@@SqueletteCoolGLess map variants means less RNG for tiles and its easier to balance maps that way.
"Best we can do is 5 more Badhams." -BHVR, probably
@@krunga2627 sorry if I’m being daft but i don’t see how that changes it though? I am not sure to what you’re referring to when you say tile RNG, but i am assuming the way it works is that a map has a bunch of placeholder slots with rules in what it contains and the algorithm places random tiles in them that respect these singular rules, potentially also having to respect more global rules (like N jungle gym tiles max per map), so having more or less maps doesn’t really change anything in a realm besides balancing realm-specific tiles which you would individually OR chaining tiles which you would do by adjusting your generating rules, either globally or individually
Its crazy how I stopped playing this game years ago now and I still just enjoy hearing Scott talk about it
Proof that talking about DbD is more fun than playing DbD
Same, I haven't played since like 2019, it's just nice to hear a nerdy guy rant on something niche he cares about.
Same, I miss his dark souls stuff.
Same. I think a big part of that is that DBD conceptually is a interesting mix of strategy and mechanics, but as a whole is frustrating due to how people play.
Grim Pantry is effectively a 5-gen. There's typically just the one gen that spawns by main building, survivors usually do that first, leaving the wide open areas and tightly-spawned gens left
Rpd is worst
The big issue I have with this idea of using map design as the means of solving 3 genning, is you hit none 3 genning killers as well, and it widens the gap between top tier and mid/low tier killers even more.. By spreading out the gens to the map limits, you undo the whole point of making maps smaller, which was to make less mobile killers more viable.
This proposed solution slams straight into the obvious issue that Nurse, Blight, Wesker, Spirit, Xeno, and Chucky are gonna be better than everyone else because they can traverse maps quickly, and aren't hit by the longer map traversal as hard as the other killers are... sure some more balanced killers get to also thrive like Wraith, Hillbilly, and Demogorgon are OK... and even Sadako and Nightmare get by... but your killers who will struggle will be characters like Trapper, Pig, Shape, Pinhead, Huntress, Cannibal, Nemesis, Doctor and Clown.
Nurse especially doesn't care about your line of sight blockers, so she retains the ability to 3 gen, whereas the other killers that in some cases only remain viable thanks to 3 gens fall even further behind.
I don't know what BHVR have in mind, but just moving the gens to the map limits to handle 3 gens doesn't seem like a good solution to me.
Nurse still has to actually blink to the generator to check it, she cannot look at it from a distance which even with her adds more time she has to invest than if she is just able to look at the gen and only blinking to it when she sees someone on it.
Litteraly... litteraly anything they do just DESTROY lower tiered killers, the gap between top tier and low tier just increases with each update and its lowkey insanely frustrating
Chucky? Really? Traversing a map quickly? Chucky? Him? Really? I've never really seen him used as a traversal character, his dash isn't really a traversal tool. Yes, it's sometimes used to gain distance in chase, but I don't know anybody who uses the dash to get from one generator to another. Heck, shouldn't hillbilly be higher up in that case? His traversal ability is way higher than Chucky's. Chucky's is closer to pig's than anything else, and you don't usually see people using it for traversal. You sure you didn't add him to that list just because he's good? I mean Chucky has some of the lowest movement speed in the game, and he's not like nurse. So I'm not too sure why he's there.
Chucky good mobility? Wtf?
His dash is shit for travelling through the map.
Imagine mentioning Chucky but ignoring Billy and demo for mobility 🤣
its kind of crazy the point we're at right now as when it comes to 3 genning the only solution is to just hands down nerf killer, when it's really the survivors' responsibillity to MAKE SURE not to 3 gen. Granted some killers still make that infuriatingly impossible (SM, Knight, Blight, Nurse etc.), but maybe that is an indicator that there should be changes to these killers rather than nerfing the whole roster. Now in a 3 gen scenario I have to protect the gens with a limited amount of kicks/regression as Ghostface? Clown? All because terrible killer designs like SM and Knight exist? Its actually crazy lol great ideas and great video tho Scott
Absolutely agreed! Deja vu is a thing. Survivors do have the tools and some even have the knowledge NOT to have a three gen scenario by endgame, but it is so much easier to blame killers and run full meta builds.
They definitely need to be certain to target intentional 3-genning, not incidental 3-genning. It should definitely be a punishment for survs if they managed to get a poor last gen setup
I honestly feel if the game was built from the start with longer match times in mind the game would be easier to balanced
Would also like to point out that removing that entire playstyle would be a bit unhealthy for the game. The devs keep removing playstyles and it keeps causing the meta to be very stale. Most people in my games run the same basic 7 perks. Nerfing shouldn't happen anymore at this stage unless it's entirely problematic. We gotta start focusing on buffing.
In no world should we stop nerfing, BHVR has the brilliant plan of buffing perks to the point where they are unhealthy with how broken they are and those buffs ARE the reason the meta is stale. No survivor in the world wants to see eruption, overcharge, or grim embrace be buffed to be as oppressive as pop, pain res and deadlock. No killer in the world wants to see another perk get the buckle up treatment and suddenly have free endurance. BHVR needs to substantially nerf the meta perks, and stop buffing perks so much that they replace the old ones
@@oneofthe12sionmains70 you do realize that buffing we mean literally every single shit perk in the game needs work.
I agree with you, when I first started playing dbd, 3 genning was a very good thing for the killer to look for. And not so much taboo as it is now. But I think Scott has the right idea. If 3 gens are a taboo, let's look at bvhrs current map design for better solutions. What could improve
@@rabbidguarddog oh yeah. Definitely. Fully agree. I hope that they stop with these dumb bandaid fixes.
They go "yall we heard your cries to fix this game issue so we are working on it" -literally a full year later-
"it's here yall look"
And it's literally them just adding in a number change. It's so weird.
@@oneofthe12sionmains70I think what they mean is only buff the bad perks. I don’t think they mean buff the perks that are already very good
What if they made a new zone similar to the Void from the recent Halloween event, just with a bonus Generator in it? Maybe make it so it only appears if at least 1 or 2 survivors are dead and only 1 more gen is required to open the gates.
This would prevent killers just camping 3 particular Gens forever until they inch back an advantage but it would also mean a killer could still hold a 3 gen to punish a squad of 4 who play immersed and only do the gens on the furthest edges of the map. They'd still need to deal with the 3 gen scenario if they aren't careful but it's no longer potentially a stacked win condition for killers who play that way. If they focus too much on the 3 gens and neglect the new Void type Gen then they allow survivors to just finish up there instead. Likewise if they try to hide in the Void gen area for too long then one of the 3 gens gets finished.
This would also gimp the effectiveness of super strong killers like Blight since the Void requires the same transition time as every killer to get to and the map size for that singular gen is very small.
So their idea is to punish the killer? I really hope this isn't the case and there would need to be a heavy penalty if surviors cause this to themselves
How would you know if the survivors cuased it themselves?
@@oscar3153 You wouldn't know but about 90% of the time that's what happens
@@Mickeymouse7727 And do you have anything to back that up other than pulling it out of your ass or?
Just some of my initial thoughts:
Yes, the game needs to cut map size down for various reasons such as closing the gap between faster and slower killers.
Unfortunately, a new problem may arise, as this may act as a significant indirect buff to high-mobility killers more than it will close the gap between faster and slower killers. Take Blight for example: less geometric distance to travel means more efficiency out of power, which means more map presence in general.
Maybe the game could apply a rule to the closest gens on the map by spawning them either inside a structure, on a platform, or behind a wall/terrain, so that killers like Blight have condensed distance to travel inside of structures, essentially creating more geometric distance where it may matter (Spending rush tokens against a bunch of walls inside the building in order to get up a flight of stairs for example.)
Or at least to eliminate the ability to proxy-check gens from distance, by spawning them behind walls or inside structures so that the killer has to travel the full distance in order to physically be able to check the gen.
If DBD is looking to adopt the idea of smaller map sizes across the board in regards to game balance, then maybe certain killers need their mph cut down along with that.
Cutting map size down will not close the gap for slower killers since fast killers are still going to be fast and even stronger on the maps.
@@deadbydaylightdaily5455 Then the fast killers like Blight need to be nerfed to compensate. Blight is already pretty egregious to play against when they bring his strong addons, which they always do now since comp MMR. (And why wouldn't they?!)
it's obviously a small solution planned for a larger umbrealla bhvr, hopefully, will be arriving at is making maps smallers so bad killers with bad kits i.e. trapper don't have to walk for so long on a map like red forest compared to spirit. if indirect buffs to good killers is a tradeoff for indirectly low tier killers i think we should take it@@deadbydaylightdaily5455
@@deadbydaylightdaily5455Thank you for addressing this! Each time Scott discusses the reduction of map sizes, he consistently overlooks the fact that it amplifies the advantage for highly mobile killers.
Tbh there are killers which still could hold 3gen in your solution. Singularity with biopods, Demogorgon with portals, Nurse, Knight, even Xeno I think, etc.
I think now they are afraid all Skull Merchant mains change to Singularity mains. So in this situation not able to kick the same gen for 20th time with overcharge, eruption and whatever they use - would be good. But I would like to have your idea in game also.
For me RPD is the worst map with gens spawns, you can have RPD East Wing and only 1 gen on the east side (or vice versa), this has happened to me too many times.
The game starts with one Gen missing. When the game gets to one Gen, there will be a spawn of another Gen in a spot that breaks the potential of a three Gen. It can just have an animation of it rising out of the ground and highlighted for the first ten seconds after a spawn.
That will cause 3 gens to happen at 2 gens left rather then one gen left.
That's actually fantastic
That sounds fair actually, maybe the killer gets a brief moment of time to see it before it spawns? Maybe 10-15 seconds. Or should it pop up at the same time for everyone.
I think spreading out gens is good because realms like Yamaoka Estate can have 3-gens way too close to each other. However, I don't want it spread out too much, as that would widen the gap between top-tier Killers with strong map mobility and weak Killers with poor map mobility.
I'd prefer the following: slightly more spread out gens (mainly the ones that form 3-gens), a guaranteed short loop (maybe just a filler pallet) near the gen, a LoS blocker so you can't see the gen from across the map, and a passive repair speed bonus depending on how much the game has progressed (perhaps based on total repair progress) just to give Killers a reason to commit to chases and Survivors a reason to continue playing the game when trying to break a difficult 3-gen.
good idea but if survivors just do gens that are clustered, and leave the gens on the out side of the map, then it just makes the killers job neraly impossible, imagine having 3 gens that are on the oppisite sides of the map of each other with 3 survivors left. it would be gg for the killer either way.
that already happens if survivors are smart though. i refuse to believe the alternative is better where a killer just afks in a spot for 6 minutes til 1 gen left then starts playing the game. that cant be better
@@ScottJund Your idea works, but this comment is speaking some truth as well. If something like what you suggest was implemented, It wouldn't hurt if the killer was granted some minor base movement speed/action speed/miscellaneous buff upon 1 gen being left for completion.
@ScottJund If 4 Survivors can't attrition their way through a 3 gen, they are terrible.
I still stand by the best solution to 3 gens is to just make it where after a certain amount of time passes where a gen is not completed then the furthest gen will reset and highlight for all survivors for a short time maybe even with a sound queue to notify them. You can either block one of the gens that was in the 3 gen in this case preferably the one with the least progress or just leave all 3 open and have the reset generator as well making it 4 generators. This is probably the simplest system that would combat majority of 3 gen situations. Of course there will still be times where the gen that gets reset isn't very far because the 3 gen was in the middle of the map or you might just be versing a nurse or blight who can cover the distance easier. The main point of worry with this imo would be how soon this can activate because you only want it to affect the killers who are going out of their way to hold a 3 gen and to counteract survivors trying to wait it out and stealth till it activates. That means you'd probably want some sort of equation that checks the survivors' progress on all 3 gens compared against the time since the last generator was completed and how much regression has happened to the gens. Idk what the exact equation would be but something like that with maybe more variables would hopefully make the system as unproblematic as possible. Regardless I think just about any solution would be better than the current state especially with soloq teams that can't coordinate well enough to break stronger 3 gens
I think we can all agree this is a complicated, multi-factor issue where one solution is not gonna necessarily prevent or eradicate 3 gens, nor should it. Unlike face camping which had largely been decentived, 3 genning has the unique issue or strategy between both sides.
A killer can plot out the 3 most unsafe gens and purposefully path around them through out the game, but survivors need to also be aware that doing the 4 safest gens first is a detriment to the end goal of escaping. Accepting that there is a form of thought/strategy in 3 gening for both survivors and killers makes this a simpler issue: Its a fundamental part of the game.
You won’t be able to completely get rid of it, only tune it and nerf killers who abuse it. Assuming BHVR would ever be so bold enough to nerf Nurse and Blight, I assume the vast majority of players would not even bring up this part of the game. We can move gens further apart yes, but the endgame should be about fixing unhealthy killer gameplay abusing a core part of the game (Bubba Facecamping for example, one of the sole reasons BT was implemented as base kit)
I just hope that they are very gentle with this change. I play around defending one half of the map usually with 4 gens so that I can have enough pressure to spare that I don't have to start tunneling and killing people immediately, and if gen defense becomes significantly harder basically my only option at that point is to just start killing people as fast as possible and I think people will be a lot madder about that than they ever were with 3 gens.
It's funny how people clamor for both shorter and longer matches. What do they want? Long matches where they get lots of points, or short matches where they get killed immediately because there's a time limit on gen regression?
That is how the "meta" will be if they don't proceed very carefully with this. At present if you see things going south (2/3 gens left with few not no hooks) you can either tunnel/camp or identify the 3 gen and protect that side of the map, if you remove the option to 3 gen tunneling become the only real way to salvage things.
100% bro this community is ridiculous
If its like that then people are going to want 3 gen situations because it ends up making things easier for them, I mean gens that wont regress thats a free win.
Exactly, this 100% survivors will purposely force three gens cause they know the killer wouldn't be able to do shit about it
@@WolfsOcean we need to stop treating survivors like powerless victims bc they are far from it when they see something to abuse they do it without any remorse I mean look at how many were doing the locker glitch and being a holes about it
Your idea sounds not too bad at first, but after thinking more about it, I feel like it has just too many negative side effects. First, I like that your community gave active feedback and pointed out the zoning potential of placing Generators right next to the edges of the map. Because that was exactly the first thing that came to my mind. Here are my points I just want to add to the discussion:
a) You say that the Killer has to walk further and this time could make up for the worse position that the Survivor would be in. Let’s say the Killer has to walk 20m further on average which takes exactly 4.34 extra seconds for the default 4.6m/s Killer. It will take him a bit longer to get there but since he can easily corner a Survivor he would often get free or easier hits in return. A Survivor that is in a better position (because the gen is not right on the edge) can stay on that gen pretty long and will most likely still make it to a loop in time. Doesn’t matter which loop, EVERY loop in the game would take the average Killer more than those 4-5s already. If 5 out of the 7 gens would spawn right next to the edges EVERY Survivor would practically be forced to run Sprint Burst or Balanced Landing to reach a loop in time and avoid free hits. I mean, you could do that, but making Perks more or less mandatory is kinda bad, and it also could easily be countered with Fearmonger/Mindbreaker. The alternative for the Survivor you mentioned would be to leave the generator way earlier. Which is indeed an option. But it would only be an option if you had a clear line of sight to see the killer coming from far away. On many maps you don’t have that line of sight (and you also mentioned to add even more line of sight blockers). Against high speed Killers like Spirit or Blight or certain Stealth Killers this whole pre-running wouldn’t even be an option. Not to mention zoning Killers like Knight or Artist for example, that would love to see those edge generators. The overall easier hits would save the Killer more time than the actual 5s of extra walking distance. If Survivors would really try to avoid those free hits it would result in way less generator efficiency overall.
b) What’s also completely missing in this calculation is the fact that the amount of walking distance for the Survivors would be increasing as well. If one Survivor gets hooked right into a corner of the map (because he was working on a corner gen) another Survivor that is potentially also working on another corner gen would have to walk ALL THE WAY over to his teammate. And after unhooking and healing he potentially would have to walk ALL THE WAY back to his gen (if they want to be generator efficient and also avoid both getting cornered at the same time). Another side effect: If Survivors get hooked on the edges more frequently as a result, tunneling those Survivors would be way more beneficial for the Killer. An unhooked Survivor on the edge of the map is a much easier target with not many escape options. And since there is also a generator near those edges, the Killer can still keep up at least some pressure by doing that.
c) Increasing overall walking distances for the Killer will hurt Killers without proper mobility the most. And since the strongest Killers in the game are mostly the ones with the best mobility, this would ultimately just increase the gab between higher and lower tier killers. You just talked about the reasons why the devs decided to shrink most of the maps. Putting generators further to the edges is more or less the same as enlarging the maps again.
d) My personal opinion is that 3-gens nowadays aren’t even that big of a general problem anymore. Since many meta perks have been nerfed, breaking 3-gens against most killers is doable without matches taking for too long. It can even be a fun challenge from time to time. The main issue I see are those few Killers that still heavily rely on playing around 3-gens or have a kit that makes it extra miserable. So I would rather work explicitly on those Killers and find specific solutions for them instead of trying to find a general solution that make the whole game more complex. I can’t see a simple fix that doesn’t have at least multiple negative side effects on the game and its balance. What we can definitely agree on, is that map design and map balancing is for sure the area with the most potential for improvements.
Just pointing out that standard movement speed for Killers is 4.6m/s, with slower Killers being 4.4m/s.
@@LordMorltha Thanks for pointing that out, I corrected the numbers accordingly.
Solution: add a bar named "salvage" under the repair bar that also increases with repair progress but also can never be kicked away, this bar takes 240 seconds of full repair speed time to fill, once the new bar ("salavage") is full, gen repair speed is increased by 1000% for all survs on that specific gen, easy fix, no map changes, no hostage games, no gen fuckery, no kick limiting
I actually love that idea as it nerfs gen regression perks and helps encourage killers to branch out and not spam them in their loadouts.
I feel like this is a very fine line between spreading gens on a small map, and just making the map bigger. I really do think that a lot of the issues you highlighted about killers with and without mobility tools being set apart into different classes based on whether they can get between gens quickly enough is going to come back up because this is just too similar to making the map bigger. (you're effectively getting the gen-spread of a large map, but by putting it onto a small map you're not making it easier for slow killers to patrol them, you're only making it easier for /all/ killers to secure downs once they get to the corner/edge gens).
I love your content scott, but I think this problem really doesn't have a solution that's this simple. I'm not sure if any of the other solutions we've heard are better though. I'm really fearful of BHVR limiting gen regression because that likely will force killers even harder into tunneling out survivors early to secure wins. As a killer main, knowing I have a good late-game hold is often one of the reasons I don't mind letting a survivor go after they make too many horrible mistakes early.
I think one of the solutions I did like was the idea of making it so killers don't automatically see all the gen auras at the very start. Maybe they have to find them? (and then maybe for every gen that gets completed the aura of one random unfound gen gets revealed to them as well).... this would be a big nerf to killers across the bboard, but I think it could be compensated for in other healthier ways, importantly though (!) it would prevent killers from picking out a 3-gen at the start of the game, and it would encourage exploring more of the map in the early stages. But it would still allow killers to punish survivors who corner themselves into a 3-gen by doing gens in a bad order. (And if there was any specific 3-gens that are commonly held, like the old one in the middle of Haddon field, then while this change wouldn't necessarily fix that, it would at least highlight that those are issues with very specific maps and their gen spawns that need to be changed)
(I don't think I like this idea, but technically if you really wanted to turn this into a buff, you could even just make it so the auras of a gen are hidden UNTIL whenever that gen is first worked on by any survivor --or until they pass a certain percentage, that way killers are guaranteed to see gens before they pop, and they actually get a big advantage out of knowing where survivors are in the early game).
i think that solutions involving numbers just perpetuates behaviours game design issue. this is a good opportunity for a fresh game mechanic that changes the stale formula of game progression. what if when it comes down to the last 3 gens, theres either some “limbo” period before 3 random gens get reactivated to work on again, meaning there would never be an instance with a three gen, but now theres this extra stage of the game inbetween the mid and end game? survivors have to be more aware of resource usage in different areas so that some gens could be in deadzones (but as far from the next 2 as possible) and killers cant just stall out the game as viably? sure this still creates a divide between high tier and low tier killer kits but these issues have arisen because of those kits, and this fix might push killer designs to be less skull merchant or knight like
You don’t even watch this person’s videos consistently and got something to say for what? You need to stfu because you loud and wrong.
Your new suggested generator placements would indirectly buff Trapper, which is pretty cool
How about a new endgame scenario?
Survivors do 4 gens like normal (out of the usual 7) and that's it for gens, the remainder pop. So, instead of having to complete one of the remaining 3 gens left on the map, 3 new fuse box objectives will become active that will always spawn spread out on the map (and you'd only need to complete 1 fuse box to power the gates. It is functionally identical to a 5th gen).
Quick recap: 4/7 gen count, then -> 1/3 fuse box, then -> exit gates.
edit: I just realized that under some circumstances, this proposition (although it negates the 3-gen issue) would lead to slightly longer games than usual. This is due to the fact that each of the 3 fuse boxes cannot be interacted with until 4 generators have been completed, in contrast to how a final generator can be progressed in tandem with preceeding generators. A theoretical fuse box "stage" would essentially impose a hard-addition of time to a game by however quickly a fuse box can be knocked out, a limit that could've otherwise been circumvented by progressing the final and second-last gen simultaneously.
Easy solution:
The more a killer regresses generators, the less powerful regression becomes, let's say at 250% gen progress drained, it regresses at 50% speed,, and perks become 50% less powrrful forr regressing, then it resets when a Killer hooks a survivor.
Could even give an insentive to not tunelling by making it so if you don't tunnel, you get FASTER gen regression.
I would say after 10 ish minutes a brand new part spawns furthest away from all gens (like pinhead box but with gens) both killers and survivors can see it. After it has been used every 30 - 60 sec a nother will spawn effectivly doing gen progress that can not be reversed is any way that is very quick. The reason the killer can also see the bnp spawn is so survivors can just hide and abuse the system and actualy have to comeout of hiding to get it
i had an idea which i believe would still work :
after 1 gen is left, after x amount of time if its not completed, one of the closest gen will turn on, and one of the previously repaired gen will turn off, the game would calculate the distance between the tri gen in question & the completed gens and would choose one that would be x mount of distance away from these gens
That is actually a very good idea, I cant see anything wrong with it initially. You would just have to make sure that the gens that swapped were fair and the time limit before they swap is also fair, since holding a 3 gen close to the end of a match to try and coral survivors into an area to generate pressure is fine and part of the skill of killer so if we set the time limit fairly you could still do this whilst not holding the same 3 gens for an hour.
One thought I've had was adding 2 gens to the map, but these 2 gens would be considered destroyed. To fix them you have to find parts around the map to fix the destroyed gen and then the gen can be worked on and repaired/regress like any other gen with having a reduced time to repair. 20 or 30 seconds reduced total time compared to the default gens. Would also give survivors a real 2nd objective to find parts.
no
I think the best way to fix 3 genning would be to remove it as a concept, and how i'd do that would be this: Change map generation from 7 gens to 9 gens. Increase the amount of gens needed to be completed by survivors from 5 to 6. Reduce the amount of time one generator takes to complete by about 15% so the gen time remains about the same.
If the gens are at the edges of the map then there should also be more pallets and tiles at the edges. It's incredibly frustrating when I get hit without being able to do anything about it just because I had to risk working on a generator that's in the middle of a dead zone.
Yeah I feel ya. I try to stealth on those gens but there's only so many times a killer won't check the 2 rocks near the gen before finding you lol
Yea, you just mentioned another problem noone is talking about. A lot of the time most important gens to do to prevent 3gen are in dead zones or area with poor loops
i somewhat disagree. the pallet count on a lot of maps can already be high. adding more loops and pallets would make creating deadzones feel a lot harder.
Then that suggestion would be a huge direct nerf for killers
I dont think thats fair
Survivors choose what gens they want to repair, if you have sprint burst you can repair any gen even the unsafe ones
If you have lithe you could choose a gen with a window really close, etc
The unsafe gens are crucial to make the game fair and balanced for weak killers
No matter how gens are spread, anyone who comes in with the goal to 3-gen will 3-gen and that is a fact. The way I would fix it would be to only allow you to kick a specific generator an amount of times that no one would ever do besides for 3-genning, like 10-15 kicks and then you can't kick that gen anymore for the trial. The 3-gen perks are kick related, so eventually it will break if you can't kick it.
reminds me of the argument for a ledge grab limit in smash lmao
Tru3 had a game on stream at Suffocation Pit where 3 gens were all within 24 meters of each other, so Scott is not lying here.
Knight can still patrol that.. the best option is to: When the 'system' detects a 3 gen it auto completes one of those and uncompletes the main building gen if the main building is the one 3-gened it just goes MISC
As someone who feels gens go too fast if they nerf the amount we can regress them or how often we can I truly think it will cause a rift between me and this game
100% this. I'll get a blatant solo queue team from time to time and gens will go at a sensible pace and I can just play for chases rather than focusing on macro strategies.
When I get a 3-4 stack who are all friends on steam with around 5k+ hrs each, the gens can get done in 4 minutes if I don't focus up on my macro strategies.
Stuff like tunneling, where I hook survivors in relation to my gens, where my gen spread is and what area I want to condense the survivors to, etc. This stuff is all in the cards when I'm going against a team that's in Discord and actively trying to win.
Taking these strategies away from killers just makes the game a major power trip for these teams - they will literally be undefeatable against any killer that isn't a Blight/Nurse.
BHVR just spent a year doing essentially nothing but turbo nerfing gen speeds, and you're "someone who feels gens go too fast"....
That's a skill issue, homie
The core problem with dbd is that the maps are balanced for survivors and killers together, rather than individually. In another world, we could analyze map landmarks as those are the chainsaw killer ramps, there's xeno's vents, small towers for ranged killers, GRASS FOR TRAPPER, and on the flip side there's the big drops for balanced landing, the "extra crunchy" area where quiet/walking perks are good, the chest and locker treasure room for the scavengers, and etc. It would make random map generation seem a lot less random because the "rules" are on display, but random map generation also follows its own rules, such as discussed in this video, and players learn it as they go. That's how you get consistent performance of killer powers and perks across all maps. It's like the devs watching people playing their game and then bouncing off of what they see happen. Yes, that is a whole lot of work, and it does mean needing to retroactively rebalance old maps, but now when the new chapter drops, the full impact of development work will speak for itself and everyone will chew on that for awhile as they look forward to map rebalancing, which will only become apparent over time anyway. Now if you can't tell I'm a very long winded person, but in my opinion the 3-gen problem is a lot less of a map spawn thing and more of a "this is how killers chase" thing. Because every single chase is the same: the target will be crouched in one spot and can leave at any moment, and will leave at predicable times. That's it. So that leads to a very geometric play on the strategic level, because the chases are linear. Bear with me for a second, imagine dbd in a high fantasy setting where everyone has magic. So now instead of sitting in a spot and occasionally pressing the spacebar for a minute or two (i.e. doin a gen), survivors have to search a (small/medium/large) area for missing parts to a generator; or they have to leave an avatar of themselves in a place to be a magical siphon for someone in trouble and lose a health state if it's destroyed, or they have to go search the map for a specific item and are only given the pacing distance (so that they would need to be frequently looking down to check the directions), and maybe even a "steal a killer trophy" like one of xeno's eggs or oni's totems (just something thematic) and it becomes capture the flag for a minute, or you have to juggle an item and if you get chased it drops, and etc. While these might seem like quests out of an RPG, they lead to "natural" opportunities for killers to do their thing. Trappers are great for targets with predictable paths, stalkers are great for distracted targets, ambushers are great for timing attacks, brawlers are great for area denial, etc. Behavior could even keep their modular development style and tie all these map specifics to each killer, like they do already with killer specific things like pig's boxes or plague's fountains. I think survivor perks should just be baked into the map because there's four of them and the killer might be able to read too much into perk selection at the beginning.
So in other words there's no way that this translate into not just nerfing killers again. No matter what you do it's a killer nerf.
Havent seen a killer nerf in forever but whatever u say😂
You can't just say another killer nerf because there is a massive power difference in killers cast. Nothing the developers do ever effects nurse, blight, spirit, wesker because these killers are innately strong. We have seen this throughout the years where changes effect only the lower and middle tier killers while S/A tier killers hardly get effected by these changes.
@@jasper.rubyftw Of course it affects them just affects them less
@@adhdeeznuts7095 cry
@@Mickeymouse7727 im a blight main and i can tell you that blight has not been affected whatsoever by any changes made. Maybe he lost a little bit of free pressure that some perks gave him but he is still op as hell. This is the reason that his add ons are set to be changed in the coming months. The strongest killers don't really get affected by "nerfs" cause to them they aren't really nerfs. These changes just bring their pressure a little bit down which is fine since they are really strong to begin with.
Or just add another gen to the map, making it so the killer has to control a 4-gen (good luck with that). In turn, increase the amount of time needed to complete gens, maybe by another +10 seconds per gen to compensate for the killer having another gen to monitor/track/regress/etc.
Would need to be tweaked here and there to get the balancing right, but hey, nothing says there has to be only 8 total gens on the map.
Adding another gen would make survivors very strong. Alot of extra rebalancing would need to come with that change. Thats why people are trying to find solutions that dont disrupt current gameplay.
@@CR4CKSM0K3R any change made to 3-gens will disrupt the current gameplay. That's how game balance works. But in reality, that is probably the best thing to do. Will it be difficult to balance for both sides? Sure. But hey, better than having gens in the literal corners of the map, or nerfing gen stall perks into the ground, etc.
Thoughts on adding one more gen to map generation? 3 gens become 4 gens which should be a lot harder to guard. Survivors can spend less time running around the map looking for gens and lets them do the objective easier. If this tips balance too far in the direction of survivor we just increase gen times or make killer stronger in different aspects until its balanced again. Should promote healthier gameplay and remove some of the annoyance around gens.
Just add the 5th survivor too while you're at it and 4hooks to kill survivors as well.
your proposed solution has a massive issue in that it has a major effect on regular gameplay for the sake of making 3genning less effective. Placing gens at corners (currently only possible on the swamp maps) negatively affects low mobility killers, possibly incentivising them into holding a 3gen due to how much harder it becomes to defend gens in the early game. I think bhvr is more likely to just remove the immediate regression from kicking gens if not outright preventing killers from kicking gens in close proximity at 1 gen left, similar to how they block vaults to prevent infinites, and that would not affect regular gameplay that much.
it also negatively affects survivors who have to run further to get to the generator
@@ScottJund yes, but I'd say they're not affected nearly as much, especially in the early game when killer is at its weakest; by the same argument, 3 gens also reduce the travel distance for survivors which clearly isn't enough. Wider gen spread also indirectly nerfs several regression perks as well, like jolt hitting fewer gens and pop requiring more travel after hooking, and stuff like nowhere to hide. It has too much impact on regular gameplay and requires map changes which also make it unrealistic by bhvr's standards. I do believe your proposal might make 3genning even more necessary.
What about just removing one gen? So you bring the total amount of gens on the map down to 6, which forces a wider spread. Then you bring the amount of gens that need to be completed down to 4, and you make them take a proportionately longer amount of time to complete to make up for the lost gen.
I think this is needed with the current map design philosophy of making maps smaller. The current amount of gens is, imo, a relic from when the game used to be more of a hide and seek horror game in its early days.
I would agree with this as a killer main it makes the most sense. Especially if they don't want to fix maps
You know it sounds crazy, but I like it. If everyone spawns in and immediately begins their objective, the two furthest gens are likely to pop near the first down anyway. Not only does this push the killer away from using that part of the map, it also reduces interaction overall. Longer speeds and better spawns would lead to a lot more interesting interactions than currently exists on a lot of distant gens, etc.
that would fuck the balence of allmost every percentage gen perk. as less gens more time per gen makes the value of a % higher and now brand new parts 10% is worth A LOT MORE and so are pop anf surge and every killer gen regression perk thats a % and every surivor % gen progression perk
@@662mann8 Obviously that and some other gameplay aspects would have to be tweaked and rebalanced, but that's not an issue. Just a necessary part of the change.
I don't agree with smaller maps I think bigger maps is better but helping killers with being able to handle larger maps make them shine in their own way like maybe clown could just set a trap on a gen so the bottles explode like there is ways to add to the game without taking away. We can't give them a pass on being lazy by just decreasing the maps size.
Sprint Burst would be more prevalent, which would make Mind Breaker a more pickable perk.
It would nerf Surge, because now even less generators are in range to be effected, so they would have to adjust that.
It would kinda buff all perks which don't make you walk to the gen to regress it, so Pain Resonance, Oppression and buffed Surge.
Tunneling would go up, because now players are even more split up than usual and kicking gens would be more of a time investment.
It would kinda reverse the changes to make maps smaller, because now gens would kinda have the old distance again, but the gens are more dangerous to do, which makes it less worse for weaker killers.
Another problem I have with the general 3 gen idea, is a ton of killers put specific map offerings that allow them to check gens without much time waste. RPD is one of them, in one wing variant, there's 2 gens that spawn in main lobby which can be checked literally at the same time with no time sink because they're both literally wide open to each other, zero movement required to check, then there's another gen in the bottom floor hall right next to the lower floor main lobby gen, so the killer can check ALL THREE gens by just standing next to the lower lobby generator, 0 time spent. In the other variant, you have a gen in the upper floor right wing, bottom floor, main lobby, and the right wing outside area. It takes significantly more time than the other variant, BUT, it still takes merely seconds to check each gen by just looking since there's zero line of sight blockers on any of these gens except for the outside area which requires maybe 5 seconds of moving to check, so the killer has zero requirement to even walk much.
This literally means 3 gens is a MAP issue, not a killer issue. I already know BHVR is gonna nerf killers to stop 3 gens, but it's so dumb, this isn't a killer problem, they shouldn't nerf killers to fix this. They need to fix the way maps are generated, and make gens harder to check, killers shouldn't be able to check gens from halfway across the map. Your argument for the corner gens is good, it's a time sink for the killer to have to go there, which makes it so every other survivor in all the other parts of the map are guaranteed safe, so the corner being unsafe for the survivor is balanced. But don't forget the part where there NEEDS to be line of sight blockers, so the killer can't just check the corner gen from mid map and know without a doubt whether they're about to waste time going there, or if they will catch a survivor in that corner. There should be risk and reward with checking far away gens, not guaranteed reward because you're able to see the survivor working on it from 30+ meters away.
EDIT: DUDE I POSTED MY LINE OF SIGHT BLOCKERS THING BEFORE I SAW YOU SAID IT. I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS FOR YEARS ON THE DBD REDDIT. I get shit on so much on the reddit for saying there NEEDS to be LOS blockers on gens that spawn too close to each other, and killers just shit on me saying I'm a trash survivor player who should learn to stop 3 genning myself rather than change maps to cater towards me.
How I'd Fix 3-gens : make it so each generator remember how much they regressed. If a gen has regressed X times its amount required to repair, for each subsequent percent it loses, a X amount is cut off of it like a brand new part. If you have literally finished a gen 2-3 times and still regress i think there is a problem and that should fix it while keeping normal games untouched
Honestly keep the gen spawns the exact same but at end game one of the available gens should be consumed by the entity and the furthest completed gen becomes available again
How to fix 3-gen: let survivors "remove" charges of a completed gen at the same speed as normal repairing. Once there are 3 gens left, survivors have the option to "de-repair" a random completed generator. Once the action starts it can't be used on a different gen anymore. Only 1 survivor can complete the task at a time, and like I said it takes just as long as repairing a full generator without relying on perks and skillchecks (in this case no perk will speed up the process). When the charges are all removed, the gen progress is now back to 0 and can be re-repaired like any other generator (skill checks and perks allowed). Also, the whole process is announced to the killer, from the start of the removal of charges all the way to lighting up the aura of the gen back again. I think this is the most balanced solution to fix 3-gen. Survivors still need to mind their own mistakes and not accidentally 3-gen, but if it happens then all the pressure goes to both parties. Survivors need to play well if they want to "waste" 1 team member's time on a completed gen, and the killer needs to step up their game and kill the survivors until they finish their job.
Maybe built in corrupt for killers but let it stay on the 3 furthest gens and let it last all game. The gens will uncover when there the only gens left. Sounds silly I know but it was just a wild idea lol
Its not map design for the most part is though. Its mostly killer design. Theres only a couple of maps that are especially problematic but the killers that allow braindead lockdown should be changed bc say you have a wraith holding a 3 gen that is on survivors to break it. But solution in the video doesnt do anything vs knight like he can just put ai on the gens without needing to check and if you have to prerun extremely early bc otherwise you give a guaranteed hit
4:40 unless you playing blight or nursse, xeno or a killer that can just teleport to gens.
There’s a solid amount that I disagree with this. 3-gens are a HARD fix and I think the idea of “warming up” is closer to the best, maybe something like a 60sec last gen but a 120sec first gen. But map design dedei helps. We have to remember 3 gens HAVE been fixed via map design like Lampkin lane getting some gen spawns out. Most 3 gems are pretty unlucky and I think it needs to be a mixture. Going full force on less regression like Scott thinks the devs are going to do is certainly an issue (if it was an easy fix we wouldn’t argue about this but it’s not so I’m putting my nickel in so someone else can come up with a better mixture). But here’s what I find wrong with putting gens on edges: my main issue (which may be personal bias) is I hate edge tiles. I think Z walls and occasional junk loops are fine and all that but having totems, hatch, and gens spawn are awful because they’re harder to find, to see, and you have no where to go from them. Line of sight blockers from killers also block survivors from seeing the killer, the survivor gets cornered, the middle becomes empty and useless, etc. I think a map can have dead zones with a bit of a “hanging” gen. So think of groaning storehouse where there’s an extra wing but with less pallets and shit in the way. Perhaps you can make the map a TINY bit bigger and then put a gen or up against a wall, but in reality I think most maps only have one or two real 3-gens so you don’t need much more space to make more balanced
A simple fix to 3 gens, is that survivors slowly improve their gen speed as they work on gens.
Another option is that gens can only regress a total of 100%.
For both solutions, slightly increasing gen time would be needed.
Have you considered something like regression protection on gen progress?
I think adding a mechanic where the gen can no longer regress past a certain point after meeting a criteria would help a lot. The criteria could be based on survivors repair time, the amount/times regressed, how many times the gen reached a point etc.
For example, if there was a regression protection based on the total time spent repairing that generator, then after say, 180 seconds of time spend repairing the same gen (normal time is 90 sec), the gen starts to gain a gold bar where the gen could no longer be regressed pasted. Then the survivors would eventually be able to finish the gen if the killer choose to hold it or it would prompt the killer to change tactics.
Behavior could try different criteria, times, etc. but it would allow them to improve the problem now without having to look into any map or perk changes. Survivors would be less likely to give up if there was regression protection on gen progress and knew working on them mattered, and killers would be more likely to participate in more engaging gameplay as 3-gens would eventually fail.
Only if they have a survivor 3-gens themselves mechanic where that doesn't activate otherwise like every other "gens should go faster, gens should swap places, gens should never regress anymore" mechanic thrown out there, all it does is punish the killer for survivors screwing up and forcing him into that situation to defend the 3-gen that was literally handed to them.
Best way I can see my thing happen is if gens are repaired so fast that a 3-gen happens, then then survivors will not get help with the 3-gen they made.
@@XenoVT
I don't think its possible to differentiate between the killer creating a 3 gen and the survivors creating one when it comes to coding, especially since its the map generation that's at fault.
I believe that working towards improving gameplay for any type of 3 gen is the best thing to do, it should not matter who created it and its not about 'getting an upper hand to win,' it should be about creating a more engaging and fun match. The regression protection mechanic would promote more enjoyable gameplay, shorter match times, and cause less DC's and frustration when survivors see a skull merchant, knight, pop, jolt etc. Killers can still hold 3 gens and use it to their advantage, just not for an hour. They can still use and get value out of gen regression perks, just not use them to stall the game for 30+ minutes and instead be prompted to chase someone and progress the match.
Behavior can work on finding the best mechanic/ criteria and how to balance it. For example, they could base it off of total match time rather than repair time, and after 20 minutes in a match it can activate. Or do a combination off both! So after 20 minutes and 180 repair time it started the protection on that generator. Or make it kick in after 360 secs on that gen so that when the survivors have worked on it for over 4 gens worth of time, it finally starts to stick that 5th time.
Regression protection is a much faster and manageable solution for behavior to implement and balance rather than waiting years for map gen to get fixed. I also think it would feel better for killers versus nerfing gen regression overall, putting a cooldown on kicking a gen, or preventing gen regression at 3 gens, etc.
@@kirachristensen8876 it honestly would not feel that good for killers at all, that's the problem, it is a good solution against killers that go straight for that playstyle but it also heavily punishes those that don't, and survivors 3-genning themselves happens much more than a killer going out of their way to do it. Unless a better incentive is given to reward a chase during a 3-gen instead of being forced to defend one, only to not be able to do much because you are also racing against the clock before survivors get their free advatange for their screw up is a miserable experience.
A solution needs to happen that benefits BOTH sides and not just one. It's even worse with how generators still fly by so fast which is also one of the main issues on why survivors 3-gen themselves, they rush a gen blindly as soon as they see one because they want to hurry and escape as fast and as efficient as possible that they don't pay attention to the 3-gen they are about to give the killer. And right now the only way to have pressure in that situation is to defend the 3-gen while slugging and the match is just a miserable mess at that point until one side makes a mistake that finally ends it.
I think a good solution needs to be a grace period for both sides if there is a 3-gen, a moment in the match where there HAS to be interaction between killer and survivor. Give the killer a chance to regain some pressure, but also implement your idea once the grace period is up so that survivors even if it's their own mistake won't have to worry about a drawn out 3-gen fight. But how to do something like that I sadly have no ideas at the moment.
Honestly, I tend to agree with quite a few of your points, but I feel like this is just one I hard disagree with. Killers like Blight, Nurse, or Spirit exist. They don't have to spend much time commitment to gens that are further away and can already effectively hold bigger 3-gens if they want to play like that. The only thing this fixes is it stops the weaker killers from being able to do the same while the stronger killers have to play a slightly weaker 3-gen scenario instead. I genuinely feel like just spreading out gens more is actually just the bandaid fix to this as the stronger killers (and some with higher mobility than average like xeno or chucky or singularity) can still effectively hold these 3-gens, even if they are spread out further.
I feel like the solution for 3-gens isn't actually clean and simple like this. Nerfing Blight or Nurse would be good but then you can't ever make a killer with good mobility ever again because then we just get back to this point. The solution for 3-gens has to account for every possible type of killer and this solution only accounts for low mobility killers.
Personally, I think a better solution would genuinely be, as goofy as it sounds, let survivors move gens. If a gen isn't popped in say 5 minutes, let survivors slowly push gens without making progress on them. Allowing them to effectively "stall" out a 3-gen scenario and get them into a better position. As an added challenge you could also say gens that are being moved in this fashion regress at 100% speed (0.25 c/s).
I feel like thats a better solution that accounts for all killer variety that currently exists or can exist.
Thinking of that one match where I had a 3gen Wesker whose plan was to hinder everybody permanently. That game went on for 30 minutes because we were all too stubborn to give him the kill. He still won eventually. Dude only had like 300-400 hours lol
I think it would also require to make more creative edge-tiles. Like now the only thing you'd have on most maps would be a Z wall. I'd love to see some improvement to those tiles but the devs aren't gonna spend resources when we can get new broken killer with uncreative addons
hey, solution - create one more generator on another part of the map, if there's 1 gen left. Pretty straight forward and simple.
I feel like others mentioned Blight and the response is "well Blight will always be strong so who cares, that happens now already"
But the issue is not that it happens, is that this makes the gap wider. Making maps smaller was made so as you said, a Clown and a Blight wouldn't have insane differences on map patrol, but making it so now the gens are further, isn't that litteraly the same issue that big maps had, that gens were too spread out, so only high mobility killers would defend them?
Like, Clown before would take 1 gen to go from corner to corner of mothers dwelling so they couldn't defend them, making it so gens are more spread out is litteraly adding the issue of big maps onto any map(aka, spreader gens)
Not saying it wouldn't solve 3 genning, but it would push people to either Blight/Nurse, or to play a non mobility killer, patrol the closest 3-4 gen, and proxy-tunnel people off their area. (Which you can argue it happens now already, but it'd be making that more widespread)
I feel like limiting kicks is the closest to a good measure, maybe add more LoS blockers on gens, but not just moving them away so M1 killers take half the match to reach them
i think gens spawning far outside will still screw over slower killers and make mobility killers stronger than ever. plus skull merchant/knight/singularity/demo etc can still just plop things on the corner gens to deadzone the area even more than it's already deadzoned and the distance won't matter as much after because no survivor is going to keep doing gens in corners where there's nothing and getting cornered means instant down-- meanwhile the survivors who need to come help you are in the complete opposite corner of the map. then when you're hooked, they take forever to get you half of the time (especially in solo queue), and not to mention x2, the killer is not going to leave the hook area, at least not very far, because the survivor on hook is properly secluded and it just makes sense to stay for unhook (which most killers already do even when there's no gen related incentives).
maybe they should change their los spawning algorithm for the generator placements so that they can't spawn within 2 inches and line of sight from each other on the worst/smallest maps, or at least add more los blockers for those close gens. most games 3gening in general isn't a problem (speaking as a mostly survivor main), but i do think most games i get 3gened from the start it's like, extremely obvious the killer would be crazy NOT to because the gens are kissing each other and one/two chases kill the pallets and after that it's like... yeah they're going to stay there, why wouldn't they? the game doesn't incentivize them to leave and the rng gen spawns being regularly that bad on smaller maps means ofc they're going to stay in that zone.
As always these changes are going to hurt weaker killers while leaving strong killers mostly unaffected .
true... it wont work out
unfortunately that's what happens with pretty much every change in this game because the gaps between the weakest and strongest things are way too big. Can't buff killer without buffing nurse and blight simultaneously, can't nerf killer without nerfing trapper. Can't buff survivor without buffing swf, can't nerf them without nerfing solo q.
Don’t always agree with Scott but the second I heard “biggest issue with dbd is map design” I was like. “Hell yes, 100%, truest statement ever. If I could leave on certain maps I would every time until they started designing them better”
They'll make it so you can't regress below a certain percentage once the gen has got to it... Example: once the gen reaches 50% you can't go below it... If the gen is at 80% you can regress It back down to 50% just not below it.
If they decide to have some cooldown on kicking or regressing, it won't fix anything. Instead of 3 genning being killer sided it will then be survivor sided, it would change nothing except change the power dynamic of 3 genning from killer to survivor sided, which is the problem with it in the first place. It benefits one side.
Increasing distance of generators is the safest way to do it imo.
I'd always thought, that one fix would be, if 3 gens are too close and there is only 1 generator required left, then one of the 3 generators will activate and a further activated generator will deactivate. Though, I don't like the idea of punishing a killer for playing optimally even if it's unfun for survivors.
This is a terrible idea because it punishes all killers by making every single gen just harder to check in general even if they're not protecting a 3-gen. Its like buring down thr house just to kill a spider.
It has a benefit to them as well in that outskirts of maps are very unsafe which will very often result in a hit for the killer if they do commit to checking the gen and it has someone on it.
The survivor/survivors on that gen are more than likely dead to a decent killer. Edge of map doesn't have anything near strong enough to avoid the killer for long. Don't forget aura reading perks exist too. I do understand that for killers with bad map traversal it means alot of walking back and forth.. I don't have a solution that. I don't think survivors should suffer hour long 3 gen games either. That's the issue with creating a game with 2 sides fighting for "balance". No one is happy.
This would essentially punish people who play M1/immobile killers even more, because by spreading out the gens to the very edge corners of the map, you've effectively made the playing size of the map bigger after they've tried to reduce the size of them. Yes, it probably would kill the 3-gen strategy entirely but it would also punish killers who play fair and want to legitimately pressure generators in the intended way. It may only take a few extra seconds to make that distance, but over the course of a game, walking back and forth to multiple generators in a corner, it makes a big difference - especially to SWF's who can communicate and pre-run extremely early to mitigate the dead zone of pallets in the corners.
I think people hold a 3-gen because their killer (or individual skill) is simply unable to generate enough pressure via hooks, and by doing this you're basically pigeon-holding them to the next best thing, which is probably hard tunnelling or proxy camping every hook. So what's the solution then? Give those weak killers mobility? Then we have Blight who just doesn't care if the gen is slightly more in a corner of the map. I think the solution is to just cap the amount of regression which can be applied to a singular generator, since oh boy, seeing the middle gen get popped for the 6th time and then pain res'd for the 3rd, with 5 surges in-between is incredibly miserable. But if there was let's say, a cap of 100% regression (so you can regress a gen by 100%, after the perks don't work anymore), then a 3 gen would be impossible since the killer is doomed to lose the war of attrition and is pressured to go for hooks (and chases), which is what we all want.
I don't think you can fix it entirely =/
Repressed Alliance and Potential Energy could be used to unload 20% into the generator and lock it for 30 seconds, and then repeat. Potential Energy needs a buff.
my idea was to make gen times and regression speed based on how many gens are done so at the start of the match gens take 100 seconds but for every gen completed all other gens have 5 seconds shaved off at 4 gens it is 95 seconds then 3 gens left takes is 90 seconds 2 is 85 and only 1 gen left takes 80 seconds to complete, because the gens take less time to complete percentage regression perks are inherently weaker the more gens are completed and as for passive regression at 5 gens they regress at 250% the current regression but with each gen completed it is reduce d by 50% so when there is only one gen left passive regression is at 50% the current regression speed.
the overall time to complete generators stays the same as live but killers have more time in the early game for set up or snowball
And if they decide to tunnel because that is still the best strategy? Now it’s impossible to win against any good killer that’s B and above
@@oscar3153 this idea was just about fixing 3-gens. tunnelling is its own issue but if that did end up being the strat most survivors would respond by bringing anti tunnel perks like off the record dead hard and made for this and start using toolboxes to blast the first two gens. changing anything fundamental will always shift the meta.
What if they made it so killers couldn't see the gen auras for the first 3 minutes or tie it into a base kit corrupt intervention? So that they can't see them until they down someone, the same time the gen blocking comes up.
they are going to give the bnp effect basekit, like you only need 95% of the gen to complete it, after a bit 90%, 85%, etc
What if they do the facecamp strategy and make the worst case scenarios much harder
These are arbitrary values, but what if after 30 minutes of a match, gen speeds slowly increases to double speed over 30 minutes
That way, it's not worth waiting out that long, without affecting normal matches
They hinted in the Q&A that it'll have to do with gen kicking. That said, I prefer this idea. I've never played a match longer than 25 minutes that wasn't just a complete stallout. I get the appeal, but the community clearly hates this playstyle.
Or you could just do the gens closest together ?
I mean if the counterpoint is "killer has to walk 15 seconds to the corner to check the gen" arent we back to square 0 of large map sizes, where blight will get to the corner with no cost but clown will take an hour.
Also, itll lead to more hit and run playstyle and heal slowdown builds. Since the cot er gens will be dangerous to the point of being a guaranteed hit, surviors are basically forced to heal before doing them. Yes good slowdown but i can already see the hit run legions, wraiths...
its way easier for them to address the kicking of gen multiple times than rework every single map that has 3 gens so your solution isn't good actually..
I think the best solution is to limit killer from kicking gens multiple times without down/possibly a hook.. like this directly address the issue and end discussion
I think it should b more of an aura or range thing where after the damage generator action the generator that was kicked should have an aura that decreases the amount that additional kicks affect other gens. Like if you kick shack gen on corn map and have 2 other gens in 30-45 meter range kicking another gen within 10-20 seconds then the second damage gen action would b half as strong. Then killer goes back to shack kicks that gen within 10-20 seconds regression is 25% then he walks to other gen to just keep juggling and his next kick is 10-0% regression and it’s only stops current progress. I think the numbers and range of everything would need to be changed but other than taking a lot of smaller maps out of Rotation while they get fixed would really hurt no mobile killers
The only thing that needs to happen is curated gen spawns. Currently there are *preset* genspawns but there are like 25(Random ass number) and the game randomly picks them while having some rules like gen distance. Instead there should just be like 3 preset generations where the gens ALWAYS spawn in that spot. This allows for easier map knowledge retention for new players and easier balance cause maybe they fuck up a aspawn, they just need to move one generator or a new prop to block LOS etc.
Random generation will never be hand in hand with balanced.
How do I fix playing killer having the most efficient survivors on gens 24/7 literally having deadlock block two gens but when I play solo queue survivor I literally do four gens by myself while my other three teammates don’t touch ONE LITERALLY ONE the entire game 😂
I don't see 3 genning as the biggest issue, my issue is that gens are too much of the focus of objective for there to be other things the killer would want to do to slow down the game (besides being a good chase killer that can down people somewhat reliably). But as the Otzdarva video kinda pointed out, the devs don't have ambition for changing the core game, so I guess doing a simple solution is probably what they would do.
it would be simpler to limit the total amount of regression possible on a generator (like BNP does for the first 10%) when the survivors only need to do 1 generator.
or disable regression entirely when 4 gens are completed.
I fail to see how that would be worse then redesigning the gen spawns to punish killers without mobility while also dead zoning every survivor working on gens
Doesn’t this solution lead to your least favorite thing about blood lodge?
Wouldn’t the new best strategy be split up to the corners of the map?
Are all the maps significantly smaller that that doesn’t just crush over 60% of the killer roster?
100%
if we’re at the point where we’re griping about 3gening, i’d say the game is in a pretty good spot in terms of balance!
I can't tell from all the complaining from all these youtubers lately But I've been feeling the exact same way. Behavior constantly doing what people ask for and then they say behavior isn't listening!
by spreading generators THAT far it just nerfs gen regression so the game becomes even easier for survivors than it already is
how about making a system where there are 3 designated "last gen" in which 3 gens are blocked (or dont exist) and then when 4 gens are repaired, then they get unblocked and can start to be repaired as normal, there would be a decent distance between them so it can't get patrolled for a 3 gen (boring) and kinda forces the killer to commit to chase someone or think of some new strategies.
this would be my take on the subject, may be terrible lol haven't played with my brain turned on in like 8 months
edit: this is very similar to corrupt intervention just stronger lol.
edit 2: maybe it'll be better if the "last gens" are different to the 7 normal gens.
I dont think 3gening is an issue. Only a few killers can do it. Skillmerchant completly changed.soo maybe knight and hag and few others... But none of them can make hour long games. 3gening is survivors fault not planing out where to do gens. Dont butcher their skillceiling further. Also if survs can get op tiles,then killers should have a little bit closer gens.
6:37 cries in humtress.
I think they will put a cooldown on a kicking gens or there will be some delay before they start regressing.
maybe they could change the number of generators required to complete to 3 and just extend the completion time on them, then we would have 5 spread out gens.
on swamp maps sometimes there are already gens in corners like that.
I think an easier way to fix it is, when it gets to one gen left and the killer has a 3 gen, after kicking 1 gen like 5 or 8 times, that gen swaps place with the one farthest away from it, so that gen that the killer was kicking becomes "completed" and the farthest away is now avaiable to be worked on. simple.
I agree with map redesign for gen placements cause I will absolutely guard three gens on autohaven wreckers. Otherwise I run the risk of literally losing the whole game because most survivors know to do the gen in the middle and distribute gens so that you’re left with the last 3 gens being across the ENTIRE map
Isn't spreading the gens more the same as having bigger maps?
To fix the problem is to add 1 more generator and make maps bigger. We need bigger maps not smaller maps.
Truthfully they need to target 3 genning specifically that doesnt target normal gameplay, or effect M1 killers. This might not work but maybe something like all three generators are connected but progress ar 33% speed, but it makes it to where since they cant be at all three at the same time you can always progress the generators somewhere, and also when you get to the 3 generator scenario they all collect the average of the three gens as well so you cant cheese one to be at 99 either,
What if you made it so that gens start off slower to do but then get faster with each one being done. So maybe the first one is 30% slower, then they get faster to do by 15% for each one done? That way the last one is 30% faster which makes the 3-gen a lot harder to hold. Mainly recommending something like this since it's just a numbers change and would be easy to implement. Not sure what other problems may arise from this, curious to see what other opinions are on a change like this.
I mean, that's not "just a number change". There is no mechanic in the game where gen repair speed is altered depending on the number of gens left. That code will have to to built out.
But the idea, I think, is better than Scott's
Last night, was the first time, I ever had a match with a 3 gen, Nemesis
The match was pushing close to 35 mins 😭😭
Sorry for you. I hope you beat them!
@@anettelma123 We got a 3 out, but holy shit, he was tryna play chess lmao
If gens spawn in corners, and running a killer immediately after leaving one such gen is far more difficult, then the optimal survivor play is to leave the gen super early, to mitigate risk. This is obviously a good strat atm as well, but if this becomes more of a necessity due to gen placement, I'd be worried that the meta will gravitate away from chases and more towards sneaking up on survivors / hiding from killers. Perhaps if decent tiles could be found nearby these gens, it would make this less of an issue but I suspect that we're still going to struggle to find a balancing point between killer effort and survivor survivability where neither a stealth meta nor a 3-gen meta is most viable. Either a survivor is limited on options, in which case the meta will favour stealth on both sides, or a survivor has too many options and the killers will be unable to justify travelling between gens. Perhaps there is a perfect middle ground but it feels like it will end up being reminiscent of the current meta where both stealth and 3-gens are reasonably viable. I guess we're really looking for a golden ratio between chase time and killer travel time, which is going to be difficult to find without one meta being particularly dominant.
Would a solution be to just add a generator? So when 1 gen is remaining there are 4 gens you can work on instead.
In terms of game fun, rather than balance, I think it’ll cut down a lot on fun chases, even though it would probably be more balanced. I’d rather have 3-gens and lose than have a technically balanced game that you don’t actually get to use the main mechanics
What chases? It’s a 3 gen the killer doesn’t chase you for more than 10 seconds unless you’re a free down or are in a dead zone.
This solution makes nurse,blight, and spirit even more necessary and makes m1 killers pointless. Gen spawns in corner>sprint burst pre run and the killer has to commit to losing gens.