Subfloors - Best Practice - Real ReBuild
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- Опубликовано: 9 мар 2020
- I’ve been building for 25 years and I’ve learned a thing or two about solid floors. Here’s my thoughts on decking the second floor at my house.
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When I glued and laid 4x8 subfloors, call me anal, but I found out if you slam the sheets down a lot of the glue would be blown out, so I would lay them down gently and as close to the correct position as possible, But that was with the older subfloor adhesives, don't know how the polyurethane glue reacts to plywood being slammed down.
Spews out like stepping on a ketchup packet.
Let's see This Old House-style coverage of this build (and every build that follows). Let's see The Build Show actually live up to its name! If that means 40 minute episodes, so be it! I'll watch 'em! Less yack yack, more wack wack!
yes please
Wack wack? That's a different Channel. This is the Build Show, not Debbie does the Build Show.
@@hahnsolo9202 Who's Debbie?
This is a building science show. Meaning he talks about how to do it right and best.
i realize it is pretty randomly asking but do anybody know of a good website to stream new tv shows online ?
Sound recording set to Automatic Level Control "adjusted" the recording level when the nailgun was firing pushing Matt's voice into the deep dark background.
This is called ducking, and probably the result of a poor compressor or compressor type plug-in.
Grear vid. I have used advantech 1-1/8 th floor sheathing for a while and heres my take: i have numerous squeaks if using nails. The advantech foam glue has zero body (too thin) and less working time. So i switched to pl polyurethane from loctite. I now use simpson strong tie number 10, 3 inch collated screws every 6 inches. I NOW have zero squeaks, zero rusted floor nails, and the glue covers the entire joist flange. I make it a point to go below the floor and look up; if i cant see glue oozing everywhere, then there was NOT enough glue used. In the end, the glue will fail, the screws wont. Advantech subfloor is awesome and i will have great success with my preferred method. 😊
Thanks for the recommendation!
Would that glue be better than PL 400 subfloor adhesive if using plywood or commodity OSB? Or no point?
Yes. Trust me
@@MrTooTechnical I will. Seems the way to go! Advantech is unavail here, so doing 3/4" ply over 16"OC I-Joists.. then 1.5" concrete topping. Would simpson WSV #9 2" screws be good on that?
2 inch Simpson screws you mention are great. Just remember, after the floor is installed, if you go underneath and look up and don’t see pl premium oozing out, you didn’t put enough glue. Put lots of glue. And put the screws every 6 inches at least. Then your floor should be squeak free for a long time.
I installed about 75 sheets of 1 1/8” advantech over i joist on my ICF house in Lubbock. Loved every bit of it. Will never use 3/4 subfloor again!
I'd like to see someone do ICF walls and steel-reinforced concrete formwork for the floors and roof. Also, slab/pier hybrid for an exta measure of overkill.
that nail gun is messing with your Mic.....your voice drops out.....
great video otherwise!!
Automatic gain control.... it's a beautiful thing!
It’s fairly standard for his videos
@@jameslastname9171 doesn't make it right or professional
your guys should be using a sledgehammer with a 2x4 to push the 4x8 board tight against the the other one after the lay it down. i thought everyone did this
Matt, I so enjoy your videos. I am a school construction inspector our here in California and don’t see much residential, but I love your deep insights into what makes a QUALITY build. Thanks!
I'm in San Diego, getting ready to build my own house & without doubt will be using the 11/8 th flooring. I am going to be implementing all your tricks & techniques you have taught me over the last few years. And I am going for a passive home as well, much thanks Matt!
3 years later... How did it go? Did you build?
I did and it really was worth it. And considering these Marxist are Hell bent on making energy unaffordable it would be foolish not to take advantage of all these advanced materials & building techniques.@@boeing757pilot
I’m cringing watching that guy smack that plywood groove with a sledgehammer. Someone should give him a beater block.
Or at least a deadblow\soft face sledge hammer.
My OCD also.
Michael VanGundy
Please stop hitting my $52 per sheet plywood with that 16 pound sledge.
Lol
What cracks me up is he does it while standing on it.
Relax. He's tapping it. A block spreads the blow making it harder to work one edge at a time. As long as your not really whacking it this is fine. And you stand on the sheet so it doesn't bounce back out of groove of the other sheet. If you'd ever run plywood in your life, you'd know that.
Loved this video. Nice to see the work taking place.
Last year I overlayed a old trailer floor on our “winter” home with Advantec ! Used the 1 1/8 on old trailer flooring so there was no use to glue it because it was worthless material to begin with . Screwed it all down TIGHT . This year there were a couple butt joints that were barking when you stepped on them . Backed off the screws on both sheets , stuck a crowbar in enough to pump liquid nails in and screwed it tight again ! No more barking . When I built my home in Upstate NY my floor joists were 2x12 Doug fir and liquid nails and 3/4 T&G plywood and nails . Been 30 years - no squeaks !
Good ole 2x10-12 will always be superior IMHO. I don't think these new "engineered" houses will last
Two layers of 5/8" Advantech. First layer transverse to the joists & second layer longitudinal, glued & screwed.
Better than reinforced concrete.
Probably not a very smart question, but you glue and screw each layer then? How long are the screws?
Impressive attention to detail for a builder. Great video. Thanks.
Great advice Matt, as builders we really need to think long term especially when it comes to warranty issues. Keep the great videos coming!
I used 3/4 Advantech over 1/2 original plywood subfloor to replace 3/4 inch particle board that had carpet on it. We then had wood flooring installed over the Advanrech. Made for a solid floor. I used 155 sheets.
It took two men six weeks to remove the carpet, tile flooring, particle board and prep the remaining original 1/2 plywood subfloor. It took the same two men six days to install the Advantech subflooring. Because it is flat and straight, it goes down quickly. Saves money on labor. It us a great product.
Solid, quiet floors ... just yesterday I saw a video about the palace of a Japanese ruler that had floors carefully designed to squeak ... so that potential assassins could not sneak up on him in his home!
That's the Emperor's Palace in Kyoto. It's called the Nightingale floor. It sounds like it's singing when you walk on it.
@@krumafreak8920 Are there tours given there?
@@Rhaspun Yeah. It's like 20 bucks. 100% worth it. Very cool.
Has to do with the nails used and the position.
@@cliff7634 Please explain.
In North Eastern Pennsylvania here. I am using 11 7/8" I-joists @ 16" o.c. using 3/4" Advantec. We are using caulk tube subfloor glue (polyeurathane based). and shooting a 2 3/8" ring shank nail.
I love the idea of I-joists to fit your A/C sends and returns between ceiling and floor. I had a project where I suggested to my builder they go that way, but the A/C contractor assured us 2x6 would be fine. He was wrong. I should have gone with my gut and overridden the A/C guy. It would have pissed him off, but I got pissed off instead. Lesson learned.
Long Island NY Builder here, in 2012 I was introduced to Warmboard now wherever financially possible we recommend. They have a 1-1/8” product for the subfloor with great tech support & local reps.
Do it right the 1st time, Gently, lay down the board, It only takes a few seconds more!!! Slamming them, I don't allow. Take pride in your job!!! Signing off, from Indianapolis, Indiana....GO COLTS❤
When I was working construction fulltime in upstate NY (1999-2008) we were running the TJI's with 23/32 advantech, glued down with PL (I think it was OSI or something close) and fastened with nails. The polyurethane is huge with stopping noise. We'd always use a maul to set the sheet though. Usually a 4 foot 2x4 scrap or whatever was on the bottom of a delivery skid would help set the sheet in the grove without beating up the edge. Then tap the end to finish it up. Worked real slick.
I love your video's been a fan for two years and have learned a lot. Thanks a ton.
I love advantech flooring...I used it throughout my 1900 remodel here in Hiram, OH with 2x Joists.....I was not aware of the glue however so I have a few squeaks...live and learn. Thanks for the pro tips! 👊👍
I learn so much here Matt, thanks.
The mic is using auto-gain control (AGC) which reacts to the loud transient sounds of the nail gun, causing his voice level to dip down.
Hmm intriguing
thanks for sharing the knowledge Matt!
I'm going to make my builder sit down and watch all your videos!
I used the 1 1/8 advantech in my subfloor on gator open web joists. I also used the foam from advantech. I am a owner/builder and doing the entire home myself. Im located in texas if you would ever want to come see it. ~4500sq/ft of advantech. I believe it was about 84 sheets +/-
84 sheets at 32 sqft/sheet is 2688 sqft, not 4500. Are you including the basement?
Hi, I will be starting in a similar project soon and I was also thinking of Advantech 1 1/8 and open web joists with a 22' span. Which span did you use on your project? And how do you like the result?
Other alternative I was thinking of: is steel C joists and USG Structrocrete panels, more solid, more fire proof but also almost 3 times more expensive...
We used it, but ran regular “Liquid Nail” type adhesive (in 2012). Here’s the great thing about the 1 1/8 Advantech: still no squeak issues whatsoever. I’d do it again, and would love to use the new glue.
I did a mold inspection in Rockport, TX after Hurricane Harvey. The house had this same subfloor and thickness. Even with all of the staples in it and standing water, there was very little water penetration. No warping at the seams. Pricey sure, but in a half to one million dollar home, well worth it.
Did 1 1/8 t&g plywood screwed and glued to TJI, worked fantastic, dryer climate here in CA though
Love your videos matt keep up the great job
This video was timely! I was about to go search through your videos to find the product you use for your subfloors. I’d remembered you talking about all the advantages but couldn’t remember the exact product name.
Excellent informative video.
looking good!
Haven't used 2x material for joists in years. Typically use floor trusses, the structure is more important than the sheeting. On floor trusses, I use the 3/4" Advantech. If its a particularly complex frame we spray the Advantech with Thompson's water seal to prevent any joints from swelling. Some of our frames take 2 months and despite what Huber says you are going to get some degree of swelling if it rains a bunch. In my opinion as well the squeaks 90% of the time come from nails barely catching the joist below. The floor trusses help take out some of that error with a wider bearing surface.
I'm loving this comparison Matt. You have done a great job showing the details you use for a heavily reinforced squeak proof floor.
This tied in very well with your video about commodity vs quality osb.
In curious what your stance is regarding using advantech for structural sheathing in extreme weather environments. Racking strength is critical in several of my build zones due to lake effect and inversions causing sustained winds over 90mph.
Advanced Tech is good stuff! Had a really wet year in Central Florida, Houses are holding up good we're building with the 3/4" AT.
This is the stuff we want to know! Thanks!
I built a DELTEC Home. they ship 5/8" plywood that's precut to the shape of the floor. Once the walls are up they require a second layer of 5/8' plywood in a running bond over the first layer. Both layers are bonded with PL400. Because the trusses run in a radial pattern, the edges of the second layer don't frequently land on a truss so I screwed in those areas. The trusses start at 24" on center but are tight at the center. It makes for an incredibly stiff floor. Our kitchen is near the center so the trusses are extremely close. It makes for difficulty running the drain lines for the sinks in the pantry, kitchen and laundry. I'm sure my plumber wasn't happy :). By the way, the quality of the plywood provided by DELTEC is better than I've ever seen for a CDX. They used the same 5/8" on the walls for sheathing. I ordered 1" of foam over the sheathing and sprayfoamed the walls. You mentioned on a previous video that you use acoustic sealant on both sides of the foam gasket. While I used a gasket, we're on a full basement and the rim joist is foamed tight to the top of the ICF foundation. It's pretty tight.
adubbelde1 I wanna build a Deltec home someday, I love their aesthetic and philosophy
@@JohnVance We particularly love the aesthetics of our great room. It's about half of a 1500. it's got windows in every panel but one, the one that is our entertainment wall. We Live in the mountains and our views encompass, Mt Coolidge in Custer State Park, The Cathedral Spires, also in the park and Harney Peak (now known as Black Elk Peak). If there's a downside, the bedroom, though large is difficult to arrange, as is our office. We have a great laundry room, Pantry and Walk in closet.
Great videos Matt Thanks. When I was framing 20 years ago I was told by an engineer that if you glue the tongue and grove the floor is 30% stiffer. What are your thoughts on that? Thanks
himatt good luck on your new house keep up good work
Hi Matt. Thanks for your vids. Learning a lot from you sitting in South Africa (where we actually build mainly with masonry...). Quick question on acoustics: Is there any other measures you take to increase acoustic quality against foot traffic on 2nd storey, apart from the Advantech/ polyutherane glue? Thanks again
I really enjoy your videos. As a german, our way of building is totally different tho. At least nowadays. And I might be going out on a limp right now but I feel in many cases a much more solid way.
New age MGO subflooring is also a really good option, its more fire resistant, and like cement offers a high degree of noise reduction between floors. Its also semi flexible and strong.
Hey Matt! Love your channel! I just bought an older home on acreage. Unlike my previous home, the new house is on a conventional foundation. I have gun safes that are quite heavy. How do determine how much weight is safe on the foundation? I currently have them in an enclosed garage which of course is on a slab. Maybe a video on how to reinforce my new home's foundation? Thanks in advance!
5:30 Glue is always stronger than screws or nails if it is the right glue. For wood to wood connections that is.
Matt, great video. As your laying a second floor in this video, did you consider an acoustic product like a mass loaded vinyl to keep noise transmission down?
I have used 22mm chipboard with polyurethane glue with no nails or screws without squeaks before on either I joists or metal Web joists. It's a Caberdeck moisture resistant chipboard with a peel and stick cover. Important to let the glue spill out over the joints so that it forms a waterproof seal until the roof is covered over. After all wet trades and painting is done you take the peel and stick off and use a floor scraper on the excess glue. Works a treat.
We use 3/4 advantech on our custom built houses but we do everything on 2x12 on 16 on Center 1 1/8 is special order and it's really expensive
If I where to build a house, I would use 2x6 studs and 1/2 ply with 2 inch foam and 1 1/8 plywood for floors with I joists
I've put in a lot of flooring over the years. One flooring group did this as shown in the video. Another flooring group augmented the nailing pattern with something like 9 screws per sheet. The flooring adhesive is heavy duty stuff and the nails keep it in place and flat down, so are the screws an OCD thing or do they make a good process better? Do some building codes require screws? Do screws reduce floor creaking noise?
I had to strip the kitchen floor out of my house remodel, seal the joists (odor problem) and then start over with a new sub floor. I did 3/4" exterior grade plywood, glued and screwed to the joists, with 2x4s screwed underneath where the edges butt together. Solid and not a squeak or shimmer in about five years since I did that. Probably over engineered but that's how I roll. :) I've got PEX tubing under the floor for radiant heat so I didn't want so thick of a floor as what you're building there.
On one section of the floor I've got a concrete cistern that comes up 4" under the joists so we insulated there with four layers of "pink board" insulation, two below the joists, two cut to fit between the joists. PEX laid between the joists in the open space on top. I'll let you know how that goes over the long haul.
Would you ever consider using or is there a benefit/drawback to using a Lignoloc nailer with this flooring? Or have you considered starting to incorporate the Lignoloc system in your builds? I remember you introducing me to them in your Swiss video series. Thanks.
How are you running mechanicals and wiring through the ceiling on the 1st floor / 2nd floor subfloor with these I-joists?
Love the 1 1/8" decking. Thoughts on shanked nails vs screws.
We do both full nail off and screw the edges in addition
Just want to say hi from Denmark :)
Used Advantech 1-1/8” & 3/4” since it’s availability (thanks to Matt). Glue and ring shanks are a must but swelling in Houston is still a problem. Standard practice in the budget now to grind the seams. Austin is more forgiving? Great video.
Decking was 1x4- 1x6 nailed down on joists with 6p nails cement coated . 45 degree to centerline .Glue was optional. Squeaks? Wetness ? It dried out. Solid wood quarter sawn , air or kiln dried is hard to beat.
Good day Mr. Risinger got a question for you, what vendor are you using for your I-Joist? I'm in Texas, Abilene area, and am working on a 1918 house remodel, and expansion. Having trouble finding anyone in the area that carry or can order them.
Enjoy the videos love seeing the new construction tech and has given me a lot of ideas on best way to do the renovations to a better standard.
6:50 Most of what I see recommended is the floor being the 1-1/8 inch. It gives a really good solid floor and can accept title much easier with less risk.
Hey Matt! Those I joists are hanging off a beam that runs down the center of the house. About 5 feet from the edge of the home there is a jog and you are using something else to support those I joists it looks like there are cut outs so you can run mechanicals through it. What is this?
I used a flooring foam adhesive years ago and I didn’t realize what the heck it was so I stopped. I thought it was supposed to be like regular foam, because I take the can from stash that had cans of from. When I saw it deflated, it just threw me off. However, I’m looking forward to using it in the future. I know regular construction adhesive can sometimes pill away from LVL’s! I guess some LVL’s have a wax coating on them, and something PL just will not stick.
Do traditional hardwood flooring cleats grab well into that high-spec OSB?
I live in a hundred year old farm house. The floor in the kitchen bounces pretty good. Subfloors are t&g floors are hardwood maple and no Squeeks.
Cool joists design, but what about the nails that are placed to hold down the sheets? Those gets rusty after the years and the squeaky floor begins. For me the deck screws that have doble pattern threads and coated are lifetime and prevents that issue.
What are your thoughts about the nails?
Matt it looks like the glue goes on as a foam and then shrinks down so thin as to not be enough. Is there really adhesion enough not to fail? With other glues, the amount you see is the amount that remains. How tested is this foam glue over time? It just looks to me like not enough material is there.
This stuff is very, very strong, I'm not sure if he's actually done a Build Show demo to illustrate it, but there is definitely enough glue material. This is a specialty glue (polyurethane based) that bonds with the special premium glues (also poly) used in the Advantech OSB from Huber while still adhering to the raw wood of plywood or 2xwhatevers. The foaming is just a part of the chemical magic that allows it to work. I know I have seen him show some of the demos from Huber themselves and this video shows the same amount of glue they demonstrate and teach.
The heavy flooring is the best way to go! Just getting the customer to understand the expense is the hard part!
It looks so easy for these guys: just drop the sheet of OSB and stomp-push it into place. My experience has been nothing like that because I'm doing a renovation and my joists aren't nearly as flat as the I-joists in this video. Also some of my Advantech 3/4 sheets are slightly bowed, so encouragement has been required to make the tongue go into a groove. Of course once they've been screwed down, the sheets are flat and quiet exactly as promised by Huber. 1 1/8" sheets are unicorns out here in UT. I looked all over and found only 3/4 sheets.
Are you using two cameras in one hand? How did you record this? What app on cellphone?
I’m building a timber frame house, but I want wood finish looking up from first floor to second floor how would I then use this product
You would lay down stain-grade wood over the entire floor of joists first, then cover it with the subfloor. Alternatively, you can come back later and cut wood to fit between the joists, but its a lot more work.
All over the South East U.S. advantech is a super popular subfloor choice. But our joists in houses here in WV to North Carolina are most commonly plain lumber joists or floor trusses. I have previously built with the lvl joists and I think they are probably the straightest joist material you can buy though. Needs to become a more popular floor option
I have found you advise is very good to follow!
Microphone discipline! Otherwise great as usual. I have used advantech back in 2003. We had over 35" of rain during the build and I had NO issues where houses around me had to pull up drenched plywood.
In CT and higher end homes our standard is I-JOISTS and 3/4 Advantech
I know our builder is using advantech and engineer joists as shown, not sure they are glued but I think they are 3/4. Could be wrong. I wonder what you’d say about their build practices.
Would love to see a video where you do an in-depth comparison including cost for 2 x 4 trusses, LVL, two by dimensional lumber, and I-joists
I love Advantech. It is definitely the king of subfloor materials. I haven't heard of anyone using 1-1/8" thick though. I'm used to 3/4". I don't know that the cost difference is worth it because the 3/4" is very solid and any bounce is going to come from the span and spacing of your floor joists rather than the subfloor. I like the I-Joist floors or a floor truss over conventional 2x10's because of the warping, twisting, crowning, etc of conventional lumber not to mention it's inconsistent depth. One board might be 9-1/4" and the next one might be 9-3/4" and that just leads to a lot of planing to get everything level or otherwise you will end up with uneven floors that squeak.
Can you use the glue underneath bottom plate in concrete foundation house?
No, the glue is intended for wood on wood bonding. For the sill plates typically a sill sealer is used (Polyethene - Blue rolls of plastic foam). However you can use EPDM still gaskets from www.conservationtechnology.com/) and caulk it on both sides for an air tight seal. Also helps if you apply a concrete sealer to the top of the foundation before laying down the sill plates.
How much does a sheet of that weigh? They were making it look light. :)
How do you think 1 1/8" compares to a double layer of 3/4" over 24" OC? Same thickness as a 2x stud.
Double layer of 3/4" will be 2.37 times as stiff as a single 1.125" OSB - stiffness goes by cube of the thickness in this case. Caveat - IF those layers are well bonded and fastened.
Why not glue joint on the floor where the boards meet also?
Great choice of floor. I like that it is thick, so you don't get a floor that sounds like a drum. But some comments. When you glue, no need for nails och screws. But you need them to to hold before they dry. So that gives, you only need nails, not screws.
John Strand you need fasteners for diaphragm shear values.
You need compression on the audio during post-prod. Would help the levels due to the nail gun tremendously :)
Looks good Matt. Quick question, I have 3/4" subfloor, should I put 1/2" underlayment before finish floor? Planning on wood floor.
Not necessary. Signed, a carpenter from Pittsburgh
If you are putting in hardwood, then no. 3/4" wood is usually plenty strong, and back in the day didnt even need a subfloor.
If you are using thinner hardwood or engineered, and you have a lot of dips in the old floor, it wouldnt hurt to add some 1/2".
@@bigpjohnson I was thinking of using plywood strips instead of hardwood flooring, save a few dollars, and going thick enough to be level with tile in bath and kitchen. Thanks for reply.
1-1/8 advantech is the way to go only use that on my homes great product!
I'll stay with 1 1/8'' fir t&g plywood. Advantech is OSB.
He can’t stop production to show RUclips how the installation works.. give the man a break. Great Video!
Any recommendations for soundproofing your upper level floors?
How do you stop the tongue and groove from squeeking. My second floor is driving me crazy and I've already screwed my second floor down at the joists
I mostly do 5/8 on 5/8 on 3/4 cdx with no overlapping edges with a lot of glue in between layers and nail and screwed down I have not had one call back in 20+ years of setting tile on this method but you need to use Grannyrapid tile glue
Be careful using screws on a subfloor installation. I’ve been called out by an inspector on substituting screws for nails in a floor diaphragm. Fortunately I did my research and used a rated screw so I had no problems (Simpson wsv 2.5”). The Simpson screw is as far as I know the only rated screw on the market that’s collated.
Just did the same truss and flooring in Nashville Tn. 2 months ago
As someone from another country, and sensing that he is aiming for a strong house, I am wondering why Matt is not building with concrete, or concrete based materials like Durisol/Nexcem or Faswall. I am ignoring cost of course, but then, didn't this project cost a lot of money because it had a house on the lot?
If you use 16 inch joist @ 16 on center you can pour a 2 1/2 over radiant. Did it on a second floor project in Maine. We put bridging down center of joist though.
Matt Risinger
Have you ever tried their 7/8" for 1st layer then used 7/8" on top of that run the opposite way ?
On your first row do you cut the tongue off or do you leave it on?
That dual camera mode on your phone is pretty cool and convenient, ain't it? Problem with high end phones, though, is that they actively adjust the microphone audio based on the amount of noise around you...🙄
Thoughts on glueing at the expansion gaps on the T&G sub floor?
Yes, I was curious as to how tightly the panels were being butted together. If they are butted tightly or glued, you've got no room for expansion, but perhaps the strength of the glue and the thickness of the panel means that this isn't an issue.
@@tlangdon12 we use Weyerhauser Edge Gold and in their documentation they say to have a gap along the T&G edges for expansion but I've heard that adding some glue can help with pops. Trying to see if anyone else can weigh in on this.
I only use 1-1/8" t&g fir. best by test. holds wood floor fasteners better than chipped wood products
What width do you use?
@@JamesG1126 4x8' sheets (1 1/8" fir plywood). thanks
Is there an lvl band on that subfloor or is it I-joists all around?
Really cool video. But when we will we get an update on the 1970is home that you're remodeling?