I wish the “don’t ask don’t tell” sort of unspoken rule amongst queens had stuck around. It felt…. real. Especially with how common forbidden relationships are. They should just be allowed to be mysteries sometimes. Why not?
I agree! I wouldn't be surprised if forbidden romances were more common, but everyone had more sense to...just not ask who the father was unless the queen offered the information.
Honestly the unspoken rule was pretty cool for story-telling purposes. Idk why the authors threw it out, especially considering that they were writing stories before the 1st arc had taken place where it was still supposedly in effect. Mapleshade's Vengeance was kind of weird for that reason; while she mentioned that she was raising the kits alone and didn't want to disclose who the father was, everyone obsessed about it until the truth finally came out and they were all banished. I don't really read the books anymore, but weren't the clans supposed to be more strict with the warrior code and didn't the queen's rule exist at the time? The power of retcons is truly a powerful thing I suppose.
Exactly! If a she-cat didn’t want to say who the father was, than they shouldn’t have too. But now it’s “oh cool, your having kits, you better tell me who now or you’ll be banished forever” and I feel like they just said that so Blueoak wasn’t discovered sooner
Hearing Moonkitti explain things so clearly is so satisfying. These types of videos are probably my favorites, including the ones made for fun instead of addressing a problem tbh
Don't get the whole "Whitestorm being everyone's father" situation either. And why did they give Runningwind two kits that died instead of Brindleface's? Neither he nor his sister Mousefur had (surviving) kits, if they added their bloodline there could've been at least a little more genetic variety (Halftail and One-Eye didn't have anymore kits as well as far as I know, so their direct bloodline is completely dead now). Oh well
You know what could have been said? That her mate was one of the many thunderclan warriors who had recently died in the ongoing war over sunningrocks. That Ashfur and Ferncloud's father was someone we'd never see or get any character for because, like for instance, Redtail, he died before the book really started.
Uhhh Moon, you've got it all wrong. In the allegiances of Leopardstar's Honor there are two Whitestorms, older Whitestorm and younger Whitestorm. Since there are two Whitestorms, therefore one Whitestorm is mates with Willowpelt and one with Brindleface. D u h
Ok- I suddenly unironically REALLY like the idea of Brindleface's mate being a kittypet. For one thing, it explains to me part of why she had no objections to taking in Cloudkit. Secondly, I always liked the idea of queens keeping their mates secret if they wanted. It always implied, to me at least, that cross-clan relationships are actually a really common thing. (I also don't like that they were ever called 'forbidden' in the text itself, really. Technically speaking, there's nothing in the code stating they are. So long as your loyalty stays with your clan, I really don't see why it would or should matter to them.) Third, I also never liked Whitestorm being the kits' father anyways. It has bad implications, and now everyone is related through him and Ferncloud. Erins, plese, he's a good cat. Let him be a dad to his three canon-confirmed kits as it is :')
Whitestorm is one of my favorite characters and he's so sweet! I really hate the idea that he somehow was not there for his kits, especially considering I have family trauma that's exactly like that. It'd upset me so much. Which is why I agree with you completely there! It'd just make Whitestorm look awful and he doesn't deserve that, he's so nice!
I absolutely agree with this. Making Whitestorm the father of Ashfur and Ferncloud goes against his character. It always felt off that he was made their father, both narrative wise and character wise, as you pointed out in this video. Despite some explanations which might work, it felt a bit hollow. I had always hoped this retcon would be well... retconned. Edit: Retconned as in, change it back to not knowing the father or taking back the change.
Dappletail is at least 90 moons older than Runningwind, and if they had kits together, that means Dappletail was 90+ moons when her kits were born. I checked the wiki.
In all honesty, just from the genetic perspective, it would be good to have more loner/kittypet/rogue parents to clan characters to untangle the mess of families Buuut then again we all know that one of the favorite conflict points are half-clan cats and the "forbidden" relationships they sprang from, so i doubt it would ever happen
2:07 Brindleface also knows that Whitestorm is Bluestar's nephew and is a lot closer to her than anyone in the Clan. Bluestar also helped raise him so she trusts him more than anyone else in the Clan. Bluestar would of listened to him and there would be a higher chance of him talking sense into her. This is not proof that Whitestorm and Brindleface were in a relationship.
I feel like some of relationships were just like a sperm-donor thing. It helps keep the clan going with new kits, so it may be a common practice so that there aren't a lack of kits. It also makes sense considering some kit parents don't even seem to be mates at all, and barely act romantic to eachother, so they probably just reproduce for the sake of kits.
All I’ve wanted from this series for the past 10+ years was a clear family tree with updated, fixed relationships (ex: ALL that you mentioned and changing Dustpelt and Ravenpaw’s parents so Dustpelt would no long be Ferncloud’s uncle).
I never fully realized who was with who outside of fireheart/sandstorm for the most part honestly. Everyone in the background blended together. When I realized that Whitestorm had two mates (or at least I thought he did) it made me wonder who he was with in SC, then I realized it was never addressed, hell those cats never show up. Very convenient way to ignore the problem which makes me wonder if any cat who has had more than one mate will just fade into obscurity once they die to avoid that difficult question (especially since they really established SC as this heaven that overlooks the real world) I don't think cats know how to have contraceptives or whatever though, because look at Leafpool and Crowfeather...
I always thought Ash and Fern's dad was a dead warrior since Bluestar remarks they've lost a lot of "good warriors." My brain just went Oh it's probably one of them.
*SPOILER ALERT* A whitestorm súper edition is NEEDED I would like to see how one of the most noble and mature characters dealt with their mother’s death and if he really was Brindleface’s kit’s father.
I have always thought and will always hold onto the idea that Brindleface had a mate outside thunderclan that was never seen nor mentioned. Could be a cat from a different clan, could be a loner or a kittypet, but it doesn't matter. Whoever they were she has no ties to them and was always ready to be a single mom. I'm glad Whitestorm being the father is an easy bit of messy canon retcon lore to ignore. They don't force you to accept it. So far.....
I still think that redtail is the the father I mean the timeline matches up and redtail and brindleface had a litter so who says they couldn't have a second litter
I noticed that in the old family tree has blue star under unknown lineage, I guess it was created before Pinestar’s choice and spottedleaf’s heart? Where those books directly show who’s bluestar’s mother and father are?
You know, RUclips /randomly/ recommended this to me, and I don't even go here, but. Lawd have mercy. I understood the points, I understood the alternatives, and I laughed too. A+
Maybe Whitestorm was being sarcastic. "why yes Fireheart, what a great idea, by all means send my children who just lost their mother on a life-threatening mission, it will make them fearless or whatever."
i belive in the theory of darkstripe being ashfur and fernclouds father, then leaving brindleface when she takes in cloudtail, and im fine with whitestorm being their father tho, because his father is thistleclaw also, wasnt runningwind with redtail????
I used to think that Whitestorm was Ashfur and Frenclouds father Brindleface never told him because he and Willowpelt were also mates. Or the Brindleface’s kits were fathered by a rogue and only Bluestar knew and she just didn’t care
I think It be interesting to have Runningwind being Brindle's mate. But Whitestorm being there for them after Brindle's death is so cute to me, but as a more respectful older warrior way. I mean he knows how it's like to loose a mother, so I think him trying to ease them would be interesting Fernpaw maybe being the only one who accepts it, while Ashpaw gets snappy ( giving more detail to his mental health so his actions aren't out of the blue dhdh) Plus the fact the Tigerstar would have killed both thier parents definitely would fed into them wanting to prove themselves (and Fernpaw's discomfort with Darkstripe even more detailed as he be still obviously loyal to the cat who killed her parents)
Haven’t we proved that evilness isn’t genetic in Warriors with brambleclaw/tawny/moth? And every other Tigerstar descendant. That was a huge plot line if I remember right, of Bramble worried he was going to be just like his father but then being seen as “good”.
Yo I just looked this up Vicky said brindleface had redtail as a mate which means the father of brindleface kits could be redtail he could’ve gotten her pregnant before he died in batter
I definitely like the idea that Brindleface's kits were fathered by a kittypet. It lines up with the fact that she was so gentle with him and patient with him... a majority of the rest of the clan was mad that cloudkit was a kittypet, but she seemed unbothered.
@@spoongoon7742 that probably did happen, and it also covers up the issue of why the kits look almost nothing like any other single male cat in the clan. Besides whitestorm, (who I could totally see being the type of tom to help Brindleface out by letting her tell the clan that they are his kits even if they aren’t, like Thrushpelt but less involved) not to mention, in Bluestar’s Prophecy, it says that Brindleface and Whitestorm grew up together, (along with Tigerclaw and Frostfur) there isn’t any other single tom that would make sense to be their father due to their coloring
@@lumeanoastra1252 i mean to be fair ashfur having to bury his mothers corpse and then being encouraged to take revenge of her death PROBABLY messed him up
"My dad left to get milk, but he still lives two rooms down in the same house and work the same job as me, and eventually I'll have to live in the same room as him, but he will refuse to acknowledge my existence, or at least my existence of being his kid. But even now, while I live literally two rooms down, he will refuse to visit me or my mom, and will refuse to acknowledge any of our existences."
@@Amanecer458 It's called a dilute tortoiseshell, and yes, I agree. I make all of my Warriors designs follow cat genetics, and I make Sandstorm a light amber tortoiseshell so that I can at least make Leafpool a cinnamon torbie, but that's also a good way of justifying it.
I wish the author’s/working partners took a much more honest approach when answering fan questions that could potentially retcon in something. Just a simple “I don’t know, it didn’t matter so we didn’t write it” would be so less damaging to the already twisted up lore and family trees. Plus, I think there’s this really prevalent idea that storytellers NEED to have an answer for everything concerning their world, and that’s just not true or feasible. What is canon is that Whitestorm is a good boy, 10/10 deputy, what a great guy. I’d hate to see him get retroactivity Yellowfang’d. -_-
Exactly! I have a bad habit of overanalising everything so I can answer every question in existence but honestly, someone would probably ask me one I never considered and making stuff up on a go is probably worse than saying "idk"
Agreed! I want to be an author sometime in the future, and I’ll have to remember the Warriors team and JK Rowling whenever I’m asked a question that I don’t have an answer to. Honestly the responses, “What do you think?” And “I don’t know” Solve so many problems and they’re probably going to be what I’ll use if I do manage to make something people are willing to ask questions about.
I think Darkstripe being the father works better in terms of Ashfur, Ashfur being evil. Not in terms of “oh, evil is genetic” because Darkstripe wasn’t pure evil, just kind of stupid and biased. He follows the lead of who he believes in, and who he believes in is evil. But the idea that Darkstripe and Brindleface breaking up and Darkstripe abandoning his children after the adoption of Cloudkit could give Ashfur the possessiveness and fear of abandonment he’d need in order to justify things like trying to hurt Lionpaw in training. He thinks he was abandoned, again, and he begins to act irrationally and violently in anger to this perceived abandonment, and he snaps and attempts to kill Squirrelflight’s children, his rationalized reason for Squirrelflight “abandoning” him. TLDR; if darkstripe left his kids, ashfur could have severe abandonment issues and cling onto every relationship. he’s desperate. something, an event, makes him snap and he tries to destroy what he thinks is the source of squirrelflight “abandoning” him: the three. ashfur’s fire scene could have been so much better and made so much more sense
If the darkxBrindle thing took place, wouldn't they have broken up when the kits were less then a moon old tho? I kinda remember Brindle's kits being kinda young when everything went down
I honestly believe that Darkstripe was more of “sperm donor” if you know what I mean, maybe ashfur was like that because he was simply missing a father figure.
@@avacadotherainwing8457 They would’ve, but given that some people with infants do that irl and these are cats anyway, that’s just somewhat upsetting but not impossible
In my mind, white storm and brindle face didn’t work out as kits and broke up, then white storm moved on to willow pelt. It sounds pretty reasonable to me. :3
darkstripe being ashfur and fernclouds dad is so funny to me i’m calling it the darkdad au and the entire thing is just “do u wanna interact with ur children?” “nah”
@@iridiumSerpent exactly, why didn’t they just play into that real world cat behaviour? It makes things a lot easier to play with when it comes to how closely related the clan is getting and has already been. Honestly, breeding between the clans should be encouraged for the sake of diversity, so long as actual relationships aren’t a part of it for the sake of clan loyalty and such. Half-clan kittens should be welcomed.
Not to mention that Brindle and White were foster siblings. We have another foster sibling couple with Snowbush and Lilyheart too, and not many fans seem to have a problem with foster siblings getting together but I'd like to disagree bc it's as if implying that adoptive family is not considered "real" family.
@@almaszericebean1401 i wish the writers actually made decisions that made sense and kept up with what the hell is happening lol incest with these cats is still weird because they have human thinking and mindsets
all of this makes "fire alone will save our clan" less about battle prowess and whatnot and more about how firestar, someone from outside thunderclan who welcomes in kittypets/rogues/other-clan refugees and also has friends and descendants who have/are shaking the status quo about half-clan relationships is pretty much the only reason thunderclan isnt as inbred as it could be
Makes perfect sense to me. Because of him and his lack of prejudice, the clan was able to grow in numbers and strength again, and able to make relations and allies that would have been rejected in the past.
Its probably to try and please the people who build the family trees and complain when there are gaps. I know my brain gets fussy when I see missing information 😂
Graystripe’s Vow also totally rewrote Ashfur’s character. He was presented as constantly angry and argumentative like he was innately a villain. It completely deviated from the more interesting concept that his choices made him into a villain vs. he was born one. I wish the books would stop rewriting existing characters and focus on new engaging content…
I too dislike that the books make characters born evil. Like Brokenkit and Tigerkit. StarClan's warning of them was horrible... like what about nurture? No one should be /born/ evil. It doesn't make any sense. Unless they're somehow reincarnations of evil but really those who're reincarnated should NOT remember things typically. For me reincarnation should allow for another chance at life and to potentially find redemption for things in a past life. Like the slate is wiped clean, memories are wiped clean through a purification ritual of some sort... instead of total obliteration of the soul/spirit because really energy never disappears it just transforms.... that's my belief system anyway and even if it wasn't it'd be interesting narrative that deviates from Dark vs Light mentallty and allow the gray scale of morality to exist... **Potential Spoilers** and if Light cannot exist without Dark then doesn't that make the cats of The Place of No Stars(The Dark Forest) just as important as those cats in StarClan? Plotholes galore.
as another comment mentioned, the concept of “dont ask dont tell” for queens’ mates should have stayed around. it would make sense for brindleface’s kits to have been fathered by a complete outsider rather then a clanmate, but even so i like to believe it was runningwind whom fathered them (biased because runningwind is my favorite background character, though lmao)
Id headcanon darkstripe as ash/ferns dad because it makes the most sense in my opinion. Darkstripe could easily have been with Brindleface either out of love or obligation(or hiding his love for Tigerstar) and then when she had kits he was like nope I cant do this anymore, ala Spiderleg. Or redemption arc style, maybe Darkstripe denied fathering them so that if he went with Tigerstar they wouldn’t be judged for being related to him like what happened to tawny/bramble. I think that could be a really cool dynamic to explore in his character either way
True! Only issue I have is while I don't think it's an strick law, we see parents rarely mentor thier kits, so it be a bit odd for Bluestar just to decide to give Fernpaw to Dark when other cats were around. Runningwind to me seems the most interesting because it be a less lazy way to bring up Ashfur's fall as well as Ferncloud's discomfort with Darkstripe as her mentor As Runningwind had been killed by Tigerstar before Brindle, Ferncloud having to be mentored by the cat who had been the closest to her parents killer definitely be horrifying Ashfur being more willing to fight and aggression coming out more be a good contrast to Ferncloud with how they handled thier mothers passing, that being the last straw for Ash while Ferncloud still feeling a need to keep a level head to please a mentor she's scared of Of course think just me wanting more Ferncloud dhdhdhd
@@painthedoll I was on the dark stripe side so far, but your argument is very compelling and now I can’t choose which narrative I like better. Both explain things well, but I think your scenario is just slightly better. I vote Runningwind!
@@featherlightfox1292 honestly both could have such interesting implications for the two's characters! Obviously I have a soft spot for Ferncloud so I could imagine how hard it would be for her with either. If Runningwind, she's nervous about being mentored by someone like Darkstripe who had been close to the one who ultimately killed her dad and later mother. Yet show how strong she is compared to Ashfur even more as she never let that change her heart. Even if she was in more danger then him. Plus we'd could get to explore a character left practically forgotten, how Runningwind viewed his kits and made before his death. We know he was close to his sister Mousefur so it wouldn't be hard to figure he'd care a lot about his kits. Ashfur I think would, as he got older, be all the worse parts of Runningwind. Why Ferncloud shown to be a good mix of her mother and father. Caring mother but a tougher fighter. If Darkstripe, both would have that sense of betrayal with their father. Ferncloud feeling pressure under the mentorship of her father. I could also see the hurt learning he cared more about getting Tigerstar's Kin to safety rather then them who just lost their mother. I don't think Darkstripe would ever had been a good father, nor a good mate. If he had been their father I could see Ferncloud getting upset and frustrated when she notices Ashfur's change. It be interesting, but I think Runningwind could be a good chance to explore his character...plus it could give us Mousefur being 10/10 great-aunt when Ferncloud's kits are born. Her befriending Longtail would also be even sweeter cause he's technically Ferncloud's uncle as well on her mother's side Longtail and Mousefur being the funky aunt and uncle would be so fun to me gtgfg
Runningwind would have been an okay option: He was mentioned to not be working well with apprentices, so why not also with kits? That could explain a lot. Brindleface was always a very present mother who really enjoyed taking care of her children. She didn't need a mate to help her. Meanwhile Runningwind probably didn't want to spend time with the kits. In a weird way that couple complements each other.
I suppose that Brindleface just ended up mating with Runningwind, Darkstripe or any other random cats just for kits and not out of love. She seemed like she really enjoyed being in the nursery.
It’s pretty reasonable for Whitestorm and Brindleface to be friends since Brindleface was mentored by his grandfather and her sister was mentored by Bluestar, his aunt, who he’s pretty close too.
It was also mentioned in Bluestar's Prophecy that Whitestorm, Brindleface, Tigerclaw and Frostfur had known eachother since they were kits so I just headcannon these two as close childhood friends
@@Julie-rz3dw Yep, that's kinda why I like the surrogate father idea for Whitestorm. Not actually Brindleface's mate, but he was just a good friend to her and looked after her. I love to think that her actual mate was maybe from a different clan (which I think would be a really cool idea? I love the idea of a background queen successfully having half clan kits and getting away with it with no one noticing. Especially such a sweet cat like brindleface 😂. Whitestorm is also the kind of friend who would definitely pretend to be dad too so she wouldn't get into trouble lolol), or I could see Darktail or Runningwind being the dad and Whitestorm wanted to be there for his friend. This also works too because Willowpelt could have been in on the secret and fell for Whitestorm for being a surrogate dad so the kits would have a bit of a father figure 😂 or maybe they were together before and had an accident litter too soon hahaha
I never really thought much of the whole Whitestorm fathering Ashkit/fur, Fernkit/cloud, and the two kits who didn’t make it, who were retconned as being Tulipkit and Elderkit (I think those names are adorable btw) but now that you’ve really explained the whole situation I really do agree that it wouldn’t really make sense for his character as a whole because that’s just not something he would do. It’s just not the Whitestorm that we’ve come to know. As for the Smokey and Daisy thing, I think Smokey did care about Daisy in his own way but I don’t really think he actually loved her. Like kind of a scenario where maybe at one point he thought he did (I don’t think their relationship before Daisy joined ThunderClan was ever explained in much detail) but in the end he could only see her as a friend rather than a mate like he saw Floss or Coriander. Though I did really like how he named his kits in the Novella Daisy’s Kin Little Daisy and Coriander after Daisy and his late mate Coriander. I love your vids btw. Most of the Warrior Cats shorts are funny as heck and all of the I Spoils are just painfully accurate. 🤣💙
Bringing Smoky up again. I personally think he was supposed to represent real cats. Most male cats dont stick to one mate they just get a cat pregnant then go get another one pregnant. Ofc this isn't all but I've seen a lot of real life instances of this.
@@birdsbirdsandmorebirds6251 I agree with you, Smokey does seem like that kind of cat/character (not that it’s a bad thing). In a way it’s kind of like how Spiderleg was with Daisy. Like father wasn’t present in either the kits’ or the mate’s life (granted he never got another mate or anything). I do really like the point you bring up because it really makes sense. Also on the topic of Smokey representing real cats, I don’t think Smokey really cared that much when Floss’s kits were taken away did he? It’s been a while since I read the passage of Daisy’s decision to leave the barn in one of the field guides (I can’t remember which one it was). The reason I bring this point up is because for the most part male cats in real life don’t usually take much of an interest in their kittens’ lives.
I hadn't even considered it. Boulder already broke the warrior code by denying his leader's word of wanting to change his name, I can see him breaking the warrior code by being the sire of ThunderClan kits. Especially given around the time Ash and Fern were born, Boulder was following Brokenstar and he would see being with Brindleface as an opportunity for more kits for ShadowClan
I feel like the cats got WAY more anthropomorphized as the books go on.* In the start it was rare that toms cared about their kits just like cats in real life. Honestly I thought the books and especially the Fandom care too much about these cats being realistic. The Erins should've just let the background cats have emotions. *ETA: Forgot to say that I think the change was good. Having the characters be more human-like allows for deeper connection to the reader. These are supposed to be fantasy books not educational.
Agreed, imo people worry too much about knowing every genetic connection/queens caring who they mate with, and with kits looking like said parents like real cat genetics. So long as the main characters make sense I'm ok
Here's a thought: Willowpelt had kits with a rouge and Whitestorm took credit for them so she wouldn't get in trouble, and then felt too awkward to really parent them
That would make sense, considering how impossible it is for a white cat plus an almost white cat to produce two grays and a tortoiseshell. But I don't know much about genetics, so 👁️👅👁️
@@zvyxrii I think it actually might be possible! Gray / blue is a dilution of black fur, but shade isn't specified. And whitestorm isn't dominant white (blue eyes and deaf, think Snowkit) which leaves 100% white spotting. Which also means that white is "covering up" his base color - likely blue/gray because his dad is thistleclaw and his mother's sister is bluestar. As for sorreltail being a tortie, I think it's more of a nod to being related to redtail and spottedleaf than anything realistic. The Erin's aren't known for being genetically accurate, just look at firestars parents. He shouldn't be ginger lol. Anyway I love genetics and whitestorm don't mind me.
@@nightshademasquerade4703 irl cats take coat colours and patterns directly from their parents so if mums a white cat and dad is a white cat the kittens are going to be white Female cats will (irl) mate with multiple males when in heat and its not uncommon for litters to be fathered by several toms and have drastically different coats The cfa has a pretty good run-down on this
the idea of evil being genetic is really upsettimg to ppl w abusive/bad parents lol.... ive never liked it as a trope or whatever edit: HEY its okay if your experience as an abuse victim is different fromt his and it doesnt bother you! i didnt mean to generalize, i was speaking from my experience as a survivor. thank you please dont argue in the rwplies lol
@@someoneimsure There are people who have (including I) and that’s who they’re referring to specifically. Accusing of generalization can easily be interpreted as not seeing from other people’s perspectives. But you do you.
Imagine that the father of Frostfur's kits is a kittypet. Bluestar was her mentor, which is why she would insist that queen's don't need to explain the father if they don't want to when in every other series or super edition this doesn't happen,
@@1ceb3rg__ imagine when cloudtail dies, princess tells him his father is Oliver, the white fluffy kitty pet. then brindleface tells cloudtail about Oliver being his sorta father. then cloudtail realizes that he was around the same age as ferncloud and ashfur. cloudtail then thinks that Oliver had two mates and may have cheated on one
This is just more proof that there needs to be a fandom bible and that would be the job of the fandom consultant. So there needs to be a fandom consultant.
My headcanon is that whitestorm is graystripe’s father, because willowpelt is whitestorm’s mate and is also graystripe’s mother. Instead of having graystripe’s parents be siblings, that’s what I choose to believe anyway.
After Snowfur died Whitestorm was taken in by Robinwing. Brindleface's mother! Whitestorm and Brindleface are foster siblings (This was stated in Bluestar's prophecy)
Perhaps it would make sense for a cat outside the clan to be Brindlefaces mate/the kits father, and that Whitestorm finds out and acts distant due to it... And could also be one of the driving forces to why Brindleface accepted to care for Cloudkit. But that would still make him out to be a retcon because then he knowingly sends those kits to battle dogs.
Personally I think Redtail is the father. He was Sandstorm’s father, and his death would line up with a cat’s pregnancy length. Even if it is a bit longer, it could be affected by Brindleface’s grief, which could have been a factor of two of the kits dying.
Plus, and IK warriors doesn’t give 2 damns about real world genetics, as a male tortoiseshell cat, something that is usually a genetic impossibility or something that can lead to issues like infertility, if the kits were Redtail’s, then they could also suffer from genetic issues that could have killed them, which also supports that Redtail could be the father.
Soooo, it`s a headcanon-sharing time. I know nobody asked for it but still I think the idea of Stonefur being the father of Ashfur and Fernstraw is kinda okay. Consider this: Firstly, both Ashfur and Fernstraw are gray and in cats` genetics it requires both parents to be gray. Secondly, Stonefur is Appledusk`s descendent and that would mean that he would also suffer from Mapleshade`s curse and so would do his kits And here we go - Ashfur and his "loved too much"-issue and Fernstraw losing her 3 kittens (as she was alive) just the way Mapleshade did Also, Stonefur and his "kittens" died in very gruesome ways or suffered through their lives I mean, Stonefur/Blackfoot is cool, Brindleface/Redtail/Runningwid is cool, but this theory is okay-ish
In my headcanon, Brindleface was mates with Redtail but he was infertile so they couldnt have babies even though they really wanted to. They adopted an orphaned rogue kit who they named Sandkit but really wanted more babies. So Whitestorm offers to be a donor and that's what happens.
I like the idea of the old 'mothers don't have to tell anyone unless they want to' rule being there, but I think that at least the authors should have it mapped out. Like 'Brindleface and Smugde are the parents of Ash and Fern' written down somewhere, but that's never revealed to the audience since those are both background characters who Firestar (our narrative character) doesn't really spend much time with by the point that it's relevant. Family ties in the series aren't always super important, even to main characters, whereas some of them it's very important to. I think the Three is when familial ties became a bigger focus, and the old 'you don't have to tell' rule went out of the window. And, well... If they had stuck to the old rule and left it more ambiguous, we wouldn't have the issue now with Brindle and her siblings. We would have no idea and things would be less weird.
You could say it was a Hollyflower and Blizzardwing relationship, an accident, meaning Whitestorm didn’t want to acknowledge his second children when he was already mates with Willowpelt. Random thing I thought about but for the love of god, *WHITESTORM ISNT FERNCLOUDS AND ASHFURS FATHER*
I wish the “don’t ask don’t tell” sort of unspoken rule amongst queens had stuck around. It felt…. real. Especially with how common forbidden relationships are. They should just be allowed to be mysteries sometimes. Why not?
I agree! I wouldn't be surprised if forbidden romances were more common, but everyone had more sense to...just not ask who the father was unless the queen offered the information.
yeah, its cool, its cat-like, and mystery isnt the end of the world its interesting
Honestly the unspoken rule was pretty cool for story-telling purposes. Idk why the authors threw it out, especially considering that they were writing stories before the 1st arc had taken place where it was still supposedly in effect. Mapleshade's Vengeance was kind of weird for that reason; while she mentioned that she was raising the kits alone and didn't want to disclose who the father was, everyone obsessed about it until the truth finally came out and they were all banished. I don't really read the books anymore, but weren't the clans supposed to be more strict with the warrior code and didn't the queen's rule exist at the time? The power of retcons is truly a powerful thing I suppose.
Exactly! If a she-cat didn’t want to say who the father was, than they shouldn’t have too. But now it’s “oh cool, your having kits, you better tell me who now or you’ll be banished forever” and I feel like they just said that so Blueoak wasn’t discovered sooner
Plus you can avoid the whole genetic diversity problem because you can literally have a loner come by for a fling or something :0
I like the idea that Fern and Ash's father isn't ThunderClan, not even for a drama point, but just because it makes more sense than Whitestorm.
Yo I used to sware up,down,left,right and inside out their father was a kittypet. Thats why brindleface was so welcoming to fireheart and cloudkit.
A rouge if you will
JAKE
Maybe it was rain-fur from fire-stars quest he was a gray with dark gray flecks like ash and fern
@@birdsbirdsandmorebirds6251 jake makes it so squilf and ash cousins
YAY, Moonkitti’s gonna talk at me.
HFJDJFJF
@@fawnasaur i agree
I love it when she does that
YES, talk at me more
Hearing Moonkitti explain things so clearly is so satisfying. These types of videos are probably my favorites, including the ones made for fun instead of addressing a problem tbh
Don't get the whole "Whitestorm being everyone's father" situation either. And why did they give Runningwind two kits that died instead of Brindleface's? Neither he nor his sister Mousefur had (surviving) kits, if they added their bloodline there could've been at least a little more genetic variety (Halftail and One-Eye didn't have anymore kits as well as far as I know, so their direct bloodline is completely dead now). Oh well
You know what could have been said?
That her mate was one of the many thunderclan warriors who had recently died in the ongoing war over sunningrocks.
That Ashfur and Ferncloud's father was someone we'd never see or get any character for because, like for instance, Redtail, he died before the book really started.
Whitestorm is a cat.
This means that he has intelligence.
Edit: WOW I DIDNT EXPECT THIS TO BLOW UP!! 218 likes!!!
Jake is no longer everyone's father whitestorm is everyone's father
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh
Uhhh Moon, you've got it all wrong.
In the allegiances of Leopardstar's Honor there are two Whitestorms, older Whitestorm and younger Whitestorm. Since there are two Whitestorms, therefore one Whitestorm is mates with Willowpelt and one with Brindleface.
D u h
ThunderClan cloned Whitestorm confirmed
Obviously how could i not notice this
Ok- I suddenly unironically REALLY like the idea of Brindleface's mate being a kittypet. For one thing, it explains to me part of why she had no objections to taking in Cloudkit.
Secondly, I always liked the idea of queens keeping their mates secret if they wanted. It always implied, to me at least, that cross-clan relationships are actually a really common thing. (I also don't like that they were ever called 'forbidden' in the text itself, really. Technically speaking, there's nothing in the code stating they are. So long as your loyalty stays with your clan, I really don't see why it would or should matter to them.)
Third, I also never liked Whitestorm being the kits' father anyways. It has bad implications, and now everyone is related through him and Ferncloud. Erins, plese, he's a good cat. Let him be a dad to his three canon-confirmed kits as it is :')
Yeah, the whole Whitestorm thing confused me as a kid. Thanks for clearing this up Moon.
Whitestorm is one of my favorite characters and he's so sweet! I really hate the idea that he somehow was not there for his kits, especially considering I have family trauma that's exactly like that. It'd upset me so much. Which is why I agree with you completely there! It'd just make Whitestorm look awful and he doesn't deserve that, he's so nice!
I absolutely agree with this. Making Whitestorm the father of Ashfur and Ferncloud goes against his character. It always felt off that he was made their father, both narrative wise and character wise, as you pointed out in this video. Despite some explanations which might work, it felt a bit hollow. I had always hoped this retcon would be well... retconned.
Edit: Retconned as in, change it back to not knowing the father or taking back the change.
Dappletail is at least 90 moons older than Runningwind, and if they had kits together, that means Dappletail was 90+ moons when her kits were born. I checked the wiki.
In all honesty, just from the genetic perspective, it would be good to have more loner/kittypet/rogue parents to clan characters to untangle the mess of families
Buuut then again we all know that one of the favorite conflict points are half-clan cats and the "forbidden" relationships they sprang from, so i doubt it would ever happen
2:07 Brindleface also knows that Whitestorm is Bluestar's nephew and is a lot closer to her than anyone in the Clan. Bluestar also helped raise him so she trusts him more than anyone else in the Clan. Bluestar would of listened to him and there would be a higher chance of him talking sense into her. This is not proof that Whitestorm and Brindleface were in a relationship.
can't forget about the two most popular kits, "Thorrkit" and "Brackerkit"
Considering Darkstripe is in parts of the Broken Code book I like to think he would follow Ashfur because he is his son.
ashfur is literally the epitome of fatherless behavior
I feel like some of relationships were just like a sperm-donor thing. It helps keep the clan going with new kits, so it may be a common practice so that there aren't a lack of kits. It also makes sense considering some kit parents don't even seem to be mates at all, and barely act romantic to eachother, so they probably just reproduce for the sake of kits.
I'm on the verge of making an Ao3 fic with custom clans & rules that is also ◇•°~ gay ~•°◇
All I’ve wanted from this series for the past 10+ years was a clear family tree with updated, fixed relationships (ex: ALL that you mentioned and changing Dustpelt and Ravenpaw’s parents so Dustpelt would no long be Ferncloud’s uncle).
I never fully realized who was with who outside of fireheart/sandstorm for the most part honestly. Everyone in the background blended together. When I realized that Whitestorm had two mates (or at least I thought he did) it made me wonder who he was with in SC, then I realized it was never addressed, hell those cats never show up. Very convenient way to ignore the problem which makes me wonder if any cat who has had more than one mate will just fade into obscurity once they die to avoid that difficult question (especially since they really established SC as this heaven that overlooks the real world)
I don't think cats know how to have contraceptives or whatever though, because look at Leafpool and Crowfeather...
I wanna buy ur baby evilface thingy oml
I always thought Ash and Fern's dad was a dead warrior since Bluestar remarks they've lost a lot of "good warriors." My brain just went Oh it's probably one of them.
Do you guys think brightheart named whitewing after whitestorm?
no because i cackled at “I AM NOTHING” for a full three minutes
*SPOILER ALERT*
A whitestorm súper edition is NEEDED I would like to see how one of the most noble and mature characters dealt with their mother’s death and if he really was Brindleface’s kit’s father.
brindle face is a mushroom
Finally someone understands.
I have always thought and will always hold onto the idea that Brindleface had a mate outside thunderclan that was never seen nor mentioned. Could be a cat from a different clan, could be a loner or a kittypet, but it doesn't matter. Whoever they were she has no ties to them and was always ready to be a single mom.
I'm glad Whitestorm being the father is an easy bit of messy canon retcon lore to ignore. They don't force you to accept it. So far.....
I still think that redtail is the the father I mean the timeline matches up and redtail and brindleface had a litter so who says they couldn't have a second litter
Alternative tiltle: Exposing Whitestorms life
2:25 Let's just ignore the fact that ThunderClan has 35 warriors
I noticed that in the old family tree has blue star under unknown lineage, I guess it was created before Pinestar’s choice and spottedleaf’s heart? Where those books directly show who’s bluestar’s mother and father are?
I feel like it would probably be a rogue/loner/kittypet, but she hid the truth and just didn't tell the father.
Btw, for anyone wondering brindle face is sand storms mother
I always thought of Whitestorm as a DIY Thrushpelt.
I think the Whitestorm theory was just a “these two characters shared a positive moment, ship ‘em” scenario, that’s not unheard of in a fandom
mm yes my favourite kits: Brackerkit and thorrkit
Why did my stoned ass take so long to understand the title😂😂😂
You know, RUclips /randomly/ recommended this to me, and I don't even go here, but. Lawd have mercy. I understood the points, I understood the alternatives, and I laughed too. A+
I thought lion heart was the father of cinder, bright, bracken, and thorn?
He is, it's just not mentioned in the books.
Maybe Whitestorm was being sarcastic. "why yes Fireheart, what a great idea, by all means send my children who just lost their mother on a life-threatening mission, it will make them fearless or whatever."
i belive in the theory of darkstripe being ashfur and fernclouds father, then leaving brindleface when she takes in cloudtail, and im fine with whitestorm being their father tho, because his father is thistleclaw
also, wasnt runningwind with redtail????
Baby ashfur's majestic hair
I'm so glad I'm not the only person who thinks this! It always made me feel weird when I would see people arguing over this point.
I used to think that Whitestorm was Ashfur and Frenclouds father Brindleface never told him because he and Willowpelt were also mates. Or the Brindleface’s kits were fathered by a rogue and only Bluestar knew and she just didn’t care
Moonkitti is very correct-i didnt even know who runningwind was.
I think It be interesting to have Runningwind being Brindle's mate.
But Whitestorm being there for them after Brindle's death is so cute to me, but as a more respectful older warrior way.
I mean he knows how it's like to loose a mother, so I think him trying to ease them would be interesting
Fernpaw maybe being the only one who accepts it, while Ashpaw gets snappy ( giving more detail to his mental health so his actions aren't out of the blue dhdh)
Plus the fact the Tigerstar would have killed both thier parents definitely would fed into them wanting to prove themselves (and Fernpaw's discomfort with Darkstripe even more detailed as he be still obviously loyal to the cat who killed her parents)
Yay moonkitti lecture about cats! Love these vids
When in doubt make an OC go fanfiction designers to your art programs
Whitestorm.exe has stopped working.
Maybe it was whitestorm but bc he never actually had a good family he didn't know what to do or something
"You cant do anything with whitestorm hes a person!"
Me: Hes a *cat*
Willowpelt is mother to Darkstripe, Graystripe , AND Sorrelkit. Dark tries killing Sorrel, then Gray kills Dark. lol....
Haven’t we proved that evilness isn’t genetic in Warriors with brambleclaw/tawny/moth? And every other Tigerstar descendant. That was a huge plot line if I remember right, of Bramble worried he was going to be just like his father but then being seen as “good”.
Yo I just looked this up Vicky said brindleface had redtail as a mate which means the father of brindleface kits could be redtail he could’ve gotten her pregnant before he died in batter
Not to mention the fact that Whitestorm and Brindleface are foster siblings. Which, while not blood siblings this is still weird.
True answer: Father is an unnamed tom, done
Ah yes Bristlefrost, Flipclaw and Thriftear
The ultimate related to each other scenario
Maybe Whitestorm is the new Jake. He’s everyone’s father! :)
whitestorm x jake when lol
@@artykeldeo now
@@firecatinblack understandable, have a great day
also im gonna enjoy the no “omg hi!” replies at the moment
@@firecatinblack brb making ship art
Lol
Head Cannon: Clan cats can reproduce asexually, but they stopped because they didn’t want to confuse Fireheart.
headcanon accepted
YEs
Queens: oh shit time for my mitosis
*Yes*
they said femometer
I definitely like the idea that Brindleface's kits were fathered by a kittypet. It lines up with the fact that she was so gentle with him and patient with him... a majority of the rest of the clan was mad that cloudkit was a kittypet, but she seemed unbothered.
Yeah, maybe Brindleface just pulled a Bluestar and said that Whitestorm was the father to cover up the kittypet thing
@@spoongoon7742 that probably did happen, and it also covers up the issue of why the kits look almost nothing like any other single male cat in the clan. Besides whitestorm, (who I could totally see being the type of tom to help Brindleface out by letting her tell the clan that they are his kits even if they aren’t, like Thrushpelt but less involved) not to mention, in Bluestar’s Prophecy, it says that Brindleface and Whitestorm grew up together, (along with Tigerclaw and Frostfur) there isn’t any other single tom that would make sense to be their father due to their coloring
@@lumeanoastra1252 Evil is not genetic
@@lumeanoastra1252 i mean to be fair ashfur having to bury his mothers corpse and then being encouraged to take revenge of her death PROBABLY messed him up
@@lumeanoastra1252 its not
Every father in Warriors is just "my dad left to get milk" but worse.
"My dad left to get milk, but he still lives two rooms down in the same house and work the same job as me, and eventually I'll have to live in the same room as him, but he will refuse to acknowledge my existence, or at least my existence of being his kid. But even now, while I live literally two rooms down, he will refuse to visit me or my mom, and will refuse to acknowledge any of our existences."
@@lord__pasta yea thats worse
“My dad left to get milk unless, of course, I am the main character or anyone somewhat important. Then it’s relevant”
💀💀💀
They are all everybody and nobodys dad!
666'th like >:D
I really like that Brindleface’s design here. Cool ginger and grey cat!
@@Amanecer458 It's called a dilute tortoiseshell, and yes, I agree. I make all of my Warriors designs follow cat genetics, and I make Sandstorm a light amber tortoiseshell so that I can at least make Leafpool a cinnamon torbie, but that's also a good way of justifying it.
I wish the author’s/working partners took a much more honest approach when answering fan questions that could potentially retcon in something. Just a simple “I don’t know, it didn’t matter so we didn’t write it” would be so less damaging to the already twisted up lore and family trees.
Plus, I think there’s this really prevalent idea that storytellers NEED to have an answer for everything concerning their world, and that’s just not true or feasible.
What is canon is that Whitestorm is a good boy, 10/10 deputy, what a great guy. I’d hate to see him get retroactivity Yellowfang’d. -_-
I agree.
Yea…
Exactly! I have a bad habit of overanalising everything so I can answer every question in existence but honestly, someone would probably ask me one I never considered and making stuff up on a go is probably worse than saying "idk"
Whitestorms great!
Agreed! I want to be an author sometime in the future, and I’ll have to remember the Warriors team and JK Rowling whenever I’m asked a question that I don’t have an answer to.
Honestly the responses, “What do you think?” And “I don’t know” Solve so many problems and they’re probably going to be what I’ll use if I do manage to make something people are willing to ask questions about.
I think Darkstripe being the father works better in terms of Ashfur, Ashfur being evil. Not in terms of “oh, evil is genetic” because Darkstripe wasn’t pure evil, just kind of stupid and biased. He follows the lead of who he believes in, and who he believes in is evil.
But the idea that Darkstripe and Brindleface breaking up and Darkstripe abandoning his children after the adoption of Cloudkit could give Ashfur the possessiveness and fear of abandonment he’d need in order to justify things like trying to hurt Lionpaw in training. He thinks he was abandoned, again, and he begins to act irrationally and violently in anger to this perceived abandonment, and he snaps and attempts to kill Squirrelflight’s children, his rationalized reason for Squirrelflight “abandoning” him.
TLDR; if darkstripe left his kids, ashfur could have severe abandonment issues and cling onto every relationship. he’s desperate. something, an event, makes him snap and he tries to destroy what he thinks is the source of squirrelflight “abandoning” him: the three.
ashfur’s fire scene could have been so much better and made so much more sense
If the darkxBrindle thing took place, wouldn't they have broken up when the kits were less then a moon old tho? I kinda remember Brindle's kits being kinda young when everything went down
Omg yeah and if darkstripe left his kits bc Brindleface adopted Cloudkit it would make sense why Ashfur doesn't like kittypets!
I honestly believe that Darkstripe was more of “sperm donor” if you know what I mean, maybe ashfur was like that because he was simply missing a father figure.
@@avacadotherainwing8457 They would’ve, but given that some people with infants do that irl and these are cats anyway, that’s just somewhat upsetting but not impossible
WAIT THATS SO GOOD THO
In my mind Brindleface just really wanted kits and asked some random tom who doesn’t care about kits to father them
Same and for me that Tom would be dark stripe
Yep
Yeah, I supsect Runningwind cause he doesn't work well with apprentices (young cats)
In my mind, white storm and brindle face didn’t work out as kits and broke up, then white storm moved on to willow pelt. It sounds pretty reasonable to me. :3
darkstripe being ashfur and fernclouds dad is so funny to me i’m calling it the darkdad au and the entire thing is just “do u wanna interact with ur children?” “nah”
darkstripe: if i have children no i dont
@@iwakeupandboomimarat “yea the part where you feed sorrelkit a red candy”
He'd poison them-
I want more "So who is the father of your kits?" "you think I know???"
I mean why wouldn’t they know?
@@itzflame5523 slept around lol
@@pruneprince1976 i mean real cat litters can have multiple fathers so
@@iridiumSerpent exactly, why didn’t they just play into that real world cat behaviour? It makes things a lot easier to play with when it comes to how closely related the clan is getting and has already been. Honestly, breeding between the clans should be encouraged for the sake of diversity, so long as actual relationships aren’t a part of it for the sake of clan loyalty and such. Half-clan kittens should be welcomed.
Not to mention that Brindle and White were foster siblings. We have another foster sibling couple with Snowbush and Lilyheart too, and not many fans seem to have a problem with foster siblings getting together but I'd like to disagree bc it's as if implying that adoptive family is not considered "real" family.
Also snowbush and Lilyheart are cousins via Brightheart and Brackenfur being siblings
@@almaszericebean1401 i wish the writers actually made decisions that made sense and kept up with what the hell is happening lol incest with these cats is still weird because they have human thinking and mindsets
@@meulware well tbh at this point everyone in thunderclan is related
Reminds me of the people that ship Thor and Loki romantically. Why do some people have to be like that 🙃
@@justheretovibe9849 people ship Thor and Loki?!?!?
all of this makes "fire alone will save our clan" less about battle prowess and whatnot and more about how firestar, someone from outside thunderclan who welcomes in kittypets/rogues/other-clan refugees and also has friends and descendants who have/are shaking the status quo about half-clan relationships is pretty much the only reason thunderclan isnt as inbred as it could be
So basically Firestar saved tc from bad genetics.
Makes perfect sense to me. Because of him and his lack of prejudice, the clan was able to grow in numbers and strength again, and able to make relations and allies that would have been rejected in the past.
Well... now comes Moonpaw disproving this thing about Thunderclan not being inbred.
The erins should have mystery kit fathers more often, no one needs to know
Its probably to try and please the people who build the family trees and complain when there are gaps. I know my brain gets fussy when I see missing information 😂
Graystripe’s Vow also totally rewrote Ashfur’s character. He was presented as constantly angry and argumentative like he was innately a villain. It completely deviated from the more interesting concept that his choices made him into a villain vs. he was born one. I wish the books would stop rewriting existing characters and focus on new engaging content…
I too dislike that the books make characters born evil. Like Brokenkit and Tigerkit. StarClan's warning of them was horrible... like what about nurture? No one should be /born/ evil. It doesn't make any sense. Unless they're somehow reincarnations of evil but really those who're reincarnated should NOT remember things typically. For me reincarnation should allow for another chance at life and to potentially find redemption for things in a past life. Like the slate is wiped clean, memories are wiped clean through a purification ritual of some sort... instead of total obliteration of the soul/spirit because really energy never disappears it just transforms.... that's my belief system anyway and even if it wasn't it'd be interesting narrative that deviates from Dark vs Light mentallty and allow the gray scale of morality to exist...
**Potential Spoilers**
and if Light cannot exist without Dark then doesn't that make the cats of The Place of No Stars(The Dark Forest) just as important as those cats in StarClan? Plotholes galore.
as another comment mentioned, the concept of “dont ask dont tell” for queens’ mates should have stayed around. it would make sense for brindleface’s kits to have been fathered by a complete outsider rather then a clanmate, but even so i like to believe it was runningwind whom fathered them (biased because runningwind is my favorite background character, though lmao)
Id headcanon darkstripe as ash/ferns dad because it makes the most sense in my opinion. Darkstripe could easily have been with Brindleface either out of love or obligation(or hiding his love for Tigerstar) and then when she had kits he was like nope I cant do this anymore, ala Spiderleg. Or redemption arc style, maybe Darkstripe denied fathering them so that if he went with Tigerstar they wouldn’t be judged for being related to him like what happened to tawny/bramble. I think that could be a really cool dynamic to explore in his character either way
True! Only issue I have is while I don't think it's an strick law, we see parents rarely mentor thier kits, so it be a bit odd for Bluestar just to decide to give Fernpaw to Dark when other cats were around.
Runningwind to me seems the most interesting because it be a less lazy way to bring up Ashfur's fall as well as Ferncloud's discomfort with Darkstripe as her mentor
As Runningwind had been killed by Tigerstar before Brindle, Ferncloud having to be mentored by the cat who had been the closest to her parents killer definitely be horrifying
Ashfur being more willing to fight and aggression coming out more be a good contrast to Ferncloud with how they handled thier mothers passing, that being the last straw for Ash while Ferncloud still feeling a need to keep a level head to please a mentor she's scared of
Of course think just me wanting more Ferncloud dhdhdhd
@@painthedoll I was on the dark stripe side so far, but your argument is very compelling and now I can’t choose which narrative I like better. Both explain things well, but I think your scenario is just slightly better. I vote Runningwind!
@@featherlightfox1292 honestly both could have such interesting implications for the two's characters!
Obviously I have a soft spot for Ferncloud so I could imagine how hard it would be for her with either.
If Runningwind, she's nervous about being mentored by someone like Darkstripe who had been close to the one who ultimately killed her dad and later mother. Yet show how strong she is compared to Ashfur even more as she never let that change her heart. Even if she was in more danger then him. Plus we'd could get to explore a character left practically forgotten, how Runningwind viewed his kits and made before his death. We know he was close to his sister Mousefur so it wouldn't be hard to figure he'd care a lot about his kits. Ashfur I think would, as he got older, be all the worse parts of Runningwind. Why Ferncloud shown to be a good mix of her mother and father. Caring mother but a tougher fighter.
If Darkstripe, both would have that sense of betrayal with their father. Ferncloud feeling pressure under the mentorship of her father. I could also see the hurt learning he cared more about getting Tigerstar's Kin to safety rather then them who just lost their mother.
I don't think Darkstripe would ever had been a good father, nor a good mate. If he had been their father I could see Ferncloud getting upset and frustrated when she notices Ashfur's change.
It be interesting, but I think Runningwind could be a good chance to explore his character...plus it could give us Mousefur being 10/10 great-aunt when Ferncloud's kits are born. Her befriending Longtail would also be even sweeter cause he's technically Ferncloud's uncle as well on her mother's side
Longtail and Mousefur being the funky aunt and uncle would be so fun to me gtgfg
PLUS, Elderkit looks a lot like Darkstripe.
DARKSTRIPE AND TIGERCLAW ARE COUSINS
Runningwind would have been an okay option: He was mentioned to not be working well with apprentices, so why not also with kits? That could explain a lot. Brindleface was always a very present mother who really enjoyed taking care of her children. She didn't need a mate to help her. Meanwhile Runningwind probably didn't want to spend time with the kits. In a weird way that couple complements each other.
I suppose that Brindleface just ended up mating with Runningwind, Darkstripe or any other random cats just for kits and not out of love. She seemed like she really enjoyed being in the nursery.
It’s pretty reasonable for Whitestorm and Brindleface to be friends since Brindleface was mentored by his grandfather and her sister was mentored by Bluestar, his aunt, who he’s pretty close too.
It was also mentioned in Bluestar's Prophecy that Whitestorm, Brindleface, Tigerclaw and Frostfur had known eachother since they were kits so I just headcannon these two as close childhood friends
Exactly, plus he was her and Frostfurs foster sibling when Snowfur died
@@Julie-rz3dw Yep, that's kinda why I like the surrogate father idea for Whitestorm. Not actually Brindleface's mate, but he was just a good friend to her and looked after her. I love to think that her actual mate was maybe from a different clan (which I think would be a really cool idea? I love the idea of a background queen successfully having half clan kits and getting away with it with no one noticing. Especially such a sweet cat like brindleface 😂. Whitestorm is also the kind of friend who would definitely pretend to be dad too so she wouldn't get into trouble lolol), or I could see Darktail or Runningwind being the dad and Whitestorm wanted to be there for his friend.
This also works too because Willowpelt could have been in on the secret and fell for Whitestorm for being a surrogate dad so the kits would have a bit of a father figure 😂 or maybe they were together before and had an accident litter too soon hahaha
I never really thought much of the whole Whitestorm fathering Ashkit/fur, Fernkit/cloud, and the two kits who didn’t make it, who were retconned as being Tulipkit and Elderkit (I think those names are adorable btw) but now that you’ve really explained the whole situation I really do agree that it wouldn’t really make sense for his character as a whole because that’s just not something he would do. It’s just not the Whitestorm that we’ve come to know.
As for the Smokey and Daisy thing, I think Smokey did care about Daisy in his own way but I don’t really think he actually loved her. Like kind of a scenario where maybe at one point he thought he did (I don’t think their relationship before Daisy joined ThunderClan was ever explained in much detail) but in the end he could only see her as a friend rather than a mate like he saw Floss or Coriander. Though I did really like how he named his kits in the Novella Daisy’s Kin Little Daisy and Coriander after Daisy and his late mate Coriander.
I love your vids btw. Most of the Warrior Cats shorts are funny as heck and all of the I Spoils are just painfully accurate. 🤣💙
Bringing Smoky up again. I personally think he was supposed to represent real cats. Most male cats dont stick to one mate they just get a cat pregnant then go get another one pregnant. Ofc this isn't all but I've seen a lot of real life instances of this.
@@birdsbirdsandmorebirds6251 I agree with you, Smokey does seem like that kind of cat/character (not that it’s a bad thing). In a way it’s kind of like how Spiderleg was with Daisy. Like father wasn’t present in either the kits’ or the mate’s life (granted he never got another mate or anything). I do really like the point you bring up because it really makes sense. Also on the topic of Smokey representing real cats, I don’t think Smokey really cared that much when Floss’s kits were taken away did he? It’s been a while since I read the passage of Daisy’s decision to leave the barn in one of the field guides (I can’t remember which one it was). The reason I bring this point up is because for the most part male cats in real life don’t usually take much of an interest in their kittens’ lives.
Ashfur and ferncloud are absolutely the kits of Boulder, I take no criticism
Your profile pic tho-
xD it's amazing
I hadn't even considered it. Boulder already broke the warrior code by denying his leader's word of wanting to change his name, I can see him breaking the warrior code by being the sire of ThunderClan kits. Especially given around the time Ash and Fern were born, Boulder was following Brokenstar and he would see being with Brindleface as an opportunity for more kits for ShadowClan
I feel like the cats got WAY more anthropomorphized as the books go on.* In the start it was rare that toms cared about their kits just like cats in real life. Honestly I thought the books and especially the Fandom care too much about these cats being realistic. The Erins should've just let the background cats have emotions.
*ETA: Forgot to say that I think the change was good. Having the characters be more human-like allows for deeper connection to the reader. These are supposed to be fantasy books not educational.
Sounds logical!
Agreed, imo people worry too much about knowing every genetic connection/queens caring who they mate with, and with kits looking like said parents like real cat genetics. So long as the main characters make sense I'm ok
I've always joked that Greystripe invented the concept of fatherhood/family
Here's a thought: Willowpelt had kits with a rouge and Whitestorm took credit for them so she wouldn't get in trouble, and then felt too awkward to really parent them
That would make sense, considering how impossible it is for a white cat plus an almost white cat to produce two grays and a tortoiseshell. But I don't know much about genetics, so 👁️👅👁️
@@zvyxrii I think it actually might be possible! Gray / blue is a dilution of black fur, but shade isn't specified. And whitestorm isn't dominant white (blue eyes and deaf, think Snowkit) which leaves 100% white spotting. Which also means that white is "covering up" his base color - likely blue/gray because his dad is thistleclaw and his mother's sister is bluestar. As for sorreltail being a tortie, I think it's more of a nod to being related to redtail and spottedleaf than anything realistic. The Erin's aren't known for being genetically accurate, just look at firestars parents. He shouldn't be ginger lol. Anyway I love genetics and whitestorm don't mind me.
@@nightshademasquerade4703 irl cats take coat colours and patterns
directly from their parents so if mums a white cat and dad is a white cat the kittens are going to be white
Female cats will (irl) mate with multiple males when in heat and its not uncommon for litters to be fathered by several toms and have drastically different coats
The cfa has a pretty good run-down on this
I can't even imagine Whitestorm being anything but the noble cat that he was
the idea of evil being genetic is really upsettimg to ppl w abusive/bad parents lol.... ive never liked it as a trope or whatever
edit: HEY its okay if your experience as an abuse victim is different fromt his and it doesnt bother you! i didnt mean to generalize, i was speaking from my experience as a survivor. thank you please dont argue in the rwplies lol
It’s related so heavily to eugenics and yet everyone is okay with it 😃
SAY that to the gacha kids who make those since they normalize it
Not everyone with abusive parents feels that way. Dont generalize.
Thank you
@@someoneimsure There are people who have (including I) and that’s who they’re referring to specifically. Accusing of generalization can easily be interpreted as not seeing from other people’s perspectives. But you do you.
Imagine that the father of Frostfur's kits is a kittypet. Bluestar was her mentor, which is why she would insist that queen's don't need to explain the father if they don't want to when in every other series or super edition this doesn't happen,
I like the idea of Brindleface having a Kittypet mate, and Cloudkit reminded her of her mate, so she had all the more reason to take him in :)
Imagine if her "mate" who was allegedly a kittypet was Oliver, Cloudtail's father. Who was also a kittypet.
@@1ceb3rg__ imagine when cloudtail dies, princess tells him his father is Oliver, the white fluffy kitty pet.
then brindleface tells cloudtail about Oliver being his sorta father.
then cloudtail realizes that he was around the same age as ferncloud and ashfur.
cloudtail then thinks that Oliver had two mates and may have cheated on one
This is just more proof that there needs to be a fandom bible and that would be the job of the fandom consultant.
So there needs to be a fandom consultant.
More like consultants* because having only one person directing the whole thing is gonna be super overwhelming
The entire warrior cats family tree is a circle
My headcanon is that whitestorm is graystripe’s father, because willowpelt is whitestorm’s mate and is also graystripe’s mother. Instead of having graystripe’s parents be siblings, that’s what I choose to believe anyway.
You're her Mate.
"Yes"
And these are her kits
"Yes"
So, logically, this must be.. YOUR DAUGHTER
"I dont follow"
I don't think everyone's family tree needs to be completely filled out for it to be a satisfying or "complete" story
After Snowfur died Whitestorm was taken in by Robinwing. Brindleface's mother!
Whitestorm and Brindleface are foster siblings
(This was stated in Bluestar's prophecy)
@mrdoe97 I know its possible
I'm just saying its weird.
@mrdoe97 Yeah and that’s weird considering adoptive relationships can be just as close as the authentic one.
Perhaps it would make sense for a cat outside the clan to be Brindlefaces mate/the kits father, and that Whitestorm finds out and acts distant due to it...
And could also be one of the driving forces to why Brindleface accepted to care for Cloudkit.
But that would still make him out to be a retcon because then he knowingly sends those kits to battle dogs.
Personally I think Redtail is the father. He was Sandstorm’s father, and his death would line up with a cat’s pregnancy length. Even if it is a bit longer, it could be affected by Brindleface’s grief, which could have been a factor of two of the kits dying.
The part I don’t like about this is that then Ashfur is 100% Squirrelflight’s uncle
Plus, and IK warriors doesn’t give 2 damns about real world genetics, as a male tortoiseshell cat, something that is usually a genetic impossibility or something that can lead to issues like infertility, if the kits were Redtail’s, then they could also suffer from genetic issues that could have killed them, which also supports that Redtail could be the father.
@@ShadowSailor Redtails novella is just kinda a mess all around, though
Which makes Ashfur x Squirrelflight all the more creepy...
that would make ashfur having a crush on squirrelflight WORSE
Soooo, it`s a headcanon-sharing time. I know nobody asked for it but still
I think the idea of Stonefur being the father of Ashfur and Fernstraw is kinda okay. Consider this:
Firstly, both Ashfur and Fernstraw are gray and in cats` genetics it requires both parents to be gray.
Secondly, Stonefur is Appledusk`s descendent and that would mean that he would also suffer from Mapleshade`s curse and so would do his kits
And here we go - Ashfur and his "loved too much"-issue and Fernstraw losing her 3 kittens (as she was alive) just the way Mapleshade did
Also, Stonefur and his "kittens" died in very gruesome ways or suffered through their lives
I mean, Stonefur/Blackfoot is cool, Brindleface/Redtail/Runningwid is cool, but this theory is okay-ish
Fernstraw😭
@Carbon
OP might be Ukrainian
Fernstraw?
Cat genetics are not important in warriors,
In my headcanon, Brindleface was mates with Redtail but he was infertile so they couldnt have babies even though they really wanted to. They adopted an orphaned rogue kit who they named Sandkit but really wanted more babies. So Whitestorm offers to be a donor and that's what happens.
That's a good headcanon
I like the idea of the old 'mothers don't have to tell anyone unless they want to' rule being there, but I think that at least the authors should have it mapped out. Like 'Brindleface and Smugde are the parents of Ash and Fern' written down somewhere, but that's never revealed to the audience since those are both background characters who Firestar (our narrative character) doesn't really spend much time with by the point that it's relevant. Family ties in the series aren't always super important, even to main characters, whereas some of them it's very important to. I think the Three is when familial ties became a bigger focus, and the old 'you don't have to tell' rule went out of the window. And, well... If they had stuck to the old rule and left it more ambiguous, we wouldn't have the issue now with Brindle and her siblings. We would have no idea and things would be less weird.
Darkstripe being the father actually makes a lot of sense from Moon's perspective
In Canon ashfur and ferncloud were created in unicelular division.
Good for them
You could say it was a Hollyflower and Blizzardwing relationship, an accident, meaning Whitestorm didn’t want to acknowledge his second children when he was already mates with Willowpelt.
Random thing I thought about but for the love of god, *WHITESTORM ISNT FERNCLOUDS AND ASHFURS FATHER*
Not gonna lie, I thought Moon was gonna talk about the Whitestorm problem from the Leopardstar’s Honor allegiances lmao