The PROBLEM With The Batman Family
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- Опубликовано: 7 апр 2024
- The Batfamily has been one of the most important aspects of the Batman mythos from DC Comics, comprising characters like Nightwing, Tim Drake as Robin, Damian Wayne, Red Hood, Batgirl, Alfred, and many others. The overall issue stems from the vastly increasing size of the family roster, as seen with the inclusion of Harley Quinn. Another dilemma lies with the lack of proper adaptations of the family, as they are only seen in the DCAU/Batman: The Animated Series, Batman: Arkham Knight, Gotham Knights, Young Justice, and Titans. James Gunn's DCU with The Brave and The Bold promises to showcase and shed light on the Batfamily, as they have been underutilized in media for a long time. Many characters, like Cassandra Cain or Stephanie Brown as Batgirl, get overlooked due to underexposure.
#batman #dccomics #dcu #jamesgunn #batmanarkhamknight #gothamknights #nightwing #redhood #batgirl #youngjustice #batmanarkham #harleyquinn 
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Harley has no business being part of the Batfam 💀 I don't mind her wanting to become a better person, but let her be a hero in her own crazy anti-hero way. I'm glad the Harley Quinn show stopped having her part of the Batfam at the end of S4
FRFR
I couldn’t watch that show any more after season 2. It just makes me wish there was a Batman show with that sense of humor.
She isn't apart of the batfam, she's just in the teaser image for batman comics
Don’t you see? It’s an absolute stroke of genius, turning a psychopath, who danced through the night setting the world alight alongside the Joker, into Gotham's very own sweetheart. What a masterful display of narrative gymnastics, leaping from a character drenched in the blood of the innocent to a shimmering beacon of virtue. We're practically at the edge of our seats, wondering, "Will she save a kitten next, or help an old lady cross the street?"
And let's not forget the delightful way her past transgressions, those whimsical killing sprees, are now just adorable oopsies in her quirky journey. It's not every day you see such a bold disregard for character consistency, transforming classic villainy into the depth of a kiddie pool. How avant-garde, DC.
They should have spun her off more in the way they did Azeal. Azeal wanted to be better than he was during AzBat's that laid him low, but Harley just went LOL so random and never addressed her core issue over a long form arc.
I know some powers that be want her to cleave herself off from the joker... But aside from a hate boner she's never addressed her part in joining him, or what she did with him. It's like she washed her hands of it all and moved on, leaving behind the feelings of guilt and shame... Because apparently women in media aren't supposed to feel that, but in Harley we have a woman with a Psyc PhD who is uniquely qualified to assess her state of mind that she is likely afraid to look into for fear of what she might find.
The only time she was compelling was when she tried to stop Jokers Daughter and Punchline from making the same mistakes she did... and in Injustice where the heroes lowered themselves, and met Harley trying to get on the rise. Harley's mainstream problem is that she has a long way to go to repent and balance her ledger... But the powers that be won't even let her admit she needs to do just that.
Biggest problem with the bat family? There's way too many of them yet you omit often the best member...
Alfred.
Agreed. It’s so swollen and yet Alfred is the slept on guy.
I have some bad news for you.
@@someoneelse1441 maybe that is proving their point ? LMAO I just pretend that hes still there when I read T -T
The same Alfred that had his own live action tv series?
Young justice treated Cassandra Cain better than what the fuck that bird of prey did to her character their tv show are better than their movies
Young Justice is the best show since Justice League unlimited. The episode about Rocket’s son with special needs had me in tears.
Birds of Prey movie's Cassandra Cain is just a poor man's Russel from Deadpool 2.
@@derekpayneszubliminals7723They not only screwed up Cassandra, they also screwed up Roman Sionis.
@@thewatchman13 That too.
@@derekpayneszubliminals7723 Margot Robbie said that they green lit the r-rated birds of prey after deadpool was a success, they probably just wanted to replicate the success but fell flat on the ass.
how is batman a grim, loner hero but then got the biggest and most lit squad ever 💀
He needs that 8 hour of sleep
And because authors keep throwing new characters to leave their mark.
Because that loner hero shit is old in the main story line, u stuck in the past
Funnily enough he isn't a loner hero. There are like three stories set (lasting a total of 5 years) before Dick joined in. And Babs arrived 3 years after that.
He was a loner at first and then became a Family Guy over the years.
James Gunn saying “this is Batman’s actual son” is so troubling though. It implies he doesn’t view the other bat-kids (or at bare minimum - the other Robins) as Bruce’s kids. When for all intents and purposes - they are. That’s the whole dynamic…
I think that's just poor wording. He probably meant "actual" as in "biological"
I like Scott Snyder, but Jesus Christ, is his focus on Damian as real son gets under my skin.
@@mikhaelgribkov4117 Snyder's Batman was the one who punched out Dick's tooth during the Court of Owls soryline?
@@pepita2437 Yeah.
I don't really like that Batman. ;P
That’s why I love the Bat Family Adventures webtoon comic, because it gives the batfamily more depth to the Batfam, and not just Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Barbara, Jason, Tim, and Damian, but Cassandra, Stephanie, Duke, Kate, Helena, and Luke and get us to care about them in that webcomic than the actual comics itself.
Wayne Family Adventures, and yeah it's so good
💕💕
Same
Unfortuantly this webcomics was ruined once they decide to make Tim/Bernard official.
@@MrSafior How is it wrong to follow the canon lmao
Its not an M enterprises video if we dont get a montage of dc fucking up nightwing
😂
He's such a damsel in those movies lol
Could easily be on the 3rd or 4th Nightwing movie too.
He's doing well rn in comics and will probably get a movie in the new DCU movies
💀
In the Arkhamverse Nightwing lost his girl to Eminem, lost to Harley, got captured by penguin, got captured by penguin again, had story content cut from him in city, and probably origins. They just keep dicking him down Jesus like why.
He got done so dirty 🤦♂️
Nightwing's only role in this stuff is to get murked to make Batman look good
Not to mention giving him that karen haircut 😭
Wait Dick had story content for him in City and it got cut!?🤬 That’s crazy!
@@windghost2 sort of cut. From what I’ve heard the reason the Nightwing dlc comes with the Wayne manor map is because there was going to be a dlc where Nightwing defended the manor from tyger guards. I have also heard Tim was supposed to help but I don’t have a source and have no idea if it’s true or not.
Imagine having your child killed by Harley, as she bombs a convenient store and than Batman shows up with her... I'd off myself ngl.
If Young Justice got a spin off show strictly being about the Batfam, that'd be goated
It still drives me crazy that Tim drake robin my boy keeps getting screwed for garbage stories which drives me mad but that’s just my opinion.
literally it’s so annoying 🤦♀️
@@saralovesmusic. indeed it's so annoying
Hasn't he been turned Gay now?
Classic middle child syndrome
I think the bigger problem than size is they're all too similar. We don't need 20 characters that all know each other, all have similar skills, all have a similar aesthetic, all fight the same kind of crime in the same kind of way, and all have the same aspirations and moral code. That's why I liked Barbara more as Oracle than I ever lied her as Batgirl. It made her different.
I have issues with DCAU’s Bat-Family.
1. We got Tim in name only, as the character was pretty much Jason Todd-Lite
2. Batgirl was kinda just “there” for the most part. Didn’t ever really get enough of her own time in the spotlight. By the time of TNBA, she’s pretty much just a sidekick
3. This Dick Grayson is quite underbaked. He never got the time or chance to evolve out of Bruce’s shadow. Even when he was Nightwing, he was still operating in Bruce’s city, and teamed up with him all the time. And not to mention the fact that he never got over his Daddy issues
DCAU Bat-Family is extremely flawed in terms of portrayals and execution. They make Batman a brute which justifies Dick's distain for him only for the characters to call him an attention seeking teenager. Barbara despite being a fan favorite of Bruce Timm's is underdeveloped AF. And of course Tim Drake (and even Terry McGinnis) is just Jason Todd. I honestly think the show should've used Jason. I know The Jason Hate and TV censors were the main factors as to why he wasn't but let's be, they basically did Jim Starlin's Death In The Family with Return of The Joker.
@@gfilmer7150 yes and no. The real reason as to why they didn’t use Jason Todd, was mostly due to Paul Dini not liking the character, and the DCAU team wanting to use the more modern versions of characters. Which is why Batman was based off a lot of Denny O’Neil’s stories, why Superman was supposed to have a mullet, and why Tim, Wally, and Kyle were used instead of more iconic versions of the characters. But I pretty much agree with everything you said but the Batman thing. The character himself is done very well throughout the universe. And with TNBA, they start an arc of him being more cold and brutal, only for him to soften up with the debut of a new Robin, Superman, and the Justice League. Pretty sure they were taking inspiration from Batman Year Three and A Lonely Place of dying with that one. As something extremely similar was done after the Death of Jason Todd
@@joeker5208 Paul Dini doesn't like Jason? That's another Batman character I love that he doesn't like (the first one being Bane). Anyway, I agree, a lot of Batman The Animated Series was most definitely inspired by The Bronze Age of Batman. It's very telling with the inclusion of characters of like Ra's Al Ghul, Manbat, Killer Croc etc etc. But also Batman being a brute is in reference to Old Wounds where Dick was uncomfortable with how Batman attacked that one dude in front of his kid.
@@gfilmer7150 I figured you were most likely talking about Old Wounds. But that episode (and other instances in TNBA where Batman acts more brutal than in any other show) definitely seems inspired off of Year 3 and A Lonely Place of Dying, since those books had the whole; “Robin/Dick thinks Bruce is being to rough on criminals and is disgusting by it”
This is why that No Man’s Land animated series being rejected TWICE makes me sad. It was going to be refreshing seeing a series starting with a veteran Batman, Nightwing, Oracle, Tim Drake Robin, Cassandra Cain Batgirl, and even Jason Todd as the starting line-up.
No Man's Land series? My interest has been peaked.
@@gfilmer7150 Same. Leaving a comment in case anyone wants to elaborate
@@ninjaboy4831 Because No Man’s Land is a story that’s constantly adapted but not to its full scale.
@@gfilmer7150 Right. But I meant this is the first I'm hearing about a rejected series for it
@@ninjaboy4831 Same
They keep retreading Jason Todd's stuff because of the impact of the Under The Red Hood movie which while great, people have taken the wrong ideas from it. Instead of seeing Jason as a broken, tragic, complicated, and nuanced character, people view him as the classic outlaw hero, someone who kills but is undoubtedly the good guy. I think he should be retired because Jason isn't built for "the game" that Batman calls home.
With Tim Drake, I feel DC should move him out of Gotham like Dick Grayson and have him go to another city and has his own cast of villains. He can be on his own with new side characters, and then also bring his villains like Hadrian Armstrong (General/Anarky II) to wherever he sets up shop, preferably somewhere far from Gotham.
The only real problem with Dick is that yeah, he's been getting the shaft because people treat him as nothing more than worldbuilding and treat him as just another Gotham based crime fighter. There's also the fact that Deathstroke, his archnemesis (tied with Blockbuster) keeps getting paired with Batman when Slade doesn't mesh well with Bruce, not to mention Bruce already has a huge list of assassin villains that get neglected for Slade.
Couldn't agree more. We all love red hood conceptually but it's clear Jason's been in limbo ever since his return. Him and Harley have absolutely no business being in the batfamily, considering they, yknow, fucking murder people. And Tim and Dick get absolutely shafted for the sake of plot convenience. They also have the potential to be great but DC needs to sell their billionth batman v joker storyline so they get reduced to one-note supporting characters
@@smallrug3469 And it's like, Dick has his own city and cast so if DC don't want him interfering with a Batman story, then do something with him in Bludhaven. He has his own villains so they don't need to have him in Gotham fighting Batman villains.
And with Tim Drake, they could do the same thing with him, send him off which could lead to a revival of guys like Hadrian or King Snake. But the thing is, having them be with Batman in team up sells more in the short term.
I can’t stand DC trying to force some rivalry between Batman and Slade. Slade shouldn’t give a crap about Batman and his role could be replaced by bane aka Batman’s actual physical rival
@@dc7981 Bane, Lady Shiva, David Cain, Deadshot, KGBeast, Hell even Killer Croc would make more sense.
I really don't like the direction New 52 and after took Red Hood.
Edit: I don't know if this take is divisive or not but I kinda wish Bruce stayed dead after killing Darkside and Tim took up the mantel as the next Batman. Dick went threw a lot of character growth to become his own hero, having his own city to protect, his own rogues gallery and even leading his own team of heros. Having him become the new batman kinda undoes all of that.
Tim has also just shown to a better fit as batman than Dick.
part of the reason adaptations shy away from actually working with the Batfamily, as other creators have pointed out, is that it gives them no choice but to make Batman as a character age. DC comics themselves are somewhat afraid of doing this even as they include more and more kids to this man's house but then they don't want to admit how old the character would be by now.
An accurate adaptation of Batman, with the Batfamily as it is now, would be as a 40 something year old single father of 6 - 9 kids, most of which are adults with their own homes and partners and jobs/college. Somehow only else world stories have managed to do this.
on a related note, i recently realized that dick was included in detective comics as a wish fulfillment character for the kids reading along. for hollywood, bruce is the wish fulfillment character, and being a dad of six and counting isn't part of the fantasy
My biggest issue with the James Gunn Batman thing is that he keeps using images of Dick Grayson as Batman. If the Bat Family does get adapted live action they better not do my boy Tim dirty, hell they better not do anyone dirty.
100% agree!
How is one image that’s been said to not matter ‘keep using’ it
Batman bruce wayne and nis only son damian wayne. That film.
Tim won’t exist in Gunn universe so be prepared to be disappointed
@@jeremyfields9009 proof?
Speaking as someone whose favorite Robin is Tim and Dick, the new 52 made me hate Damien Wayne. It's hard to make media focusing on the Bat family because every writer is obsessed with blood ties.
It's tomasi who got obsessed with Damian... but he really doesn't fit the Robin title
@@Lauren007E Tomasi did an amazing job with Damian, he gave him a character arc and build more his personality, relationships and lore. Damian is great to fit Robin, in the same unique way Dick, Tim, Jason and Steph were, every Robin has different atories, personalities and themes and that's alright. Damian could be blood related to Batman but he has found so much in common with Dick and Alfred than his own father, the "found family" is still presentend in a different way but it's prresented.
@dianahi2663 I know, I enjoyed that series. But I dislike him as Robin since he just doesn't fit. Maybe if Dick stayed Batman he would.. or if he did just join Jason since they had an interesting dynamic in teen Titan's. As he is though he doesn't suit Bruce.
But I like the Batman and Robin series currently running, although its already retreading old ground with him
My biggest thing I hate in the DCAMU was the fact they did Nightwing so dirty, over and over and over again. Someone has a hate boner for Dick Grayson, as well as Jason and Tim while making that universe.
Don't get me started on Titans. That is a disgrace.
I never realized how similar Laura Kenny (X-23 or Wolverine) and Cassandra Cain were to each other in a way.
Honestly DC has screwed over Barbara Gordon a lot aswell, they keep treating her as a love interest for multiple robins instead of her own character. In arkham knight she's Tims girlfriend, in comics they made Jason have a crush on her and they kiss in the none canon 3 jokers book and in comics they just make her Nightwings girlfriend and nothing more.
I feel like there needs to be a difference between The Batman Family and Vigilantes in Gotham, like we have the batfam the main group and then there's other vigilantes who operate in Gotham.
The batfamily should be batman, his 4 sons, the 2 batgirls, Oracle and then if you want you can add catwomen. That makes 9, but only few of them should be in Gotham, others doing there own thing.
Batman, Damien, Catwomen, Tim and Oracle are in Gotham. Nightwing, Red Hood and Batgirls doing there own shit
Batwoman is the aunt of the Bat Family that we don't talk about.
@@Magnet_Chaos Basically lol
What about Duke, Helena, and Luke?
@@negressprincess I don't really care for Duke or Batwing but they can be apart of the Gotham Vigilanties and not the batfamily. Helena isn't apart of the batfamily for years
Yeah, the fact that they've paired up Barbara with every bat dude except the literal child at this point makes me kind of insane. Free her
To me the Bat Family will forever be just Robin, Nightwing, Redhood, Alfred and Oracle. Thats it.
SAME, DON'T KNOW OR CARE FOR OTHERS EXPECT FOR RED ROBIN.
Ty the Nightwing disrespect in animated movies needs to stop.
Not to much on Duke. They really need to give him a solo he's got mad potential.
I could see Duke being a secondary hero in another character's movie.
Like how I would like to see a Nightwing and Batgirl movie.
I think Duke has a huge amount of potential but I doubt a ton of people would go to see the movie with the current state of DC movies.
“Arkham games really gave Tim that haircut looking like Eminem..” I cannot unsee that bruh 😂😂
New York in DC is where unwanted characters go to die.
Yeah look at Fables 😂
Tbf that's just new york in real life too
The complete opposite of Marvel 😂
10:48 This is a really good point, and I’d like to add on to it a bit further. I think some of these writers create artificial conflicts like this is so they can have an excuse to keep Batman’s relationship with the family from rising up too high. What I mean by that is, it’s been shown in many recent stories how close Bruce has gotten to characters such as Dick, Selina, & Damian (to name a small few) since Alfred’s death and how those relationships have affected him on a personal level and his growth as a character. You’d think that would be a good thing, but I reckon the writers are afraid of going too far against the “status quo” of Batman’s character and the way he is typically depicted and create division storylines, such as the most recent one, as a sort of balancing measure. Of course, I could be wrong, but that’s what it seems like to me and I’m not particularly a fan of it.
The problem is there are too many members. It should be only Batman, Alfred, Robins (Off on their own outside of current Robin), and possibly Cassandra Cain. Once you have all these members it in turn nerfs Batman they now have to validate their membership by nerfing Batman. Also with all these members who are mainly in Gotham, why is there still all this crime in Gotham? Learning from the walking Ivy League and Dojo in Batman means that you will be highly intelligent and a capable warrior. Massive city events like City Of Bane, Joker War, Fear State, and Gotham War all basically happened back to back with them which renders Batman moot at this point. What good impact is he having on the city now since the writing for him is 💩? Lastly, now all they seem to do mainly is bicker and fight amongst themselves. Let him be the loving fatherly figure to them for once as it's sorely missed from DCAU/JLU Batman. If Batman is so toxic Dick and Barbara Move permanently to Bludhaven but this time it's in Maine instead of a suburb of Gotham City. Bruce built the Batcomputor and is a genius polymathic inventor he doesn't need you.
Bludhavens wayyy too close to Gotham, like Nightwing has Batfamily crossovers every 2 months in something that's supposed to be a solo comic
All this was exactly why I didn’t get into Batman comics for so long. All I would hear were fanboys going on and on about how Batman would TOTALLY run all over Superman in a fight, but somehow his can’t even get his shit together in his own city. Like sweeties, Metropolis ain’t having all these problems and you think you’re little ninja man is gonna walk away with an easy win? Get real.
@@manicpixiefangirl4189change that possibly to definitley
The Bruce/Barbara romance thing was created by Bruce Timm...who bragged saying "Yeah...we know its wrong! Thats why we did it" 🙄
Nah he’s covering his tracks cause he’s into it 😂
@@MILDMONSTER1234
ON GOD
@@MILDMONSTER1234 He gives me pedo vibes.
But…he didn’t create the pairing, it was done before.
@@juanddg4737 Maybe so...but its the 1st time I'd seen it.
@7:15 is absolutely my most favorite Robin Scene i have ever witnessed in life.
Tim gets no play since Damian, especially in comics.
Damian literally beats the crap out of Tim and takes his identity. lol
I mean both are getting dirty, Tim should actually started growing up as a character and stopped having 17 forever and being Robin and grow up to build his own apart identity instead of being Robin forever. Tim's path is crossing with Damian's path too so at the end both ended up being mistreated.
Tim for not getting a proper recognition to grow and Damian for not getting a proper chance to experimentate the transition of being Robin and fighting crime with Batman.
To this day there is only ONE version of Cassandra in films young justice
The problem isn't it's size it's how their all handled
I’m actually so hyped for the brave and the bold. They just gotta nail the casting
0:07
DC deserves nothing less than a standing ovation for this artistic revelation. It's akin to turning a venomous cobra into a vegan house pet, simply groundbreaking. What a monumental achievement to transform Harley Quinn, once the queen of chaos and anarchy, cavorting gleefully with the Joker in their bloody ballet, into Gotham’s candy-coated, morally sanitized darling. It's as if someone looked at a hurricane tearing through civilization and thought, "You know what? That could really use a makeover. Let’s give it a pastel rainbow and a puppy."
Witnessing Harley's metamorphosis from a gleefully murderous psychopath to Gotham's quirky, bubblegum-chewing savior is like a narrative alchemy that would leave even the ancient philosophers awestruck. The sheer audacity to retcon her not-so-little homicidal tendencies into quirky footnotes on her resume? Pure, unparalleled brilliance. It’s like watching someone repaint the Mona Lisa with a wide, toothy grin and calling it "approachable art."
But truly, let's erect monuments to the way DC has so masterfully glossed over the classic villainy that once defined Harley, flattening her into a poster child for redemption arcs so paper-thin they could double as origami supplies. It’s a visionary move, showing a deep understanding of character development by essentially hitting the reset button and shouting, "Do over!" with all the finesse of a toddler in a tiara tantrum.
Indeed, we should all take a moment to bask in the glow of DC's narrative prowess, as they strip away layers of characteristics like so much unwanted wrapping paper, to reveal the "true" Harley Quinn: a beacon of light and giggles, armed with the moral fortitude of a saint and the battle scars of a slapstick comedian. Because, at the end of the day, who needs villains and antagonists, when you can have sparkles and merchandising? Here’s to progress, DC. You’ve really outdone yourselves.
This comment deserves its own audiobook. Beautifully put
This comment is amazing
Harley is such a goated character bro! I definitely don’t want to commit atrocities on her that will make Joker look like a hero!
Lmao this comment is gold
I think it would be nice if some of them just... Retired. Tim Drake is my favourite member of the batman family, but he has been without a use for more than a decade now. So, he could just retire. He has lived a good life, fought the good fight, he could still reappear but he has leaved his superhero life behind
i loved his character in the Detective Comics run since the 2016 Rebirth launch. now I don't
That's not fair
@InevitableOption-ic2vxI'd rather they perma-kill to be honest. A superhero retiring is bound to look pathetic, weak, and disappointing. Ted Kord is in a similar spot to Drake. I think his death was easily the peak of the character. But modern comics are dead anyway.
Better that than Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker what happens to Tim Drake.
Just let him go to college
I love the Batfamily, thier the most dysfunctional family in comics.
I honestly don't get the dislike lost of fans have for them or why writer are so against using them. Batman was never really a loner for long.
Most his iconic stories work with and without them.
Batman works as a character Who lost his family and both creates a new one Of people who want to make sure no one else ever loses theirs.
BatFam 101 is using your darkness to fight for the light.
Ive frankly had enough "young bruce wayne learns to find his favorite gargoyle to brood on"
I'd make an Encanto Tim Burton style movie or Series about the vigilante family who protects their home town.
Adam's Family or the Monstars, the batfam gives heavy creepy but kind famiky vibes.
Loud House for Superheroes, 1 hero 10 sidekicks, bat-a-rangs and flying kicks
You can make Wayne Manor work as a Home for "Tramatized Teens"
Or since I practically love the 4 robins a
TMNT Style for the =Robins well (Nightwing leader in contorl, the wise guy/wild card is Red Hood, Tim Drake Brains of the Bunch, Count on Damian to through the 1st punch)
Before anyone says that they're not that interesting, Every single member.
Of the family has had their own solo series.
Hell every Male Robin, has lead a Titans-like team.
Nightwing Titans, Red Hood outlaws, Tim drake Young Justice, Damain Super Sons and
The Batgirls/Birds of Prey is fun
I'd love and Elseworld Story of them as Family of Vampire/Shadows.
I'd watch the hell out of any of those pitches.
I agree; I'm tired of the same old "edgy loner Ninja man broods on gargoyle and beats up criminals"
Give me a dysfunctional vigilante vampire family
@@jelancritic3158I’d take a crazy family who loves each other and fights criminals over continuous brooding loner man.
@@windghost2 honestly I'll take the broody man.
@Rengokuo4o6 why, what does he do for you? That character feel boring
sometimes as a comic book fan you have to accept that adaptations are adaptations they aren't and shouldn't be the end all be all we always have the comics but i do agree the bat family has gotten to damn BIG and the worst part is they keep adding on to it 😮💨😮💨
Wayne Family Adventures is iconic imo
To be fair, Red Hood would be a better choice over Damien because to the normie, a question of should Batman kill or not, would make for an interesting interpretation that they are not normally exposed to.
I think they just wanted to skip ahead to Red Hood.
Tim Drake (Robin) is my favorite character and seeing him treated by DC as if he doesn’t exist makes me so depressed.
Your cuts to memes are always on point😂
DC is gonna lose the copyright on Batman in like 10 yrs. They really need to establish the Bat Fam better to work around that. And justice for Tim Drake.
They aren’t losing it lol, you can just make a movie about a guy in a batsuit now but that’s it
Hearing James Gunn say Damien is his favorite makes me worried Tim gets cut off again 😭
Amazing video, love all the points that were made. I want to quickly mention 2 pieces of media that incorporate the Batfam that weren’t mentioned in this video.
1. The Lego Batman movie, which I personally think is a great movie to show Batman becoming more open to working with others and needing a bat family of some kind.
2. There’s an unofficial Batfamily webtoon called Wayne Family adventures which even though it’s probably not as known and I don’t think it’s official in any way does go to great lengths to highlight each member of the bat family and their dynamics with one another.
How are any of them cool with Harley being there after what she helped Joker do to Jason😂
Did she? I don’t remember her being involved with that scenario
Her character was created after Jason's death
@@betterlatethannever4529no but she was involved in Tim’s brainwashing in the animated series
@@Hecateofcrossroadsyeah, but that is only in the tv show.
I liked how "No mans Land" the comic did the depiction of the Batfamily.
With a few exceptions, the pre-New 52 era was the height of Batfam content for me. Dick, Damian, Tim, Steph, Babs, and even Helena all had fun stuff going on, and we got the see them actually interact with each other. Dick and Damian were on a team, Tim had moments with them and Steph, Babs was mentoring Steph, and Helena and Babs were working together while Babs was just doing her Oracle thing. Streets of Gotham and Tiny Titans were two very different takes on the franchise, allowing multiple ages to get in on the Batfam train. And every one of them felt fleshed out and interesting. Now, Jason and Cass got the short end of the stick by a long shot (which sucks), and Bruce only showed back up near the end (though his bits were great as well), but so many Batfam members were getting properly highlighted and actually interacting with each other at this time that it will always be my favorite time in comics.
Due to my fondness for this era, I just don't see how starting with a Bruce and Damian team up will work without Dick and Damian coming first. It's such a core part of Damian becoming Robin to me that it makes me sad every time it's overlooked. There's so little actual good Dick Grayson content outside of the comics the way it is that it feels like a further slap in the face to his fans.
I agree, Post-Crisis Batfamily is by far the best version but, Post-Crisis Jason isn't a part of Batfamily which makes sense, since he shouldn't be, and Cass was at her best during Post-Crisis, sure they moved her aside in Batman: Reborn era but it was clearly temporary, her character wasn't ruined and the writer made it clear that they didn't forget about her.
*6:31** Any Love for the 2004 MASTERPIECE will always be welcome on this Town*
This is why you're one of my favorite channels. Consistent uploads, funny as fuck, and you bring attention to issues we've all lowkey had with dc for years and show people good content that they otherwise might not have known about. You never miss man, keep it up!
Just found your channel earlier today, loving your videos man keep it up
Batman 04 is very underrated. Glad you brought it up.
8:17 We should've saw the signs....
Like father like son
I miss Post-Crisis Batfamily.
What they doing to tim drake red robin and jason todd red hood is just dirty. Gives them so good storyline please
On the topic of CW, while many people don't really like the show Arrow - I enjoy it and really wish we could've gotten a CW Batman type show where the Batfamily characters are gradually introduced like in Arrow
Agreed, instead we got that damn Batwoman tv show and the dumpster fire that was Gotham Knights.
11:06 I like Duke Thomas. I enjoy We Are Robin. He has a dynamic with Cassandra in Batman and the Outsiders. Cassandra’ dynamic with Duke better compare her dynamite with Stephanie in the Cloonrads’ Batgirl comic. The comic wasn’t good.
As Duke being the only Meta-Human. in the Bat family can lead story potentials. Including his former friends Riko and Dax, two former Robin also got powers(yeah Riko and Dax are Duke’s Jason Todd if that’s understandable.)
Mr Bloom can be a personal villain for Batman and The Signal, cause Mr.Bloom is a Metahuman too. And The was a different Mr.Bloom that is childhood of Duke Thomas.
I should mention that Duke Thomas’ first adaptation was into The BatWheel Pre-School Cartoon. He and Cassandra are Batman’s Sidekicks. And The BatWheel’s Versions of Duke and Cassandra’ costumes make me think about Damian Wayne and Barbara Gordon. I feel the BatWheel originally intended to be Damian and Barbara but changed them to Duke and Cassandra at the last minute.
Harper Row she had good team with Batman, good friendship with Cassandra. Harper Row had a proper ending of her retiring as hero. But Harper Row to stop Punchline manipulation the media that influence Harper’s brother.
I like Punchline for being a villain.
In Young Justice cartoon Harper Row was Halo’s love interest who a victim of domestic abuse.
And Gotham Knights Harper. I got a feeling that is the worst version of Harper Row.
Jace Fox. *Jace Fox is Trash. 100% Trash* He is one most miserable character I experienced. Not just him, the Fox family is miserable. Tiffany was fine but ugh I do not like Jace Fox comic. It gets worst when you read the comic and find out what Lucius Fox has done.
I think Dukes Powers should be mystical. Mystic and Occult is better fit for the Bat Fam. Also light and shadow powers feel way more mystic then meta. I also like the Cass Cain & Duke Thomas relationship. They should date.
Harper Row is cool as well. I think she and Duke have distinct niches at least.
Jace Fox is absolutely a waste.
I also think Red Hood would be well suited to move in a more mystical direction. Take some inspiration from Blade, Moon Knight and Ghost Rider.
I got no use for Tim and Steph.
Nightwing and Damian stay the course.
I do like the idea of Batwing and Batwoman team up but the execution needs work.
@@Sjaddix Duke can’t date Cassandra. Duke is currently dating Isabella, another We are Robin teammate. Different from Isabella to Riko and Dax, she stay with Duke can help him out as Mission Control commander like Barbra Gordan as Oracle and Felicity from Arrow.
I feel Duke’s Biological Father, Gnomon, would have connections with Ra’s Al Ghul as both of them are immortals. That would
Example a few things. Heck, maybe Gnomon might’ve have connections with Vandal Savage.
I mean ancient aliens or ancient does ties with occult and urban legends. Two examples. Blue Beetle and Dandadan
I really wish they could use Tim and Steph more. Especially Tim. He one my favorite Robin yet he gets so little.
Oh yeah Luke Fox and Kate Kane team up in current Outsiders Comic by Jackson Lazing and Collin Kelly. I haven’t read it but I’ve heard it that comic wasn’t good.
@@commonsense5199 imo, Cassandra should date Tim. They had good chemistry in Post-Crisis after Stephanie's supposed death. Tim canonically finds her (and her mother before even meeting Cass) attractive. Tim helped and interacted with her more than all other Batfamily member's combined in Batman: Reborn era.
@@fdjtron1732THEYRE SIBLINGS BRO 😂
@@Sjaddixew hell nah duke shouldnt date cass
Your edits be on point🤣😭
Dick as Batman era was an underrated Bat Family
Fax, that was peak Batfamily
Gotham Knights was treating them like the TMNT which I don't mind lol. A Robin's book should be like that.
I think gunn will condense it for his dcu. I think it’s just gonna be Batman, the 4 robins, catwoman, and batgirl. Now that’s still a lot especially with the 4 robins cause that’s something that’s definitely gonna confuse the general audience without proper explanation. Personally this is how id explain the 4 robins in brave and the bold. First things first I would have Tim drake in this new dcu be the oracle to batman. He’s not gonna be called oracle but rather the role she plays is what Tim drake is gonna be just without the whole being disabled nonsense. So basically In this universe Damian Wayne is technically the 3rd robin cause after Jason Todd batman refuses to have another robin and endanger another child. U could than have a scene where batman takes Damian in the bat cave and Damian meets Alfred and Tim. Batman leaves Damian with Tim and Alfred for some reason cause he has to go do something or whatever. Tim is trying to bond with damian and he refuses to than sees 2 robin costumes. He asks who’s are these and this is where u get Tim saying that the first costume is dick Grayson and tells Damian that he’s now nightwing. Damian asks about the 2nd robin and Tim stays quite and says Batman couldn’t save him. And there u go u, now to the general audience u have an easy explanation dick the retired robin, Jason the dead robin, and in the movie u have Damian being the current Robin. And now each Batman family member has a role and has something to do. Nightwing can get a spin off hbo max tv show after brave and the bold and than he’s the leader of a titans movie. Red hood eventually comes back For an under the red hood adaptation. Tim is “oracle” in every Batman movie while Damian is the main robin running around with Batman. And later on depending on how long the dcu is successful, in like a 3rd Batman movie or whatever u can have Tim drake suit up as Red Robin because he feels that Batman and the rest of the bat family needs all the help they can get. And by that time it won’t be confusing cause the general audience would have already gotten to know Tim
Ironically, this is one of the problems that the Crisis on Infinite Earths in 1985-1986 was supposed to fix, along with the Superman family. DC Comics streamlined their entire continuity down post-Crisis, but in the 21st century they seem to have forgotten why they did it in the first place, and have allowed everything to become even more convoluted than it was before.
Duke, Cassandra, Cassie, all unused for literally no reason
It’s an issue the mainline marvel comic universe 616 had for quite some time (I think it’s changed? Havent kept up).
There were way too many spider people. Miles literally got trapped in the 616.
And the inherent issue with the bat family compared to spiderman, is it’s name. It’s supposed to be a family. Yet, in the comic, we don’t really see enough of them together and developing as a family.
There’s that recent web toon that actually touches on this topic, and is such a breath of fresh air for these characters. And, it feels in character with most iterations of them. Yes it’s got a lighter tone, but it’s the most we’ve seen of the family showing their bond besides a few good moments.
The concept, as in name, while recent in Batman’s history, is actually an idea that makes sense. Bruce lost his parents. His only family being Alfred. And years of isolation and brewing of his negative emotions, that is till he becomes more mature and meets all kinds of people. A family of sorts starts to grow. All these people who either share a situation somewhat similar to him, or their admiration growing their bond with him, creates this family dynamic.
I honestly think Gordon should somewhat be part of it too. Yes, it somewhat goes against my initial point, but he’s been such an important part of Bruce’s life as Batman throughout most incarnations, they’re basically brothers in arms.
Batman
Nightwing
Red Hood
Red Robin
Robin
Signal
Oracle
Spoiler
Black Bat
Batwoman
Huntress
Alfred
Outside of Incorporated I ignore the rest depending on the timeline I add Terry that’s a lot of characters to juggle no more expanding just refine but that’s been questionable lately
I agree with the aliases you kept certain characters as, like keeping Barbara as Oracle, Tim as Red Robin, and Cassandra as Black Bat.
The only one i would add in that you left out would be BatWing/Luke Fox, and maybe remove Huntress
I thought Cassandra was Orphan not Black Bat
@@negressprincess She took up both of those names at one point or another, along with also taking up the mantle of batgirl in the past.
Personally I agree that the Batfamily has become too big nowadays. At most I would say that the Btafamily should, at most, have Batman, the Robins, Stephanie, Cassandra, Barbara, Selina ,and maybe Duke, but even then, it would be very hard to write any story with everyone in it. So if the story were to have this big of a family it would need to introduce characters and establish dynamics over the course of multiple comics/movies/episodes. Any more members would have to be part of the Batman Inc and only appear occasionaly like Batwoman and Azrael. Also, some members could interact with the Batfamily and help them / learn from them, but would be better of on their on like Harley
13:39 so long as Gunn casts Alan Ritchson as Batman/Bruce Wayne, I know they’ll be on the right track. Have Nightwing & Red Hood mentioned, but you don’t even need them to show up in the movie.
the only new bat family member I like is duke and maybe harper row
Signal had a cool run till his book got canceled and he got the black noir treatment as a silent side character
I never even heard of those guys......
My batfamily is Batman, the 4 main Robins, Batgirl and Alfred. I'd be willing to extend it to Batwoman, Catwoman, Comissioner Gordon and Batwing, but Harley? Come on! She's already got the Suicide Squad, Joker's crew and Ivy, how many associates does she need?
Better to stay away from it than mess it up.
I agree Cassandra Cain is very underrated and the best batgirl in my opinion.
I don't like Duke, batwing, Jace fox, blue bird and batwoman
Idek who jace fox is but i like batwing and batwoman and signal. Blue bird felt so unnecessary when reading her comics tho. But ik people like her
I feel like Duke’s powers should be more mystical or gothic in nature to fit with the aesthetic, but his presence definitely gives the Batfam an different edge. Batwoman and Batwing have some cool team ups with each other and with Bats so I’ll allow them.
Jace and Bluebird are unnecessary.
bro you are so right for this.
as someone that has enjoyed (to an extent) watching some of the shows where they completely butcher the relationships, namely Titans, whenever i think about it even a little bit it maked me wanna rewrite it myself so it actually makes sense
I would love to see more duke thomas Signal. He brings something interesting to the dynamic, but needs more comics to flesh him out.
You know it kinda sucks that the new batman movie in the new DCU will have Damien skipping so much history like they’re definitely going to have todd be mentioned in one line and I bet their skipping Tim
The robins, batgirl and cain shouldve been it. Like wtf, Bruce suddenly having a bat cousin then we get his employees son?? Tf
I feel the same way about the spider verse too many characters and others being pushed aside
“I low key forgot he existed” I didn’t even KNOW he existed until now
7:16 beatin’ Penguin @$$ 😂😂😂
Batman left the building when Denny O'Neil was forced to retire, I don't know this Person under the Cowl.
I agree with you as I do not care about Duke Thomas nor the Fox brothers and don’t get me started on the original Batwing and how he just left. I mean even I think that DC has a Batman and family problem with how big it is. I keep on waiting for the day when they have a massive story where it is just cut it down to size or two.
You should've covered Lego Batman, both the games and the films. The Batfamily is featured rather prominently, they're even major theme in the Lego Batman film.
6:33
OH MY GOD SOMEONE MENTIONED MY FAVORITE BAT FAMILY DEPICTION. I really love this show. I hope more people get to watch it
Please go read Wayne Family Adventures and make vid on it cuz dispite it being a webcomic and that one thing about Tim Drake(chapter 40-41 i don't like it doesn't make it bad just yeah...) This depiction of bat family feels like a family i love Cassandra Cain depiction here the most second to her is Tim Drake and Damian conflict which gives a lot to both of their characters, Steph gets asome much needed screen time as well as Duke who i honestly forgoten existed before this also normal ish dynamic between OG members is soo good you can't hate this Jason...(i can go on about it for a long time...) well yeah Please read it and make a Vid about it like this one love to hear your thoughts.
If you want there is a voiced version on youtube...
Yeah if it wasn't for the Tim stuff, this webcomics owuld have been perfect.
Tbh the cass depiction is dog shit, they still have her as orphan in it, shit suit with no bat symbol+trash codename
04 Batman is GOATED
It sucks how Stephanie Brown and Cassandra Cain have never been adapted really ever, and in dceu she has nothing to do with cass
I love the bat girls and they honestly are cooler than the robins to me
I would've liked skins for them in Arkham knight
The Batman of the early 2000 was peak (if u know u know)
Pre New 52 was peak Batfam.
I haven’t watched yet but I gotta say I appreciate the consistent uploads
Oh a fellow Cassandra cain fan too? Subscribed 😂
I say have less bat family members & focus on what we already have.
Former Robins and Batgirls only, it's wayyy easier to get into
Agreed. Scale it down to 8 members, and have 4 of those be in other cities like Nightwing.
Man i just wish something would give stephanie brown another shot as mainstream robin, homegirl feels criminally underatted
Thank goodness Batman beyond is not here for now😬
10:47 I get tired of the bat family beating the s*** out of Red Hood every time he goes against the wave not one time they try and see it from his point of view beating the s*** out of him till this day red hood needs to get all the outsiders of the bat family and make his own family branch
Honestly, Jason and the Batfamily should never have made a peace in the first place. Man shot 10-years old Damian when they first met and then tried to kill Tim (again) and Dick.
I'm 50/50 I almost don't disagree with you I think it's crazy how a bunch of outsiders can still single out it's almost suicide crazy just because he kills they treat him just like Harley Quinn & hush
Just to say my perfect team would be the Grinch night Batman Red Hood and Damian Wayne and the ghost guy can't remember his name
@@fdjtron1732 What? You kidding?
@@Rengokuo4o6 have you not read Battle for the Cowl or anything about Jason pre-new 52? Original Red Hood/Jason Todd is anti-villain not anti-hero.
I feel while critique is always valuable; I think we should always honor the fact that, in tandem to the bat family growing unnecessarily, development simply takes times. While I understand the frustration, a superhero aficionado myself, and question their resistance to simply take heed of pre-existing lore, it also just the nature of comics -- there always will be creative liberty in depiction, especially in film format. Not to say characters should be a complete bastardization, but allow flexibility and error it'll prevent disappointment in the end. I'm grateful for the media we have received at one point we dreamed for some of these characters to grace the screen. I think your advice was spot-on for future development, however, and offer interesting ways to re-imagine the familial structure of a vigilante unit, especially the idea of starting with Damian Wayne, the blood heir. I think this view mirrors the change in pace young justice has gone through taking a larger task on at exploring the DC Universe by asking the audience to lose their attachment to the original cast
I’m convinced Damien is the reason we don’t see Cassandra often as they both have basically have the same character arc of cold assassins learning to become people not tools. Damien is also why we don’t see Terry often, DC only wants one official blood son to Batman and one heir to the cowl sadly
Nah Barbara is more of a reason why we don't see Cass often.
Too many people see her as the main batgirl and ignore Oracle.
@@huntertezz sucks too cause I honestly like Babs a lot more as Oracle
@@bemiatto67 Same, Oracle was even doing more than Batgirl.
It sucks Dc media and casual fans see Barbara as just Batgirl. At least Young Justice had Oracle.
@@huntertezzit's the one girl allowed problem..... she's so cool as Oracle too, it's painful
I got another kind of problem with bat family and Batman himself, because in many modern media Batman written as a person who will never past a mantle to anyone even if died he got some plans to back him up, what raises a question why he need bunch of sidekicks in a first place.
5:44 was the realest thing ever lmao
I’m glad people have hope for the more live action batfamily. Cause I sure as hell don’t. Titans and Gotham knight made sure to stomp out the little hope I have left.
I think one quick fix to this is to give the members who haven't had much to shine an arc in the comics with batman like 10-20 issues just to build them up more as characters and to get fans invested more. Then the next step would be through games and animated movies
Here would be my line up for the Batfamily:
The Core Seven:
Batman, Alfred, Dick, Tim, Barbara, Cassandra, Damian
The Reserve Batfam members (codename: Cavalry):
Jason (depending on how well he's getting on with Bruce at the time), Stephanie, Duke, Kate, Harper, and Luke Fox
Occasional Allies:
Catwoman, Azrael, Katana, Huntress
This way we keep it below 20+ members, which is admittedly excessive. And it gives the opportunity to have other Batman-related characters go off and do their own thing and have their own storyline without constantly having to show up in Gotham.
As much as I love Jason, I understand that his character may not always be the best fit for the Bat-family. Hence his placement in the Reserve category. It doesn't completely remove him from the family and still keeps him pretty close with the other core members, but it also allows him the freedom to go off and do his own thing, without the pressure of Batman finding out or threatening to kick him off the team. Although, once Alfred dies (or after since he already did in the comics), I feel like Jay would instantly move up the ladder to Core Member status again, if only to be with his family more because Alfred’s death takes a toll.
It also gives Tim, more time to shine and something to do because my boy has been lacking in content recently because, in pure middle-child fashion, he is always overlooked by the oldest (Dick and Jay) and/or the youngest (Damian). So this puts him front an center especially since Dick has his own city to protect anyway, so he won't be around as much either.
I was honestly tempted to put Damian in the reserve section and Jason in the core seven but then thought better of it. I already explained why for Jason, but for Damian, he is too ingrained in the core Batfamily now for me to make a shift. Honestly, I think he has potential to be great, if the writers actually tried. So, with proper writing and care, I’ll keep him on the core seven.
Babs is self-explanatory as are Dick and Alfred.
Cassandra is on the main team because I think she was the best Batgirl successor to Babs, and I really wanna see more father-daughter relationship moments with her and Bruce. So yeah.
The others are also pretty self-explanatory. I mean, we rarely see them anyway, although we are starting to get more and more of Kate, Duke, and Luke I feel.
Stephanie had a rocky start as the actual fourth Robin, but she got better once she became her own hero. I’ll keep her as Spoiler, because again Cass is the only other Batgirl to me.
Catwoman is an occasional ally because she’s still a scheming klepto, and I don't really like her with Bruce, because of how much she fucking flip-flops.
Katana is one of those allies that could easily become a reserve member should one of the others retire or if she just decided to stay in Gotham for a while.
Azrael is an occasional ally because he is more unknown, but still closely rooted in Batman lore to be associated with the Bats. He also has the potential to become a reserve member.
Harley has no business being in the family bro I've been feeling this way about Harley for awhile now (even before SSKTJL) i get that she is one of the rogues that can be rehabilited but why do the writers act like she ( especially in the Arkham series ) hasn't don't some pretty crazy stuff on her own or to please the Joker but the writers look at all the things she has done and boil it down to "Toxic Relationship"