Christian Dating vs. Courtship | The Duggars & I Kissed Dating Goodbye
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- Опубликовано: 2 июл 2024
- This video is about christian dating versus christian courtship from the perspective of an ex-fundie. I share four differences between the two approaches, my parents' reasons for not allowing me to date, and the courtship advocates who influenced them, including the Duggar family and "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" by Joshua Harris. I also talk about growing up in purity culture and christian patriarchy.
[Content Mentioned]
"Jinger & Jeremy Discuss Courting | Counting On" by TLC: • Jinger & Jeremy Discus...
"Talking About Courting | Counting On" by TLC: • Talking About Courting...
"I Survived I Kissed Dating Goodbye" by DOCS ology: • I Survived I Kissed Da...
"THE BOTKINS" by Fundie Fridays: • The Botkins | Vision F...
"The Virgin Daughters (Celibacy Documentary)" by Free iTunes Codes 2018: • The Virgin Daughters (...
[Timestamps]
00:00 - Courtship versus Christian dating
02:47 - Difference #1: Asking the dad permission
04:28 - Difference #2: Chaperones & emotional purity
06:50 - Difference #3: Physical boundaries
08:48 - Difference #4: Courtship breakups are scandals
10:07 - "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" by Joshua Harris
11:36 - "Boy Meets Girl: Say Hello to Courtship" by Joshua Harris
15:16 - Courtship advocates that influenced by parents
16:47 - Dads are the authority in christian patriarchy
[Background Music]
Title: Romance
www.hooksounds.com
Image Description: Elly, who is white with brown eyes, is sitting in front of a desk as she talks to the camera. Their brown hair is down, and they are wearing a purple t-shirt. On the desk are two green plants, a small bisexual flag, and a lit candle. There are video clips and screen shots throughout the video.
#PurityCulture #ReligiousTrauma #Exvangelical #ChristianDating #Courtship #ChristianPatriarchy #ChristianFundamentalism #Quiverfull #Cult #CultSurvivor #ExHomeschooler #Duggars #19KidsandCounting #CountingOn #FundieSnark #StayAtHomeDaughters #VirginDaughters
I had such a mixed relationship with the idea of courtship. On one hand it was heavily romanticised. There's this "beautiful precious pure" girl who needs protecting. She's almost venerated and there's a need to make sure she remains unsoiled. I wanted to be seen that way. I was a black kid in a white evangelical community and "purity" was so closely tied to whiteness. I was not worthy of protection by default.
However, I always had a feminist streak and the idea of having zero choice and my controlling dad (who I thought low key loathed me ) getting to choose the man I'd spend the rest of my life with turned my stomach.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. Is it ok if I pin your comment so more people can read it?
@@ExFundieDiaries no worries 👍🏾
I agree. Purity is very much tied to whiteness...I grew up Jewish. Actually, half Jewish. I came from a mixed marriage. I always lived with the awareness that Jews weren't really considered white, or racially pure. So when I looked in at purity culture, I felt like I'd never really be pure like the other Christian girls.
I'm so sorry that you experienced the racism part of this faux Christian nationalism. It's right there under the surface. So many of these people in Quiverful are obsessed with breeding "pure" White Christian children to ensure political and demographic dominance against immigrants and minorities. It's sick.
@@ExFundieDiaries - thank you for pinning this comment. I'm just now seeing it.
It's important to note that Josh Harris, author of "I Kissed Dating Goodbye", now firmly denounces everything he wrote, has left conservative evangelicalism, and while he has not commented as to his own sexuality (that I can find), he attended a pride march wearing the rainbow flag prior to COVID.
And divorced his wife of 20 something years
I actually stole my dad's book on courtship and hid it in my sock drawer so he would stop reading it to us at the dinner table.
That’s fantastic. 😂
good on you !!!!!!!
🤣🤣🤣
Oh my gosh, the dinner table readings! I'm getting flashbacks, haha! I would get so bored I would watch the condensation drip down the side of my cup, and panic when it was question time to check if we were listening.
Lev. was translated wrong billy graham. Refering to pedophilia. "Men shall not molest young boys."
Delete or reject the messages sent from the messenger of Malachi 3:1 and you reject Jesus Christ Herself and choose to die with the wicked.
Malachi 2 proves Malachi 3:8 is prophetic instruction for the thieving church leaders to bring back the money they were never supposed to take for ministering and God will end Covid. Every major church around the world knew this since August of 2020 but they LOVE MONEY so much they chose to kill everyone with Covid instead of returning it!
James 5:2 Rich people are NOT Christians and the wealth they selfishly kept to themselves will only be used as evidence to burn them.
The 2 witnesses are righteousness and judgement, not actual people. There is no ONE antichrist; it was made up by people that worship money.
Stay out of the fake churches or you will die with them and their lies. In order to be a church, the place must house people inside it. Otherwise it's another private money-making business serving satan and part of Babylon.
There is no such thing as rapture. Jesus comes back to rule. God's people are caught up spiritually...
Romans is not referring to Eunuchs where one partner is transgender.
🏳️🌈 Eunuchs that are born that way are transgender. It's even in the Bible. Yes, the bible was written by bigoted men and is way outdated and was changed and should be thrown out. But even Jesus spoke about transgender people. Eunuchs made that way by others were abused (it doesn't happen to everyone that is abused). Those that choose to live like Eunuchs FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN are bisexual people that choose partners of the same sex characteristics but opposite in regards to gender. Notice, God PREFERS for people to be in LGBT relationships.
Eunuchs are same sex couples. One partner is transgender. Transgender is when someone is born with a gender opposite the sex characteristics normally associated with that gender. God made us male or female, determined by gender, located in the brain.
Your gender is located in your brain and determined at birth. I have an identical twin sister that is female in gender. I am male in gender.
I am Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6 and that means any discrepancies in the bible are ultimately decided by me. Plus, it states in Deuteronomy that nobody was castrated back then. And that doesn't make sense anyhow. No one is born castrated and no one is born making the decision to be celibate. But, that is what God wanted the lying preachers to think so they wouldn't take it out of the bible. Intersex people still have one gender or another because gender is located in your brain.
And Acts 3:22-23 says it will come to pass that anyone that fails to listen to me will be utterly destroyed from among the people. So anyone that says different than this won't be here much longer. It's everyone's choice.
Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing or getting paid in any way to minister will also die with the wicked.
Peter 2:9 says we are ALL ministers . . . .
Jesus was transgender and will return as a woman.....
Remember, Malachi 3:8-12 is talking to the thieving church leaders. It's the answer to end Covid and every major church around the world has known this since August of 2020 but they LOVE MONEY so much, they INTENTIONALLY CHOSE to kill everyone instead of returning it. My preaching will lead to a universal monthly income for everyone. If church leaders dont repent, they won't be here to see it. Their choice...
the simultaneous infantilization and extreme responsibility and maturity forced onto girls/women in fundamentalist culture is so wild to me. old enough to be a caretaker for many of the tasks and people of a household, but not old enough to reject a man on her own? what an odd position.
And then people wonder why women are scared of men. Like what is so bad about men that we wouldn't want to be alone with them?
Because they think adult women are fundamentally less capable than adult men, in the way that an adult views a child. Or less favorably, the way a man sees a dog. Your intelligence and capability is measured by how well you are trained to obey
Agreed. It’s nuts!
I was taught to desexualise myself constantly yet be forced to be sexualised and objectified by creepy people who I was supposed to see as parental figures. Even the stuff that wasn't explicitly sexual but just about appearance and being taught to be aware of how men would perceive me while also being taught to be as ignorant as possible about sex beyond the fact that PIV causes pregnancy and if everyone remained "pure" society wouldn't have STIs. My mom once told me that nice girls pretend sex doesn't exist. 🙄 As a kid I was punished for watching a sex scene even though I had no idea what was going on because that's how these things go. Just like I got in trouble for repeating the word "f*ck" as a small kid without even understanding what I was saying or being punished for. There are some flaws in evangelical logic. Let's not teach kids about sex because they might get ideas and then be surprised when they get pregnant without knowing how. 🙄
@@Creepystalker102 not intelligence, just trustworthiness.
I love that Shakespeare was already mocking this practice over 400 years ago: "You have her father's love, Demetrius; Let me have Hermia's: do you marry him!"
Using the father as an obligatory filter for all romantic prospects is particularly cruel when you consider that marriage is often presented as the only acceptable means for a woman to escape her family of origin. So a father can effectively and maliciously keep a daughter within his home for as long as he likes simply by finding fault with every young man who approaches her.
All of my friends growing up were courting (very weird reverse to most folks, I was a secular home schooler in a VERY conservative area), and I didn’t quite understand it, I thought my friends, like me, had decided not to date because “dating isn’t that interesting” (I later realized I was gay and that SOME dating was in fact interesting but I digress), I had no idea until years later what this whole courtship thing meant, and I found out once that one of these boys I was friends with came and spoke to my father asking permission to court me, my dad essentially told him that if he thought he had to ask dad’s permission before even asking me that I probably wasn’t going to be interested, but he was welcome to talk to me himself. It cracks me up looking back. I like to imagine how confused this very conservative young man was to be informed that a man thought of his daughter as an autonomous being who could pick her own partner, the look on his face was probably priceless.
Interesting viewpoint.
I was raised in strict conservative fundamentalism. "I kissed dating goodbye," was like a 2nd Bible to me, and as a kid I tried to convince my cousins that they shouldn't ever date, but instead should pursue courtship, because why give away pieces of your heart if you're not ready for marriage? They replied with something along the lines of having to learn about relationships, communication, etc. A horrifying perspective for my fundie ears. Joke's on me, because they're happily in long-term relationships now and I don't even know how to approach the idea of dating ;) This series has been very helpful for this ex-fundie. Thank you for your vulnerability, it's helping people like me process and heal.
The creators of "kiss dating goodbye" are focused on no sex until marriage. That's all. They developed a list of rules to make this happen. Applied lots of shame based rules to a natural need
Well, finding people to be with on an intimate level can be challenging for all humans.....but applying purity culture to it definitely makes things 100× more difficult. I'm ace so I never outright went looking for hook ups I just tried to make friends that I could connect with on an emotional level. (That's how I wound up married.) Just start by making friends: is the best advice can I give everyone. Just throw out the archaic notion that opposite gender friends don't exist. Because you can be friends with anyone.
I'm sorry that happened to you. It's terrible what people do to kids on religion in the name of God. That's why I don't believe he's any kind of friend and his followers are harmful even if they mean well.
I was in the same situation in my 20s--believed that courtship was the only way, actively avoided relationships all throughout high school and college (not that I had many options in high school, anyway, given all my friends were at church and none of the girls there were my age. Well, one of them was, but she got married to a 28 year-old worship leader before my little crush had a chance to go anywhere >.
@@shinyary2 so glad to hear this, thanks for your encouragement to the folks who need that hope
“Purity Culture” was a very convenient candy coating for tons of abuse, in my own family and so many others. My sincere condolences to all survivors of coercive control, brainwashing, and all other abuses done in the name of “Purity Culture”.
Maybe in a culture where women going out in public gets them raped, shamed and devalued these practices are necessary. Keeps the girl "safe" and supposedly helps her find an approved husband. But, that's not the wests culture.
I grew up Christian but there was no purity culture in my Chruch and for that I'm grateful
Even when there's no abuse it's got an undertone of creepiness that sort of dances on the edge of "maybe incestuous?" All this fixation on virginity (cuz that's really what they mean by "purity") is hypersexualizing and having fathers be the keepers (owners) of their daughters' virginity . . . blech.
It's so weird and gross for dads to be so hyper focused on their daughters sex lives. No wonder there's so much abuse within these groups of people.
Ikr?!? Those fake "daddy engagement rings" and "father-daughter dances" creeped me out even when I was a part of that rotten branch of the faith. I'm still a Christian, but I've come to believe that God's love is bigger than what those people thought it was.
Yes that part us weird
I remember "side hugs"🤦
Also called "church hugs".
A lady at church discreetly explained to me that my luscious breasts would likely cause any boy to go mad with lust if confronted with a full -frontal hug.
And it would cause both the boy and myself to lose our salvation and go to hell.
Edit: it would,of course,be all my fault because I was The Girl 👧
Disgusting.
Wow. “Luscious breasts”. That lady was very specific about that, wasn’t she? LOLOLOLOL 😂
Yeah that's a load of crack. "But pastor said hug the person next to you!"
They just gotta make everything awkward and as uncomfortable as possible 🙄
I always hated it when they'd tell us to talk to other people....and everyone would just come over and shake my hand and pat me on the back..... the whole thing was too touchy-feely for me 😅 but telling someone "you're hugging wrong!" Just makes it 100× more awkward and bleh 🤮
Ugh. Shame 🤢
That is so wrong. Nothing can make you lose your salvation. Romans 8:38/39. Ephesians 2:8/9 John 3:16 Romans 3:21-24.
It’s so messed up that they think the heart is something that can be cut into pieces to give to multiple people and that you can’t give all of your love to your current partner.
Or like a glass of water that can run out. If that was true then I would like them to explain what Jesus meant when he said to love everyone because by their logic I’m sure you’d run out of love if you tried to love the entire world 😂
(I am not going to go into agape vs eros lol)
@@juliaboon9741 the glass of water analogy makes a bit of sense. But it's more like you pour out the entire glass on one person, then a breakup happens and you fill your glass again as you heal.
@@shroomshroom5945 that sounds nice
Can you also give all your love to multiple partners?
I cannot overstate how tragic, manipulative, gross (& additional strong adjectives indicating disgust) I find the idea of **deliberately** making a child fully believe their own thoughts & judgment & feelings are not only invalid, but are to be **strenuously avoided** at all cost.
This is where the ppl arguing that religion is "harmless" & is "for most ppl just a comfort in times of trouble" & how "they should be left alone to worship as they like, **they're not hurting anyone**" COMPLETELY LOSE that argument. It's NOT "harmless". Teaching a child their own intuition is "just the devil" is NOT F'IN HARMLESS. Teaching a child they must **always** defer to an adult IS NOT F'IN HARMLESS. Teaching a child to be 100% open to being "molded by God's word" is not f'in harmless, it's COERCIVE CONTROL & EMOTIONAL ABUSE. 😡😡😡
(Hoowee child your vids get me HET AF...😂😡😘)
I wasn't allowed to watch the show "Arthur," because the theme song said "believe in yourself" and I wasn't supposed to do that. I was only supposed to believe in God since, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." (Jeremiah 17:9)
As one may guess, this hasn't had a good effect on my decision-making skills or confidence as an adult, and I see the same thing in some of my peers who were raised the same way. You're absolutely right, this mindset is extremely damaging.
Lev. was translated wrong billy graham. Refering to pedophilia. "Men shall not molest young boys."
Delete or reject the messages sent from the messenger of Malachi 3:1 and you reject Jesus Christ Herself and choose to die with the wicked.
Malachi 2 proves Malachi 3:8 is prophetic instruction for the thieving church leaders to bring back the money they were never supposed to take for ministering and God will end Covid. Every major church around the world knew this since August of 2020 but they LOVE MONEY so much they chose to kill everyone with Covid instead of returning it!
James 5:2 Rich people are NOT Christians and the wealth they selfishly kept to themselves will only be used as evidence to burn them.
The 2 witnesses are righteousness and judgement, not actual people. There is no ONE antichrist; it was made up by people that worship money.
Stay out of the fake churches or you will die with them and their lies. In order to be a church, the place must house people inside it. Otherwise it's another private money-making business serving satan and part of Babylon.
There is no such thing as rapture. Jesus comes back to rule. God's people are caught up spiritually...
Romans is not referring to Eunuchs where one partner is transgender.
🏳️🌈 Eunuchs that are born that way are transgender. It's even in the Bible. Yes, the bible was written by bigoted men and is way outdated and was changed and should be thrown out. But even Jesus spoke about transgender people. Eunuchs made that way by others were abused (it doesn't happen to everyone that is abused). Those that choose to live like Eunuchs FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN are bisexual people that choose partners of the same sex characteristics but opposite in regards to gender. Notice, God PREFERS for people to be in LGBT relationships.
Eunuchs are same sex couples. One partner is transgender. Transgender is when someone is born with a gender opposite the sex characteristics normally associated with that gender. God made us male or female, determined by gender, located in the brain.
Your gender is located in your brain and determined at birth. I have an identical twin sister that is female in gender. I am male in gender.
I am Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6 and that means any discrepancies in the bible are ultimately decided by me. Plus, it states in Deuteronomy that nobody was castrated back then. And that doesn't make sense anyhow. No one is born castrated and no one is born making the decision to be celibate. But, that is what God wanted the lying preachers to think so they wouldn't take it out of the bible. Intersex people still have one gender or another because gender is located in your brain.
And Acts 3:22-23 says it will come to pass that anyone that fails to listen to me will be utterly destroyed from among the people. So anyone that says different than this won't be here much longer. It's everyone's choice.
Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing or getting paid in any way to minister will also die with the wicked.
Peter 2:9 says we are ALL ministers . . . .
Jesus was transgender and will return as a woman.....
Remember, Malachi 3:8-12 is talking to the thieving church leaders. It's the answer to end Covid and every major church around the world has known this since August of 2020 but they LOVE MONEY so much, they INTENTIONALLY CHOSE to kill everyone instead of returning it. My preaching will lead to a universal monthly income for everyone. If church leaders dont repent, they won't be here to see it. Their choice...
It fosters the destructive mental roadblock of enmeshment..... it's not just a purity culture thing but also a patriarchal thing. My dad never let my mom touch the computer or do anything online until she got a job and had to use the internet for work.... I'm still really really bad with tech to this day because of all the times I was told "don't you go play on the internet: you don't know what you're doing and you'll get a computer virus and I'M NOT GONNA PAY TO FIX THAT!"
Filling out job applications online is absolutely terrifying to me....but gotta do it anyways 🙂👍....I feel like a 90 year old online.
@@Snugglysnooknooks what's crazy is Arther was a seriously wholesome show....and the family even went to church in a couple of episodes.....
My parents just didn't want me to watch Post Cards from Buster because of that one episode with the lesbian couple.... and that other episode with the Muslim kid..... that show was just too progressive and open minded for their Pentecostal/fundie brains to handle.
@@Snugglysnooknooks Imagine not wanted a child to believe in themselves lol thats next level messed up
So silly, I remember my mom had one of those books when I was 16. She would only let me read a small part of it because the rest was "inappropriate for my age" I ended up meeting an abusive man at 18 and marrying him months into knowing him. I didn't get any knowledge or wisdom from my parents or youth group because that's for the adults only. Now I'm in my late twenties divorced and traumatized lol Thanks guys 👍
The purity culture/courtship movement has hurt everyone it's touched. I speak as a victim. What it enforced to me was I shouldn't touch a girl or be emotionally open to girls until I wanted to get married so the second I did any of that I assumed I needed to go the distance. THAT has had disastrous consequences.
Oh dear...as im looking through the comments I'm wondering if how I was raise would be considered "purity culture" given the emphasis on purity, waiting until marraige, boundaries, etc. But I think this suggests strongly "no." In fact because of the culture of wanting to teach young people purity with the opposite sex, we were encouraged to go on platonic dates and my parents wanted us all to have good male and female friends.
@@stadot1427 sounds like purity culture, but not as extreme
@@Rose-jz6sx Well, I don't know. I think one of the hallmarks of "purity culture" as described as so damaging in the orignal comment is this idea that once lost, purity can never be regained. Or perhaps it's not meant that way, but that's what is communicated. That's kind of the antithesis of biblical Christianity.
I'd say promoting real biblical purity with grace, understanding, and second chances does not damage people.
@@stadot1427 the concept of purity as something we should aspire to is harmful in and of itself imo
@@Rose-jz6sx OK. Why is it harmful?
Hey Ella! I just wanted to say as a lesbian who just left evangelical Christianity, your videos mean so much to me! Thank you for being your lovely, beautiful, and authentic self! 🥰💖💜💙
Lev. was translated wrong billy graham. Refering to pedophilia. "Men shall not molest young boys."
Delete or reject the messages sent from the messenger of Malachi 3:1 and you reject Jesus Christ Herself and choose to die with the wicked.
Malachi 2 proves Malachi 3:8 is prophetic instruction for the thieving church leaders to bring back the money they were never supposed to take for ministering and God will end Covid. Every major church around the world knew this since August of 2020 but they LOVE MONEY so much they chose to kill everyone with Covid instead of returning it!
James 5:2 Rich people are NOT Christians and the wealth they selfishly kept to themselves will only be used as evidence to burn them.
The 2 witnesses are righteousness and judgement, not actual people. There is no ONE antichrist; it was made up by people that worship money.
Stay out of the fake churches or you will die with them and their lies. In order to be a church, the place must house people inside it. Otherwise it's another private money-making business serving satan and part of Babylon.
There is no such thing as rapture. Jesus comes back to rule. God's people are caught up spiritually...
Romans is not referring to Eunuchs where one partner is transgender.
🏳️🌈 Eunuchs that are born that way are transgender. It's even in the Bible. Yes, the bible was written by bigoted men and is way outdated and was changed and should be thrown out. But even Jesus spoke about transgender people. Eunuchs made that way by others were abused (it doesn't happen to everyone that is abused). Those that choose to live like Eunuchs FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN are bisexual people that choose partners of the same sex characteristics but opposite in regards to gender. Notice, God PREFERS for people to be in LGBT relationships.
Eunuchs are same sex couples. One partner is transgender. Transgender is when someone is born with a gender opposite the sex characteristics normally associated with that gender. God made us male or female, determined by gender, located in the brain.
Your gender is located in your brain and determined at birth. I have an identical twin sister that is female in gender. I am male in gender.
I am Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6 and that means any discrepancies in the bible are ultimately decided by me. Plus, it states in Deuteronomy that nobody was castrated back then. And that doesn't make sense anyhow. No one is born castrated and no one is born making the decision to be celibate. But, that is what God wanted the lying preachers to think so they wouldn't take it out of the bible. Intersex people still have one gender or another because gender is located in your brain.
And Acts 3:22-23 says it will come to pass that anyone that fails to listen to me will be utterly destroyed from among the people. So anyone that says different than this won't be here much longer. It's everyone's choice.
Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing or getting paid in any way to minister will also die with the wicked.
Peter 2:9 says we are ALL ministers . . . .
Jesus was transgender and will return as a woman.....
Remember, Malachi 3:8-12 is talking to the thieving church leaders. It's the answer to end Covid and every major church around the world has known this since August of 2020 but they LOVE MONEY so much, they INTENTIONALLY CHOSE to kill everyone instead of returning it. My preaching will lead to a universal monthly income for everyone. If church leaders dont repent, they won't be here to see it. Their choice...
Are you still a believer @Erin?
@@sambailie4773 No, I’m not. I’m an agnostic atheist like Ella.
The clip of the couple at the alter when all of the groom's exes showed up and he said all that's *left* of his heart belongs to his bride, but those women still each have a piece of him -- I almost teared up; I was raised with that mentality, and when as a twenty-five-year-old who had just left the faith and was dating somebody I actually loved, someone who had lived in the "real world" and dated like a normal person before me, I was so petrified of this scenario that I was emotionally histrionic when one of his exes popped up and I became so intolerably hysterical that our relationship ended in an awful bang. I know I'm responsible for my own actions, but to this day I'm devastated that I was set up to be triggered like that. I feel like every other month I discover something else that fundamentalist indoctrination did to screw me up lurking in my subconscious that I have to untangle and heal from, and I wonder when it'll ever be over.
Oh My God Yes! I've been watching a therapist on RUclips go over the JohnnyxAmber trial and hypothesizing about the potential disorders and when Ambers desperation is so clear it really clicked for me. The religious indoctrination really primes you for some DEEPLY unhealthy behaviors.
My husband and I went through a really rough patch many years ago (exacerbated by many factors on both sides and before I had really even started my deconstruction) where he was being emotionally unfaithful to me. And that was totally my reaction too.
I pledged him everything and him giving pieces away was the ultimate betrayal. We have both been through individual therapy since and our relationship is better than it has EVER been, but it was by the skin of our teeth and could have just as easily tipped in the opposite direction.
Just know that growing and learning (or unlearning) together can be just as heartbreaking as a total loss. And that no matter your past mistakes you deserve total devotion in the present and if you continue to work on yourself someone worthy of you will come along. 💚
@@InThisEssayIWill... Thank you so much for sharing. Some days (fewer and fewer now) it feels so dark not knowing if I'm truly crazy and incapable of a healthy relationship, or if the deconstructing and work on my mental health is going to get me where I want to be in time to share any sizeable chunk of my life with someone the way I always dreamed of. Thank you for the encouragement, and I'm so glad you and your husband were able to do the work and get to a better place! That's awesome.
@@InThisEssayIWill... And same here with the Depp/Heard trial; I definitely had to pause and take breathers from watching, because although I've never ever been an abusive partner, I could relate far too closely to that desperation and fear of abandonment and the inappropriate ways it can manifest.
That clip was such BS, because love from the heart is not limited. The fact that a boy or girl loved someone else previously _does not_ mean that they can't give their whole heart to the one they ultimately end up with. I once read that the more love you give, the more you have to give. I was very young then, but as a middle-aged woman, I believe this even more.
As you travel the bumpy road to recovery, I hope you can learn to give as much love as you can, as fearlessly as possible. The mistakes you make will only strengthen you.
@@lisagulick4144 Thank you 💛 You're so right; I know from my own experience that even though I had crushes growing up, my heart was still whole and it was still all mine to give to whoever I wanted; even with the evidence of my own experience, the brainwashing from religion was strong enough to superimpose itself in my mind. I'm definitely doing better but it still makes me angry that people are STILL out there telling these things to impressionable young people who just want to be the best Christians they can be, and are so susceptible to believe what their elders teach them.
A "friend" gave me the book "I kissed dating goodbye" when I was 18 and then got angry with me when I pointed out how awful it was. 20 years later I admit I really revealed in the schadenfreude when I leared he's divorced now.
🙂
Grew up IFB in the 90s, just before the quiver full and IBLP movements kicked into high gear. I remember when I kissed dating goodbye came out, and wanting to have a husband that loved me enough to not want any physical relationship before getting married. Reality was, I felt so pressured to marry this man I met in church, so he had to be a good guy, and we had to get married fast, because hormones! Ignored a ton of red flags, because hey he was from church, had to be a good guy! Ran from that marriage 6 months later. 2 years later I met my now husband, and we have been together for 17 years. Purity culture sucks!
Has it really not occured to these folks (and I'm including the non-Christians who push courting over dating) that people can (and do) date with the intent to marry? You can date however you want, it doesn't have to be "casual". Sometimes I wonder if they come up with these things just to make themselves feel "set apart" - and, of course, to have more control over women.
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. ❤️
Exactly, this made up difference between dating and courtship is so strange. Kinda seems like the majority of people date to try to find their life partner, someone to love. But these fundie sects have decided mainstream dating can only ever be about 'selfishness' and having fun (read: evil promiscuity)
I don’t think anyone should date with the intent to marry. It’s too much pressure and it will screw up the relationship’s natural development. Realizing you want to marry a certain person should be a happy surprise, not something you’re always thinking about or hoping for. Just hope to have fun and fulfilling relationships, and then if someone comes along who you want to marry, that’s a nice bonus. But relationships themselves need to be free of preconceived expectations, otherwise they have no room to grow into whatever they’re meant to become naturally. Maybe someone you’re dating is spouse material, maybe they’re friend material, maybe they’re relationship material but not someone you want to stay with forever.
Oh they do that sort of straw man argument all the time, always assuming the absolute worst is the norm in secular culture. I think most people when they date know they someday want to get married, and dating is a part of finding that person. Fundies make it seem like we just date to get laid.
@@emmanarotzky6565 Nah, if marriage is what you want, you should definitely date with marriage in mind, otherwise you might end up wasting a lot of time. If you want lots of kids for example, you should avoid dating someone who's "childfree", and instead date only people who also want kids.
@@emmanarotzky6565 i think that when dating, you should talk to your partner about future and what you want in it (marriage, kids, travelling abroad, etc.); i would hate it if i've been dating someone for +3 years to discover their ideas don't allign with mine (for example, not wanting marriage when i do, or becoming a stay at home parent when i want to keep working). You don't have to date with the intent of marriage but you should make that clear to your significant other so they know that's your goal.
I believe I was so attracted to the book‘s message because I‘d seen my female friends be picked up and dropped like hot potatoes after they had sex, and then have them absolutely slandered in school for it, and I didn’t want to go through that. I thought following the book was the best way to avoid that poor treatment.
Reflecting on it now, I think what resonated was idea of treating people well and taking them seriously, not just a „score“ to be had or an Instagram boost. I plan to teach my children that it’s not kind to ghost someone, and it’s good to take things slow and see each other casually or as friends for a few months to allow the „rose-colored glasses“ to come off a little bit before committing to someone. And it’s important to know what you’re ready for, know your boundaries, and know the right ways to communicate them to your partner.
HOWEVER, and this is a big one - I ended up leaving religion and realizing that none of those things are specific to being a Christian, or gender roles, and should not be rooted in shame and control. I ended up marrying my first serious boyfriend, and I only engaged in intimacy after we had been in a committed relationship as that was my personal wish (didn’t want to have one-night stands). But, we spoke about everything. None of our parents had anything to do with it, and we weren’t pressured into anything, and didn’t fear repercussions. We had the chance to get to know each other intimately before deciding to get married, and spent tons of time together just the two of us to see what we are like as people when no one else is watching, and that’s really important.
Who he was during our three years of dating was exactly who he is now, and we have a really happy marriage because we took the time to make sure.
Long story short: The decision to marry someone should never be made because of someone else. You’re not marrying the church, you’re not marrying your parents, or your in-laws, or your chaperones or whoever else is „involved“ in courting. You’re marrying that person, and I think it is absolutely necessary to know them closely and intimately before doing so if you want to be confident in your choice. Otherwise your husband might just turn out to be Josh Duggar, and god knows everyone should avoid that.
I hear a lot about "ghosting"-- how common is this outside of an online-dating scenario? Or when people complain about it, do they just mean not getting back to someone after a first date via a dating app? It seems like it would be somewhat difficult to completely disappear from someone's radar if you know people in common, etc.
I do want to chime in that there are more behavioral options than "one-night stands" (which I think also has a connotation of barely knowing the person, or being intoxicated, or whatever else) or only being intimate in longterm relationships. I don't fall under either of those. I don't only sleep with my partners, but I usually (nowadays-- I've done different things at different times) only sleep with people I have ongoing friendships with. That's completely fine if someone only wants to sleep with partners, but it sometimes seems like the way everything else is portrayed is almost a bit derogatory and definitely somewhat distorted. Unrelatedly, having had maaaaany sexual partners in my life (probably top 1% for females), I've never actually had someone treat me suddenly poorly because of that. Not sure what that phenomenon is about, maybe it's just a high school thing? Or it could be that people who are sexually active at a young age are more likely to have trauma / behavioral issues and get into bad situations / have poor partner filtration.
Lev. was translated wrong billy graham. Refering to pedophilia. "Men shall not molest young boys."
Delete or reject the messages sent from the messenger of Malachi 3:1 and you reject Jesus Christ Herself and choose to die with the wicked.
Malachi 2 proves Malachi 3:8 is prophetic instruction for the thieving church leaders to bring back the money they were never supposed to take for ministering and God will end Covid. Every major church around the world knew this since August of 2020 but they LOVE MONEY so much they chose to kill everyone with Covid instead of returning it!
James 5:2 Rich people are NOT Christians and the wealth they selfishly kept to themselves will only be used as evidence to burn them.
The 2 witnesses are righteousness and judgement, not actual people. There is no ONE antichrist; it was made up by people that worship money.
Stay out of the fake churches or you will die with them and their lies. In order to be a church, the place must house people inside it. Otherwise it's another private money-making business serving satan and part of Babylon.
There is no such thing as rapture. Jesus comes back to rule. God's people are caught up spiritually...
Romans is not referring to Eunuchs where one partner is transgender.
🏳️🌈 Eunuchs that are born that way are transgender. It's even in the Bible. Yes, the bible was written by bigoted men and is way outdated and was changed and should be thrown out. But even Jesus spoke about transgender people. Eunuchs made that way by others were abused (it doesn't happen to everyone that is abused). Those that choose to live like Eunuchs FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN are bisexual people that choose partners of the same sex characteristics but opposite in regards to gender. Notice, God PREFERS for people to be in LGBT relationships.
Eunuchs are same sex couples. One partner is transgender. Transgender is when someone is born with a gender opposite the sex characteristics normally associated with that gender. God made us male or female, determined by gender, located in the brain.
Your gender is located in your brain and determined at birth. I have an identical twin sister that is female in gender. I am male in gender.
I am Elijah of Malachi 4:5-6 and that means any discrepancies in the bible are ultimately decided by me. Plus, it states in Deuteronomy that nobody was castrated back then. And that doesn't make sense anyhow. No one is born castrated and no one is born making the decision to be celibate. But, that is what God wanted the lying preachers to think so they wouldn't take it out of the bible. Intersex people still have one gender or another because gender is located in your brain.
And Acts 3:22-23 says it will come to pass that anyone that fails to listen to me will be utterly destroyed from among the people. So anyone that says different than this won't be here much longer. It's everyone's choice.
Anyone teaching the LIE of monetary tithing or getting paid in any way to minister will also die with the wicked.
Peter 2:9 says we are ALL ministers . . . .
Jesus was transgender and will return as a woman.....
Remember, Malachi 3:8-12 is talking to the thieving church leaders. It's the answer to end Covid and every major church around the world has known this since August of 2020 but they LOVE MONEY so much, they INTENTIONALLY CHOSE to kill everyone instead of returning it. My preaching will lead to a universal monthly income for everyone. If church leaders dont repent, they won't be here to see it. Their choice...
Also just want to add that shaming women for having sex is a problem, or treating them well just to get sex then going around bragging about it, etc. All of these things are not *because* of dating. They're because patriarchy teaches us women should be "pure" and men just want to sleep around, normalizing the practice of men sleeping with as many women as possible and then shaming them for it. IMO, this result was made possible by purity culture and patriarchy, not despite it. If we taught our kids gender equality, mutual respect for partners and the importance of enthusiastic consent we wouldn't see this kind of thing as so common.
I am now divorced, thanks to "courtship" rules. It's like being set-up for failure.
yes, it's like they expect people to both be devoted but detached from their bonds, then spontaneously develop communication skills with partners, be comfortable with various forms of intimacy, etc, the second they say "i do!" they could've learned more about relationships and navigating them if they were allowed to date more freely.
Can you explain more?
❤
In the 80s and 90s I was a young adult in a church cult that required courtship. We had been estranged from our families (because that is what cults do) so the men had to go to the church elders to get permission to court a woman. God led through the men, so we women were oblivious, apparently. When a man asked us out (and this would often come out of nowhere), saying yes to a first date was nearly equivalent to saying yes to marriage. And there was a lot of pressure to say yes because the marriage was already cleared through the elders and was clearly god’s will
This was so screwed up and the whole thing only got worse with time. I can’t imagine being raised in this culture and the strength it takes to get out. Thank you for sharing your story
Joshua Harris recently left his faith, and stopped the publication of his books. He has apologized for the harm that his work has caused.
I’m almost 32 now, so me and Ella are about the same age. I kept a diary to my future husband, and everything she read from her diary was familiar. Big hugs to everyone who went through this ridiculous upbringing, and the fact that you’ve left speaks to your bravery and goodness.
I’m 30 years old, single currently dismantling purity culture as well as my Christian faith, and felt this, too! I have whole lists and poems and a couple of letters to my future husband, thinking that I’d be married/with kids now. I wish I could tell myself that my being a sexual woman is beautiful and that dating isn’t as scary as conservative evangelicals think it is. I wish I could allow myself to tell the guys I had crushes on how I felt about them. I wish I could have allowed myself to flirt, hell even talk to a guy, without making a big fuss and going through the mental gymnastics of “is he the one?” There’s so much making up for lost time I’m having to do now as an adult, which is both exciting and scary. But I’ve come a long way, and I’m excited with how far I have to go from dismantling purity culture.
Every time I hear a fundy says you have to be selfless, I think of my mom who coped with her abusive marriage by being selfless for 30+ years. Funny that the men are not really told to be selfless, rather it is women who have to be "dead to the self" and accept male authority as God intended.
Did they miss this scripture?
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her - Ephesians 5:25
I’m so sorry for your mom and for you. That’s a rough way to grow up. I hope you’re both okay now.
Yeah I never hear them tell guys to not be selfish or have sex when they don’t want to, or stay in shape for their wives or anything like that. It’s always directed at women
Oh boy, is that true1
How convenient that what "God intends" is slanted in favor of the men proclaiming it to be what God intended!
The idea behind not getting emotionally attached while courting so that the couple can "give their whole hearts to each other" is so counterproductive to me! Like, how are they even sure the relationship is serious if they only know each other on a superficial level? How are they even supposed to be sure that they're in love if they're not allowed to vocalize it until a proposal is made? How do they truly know each other at all if they've never been alone together? At this point, they should just call it an arranged marriage where the girl has some level of choice to reject the guy before even starting the relationship. At least that's an honest representation of what it is!
"God will use this to teach my heart ", also known as "I will learn to submit to all the teachings being forced on me."
this process sounds so immature and childish 😞My Caribbean family subtly expected me to follow some kind of courting process, but they were too ashamed to ever explain it and say their ideas out loud. So they just complained and shamed when I went out on dates :-\
Dang! that had to be confusing for you
That line from your journal, "I need to change the way I think about boys, then my emotions and feelings will follow" really resonated with my experience - such a succinct and dead-on description of the mandated psychological self-torture of fundamentalism. Thank you for making this.
Honestly, courtship just makes me think of the Duggars, particularly Josh and Anna, and we all see how that turned out😂
Has anyone else watched the “Courtship” documentary from the early 2000s? In the documentary, a lady named Kelly lived with a spiritual father and had to have his permission to get to know another 30 something man. It wound up causing her to miss out on possible relationships and she never got married. It blew my mind how even a casual coffee date was not allowed in strict purity culture.
I have! And she's still single btw
"I think this is the most sexually chaotic generations ever"
Ma'am, I'd like to introduce you to the Romans.
You are just exposing this cult-like behavior. The ending was so disturbing. I’m so glad I was irreverent enough to break out of this group-think mentality. Leaving Christianity is what led me to a healthier relationship with myself and my body. Very well-done video!
Purity Balls make my skin crawl 🥴
OK, so theoretically the girl can decline the courtship, but if she has been raised to be compliant and please others, and her father has already decided that he thinks the courtship is a good idea, it doesn't seem like there's really much room for her to say no. So basically, courtship treats girls as men's property, gives them very little way to express their own desires, and doesn't allow the couple to learn to communicate directly with each other. This all sounds very dangerous. Plus, the idea that if a courtship doesn't lead to marriage-- when they barely even knew each other before courting-- means they (or more likely she) did something wrong, well, that's just ludicrous.
And what if a girl likes a boy and wants to pursue a relationship? She's not allowed to initiate anything herself, but can she drop hints to him and hope he picks up on it? Or is even that too forward?
Obviously, this whole thing is even more terrible for LGBTQ+ kids, who must be under huge pressure to form relationships that are completely wrong for themselves. And as an aromantic person, I have to wonder what such a culture would be like for me. Being raised in mainstream culture, it has always been relatively easy for me to turn down dates. But if I had been raised with the notion of courtship, would I have been strong enough to say no if I wasn't interested? Or would I have been pressured into a relationship that I didn't want? The whole idea just sounds more and more awful the more I think about it.
Thank you, Elly, for covering this topic. It is so much worse than I had realized. But that seems to be the case for every aspect of Christian fundamentalism that I learn about.
Also, raise your hand if you would love to see a collab between Elly and Fundie Fridays!
Bingo. This is how they operate. They make it seem as though you have a choice, but really... you don't, because they only give you one "acceptable" option. It's like telling someone "well you *could* steal food, or you could work for pennies an hour. You still have a choice!" It absolves themselves of "forcing" women to do anything while simultaneously supporting a system that ensures women have very few options to do other than what the leaders want them to do.
I would also love a collab with Fundie Fridays! 🥰
I'm ace myself, but raised conservative Christian. There were plenty of rules, mostly about how _the ladies_ should act. If I told a guy I didn't want to date him, it was shameful for me because "he's perfect for you - he's single!" (Our church had very few singles of either gender, so pairing them up seemed like a godly act to the Old Guard.) Complicating matters further, I didn't _know_ I was ace at the time...I never knew there was such a thing! So I felt there must be something wrong with me, because I didn't have any mushy feelings for anybody, and the more the church folks tried to push that One Single Guy at me, the worse I felt. Finally came a day when I couldn't pretend anymore, and I exploded at the guy. No surprise, he had bought into the party line of thinking he was "supposed" to end up with me, and he laid one last guilt trip on me: "I don't see how you can say you love Jesus if you don't love me."
At this point, I complained to the pastor's wife (women were counseled by women, men by men), who told me a totally different story - I was allowed to have boundaries, and if this guy was trying to shove through them, _he_ was the one in the wrong. I was relieved, but...where was her counsel as she watched the weird matchmaking antics going on?
The matchmaking stopped, but the church itself started going off the rails, following weird practices about "holy laughter" and other such aberrations, and I finally left a couple of years later. Finding who I really was and being able to work within that framework has, oddly enough, freed me up to give more love to everybody!
@@lisagulick4144 "But you two have so much in common-- you're both single!" I'm glad at least the pastor's wife said you're allowed to have boundaries. But for the guy to equate loving Jesus with loving him is a whole new level of crazy.
Remember, in Bill Gothard's IBLP, the girls is owned by her father, until that ownership is transferred to her husband when she marries.
Such a fear-based perspective. Why are Evangelicals so afraid all the time?
I hear often in this purity talk fear of "heartbreak." "I don't want my kids to get their hearts broken." Like it was the worst thing in the world. Huh. If your heart isn't breaking occasionally, you're not living.
It also alway amused me that purity culture idolized a book on "dating" written by a 21 year old boy who was a virgin at the time. They treated it like it was holy writ. Too funny. How can a barely legal church boy teach anyone about dating? It was preposterous. And it ended like you think it would have.
Joshua Harris recently left his faith. I think he actually bought back the rights to his books so he could remove them from publication.
Yeah I found it weird too. A 21 years old has no idea about dating and nobody shouldn't take him seriously on dating.
The fear is how they keep people in line and in the church.
@@r.j.whitaker He's come out as gay now too. It's good that he had the self-awareness enough to pull the book from publication when he realized how harmful it was.
Absolutely its about control. Fear and isolation are very effective tools for control.
Love your new hair cut, Elly!
Thanks for making this video. Ive wondered what the difference between dating and courtship was. The Christian/ parent description of the difference is so eyeroll. 🤢
The mentorship crap means the girl ends up marrying someone just like her dad. Yuck.
Hey Elly! I'm only about halfway through this video, but this is very interesting to hear. As a woman of Indian descent, I was also encouraged to not date growing up - but courtship isn't a thing in Indian culture either. Instead, parents arrange marriages for their children once they become adults. It's funny, because as restrictive as courtship is, when I watched an episode of 19 kids and counting that showed a couple of the kids' courtships, I was surprised that they were allowed to enter into romantic relationships and "date" (read: court). Just thought I'd share!
Purity culture seems like such a nightmare. I was lucky enough to miss most of it despite being raised by a semi-fundy Christian mom, but the horror stories I've heard from other women my age... yikes. I feel for you all.
What I find really weird about the whole "guard your heart" thing is that I often see it framed as "dating is heart breaking and therefor bad" rather than seeing failed relationships as a natural part of learning. It's like falling off a bike. It's just part of learning how to ride a bike. As a woman now married almost 10 years, both my husband and I agree that our previous relationships are what prepared us for the right relationship.
The dad doing the "rejection" for the woman/girl just seems like she will never learn how to tell a man no. That seems really dangerous to me. A woman/girl should always be empowered and taught to be able to say no. Not to mention how it sends the message that her father is in charge of her life choices, rather than her being in charge.
Yes!
Good morning! I have never pushed dating or courtship on my kids. The pressure to marry the person you are seeing is not the way to teach children how to explore healthy relationships for themselves. Amazingly, my oldest is 19 and really good at finding good people to date. I refused to do to them what my family did to me.
I did the same with that Philippians verse! As someone with General Anxiety Disorder I feel like a clown waiting for gods peace to show up. I’m glad I deconstructed otherwise I would still be waiting
I was raised in a Presbyterian Church. I went to Youth Group, Bible summer camps, and huge Presbyterian conferences. I truly do not ever remember discussing Purity Culture. I remember how we were inspired to fight for oppressed people and finding forgiveness. My church was far from perfect, but at least weird sexual shame wasn’t apart of MY experience. As an adult, I am still “figuring out” what I believe - organized religion can be problematic in many ways - but I am so thankful that I was raised in a non-purity culture environment. In conclusion, FUCK PURITY CULTURE. Eww 🥴
Presbyterian and Episcopalian churches are usually on the spectrum of normal and more open minded than conservative evangelical churches.
That clip with the man that "brings" his exes to his wedding reminds me of those countless posts by people that do not undestand psychology and/or anatomy and claim that (usually sometimes they include men too) women's personalities are influenced by coming in contact with a man's bodily fluids so a woman who had sex with more than one man is like some kind of chimera or something...
Really f up to think this way...
My baby sister (25) just got engaged, the first thing I asked her fiance was if he had asked my dad. Before he could answer my sister interrupted him and said she had told him long that if he asked our dad she would say "no" to his proposal. 😂
As someone who spent 10 years in an abusive courtship turned marriage myself I cannot be more proud of her!
Oh, these people are so wrong! The heart doesn't grow smaller for every person you love, it grows bigger! And even if a relationship ends, the good and the love that was generated in it - and the lessons learned in it - will stay with you and it will be part of the new relationship that hopefully will last. New love builds upon the old loves.
I also think being able to stay together with a person as a couple, and growing together through the years with all the shared memories of a long life together has a huge value, but that is not always possible, and if it doesn't work out that way, it doesn't mean you have less to give the next person in your life.
Of course, if a relationship is really toxic, you might also bring with you some scars that you'll have to work on in the next relationship. But getting out of a toxic relationship and starting a healthy one, is a good thing, anyway.
I'm 35 and I've only in the last few years started healing from how much purity culture fucked me up. Great video, it's crazy how similar my youth was to yours. It's nice to know I'm not alone.
Hey there Ella, because of purity culture my husband after kissing me on our 2nd date said he'd have to marry me someday. Luckily he's a great guy but we were 14 and I told him it's just a kiss it doesn't matter that much and explained my mom and dad being unmarried when they had me and why it's not a healthy practice to do that. He said we have at least 4 years to get to know each other before then right? I am happy to be with him because he accepts my pansexuality and loves me for me. However I know how rare this case is.....
I remember after a really bad situation in junior year of highschool (In Arkansas), I had lost a pet and my girlfriend at the time, and was terrified that I was losing long-time friends, which had me in a tough place. So I decided that I had wanted to go to therapy.
I had talked to my school counselor, and instead of referring me to the correct resources, she decided to blame me for not going through a courting process, and being in a lesbian relationship. It really sucked, because I was looking for help, and got told that it was my fault.
i'm so sorry that happened to you, i hope things are less stressful now.
I hope that counselor was fired! 😡
@@aster7159 They are luckily! Thank you!
@@DimaRakesah Not sure if she was fired, but we did get a much nicer one the year I graduated!
Omg ewww. That clip compilation at the end sent me over the edge. If you added the music box track on top, you are very talented at setting an ambiance my friend.
Elly, thank you for being so vocal about your discovering new/buried parts of yourself as a deconstructed person. It’s so affirming and so important.
I deconstructed and later realized I was asexual-and recently, figuring out that I’m a flavor of panromantic-but I was homeschooled, sheltered, and raised in the southern Baptist church. It was easy for my asexuality to hide behind “holy chastity”, and I was not given the room to realize that my lack of interest was something more than just me being a good Christian. I even seriously talked to my dad once about taking a vow of celibacy, I was so closeted and so nervous about not having an excuse not to want physical intimacy that I was ready to put an easily digestible label on it for my fellow Christians.
I still wanted relationships, and I eventually dated. But fear kept me from asking my parents and my pastor questions that are vital to healthy, beautiful relationships. All I had was purity culture.
Purity culture did not teach me the importance of setting boundaries, or how to communicate feelings, or how to say no when I felt scared or uncomfortable. It taught me that anything that was said or done in that relationship would ultimately be my fault, because I have hips and breasts and those things cause men to “stumble”. And those wrong things would mark me for life.
I do not let any faith dictate the amount that I can love a person anymore. I find new ways to understand and love the people around me every day, and I am thankful for your thoughts on fundamentalist culture that touch me so deeply.
I never really got this courtship thing. Sometimes you have to go on dates to get to know people and they are not always a good fit and thats okay. But This whole courtship and practically being engaged before even being in a relationship is a bit much. What most of my dates have been is things like going for coffee with someone interested and eventually deciding if we want to continue more long term. The one boyfriend i had from church wasn’t a courtship but was hella more toxic than just going on the casual dates i had. I don’t feel ready to date again just yet but when i do it will be starting casual getting to know each other and see if we can grow it I probably am not going to see the person as my spouse the second i meant them. Thought that of my ex boyfriend ( the church one) who turned out to be emotionally and spiritually abusive so I’d much rather not make a huge assumption like if i am attracted to someone i am going to marry them. That was not a healthy way!
i was raised in a pretty cathloic hispanic family, i cant relate much to this but those clips at the end really just spooked me. cause at that father and daughter purity ball or dance or whatever its called, how they talked about their daughters virginity its so creepy and just gross
"It's the roller coaster ride of life. It picks you up and drops you down!" My journal entries were also filled with references to CCM music (haha). These days, it's more commonly Broadway musicals. I'm so glad that all the crazy hormones and confusion of puberty don't last forever!
I have a lot of respect for the way Joshua Harris has been willing and able to publically state "I was wrong". Very few people are willing to put themselves out there like that.
That girl in the red dresse's expression on her face in 17:07 is priceless. She is like "WTF did I get myself into?"
I think it's good that Joshua Harris, now divorced and no longer Christian, has pulled his book "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" from shelves and admitted that he regrets having written it knowing the damage it caused for many people. Of course, that cannot undo the damage, but at least he has taken steps to rectify what he has done.
My parents were among the homeschool parents that read and admired Harris' books, although by the time I was dating I was already in my 20s and they did not try to control how or whom I dated. To their credit, their fundamentalism had also relaxed significantly. I have "conventionally" dated two men, and have been in a fulfilling, committed relationship for four years so far (I'm 27). The idea that conventional dating or sleeping together before marriage is setting yourself up for divorce, as the fundies claim, is ridiculous. If anything, not having any idea of what physical intimacy or being alone together is like before tying the knot is setting yourself up for either divorce or misery... "courtship" often means rushing into marriage before you really know the person.
I used to love the Romanized idea of courtship, not so much the parental involvement bit (not everyone did that) but more about the intentional nature of the relationship. I wanted a guy who was like "hey, I like you and don't want to play with your heart but I think we could have a future." I didn't want to just ask a guy out because I was interested. I wanted to be chased. Thing is, "Say hello to courtship" I remember tried to say that courtships ending were not to be seen as failures. Did everyone ignore that bit in the book? I'm so sorry you went through so much through that movement.
the clip of the guy getting married with all his past women behind him made me laugh out loud
My parents weren't quite all-in on courtship, but my mom definitely tried to push courtship ideals onto me. None of us were allowed to date until we were 16. And when we did, there were strict rules on what we were allowed to do. For example, regardless of whether we were dating or not (even if we weren't 16 yet), we weren't allowed to have guests "of the opposite sex" in any room with the door closed. This meant sometimes that when we had friends over, there was nowhere in the house where we could have privacy. We were told things that purity culture preaches, like that sex fused two souls together, so anyone who had multiple partners was sharding their soul like Voldemort. And we were encouraged to marry the first person we ever dated, which led to all sorts of pressure. And heartbreak.
Things got worse once I started presenting as more outwardly gender-non-conforming, though I was still trying to hide my real gender. My mom became suspicious of any friends I ever talked about or brought over. She seemed to think that I was f🦆ing everyone I spoke positively about, or at the very least, she thought I wanted to. I was always so hurt and confused by that mindset. Sometimes a good friend just wants to make you soup and watch Disney movies with you, y'know? I was sick. I had a cold. I'm not sure why she felt the need to pull me aside on my way to the bathroom and tell me "not to do anything inappropriate in front of her children."
And, you know, despite the restrictions and surveillance from both sets of parents, my high school sweetheart and I definitely did sexual things that neither of us considered "sex" because we were taught abstinence-only education, and we learned to bend the rules and sneak around them. We both thought that if it wasn't p.i.v. then it didn't count. Classic case-in-point for purity culture not working
Thank you Ellie for this video. It was beautifully made.
Ugh the end was so haunting! Another excellent video!
Thanks for sharing this. Some of this is completely new to me.
Thank you for making this video! Some of these experiences ring true to my own childhood/teenhood, and some more so for my friends. I agree, fuck purity culture!
Back when I hung out with fundies, one girl told me, "instead of dating, you should try courtship."
I asked, "isn't that when my dad controls who I date?"
She said yes and said it was the best way to have a godly marriage. I laughed and said, "fuck that." That's a reason a lot of them ghosted me. 🤣
Well it was a huge gain for you that they ghosted you!
I'm always impressed with how articulate you are with your thoughts. Thanks for sharing and putting yourself out there :)
Thank you for such a thoughtful video. Beautifully edited montage at the end too.
Hey Elly! Your videography skills have really improved!
My family was really into courtship as we were involved in a fundamentalist church where courting was de rigueur. I read I Kissed Dating Goodbye and Boy Meets Girl and many of my friends didn’t kiss till the alter. I firmly believe I married the wrong man because I had sex with him before marriage and felt that I had to marry him.
Every time I watch your videos I wish I could have a coffee with you. I feel like we would have so much to talk about regarding our pasts and our deconstruction. I know we are kindred spirits. Thank you so much for being brave enough to share your story.
100% again! very grateful for your work in exposing these monstrous systems and ideologies that we allow to persist to this day!
Just found your channel and it’s helping me heal. I grew up Catholic in the Bible Belt and just watched your video on the abortion paper you wrote… almost a spitting image of my beliefs as a teen. Thank you for the work you’ve put in.
I subscribed a while ago but havent had a chance to watch any videos yet, I loved this video, and will go back and watch from the beginning. Wishing you nothing but healing and positivity 💫
Thank you for all of this content
Elly, your journals are an absolute *treasure* 💜 Thank you for sharing your memories & stories with us, it is so appreciated!
There’s something different about listening to someone reading a journal entry, as opposed to them retelling a memory.
While the memory retelling is still just as valid, hearing those journal entries really feels like the past brought back to life. 💗
I hope that makes sense, not sure how else to describe it!
So so good Elly💜 thank you for this video
The outro really drove it home…. Thank you for sharing your experiences. It’s healing to hear that I wasn’t alone in my feelings growing up in fundamentalist/evangelical hell
Thank you so much for your vulnerability. Your channel is kind of crazy because little baby you was such a good documenter of your feelings and experiences at the time. I really look forward to your uploads, you handle sensitive topics with such grace but at the same time you’re super funny and snarky. It’s also super cool you took the time in the beginning to mention that it’s only a certain kind of Christianity you’re talking about. You’re a gem. Totally unrelated, but the new hair looks so amazing on you!
gosh.... so much sympathy and compassion for all of ya'll who went through this, and thank you so much Elly for being honest and vulnerable and sharing your story with us. Your journal entries always hit me so hard cuz it reminds me of how I used to write in middle school.
That ending video clip was so disturbing. 😳 Thank you for all of your transparency Elly. And I love seeing you and Jen shout out each other!
Thank you for not only sharing a very personal insight into Christian dating vs courtship, but also a personal glimpse into your own life.
*NEW SUBSCRIBER!*
Omg. Seeing the clip of I Kissed Dating Goodbye play out that part word for word just gave me chills.
Elly, I appreciate so much your eloquent digestions of growing up Fundie. It is helping me make sense of my own childhood under the heavy religious mores. Your work is a gift to those of us recovering.
Hi Elly, thank you so much for sharing these diary entries with us. I'm deconstructing right now, and your videos really help me process everything I learned in my Christian fundamental/evangelical household. Your words and diary entries articulate everything I thought and experienced while growing up.
I can tell how deeply devoted you were to God and Christian fundamentalist practices. You're so right when you say that this is heavy stuff especially for a 14 year old to police their own thoughts and feelings. If anyone has ever told you that "you were never a real Christian in the first place", I can assure you that they are very wrong. I can see you were so deep in the beliefs and practices. Thank you so much for sharing your journey with us 💕
Also, I love videos by Jenny from Fundie Fridays and Mickey from Therapist Reacts ❤️
People do say I was never a real Christian. Thank you so much for your validating words! 💕
For me, it was a given that there was to be abstinence. However, the whole courtship idea seemed to sort of come in from other more conservative churches. Parents in my church didn't really know what to do with it. For me, being a shy kid anyway, it eventually led to me having to figure out dating when I was 30 (having not really gotten into it before that). Joshua Harris' book was a terrible influence that messed up things for several cohorts of conservative and even moderate Christian kids.
I didn't realize this was specifically only a Christian thing. This was how dating was like for my mom in 1985. My parents are Hmong immigrants.
i’m so honored to have the same name as you💗
Damn I had so many goosebumps from that last compilation from the various virginity balls. Chilling.
From a fellow former evangelical homeschooler who was brought up with this shit: thank you. I’m so happy for you that you made it out and I’m so glad that you’re adding your voice to the dialogue.
hey elly! this isn't particularly relevant to this specific video (though it was good as all your videos are), I just wanted to thank you for making your content and putting it out there. while I wasn't raised in an environment as strict as yours, I have my own religious trauma that ive been trying to work through as an adult. your stories are extremely validating to me, and they've helped settle some things in me that I haven't really been able to cope with. you've helped me put some things into words that I haven't been able to before, and I'm hoping that this new understanding of myself and the church I was raised in will lead to some much-needed healing conversations with my mom. thank you again for sharing your stories, and I look forward to seeing what you put out in the future 💜
I wish you well in those conversations. I’m a mom of young adults and I would rather they brought things to the surface so I can apologize and make restitution than keep them buried to spare my feelings. Just the thought of them living with hurt I might have inflicted has me close to tears. We’ve actually had a couple of those conversations already.
Your production value is increasing! This is one of your best videos so far imo. You did a really good job with the montage of clips at the end :)
I dont know if it was your choice or from the documentary you show clips of but it's a perfect music choice at the end. I'm completely removed from this in my own life and it has me crying
I’ve been in the process of leaving a cult (it’s called JMS if you’re curious) the past 6 months. Your RUclips channel has brought a lot of comfort to me and made me feel less alone. Thank you for being open about your experiences, it’s not easy but you’re helping lots of people! Thinking of you and wishing the best for you’re healing! 💖
PS: you’ve also meant a lot to me as someone who also realized they’re bisexual after deconstructing. Thank you 🌈
What does JMS stand for? All I can find is info on a guy called Jung Myung-seok who founded a culty religious movement
be safe and I hope you get out.
@@emilybarclay8831 that’s the one!
@@shayloren7329 oh! From want i could see it is absolutely batshit insane so I hope you’re able to fully get yourself out asap!
Hey Ellie!
I am so happy that you have space to find your own way and not your parent’s way. The videos you have been showing have brought up so, so many memories between ballet, Awana, etc. I want to apologize that I couldn’t help more when we were younger. I have wondered how you and Annie have been…. I vividly remember a season when things were super rocky with your family and asking one of the leaders if everything was ok and being told that I was imagining things. I was heartbroken to find out that my gut wasn’t as far off as I thought. I do have a few thoughts about the institution of courtship. When I got to the age of high school it became more difficult since the adults had made decisions about me and who I was and my behavior and it was incredibly difficult to sway anyone to another opinion. At that point, I was just trying my darndest to stay out of any “accidental courtships” sprung by parents (thankfully not mine). My parents expected me to not date/court or drive until the age of 18. Since we were also involved in IBLP and a church that was somehow more conservative than the IFB it was difficult to break out. That being said, I dated rather than courted…. It was one of the few things I put my foot down about. My first dating experience was with an extremely well-known boy in our homeschool circle and everyone treated it as though we were engaged, which was incredibly confusing. When the relationship ended there was an intense amount of drama. I met my now husband not long after. Although he was homeschooled for the early years, he was part public school and all Marine. Talk about some culture shock! He has been very patient. As far as the most confusing and traumatizing part of the courting culture I think that it would be this…. I personally developed at a later age, however, once it was obvious that I had a natural hourglass shape, I was often inappropriately talked to by the dads (all under the guise of “looking for their sons”). The number of times I was told that I had “good childbearing hips” would make most people blush. I compensated by wearing the baggiest clothing that I could find until I was dating my now husband. Why in the world did these grown men EVER think it was ok or appropriate to comment on a child’s body?!? I would love to catch up if you were willing but would completely understand if it was asking too much.
Christine (Spitzer)
Thank you for this. I did wonder what the difference was when you mentioned it in the AWANA video.
I definitely wondered what the difference was while watching your videos so this video came at the right time :D
As someone who lived through this and is queer myself, I am so glad you are able to put this experience into words for others to understand.
Dating a couple guys before I met the man I eventually married helped me know what I did or did not want. I also learned quickly the difference between someone who does not respect my boundaries, and someone who does. I met my now husband at 16 but it was my choice. While we dated rather than courting, he did get to know my family and they love him.
I have read before its not about what is the right way to date, but finding someone who agrees with you. It was in context of who pays and gender roles but I think this applies too. Some might see dating as just fun, while some might be commitment/marriage seeking. Not everyone needs to agree, but you gotta be with someone you agree with. The sad thing is that this courtship model only allows for one mindset, and is built on what the father wants and completely bypasses the daughter. Maintaining inexperience and control just teaches her a loving relationship is built on control.
I was so sold on these ideals as a fundie homeschooler who desperately wanted to feel worthy of love and romance! I was plus-sized and had a streak of rebellion + outspokenness that most men found "undesirable" in me. I think back now and honestly, I'm grateful that no one wanted me; I safely made it to adulthood without getting tied down to a man that would control my thoughts and life.
I'm now a bisexual disaster who's still trying to deconstruct and reconstruct her faith, but I'd rather be here than in the same place I see some of my childhood friends in. I sometimes wonder who I would've been if my parents hadn't moved us out of the south and away from what I realize was a Christian Fundamentalist Cult--I'm glad I'll never know.
Anyone else who started life that way too: don't be so hard on yourself. Navigating the memories and picking out the lingering conditioning is a life-long process, and no one can dictate what it will look like but you.
Great video! I’ve been branching out and casually watching vids on religion since I was raised atheist and had zero experience with religion.
I had such a hard time saying "I love you."
It's been hard to claw my way out. Which is why it's kinda funny that I can now genuinely tell a friend that I love them.
My fiancé and I began our relationship by courting. I actually wasn't very familiar with the concept despite being raised in a Christian home. My fiancé was homeschooled and was taught courtship was the Biblical way of starting a relationship. At first, I went along with the courtship idea. I believe there were good intentions like helping us stay pure and have a clear goal of marriage somewhere down the line. That said it wasn't long before I felt so much pressure from his parents and the church he went to. They would say "when you get married" ,"when you have kids", like it was a forsure thing despite the relationship being new. (To be fair, his mom did have stage 4 cancer and I believe a lot of the talk about marriage and kids was because she didn't have a lot of time left and wanted to see her son get married) Another issue I had was we could never be alone together. We had to have a chaperone. It felt odd needing someone to watch us when we're both adults. Self-control is a thing. If you can't keep your hands off someone unless you're being watched 24/7, you're probably a sex addict. I also felt it was dangerous because a partner can act very differently in public versus when you're one on one. It's difficult to get to know them on a deeper lever or talk about personal things when someone else is with you. A few months into the relationship I brought up my frustrations and concerns with my partner, and thankfully he agreed we would have a dating relationship from then on and not a courtship. I'm glad his parents trusted us and supported our decision. We knew we eventually wanted to get married and would have to figure out what boundaries worked for us, but I was so glad the pressure was off. I got to take my time getting to know him and deciding if we would be compatible longterm. There was no rush to jump into a lifelong commitment. We've been together for 7 years now and just got engaged in June. While I do wish we didn't begin our relationship by courting, I'm glad we've grown as people and have become more open minded over the years. Instead of blindly doing things because peers say it is godly, we have learned to challenge those ideas, seek God ourselves, and make wise decisions. While I may still be a Christian, I relate a lot to this video and I am so grateful you talked about your own experiences. Courtship is a potentially dangerous practice and I do not recommend it to anyone.
I'm rewatching this video and have been thinking a lot lately about how many Christians are so judgmental about expressing emotions. I have an aunt who is deep in the sauce and often sends memes that are basically like "Had a hard time. Didn't complain. I'm a great person." Or like "People should do their best to get along at all times" or like "Don't frown the world is beautiful" (paraphrasing, of course). Basically like... people ought to conceal negative emotions at all times regardless of how much they're suffering.
Anyway. When at 2:17 you said their argument for why dating is bad is "dating is for fun." (Counterbalanced with "courtship is for marriage.") Just like. I get the main point that they're saying there is "dating is frivolous and not important, unlike marriage." But it's just like. It's a few steps away from some 90s era bro comedian being like "lol marriage is suffering." The idea that something being "just for fun" means it's bad struck me as the other side of the coin for that worldview.
"Open suffering" = bad. "Having fun" = bad, frivolous, maybe adjacent to sinning. "Concealed suffering" = good.
This actually sounds a lot like courtship in Muslim countries
Conservative fundamental Christianity is SHOCKINGLY similar to conservative Islam given how much the two groups despise eachother
@@emilybarclay8831 I was shocked to learn about Ramadan after fasting for Lent every year😂😳
@@RevertedRashidah I mean although they have their definite differences, Islam and Christianity are both Abrahamic religions and do share a source so they’re more alike than a lot of people realise
Conservative Abrahamic religions are suuuuper similar in what they practice. You can find a ton of similarities between them. They have the same origin. Interesting when you really look into it!