A Problem with Dragon Ball Super Super Hero
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- Опубликовано: 11 сен 2024
- Dragon Ball Super Super Hero was a fun movie but far from perfect, there are flaws. My least favorite thing about Dragon Ball Super Super Hero and why it bothered me. Has Jiren been nerfed from Dragon Ball Super?
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#DragonBallSuper #DragonBallZ #dragonballsupersuperhero
I didn't like that Goku said meditation wasn't training considering everything he learned from Karin, Kami, Popo, and Kaio
This
Not to mention that Dabura meditated to prepare himself.
Toriyama at that age he doesn't care what's canon anymore.
@@ozero00rockon he honestly never has lmao he just has fun with it
@@ozero00rockon Toriyama probably forgot like he ALWAYS does lol
Also the fact that Goku is acting like he's never meditated before like he's acting like a child
Toriyama forgot
He just wanted warm up sparring, Then broly goes full power and vegeta training himself. His hype was ended.
@@secoTheSonicFan true that mate they hyped jiren up to be this crazy force of nature but now we have veggie tales saying nahh he just knows how to use his power better lol
@@machineferret3359 they never asked Toriyama for input. Just his design and outline.
So wat else is new
The fact that Jiren casually pushed back the spirit bomb with just his eyes, that alone 100% debunks what vegeta said. Like, how can you say that Jiren wasnt really much stronger then you when he literally pushed back with his eyes a SSB Kaioken x20 spirit bomb, which people like Frieza who is SSB level, Gohan etc also gave their energy, + he wasn't even trying. Even if he was Merged Zamasu level (extreme lowball), that still vastly above Goku and Vegeta combined up until that point (EP 109-110)
don’t you have to have a pure of heart to push back the spirit bomb ? maybe jiren didn’t have no evil in his heart which can explain why he pushed the SB so easily
Because of his mental fortitude and through mediation he was able to master ki usage and manipulation. Him using his eyes to deflect the spirit bomb because he's so physically strong doesn't make sense at all. But him having such an in depth understanding of his own power allowing him to do that does make sense
@@JamieJustEditing646 bruuh, buu was able push back spirit bomb but buu is literally a evil in person
@@JamieJustEditing646 this def makes the most sense , Jiren def doesnt care about anything except getting stronger so he can protect the people , so much so that he doesnt even want to become a god of destruction.
@@JamieJustEditing646 no jiren was filled with pride and ego. He was not pure at all.
I always took it that the movie had the manga's power levels in mind. In the manga, the gap between Jiren and Goku/Vegeta was nowhere near as large as it was in the anime
Is the same like DBS Broly. That why Goku never use Blue Kaioken and Vegeta never use Blue Evo. They only use perfected Blue till the end. Also Vegeta casually use SSG in that movie when in anime he didn't even use it. Vegeta only use SSG in manga only so far
@@shawziiz5031 They never used perfected blue at all in the film (at that point that's headcanon), and the reason why kaioken and blue evolution weren't in the film was because toriyama never at all made kaioken blue and blue evolution (those were added by the people at toie which might explain why pan can't fly in the film but in the anime she is shown to fly multiple times), hell I'm pretty sure perfected blue in the manga is also something toyotaro added that was never part of toriyama's notes. And for the reason why Vegeta goes super Saiyan God in the film is solely on the fact it's for fan service and nothing more.
Exactly because Toriyama follows the manga closer than the anime, which I even doubt he watched any episode of..
@@dbzfan1056 they actually did
A Quick Google search would confirm that
The dbs movies are based on the manga
Even gogeta used perfected blue
The anime is less canon and garbage
Did you even read the manga?
Jiren in the manga destryoed everyone
He even was on the lvl of mui not like in the anime where he got beat by him
"Jiren is stronger than G.O.D"
"Jiren wasn't that much better than us"
"Why can't I catch up to Beerus?"
What are the writers smoking?
There’s writers for dragon ball?? Can’t fucking tell..
Jiren was never stated to be stronger than all the gods. And it's actually a good thing he's weaker than beerus. I REALLY hope most gods could beat jiren as well. As it would be stupid for a random Grey alien mortal to surpass so many gods of destruction.
The people who downplay beerus and say MUI goku let alone jiren should have surpassed him will always hate because they use their own headcanon to put jiren above Beerus.
Jiren literally knocks the themes out of opponents lol
If i remember correctly it was just a rumor.
@@ggamesgarner8027 yea facts. It was only stated jiren is stronger than belmod and beerus
Jiren = A disciplined, observant, and focused individual that can see his way to victory.
Vegeta and Goku = Battle crazy individuals that care about nothing but the fight.
yeah but Goku is becoming the former little by little
Thank you. We all saw Goku get freaked out at how powerful Jiren was before the tournament. Every other opponent has excited Goku. To scare him means Jiren was way ahead of them power wise
Of course he didn't get serious at all with them until he went into UIO and then they had to jump him lol 😆
Moro scared him, too
I honestly think Broly and Super hero are written based on the manga not the anime in mind
*Moro*
Goku was excited by Jiren in the manga
I'm going to be honest. Toriyama is destroying his own creation or he is being manipulated to write such bullshit.
There was a time when something written by Toriyma was gold. I see his name on anything DB related and I think
"great... some more shit that doesn't make sense,"
Let Toriyama live out his final days without worrying about dragonball.
With a stupid ass move like this I don't think I'd retire either.
i agree this movie was so unlike any other movie he has , like wtf is this shit
I've been saying this since Battle of Gods came out March 2013. They only brougt in God Ki, the stupid 5 saiyan ritual, and angels and all that other ish in Super because they never expected to make a new series at that time...they only needed a quick cash grab and that was it
But the popularity was so much they decided to make a series but were boxed in with the wonky writing of Battle of Gods ish....
I was trying to tell them to forget about Battle of Gods and start fresh post-Buu Saga, but NO, they forced themselves into making that Battle of Gods canon. So we ended up getting "Super" which is super trash.
@@jasonone8726 this movie is the worst ever out of all the movies
Stop as a good writer(not great, good enough) or continue as a shitposter.
@@xic777 lol the movie is literally the best DB content we've had since Z, cope
I think he's saying he wasn't leaps and bounds ahead of them but his concentrated power and the way his aura didn't leak multiplied his actual power and made him look and feel like he was just completely out classing them in strength but in reality his power wasn't too much greater than there's but his technique and experience with that much power and keeping it contained and condensed with in himself made him a lot stronger than them
PIN THIS!
Agree the fact they caught up with jiren during the last stages of the TOP proves your point
In the Manga (which Toriyama is working some what closely on with Toyatoro) Jiren wasn't that far ahead of them. He was FAR more focused and understood his ability. All Jiren did was meditate most of the TOP away. When he joined the fight he was a force. Vegeta saw this. We all know mental image training is a thing.
Edit: Spelling
That make a lot of sense.
and ssj blue is all about that.
I really want to know just how strong Beast Gohan really is. I’m also waiting for the English dub release, I can’t wait.
Same here
So do I. The problem with Beast Gohan is that Toriyama said Gohan was stronger than Vegeta and Goku. If thats the case does that mean he is on par with the GoDs like what does stronger mean.
Well Beast Gohan is obviously much stronger than SSJB Goku in terms of raw power you can say he is on the same level as MUI Goku since it is Gohan with all his potential
@@maskmaker6374 toriyama said Goku and piccolo are "up to par" with Goku and Vegeta. He never said Gohan or piccolo were stronger than Goku or Vegeta
@@ChodyRay This is what Toriyama said "Gohan is actually stronger than anyone…"
Jiren literally bodied Vegeta when he got an insane power-up (ssbe) Vegeta has no right to say Jiren wasn’t that strong 🤣
I think while they are downplaying jiren, the fact that he is still referenced shows just how much of a menace he was. I think Toei just realized having Goku stronger than the GoDs might be too much.
They basically ran themselves into a wall with that one lol
@🎀ՏᕼIᗰᗩᗰᑌᖇᗩ🎀 if you watched this video you would know that's not the same conclusion he got at the end of the top and neither did I, Jiren seemed to simply be stronger. They were practically frightened of his energy from the moment he appeared on the tournament grounds, I didn't think jiren was hyper focus flexing his ki on them before he arrived on stage.
They caught up to Jiren in 48 minutes so Vegeta wasn't lying bruh 🤣 it's funny AF to think about though
@@davontihoward9038 the writers changed the narrative. Sure MUI overpowered Jiren for a bit but it took the entire team to beat him. Plus the anime is very inconsistent with power levels. One day Goku is stronger than Hit in Blue the other time he's getting over powered by Krillin.
@@xiondFirst I mean if someone has to spell out the fact that Goku wasn't really trying when he was testing out the team for the TOP then to each their own bro. All I'm saying is Goku bridged the gap quite closely within just 48 minutes so if they had an hour who knows what would've happened 🤣😭
Personally, I think that the statement by Vegeta is just his arrogance talking. Vegeta has made arrogant statements like that throughout the anime as far as I can remember.
Alternatively, it could also be that Vegeta honestly believes that since saiyans get stronger as they fight that they could easily surpass him in time. This statement is kind of true as we saw that Goku was able to reach a level higher than Jiren's when he used the complete UI form (I am not calling it master UI because he has not mastered using UI or the complete UI form).
Yeah but the problem is someone like Whis then affirms Vegeta's thoughts. Whis isn't a stupid guy when it comes to fighting and techniques. They pretty much made Jiren feel like a one trick pony with that line, rather than an actually powerful enemy/foe.
The idea that Jiren is just far stronger than everyone else makes more sense considering when he was meditating during ToP he was completely untouchable to 99% of the people in the ToP. Not to mention all the battles he fought with Goku and Vegeta, there were simply times where he didn't conserve energy or focus it, there were times he simply was just beating them down completely without respite. Him being just this ball of extreme power is just more logical, rather than a guy focusing his energy in swift blows.
Plus, isn't this exactly what Goku and Vegeta did against Zamasu/Goku Black in the Manga and it only helped a small bit where they switched forms just below their blow landed, it didn't make them Jiren levels of strength, it just conserved Ki and energy. Seems to me that either Toriyama forgot or someone on Toei didn't do their homework or they simply wanted to make Jiren seem less powerful. Either way, none of the outcomes make sense. Geekdom is right.
Pan was adorable in the movie, unlike the annoyance she is in GT. She has that wild, free spirited & innocent character trait of a good natured Saiyan.
Well Pan in this movie is still a kid, like her EOZ version. The GT version she grew up already, so she has rebel attitude a bit. I think Xeno Pan has the best attitude. She definitely around her GT counterpart age, but she ain't annoying like that
@@shawziiz5031 Well one of these versions of Pan has Akira Toriyama written all over it, the others close to none. GT Pan has more of Chichi's character traits than anything else (nagging and bossy). I don't think that Pan being a kid in Super Hero movie has something to do with her attitude.
Pan in Super Hero sort of reminds me of Anya from SpyXFamily, more friendly and adventurous.
Vegeta: Jiren wasn't much stronger than us, he just knew how to use his ki better.
Me: Dude, he casually shrugged off your Final Flash before he began even trying...
The manga Jiren wasn't as overwhelmingly powerful as the anime version was, and that's the version of DBS Toriyama works with most closely. Also, Vegeta didn't specify exactly how much stronger Jiren was, what constitutes "not that much" is somewhat vague.
It's not necessarily a problem or contradictory.
I agree. The anime made Jiren stronger then a GoD
@@Phantom_Knarf-76 Jiren Is Stronger Than GoD in The Manga
@@XJSPlays02 yea I didn't really read the Manga until the Moro arc
@@Phantom_Knarf-76 Well, that´s another thing.
@@Phantom_Knarf-76 Jiren was stronger than his universe's God of Destruction (and therefore stronger than any others weaker than Belmod, including, debatably, Beerus) in the manga too. It is just that he wasn't portrayed as a completely overwhelming force who could flick his opponents away like fleas without breaking a sweat. The fights were more evenly paced.
We need a Dragon Ball story with actual stakes that results in irreversible damage. Something that challenges all the fighters emotionally and mentally. The T.O.P. Arc tried to do this but, it was swept away.
I wish that they didn't try to downplay Jiren. That was a shock to me when Vegeta said that. Especially, considering how many times Jiren folded Vegeta like fresh blankets out of the dryer. He has NO ROOM to say Jiren was not stronger than him😂😭 We saw the man break free from Hit's Time Prison move. There's no way, they're saying this about Jiren the Grey.
We already have that. It's called the Shadow Dragons arc. Can't get more dire than "Yo, the Dragon Balls are literally against us"
Goku black arc had some stakes as well as the TOP. We won’t get higher stakes then this until we move past the end of Z.
@@diegomedina9637 True. But we need it in modern Dragon Ball
@@donavanboykin9489 We won't get that until we get past the end of Z which won't happen because people's reaction to GT.
In Vegeta's defense, it's been a few years, and they're training with frikkin' Broly now, so I have to imagine that by Super Hero they are stronger than in ToP. If Vegeta is estimating they still haven't caught up to where Jiren was, that actually is pretty hype for Jiren. Who knows what Jiren has been up to in that same time.
probably less than a year I'm sure dende pulled something so make the wish happen
@@kingdragongamer2648 No, Pan had to age up. Bulla/Bra was still a newborn in Broly, so that wasn't long after ToP. Pan was still in diapers then.
And that my friend is the whole kicker! Jiren has gotten all the way to Angel levels of power by himself just imagine how strong he has gotten now?! It seems to be he still is the strongest mortal definitely more than likely training way more after fighting Goku in the tournament of power. Can you even imagine??
This is probably one of those things that was heavily affected by the Beerus retcon and the gods of destruction in the manga, like, they LITERALLY said Jiren is stronger than a God of Destruction in his BASE, then the mf surpassed his limits and he was even stronger, like WTF?
So Belmod was lying and Jiren was an ant compared to him?
They fucked up many things with that.
Nobody truly knows how strong Beerus is. As for Jiren, he probably is strong but not ridiculously strong like how Toei portrayed him to be.
It’s stated in numerous guides that he is and even Beerus state initial MUI surpass him(Before Jiren goes LB)
@@jasonone8726 Whis said Belmod was stronger than Beerus in the anime.
@@jasonone8726 Episode 93, look it up, and yeah, anime only
There doesn't need to be too much said about this.
- Jiren handled Goku, Vegeta and 17 at the same time with ease
- Jiren pushed back Spirit Bomb with his eyes against SSBKx20 Goku
- Stated to be stronger than a God of Destruction
Like Goku and Vegeta were clearly no where near him. It's obvious. So who cares what Goku says. He's a clown anyway.
I really dislike what the franchise has become. Especially how they gave Gohan a @$$pull power up that "Apparently" made him surpass Goku & Vegeta who has God techniques that can only be achieved through training.
If you honestly believe for even a second that they'd let Gohan become stronger than both Goku AND Vegeta... I just don't know what to tell you. They say stuff like that all the time in order to hype up their movie.
I mean he is a hybrid so it kind of makes sense only one that was shitty was Picollo's
*Broly gets stronger than goku and vegeta and needs a blue fusion to beat him and is wanked so much that some people actually argue he could beat beerus, UI goku or UE vegeta*
Fans: yeah brolys cool
But when it's gohan people always freak out. It's like dragon ball fans are hypocrites. Broly and Gohan both don't have real good expmanation for their power but people just shrug off broly and focus on gohan.
I hate how the writers are just giving everyone asspull power ups.. piccolo wishing to be stronger is corny to me n not believable and Gohan surpassing everyone makes ZERO sense.. the writers at the very least could of had Gohan x piccolo train with whis at least then their transformations would make more sense
@@ReignofIndepence And how long did he stay the strongest?
i didn’t think too much of it, it’s pretty much a good thing really. If Jiren showed that much power through just have better control of it, just think about what Vegeta and Kakarot can do once they achieve that same level of mastery, and they’re already OP‼️
as for which version of the characters Gohan was referring to, as of the time of this comment, the anime hasn’t made its return yet, and assuming they’ll adapt the Moro and Granola arc eventually, it’s currently NOT canon. Meaning Gohan was referring to Goku’s and Vegeta forms in Broly, that being SSB and SSB evolved
The line arguably works fine in the context of the manga compared to the anime. Beerus in the manga says they could've taken down Jiren since the beginning if Goku and Vegeta just worked together. And Goku wouldn't try fighting anyone 1v1 with their universe on the line unless he really thought there was some way to overcome a power gap.
I never take character quotes to seriously cause it changes time to time and always so far off the truth every time
Or, the cause of this problem has the simplest source, which is Toriyama simply forgot exactly how strong Jiren was at the ToP and is only is thinking about what is useful to say at the immediate moment.
-Goku trains with Whis: Ultra Instinct
-Vegeta trains with Beerus: Ego Vegeta
- Gohan screams for 5 seconds: I'm top dog now
More like Gohan gets triggered by his PTSD from Perfect Cell lmao like he only snapped because of that previous encounter he had with the real cell. It’s so dumb but whatever this can of BS worms was opened when granola wished for strength.
@@ReignofIndepence yeah 17 is the biggest ass pull since he was always active in trunks timeline but he didn’t get any stronger
Gohan has literally gone into beast mode, lol.
@@rohankulkarni9213 picolo is said the same and he knows what he is saying
@Alvesama Exactly
"Jiren wasn't that far ahead of us."
Jiren literally opened his eyes and made Beerus shit his pants.
Whis only chimes in on Vegeta's claim about training the mind over the body and not Jiren's power, so it could be interpreted as Vegeta getting those parts about Jiren's overall technique in wielding his power correct, but Whis doesn't bother correcting him about how Jiren also wields utterly massive raw power that bellies even Gods of Destruction as he himself observed during the Tournament of Power.
Both anime and manga, as well as promotional materials, made note of how Jiren's raw power was on-par with or surpassed that of the Gods of Destruction.
It's probably due to Toriyama being forgettable most of time. He worked on this film before the Broly movie and they said it took them 5 years of making this CGI movie. Some of the lines contradict the anime that makes you scratch your head
I just don’t think Gohan can possibly be stronger I thought going into their god forms mean that they have perfect control of their Ki? So how can Gohan do that ?
same way Broly overpowered god ki without having any of his own: plot and just sheer rage and power
@@yee9098 exactly!
God Ki means nothing the moment you realize Shin has God Ki and he's been getting his ass kicked for millennia
@@diegomedina9637 got a point lol
@@nissanzenkiboy Yeah people should take the idea of God Ki being this omnipotent force.
The more I dissect this movie, the more I realize that Toei really need to use Toriyama’s entire script for both this movie and the Broly movie and retell the stories to where they make sense to the anime. They also need to scrap some of these illogical controversial lines like this Jiren line.
Agree 💯. That line is awful! Jiren was obviously way stronger than Goku and Vegeta at the beginning of the tournament! Jiren freakin tanked Vegeta’s Final Flash!!!
Why do Dragon Ball fans love to complain about inconsistencies even though there have been millions since Z we all know that Toriyama just writes what comes out of his ass
Wait wait wait jiren wasnt that strong?! He tanked a spirit bomb, fought a blue kaioken,ssbe and android 17 at the same time. And one shotted kale in berserker
When Vegeta says Jiren wasn't all that stronger than them.. that's his ego talking
No he literally explains what he meant in detail
@@animeperspective9866 still his ego
@@maineventfrow whis confirmed it so.....
Why do alot of you whom have not watched the entire movie comment as if you have watched the entire movie?
@@animeperspective9866 because of my ego just like Vegeta
Honestly this movie was cool but it literally just destroyed everything tbh. The Jiren disrespect is real considering when 17 blew himself up in the anime to try and do something. I guess this is why the DB heroes anime was created.
Also in the movie gohan doesn't train but in the manga he kept training after the ToP
In the movie, Gohan stated he was practicing the special beam cannon though, which of course requires ki. This counts as training though doesn't it?
Adding in my own point here: And Gohan was SSB strength in the ToP if we count the anime. Nothing in Super Hero implies he lost power since then, because he transformed to Ultimate with ease.
the movie looked good most of the time and the fight scenes were really fun to watch but the plot of the movie is still kinda lame to me. I'm sure it was hard to create a scenario where there's a big threat while also finding some weird way to keep vegeta and goku out of it so gohan gets to shine. they did it but it didn't feel like a really believable circumstance but I guess at least they seemed to poke fun at the ridiculousness when they joked about just wishing them back to the planet. i'm not a fan of the new form but I am more curious where / when we'll see it again? like are they going to bring this form in the anime? or just in the next movie? and will gohan get more screen time now that he's presumably more caught up in strength? 🤔
I think when vegeta said that about jiren he was referring to goku and himself currently
That’s what makes the most sense
I thought it was him just being egotistical and unwilling to admit the power gap was that wide. As if there’s “a trick” that made him “seem strong”. So he justified that difference between them.
He literally compared their tournament of power selves to that jiren so he was not meaning them currently
When Vegeta made that statement I’m saying to myself “you left the ring with a black eye and gave your last ounce of energy to Goku” he was definitely THAT STRONG Vegeta 😆😅
He was this time Gas didn't even put him down he ran out of energy and passed out do they did him some justice right there
2:05 not necessarily in accurate if you look at it from the perspective of a weak master vs a strong beginner.
Perhaps it means that jiern was only relatively as powerful as Goku and Vegeta, being a bit ahead of them, but he had just practiced so much he mastered the ability to basically not waste a single ounce of his ability.
Remember how Goku had to learn to contain his aura because it was actually just ki being wasted, what if that's what jiern was doing by containing it and re directing all of it into his attacks.
I could be completely wrong though
I take it as an odd line and to be fair, Vegeta said what he thinks is true, it does not mean that it is necessarily real. He thinks Jiren used his powers effectively but he does not know the real answer.
But then again, Toei and Toriyama loves to screw with established materials so who knows.
Agreed. Vegeta is always making egotistical comments like that. Toriyama wrote it bc it is part of Vegeta’s character, not bc it is true outside of his opinion. How many times has Vegeta said he will win the fight this time or beat Kakarot lol
tbf whis confirmed it to be true
@@issy785 absolutely true. alot of people comment whom have not watched the movie lol.
@@issy785 Knowing Whis and his previous comments, I thought he was saying that if Goku and Vegeta would focus more then they to have the potential to be just as strong. Like Gohan if he would train. But who knows, Toriyama does whatever he wants and is always switching things around. Maybe Whis said it as truth or as a motivational tool.
Agreed, the fact that it was Vegeta that said it, while still an odd line, I mean it's not like he's not done this before. He basically said something similar in his first fight with Perfect Cell right before Vegeta got back cracked by him. I think it would have been a bigger deal if Goku had said it, that's just me though.
In the anime, Jiren was beating Goku and Vegeta while they were working together, Vegeta used his evolution form, and Goku was at full power. Jiren was waaaaay stronger than them.
It feels like toriyama is intentionally making terrible decisions regarding Goku's personality (Making him more of a fool then before) and Gohan's developement (Instead of him training after the Universe Survival, he's back to being a rusty fighter and the way he got his new "Beast" form feels unoriginal which shows that the toriyama really didn't care about him but he added him in the movie for fanservice in a way that it's slightly dissatisfying.)
Im a jiren and vegeta fan but it’s obvious jiren would win easily against goku even ui goku but plot armor .
Wrong
horrible writing...yeah this film was filled with contradictions...handing gohan another transformation...portraying goku as a impatient reckless fighter and Vegeta as the more composed fighter ...downplaying how powerful Jiren was who tanked everyone ...beyond sad
Legend > Super hero
Nah super hero was better for me felt like a real dragon ball movie
Nope and I'm so glad literally no one agrees with this.
Your about to get bombarded with people saying how dumb your comment is.
Both legend and and super hero are great. It’s just that this fandom is full of hypocrites. They complain that super hero has fan made like transformations and no explanations yet when something like legends other fans made things do it it’s immediately everyone praises it for its creativity. The love the fan made form goku assumed in legends but they hate orange piccolo and beast gohan because it looks fan made but was done by toei.
@@zachw7609 not true the super hero movie was dope asf much needed power ups and spotlights for those characters however!!!!! The fan made Legends is a lot more interesting and the art is beyond amazing as well the transformations make sense with the tails legends just makes sense🤌🏿✨
Oh I thought you were another one of those people who hate on super just because. My mistake
I haven't seen it officially but I've seen all the Spoilers which is essentially the entire movie. Based on that alone, the movie is not that good. This movie are for those that don't really analyze what they're watching or for children. Nothing wrong with that
But for those who actually analyze a movie from all aspects, this is not a "good" movie
Fan Manga DragonBall Rage would've been a FAR better Plot for this movie and most fans would agree. DragonBall Rage is what Super should be right now. Not what they're currently putting out but 🤷🏾
As you said, "Cheap Writing"
@@jasonone8726 you seem like you the type to call everything about Super good and you're happy with whatever they put out. If that's you then ok but other ppl live in Reality where we point out all Flaws regardless if we're fans or not
And Super has a lot of fuckin Flaws
@@justvibesuno I feel like people are just fooled by the hype. no way this movie's good. At best you can call it okay. I think it's visually really fun
I feel like the entire franchise has been on the chaos road now the manga not fucking this god awful arc and the anime not being a thing until now. If the anime had come out before this movie we finally would have had like true power scaling kinda.
I really hope they explain Beast Gohan
They did in an interview. It’s bullshit narrative wise but it makes sense given what we know about Gohan
I figure it's just the next step of ultimate he broke his limits and it created a new form
@@ss4kaioken295 right that makes sense but ain't no way it's stronger then you UE or MUI when he doesn't train and take fighting serious Vegeta said he can be the strongest if he does that but he hasn't so i like it but it needs to be explored for sure
@@JakeTylenol naw we know gohan is stronger then goku when he was younger so he has greater potential and stronger potential also he first get super saiyen 2 from anger so he similiar to broly but better etc beast is just super saiyen 4 for in super
@@t.montonmusic9344 gohan fought toe to toe with goku blue in ultimate only slightly weaker and didnt he tank goku kamehameha withoit holding back so I assume beast super saiyen 4 is around vegeta blue 2 level
My opinion is that Vegeta was just overestimating himself and Goku, he always does that.
If Goku said then it would be really weird and I'll hate that line even more.
that could be!
It crazy cause Jiren was supposed to be this Mortal that reach G.O.D level, and for Vegeta to say that to Goku, really throw thing off.
I think there should be another person who writes the story
Toriyama's story is getting weirder
This. Look I respect Toriyama but his days is gone. From dumb power scale to lazy lazy recolor design, I prefer Toriyama just stop making DB now...just let him oversee it that all
The whole Goku vs Vegeta scene made it seem like Goku doesn't know what he is doing even tho he is supposed to be a master at martial arts. Vegeta saying to him they should concentrate and meditate made no sense at all.
I think it again has to do with Toriyama not watching the anime the statement about Jiren not being that stronger then Goku and Vegeta would make more sense in the manga context where Toyotaro followed Toriyama notes very closely because the arc bored Toyotaro and he wanted it over and done with where the anime introduced a whole other form for Jiren that wasn’t even Toriyama idea so we can’t take anime Jiren into consideration in the context of this movie we should use manga Jiren because he closer to Toriyama Vision of Jiren and he wrote the script for this movie
@@secoTheSonicFan That's still on Toriyama because of the vague-ass manuscript he gave them. Also, he Toyotaro also hyped up Jiren in the manga as well. It's as if they don't reread or pay attention to their own shit.
@@Violent_Wolfen Lol I finally found someone who mentioned Toriyama and how vague his manuscripts may have been. It gets even more funnier when you realize Toriyama originally didn't even provide a personality for Jiren in the outlines. Toei had to make it up, then Toriyama saw it, and then gave the actual personality which was different from what Toei had in mind. Toei then gave that personality to Toppo.
But yeah, the idea of Jiren using pure efficiency with his techniques is something that was clearly stated in the manga. I don't recall this being in the anime version.
Although DBS Super Hero seems to take place exclusively in the anime continuity (being made without Moro and Granolah in mind), it seems as if Toriyama uses the DBS manga as basis for DBS along with his own headcanons. It honestly makes sense, since Toriyama apparently checks over the manga chapters every month.
You know when I saw Jiren i thought omg he is him and now Toriyama sensei is saying no he is not him 🤣🤣🤣
Yeah. I also felt that they nerfed Jerin with that line. It literally took them everything to defeat Jerin in the tournament of Power.
We are acting like Goku didn't fight better when Goku Black told him that he killed his family. Look like Goku was super focus and serious
My problem with the movie is the fact that Gohan went back to training in Super after realizing what happened to future Trunks and then he goes back to being irresponsible, not training at all again. It felt so out of character to hear him say "if a villain appears Goku and Vegeta can deal with them" after the whole dedication he showed in his fight against Goku blue, he even was determined to find a different power. That all went to the trash.
It feels like they don't know how to write Gohan, he is always the guy that gets a power up, stops training and then gets another power up and then stops training... It would be fine if the guy actually didn't felt like changing but that's not what happened.
In the movie, Gohan stated he was practicing the special beam cannon though, which of course requires ki. This counts as training though doesn't it?
Adding in my own point here: And Gohan was SSB strength in the ToP if we count the anime. Nothing in Super Hero implies he lost power since then, because he transformed to Ultimate with ease.
Like, th concept that Jiren was incredibly good with his technique and understanding how to use his power effectively to that degree is what truly separated him from Goku and Vegeta is definitely awesome (reminds me of Trunks vs Perfect Cell, with the larger Super Saiyan 2 technique), but to include "he wasn't that much stronger than us" does reduce it too much. I don't mind if they want to retcon Beerus' power. Like I get it, his power statements were made before you decided to go further forward with Super and so you want Beerus to still be a goal for Goku, but this is nuts.
Still, whatever honestly. Power scaling is something that I think has to basically be a myth in Dragonball at this point.
I will say tho, this change does make the whole "base Goku and Freiza defeating him with Android 17" make a lot more sense. He lost his computer and was letting his power slip so he was easier to defeat (along with being weakened).
But again, power levels/scaling, and how strong someone truly was tends to be all over the place. Once DBZ/S hit a certain point, this was bound to happen. It's always had a problem with "new enemy completely overshadows old enemy like it's nothing" and now they are finally going "well maybe the villains don't need to be that much stronger" but still show it/hype it the way they've always done
Vegeta nerf Jiren??? Nooooo! 😐
Take Vegeta's word if you wish, Jiren STILL handled everyone thoroughly. Rewatch the episodes as much as you like.
Again I say this was done to close the distance between Gohan & Piccolo, & Goku & Vegeta, & NOT have it be so shocking that Gohan & Piccolo caught up/surpassed them. Again supporting proof that Cell Max IS stronger than Broly.
Jiren was way stronger no killing and out of bound arena was unfair because then he would just nuke everyone their and his comrades before goku even mastered ultra instinct so he was handicap hard also because no killing android lived also goku survive through monologue plot armor and power lending and team work
Jiren in manga was did dirty though also in xenoverse hero mission jiren is on level of goku and gets fusion blue because that what was used beat super saiyen 4 broly and jiren obviously stronger then broly and are currently fighting still think it weird gravity power can work on hit and jiren thougj
Honestly even without that statement jiren at this point is still fodder to current MUI goku, UE vegeta, Beerus, or even Beast Gohan.
Remember even prime Moro before even absorbing 73 could arguably beat jiren. So current characters would stomp.
@@ericx6969 agreed. Jiren bodied Vegeta & Goku repeatedly during the TOP with a handicap in both the anime AND the manga. If it weren't for the no killing rule, Jiren solos the entire TOP in less than a second. Not that much stronger my ass. Good one Vegeta 😂
Beerus isn’t that much stronger than Goku or Vegeta, he just sleep- MEDITATES, a lot. 🗿
I know this is random but I hope if they give Piccolo anymore transformations that they keep in the direction they’re going and make him as huge and buff as Lord Slug. I feel like besides it being orange, that his look was kind of going in that direction.
I think his Orange form is already more buff than Slug. Look at his arm, way more bigger than Slug
@@shawziiz5031 maybe he is, I haven’t seen that movie in awhile but I always thought he was way bigger.
My translation of the vegeta line says
"Jiren was so overwhelmingly strong. And yet, his power really wasn't so different from our own."
Not sure if its accurate. He talks about him being total effcient with his power. But again, these are things that classic Goku would have picked up on first. Everyone always praised Goku for how he was a natural at fighting and all things related. Instead, which is fine, Vegeta does. What isn't fine is that they make Goku shocked and acts stupid about such things. Dragon ball super does Goku dirty.
The entire movie was a problem.
It wasn't that bad
@@bahamut1169 Yes it was.
Orange piccolo and white haired are ideas I had in high school back in 2001 which just goes to show you how unoriginal they were. If my dumbass had the idea so did many other fans over the past 20 years which makes this feel like he borrowed from the many fan projects that have existed since Z ended.
When they give us dumb lines like this I just pretend the character doesn’t know what they’re talking about in the moment lol
The problem with it is at the time of this upload, it STILL has not come out globally
This movie was absolutely amazing and almost as good as the broly movie and I am so glad that it us a HUGE success so far in Japan but I do wish they explain beast gohan. Hope it's not just an asspull form that they never explain.
It's an awesome form possibly even cooler looking than UI and MUI but it still needs and explanation eventually.
I agree.
It wasn't really a huge success because it performed worse than a lot of movies in box office
The form looks pretty bad imo
Bro all toriyama said about beast gohan is that "he awakened the beast inside him" no overcomplicated answer its just a random rage boost to make adult gohan look good you could literally look this is up the only reason beast gohan has white hair and red eyes was because its the original design for SSJ before it was changed to yellow lmaooo
I feel like they’re just trying to find ways to nerf Jiren and Ultra Instinct as we are seeing in the Granola ark
I'm going to disagree with you, its the same concept as what the Yardrats did with Vageta. None of there abilities require large amounts of power, because they know how to utilize what is only necessary. Vageta did get a sizable power up from simply mastering his own power.... he didn't grow in actual strength.
What about vegeta saying that because of his own ego? He won’t admit he was so far behind and he’s justifying the power gap… that’s what I’d think of the comment
Imo, i think the line follows more closely to the manga and that its his personal take. We all know vegeta is cocky and always thinks he’s a cut above the rest. At this time in the story it would make sense if they weren’t too far behind where his power was then- almost using it as a benchmark or standard. They both have new forms now and is actively training. I do believe jiren been getting stronger which we would only know when he comes back into the series. Another thing is they never specified which gods jiren surpassed nor how many so he could have been just barely pass 2-3 gods but not beerus for example. With that in mind, it would also make sense on why goku and vegeta feel as if they cant catch beerus. Beerus was one of the gods jiren wasn’t stronger than. Everyone respected UI and jirens ability to compete but ultimately its a technique. Not ones strength itself. Too bad the staff likes to leave thing vauge🤦🏾♂️😭
@@23Raind lol you missed my point. Im sayin since he been training, he probably isn’t far off of what jiren was at the time they fought. They have for sure closed the gap to that form of jiren. As to how much jiren has progressed, nobody knows
@@23Raind i only brought up his arrogance because you wouldn’t hear nobody else saying anything close to it. Wether whis confirmed vegeta or not, vegeta is known for saying outlandish takes. Sometimes he can put his money where his mouth is, othertimes not. I wasn’t saying the statement was said just out of arrogance rather acknowledging that is some to begin with. Lol like its a major vegeta moment i guess you can say. Just because its arrogant doesn’t mean its not facts. (Lol sometimes💀😭)Also from the manga, beerus won the battle of destroyers which puts him above belmod. As you said yourself, we can’t attest to how they would rank in a fight so its all speculation until then. I wouldn’t just outright agree with vegeta but it did have merrit if we talking story wise. With each of their forms respectfully, goku and vegeta only sharpened their skills and became more adept fighters.
So Vegeta is a loser who hasn't evolved past buu saga, cool. That's not a good defense nor is he called out by Whis for saying it
@@bipstymcbipste5641 no, he evolved. And he is not called out by whis for saying it because its vegeta’s perception. Its what he thinks about the situation, not whis
The last statement sums everything up. They are most worried about entertainment than anything else
Couldn't agree more. Jiren's aura alone could stop a combination of ssb evolution final flash, ssb kaioken kamehameha and andriod 13 ki blast. And now, it's nothing more than focus and mental state, get out of town.
Geekdom how did you watch the movie did you use a VPN or sum cause i can't find any app or website to watch it or buy it
Hey Danny. In the promo of your twitch channel. What is the name of that fighting game? I used to play it in arcade in my dads old grocery store (bodega). I know this is dragonball. But I can't remember the name. And I have been searching the name for a while. Sorry sir. I know this is dragonball content.
Streets of Rage
As soon as Dragon Ball Z ditched the scouters, the power scaling has been very confusing.
Maybe Vegeta was underestimating Jiren.
I'm pretty sure we saw what Vegeta was saying in practice back in the ToP. Android 17 already discovered and exploited this "weakness" with the attack to Jiren's back (which in turn helps explain how 17 was weaker than the others but could still damage Jiren). I think this emphasized Jiren more as a martial artist rather than a raw powerhouse. This also helps explain why Jiren is mostly a counter fighter. If his power was simply all strength and no skill, then it would've been far more efficient for him to just barrel through everything, but if what Vegeta says is true then Jiren is choosing to not waste his energy rushing in and instead focuses on countering whatever is currently in front of him.
They didn’t just nerf jiren they nerf everyone in dragon ball just too make piccolo and gohan look good the final villain was a huge disappointment lack character development and gohan pulls transformation out of his ass
I didn't care for the CGI animation, should've been 2D. Super Hero was a joke, the teaser and trailer made the movie seem like a great comeback for Gohan with a new form, but ended up being a huge disappointed. It was great to see Gohan with his Teen hairstyle and his Cell Games uniform again. My biggest issue with Gohan was his fight with Cell Max, that was just a big letdown for me. Here's is how the plot should've been, I was hoping that Cell had been brought back from the dead to get his revenge on both Gohan and Hercule, by threatening to kill Pan and Videl. Cell would taunt Gohan by saying that Goku was not there to save him. Cell would then fight against, Piccolo, Android 18, Trunks and Goten without fusion. Gohan would have flashbacks to the Cell Games remembering Android 16, reawaken his Hidden Power to it's fullest and unleash his new fighting skills against his old enemy, finally killing Cell with a Family Kamehameha.
I'm just so sick of super at this point. The scalling is all over the place and makes no sense whatsoever. Honestly I DESPISE Gohan Beast for the implication that he is stronger than everyone now all because he got a little butt hurt (aww gonna cry lil baby? Like you used to do all the time?) Like you mean to tell me this common loot dropping character is now stronger than MUI Goku, UE Vegeta, LSSJ Broly, Full Power Jiren which would in turn also make him stronger than a G.O.D.??! WITH NO GOD KI???!!!!! Like I wouldn't even care if they made it make sense but no... Toei just wanted a rehash of the cell saga without anything that made that arc special, impactful or important. Cell max is a fucking joke and isn't anywhere near as intimidating as a perfect cell would have been (especially since Gohan never even saw cell until he was perfect already thus making cell max a total dropping of the ball, and Gohan had no reason to get a new form rushed at the last second. No build up, no effort and nothing about the movie was earned by ANYONE. I'm sorry geekdom but this movie was utter trash as far as plot and story goes. We as dragon ball fans need to stop accepting shit and praising it because "at least it's here"
Yeah I don't really mind the Jiren thing because Jiren is a multidimensional being and vegetas spirit training made him understand its not all about just training to build your body. My problem with that line is how goku does not understand. Mr. Popo literally trained him to use his 3rd eye he literally trained him to meditate. He's meditated plenty of times. Master Roshi said he had to train his mind to be a good figher, Said rest was part of training. How does he at this point NOT KNOW what Vegeta is doing?
I found it weird that Vegeta had to explain to Goku about conserving your power until the last second when that's literally what Goku did when he arrived on Namek. He confused the Ginyu Force because their scouters couldn't even detect it.
Even though i dread the inconsistencies, the so called ‘nerf’ isn’t really a nerf and makes perfect sense. Universe 7 (Goku and Vegeta) entered this tournament having not mastered control over the new power they wield. Jiren is the example of power and control. He meditates most of the tournament controlling the power then lets loose near the end. It has always been preached since Battle of the Gods that they needed to learn how to control their ki/power as they were extremely inefficient compared to Jiren.
I agree with the other world tourney note but it should also be noted that there have been ancient warriors there battling since time immemorial. There were weak and formidable fighters present. Its possible but then again they did build Cell up but i felt it was done to point out what i mentioned without having to explain it. But thats just my opinion. I could be way off or just wrong.
One thing I have a problem with is how no one on Beerus' Planet was able to sense (Orange) Piccolo and (Beast) Gohan's power when Goku was able to pick up on a MUCH weaker Gohan during Resurrection F.
I know its for plot convenience (cause Goku and Vegeta would've just I.T.'d to Earth and stole the spotlight), but they should still have a decent explanation.
Im guessing because 1 goku was busy fighting vegeta and 2 goku wasn't actively sensing out energyas he was focused on his battle
Whis likely did know just doesn’t care since he can’t intervene as well as Beerus. Goku and vegeta were in the middle of a fight so that’s most likely why.
Jiren was beating them boys ass without breaking his limits lmao
I don't know if goku and vegeta surpast jiren yet?
I agree Geekdom101.
The thing that ticked me off was when Vegeta was explaining the importance of mediation to Goku as if Goku had no clue what that was. Didn't Goku use meditation as part of his training in the Hyperbolic time chamber while training Gohan? Didn't Goku use meditation in the other world just before coming back to Earth to see his family during the Buu Saga?
I think Toriyama and his team have long stopped and cared about consistency. They've made their money!
He has. And Goku even had to talk Gohan done to control his fresh Super Saiyan rage. Meditation is about centering yourself , controlling your emotions, and he took that into optimizing Super Saiyan. Hell, he learned this stuff as a kid and you could see how more relaxed and focused he was. It's mind boggling how he regresses as a character in Super.
@@UnifiedEntity
It's just bad writing. There will always be plot holes... But this is bad and its getting worse. I've started watching Bleach again. Not prefect but man i appreciate Kubo's writing and attention to detail.
@@verticalperspective8039 Yeah, I've realized that. Even before Super, the bad writing has been so apparent since Revival of F and it's gotten so much worse by now.
I didn't like Gohans ridiculous hair and if Piccolo could of made that wish the whole time as long as Dende made the Dragon Balls stronger. Then he should've made that wish sooner rather than later cuz of the ToP. I really didn't like that Cell Max had no mind of his own
Man, that's just some issh Vegeta would say. It doesn't mean anything. I wouldn't think too hard about it.
Personally i didn't like the film story wise simply because its just a huge Nostalgia fest Cell, Gohan's hair looking like SS2 from the Android saga, Red Ribbon army but i get why they went that route its the safe route to take to make sure they make money and people happy
No matter what Vegeta said, we still saw what Jiren was able to do
No wonder why this movie is a flop.
We're at the point where expecting any level of lore consistency out of modern DragonBall is just almost out the window, unfortunately.
Was that in the dub or the sub? Dubs are notorious for ruining dialogue.
"Oh so we are all as strong as Jiren we just need to learn how to use our power"
The worst part was Gohan getting this new transformation somewhat easily and suddenly just because he was watching Piccolo get his butt kicked… as usual. Would have made way more sense if he thought Pan was seriously hurt or something like that
There were many lines in this movie that didn’t make sense 😂 the writing was bad but db is in a downward spiral anyways