WE NEED TO BOTH CHILL - Atheism Debate Gets Unexpectedly Heated
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- DEBATE: Destiny and Armin take a step back and recalibrate after their religion vs atheism debate gets unexpectedly heated.
Date: 24 Feb, 2022
Follow Destiny
►STREAM - www.destiny.gg/bigscreen
►DISCORD - discordapp.com/invite/destiny
►REDDIT - / destiny
►INSTAGRAM - / destiny
►MERCH - shop.destiny.gg/
Atheist Republic
/ atheistrepublic
Twelve Spies - Epidemic Sounds (SONG)
Check Out My Amazon: www.amazon.com/shop/destiny
Buy My Merch: shop.destiny.gg/
00:00 Teasers / Intro
00:46 Armin found a loophole (previous debate)
03:12 Destiny should've pushed back more?
08:00 Religion, rituals, giving credit
12:44 What happens in the afterlife, purpose of existence?
19:04 Is Destiny going too soft on religion?
23:02 "Let's take a step back..."
27:31 Secular version would be better...
#Destiny
![Sean Rii, Karyon, Sharzkii - Taungule [My Love] (Official Music Video)](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eJoMuypbSzQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Destiny and Armin take a step back and recalibrate after their religion vs atheism debate gets unexpectedly heated.
Previous debate w/ Armin from intro segment ►ruclips.net/video/1Z_3HsLsMj4/видео.html
If you're interested in more atheism ►ruclips.net/user/AtheistRepublicvideos
INTRO says ATHIESM instead if Atheism. Love your shit, August.
Vaush is my Lord and Savior!
Destiny is so fucking cringe on religion
Love how D's chat was like "Don't care" when Armin was talking about how aethiests are murdered in Iran, but if the topic of gay people getting stoned in Iran, or even getting called a slur in the west, entire chat would go crazy if someone said "don't care lol". That's how you get exposed for being a white suburban kid real quick.
this happens all the time with marginalized or underrepresented groups people haven’t been culturally programmed to care about lol. it’s so funny but also disheartening (and pretty scary!) to see that people who seemingly align with you ideologically aren’t actually using any kind of moral framework to make their conclusions, but are just freestyling their beliefs and virtue signaling to in-groups.
These are different though. Atheism is an ideology. Being gay is an immutable characteristic. Killing someone over something they cannot change about themselves is far more reprehensible than killing someone over an ideology they hold.
@@deep_and_profound_topics it’s extremely normal. There are probably things you claim to care about but don’t have the brain space to care about when it’s happening in certain circumstances
@@conradkorbol well obviously that’s very different from actively deriding a group of people currently being marginalized by an authoritarian state lmfao.
@@ginnis_14 You think that someone who can mentally NOT accept that there is a deity and therefore killed for it is somehow different from someone who can NOT change their sexuality?
I think Armin nailed it when he realized Destiny doesn't push back harder because of the "cringe" factor.
10:54 the look on Destiny's face says it all
This might be true for a lot of atheists, but steven doesn't seem like the type to care about being seen as "cringe". I think he means what he says on religion
100%, internet has told ppl that its not cool to bash religion anymore, even when it is appropriate to do so, so nobody does anymore.. which is sad, but i also get it, most die-hard atheists are very cringe, but i do think its very important for apostates to have these communities aswell to lean on.. I grew up as atheist in sweden so i dont care that much about religion, but i cant imagine how hard it must be to be an apostate from islam and hearing like "but hey, community is good" when that community literally want to punish you with death because of their prophet that flew to the moon on a horse.
@@bajsmongo2000 the experience of someone living in a muslim nation compared to an EU secular nation is night & day of course, so i think it's simple to understand why an atheist from a muslim country would have a harder stance against religion compared to someone from sweden. i'm saying this as a closeted atheist in a muslim country, it's hell living in here knowing if you leak even a little bit of information about your actual beliefs to someone, they might snitch on you to the authorities & end up getting picked up, & no i'm not making it more dramatic or anything when i say "get picked up by the authorities" i mean it genuinely
i think you're off base, here. i think destiny is saying that a neutered version of religion that can't interfere with progress would be a fine thing to have still exist while Armin seems to be advocating for religion's complete removal from society. I agree with Destiny. i think having a benign form of community and comfort for some is fine. esp. while we are empirically just not at the same levels with those things coming from a secular place. i don't think this an an "eww cringe" thing, but a substantive disagreement on where to take society moving forward.
God I hate chat. Someone is coherently expressing their sincerely held belief that religion is harmful, sharing their negative experiences with religion and saying that they're skeptical of arguments in favor of it, and there's just a wall of stupid shit like:
"Self Report"
"Cringy internet atheists LIKE YOU"
"SOYY Religion BAD"
It's the same shit you see in any community, "This man disagrees with the streamer man, let's mock him!" but it's still disappointing.
Poggers :0
Agreed. I don't watch Twitch, I just watch vods on youtube, and I do wonder if I would enjoy the videos more if chat wasn't there. What makes it even worse is not that they are just mocking people who disagree, but they even mock people they agree with. Even when Destiny makes a small mistake you can guarantee the chat will spam shit like a bunch of children. I guess I'm just getting old :D
Edgy atheist debate bro triggered lmao
Someone trying to have detailed conversation in a stream chat are asking for that though. Also, personal experiences aren't good arguments to make. I say this as a gay man with plenty of personal issues with most religions.
@@Kayzewolf Sure, I'm not opposed to disagreement, or criticism, it's the low effort mocking and circle jerking I hate. If someone said "I think his past trauma may have poisoned his view of religion", that's fine. Saying "SOYY DAE Religion bad!?" is circlejerking.
It just reminds me of that dipshit's chat from "Destiny Defends His Positions Against Leftist Who Made Things Personal
". I don't know his name, but his chat triggered the fuck out of me, and now I'm annoyed seeings aspects of it (to a lesser degree) in Destiny's chat.
i actually thought Armin did better here than Destiny
as an athiest, he did absolutle dogshit. destiny was entirely correct and this armin guys understanding both philosphically and psychologically about how immaterial structures underpin human meaning was simply absent.
@Tube Surfer he is literally trying his best not to be arrogant or dogmatic, he points out the whole reddit athiest thing, so he IS self aware; and he is 100% for muslims who want to build safer communities in india but wants in general to encourage a more intellectual world wherever he can. He saw destiny not pushing back on taftaj on that and he came on, thats it. They both probably agree to almost everything in their worldview.
agree
@Tube Surfer This clip was at a 4, you're at about 11.
Sounds like this conversation where both Steven and Armin agree that there is no rational reason to have all these supernatural beliefs really struck a cord with you huh
Yup
Well, League of legends will make anyone an Atheist. I think this is appropriate content lmao
Especially the early days when it was EXTRA toxic
It’s crazy how SJW Na and Euw League has become. EVERYTHING will get you muted now. Valve games are basically the last bastion for early internet banter in video games. Although CS did add a pseudo-chat filter in the last year… which is definitely concerning.
ruclips.net/video/QIZgwSbekfU/видео.html
@@jeremias-serus I don't feel like having a filter on "kys" is SJW, dude. And I still see brutal flame every day, you just have to be the tiniest bit more creative with it now. Have had friends that say the most awful shit on a daily basis and don't get so much as a chat restriction. League is still a toxic ass game and I don't know how you could possibly think otherwise.
When I stopped playing league I became a theist.
Destiny never loses debate. He just keeps things in mind, okay?
Gigachad
... okay. Anything else?
That's a S tier quality meme lmao
I'll keep that in mind.
Chat is so braindead during this, they are proving his point hard
I think his point is something along the lines of “you also need to emphasize religion’s absurdity every time you mention the good support structures, etc. that have supposedly come from it because if not, religious people might feel like their beliefs are indirectly being validated”
He's clearly biased based on his bad experience with Islam, which is understandable but ironically it shows itself as preachy and dogmatic. Also, his bias seems to hinder his ability to accept destiny's point of religion having a clear historically documented value.
Yes exactly right. You don't want to inadvertently lead people into thinking that you support the supernatural unfalsifiable claims religion makes when discussing it's positive socially cohesive properties.
I liken this to the cautionary tail of our boy J.P. He has some interesting perspectives on religion in which he tries to reconcile religion with it's most scathing critiques. He argues that religious texts ought be viewed as stories or meta narratives rather than actual fact. But he does a piss poor job at making this distinction clear most of the time and it's why he's often ridiculed for saying things like "everyone is religious whether they know it or not". Like yeah, that's a dumbf*ck statement if you don't explain how you could have come to that conclusion.
His definition of religious is basically equivalent to having guiding principles which are derived from longstanding cultural norms bourn out of religiosity which we still derive immense value from.
P.S. i don't agree with J.P. on... blah blah blah, just explainging... blah blah. You get the idea
Literally who cares if religious people feel validated in their religion? Outside of degenerate second and third world country religions like Islam and whatever ritualistic shit other countries have going on, Christianity at least is for the most part a net positive and radical religious folk in the West are an extreme minority and the extreme majority of Christians conform to Western beliefs, so much so that the morals and ethics of an Atheist and a Jew or a Christian in America are likely identical to one another across the board.
@@Shadowh8ter This is so wrong on so many levels. US religiosity fuels tones of negative outcome if we're talking about opposition to abortion, that is most correlated with the christian faith. We can also talk about the discrimination of lgbtq+ minorities, that is mostly fueled by christian religious thought in the us. We can talk about people's sexual repression in general as it relates to religious views of sex being barred from unmarried people. Don't stuff your head in the sand and ignore these issues just because we're not stoning gay people. It's all about perspective. US is a prosperous, and rich country. Progressivism comes with the territory but that doesn't mean we can't identify the smaller but still present issues with religions in the us
@@darestone3335 I don't think there's anything to support that atheists are better people than theists. If we're gonna get "scientific" you need to start there, and then once you prove atheism makes better people than theism, we can talk about what to do about that. But since we know you can't prove that it would make more since to tackle individual issues as opposed to religion.
The story about him trying to kill himself is both heartbreaking and it also makes sense from a completely pragmatic standpoint what is why I think that most religious people have to have some sort of cognitive dissonance
I'm an atheist and also terrified of hell. That shit sticks with you.
It does make sense in a Muslim point of view, but in a Christian standpoint or most other religions other than probably buddhism, trying to commit suicide isn't right, because the point is to make the most out of your life, in a Christian point of view, you trust in Jesus to make changes in your life, and you just live it, the least will be greatest, meaning the person who gives the most or sacrifices the most of their life, whoever gives away their possessions, help the poor and needy will be greater, but doesn't mean you'll be saved, salvation is from God, Jesus alone
@LivingToaster13 It absolutely makes sense from a Christian view. I had the same thoughts when I was ten. Why would I deal with all the shit here (even if jesus could help me out) when I can just skip it and be happy in heaven?
also funny AF
Well of course they have cognitive dissonance they're aware people don't agree with them. You're using that term wrong. Cognitive dissonance is the feeling you have right now after I told you that. It's not a bad thing. How you reduce the dissonance is the important thing.
I think Destiny was using the Peterson strategy, maybe unknowingly.
He argues that religion offers some good things, like community. When Armin pushes back by saying we can get those things outside religion, Destiny says that he isn't defending religion.
You're pointing towards a natural conclusion, Destiny, which is that we should tolerate religion for communal reasons. Don't run away from that when you get confronted for it.
this 100%
All destiny is saying is that we got rid of the utility that often comes with religion without constructing anything to provide those same utilities on the same level. He's never said or even implied that these things are unique to religion.
@@FirstConflict But he continues to push back when Armin says we can construct these.
It's identical to Peterson saying there are problems with women in the work place, then gets ultra offended when you reach his logical conclusion which is that women shouldn't be in the workplace.
you worded this better than I could
@@kennikia2234 I think you're just misunderstanding why he's pushing back. I feel that the actual contention is destiny feels like Armin is saying not only can we have these utilities without religion but we SHOULD. Given that he's explained what he meant clearly multiple times something that Peterson doesn't do very well a lot of the time I don't think it's accurate to compare his engagements to this one. I perfectly understand your point of view though, I just disagree.
That story about him almost killing himself is astounding. If only people had that much belief in climate change.
That's what happens when you get brainwashed at a young age.
bro what XD
Climate change is the equivalent to the apocalypse among the fanatical alarmists
Rose Wrist, Taftaj, etc., are way too idealistic on this topic and desperate to present communitarian utility from something that doesn’t have an intrinsic monopoly on said utility and has a lot of other problems: organised religious dogma. If Destiny wants to play this Jordan Peterson game, that’s fine. It’s wrong, however. Seriously. Go to the more religious countries, look at the over all structure, and then complain that the irreligious West doesn’t have this, and stay there. I’m sure Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are eager to have more people seeking dogma and “structure” while looking down on Western youth for not getting married young, having litres of children and keeping quiet about their issues, as is the case in most repressive societies. Yet when people in large swathes seek asylum, or a better way of life, they end up in pluralistic Western countries where religion is actually in decline and not flocking to get asylum in places like Iran ... even the Alt Right gets this and exploits it as a talking point. Reality here is that while the agitators in the audience are making their pathetic and mindless "fedora" references, the primary statements Armin has made here regarding secularism; the ability to have culture, community and socially worthwhile rituals without being contingent on theological dogma; the insanely backward laws around the world that often target atheists the most - these are all factually accurate and not really up for debate.
@@rep-vile Produce a solution to what? A society where we have civil rights, quality of life and safety nets for collective betterment? A society where we openly critique problems more than we’re allowed to anywhere else in the world, which yields progress? We’re already doing better on these metrics than hyper traditional and religious societies. That’s why asylum applications move here and not in the other direction. Also, this whole “give us a solution” argument assumes that there’s something seriously wrong with modern Western and increasingly irreligious societies when there’s plenty that also binds us together in more novel interests and collective pursuits. It’s a virtue of pluralism, which also happens to accommodate the religious. It’s not as though people having fewer children and a different pace of life is an inherently good or bad thing. Let the trad cons panic about that. We’re no longer in the days of old when people had to get married young on account of backward societal pressures and have a dozen children, of which a good few wouldn’t even make it to adulthood and perhaps a marginal few would truly accomplish something to elevate the group further.
Also, freer societies have more latitude for dissent, expressing discontentment and being critical of the status quo in pursuit of betterment. This isn’t a bad thing. It’s a good thing. Hyper religious and conservative societies don’t have this feature because most are living in repressive conditions and are unable to express their dissatisfaction on account of societal pressure and potentially dangerous consequences. It’s not all that different from despotic states where corrupt leaders have supposed 100% approval ratings. Of course such metrics aren't actually a reflection of the facts on the ground, but the participants and structures of such societies result in such figures because transparency tends come with severe risks. Similarly, the Peterson crowd virtue signalling about women being more unhappy than ever today don't really have an honest or accurate point of reference for comparison seeing as back in the "good old traditional and religious days" women had to generally keep their mouths shut and had few options outside of just going along with the status quo. Hell, rewind that story a bit further and women weren't even allowed to participate in the political process, so good luck getting any nuanced survey and oversight of how they're truly feeling as a social demographic.
Agreed
This is something where Destiny isn't consistant. You don't need a solution to make a point about a perceived problem.
Both Rose and Taftaj are very young and have never experienced the religious oppression lgbt people experienced just over a decade ago. They're taking the neutered and defanged version of religion around us at the moment for granted, something I see a lot on a lot of issues lefties talk about.
I’m sure destiny could always just say he’s doing the devils advocate thing - but it seems to reeeeally show his contrarian attitude by arguing really shit points to abandon them a second later - against points he would likely make himself if arguing against a theist 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah definitely contrarian
Is destiny an atheist?
I wasn't expecting Destiny to be so bad at the topic of religion. Armin crushed him through and through.
mmmmm ok
Destiny is very cringe
Not really lol. Armin didn't properly tackle Destiny's position at all. Destiny's position being that Religion currently serves a purpose in society that's not being replaced with non-religious alternatives, and because he doesn't see the church as a demonstrable bad Destiny see's no reason to actively try to dismantle it.
It's Armin's job to explain how religious institutions social benefits can be viably replaced with other things, how that can be reasonably done in society, and justify why that should actively be pursued, none of which he did in this discussion at all.
He even talked out of his ass and tried to act like countries like Sweden are non-religious when like well over half of the countries population is Christian.
Here's an objective fact, Religion provides a good and easy avenue to build a social community with others you don't have in your immediate area or family, and religion provides a good and easy avenue to give people who desperately need purpose in life a purpose along with a moral code to hopefully not be bad.
If an atheist like Armin tries to attack either of those two points, which this guy did constantly, their position and opinion immediately becomes irrelevant because you aren't an agnostic or an atheist anymore, you're an anti-theist and any position you take is irrelevant because it's blatantly obvious your desire isn't to better society it's to destroy religion which are not the same goals and won't produce the same results.
I mean everything Armin said was correct but they didn't really disagree on anything. It was just a discussion about methodology.
@@Shadowh8ter Religion is a crutch and needs to be overcome, not just left alone because right now it's not hurting anyone all that much in our society. It's very much hurting people in Armin's society, and it did so in our society until very recently as well.
It's a crutch that a lot of us were beaten with and just because it's been pacified and defanged doesn't mean it shouldn't be dismantled. You could argue at best that replacing relgious communities with something else should be a parallel process rather than a subsequent one, and that's fine but that's just about as much as you can argue.
This lets just leave this huge social issue to rot in our backside, when it can very easily be weaponized again against our own people is s horrible idea. It's also allowing for generations of people to develop and foster irrational ways of thinking, which we need more of in our society not less.
If you make a claim about something that is unknowable, and you are claiming to know it that is a fucking false claim. If the answer cannot be known then no one should be claiming to know it.
Prove it.
That goes both ways though. That's the whole reason Destiny distinguishes between the two. You can't claim it to be false any more than one can claim it to be right.
@@KTslinger If X is really unknowable, then the claim "I know X" must be false, because X is unknowable. Regardless if X itself is actually true or false. Which no one can know.
In other words, you don't have to claim the opposite, in order to point out someones claim to be unfounded.
@@KTslinger If I understand your point yest someone who claims to know there are no gods is also making a false claim. However, one doesn't have to make the claim there are no gods to counter the claim that there are gods. The correct position for anything that cannot be known is to state that you do not know.
@@losmanzani6849 That is what I am saying. I feel as though that was Destiny's whole point.
Armin kept asking why he did not push back against unknowns as hard as he would against purely false statements.
B/C they are different. Not that it makes the religious argument good, but it is simply different.
August cutting the content off like that at the end proves we're at the point where content rationing is necessary. When will this drought end....
The reason he tried to kill himself is because he literally thought that people believe in the religion as truth, when in reality religion is a game you play just like League of Legends
I'm not sure, but I definitely see the connection between playing League of Legends and killing yourself.
Yes, if pointing out that LoL was not real would get you killed, imprisoned or destroy your social life and start wars over it. And people that are safe from it, will tell you "pointing the falsehood of LoL is kinda cringe, everybody knows it's false" when in reality, most of the world acts like it's true
When you are deep in religion it is presented to you as an ultimate truth and that is backed by social pressure and fear, you don't just "play it"
I think part of the problem is that people don't have that much experience living in a dogmatic religion have a hard time believing that those people actually believe in those this as truth, and how big the pressure to believe it all is
prove it boo boo
Those catholics really did a number on Destiny. Let it go man.
So you were a Catholic and let it go as well?
So he should debate someone who does charity due to their religious values because "lol religion is stupid" ? Perhaps he should focus on the actual outcomes and less on being some egotistical debater, unlike some streamers and online people.
I think you can freely deny the religion you hate all you want, but don’t pretend you’re any different of all the bad things you narc on them about. That’s the sum of it. You’re not better than religion, or profound because you’re excited to tear down a hundred year old philosophy humans have followed.
The truth is that Christian religions are always the ones who are most giving, while atheist are the more selfish ones. Christianity is a guidebook to not be greedy or selfish. But yet atheists take one piece of it, and mention this one specific thing like homosexuality, and from there, they end up abandoning everything the religion was meant to teach you.
At the end of the day, religion may be imperfect, but it’s something that’s made to build community and structure. Even when you’re on deaths door, most people always try to speak to a higher being, to help them through the stress they’re in. It’s level of thought one doesn’t understand, until they’re with certain parameters as I just mentioned.
Hate religion all you want, but it will always exist in other forms. You can never escape it.
@@malbasedvalentine3210 cool assertions.
Dude was on point with everything. I think the 'reddit cringe'-argument was spot on. When I was becoming an atheist and reading books on atheism when I was 16ish, I was advocating it a lot, now I don't really care. Most of my criticism was entirely justified back then tho, and still is.
I mean the difference being that you and I live in a largely secular society where it's not something we need to think about a lot. There is this atmosphere on the left where whenever religion is criticized, it's usually used as a platform to discriminate against brown people and so we started associating criticism of religion with racist attacks. This is a luxury of a sort.
Armin comes from a considerably different background so it's a lot more siginificant and prominent in his life and surroundings, so he's still absolutely justified in his pursuit.
Also, like 15 years ago, I would argue our society was a lot less secular and the anti theist arguments back then were a lot more justified. Younger people on the left have never experienced a lot of the things that were relatively recent (persecution of lgbt by religion, "promise rings" in highschool, rampant std and lack of sexual education with all the consequences, a lot of the anti atheism sentiment that was present in the 90s and 2000s (and earlier ofc)), so it's kinda easy for them to tone police and moralize other atheists who promote atheism more actively.
Right
Funny how a book supposedly written by god himself has such stupid loopholes in it lol
No one claims the bible was written by God, the first five books of Old Testament is attributed to Moses, the gospels Mather, Mark, Luke and John. There are chapters of the bible that nothing more than correspondences between different churches.
I don’t know where you heard the claim ‘God wrote the bible’ but it was definitely from someone with a limited or non existant understanding of at least the Abraham religions because none make that claim.
@@1601tgc He could've been talking about the Quran, which is the direct word of God, although it doesn't really matter who wrote it, the fact that your holy book has even 1 loophole is enough for me to discount it.
@@1601tgc Maybe you should actially listen to Christians. Some of them do say that the bible is the word of God, not written by God, but written by divinely inspired people who had direct access to God.
@@Pharomid you havnet read the full bible and its obvious. Im not even religious but claiming that even the concept of a loophole could exist in a book written as esoterically as the bible. It’s a complete mix of poetry, history, gods spoken word, prophets and regular people. It’s from the perspective of multiple individuals, and how tf would a book written like that be completely consistent
@@RanEncounter no they don’t - letters to the Corinthians for example is just a book of correspondence haha wake up
Destiny, afraid of atheist cringe, reaches Jordan Peterson levels of cringe
Could you explain that comment?
@@fesimco4339 JP has probably made the argument that young men are lost and have no direction because we are losing religion which is where we find community.
Peterson doesn't use the word cringe to invalidate his opponents.
@@fesimco4339 PERFECT!!!¡
@@Pharomid I still don't get how that explains the original comment.
Armin is a true atheist. Love him.
And like a true atheist, he just "hopes for the best" when making something that's been in the works for 10,000 years.
Funny how he has so much faith in that unproven better world
@@alexanerose4820 the world is getting better/peaceful as its getting more secular. And athiest countries, Japan, china, Scandinavia are almost too peaceful. What are you on about when you talk about faith? Look at Israel vs Palestine, look at sunni vs shia, look at Sudan. Atheism doesn't guarantee peace but at least there's a chance. Religion will however always 100% lead to some kind of conflict.
@@TheBlaze4000 China is too peaceful you say?
@@Johnnybsknees Before communism was a thing. And even today crime rates in china don't compare to Christian countries like south America.
@@TheBlaze4000 I don't think you have been paying attention to the *SECULAR POLITICAL CONFLICT* in America that's almost bringing it to a civil war. The conflict in Ukraine *SECULAR* the crisises in Europe regarding immigration and Brexit *SECULAR* The warlords in Africa resources *SECULAR* The issue of possible war in taiwan *SECULAR* especially witha *SECULAR COMMUNIST-ish STATE* called china
So my good clueless friend what exactly are *YOU* on about when you say faith will always lead to conflict cuz I don't see a church anywhere near these issues ;)
I find it weird that so many people here are in agreement with armin when armin's argument is literally to just be standoffish ashole that. Someone says "yea i think church is nice because it gives me an opportunity to see my extended family" and armin wants destiny to jump on that statement like you don't need to go to church to do that did you know Christian killed this many people in the holocaust" or someone goes "listen Christianity gives me a sense of purpose in life that keeps me going" and destiny would have to says something like "thats illogical you should just shear willpower yourself through life" to make armin happy. All that does is make you a weirdo nobody wants to talk to because you are constantly trying to have an argument that nobody started. Im sorry but a mention of something isn't an invitation to just start trashing on it.
So are you saying you do need the church for that ??? armin's point is that there are more healthy ways to do these things than religion and thats okey to point out.
@@getusome6776 genuine question. how is it unhealthy?
from my understanding theists can live through live quite happily without hurting others, which seems to me to be a pretty optimal outcome.
@@jamesthecoolguy67 well i cant talk for armin but from what i have seen myself it often turns people irrational and from there it tends to get worse so even if some people dont end up like that i still think it does way more harm than good the history of religion is full of greed death and wars.
TLDR: Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Destinys functionalist argumentation is false in the most cookie cutter way. The dude, Armin, was exactly right in pointing out what is wrong with it at the beginning of their exchange. He should not have let go of his point between 8:00 and 12:40, but rather challenge the validity of destinys response.
Exactly
24:30
The question Armin should ask here is how do we distinguish between different levels of good?
So for example, a muslim may say that it's good to donate to charity. Sure.
But then another muslim may say that it's good to behead women that wear clothes that are too revealing.
How do we determine which one is better than the other, if both of them draw claims based on unfalsifiable sets of propositions by that religion?
By asking what the person values. If someone doesn't care about human suffering then you can't
@@mariomario1462
I’m not saying I agree with this POV… all I’m saying is that he floundered on that point
@@armaan1091 how did he flounder? I'm pretty sure he said exactly what I did
I completely agree with the guy who came on here. I'm not saying we should DEMAND all the people who draw some energy from these "unfalsifiable claims" to completely change themselves. But calling this specific behavior irrational is only appropriate, because that's how the whole logic works. If you wanna claim something, you should prove it or else it is assumed your claim is false. And if you still claim it with no proof, you're just being irrational about it. Whether or not it is possible to prove the negative claim is irrelevant. Now I think it's perfectly fine to be emotional or irrational about some things (when it's appropriate). Most of us are not perfectly rational. For instance I don't choose my hobbies or who I fall in love with based on logical calculations. But suggesting that faith should somehow be treated differently when it comes to rules of logic to anything else is just moronic. If you're agnostic, you're just atheist. There is no difference. And there is nothing wrong with being atheist. You can still be respectful to people who like a little bit of irrationality in this aspect of life and who don't harm anybody else, while being atheist yourself. You don't need a different word for it, making it look like most atheist people are just unaccepting morons.
There absolutely is a difference between agnosticism and atheism.
@@Zinian The distinction is worthless.
@@Bai_Su_Zhen how atheism is the confirmation of the non existence of a God or God's or higher being. Agnosticism is the proclamation that it is unknowable. So the wombo combo of the two an Agnostic atheist , plays out as " to my knowledge there is no God however I can never truly know that I just firmly believe this." You can even be an Agnostic Christian.
If you want to prove something you need to prove it or else it is assumed your claim is false? That's not how any of this works, you atheists seriously need to read up on Philosophy.
By your logic you shouldn't believe in an outside world because you can't even prove it to yourself.
Your faith that anything outside of your experience exists is fundamentally that, a faith. The only reason you believe in it is because you would psychologically disintegrate if you didn't, despite it not being rationally justified whatsoever.
I actually disagree, in the rules of logic you need some axioms to build on. These axioms should be unfalsifiable per definition (otherwise you can use your other axioms to make a statement about the statement).
Destiny lost this debate
22:50 Destiny back-pedals from his dogshit argument that you can’t derive meaning from a Turtle’s fart resulting in the Big Bang, meanwhile you can derive meaning from a God who sent himself to sacrifice himself to save us from himself.
That’s a bit much for any logical person.
That christian premise is illogical. But possibility of God is logical. The probability of God causing big bang is far logical
I've filled the hole most people fill with faith with life learning. Many communities, nothing but purpose, and give me to tools to succeed in life.
@Purple Senpai Is that you Ty Lopez? 😂
@@GreezmunkyTV KNAAAWWLIIIJJ
What community have your ever found that’s even closer to religion?
That doesn’t mean your copium is factual
Destiny is actually going with the “that’s the way it is“ argument? He better never lecture someone on logical fallacies ever again.
He's finally maturing :')
Did he say that? From my understanding and assumption, Destiny would push back if someone used religion to excuse a certain claim or make a conclusion (like pushing a law on religious belief) but for someone to just believe/practice something that has a net positive to society, it would be actively harmful to push back on it for... What reason? Cause they can't prove their core beliefs?
I've seen Destiny go hard on people who try to say "because it goes against God" or so in debates, but isn't about to invalidate a religion if it's not relevant to the actual topic at hand.
I was thinking the exact same, came here to see if anyone commented already.
he's not making a "that's the way it is" argument. they're having a substantive disagreement about how to carry forward with society. destiny thinks a benign form of religion can be a good thing for society. he'd just want these religious practices to be secular. Armin actually agrees, it seems but differs on some of the particulars. when Destiny said "it's been this way for thousands of years yada yada" he was using it to support his point that people would be really resistant to finding meaning in life the way more secular humanist type thinkers usually would. in order for it to be an appeal to tradition fallacy, Destiny would have to be saying "we always did it, so we should keep doing it." but instead he said "it seems to have demonstrated it's utility, so we should keep at least this part until we having a meaningful replacement." which is different. the first says do it bc it's old. the latter says do it cuz it's useful. which is valid. though he isn't using it as an endorsement for all religion, obviously.
His argument is "well, majority of people like it" 😂
6:17
Are we gonna pretend, for one second, for a fraction of a second, that this is at ALL religion related? We're not gonna look at the decreasing middle class economy at all, we are gonna jump straight to God?
Nothing to do with disposable income, nothing to do with opportunities?
Seriously, how unbelievably stupid is that? I want a Destiny fan to explain this to me please, I really wanna know what fans are thinking.
i dont know if it has anything to do with oportunities or economic stability, look at south america, destroyed economies yet people there get married at young ages and keep stable comunities all because they retain high levels of religious followers.
@@Kan-ova Would you also then say that it is indeed a religious issue?
And are you a Destiny fan?
Edit: Nvm i can't read, you do think it is
@@roberteriksen6434
It's a religious tradition & seems to losing its appeal in secular countries.
Watch destiny but only because comes across in good faith , I guess I'm right wing on the political spectrum
That people get married later? I assume that there are a myriad for reasons for this, but dont you think less christianity could be a factor for that?
I would argue that if Norway was still as religious as`it was 50-100 years ago, younger people would get married earlier and more often.
Most likely not AS early and often as they actually did in 1900-1950s, (due to other societal factors) but definitely more than now.
Do you disagree? Or did i misunderstand?
I don't think it's stupid at all. Religious communities promote marriage and raising families.
Making claims on things that cannot be verified and teaching that to people as fact sounds so dangerous to me. It’s teaching people to believe absurdities despite reality. I see it as religion ruining peoples minds, disconnecting them from the reality they are living. Especially teaching this to children is abusive and immoral.
Calling it abusive and immoral is a reach, and most religious feel they get their morals from these absurdities and to call them immmoral for teaching morals seems counterintuitive, furthermore do you think its fair to call humans that have lived throughout history as abusive?
Wow, chat is actually so pathetic during these debates lol
Ever since this dude started playing league 18 hours a day he lost the ability to debate. He thinking how to feed in his lane constantly while other person is talking.
This has nothing to do with the video, but I saw someone ask Destiny if Dunkin is better than Starbucks and I wanted to address that:
I'm answering this from a pure coffee perspective (latte/iced coffee drinks), so if you're someone who drinks fraps or blended drinks then this doesn't apply to you because you don't drink coffee, you drink sugar lmaooo but anyways....
The short answer is yes Starbucks is better, but the long answer is that you get more quantity with Dunkin, versus the quality you get from Starbucks.
I normally drink coffee black, so when I go to either I usually just get ice coffee with sugar free vanilla and everytime I get my iced coffee from Dunkin I can just immediately taste the difference in bean quality when compared to Starbucks.
So, in the end it kinda comes down to if you want to pay like $4-$5 for a 16oz medium (grande) of some good medium roast coffee at SB versus $3-$4 for a 24oz medium of some light/medium roast blend, that sometimes taste watery, at Dunkin.
Lastly, I was a barista at SB for a long time as well, so I know the quality of beans they get and from what I've seen at the Dunkin I usually go to their bean quality just isn't there, and the way they make their drinks is very odd and it seems like they don't really use espresso in their latte drinks which is crazy to me.
Tl;Dr
Starbucks is definitely better than Dunkin if you're ordering coffee/latte based drinks. If you drink fraps or blended drinks you don't drink coffee and can go to either because you won't notice a difference.
Armin is good. And i agree with his view.
Inb4 reupload to correct the misspelling of "atheism" in the beginning
Atheism isn't a norm in Scandinavian countries there's good research to back this up. Religion has just for a very long time been a more private thing here and still often is but people's belief in other various supernatural things are still far more common than pure atheists.
Dude… all western countries are abandoning religion. Even the US
@@NothingElseMattersJMlol wtf this dude is actaully tell the truth people in there think trolls are still real and stuff
@@NothingElseMattersJM Many are abandoning organized religion but they just get sucked into cults and new-age stuff and hold other spiritual beliefs.
Atheism, true atheism, is genuinely rare. and people who truly are tend to be pieces of shit.
Armin is a great dude
I keep hearing "nutso Erudite" when Armin mentioned notsoerudite lol
For anyone interested in how religion shaped freaking everything ..Gresham College channel has a ton of religious history talks by Alex Ryrie that blew my mind. He is one of the most compelling lecturers I have ever heard. WOW.
religion is based
Hm okay by using illusion of casualty
I'm down bad August please give me more Destiny content please. 😣😫😩💦
Armin is awesome!!!!!
1. Agnostics might as well call themselves atheists, because in theory the words are different( one refers to knowledge, one to belief, except most agnostics use it to say they are unaffiliated), but in practice unless you are 100% sure that god exists you're not going to heaven.
2. Churches are good for forming communities. That's a salient point. However, the community forms not because of people believing in total bs, but because all of the people around them do/have interest in X. You can replace 'believing in x' with anything, LITERALLY ANYTHING and with enough people it will create a community (anime, video games, sports, cars, card games, dice, watching birds, working out). People also form communities around bad things such as their hatred for juice or religion.
3. Destiny doesn't give pushback because of optics, which is really dumb. But he will give pushback against flat Earthers, Holo live (that one event from ww2) deniers and anti vaxxers. But Steven doesn't realize that these people are the same as religious people, except that they replaced a deity with their respective conspiracy (they will even completely refuse any evidence that goes against their claims). And in my opinion the level of "cringe" expunged into the atmosphere is the same as when he argues about religion.
4. I'd say that modern political ideologies have replaced, and are far superior to, religion. Because most of these groups don't deny objective reality, they just use it to draw different conclusions. Believing in an invisible wizard is denying objective reality, the same way believing that there is a living cow on Mars is denying reality.
I'd say, and this is my opinion, that the only bad ideologies are authoritarian ones where god- I mean the government punishes you for not being good enough.
5. Religion, while saying some okayish things, says a lot of completely insane stuff. Like it's okay to commit genomecide if the people you are unliving are "evil", this is something Hit(lur) would shamelessly steal 2000 years later. Not to mention the treatment of slaves, women, and children (young girls and all that, let's just say that a lot of Israelite men from back then would be chatting with Chris Hanson). Also hate everyone in order to go to Heaven.
6. The church becoming against slavery in the 15th century is cute and all, but for a church that worships an all loving God, they are 1500 years too late. The reason why a lot of churches are anti slavery and pro gay, is the same reason most republicans are no longer openly racist. It isn't socially acceptable anymore.
7. The main reason why religion is a sensitive subject for people is because of its scale. If religion was a new thing, every single person on the internet would making fun of religious people for believing in a an all powerful, all knowing, invisible being. I find the description of God as a being that is outside of time, space and matter, very hilarious. Since that is a description of something that doesn't exist.
TL;dr religion is fundamentally outdated and illogical concept/ideology, that is based on falsehoods and unprovable claims, with a little tiny sprinkle of truth.
1. Sorta. Atheists tend to proactively push against the existence of a god or structured religion while agnostics are a neutral party that would argue for people to have a right to believe in what they wish as long as they do not push it on others, because no side can prove themselves. You could say it's the same or practiced as one identity, but your whole comment proves otherwise.
2. Sure, but the point is what religion as a community builder tries to have a bigger net positive when it comes to morality check, purpose, charity, and a larger sense of community. This isn't perfect, of course, as a lot of bigotry and superiority comes with most religions but there isn't an immediate replacement for a lot of people. Hobby communities do help but they're not a perfect replacement either with similar (and perhaps worse) toxicity and divisiveness. And while they do some charity, I'd argue there's more charity per member and per program in religious organizations, especially local communities.
3. He HAS pushed back when people have used religious excuses (e.g. "it goes against God") but if it's not directly involved or there's a net positive, then there's no benefit to push on it; it's not just optics. E.g. if someone does charity cause of their religion, do you then tell them their religion is false/pointless? This isn't agreeing that their religion is real, this is merely not trying to cause needless harm without any benefit to gain. You're basically like the "well actually" person that kills the vibe at a party.
4. What? People play for a side and will distort reality to support their political team. Whether it's the right saying their election was stolen or the far left making up victims, people don't care about facts and just want whatever validates their ideology. How is that different or even better? wtf
5, 6, 7... Okay, and? There's literally atheists that claim things are good/evil and hating woman, gays, etc wasn't exclusively a religious thing. Anyone alive in early online communities (especially gaming) would know this. This isn't a dig against religion, this is a problem with society, and that nothing in these 3 points give any alternatives but only focus on the bad parts of religion. Like cool, but irrelevant since you're fighting some argument that no one made.
Hell, your TL;DR is a point that neither person in this video disagrees with...
@@Kayzewolf I´m not going to watch the video because it´s going to be 30 minutes of Destiny saying that the end justifies the means, and the other guy going "nah".
1. You can push against religion and argue for people being able to believe in at the same time. That´s what most atheists do, there are some people that want to abolish religion those are anti theists. Then there are atheists that don´t want to get yelled at the family gathering so they say they are agnostic. They answer a yes or no question with I don´t know, even tho it´s a question about belief not knowledge.
2. Religion is a hobby. Nowadays in the west anyway, you didn´t really have choice back then, and in some places you still don´t have a choice. The immediate replacement would be different for everyone. So do you want me to list a few hundred different things people would do instead of believing in a wizard?
3. I´ve watched Destiny "debate" a Christian apologetic recently, the guy made the same casual creationist bs claims, Destiny said "I´ll keep that in mind" and that´s about as much pushback as the guy got. I´d say that spreading falsehoods outweighs charity, "he rapes but he saves lives" argument. "so what that his world view is based on lies, he gave 50 dollars to his church, those are totally going to go to the party at need, and not towards financing the pastors new car". "so what that he thinks vaccines cause autism, and what´s wrong with him telling this to all of his friends? It´s okay because he does charity"
4. The Ideology itself isn´t based on falsehood, neither are the conclusions. The conclusion could be wrong, but it isn´t false. There are beliefs outside of the ideology/in spite of it, that members of the ideology believe in, such as:
Thinking that the election was stolen isn´t a part of the conservative ideology. It´s part of Trump denomination. Lying isn´t a part of the progressive ideology. It´s part of the BLM(?) denomination.
A similar thing happened to a lot religious people in the west, they started to believe that gay people were actual people. This literally went completely against their ideology but they still believe it.
This is different because:
a) an all knowing being isn´t involved
b) most beliefs in such ideologies are not objectively wrong
This is better because:
a) in most arguments people will not object to something that is verifiably true (I know most of the comment section is terminally online, but people irl usually don´t reject evidence)
b) they can´t make the ultimate appeal to authority
5. This point has to do with Destiny often mentioning that we shouldn´t throw all of religion out the window because it sometimes says stuff that isn´t horrible. How about we get our morality from something that doesn´t try justify genomecide? Most animated films, or children´s books. "but they´re based on religious stories" so what? they threw all of the evil stuff and kept the normal stuff, so why use and believe the source material, if the copy is better?
I think morality is objective, as in, morality is a set of rules that prevents conflict and harm among individuals and groups in order for us to live long enough to reproduce.
6. This point has to do with the church being full of shit. Do you want me to make an alternative to the church being full of shit? Don´t be?
7. This point has to do with point 3, as to why he, and a lot of other people, doesn´t give pushback against religion.
Tl:dr sorry for the schizo post, but if it isn´t coherent, I haven´t slept in 20 hours.
this is vaush-level pretentious
Atheist jibberish
August down bad posting this convo
BOTH of you sound like you are still trying to make sense of your thinking reasoning system while trying to separate it from the belief systems you learned while growing up. Thank you for such an honest and personal debate.
I read the title as "autism debate" so I was VERY confused for most of this.
every destiny debate is an autism debate
Damn i hVent seen destiny get roasted in his own comments like this in a minute. I dont think he did bad necessarily but nothing he said particularly stuck with me as rebuttals to the criticisms of his challenger. Like, the stuff about unknowable vs false was good, but everything else was like damn bro lemme get you some water
There's no evidence for God and there is no evidence for no God. So I look at both sides dealing in absolutes and don't understand. Find a balance between science and your intuition and decide if your life is worth living from a place of love or a place of hate - because there is a balance between those 2 things as well. And I personally believe there is way too much hate in the world right now.
@@sisyphus1326 and I'm willing to sit with those people and try to help them understand.
I would LOVE to interview you Atheist Republic!
Chat was particularly cringe this debate
Hitchens taught me all I need to know about the atrocities committed in the name of religion. If you give religion credit for the good, you also have to acknowledge the bath water.
Hitchens was a moron. Any ideology can have fanatics and can be abused by any person. Nationalism has killed more people than religion ever could. Do you think all wars were fought for religion alone? What about ww1 or ww2 none of those were religious? Most wars of Greece and Rome werent fought for religion either. Communist China and the Soviet union committed atrocities way worse than religion ever could. Same with North Korea. Hitchens was a moron sorry not sorry
Agree, hitchens is a moron. If you think religion is the case for all evil, you are very naiv. Its called human nature my boi. We always believe in something when times are harsh. Doesnt mean that the thing we believe in is flawed. Does mean we are flawed.
@@chirho8657 All ideologies are equal COPIUM
@@arseniz1765 16-31 million deaths from ALL religion throughout history vs the 45 million people killed by mao in 4 years alone LOL
@@laszlokiss483 so all wars and atrocities are caused by religion? That's a big cope my friend. There were wars and atrocities before the crusades my smoothe brain friend. I love how you zoned in on communism yet that wasn't my full point. What about the vietnam war, korean war, world war 1, world war 2, all the civil wars in Africa, the rhowandan genocide, Napoleonic Wars. Wars in greece, Rome and Alexander's wars. None of them fought because of religion. Can you disprove this?
Jesus christ destiny really has no clue what he's talking about when he talks nonsense about religion. Just because something Is religious doesn't mean it "can't be false" this absurd. He's worse than vaush on this. Specific claims REUQIRE evidence and no evidence to the contrary makes something false or not true. Simple. This isnt difficult. Religion makes real world claims and it doesn't get a special bubble. U have to prove it Is possible first and it's not "unknowable" nor does it require religion. You can't say something "exists outside of..." something when u didn't demonstrate it's possible FIRST. Destiny is doing the Jordan Peterson cringe.
The words in these scriptures and bible only have perceived validity because a all powerful all knowing being had influenced them if their is one error in that all power full and all knowing being that’s means all scriptures and bibles can’t claim to be the truth that’s why destiny has to say everything is perfect / aren’t false
nice!
Kiiinda think Armin handled this and actually won it soundly. Nice to see the talk though but yeah he definitely had the higher edge here.
Lol okay like when proclaimed religion hjiacked science or that renaissance painters were doing it out of the fact that it was religion
This guy is just the uncucked destiny
Armin is on point and I hope Destiny gets back on the attack
Attacking someone for something that gives a net positive is moronic. Pushing back when someone uses religion as an excuse for bigotry is different than pushing back on someone doing charity because of their religious values. The former has actual reasons to combat while the latter is just causing harm.
@@Kayzewolf It's only a net positive in the very short term, long term it's fucking cancer.
@@ic3kwl2 Atheism has been a cancer everytime it rises lol
@@Kayzewolf Religion, a net positive? Really? I'd love to hear you tell that to the shit ex-Muslims had to go through. Even in 1st world countries you have terribly asinine shit like the constant mindfuck a Jehovah's Witness has to go through of not stepping even one bit out of line or their entire community gets swooped from them in an instant, and no you can't make lasting friendships with non-JWs without getting constantly harassed from your local kingdom hall eventually finding out about it.
This Jordan Petersoning of religion is fucking cringe. You can talk about not throwing the baby out of the bathwater without unnecessarily going way too far into the "but net positive tho" bullshit.
@@Kayzewolf lol Religion is NOT a net positive.
Could you please put the ads at the start so I can listen to it in peace whilst going to sleep for fucks sake
i know stevens gf is swedish, but he speaks with a weird authority on sweden without knowing much :P , this coming from a swede.
Honestly I feel like destiny could have eliminated a ton of confusion in this discussion by saying that he's agnostic about some of the immaterial claims that religions make. He's not actually fully atheist. Literally the definition of agnostic is the belief that we don't know or can't know the answer to these questions. It feels like the label of atheist combined with the agnostic rhetoric is kind of jamming this conversation up.
actually, atheism and agnosticism aren't mutually exclusive. they're two separate questions. one is about knowledge or what you proport to "know" and the other is about what you "believe". destiny is an atheist. he's an agnostic atheist. i am too. but you can be a gnostic atheist or agnostic theist or gnostic theist. he's saying i don't believe gods are real, but i can't know that.
@@seanrandolph2059 that's a mistake on my part then. I honestly thought that agnostic and atheist were mutually exclusive
@@mikecurry6847 no worries bud, me too for the longest time. People use them like that a lot. Some else filled me in so i thought i'd pay it forward.
@@mikecurry6847 They are mutually exclusive when using the acadamuc usages of the terms. The atheist movement has pushed the not mutually exclusive thing largely to subsume evry non-theist under the banner of atheism. The people online tend to use it to shirk their burden of proof as well.
@@ReddVencher the people online are simply using atheism as a lack of belief in a god, which falls under the definition of atheism, it may be hard for someone like you to comprehend that they actually lack a belief in a god instead of using it as a way to shirk the burden of proof, which many religious people enjoy doing, but in reality they're using the term "atheist" correctly. on top of this it would make sense to push every non-theist under the banner of atheism because they're atheists, definitionally
Man sometimes I hate destiny’s mindset to always argue (I can’t remember the word)
Edit: I believe the word it’s contrarianism
Contrarian?
Destiny isn't a contrarian. Everything he argues he believes, this convo was specifically on how to best approach how to debate/engage with religious beliefs. Their mostly in agreement which is why the convo gets a bit muddy, finding the specific points they disagree.
.
iI have dysnomia (a disability that causes you to forget and mix up words) idk what the word I’m thinking of is. It is a word for someone that constantly argues I think (I’m confusing my self now)
@@powercore2000
yyour reply is giving me ptsd of redditors writing essays cause I accidentally mixed up hasan and vaush once lol
Wow, Destiny surprisingly is not good at debating religion. The other guy didn’t make any good points, but Destiny really wasn’t asking the right questions.
This guys on The Atheist Xperience a lot but what a odd thing to say “I’m concerned your not aggressively athiest” it’s like he’s tone policing atheism lol
Unfalsifiable claims are worthless.
So atheism is worthless.
@@Chrysostomus_17 Atheism isn't a claim. It's a rejection of a claim.
The claim is "some god exist". I reject the claim.
That doesn't necessarily means I'm saying there are no gods.
I don't believe X exist does NOT mean I'm saying X is false.
Basic logic 101. Try again
@@AdvancedSquadLeader Atheism isn't making a claim? Oh so atheism is unfalsifiable, and therefore worthless, according to your own logic. Lol what a self-own.
@@Chrysostomus_17 wait what?
Atheism in itself is just a label we use. Labels aren't worthless, are they?
It's an easy way to communicate you don't have a believe in a god. The reason for it being useful this is that a lot of people are theists.
Atheism isn't a thing like you are talking about it.
So your point doesn't get anywhere. Atheism isn't a world view, it's a label we use to explain a concept. The concept of not believing in a god.
@@AdvancedSquadLeader "The concept of not believing in a god."
Oh so atheists DON'T believe in God. So now atheism is conveniently a claim. Which is it? Is it making a claim or not? If you don't believe in God... you are explicitly making a claim about reality.
Armin for the win.
People like you are why people turn away from atheism and go towards religion
Watching two people debate Religion who are highly uneducated on Religion is cringe 🤡
Destiny before WW2 in America there were a huge amount of public clubs and organizations and societies that people belong to not so much anymore. The problem is the internet not that people are getting away from religion.
Even if you eradicate the internet(which makes club membership more accessible) atheists would still have very little common ground between each other.
the random "hasan and destiny aren't so different after all" comment in chat killed me
DGG reddit: "Oh yeah the DGG Discord is cancer you should hang out on DGG chat"
DGG chat most sane moment: 31:45
"confirmation" is a thing in secular humanism. Atleast where I'm from. Secularism inherits many traditions from religion, just as religion does from religion. The blame of rising age before getting married and reduced number of children on secularism also feels like taken from air.
i’m three minutes in and LMFAOOOO THIS NIGGA IS HARD ASF. he really said “nope, don’t feel like going to hell,” and BROKE BOTH LEGS LEAPING FROM A WINDOW in fucking crying omg
Nice debate that atheist guy was good
is this a repost?
Fantastic spelling on the intro card
Destiny got smoked in this one.
How?
@@RA-ie3ssone way illusion of casaulty and not putting up a good fight some people say I would agree with the last part but illusion of casualty yeah no just no
I’m with Armin on this one destiny, you’re not dealing hearing the arguments
armin seriously needs to calm the f down. destiny agrees with him. armin wants destiny to become the Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins. destiny just wants to chill and play league and not chill
honestly. it's not a big deal . bottom line ,if people keep it to themselves and find job then so what. sure it's good to convince people to believe in logic but many people are ok with saying( the earth is old and round ,and there is a God and love and forgiveness) despite what they hear at church or whatever...shit I'm much more progressive than destiny. I live in Washington and I believe in God.
@@komlat253 destiny has grown to be much more open-minded towards religion now. if you watch his old stuff, he used to be hard-core atheist and anti-religion
As a Christian feels good seeing dest argue with an atheist LOL
17:16 -5 respect points for destiny from me, Destiny doing the stammer techiniqur instead of answering the yes or no, a tactic usually seen in his opponents lol
Limmy made a skit about you called "yes or no", Google it
@@itstoogooditswaytoogood3211 no thanks
Nah, Destiny is right to hesitate because there are real examples of "useful fictions". For example, treat every gun as if it's loaded (as opposed to treating an unloaded gun as if its unloaded).
The hubris of this guy is in his claiming to know reality. Typical left-hemisphere extremism. Science is not an oracle that spits out fragments of reality. It's just a tool that is sometimes useful. And there are very important questions that science cannot presently answer (and may never answer). In these cases, "aligning with reality" isn't even on the table as a viable option.
The obvious answer is yes, but it can be yes for many different reasons because what people define as reality is different depending on the person. It’s like asking should we seek for more happiness in the world. What happiness or reality means for someone can change drastically, and what matters for someone.
I guess it’s even harder for Destiny to answer this one because does understanding reality always have good outcomes? I remember he talked about a extreme drug trip where he felt so disconnected from the world and so alone. I don’t remember why but if this state was one that was more aware of the fake subjective fabrication of reality should we all really seek for such a state? Is everyone even capable to live happy healthy lives in such away?
Hot take: Destiny and Armin don't actually disagree.
I NEED NEW DRAMA PLS
Why would anyone pray if they were an atheist? He acts like you could divorce observance from belief. He says to go to church if that’s what you like about religion, just don’t have the belief. But why would you go to shule, pray for a while, listen to this week’s parsha and then listen to the Rabbi’s speech about ethics and law, and then debate him about it over refreshments 5 hours later because you bickered with someone about the Torah portion over wine at lunch and are feeling confident in your perspective- why would you do that, a perfect shabbos as a Jewish spinster- if you didn’t believe in any of it? It would be insane to do any of that if you weren’t a believer. You cannot have the structure that comes from religion without having sincere faith. The rituals make no sense without the faith.
@Chris Smith right but as a religiously observant Jew I’m telling you that if you do all of what we do just for the “cultural reasons”, and you’re going to shule on the regular, and deep in the community, then you’re likely actively lying about your beliefs, because the arguments you would have to regularly engage in to attempt to justify why you stay in the community despite not being a believer would be exhausting. And the circles that would push back less against something like that also are further divorced from the communities being discussed - they wouldn’t have the benefits of ritual and all of that that the communities which are full of true believers would have, because the less you believe over time the less compelled to uphold these rituals you will feel. I wake up every morning and the first words out of my mouth are “I give thanks to You, living and eternal King, for you’ve restored my soul with mercy. Great is Your faithfulness.”, and then before saying or doing anything else (I mean before even touching myself - no rubbing my eyes even) I get up, I go to the sink in my bathroom, I do a ritual hand washing with a wash cup, I then wash my mouth and face, I use the restroom, repeat the ritual hand washing, and then thank G-d for clearing my bowels out. Then I spend the first half hour or so of my morning praying from a prayer book the same prayers I say over every morning - most of them praising G-d, a lot of psalms, that sort of thing. There’s swaying and bowing and all sorts of little rituals that have symbolic significance, ya know? Ancient shit that I’ve spent years studying the meaning and purpose of.
Then when I have my morning coffee I say a blessing over it. And I mean my whole day just sort of goes on like this. It’s in every nook and cranny of my life. I mean when someone is actually engaging with their faith in a serious manner, it consumes their entire life. And you don’t get much out of it if you half-ass it, because that’s not how rituals work - rituals are only rituals if consistent. So, I ask you: wouldn’t it be certifiably crazy to do all of that, all the time, if you aren’t a believer? You’re just saying things aloud constantly that you don’t believe in, you’re doing rituals that you don’t believe the meaning behind, you’re centering your entire life around something you think is woo? That would be insane and it would be a feat to convince me otherwise. If you’re not a believer, that’s fine, but don’t coopt our religion just because you feel a void in your unbelieving life. Get a hobby, find a faith, do something to actually enrich your life instead of superficially copying what people with enriched lives do, trying to fake it til you make it. It’s bizarre behavior and it would most certainly be a house of cards.
The art argument was solid and clean! You go Armin!
It was an about-ism, contrary to his later objection to Destiny.
What, it’s okay to give credit to religion for inspiring art, but not okay for Destiny to give credit when talking about its ability to form bonds?
It was everything BUT solid and clean. But sure. Go Armin. I hope he left, wiser than he came in.
This conversation has it all, sans the self-tipping fedoras
I'm not sure religion is actually necessary for a lot of the gathering people do in church.
I know it's different as I'm Finnish (very atheist country) and lutheran (unlike Catholism in the US or Europe, it seems much more liberal).
I'm 26 and I've only ever met a handful of actual christian believers that are even close to my age at any point.
Even a lot of the immigrants that I've come to know have lost their faith.
Keep in mind that when I was 15, I like most of the kids at that age went to a week long Confirmation Camp. Very little of it had to do with actually praying or something like that. All the kids and elders were agnostic/atheist and I'm pretty sure even some of the priests were.
(I live in a city though, I'm sure in some rural areas things will be different).
Then there's stuff like Easter and Christmas. We've always celebrated those (though to be fair, christmas was celebrated here long before christianity). We even still celebrate a lot of the "pagan" holidays too (Midsummer, Walpurgis Day etc.)
I did my conscription. Which honestly is great and I think every country should have something like it, even if it's demilitarized and just focused on fitness and discipline. You get to meet and befriend people of basically every walk of life (except hard core criminals and women lol) even more so than in Uni.
My unit had people all over the country, including a 19yo millionaire, a pro-hockey player, a guy who had already done his service in Cyprus, a Kurd and a guy who was originally a Somalian refugee. Though our branch of service was voluntary with tests, so the people were more motivated and as a result more diverse than some others.
My point is that you can keep traditions, even ones rooted in religion, without keeping the focus on religion or only acception religious people. Most people here still get baptized, married and buried at churches, despite not being believers. A lot of people don't even belong to a church until one or two days before they get their kid baptized or they get married and you don't need to belong to a church to get buried on their land here.
And in 20 years when you have lost traditions in Finland. What happens then? Do you concede?
We aren't different. Americans are just farther along the line then you. You will lose your traditions overtime. Liberalism doesn't maintain monoculture or communities. It establishes no justification why certain traditions are better then others and ought to be maintained. They even use the exact same logic and phrasing as you. "Well we don't need that to maintain society, we can have a peaceful and stable society without it."
Hm okay then go look at the city of ur or like Roman I go on and on what your doing is again illusion of casualty
10 mins in this guy isn't understanding the premise. His bias is showing so bad
Des-tiny’s point of religion being good because of the communal aspect, I think, is shaky ground. There is another side to the coin of the communal aspect of religion. That is rejecting those outside that religion and those that religion would mark as bad people, many times on things that they can’t control. people have and still Roblox eachother over religion. It’s a pretty big issue. I don’t think with religion you can have one without the other. So acknowledging one aspect you have to acknowledge the other.
Saying there's is a positive in the communal aspect doesn't mean it's infallible or perfect. It means that the good that's there outweighs the bad of it not being there. And I don't mean something replacing it, I mean, just pulling the rug and hoping people find something else the be a community with. He's repeatedly pushed back on religion where it's relevant and beneficial (like someone excusing bigotry with some god teachings but not when someone does charity cause of their religion views).
We could argue hobby communities are a replacement but they don't tend to have as much positive (less local community and less charity per member/per program) and have similar or worse issues (toxicity).
@@Kayzewolf Hobby communities? Yikes. As if that a community centered around mindless capitalist consumerism is going to be superior to one based on worshiping God and being part of the mystical body of Christ.
Imo the circle that's hard to square is that modern capitalism requires people who are maximally fungible--able to move anywhere, take any job, and live and work with anyone--whereas communal life requires strong, unbreakable ties between people, which makes them less adaptable. Ideally there'd be some way to form deep bonds of material and emotional support with the people around you at any given time, but idk what that would require.
but having an in group by definition creates a out group it just depends on what the in group does with that . many Christians hate out groups and many Christians love and accept out groups. have better solutions doesn't make one solutions void .some people like abstract meaning and some people don't. abstract beliefs are a part of human reality . you can divorce a natural thinking pattern from all people and it doesn't make them dumb because abstract thinking apart from religion is a type a highly valued intelligence in society
I think the the whole "loss of community without religion" is almost uniquely a US thing and not actually connected to religion really. This is a physically large country with modern cities that were built with motor vehicles in mind. Couple that with the rise of instantaneous internet communication and it compounds the issue further. I live in the 10th highest populated metro area in the US. Sprawling suburbs, it's not walkable at all, and there are no public places where people can congregate and hangout (a thing which seems typical in many non-US cities, especially older European cities).
"If they did so they did it thousands of years ago."
Yes Destiny. That's quite literally how religions propagated lol. There have been several inquisitions and religious tufts involving assimilation.
Lol bruh wtf us this dumbest reason to be like destiny your stupid lol
Also war isn’t caused by religion but hey used so called “critical thinking”😂
@@bullrun2772 you absolute clown 🤡 did I say or imply war was caused by religion? At BEST I said there have been wars caused by religion, those aren't congruent statements, but hey, you're right "critical thinking 🤡🤡🤡
isn´t atheism itself unfalsifiable? the claim being that God doesn´t exist. How does one prove that God does not exist?
Based and the other way around
Sorry I talked about league of legends. Please unban me in chat
Watching destiny debate people makes me content with life
Neither man was able to actually prove their point. Armin cannot prove that without religion we would have some of these things that Destiny is pointing to and Destiny can’t prove that religion has been a net positive on society. They just spoke in circles for a long time.
Armin bodying Destiny 🤣
5:34 I want to push back on that. I think the community structures that do exist in secular countries are increasingly empty of true meaning and connection, like sports, debate, chess or study clubs, to name a few. As soon as you start organizing your communities around some higher purpose that give people a higher meaning you will inevitably end up in the religious space where people will organize around some higher value. In Christianity the highest value was identified as Love, which is in some ways, but not entirely, synonomous with God. This value is best embodied in the person of Christ. I think true community and true connection always end up in the religious space, this is why the Social Justice movement is starting to take on dogmatic and religious forms as they start to take up more space in the cultural landscape.
"I think the community structures that do exist in secular countries are increasingly empty of true meaning and connection"
Well they've been given literally no time yet to mature and develop like the monopoly religious spaces have had for the last what, thousand years? I think people don't realize you need to give this stuff time and part of the consequences of religion monopolizing this space for the longest of time is all the attention and manpower taken away from developing real alternative spaces - up until now of course where secularism is finally given a chance to stop being cucked and grow.
What do you even propose for people who don't believe anymore? It's not like they can just ignore that part and go back to drinking the coolaid anymore, so these more traditional spaces are no longer viable for them while their numbers are constantly increasing worldwide to be able to ignore like we've historically tried doing.
Both Destiny and Armin lost the plot on the "purpose" argument. While one's purpose may be immaterial / unknowable, the issue is that blatantly false religious teachings are pushing a narrative that they give people a purpose through the religion. The base of this, the religion itself, is false. People may want purpose to come from an external source instead of being decided for themselves, but if you're going to get a purpose from an external source, it needs to come from some sort of solid foundation based in some sort of reality or truth. Not religious falsehood and fantasy.
The entire segment came from "tell me something from religion that is not false" and destiny brought up "purpose". But if the religion is false, as they both agree, then it holds no authority in telling people what their purpose is.
This is a much weaker point than you think. The scientific method is based on axioms that are essentially taken on faith. These unknowable / immaterial beliefs are the bedrock of rationality. The problem is not that the belief is taken on faith, it is what you can draw from those beliefs and the actions that can reasonably come from the belief. Faith is 100% necessary for people, the issue is what should we believe based on faith and what we should not. The reason religious beliefs are bad is because they can lead to people doing bad things based on them, not because people believe them.
If what you are saying is to be believed then there is nothing that can be taken as true based on the axioms of reason. None of it can be proven, and without these axioms nothing else can be proven. Logic works in the same way as your self fulfilling religions. Without faith in it nothing makes sense and only through it can anything make sense.
@@thegreattsbob Axioms and beliefs are different. Axioms are essentially like rules in a game; there isn't a right or wrong to them, we simply define the rules, and then all agree that we are going to play according to them. We could all agree tomorrow that the scientific method is actually to never test any ideas, and to believe everything we hear without evidence. That is still a valid axiom. However, it would probably fail us in the long run if our goal of "playing the game" is to find out true information. Axioms are true only in respect to a goal we define, just as scoring a touchdown is only significant in respect to the game of football.
A belief however is an assertion about how the world is. Beliefs are not simply things that we make up, but are claims about the nature of reality. Because of this, a belief should stem from a set of descriptive facts about the world that support this belief. When those facts aren't there, and we still accept the claim as true, then we are taking it on faith. That represents a leap in logic that is problematic, whereas our acceptance of axioms has nothing to do with facts of reality.
“If you’re going to get a purpose from an external source, it needs to come from some sort of solid foundation based in some sort of reality or truth, not religious falsehood and fantasy”
You haven’t demonstrated why that’s a bad thing. You just asserted that it is with no explanation as to why.
All that verbosity just to boil down to “religions not real, so it’s bad!”
@@chezbrgr217 but you could have an axiom that says that you’re not a brain in a vat and not hallucinating the whole of reality, or that you can trust your eyes when you’re measuring something in an experiment. Which is an assertion about how the world is.
It sounds like you’re just trying to distance science away from the “b” word.
Because how can I claim to be this solid tower of logic if I admit the foundation of said tower is still based on faith? I can’t admit that!
@@AkaiKnight Think about it like this: It's the equivalent of 2 kids in a trench coat pretending to be your boss and telling you that your task this week at work is going out to help feed some homeless people, strangle some puppies, do 100 push ups and then write and publish an article praising Putin.
Well, you might say to yourself that you don't want to strangle puppies because you think it's bad, but he's the boss so you do it. You don't know much about politics so you'll just go along with writing the Putin article. You do the push ups and feed some homeless people some meals.
In the end you did some good things and some shitty things and you didn't get paid (the 2 kids in a trench coat were not your actual work boss).
I'd say this isn't the best pathway to finding meaning or purpose in one's life. The religion's teachings can be (always is) a grab bag of good and bad ideas that are beyond reproach and based on a false pretense of authority the religion doesn't actually command.
It shuts down one's ability to correctly assess reality and to hold beliefs / perform actions that are based on logic, philosophy, etc. This doesn't mean that all non-religious philosophies are perfect, good, etc and that people will always make better choices and hold better beliefs.
But at the very least, in a secular society void of religion, you have to come with something to support your ideas and actions and you can't shut down dissent by claiming divine authority.
Yo!
Yo
Born Christian? Lol wtf? This guy is projecting the cultural angst of his upbringing on steve. And he sounds like an 8 year old pulling on your shirt while you're eating dinner.