I hate how dc always disrespects Nightwing in some way. They kill him with his own stick that a less good robin (Damien) threw at him which is a super dumb death. Then in one cartoon, I think he dies so I didn't continue the movies just for that reason. Then in one of the comics, I think that Harley Quinn sexually assaulted him. Then in the show, they kill him by having a sleep walking clown kill him. Like why are fan-favorite characters hated by the creators?
@@Kyarchuu_draws Yeah i don't even think he ever had a respectable death, like i believe he got hit with his own Nightstick and then fell on a conveniently placed rock in one of the comics that came out years ago aswell.
What’s super weird is the hypocrisy around her character. She can never be seen as “The Joker’s girlfriend” because that’s degrading and romanticises abusive relationships…but she can be celebrated and marketed as “Poison Ivy’s girlfriend” (who in turn has been reduced to nothing but Harley’s girlfriend) despite the fact that relationship also started out as very manipulative.
Yeah but the difference is that at least with poison ivy they talk about their problems and are kinda cute (this depends of the writer) and the poison ivy just being Harley girlfriend I get that
The fact the she is an obsessed with Joker IS her character. It's not supposed to be good or wholesome, we as an audience are supposed to be disgusted by how Joker manipulates and abuses her, and how she does absolutely atrocious things for him because she's madly in love. She is either a tragic character with a proper ark of redemption (like they did in 2004 The Batman series, if my memory serves me right) with enough levity in the storytelling not to make it too grim, or she's just an irredeemable psycho maniac, like in Arkham series.
I've grown tired of her romance with Poison Ivy as well. Poison Ivy is a character with so much potential, and is just held back massively as "Harley Quinn's girlfriend". Ivy is a misanthrope and downright crazy most of the time, mostly lacks empathy for her fellow humans, so she's meant to be this powerful, lonesome, uncaring plant lady who used her intellect and sex appeal (and I mean come on, she's hot as hell, that's literally part of her character) to manipulate people her way. Instead, most of the time she's just a shallow serial killer as part of someone else's plans, or just the "voice of reason" in her dynamic with Harley Quinn. Ivy isn't a good guy, there's been great depictions of her becoming more empathetic, and Batman seeing the good side of her, but she's still a mass-murdering psycho. I understand that Harley and Ivy are both "developed" being together, but keeping them together has stunted them both, and quite frankly, it's not a good look for a lesbian relationship when it's really toxic like that.
That's exactly what I think, Ivy is the kind to seduce men and women to manipulate them but not to fall in love with them. She see them as dvmb cause she cheats in seduction by using her pheromones. She's like a cat playing with mouses. She's very intelligent, misanthropic and the only thing she likes is nature. There's some iteration where she showed interest to Batman bc he's stoic, intelligent, lonesome and heroic and she asked him to join his force to her but he declined. She's in a way a great anti-hero. Idk if there's an iteration where she's a politician but damn it would be great to see this eco-terrorist kickas some corrupted fake ecologists politicians. The reason why Ivy tried to convince Harley to dump the Joker was bc she couldn't imagine herself being in infatuation with someone who treats her like a dog, cause she is fully independent. She was her friend, they had a Thelma and Louise dynamic, no more. Ivy being with such an unserious girl like Harley is just so antithetical. Harley was imagined as a codependent character to the Joker, she was not a good girl anymore and that's was great like this cause she developed another facet of the joker. Not every character needs to "evolve" or empower themselves.
@@LaPaisiblePetiteGnomette I'm glad to find someone who agrees! The only part I think is difficult to justify consistently is her being an "anti-hero". She's a straight up villain, through and through, no matter her motive. I think her becoming an anti-hero with Harley's help is cool sometimes, but often leads to her character going stale. I did like Batman showing compassion and care for Ivy, which helped her understand that fighting alone will achieve nothing, but I doubt the comic creators I gonna want to push the "strong, independent woman" type helped by a billionaire man. Batman is the antithesis and the "cure" to all of his villains, and I think the creators in DC forget that A LOT. Ivy isn't a reasonable, rational person, that's her biggest character flaw, and that's what gets in the way most of the time, she's too narcissistic and hateful to accept that her methods and her ways are wrong. To suddenly have her change personality entirely when she gets all lovey with Harley is strange. I get the Harley Quinn show is a parody of Batman, but I feel that it's defined Ivy too much and too differently from who she is, or should be, as a character. And I absolutely agree with your Thelma and Louise comparison too. Ivy is the kind of gal-pal girlfriend to Harley, it wasn't really romantic at all early on, and I think the romantic side of their dynamic came from the fan-service-y fetishizing of their relationship, which started in the Batman Animated Series, and DC noted how they could utilise the fan perception.
@@kibikiwi175 Yeah, when I said that's she's an anti-hero I meant that she has good intentions bc she wants to save the environment but she's too cold to care about the human's fate. You're right, she's not rational, she is wild and dangerous as "mother nature". I don't like when villains like Harley or Ivy works with Batman, I don't get why all vilains need to become nice guys, it's too weird. I also don't like the introduction of punchline, she's so unoriginal and looks too much like Neo-Joker. Also yep, Harlivy is just a weird fan-service thing, not empowerment or anything else.
Harley helped the joker torture jason todd for a whole year, and knew joker was gonna kill children and sow the bodies together for a joke on the parents so the kids would be returned in "one piece" then shes supposed to be a good guy in suicide squad?
@@emeryltekutsu4357thats another problem with modern batman comics, the joker nowdays is just a cheap way to draw torture porn just to shock the viewer with each writter trying to out-shock the last one Batman's moral code is an important part of the character but when you make a character so degenerate that does such things like the joker it just makes batman look like a dick who dont care
Honestly, harley has gotten off way too easy. She has done unredeemable stuff. Just because she has trauma, that doesn't mean she gets a pass for doing terrible stuff.
Bro injustice harley is the very thing you're describing. And Batman ain't shit for letting her join his side. Even in the animated film he wasn't shit telling sups he doesn't get off that easy
I fucking hate injustice harley for that reason despite her assisting nuking a city with the joker she gets off waaaaayyyyyy too easily and is redeemed to be moraly righteous in injustice 2 gross
Just plea insanity and you’ll get off Scott free. Thats how Vince Li got away without facing any punishment despite commit the most sickly heinous act to Tim McLean. Harley Quinn can kill trillions and just plea insanity and change her name and boom, everything’s fine and dandy.
She’s been so flanderized. They removed so much of the tragedy behind her, and that’s why I really liked the 3-issue miniseries Harleen: because it remembered that she’s not just a quirky character for the masses.
I hate that she joins the bat family. It’s so weird imo. Shes a terrible person that was complicit in so many crimes along side joker but DC acts like she is innocent and never did anything wrong. She is way too oversaturated in media. Don’t get me wrong i like Harley Quinn but it’s too much.
how can she even be trusted by them at all enough to accept her, at least Catwoman just steals, she's more on par with Penguin, an informant with connections than a trusted recruit
People forget that, in her original origin and solo series, Harley was not a heroic or moral person. Joker never forced her to join him. She became obsessed with him all on her own, and started committing crimes to get his attention, not because he told her to. She always had her own autonomy and she chose to seek him out. There are real women out there who behave like her and share her attitude (think serial k*ller stans). She should not be a hero in any form.
@@vividlantern8854That’s on WB being too reluctant to green light anything not Batman or Superman with a big budget, taking chances with the DC Universe and giving characters like her and Adam Strange a chance. Our first Flash on the big screen is in The Lego Movie and we know the business with Ezra Miller which might have poisoned the well for Flash movies with how the solo movie performed more or less because of the starring lead.
@@animationcentral.3799Cap. Zatanna has a more interesting backstory, more funny and likable personality and powers, while Harley has become a parody of a Deadpool parody
I feel so bad for Nightwing fans,He gets killed by harley quinn, embarrassed in that batman and Harley Quinn film, loses to harley in the arkham games and Get’s kidnapped by penguin.
I always find it crazy that Arkham Asylum: Harley Quinn is easily defeated with one counter. Arkham Knight: Harley is strong enough to take out nightwing while fighting several cops.
@@phabiorules that’s what I’m saying in all the Arkham games she gets one tapped by Batman but nightwing and multiple police officers get cooked by her
One of main problens is they seem to put all the blame on the joker and not harkey herself. She was always crazy, the joker got her to bring her craziness to the outside and not have to hide it anymore.
I think the main problem is that instead of using her past as an explanation for her actions, they use it as an excuse. “It’s not her fault for killing and torturing all of those innocent people, she was being abused.”
@@WhyNot-mj3hjthose people who excuse it because she was abused have to realize that she was not some innocent civilian that did not know any better. She was a psychiatrist that worked at a mental asylum. She would not have been abused in first place, if she had actually acted like a professional psychiatrist. The number 1 rule of working at a mental asylum is to not form any bond with your patient. Once you realize that you are starting to care for your patient, you have to request to be assigned to another patient. Since the patient trying to bond with you is actually trying to use you to aid in their escape from the asylum.
@@Rawan.9472the even crazier part is that she's supposed to be a novice at doing psychiatry. She shouldn't have been offered to work at arkham in the first place. Her first introduction she didnt even have any actual training in the animation at the least, she got her "degree" from the internet and so everyone who complained about her being psychiatrist and she should know x y z are plain wrong and actually makes sense she fell for joker so easily. She had no or barely any training as a psychiatry to begin with. Idk when it started treating her "degree" seriously in the comics when she was introduced as harley started in animation before comics but im kinda upset I fell for the stupidity thinking harley was a good psychiatrist and never started that way.
The Harley animated series made a big deal about Harley realizing it was her own fault and her own decision and actually took some pretty direct shots at what you're talking about.
Jesus Christ died for your sins on the cross. Repent and believe in him or you will be separated from God The Father for all eternity and face hell forever, for all eternity, never ending
Harley used to be a treasure you had to dig deep to find in media. Now she's fucking everywhere. Like some kind of harley quinn inflation. Quinnflation
I genuinely just don't find her interesting by her self. The whole joining the Batfamily thing too is weird. Like everytime Joker killed someone, she was right there too. There's gotta be a limit, bro. She's reformed? Fine. But she can't hang around us. Also, that Nightwing SA scene is inexcusable. Never would be accepted with the genders flipped.
I personally think that wasn't SA. Dick says "The things I do for Gotham" and in my view he is giving a consent. He don't want to do this now, because he has a job to do, but he doesn't mind if that would happened if the time wasn't a problem. Yeah, whole movie is horny mess and shows how unhinged Bruce Timm looks like.
Well that’s a problem with Red Hood too. I think the Bat Family is too inclusive. Dick, Babs, Tim, Cass, Steph, Damian, Duke, Luke (honorary), Huntress (honorary, depending). That’s pretty much it for me in terms of direct heroes in the family. Not counting extended inc folks like Knight and Squire etc. Jason was at his best as an adversary in my book. Harley doesn’t have to be a full on villain anymore but being in the batfamily just feels wrong. And I just don’t care for Kate…unrelated issue. Get her outta hur.
Lobo would have been a great Deadpool equivalent, or if not they could have used someone like Plastic man, The Creeper, Condiment King, LiveWire, heck DC could have brought Freakazoid into the DCU. Or just made a brand new character instead.
@@Goremasterhelsing I’d rather not see those characters quipping left and right. Lobo is all about that and he’s another character that’s nearly impossible to kill.
Which is baffling because there are spacefaring teams in the comics who can do exactly that. Suicide Squad was the Red Shirt Squad before they crowbarred her into it.
I agree, and it's stupid of them. The Suicide Squad is a group of criminals who do dirty work under the fear of death, the Guardians of the Galaxy are adventurers who fly through space and get into adventures. These are different characters and concepts.
Feel like if they want their Guardians of the Galaxy, they should have went for Green Lantern Corps or Young Justice. Suicide Squad are villains like the Guardians started out sure but like they aren't meant to be as redeemable as Guardians. They are just forced to carry out actions under threat of death.
Yeah sometimes she be outsmarting and beating Batman’s ass and i just can’t help but think that Batman knows over 100 martial arts, is seen as worthy enough to be the heir of the league of assassins and is the world’s greatest detective but is getting his ass handed to him by Harley Quinn a psychiatrist who specializes in the criminally insane and has no combat training and is so “smart” she didn’t even realize from the jump joker manipulated her but can predict all of Batman’s moves
shes kinda a martial arts expert cus shes an olympic gymnasist but yeah i agree with your comm, i like it when they water down her powers and make her the 2 key things she is, a gymnasists and a psychiatrist like in the new series caped crussador, they did an amazing job of giving us a new rendition of harley
@@pewialmostdie3631 she was never a gymnast in BTAS she was just a psychiatrist,nothing more than just jokers eight had woman but now she's a girl boss beating up everyone, Batman,Granny Goodness 😅😅😅🤣
There's this weird obsession in portraying Batman in being killed or humiliated. Gotham Knights Batman "died" and now this. Catwoman leaves him at the altar. Lucius Fox basically takes his money. The Bat Family leaves him. Alfred dies. These Hollywood types must really hate characters that millions of people look up to.
That's modern "deconstruction" trope. Every writer wants to make his stample on the mythos so they think that destroying part of Bruce and trying to rebuild him in their own way is a good plot. Not so much. Where are simple detective stories? DC? Where?
I like Harley Quinn, but I do feel like they’re trying too hard to push her as a “meta-funny character” and often they excuse the horrible things she does by saying “she is an antihero”. Honestly, my favorite version of Harley Quinn (outside of the animated series because that’s a classic) is probably the injustice version. That one actually had Harley go through a legitimate redemption arc and the fact that she used to be a terrible person is acknowledged but she is actively trying to make up for it.
DC has a huge problem with writing villains as protagonists. When they do, they turn them into anti-heroes but their understanding of anti-heroes is "good guy who kills." Harley Quinn, a woman who was in an abusive relationship and escaped it, struggling to come to terms with the bad things she did is the fun quirky clown girl who saves the day alongside Batman. Deathstroke, a ruthless international assassin who did horrible things in order to murder a group of teenagers over something that wasn't their fault is just The Punisher but with a paycheck. Red Hood, the most nuanced, sympathetic, ruthless, and attention grabbing Batman antagonist is basically also just another Punisher clone. Trying (and failing) to kill Gotham criminals. Anti-heroes are who do bad things in order to protect either people around them, the world as a whole, or both, with them going to dark places only to be criticized and fight their way back from the temptation of becoming a villain. Yeah, all three of these do not meet this criteria at all. They're still black and white good guys, with the only questionable thing they do is killing but all the people they kill a red shirt bad guys are told to us over and over again have done domestic violence or murder.
@@gfilmer7150 Honestly, Deathstroke is the worst one because us New Teen Titans fans will always remember how he slept with Terra AKA a minor. Apparently later it was retconned he didn’t sleep with her, only kissed her once and baited her with a promise of a relationship once she was older, but that’s still blatant grooming. Having him ever work with the heroes will always feel icky to me because of that. Like, I enjoyed the Dark Nights Metal comic, but when Aquaman and Slade had to work together, and Slade would occasionally criticize/insult Aquaman, Aquaman should have just retorted, “and you did very inappropriate things with a teenage girl. In other words, shut the hell up, Wilson.”
@@doctordoom85 DC realized the character was popular and so decided to play into that popularity. Like I said, they don’t know how to write villains as protagonists. The most you get with that concept being done well is in the DCAU shows. Two-Face, Feat of Clay, Birds of a Feather, Catwalk, Harley’s Holiday, Double Talk, and Joker’s Millions to name a series of Episodes following villains as protagonists while not making them good guys.
Yep, she didn't had a tragic story as many characters had. I mean she seduced her college teachers to become a psychiatrist cause she didn't wanted to work. She had an obsession with criminals and instantly fell in love with the Joker. He didn't had to manipulate her that much cause she was already obsessed with him. He gave her attention and she liked it. I readed somewhere that she may suffers from histrionic trouble and that's probably true.
@LaPaisiblePetiteGnomette I wish there was a genuine story to harley and joker more realistic where joker does genuinely manipulate a successful pyschiatrist but it happens over time. She breaks him out and as time goes on he appears nice to her only lashing out here and there. But as time goes on he is just abusive up to MAD LOVE where he throws her out a building. I would live as her once brilliant mind became more obsessed but not simply out of live but out of necessity. She gave up her whole life for this man and she can't go back. She lives in denial that he cares about her and blames batman for getting in the way. After mad love she would join the Gotham girls ivy and catwoman and become FRIENDS with ivy NOT LESBIANS (don't know why girls gotta always be lesbos for no reason) she would eventually get with deadshot and joker kills him and tortures harley for it but her will and determination to be more than jokers pawn is what pulls her through but the perfect harley quinn story doesn't exist. Sadly
Exemple of a villain becoming a great anti-hero: Venom, because he always tried to destroy spider man and only spider man, the bro saved people because he thought that he was the hero on the story. Harley is a menace to everyone
The problem is when you overemphasize a minor character and try to make them grander than they actually are. Harley Quinn shouldn’t be able to take on Nightwing or Batman. She’s Harley Quinn not the Joker. Not every character needs to be this secret badass who is actually really, really powerful and has a heart of gold. She’s a crazy person who has an obsession with clowns. That’s what makes her Harley Quinn. And she’s a VILLAIN.
Well to be fair harley is actually stronger than joker physically, she's a professional acrobatic so whoever joker can fight she should be able to as well, its just that joker comes up with better plans and he has a ton of different machines and gadgets as well.
Why is it that they don't want to acknowledge the shit Harley has done, Suicide squad game just skips over it, birds of prey just had her break up w Joker and everythings fine and dandy... Like bro have her face her demons first.
Fucking Injustice after she helped murder millions of people. And the movie makes it worse since all she cares about is "revenge" for the Joker. God that movie pissed me off
But in *"Birds of Prey"* she spent the movie running from people gunning for her now that she isn't under Joker's protection anymore, which made her realize how badly she had treated people in general just because she could... Cassandra was her morality pet, and Harley almost selling her out to Black Mask was her rock-bottom. She then faced her demons and took on Roman Sionis with her newly made allies and redeemed some of the shitty stuff she had done over the years. I'm not a big fan of that movie, but Margot Robbie as Harley Quinn had a pretty good arc in the DCEU, it was fun to have one live action Harley in the movies, and at the same time having proto-Harley in the TV show *Gotham* (Ecco, who showed up in season 4 & 5, in which Francesca Root-Dodson plays a fantastic version of "evil Harley" up till the last episode in 2019)...
Wonder Woman got 2 solo movies, a major role in BvS, a leading role 4 hour epic. And a whole other version of the same 4 hour epic. I think she’s doing fine.
Jesus Christ died for your sins on the cross. Repent and believe in him or you will be separated from God The Father for all eternity and face hell forever, for all eternity, never ending
Deadpool for example isn’t annoying because he’s clever, witty, and ofc the 4th wall- Harley just gives off the impression she’s trying too hard when she’s written badly, and those writers are literally trying too hard to make her cool or funny or whatever it may be.
@@ultraviolet540 The problem with Harley Quinn is DC keeps trying to redeem her and turn her into an anti hero. Harley Quinn isn't an anti hero she's a villain. I mean she willingly murdered children in the comics and Arkhamverse. She did it for laughs that's not something you can be redeemed for. At least when Anakin killed the Younglings he felt remorse. Harley did it with a smile on her face. That's just plain evil. Harley Quinn is just as bad as Joker these days.
@@callmejacob3234 I remember one comic where she helped distribute handheld-consoles that were rigged to explode, and she did this on christmas. She succeded, by the way, killing hundreds if not thousands. I also dislike how they try and make her wiser than she looks. In injustice, she was the one who brough batman to his senses during a tense moment, and I was like "wtf!?". I know she used to be a psychologist, but this is too much and they should stop trying to glorify her at the cost of dumbifying smarter characters. Like you said, she is a straight up villain. Its ok if she ends up working together here and there because it also fits her own agenda, but not because of the "goodness of her heart". People claim she only did bad things because of her obsession with the joker, as if it excused all the murders and torture she did at his side. She is a psycho, not an anti-hero like DC has been trying to push her as.
@@ineedit1772 the same people who buy her comics over wonder womans The same people who cosplay as her Tge same people watched her show enough for it to get renewed every season and even get a spin off
And why great writers like Dwayne McDuffie and Gene L. Coon are still remembered as the cream of the crop because they didn’t taint their body of work with poor creative choices plus the ones who does the real heavy lifting in giving the shows that extra special quality.
My issue is not just Harley and the free pass she gets as some innocent Joker Groupie. It’s how she infects all of DC with BS like the Suicide Squad with Harley, Deadshot, Boomer, King Shark as the core roster being any threat to the Justice League. Instead of some government sanctioned Justice League of America led by Captain Atom.
I'm absolutely SICK of this character. I still remember in 2019 when we got that birds of prey film, the harley quinn cartoon, and I also saw an advertisement for another animated harley quinn cartoon at the time and I was thinking "holy shit, do you think that enough?" Also, can't forget about that big game Multiversus, a game that had joker nowhere to be found, but Harley? Yeah make her DC character #4, why not? The sad part is that it's not even close to the only time I've seen Harley not only being pushed over characters like the joker, but characters like the flash and green lantern as the fourth most important DC character. You know, there was a time when I got really annoyed with Pokémon fans for overly hating on Charizard because "he's too overrated" by thinking "no, he's not, Pokémon's just pushing him a lot, it's not that bad", only to remember Harley Quinn and going "oh wait, maybe they have a point". I am so done with this character, like she's not a terrible character or anything, but there's like one story that they tell with her and they have told it a million times. It seems to me she's like the fourth most popular DC character at this point only behind Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman, and even then she gets more representation than some of them. I don't get it DC, you have so many amazing female superheroes and even super villains like Raven, Starfire, Hawkgirl, Black Canary, Wonder Woman, ZATANNA! But no, the one you wanna push is the one with 0 superpowers and the one whose story has been told to death because it makes 40-year-old Facebook moms gitty. Even the other villain that's been used because of her, Poison Ivy, who actually is a good character, she's only ever used as harley quinn's girlfriend, and the eco terrorist personality she had that's a reflection on Batman's obsession with justice is lost just so we can have her be Harley's girlfriend. Speaking of which, Batman's rogues gallery is like the most interesting in comic book history, not only because they're unique, different, and memorable, but they are all reflections of Batman's identity in some way shape and form, but all we ever seem to get from them now is Harley Quinn, who not only has the least connections to Batman, but in the stories where she is the villa8n is just Joker 2.0, So instead of getting a lot of cool stories with Scarecrow and Two-Face, we have to constantly get Harley Quinn stories ad-nauseam.
Harley basically gets to star in everything (even stories where she ain't even the official Protagonist) like Injustice, DC Superhero Girls, Suicide Squad, and the like, but Dick can't even get his own movie or anything?
@@SabeNo-rh7mb I know and whenever he’s in animated movies they always do him dirty and make him break his arm. The only source of media he was done right was TBAS, Teen Titans, and Young Justice
I've always preferred Harly Quinn with Joker. And no not because of the enjoyment of abusive relationship (something the fangirls call you out on). I just preferred her as a psycho and a villain. A bad guy. That's it. I've just honestly never really was into villains becoming Anti-heroes due to popularity from fans with maybe the exception of Venom.
Eh it’s a gray area. I preferred her with the Joker too but mainly because it was interesting seeing this woman Batman believed could be reformed, but she just kept falling for the same pitfall. I think her animated take is still the best take since her arc is completed. Falls for the wrong guy, almost leaves him, falls for him again after he clearly doesn’t value her the same way (through abuse, and abandonment by making her a patsy numerous times), finally Joker goes too far with Harley on board, Joker dies and Harley is presumed dead but ended up being alive and just moves on becoming a grandmother. Arc over. Not much else has been as interesting.
Honestly, I prefer her with Joker too. At least with him, the writers acknowledge the toxic parts. When it comes to HarleyxIvy though, the writers think it's suddenly okay to ignore their toxicity or try to justify it, which is pretty hypocritical.
She’s their golden goose. Not just popular with men because she’s hot, but she’s also single-handedly built up the woman’s audience to be massive compared to how it was before, even becoming massively popular with little girls who absolutely shouldn’t be watching most of the content she’s from. As a result they’re dumbing her down, making her more appealing to the female audience: breaking up with the joker, becoming comic relief, hiding the sexuality of the character, they’re going hard trying to make her strong and independent when by definition Harley isn’t independent. They’re changing and warping the character so they can continue to overuse her as their cash cow. They need to stop if they care about the integrity of the character but they never will while she makes that much money, and she’s essential to appeal to the female market.
Its so fucking stupid because Wonder Woman is literally RIGHT THERE Shes hot so she appeals to men, shes strong and independent to appeal to women, she has good morals and a code which is good for children and most importantly, shes a major fucking character I dont understand why DC are not pushing her instead
@@jojoman4223 You act like all men care about is hotness in a character, we can also like a woman's personality and traits. Sexiness helps but it doesn't make a character automatically good.
Why shouldn't they? She's easily in the top 3 female DC characters. Maybe even number 1 now. She's marketable becaue she's a cute girl that does crazy things, there's nothing more to it. I dunno, maybe the Suicide Squad isekai will change people's negative opinion on her, she's clearly a major player there.
Green Lantern did have an animated series. It was called Green Lanter: the Animated Series. It wasnt bad actually. However, as a superman fan, the fact that Wonder Woman has received almost zero projects in this time is astounding. No animated shows, not even a last century video game. Shocking.
Because everyone that wonders how to write it winds up doing as bad as the 1948-1958 Kanigher run...which is where Bruce Timm and co got the idea for their iteration of Wonder Woman...and only minorly alluded to the Perez, Byrne and Rucka Runs while also implying maybe some Carter Canon+ the original Marston run. Oddly enough, Butch Luckich actually did have an idea that was going to make sense, but got cobbled into the JSA Tomorrowverse movie...so good idea, too bad that we'll only ever see what could have been on one of her JSA missions though. It's also kinda too bad that the Tomorroverse only has ten movies...an eleventh might have been nice...I mean a Wonder Woman movie set in WW2 would have done well you get the joke for this character.
@@animationcentral.3799 Harley is the strongest subcategory of Batman to the point that it's now her own category...I'd rather Selina if we're marketing "villains" over the main hero...at least Selina's stories are actually is something that is still firmly within the Detective Comics vein...she's the classic Femme Fatale who teaches geography and history on the weekend.
@@HarlEyQuiNN80085 literally yes. do you forget that she just becomes a good guy no Batman forgiving her of her sins just poof she’s a good guy now because she broke up with joker she doesn’t even feel guilty for all the bad stuff she did no redemption arc just went from villain to hero with a snap of someone’s fingers
@@ineedit1772 𝙃𝙖𝙧𝙡𝙚𝙮 𝙌𝙪𝙞𝙣𝙣: I think you're forgetting something redemption arc was spurred on by a genuinely shocking DC character: the Reverse-Flash. Though most Reverse-Flash characters are considered some of the most evil villains in the DC Universe, the third Reverse-Flash, Daniel West, had a redemption story of his own. Batman offered me a pardon in exchange for helping him track down the Joker after he had stolen a nuclear bomb. [ And writers are allowed to do whatever they want.With the story is just your opinion if you like or not]
@@HarlEyQuiNN80085 Daniel west was a killer sure but he wanted to save himself and his sister from there abusive father so his redemption story is actually believable he thought he was a good guy but then realized what he did was wrong and sacrificed himself to save lives. Harley murdered innocent people for love and attention from joker and didn’t bat an eye to killing children. One killed people to take their speed to go back in time and kill his abusive father felt guilty for what he did and had a character arc, the other person killed people for attention and once her redemption arc happened no one ever told her she was a bad person everyone kinda just said water under the bridge at least in the Harley Quinn show nightwing was always on her ass about being a monster who just suddenly became the bat family leader until she somehow killed him
How about before nightwing's death, the batfamily couldn't fight without their gear 😂, batman is a ninja, he trained all of them yet harley in this show is somehow better in hand to hand combat 🤦♂️, how about poison ivy soloing the legion of doom in a small room.
@TheShockVox The Harley Quinn show: written by people who didn't even read or pick up a single comic involving the bat family That's how I describe how the characters were handled in the recent seasons of the show Now they have Oracle Barbara Gordon working alongside the Gotham City sirens rather than forming the birds of prey.
You got a full Harley Quinn? Might need to take her to get checked in case it’s serious. In all seriousness, I think DC and WB have overblown her importance with SS:KTJL being the absolute nadir of this aggressive Hollywood Hogan of n.W.o push where you’re just sick of having them hog the spotlight while characters like half of the DC Universe getting table scraps.
Alas, it’s precisely them that James Gunn and the Warners are leaving behind. So yes, the new cinematic universe (I’m so sick of this word) will begin with Harley, Waller, Peacemaker and other clowns from the Suicide Squad.
I love harley but even i've been saying she's been in way too much DC properties. You also pretty much summed up how i feel about the Harley Quinn show. I liked the first 2 seasons but later on i just couldnt. I've also disliked that injustice Harley can join the good guys as if she didnt help nuke a city and Bats let her be part of her team. Imagine your former friend working with the person who helped nuke your city and also killed your wife and unborn child.
Yeah that was crazy to me. I never played the injustice games, but I'm aware of the story. From what I've seen in the comic adaptions, Harley practically never gets called out for her part in nuking Metropolis. It was only until the injustice 2 comic where she got some karma for her actions in the form of Martha and Ra's. To me, Harley only went on a path of redemption because she had to, not because she wanted to.
Not a fan of how her design has evolved either. She barely even has a clown theme anymore, much less a harlequin. She's just a generic hot punk girl now.
I find it ironic how Jinx from League of Legends was originally a Harley knock off, but ever since Arcane came out it seems like DC's been trying to rip Jinx's design and personality onto Harley but fail horribly.
^^ You can say, 'Don't drag social movements into this' as much as you want, but when said social movements are the primary reason why so much modern media is awful... It's a bit relevant.
My favorite version of Harley will always be from the Lego Batman nintendo DS game. Her boss fight with the rollercoasters and her massive hammer, as well as her jester-like clothing was always so cool to me.
They keep trying to make her more like Deadpool, but she has no motivation. Deadpool wants to be a hero but thinks lower of himself because of his past. His self-hate and humor alienate him from other heroes and sometimes less moral heroes use it to take advantage of him. Harley's main theme is discovering herself after the Joker but narratively there is no consistent want. The people she meets usually can defend themselves pretty good unlike Deadpool's daughter. Each story she can go form wanting to be a hero, antihero, civilian, anti-villain, villain or move around the scale. Since they can't pick a direction to take her they can throw her on the wall and not worry if she sticks because people consume her for aesthetic alone. I think it would be cool if they mainly use her like a wild card like Hisoka or the phantom troupe if they give her a crew. This is so we don't know if she's gonna help the heroes, villains, or herself. This is so she's not chaotically all over the morality scale without a goal. Her motive could be to have as much fun as possible.
@@TheShockVox For me it was less try hard. I just prefer a villainous take on Harley than what we usually get today where they pass by it. Also a Harley using her psychiatrist skills rather than just saying she's one and don't do anything with it.
A Gotham City Sirens movie actually was supposed to be a thing where Black Mask was supposed to be a villain but then it got canceled for a Jared Leto joker & Harley movie which then got canceled for the birds of prey movie
Yeah I hope the obsession with Harley dies down. So that's why I started to dislike her after breaking up with Joker. There's no character development over her break up or anything. With her being that obsessive with the Joker and being so heartbroken that Joker died in the Arkham series, they've should've not included Joker in suicide squad, but not only that, he looks terrible anyway and instead have her deal with being away from Joker for a time to realize that he really wasn't good for her. And instead, her new character arch could be with siding with Superman's way of dealing with things since in one comic, he actually kills Joker to prove a point to Batman, which is actually what Joker's point was too ironically. That way she could still have somewhat of a vendetta against Batman to keep things interesting but still be a Deadpool-ish character. But I guess it really is just all over the place and they make her seem like some modern woman who just got tired of her boyfriend and wanted something new lol! And that's just a boring unhealthy character. Makes her seem like a villain still because that would be a psychopathic villainous mindset that no one wants to root for. Not even for a neutral character. So there's a lot of problems with it when I gotta admit, it could've worked, and really well if they gave it time and used the story of Superman killing Joker or another one of Batman's villains to prove him a point. Could even be Ra's Al Ghul that dies by Superman.
Gotham Knights of all things showed us what a good Post-Joker Harley could look like if they stop trying to force her into a Deadpool role that Lobe and Ambush Bug could easily fill. A psychiatrist who uses her influence for villainy and there’s a world of ideas one can explore with that Harley by remembering what her former profession was.
My biggest issue with the B&H movie is that isn’t just a straight up rip off of the episode, Harlequinade from BTAS. Which is a fantastic episode, and better than this movie in every way
Wanna hear the uncomfortable truth that fans aren’t willing to admit... She isn’t a good character on her own or in the spotlight. There are main characters and then there are support characters. Harley is and will always be a support character. She only ever works best as Jokers Robin as she is most able to be utilized there. Both as a character and as a stepping stone for the main characters (most often Batman and Joker) She on her own doesn’t work. Period. People will say otherwise but truthfully as a story writer (amateur I’ll admit but I know all the fundamentals and even a good grasp on advanced) this is how characters are. She isn’t good or done well on her own or in her own story.
@@animezilla4486 millions of kids that wouldn’t think like this in reality about someone like Harley only disagree because they have no experience with someone that was in an abusive relationship and willingly chose to stay around so that said abusive crazy clown could kill a ton of innocent people for no reason
@@animezilla4486 well millions of people are wrong then... Also bold of you to act like there are MILLIONS of Harley Quinn fans. Maybe general DC fans but for one character? No...
And that's nothing bad. Joker is considered to be one of the most popular villains ever and on his own he doesn't work either. (excluding the 2019 movie, but that's a different story) I wish writers realized this sometimes.
She is edgy and politically correct in her relationship with Ivy. That's all. Never was a fan of her as a some anti-hero BS (never was a fan of that type of characters anyway). She deserve no place in BatFam. It shouldn't be even a question. She should try to became a normal citizen again after her rehabilitation would end (for me that shouldn't be even possible given what she had done, but I can accept that one "going easy on her"). That is the best part of Batman & Harley Quinn movie. I really like the scene when Harley shows Dick her rejected job papers. I feel kinda sad for her. That should be the main theme of her character - "How a mad love with insane psycho criminal can drive a good person into becoming another one and how it destroys your life in a society", not "Even though you killed many people, we forgive you because it was Joker's fault", that is such BS. Never was a fan of her and Ivy relationship. As a friends in her transitional period between beig Joker's sidekick and full rehabilitation - sure, but not romanticaly. It undermines Ivy's character, because push for Harley makes Ivy simply her love interest, removing her traits that made her very interesting in the first place and leaves Batman without a recognizable Batman female villain. Wonder Women is not advertised at all and it is a huge shame, because she should be the ideal women, not only in DC, but in all of the comics.
Not to mention ever since the writers paired Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy together, they willingly ignore the toxic aspects of their relationship. Poison Ivy was a toxic, manipulative friend to Harley Quinn, willing to push her under the bus whenever she became inconvinient or didn't act the way she wanted, but the writers who ship them willingly ignore Ivy's misanthropic traits.
@@Isabelle-cb3ro Yeah, she was immoral, seductive villain for Bruce, but now she became Harley's romantic interest and she doesn't do much more essentially.
@@GM-gb1eu I personally think seasons 1 and 2 of Harvey quinn were fine and fairly interesting BECAUSE she was still portrayed as a villain. A kind of pathetic villain underdog, but still a villain. The show didn't try to make her into some hero. I liked that they decided to have the story centre around harely finding herself as a villain. It was an interesting take on Harley. Season 3 came around and did the thing they always do with Harley, make her a hero. What makes this worse is that season 3 (and 4) probe poison ivy alone shows how more interesting and a compelling mc than her. They try to redeem her whilst simultaneously make her a bad girlfriend. Then season 4 came around and at that point, I don't think the show knows what it wants to be and neither does harley. The identity crisis was done because in season 3 and now they were doing it again in season 4. All of the interesting side characters were gone, nightwing was hoed over beyond belief, the joker (who was actually kinda nice in season 3) was hoed over, everything and nothing happened this season and poison ivy's personality shift was so out of character
Writers seem to be in this weird paradox where Harley is written as strong role model for women and a surviver of abuse, while also infantilising her as a poor, helpless victim with no control over her actions. She’s shown as a silly harmless goof… except when they are showing us how she’s still an evil and crazy killer, but because she’s in a lesbian relationship she has to be a paragon for LGBT rights and her relationship with Ivy is always soft and perfect. She’s everything and she’s nothing. It’s beyond confusing.
Old Harley: "I'm severely mentally ill." New Harley: "I'm not your average gurl XD." They've oversaturated her in media appearances while removing her from the Joker. Which makes her significantly less of a compelling, and tragic character overall. They've forgotten she's supposed to be just as insane as The Joker which is why I'm actually more excited for Gaga's take on the character over Robbie's.
Unlike animated Harley, comic Harley has pretty much never had a consistent personality cause writers not named Paul Dini don’t know what to do with her. Sometimes she’s a quirky Deadpool type jokey character, or she’s a super serious badass anti hero who looks like a clown, or at her worst she’s a gross out nasty hyper sexual crazy girl who hits on anything with a pulse.
Poison Ivy gave harley a shot that basically gave her peak level human strength and made her stronger than most humans, increased her agility and made her immune to toxins. With this, she’s an acrobat yes so she already had a point in the fighting category. I personally think and from what we’ve seen in comics Harleys fighting just improved over time especially considering some of the people she hangs out around (ex. catwoman) who is trained in martial arts, i don’t doubt she got lessons or picked stuff up, and ivys shot definitely gave her an advantage over most humans already.
@@angiequinn9799 Fair enough. The big problem with that since the last few years are the writers' ignorance towards each other and editors slacking on keeping track of what happens in one story verus the next; especially DC as they've done a handful of Crisises to fix their continuity problems each time it buggers up. Knowing how current DC writers are, I doubt they were thinking of that when they had her punching well above her weight class. There's only so much suspension of disbelief one can have before it steers into absurdity and that includes Babel Tower Batman having contingency plans for everything because that story gave birth to the belief that Batman can clap everyone with prep time. The same Batman who can't even eat the sandwiches Alfred makes for him.
I actually always wanted a comedic animated spin-off about Killer Moth pulling odd-jobs for the villains of Gotham. Seeing him constantly having to punch up in a city that puts him through the wringer always seemed like he'd make for a perfect center of slapstick shenanigans.
Harley feels so mishandled. She could have been reformed and then the next step of her character could have been learning that while she had done absolutely horrendous things in the past, she could do her best to change for the better. That's very broad, but that's really all they needed to do with her character.
Or maybe just let her be a villain for the rest of her life not everyone needs to be redeemed not every villain has to have a redemption arc she doesn't need to become a "misunderstood villain" who ends up turning into an "antihero" these troupes are getting old and I think her being a villain suits her better villains like harley and the joker they really don't deserve redemption for the shit they have done they should stay the way they are and suffer for there consequences Harley is literally bat shit crazy she's mentally sick I don't want her to welcomed by the heroes in the story just because she has a change of heart nothing would erase on what she has done it would be strange for a psychopathic villain to change she's has never been a "misunderstood villain" that they are trying to portray her to be so it's really weird for them to use that troupe on her personally I never liked Harley I just don't know what is about her that disgusts me
@@animezilla4486 Seasons 2 3 and 4 ruin Batman and the bat family. They ruined a perfectly good plot with Harley Quinn becoming Bruce's psychiatrist at the end of season 3 yet their characters do not interact for the entirety of 4 The bat family are incompetent Fighters and don't really seem to have nearly as much as the same training as Batman like they do in most other versions This version of the bat family relies more on their gadgets as opposed to their trained martial arts abilities due to being trained by Batman Harley Quinn somehow is somehow able to take on Nightwing and kill him, which doesn't make any sense.
They've been riding the entire Suicide Sqaud. The fact that there's more Suicide Squad related media than Justice League content since 2016 is unacceptable.
Harley stopped being Harley in the comics from New52 and in mainstream media from 2016. The animated series is pure shit from season 1 where basically any character got a bad characterization and Harley got not only plot armor but plot strenght where she became such a good fighter that was able to take down villains and heroes far better than her (seems to read Tom King's run where Catwoman was able to beat Talia al Ghul in a duel). DC from New52 going forward wanted from Harley to be their own version of Deadpool plus an empowered female character but they basically ruined her in the process. You want an antihero of sorts that could be used for a lot of wacky scenarios, with a good sense of humor and that is partially associated with Batman? Use Creeper. While for the empored female character Harley Quinn was supposed to be a cautionary tale, the best example of what a woman SHOULDN'T be. One of the very few "new" good cautionary tales and DC fucked it up. P.S. her relationship with Poison Ivy doesn't make any sense for both of them and her "new" costume is an extreme downgrade from the original
Ain’t no way in hell did Harley a insane person with a no fighting skills beating the daughter of Ra’s al ghul leader of the league of assassins god i hate Harley now
Thank you! This is exactly what I've felt since New 52 debuted! "Hurr durr, she needs a new origin, throw her in a vat of chemicals!" It's lazy writing. Then, to add insult to injury, you've got that piss poor 2016 movie, which made her feel one short step away from "written and directed by Rob Zombie".
Disagree with everything you just said first of all the animated series was the best thing that ever happened to that character it lasted for four season which tells you how popular it is. The new 52 did not ruin the character. Also that line of yours "Harley Quinn supposed to be a cautionary tale of what woman is not supposed to be"doesn't make any sense nobody have said they want to be like her
@@animezilla4486 Popular and good aren't synonimous anyway how many crappy Warner Bros series have reached multiple seasons even if they were despised by the fans? Your point is that if the Harley Quinn Animated Series has been aired for 4 seasons then it's good and popular but Batwoman has been aired for 3 and received an enormous backlash since day 1, Velma has received now her second season and will get an halloween special even if everyone despises that show. Will you tell me that Big Mouth on Netflix is a good show when EVERYBODY makes fun of Netflix for cancelling good or promising animated series (like Inside Job) but keep renewing Big Mouth for another season? The New52 completely butchered the character, her characterization was completely changed for the reasons i've explained in the first comment. A cautionary tale tells you what could happen if you behave in a certain way, "the boy who cried wolf" is a cautionary tale for example. The point is precisely that nobody wants to be like her, nobody should be in a toxic relationship like the one Harley has with Joker BUT thanks to the New52 this has been completely changed. Now your line about "nobody have said they want to be like her" is utterly false, how many girls have you seen that after Suicide Squad said that they wanted their relationship to be like Harley and Joker? Or how many people have done a cosplay of the character after 2016? The character, thanks to the New52 and the horrible depictions in other media she had in recent years isn't liked at all: - Batman and Harley Quinn was the biggest DC animated flop when it was released - Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey was the biggest CBM bomb of that decade - The Suicide Squad (the James Gunn's one) bombed - SSKTJL, bombed game panned by everyone and Harley's depiction was one of the biggest complaints everyone had: from the complete overhaul of Arkham Harley's characterization to the Batman scene and the creepy interactions with a little kid version of Poison Ivy.
I used to love Harley. Precisely since before the New 52. It was all downhill from there. It feels like no one gets her. Even her having bleached skin feels like a miss. She was an asset in BtAS because she had unbleached skin. I unfairly tend to link the current Harley Quinn problem with the casting of Tara Strong as pretty much the go to voice of Harley. She tends to voice the character in a way that often sounds like a flanderization impression of the character, always pretty much being at a 10 or 8 in energy but none of the nuances of Arleen Sorkin’s take on Harley. And that kinda became how Harley is as a result in most media. So unfortunately Tara Strong Harley became the face, or voice, of Harley over saturation and misrepresentation to me. Shout out to Hynden Walch for being a better Harley after Arleen (for examples: 2004’s The Batman show, Batman Assault on Arkham, Flashpoint Paradox, and Apocalypse War). She’s even able to do that squee Arleen could do as Harley. They should’ve cast Starfire over Raven on this one.
Tara Strong is a talented VA, but her Harley voice has always sounded more like Timmy Turner with a Brooklyn accent. She’s not awful but I don’t know why she’s always the go to.
@@snowbunnie1113she’s more of a name. Despite my distaste for her Harley, she does have talent in other roles. But more than that, she knows how to play the game more. She’s better at promoting herself, plays the social media game well, and playing into her sex appeal hasn’t hurt her much either. For example while I think Hynden is a better talent for the role, she actually goes out of her way to downplay herself. She avoids pictures being taken of her if she can, does very little, if any, con appearances. Plus sometimes casting directors just don’t want to go through auditioning so they have a go to. It’s part of why some many superhero characters have the same voices. Good example is Charlie Schlatter. Dude voices The Flash more than anybody. Now there’s like 20 people in the LA voice acting scene that I think would fit the character better, but he’s been proven. So he’s likely a go to. Might be the same for Tara.
Only the DCAU Quinn can be redeemed imo, you can make a case that she's broken. She's pure evil in most of the comics, killed children. Her crimes in the dcau is nowhere near as bad as other iterations. Plus her Redemption feels forced, Batman is always in conflict with Jason even when he stopped killing allowing someone like Harley into the bat family feels hypocritical.
Even that suicide squad anime didn't came yet i can expect that harley queen gonna had more screen time than the rest of the characters that clear from the trailer
And the thing is DC and WB plan on doing more anime with the DC characters for the next couple of years Which sort of reminds me of what Marvel was doing a decade ago with their Marvel anime initiative and partnership with Studio MadHouse animation.
I feel like that has to do with the fact that Harley Quinn is being portrayed as a hero or antihero. They can force her into more stuff that way. Joker is a villain, they can usually only put him in villainous roles.
she's not even a hero bro. tired of DC pushing villains and anti heroes. yes they have their place, but it shouldn't be over the heroes that made DC what it is
I see people complain about how much Batman is in media, I can understand that, but he's literally part of the big 3. But I feel like we see more Harley than we see Superman and Wonder Woman. I remember liking Harley growing up, nowadays I roll my eyes whenever she shows up in something.
Here are some other problems I have with Harley beyond just oversaturation, though they are tied into and compounded by oversaturation. 1 She just doesn't stand on her own. Joker's Girlfriend/victim, Ivy's Girlfriend, the wacky mascot of Task Force X, or now the Bat Family. Her whole gimmick comes from her time with the Joker, or amounts to a baseball bat and a handgun. Dick, Barbara, Jason, Jean Paul Valley, all have been able to reinterpret their skills honed with the Bat Family or outright reinvent themselves to carry their own stories or find a variety of team dynamics. Other Gotham villains can stand proud as their own characters. But Harley is not one of those, which doesn't mean she can't be put to decent narrative use, but it does mean you can't use her as a leading lady in anything big. 2 It feels like the same stories repeated. The last time they took a new direction for her that worked, she was put on Task Force X. And this wouldn't be a problem without overuse, or if the general formula was more fun and suited to a leading character. But she feels stagnant or out of place with the oversaturation. Personally, I'd try shuffling her back to civilian life as supporting cast for her to really grow and change. Maybe an orderly or janitor of a good asylum. Sure, reclaiming her profession as a psychologist or therapist would be the peak of her getting past her villainous life, but even Arkham Asylum would have a hard time accepting that, let alone a place that actually helps people and follows professional standards. 3 They overstate her capability and relevance. I can't deal with the Harley show because beyond disrespecting actual Superheroes for cheap yucks, the idea of Darkseid showing any interest in Harley is laughable in a bad way. And the idea that he'd actually consider replacing Granny Goodness is nonsense. Jokes still have to make sense. The extent of her capabilities come from being unpredictable, whatever technical skill with fists and firearms she's gathered along the way, having a blunt force object, and a sidearm which might be oversized. Oh, and maybe some leftover Joker or Joker esque offense gadgets.
Well, prototypes from comics are quite often adjusted to fit film versions: the current Superman from comics is redrawn from the 1978 film, and Iron Man is already indistinguishable from Downey Jr. P.S: Do you also think Margot Robbie is an overrated actress who became famous thanks to her attractive appearance?
A symptom of Mary Sue writing is that the universe bends over backwards to make the Mary Sue appear better than she is. In other words: tearing down much beloved characters to show off how cool this new character is. Reflect on this as you see Harley get or do something she has no right doing.
I never understood why they feel the need to make copies of original characters. Harley is just a female joker but worse. Batwoman is just a female batman but worse, and so on. If it was up to me, i would delete all sidekicks, they drag down the story anyway.
harley quinn should never be an anti hero. she works well in her original part as Joker’s sidekick/lover. Instead of having her develop into being a better person, it would be FAR more interesting if it was Batman trying to give her help and have her teeter between leaving Joker and being good, but choose to be bad and stay with Joker anyway. arkham/og harley > modern harley quinn
With all due respect, that wouldn’t be more interesting as her entire characterization would be stuck in a loop. It would just be “you should become good.” “nah, I’d prefer to be evil.” There would be zero direction for her to go with her character and make readers ask “why should I care about this character, we already know she won’t turn good.” You can say you prefer her to be a sidekick because they haven’t done enough to prove she can stand by herself, but saying doing nothing with a character would be more interesting than something is a hot take.
@@phabiorules dawg some characters don’t need that much development to be good. Look at the Joker, he barely develops as a character aside from his descent into madness, and he’s the second greatest villain of all time.
It leaves a bad taste in my mouth I was all for her breaking off of the joker but there’s a weird attempt at redemption. They try and brush her crimes under the rug because she was only doing it because of joker but that’s the definition of an ACCOMPLICE 🗣️🗣️🗣️ She isn’t a girlboss and shouldn’t be built up as a role model for young women Keep her in the S-squad with the rest of the scum of the earth and king shark 😂
Actually, keep her out of the S-Squad because her being on it defeats the whole team’s concept with her plot armour. Do what Gotham Knights did and have her take up that psychiatrist job again; we know DC Comics don’t have a high opinion of them anyways,
Dang he really is the most forgotten robin (bars) put that boy in a coffin but seriously tim has the title of best detective out of all robins but is never used for detective type comics just there as a sidekick in case batman needs him 😢
The people who push Harley project themselves into her and want you to accept her i.e. them as a proxy thereby. It doesn't work because Harley is always going to be a villain, just like those who keep pushing her.
I understand why Harley Quinn is used so much she’s literally one of DC’s most popular characters the issue is DC and warner brothers heavily relies on there heaviest hitters for marketing which is why we have so much Batman Media it’s actually the same with why Spiderman gets so much attention
It's becoming extremely overrated and annoying. They're trying so hard to make her the Deadpool of the DC Comics but it doesn't work. If we want a Deadpool version for DC Comics it should have been Plastic Man, or The Creeper, or Lobo their better option. People forgotten that Harley is villain and a nutjob who committed terrible crimes like Joker does. The more they keep pushing her, the less people won't give a shit about her and want the old one back if DC has the balls to do this. I hated the new version, but I always love the OG Harley Quinn which is BTAS.
The fact that they tried to turn her into a hero in the Injustice universe despite being Joker’s accomplice in the destruction of Metropolis was some major BS.
@@animezilla4486 it’s a trope that’s very annoying because they never actually face any real consequences. She never actually paid for her part in the deaths.
any universe where Jason todd is on thin ice with the batfam but harley quinn gets welcomed in loses me immediately.
and damian wayne. don't forget about that little batbastard
they push harley redemption more than jason’s it’s crazy
@@arri9869it’s so scuffed I can’t
I’m glad I’m not the only Jason Todd fan who feels this way. Shit is fucking ridiculous at this point
literally, at this point fuck her 😭
They HATE Nightwing
good he’s boring
@@animationcentral.3799 How?
@@BLUECHAOSVIIdon’t pay that things opinion no never mind
I hate how dc always disrespects Nightwing in some way. They kill him with his own stick that a less good robin (Damien) threw at him which is a super dumb death. Then in one cartoon, I think he dies so I didn't continue the movies just for that reason. Then in one of the comics, I think that Harley Quinn sexually assaulted him. Then in the show, they kill him by having a sleep walking clown kill him. Like why are fan-favorite characters hated by the creators?
@@Kyarchuu_draws Yeah i don't even think he ever had a respectable death, like i believe he got hit with his own Nightstick and then fell on a conveniently placed rock in one of the comics that came out years ago aswell.
What’s super weird is the hypocrisy around her character. She can never be seen as “The Joker’s girlfriend” because that’s degrading and romanticises abusive relationships…but she can be celebrated and marketed as “Poison Ivy’s girlfriend” (who in turn has been reduced to nothing but Harley’s girlfriend) despite the fact that relationship also started out as very manipulative.
Yeah but the difference is that at least with poison ivy they talk about their problems and are kinda cute (this depends of the writer) and the poison ivy just being Harley girlfriend I get that
🤔curious isn't it
Because GAY
The fact the she is an obsessed with Joker IS her character. It's not supposed to be good or wholesome, we as an audience are supposed to be disgusted by how Joker manipulates and abuses her, and how she does absolutely atrocious things for him because she's madly in love. She is either a tragic character with a proper ark of redemption (like they did in 2004 The Batman series, if my memory serves me right) with enough levity in the storytelling not to make it too grim, or she's just an irredeemable psycho maniac, like in Arkham series.
Because wokeism
I've grown tired of her romance with Poison Ivy as well. Poison Ivy is a character with so much potential, and is just held back massively as "Harley Quinn's girlfriend". Ivy is a misanthrope and downright crazy most of the time, mostly lacks empathy for her fellow humans, so she's meant to be this powerful, lonesome, uncaring plant lady who used her intellect and sex appeal (and I mean come on, she's hot as hell, that's literally part of her character) to manipulate people her way. Instead, most of the time she's just a shallow serial killer as part of someone else's plans, or just the "voice of reason" in her dynamic with Harley Quinn. Ivy isn't a good guy, there's been great depictions of her becoming more empathetic, and Batman seeing the good side of her, but she's still a mass-murdering psycho. I understand that Harley and Ivy are both "developed" being together, but keeping them together has stunted them both, and quite frankly, it's not a good look for a lesbian relationship when it's really toxic like that.
That's exactly what I think, Ivy is the kind to seduce men and women to manipulate them but not to fall in love with them.
She see them as dvmb cause she cheats in seduction by using her pheromones. She's like a cat playing with mouses.
She's very intelligent, misanthropic and the only thing she likes is nature. There's some iteration where she showed interest to Batman bc he's stoic, intelligent, lonesome and heroic and she asked him to join his force to her but he declined. She's in a way a great anti-hero.
Idk if there's an iteration where she's a politician but damn it would be great to see this eco-terrorist kickas some corrupted fake ecologists politicians.
The reason why Ivy tried to convince Harley to dump the Joker was bc she couldn't imagine herself being in infatuation with someone who treats her like a dog, cause she is fully independent.
She was her friend, they had a Thelma and Louise dynamic, no more. Ivy being with such an unserious girl like Harley is just so antithetical.
Harley was imagined as a codependent character to the Joker, she was not a good girl anymore and that's was great like this cause she developed another facet of the joker. Not every character needs to "evolve" or empower themselves.
@@LaPaisiblePetiteGnomette I'm glad to find someone who agrees! The only part I think is difficult to justify consistently is her being an "anti-hero". She's a straight up villain, through and through, no matter her motive. I think her becoming an anti-hero with Harley's help is cool sometimes, but often leads to her character going stale. I did like Batman showing compassion and care for Ivy, which helped her understand that fighting alone will achieve nothing, but I doubt the comic creators I gonna want to push the "strong, independent woman" type helped by a billionaire man.
Batman is the antithesis and the "cure" to all of his villains, and I think the creators in DC forget that A LOT. Ivy isn't a reasonable, rational person, that's her biggest character flaw, and that's what gets in the way most of the time, she's too narcissistic and hateful to accept that her methods and her ways are wrong. To suddenly have her change personality entirely when she gets all lovey with Harley is strange. I get the Harley Quinn show is a parody of Batman, but I feel that it's defined Ivy too much and too differently from who she is, or should be, as a character.
And I absolutely agree with your Thelma and Louise comparison too. Ivy is the kind of gal-pal girlfriend to Harley, it wasn't really romantic at all early on, and I think the romantic side of their dynamic came from the fan-service-y fetishizing of their relationship, which started in the Batman Animated Series, and DC noted how they could utilise the fan perception.
@@kibikiwi175 Yeah, when I said that's she's an anti-hero I meant that she has good intentions bc she wants to save the environment but she's too cold to care about the human's fate.
You're right, she's not rational, she is wild and dangerous as "mother nature".
I don't like when villains like Harley or Ivy works with Batman, I don't get why all vilains need to become nice guys, it's too weird.
I also don't like the introduction of punchline, she's so unoriginal and looks too much like Neo-Joker.
Also yep, Harlivy is just a weird fan-service thing, not empowerment or anything else.
Harley helped the joker torture jason todd for a whole year, and knew joker was gonna kill children and sow the bodies together for a joke on the parents so the kids would be returned in "one piece" then shes supposed to be a good guy in suicide squad?
Dont forget her role in the batgirl DLC's story. She basically convinced a grieving man to off himself. Arkham harley is honestly a horrible person
Honestly, these characters don't even sound fun anymore. :(
I want Batman when I watch Batman, not Junji Ito.
@@emeryltekutsu4357thats another problem with modern batman comics, the joker nowdays is just a cheap way to draw torture porn just to shock the viewer with each writter trying to out-shock the last one
Batman's moral code is an important part of the character but when you make a character so degenerate that does such things like the joker it just makes batman look like a dick who dont care
Oh boohoo I bet you people support Batman an you don’t even know why that’s hypocritical which is both sad and hilarious
This is one f’d up version of Harley Quinn I’ll give you that
Honestly, harley has gotten off way too easy. She has done unredeemable stuff. Just because she has trauma, that doesn't mean she gets a pass for doing terrible stuff.
Bro injustice harley is the very thing you're describing. And Batman ain't shit for letting her join his side. Even in the animated film he wasn't shit telling sups he doesn't get off that easy
I fucking hate injustice harley for that reason despite her assisting nuking a city with the joker she gets off waaaaayyyyyy too easily and is redeemed to be moraly righteous in injustice 2 gross
Just plea insanity and you’ll get off Scott free. Thats how Vince Li got away without facing any punishment despite commit the most sickly heinous act to Tim McLean. Harley Quinn can kill trillions and just plea insanity and change her name and boom, everything’s fine and dandy.
@@ulfberht4431I mean isn’t that literally what the Arkham inmates or like the joker say to get out from the death sentence 💀
ESPECIALLY Arkham Harley. Can't stand how she's just suddenly accepted and gets a pass
She’s been so flanderized. They removed so much of the tragedy behind her, and that’s why I really liked the 3-issue miniseries Harleen: because it remembered that she’s not just a quirky character for the masses.
Flanderised and twisted into something she’s not. A Deadpool knockoff and not a Joe Kelly one either.
@@rayvenkman2087Ty 🙏
@@rayvenkman2087. Deadpool+mainstream=uphill battle for rest(Deadpool=Lobo=Violent,Creeper=Crazy,Ambush Bug=Meta,Plastic Man=Unkillable)!
@@rayvenkman2087. Deadpool="Lobo=Violent,Creeper=Crazy,Ambush Bug=Meta,Plastic Man=Unkillable"!
I hate that she joins the bat family. It’s so weird imo. Shes a terrible person that was complicit in so many crimes along side joker but DC acts like she is innocent and never did anything wrong. She is way too oversaturated in media. Don’t get me wrong i like Harley Quinn but it’s too much.
Zerr an arr batman arresting her in current comics was so good because they just forgave her because she's not a bad guy lol tell that to her victims
She went from one of my favorite characters to one of my most hated it's a shame
how can she even be trusted by them at all enough to accept her, at least Catwoman just steals, she's more on par with Penguin, an informant with connections than a trusted recruit
@@all9472 Which comic was that?
People forget that, in her original origin and solo series, Harley was not a heroic or moral person. Joker never forced her to join him. She became obsessed with him all on her own, and started committing crimes to get his attention, not because he told her to. She always had her own autonomy and she chose to seek him out. There are real women out there who behave like her and share her attitude (think serial k*ller stans). She should not be a hero in any form.
Too much Harley Quinn, not enough Wonder Woman.
She's a grapist tho...
Not enough well written Wonder Woman mind you but yes totally agree
I still can't believe DC animation and WB won't give Wonder Woman her own animated series.
@@JuztJake09 as crazy as it sounds DC super hero girls actually has a decent Diana
@Plasma_trinity
Not enough Wonder Woman, Vixen, Fire and Ice, Birds Of Prey, Zatanna, or Bumblebee.
So much for female empowerment.
They want Harley to be DC’s Deadpool so badly, but it never works. Just stop
I feel like she's this, but with the marketability of Pikachu from Pokemon due to being instantly recognizable.
They could've just went with somebody like Ambush Bug.
if any DC character that's gonna be a Deadpool stand in it would be Lobo or Plastic Man
@teddyriggs1305 Lobo should be pushed more but WB don't like sensible things so whateves
@@a1rg3ar31
But people don't know who Ambush Bug is. It was easier in theory to go with Harley Quinn.
I still don't get how Harley's more popular than my girl Zatanna.
It’s unfortunate, but it makes sense, since Zatanna has yet to appear on live action film.
@@vividlantern8854That’s on WB being too reluctant to green light anything not Batman or Superman with a big budget, taking chances with the DC Universe and giving characters like her and Adam Strange a chance. Our first Flash on the big screen is in The Lego Movie and we know the business with Ezra Miller which might have poisoned the well for Flash movies with how the solo movie performed more or less because of the starring lead.
Because of Margot Robbie
because harley actually has a personality unlike zatanna
@@animationcentral.3799Cap. Zatanna has a more interesting backstory, more funny and likable personality and powers, while Harley has become a parody of a Deadpool parody
I feel so bad for Nightwing fans,He gets killed by harley quinn, embarrassed in that batman and Harley Quinn film, loses to harley in the arkham games and Get’s kidnapped by penguin.
Yeah it’s rough out here but at least in the comics the meat riding for him is equal to the meat riding for Harley quinn
@@ineedit1772 it could ve worse he could be Tim drake
I always find it crazy that
Arkham Asylum: Harley Quinn is easily defeated with one counter.
Arkham Knight: Harley is strong enough to take out nightwing while fighting several cops.
@@phabiorules that’s what I’m saying in all the Arkham games she gets one tapped by Batman but nightwing and multiple police officers get cooked by her
Fan fiction treats him better than DC does.
One of main problens is they seem to put all the blame on the joker and not harkey herself.
She was always crazy, the joker got her to bring her craziness to the outside and not have to hide it anymore.
I think the main problem is that instead of using her past as an explanation for her actions, they use it as an excuse. “It’s not her fault for killing and torturing all of those innocent people, she was being abused.”
@@WhyNot-mj3hjthose people who excuse it because she was abused have to realize that she was not some innocent civilian that did not know any better. She was a psychiatrist that worked at a mental asylum. She would not have been abused in first place, if she had actually acted like a professional psychiatrist. The number 1 rule of working at a mental asylum is to not form any bond with your patient. Once you realize that you are starting to care for your patient, you have to request to be assigned to another patient. Since the patient trying to bond with you is actually trying to use you to aid in their escape from the asylum.
@@Rawan.9472the even crazier part is that she's supposed to be a novice at doing psychiatry. She shouldn't have been offered to work at arkham in the first place.
Her first introduction she didnt even have any actual training in the animation at the least, she got her "degree" from the internet and so everyone who complained about her being psychiatrist and she should know x y z are plain wrong and actually makes sense she fell for joker so easily. She had no or barely any training as a psychiatry to begin with.
Idk when it started treating her "degree" seriously in the comics when she was introduced as harley started in animation before comics but im kinda upset I fell for the stupidity thinking harley was a good psychiatrist and never started that way.
The Harley animated series made a big deal about Harley realizing it was her own fault and her own decision and actually took some pretty direct shots at what you're talking about.
@@Adamdidit. The same show, where she later killed nightwing while intoxicated? She should get into jail for that, not mental institution!
I totally agree. Harley Quinn might be my favorite DC character, but there is such a thing as "too much of a good thing".
DC made a Harley cartoon before a Wonder Woman animated series…. And no DC super hero girls doesn’t count
Agree, DC really need to rethink their decisions with stuff like this.
Jesus Christ died for your sins on the cross. Repent and believe in him or you will be separated from God The Father for all eternity and face hell forever, for all eternity, never ending
That's because DC is basically a giant Harley Quinn fandom now.
Because Wonder Woman is actually as boring as people think Superman is.
@@WompaStompaCyn low key True
Harley used to be a treasure you had to dig deep to find in media. Now she's fucking everywhere. Like some kind of harley quinn inflation. Quinnflation
"Do NOT google Harley Quinn inflation, worst mistake of my life!"
- Peter Griffin
Don't google that
I genuinely just don't find her interesting by her self. The whole joining the Batfamily thing too is weird. Like everytime Joker killed someone, she was right there too.
There's gotta be a limit, bro. She's reformed? Fine. But she can't hang around us.
Also, that Nightwing SA scene is inexcusable. Never would be accepted with the genders flipped.
I personally think that wasn't SA. Dick says "The things I do for Gotham" and in my view he is giving a consent. He don't want to do this now, because he has a job to do, but he doesn't mind if that would happened if the time wasn't a problem. Yeah, whole movie is horny mess and shows how unhinged Bruce Timm looks like.
Exactly bro
Well that’s a problem with Red Hood too. I think the Bat Family is too inclusive. Dick, Babs, Tim, Cass, Steph, Damian, Duke, Luke (honorary), Huntress (honorary, depending). That’s pretty much it for me in terms of direct heroes in the family. Not counting extended inc folks like Knight and Squire etc. Jason was at his best as an adversary in my book. Harley doesn’t have to be a full on villain anymore but being in the batfamily just feels wrong. And I just don’t care for Kate…unrelated issue. Get her outta hur.
@@GM-gb1eu it was SA. The only reason people think it wasn't is cuz its nightwing
@@smallrug3469 if it was Batman, Superman, Jason, Selina, Diana, whoever, I would think the same way.
If they wanted a DC equivalent of Deadpool they should have used Lobo.
Lobo would have been a great Deadpool equivalent, or if not they could have used someone like Plastic man, The Creeper, Condiment King, LiveWire, heck DC could have brought Freakazoid into the DCU. Or just made a brand new character instead.
Or Ambush Bug.
Can't he's a man, gotta have quirky woman.
No one is gonna mention Deathstroke or Deadshot? But Deathstroke mainly
@@Goremasterhelsing I’d rather not see those characters quipping left and right. Lobo is all about that and he’s another character that’s nearly impossible to kill.
i think the real reason suicide squad is being pushed so much is DC think the squad is the answer or equivelent to the Guardians of the Galaxy.
Which is baffling because there are spacefaring teams in the comics who can do exactly that. Suicide Squad was the Red Shirt Squad before they crowbarred her into it.
Bro thinks they’re Marvel LMFAO
I agree, and it's stupid of them.
The Suicide Squad is a group of criminals who do dirty work under the fear of death, the Guardians of the Galaxy are adventurers who fly through space and get into adventures.
These are different characters and concepts.
@@pennysanchez7656 yeah dc needs to stop thinking they’re marvel
Feel like if they want their Guardians of the Galaxy, they should have went for Green Lantern Corps or Young Justice. Suicide Squad are villains like the Guardians started out sure but like they aren't meant to be as redeemable as Guardians. They are just forced to carry out actions under threat of death.
The disrespect to nigthwing will never be forgived
Fuck Nightwing! He's sucks, just like Harley Quinn
The minute they turn her into a Martial arts expert, kung fu master,weapons specialist, MMA fighter, tactical Genius, I checked out
Yeah sometimes she be outsmarting and beating Batman’s ass and i just can’t help but think that Batman knows over 100 martial arts, is seen as worthy enough to be the heir of the league of assassins and is the world’s greatest detective but is getting his ass handed to him by Harley Quinn a psychiatrist who specializes in the criminally insane and has no combat training and is so “smart” she didn’t even realize from the jump joker manipulated her but can predict all of Batman’s moves
@@ineedit1772 straight factz ,watching her beat him ,plus paradeamons 😅😅🤣🤣
I think the most iconic weapon she had was probably the comicly big hammer in Lego Batman games... also I miss the arlequin suit
shes kinda a martial arts expert cus shes an olympic gymnasist but yeah i agree with your comm, i like it when they water down her powers and make her the 2 key things she is, a gymnasists and a psychiatrist like in the new series caped crussador, they did an amazing job of giving us a new rendition of harley
@@pewialmostdie3631 she was never a gymnast in BTAS she was just a psychiatrist,nothing more than just jokers eight had woman but now she's a girl boss beating up everyone, Batman,Granny Goodness 😅😅😅🤣
There's this weird obsession in portraying Batman in being killed or humiliated.
Gotham Knights Batman "died" and now this.
Catwoman leaves him at the altar.
Lucius Fox basically takes his money.
The Bat Family leaves him.
Alfred dies.
These Hollywood types must really hate characters that millions of people look up to.
Nah it's bad ppl hating heros so they worship the bad guys
That's modern writing for ya
That's modern "deconstruction" trope. Every writer wants to make his stample on the mythos so they think that destroying part of Bruce and trying to rebuild him in their own way is a good plot. Not so much. Where are simple detective stories? DC? Where?
I find this line of arguments honestly pretty funny
Damage Control, lots of fans myself included are kinda getting sick of Op Batman. Now you guys know how Superman have felt for YEARS
I like Harley Quinn, but I do feel like they’re trying too hard to push her as a “meta-funny character” and often they excuse the horrible things she does by saying “she is an antihero”.
Honestly, my favorite version of Harley Quinn (outside of the animated series because that’s a classic) is probably the injustice version. That one actually had Harley go through a legitimate redemption arc and the fact that she used to be a terrible person is acknowledged but she is actively trying to make up for it.
DC has a huge problem with writing villains as protagonists. When they do, they turn them into anti-heroes but their understanding of anti-heroes is "good guy who kills."
Harley Quinn, a woman who was in an abusive relationship and escaped it, struggling to come to terms with the bad things she did is the fun quirky clown girl who saves the day alongside Batman.
Deathstroke, a ruthless international assassin who did horrible things in order to murder a group of teenagers over something that wasn't their fault is just The Punisher but with a paycheck.
Red Hood, the most nuanced, sympathetic, ruthless, and attention grabbing Batman antagonist is basically also just another Punisher clone. Trying (and failing) to kill Gotham criminals.
Anti-heroes are who do bad things in order to protect either people around them, the world as a whole, or both, with them going to dark places only to be criticized and fight their way back from the temptation of becoming a villain.
Yeah, all three of these do not meet this criteria at all. They're still black and white good guys, with the only questionable thing they do is killing but all the people they kill a red shirt bad guys are told to us over and over again have done domestic violence or murder.
@@gfilmer7150 Honestly, Deathstroke is the worst one because us New Teen Titans fans will always remember how he slept with Terra AKA a minor. Apparently later it was retconned he didn’t sleep with her, only kissed her once and baited her with a promise of a relationship once she was older, but that’s still blatant grooming. Having him ever work with the heroes will always feel icky to me because of that. Like, I enjoyed the Dark Nights Metal comic, but when Aquaman and Slade had to work together, and Slade would occasionally criticize/insult Aquaman, Aquaman should have just retorted, “and you did very inappropriate things with a teenage girl. In other words, shut the hell up, Wilson.”
@@doctordoom85 DC realized the character was popular and so decided to play into that popularity. Like I said, they don’t know how to write villains as protagonists. The most you get with that concept being done well is in the DCAU shows. Two-Face, Feat of Clay, Birds of a Feather, Catwalk, Harley’s Holiday, Double Talk, and Joker’s Millions to name a series of Episodes following villains as protagonists while not making them good guys.
@@gfilmer7150bro the best example of an actual anti hero is itachi uchia from Naruto that’s how u do an anti hero
@@gfilmer7150
Deathstroke is like The Punisher, but without Frank's rigid moral code (that Jason Aaron got rid of, yeah F that guy).
I hate how she is some sort of anti hero that was a victim of joker. She had free will she actively participated in his insanity she is GUILTY.
Yep, she didn't had a tragic story as many characters had. I mean she seduced her college teachers to become a psychiatrist cause she didn't wanted to work. She had an obsession with criminals and instantly fell in love with the Joker. He didn't had to manipulate her that much cause she was already obsessed with him. He gave her attention and she liked it. I readed somewhere that she may suffers from histrionic trouble and that's probably true.
@LaPaisiblePetiteGnomette I wish there was a genuine story to harley and joker more realistic where joker does genuinely manipulate a successful pyschiatrist but it happens over time. She breaks him out and as time goes on he appears nice to her only lashing out here and there. But as time goes on he is just abusive up to MAD LOVE where he throws her out a building. I would live as her once brilliant mind became more obsessed but not simply out of live but out of necessity. She gave up her whole life for this man and she can't go back. She lives in denial that he cares about her and blames batman for getting in the way. After mad love she would join the Gotham girls ivy and catwoman and become FRIENDS with ivy NOT LESBIANS (don't know why girls gotta always be lesbos for no reason) she would eventually get with deadshot and joker kills him and tortures harley for it but her will and determination to be more than jokers pawn is what pulls her through but the perfect harley quinn story doesn't exist. Sadly
Harley Quinn kinda fueled his insanity while trying to get him to settle down.
Okay injustice Superman
Exemple of a villain becoming a great anti-hero: Venom, because he always tried to destroy spider man and only spider man, the bro saved people because he thought that he was the hero on the story. Harley is a menace to everyone
The problem is when you overemphasize a minor character and try to make them grander than they actually are. Harley Quinn shouldn’t be able to take on Nightwing or Batman. She’s Harley Quinn not the Joker. Not every character needs to be this secret badass who is actually really, really powerful and has a heart of gold. She’s a crazy person who has an obsession with clowns. That’s what makes her Harley Quinn. And she’s a VILLAIN.
Like when the writers for Cars made Mater the protagonist for the second film.
Are you joking? She was Joker’s muscle.
@@ali773n I believe she should, in turn, be able to fight the Robins, its more a matter of her winning those fights
Well to be fair harley is actually stronger than joker physically, she's a professional acrobatic so whoever joker can fight she should be able to as well, its just that joker comes up with better plans and he has a ton of different machines and gadgets as well.
@@ali773ndefinitely not
Why is it that they don't want to acknowledge the shit Harley has done, Suicide squad game just skips over it, birds of prey just had her break up w Joker and everythings fine and dandy... Like bro have her face her demons first.
Fucking Injustice after she helped murder millions of people.
And the movie makes it worse since all she cares about is "revenge" for the Joker.
God that movie pissed me off
Out of curiosity What do you think of Harley in the injustice comics?
But in *"Birds of Prey"* she spent the movie running from people gunning for her now that she isn't under Joker's protection anymore, which made her realize how badly she had treated people in general just because she could...
Cassandra was her morality pet, and Harley almost selling her out to Black Mask was her rock-bottom.
She then faced her demons and took on Roman Sionis with her newly made allies and redeemed some of the shitty stuff she had done over the years.
I'm not a big fan of that movie, but Margot Robbie as Harley Quinn had a pretty good arc in the DCEU, it was fun to have one live action Harley in the movies, and at the same time having proto-Harley in the TV show *Gotham* (Ecco, who showed up in season 4 & 5, in which
Francesca Root-Dodson plays a fantastic version of "evil Harley" up till the last episode in 2019)...
Makes no sense.
@@nightmarefanatic1819 couldn't agree with you more, this woman literally needs to be killed by injustice superman
It’s crazy how Harley Quinn had more screen time then WW, Batman and superman in the dceu
Wait that isn't true my guy
@@chidubemanukwu it is
Well when you got Margot Robbie’s sex appeal…
Wonder Woman got 2 solo movies, a major role in BvS, a leading role 4 hour epic. And a whole other version of the same 4 hour epic.
I think she’s doing fine.
@@zaneoss How many Batman movies do you know
I've been tired of Harley Quinn since 2016 she's very annoying. Paul Dini should be the only one that writes for Harley.
Jesus Christ died for your sins on the cross. Repent and believe in him or you will be separated from God The Father for all eternity and face hell forever, for all eternity, never ending
Deadpool for example isn’t annoying because he’s clever, witty, and ofc the 4th wall- Harley just gives off the impression she’s trying too hard when she’s written badly, and those writers are literally trying too hard to make her cool or funny or whatever it may be.
@@ultraviolet540 The problem with Harley Quinn is DC keeps trying to redeem her and turn her into an anti hero. Harley Quinn isn't an anti hero she's a villain. I mean she willingly murdered children in the comics and Arkhamverse. She did it for laughs that's not something you can be redeemed for. At least when Anakin killed the Younglings he felt remorse. Harley did it with a smile on her face. That's just plain evil. Harley Quinn is just as bad as Joker these days.
@@callmejacob3234 I remember one comic where she helped distribute handheld-consoles that were rigged to explode, and she did this on christmas. She succeded, by the way, killing hundreds if not thousands.
I also dislike how they try and make her wiser than she looks. In injustice, she was the one who brough batman to his senses during a tense moment, and I was like "wtf!?". I know she used to be a psychologist, but this is too much and they should stop trying to glorify her at the cost of dumbifying smarter characters.
Like you said, she is a straight up villain. Its ok if she ends up working together here and there because it also fits her own agenda, but not because of the "goodness of her heart". People claim she only did bad things because of her obsession with the joker, as if it excused all the murders and torture she did at his side. She is a psycho, not an anti-hero like DC has been trying to push her as.
@@Ff323S literally Thank there only for obvious reasons
Why cant they give Cassandra Cain this kind of attention!?
Appeal
Popularity
And
Demand
Those 3 things r the reason why she shows up more than wonder woman in everything
@@ryice944who is demanding Harley?
@@ineedit1772 the same people who buy her comics over wonder womans
The same people who cosplay as her
Tge same people watched her show enough for it to get renewed every season and even get a spin off
@@ineedit1772 The network and the politicians.
@@ineedit1772 well she was played by Margot robbie who is one of the top 3 most in demand female actors in Hollywood right now
Bruce Timm and the rest of the DCAU creatives: proof that even the best writers can get worse and not better with time.
And why great writers like Dwayne McDuffie and Gene L. Coon are still remembered as the cream of the crop because they didn’t taint their body of work with poor creative choices plus the ones who does the real heavy lifting in giving the shows that extra special quality.
My issue is not just Harley and the free pass she gets as some innocent Joker Groupie.
It’s how she infects all of DC with BS like the Suicide Squad with Harley, Deadshot, Boomer, King Shark as the core roster being any threat to the Justice League. Instead of some government sanctioned Justice League of America led by Captain Atom.
I'm absolutely SICK of this character. I still remember in 2019 when we got that birds of prey film, the harley quinn cartoon, and I also saw an advertisement for another animated harley quinn cartoon at the time and I was thinking "holy shit, do you think that enough?" Also, can't forget about that big game Multiversus, a game that had joker nowhere to be found, but Harley? Yeah make her DC character #4, why not? The sad part is that it's not even close to the only time I've seen Harley not only being pushed over characters like the joker, but characters like the flash and green lantern as the fourth most important DC character.
You know, there was a time when I got really annoyed with Pokémon fans for overly hating on Charizard because "he's too overrated" by thinking "no, he's not, Pokémon's just pushing him a lot, it's not that bad", only to remember Harley Quinn and going "oh wait, maybe they have a point". I am so done with this character, like she's not a terrible character or anything, but there's like one story that they tell with her and they have told it a million times. It seems to me she's like the fourth most popular DC character at this point only behind Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman, and even then she gets more representation than some of them. I don't get it DC, you have so many amazing female superheroes and even super villains like Raven, Starfire, Hawkgirl, Black Canary, Wonder Woman, ZATANNA! But no, the one you wanna push is the one with 0 superpowers and the one whose story has been told to death because it makes 40-year-old Facebook moms gitty. Even the other villain that's been used because of her, Poison Ivy, who actually is a good character, she's only ever used as harley quinn's girlfriend, and the eco terrorist personality she had that's a reflection on Batman's obsession with justice is lost just so we can have her be Harley's girlfriend. Speaking of which, Batman's rogues gallery is like the most interesting in comic book history, not only because they're unique, different, and memorable, but they are all reflections of Batman's identity in some way shape and form, but all we ever seem to get from them now is Harley Quinn, who not only has the least connections to Batman, but in the stories where she is the villa8n is just Joker 2.0, So instead of getting a lot of cool stories with Scarecrow and Two-Face, we have to constantly get Harley Quinn stories ad-nauseam.
My boy Venom did the whole villain into Anti Hero thing INFINITELY better then Harley
And he didn’t have to eat brains to get a clue.
The Major Difference is that they did that Arc with Venom in the 90’s (Prime Spider-Man Time) and Harley Quinn just lazily copied it in the 2010’s
And Harley is still more popular
@@animationcentral.3799 *And Harley is still more popular on Rule 34
@@animationcentral.3799 Not really they are about even in popularity if anything.
How have we had a Harley Quinn series but not a Nightwing one like if done correctly that show would be a heavy hitter
Harley basically gets to star in everything (even stories where she ain't even the official Protagonist) like Injustice, DC Superhero Girls, Suicide Squad, and the like, but Dick can't even get his own movie or anything?
@@SabeNo-rh7mb I know and whenever he’s in animated movies they always do him dirty and make him break his arm. The only source of media he was done right was TBAS, Teen Titans, and Young Justice
@@SabeNo-rh7mbBecause Harley is way more popular. WB knows she brings in the money, look at SS. Awful movie but people went to go see it for Harley.
The sequal flopped though and her solo movie flopped @@glensaldivar3169
@@glensaldivar3169eh, I don't think they went for Harley alone. In any case, both her subsequent live action appearances were flops.
I've always preferred Harly Quinn with Joker. And no not because of the enjoyment of abusive relationship (something the fangirls call you out on). I just preferred her as a psycho and a villain. A bad guy. That's it.
I've just honestly never really was into villains becoming Anti-heroes due to popularity from fans with maybe the exception of Venom.
Eh it’s a gray area. I preferred her with the Joker too but mainly because it was interesting seeing this woman Batman believed could be reformed, but she just kept falling for the same pitfall. I think her animated take is still the best take since her arc is completed. Falls for the wrong guy, almost leaves him, falls for him again after he clearly doesn’t value her the same way (through abuse, and abandonment by making her a patsy numerous times), finally Joker goes too far with Harley on board, Joker dies and Harley is presumed dead but ended up being alive and just moves on becoming a grandmother. Arc over. Not much else has been as interesting.
But doesnt that still is achived with punchline? If you just want the female villain that acompanies joker that is just it
@@HectorT52you mean Punchline?
@@draykohunter6805 Yeah yeah I dont know why my mind mixed up the names
Honestly, I prefer her with Joker too. At least with him, the writers acknowledge the toxic parts. When it comes to HarleyxIvy though, the writers think it's suddenly okay to ignore their toxicity or try to justify it, which is pretty hypocritical.
Batman and Harley is what happens when you let Bruce Timm write a Batman story without Paul to reign him in
Or Dwayne McDuffie to edit the script to not be dogshit.
LMAO Dwayne did work his magic back in the day didnt he RIP@@rayvenkman2087
90 minutes of fetish content, got you
She’s their golden goose. Not just popular with men because she’s hot, but she’s also single-handedly built up the woman’s audience to be massive compared to how it was before, even becoming massively popular with little girls who absolutely shouldn’t be watching most of the content she’s from.
As a result they’re dumbing her down, making her more appealing to the female audience: breaking up with the joker, becoming comic relief, hiding the sexuality of the character, they’re going hard trying to make her strong and independent when by definition Harley isn’t independent.
They’re changing and warping the character so they can continue to overuse her as their cash cow. They need to stop if they care about the integrity of the character but they never will while she makes that much money, and she’s essential to appeal to the female market.
You've put my thoughts into words perfectly 👏
Its so fucking stupid because Wonder Woman is literally RIGHT THERE
Shes hot so she appeals to men, shes strong and independent to appeal to women, she has good morals and a code which is good for children and most importantly, shes a major fucking character
I dont understand why DC are not pushing her instead
@@jojoman4223because she's not a rebellious type like the one they present Harley is, WW doesn't go against the system as Harley does
@@jojoman4223 You act like all men care about is hotness in a character, we can also like a woman's personality and traits. Sexiness helps but it doesn't make a character automatically good.
Dc rides Harley Quinn lmao
Or should I say, DC revs their Harley.
Can I join
*batman
@@animationcentral.3799 that is also true
Why shouldn't they? She's easily in the top 3 female DC characters. Maybe even number 1 now. She's marketable becaue she's a cute girl that does crazy things, there's nothing more to it. I dunno, maybe the Suicide Squad isekai will change people's negative opinion on her, she's clearly a major player there.
The green lantern corps need a series
Wonder Woman needs a series. It’s not a trinity if she can’t even have her own content.
@@vividlantern8854I just don’t trust them to do a good one these days.
Green Lantern did have an animated series. It was called Green Lanter: the Animated Series. It wasnt bad actually. However, as a superman fan, the fact that Wonder Woman has received almost zero projects in this time is astounding. No animated shows, not even a last century video game. Shocking.
Injustice is what made me hate Harley. How the fuck do we have a Harley cartoon before Wonder Woman
Bro we get more Harley Quinn then we get Wonder Woman.
Why tf do we still not have a Wonder Woman animated series?
Because everyone that wonders how to write it winds up doing as bad as the 1948-1958 Kanigher run...which is where Bruce Timm and co got the idea for their iteration of Wonder Woman...and only minorly alluded to the Perez, Byrne and Rucka Runs while also implying maybe some Carter Canon+ the original Marston run.
Oddly enough, Butch Luckich actually did have an idea that was going to make sense, but got cobbled into the JSA Tomorrowverse movie...so good idea, too bad that we'll only ever see what could have been on one of her JSA missions though.
It's also kinda too bad that the Tomorroverse only has ten movies...an eleventh might have been nice...I mean a Wonder Woman movie set in WW2 would have done well you get the joke for this character.
blaming Harley when Batman is the main one getting everything
@@animationcentral.3799
She has a literal TV Show bro.
@@animationcentral.3799 Harley is the strongest subcategory of Batman to the point that it's now her own category...I'd rather Selina if we're marketing "villains" over the main hero...at least Selina's stories are actually is something that is still firmly within the Detective Comics vein...she's the classic Femme Fatale who teaches geography and history on the weekend.
@@Astartes-6969and how many shows/movies has Batman been given?
The more they keep pushing the idea that Harley is actually a good person underneath her horrible deeds, the more I dislike her.
𝙃𝙖𝙧𝙡𝙚𝙮 𝙦𝙪𝙞𝙣𝙣: What do you want me to be a terrible person.
@@HarlEyQuiNN80085 literally yes. do you forget that she just becomes a good guy no Batman forgiving her of her sins just poof she’s a good guy now because she broke up with joker she doesn’t even feel guilty for all the bad stuff she did no redemption arc just went from villain to hero with a snap of someone’s fingers
@@ineedit1772 𝙃𝙖𝙧𝙡𝙚𝙮 𝙌𝙪𝙞𝙣𝙣: I think you're forgetting something redemption arc was spurred on by a genuinely shocking DC character: the Reverse-Flash. Though most Reverse-Flash characters are considered some of the most evil villains in the DC Universe, the third Reverse-Flash, Daniel West, had a redemption story of his own.
Batman offered me a pardon in exchange for helping him track down the Joker after he had stolen a nuclear bomb.
[ And writers are allowed to do whatever they want.With the story is just your opinion if you like or not]
@@HarlEyQuiNN80085 Daniel west was a killer sure but he wanted to save himself and his sister from there abusive father so his redemption story is actually believable he thought he was a good guy but then realized what he did was wrong and sacrificed himself to save lives. Harley murdered innocent people for love and attention from joker and didn’t bat an eye to killing children. One killed people to take their speed to go back in time and kill his abusive father felt guilty for what he did and had a character arc, the other person killed people for attention and once her redemption arc happened no one ever told her she was a bad person everyone kinda just said water under the bridge at least in the Harley Quinn show nightwing was always on her ass about being a monster who just suddenly became the bat family leader until she somehow killed him
How about before nightwing's death, the batfamily couldn't fight without their gear 😂, batman is a ninja, he trained all of them yet harley in this show is somehow better in hand to hand combat 🤦♂️, how about poison ivy soloing the legion of doom in a small room.
Harley Quinn has the biggest plot armor in existence
But you don’t get it. They’re strong. And independent. And they get it done….I get the show is comedy first, but come oooon with the plot armor.
@TheShockVox
The Harley Quinn show: written by people who didn't even read or pick up a single comic involving the bat family
That's how I describe how the characters were handled in the recent seasons of the show
Now they have Oracle Barbara Gordon working alongside the Gotham City sirens rather than forming the birds of prey.
Finally someone has addressed this.
I've had my fill out Harley Quinn.
You got a full Harley Quinn? Might need to take her to get checked in case it’s serious.
In all seriousness, I think DC and WB have overblown her importance with SS:KTJL being the absolute nadir of this aggressive Hollywood Hogan of n.W.o push where you’re just sick of having them hog the spotlight while characters like half of the DC Universe getting table scraps.
If I don’t see Harley or Amanda Waller for another decade, I’ll be fine. Suicide Squad characters aren’t meant to be overexposed
Alas, it’s precisely them that James Gunn and the Warners are leaving behind.
So yes, the new cinematic universe (I’m so sick of this word) will begin with Harley, Waller, Peacemaker and other clowns from the Suicide Squad.
I love harley but even i've been saying she's been in way too much DC properties.
You also pretty much summed up how i feel about the Harley Quinn show. I liked the first 2 seasons but later on i just couldnt.
I've also disliked that injustice Harley can join the good guys as if she didnt help nuke a city and Bats let her be part of her team. Imagine your former friend working with the person who helped nuke your city and also killed your wife and unborn child.
Yeah that was crazy to me. I never played the injustice games, but I'm aware of the story. From what I've seen in the comic adaptions, Harley practically never gets called out for her part in nuking Metropolis. It was only until the injustice 2 comic where she got some karma for her actions in the form of Martha and Ra's. To me, Harley only went on a path of redemption because she had to, not because she wanted to.
Not a fan of how her design has evolved either. She barely even has a clown theme anymore, much less a harlequin. She's just a generic hot punk girl now.
I find it ironic how Jinx from League of Legends was originally a Harley knock off, but ever since Arcane came out it seems like DC's been trying to rip Jinx's design and personality onto Harley but fail horribly.
DC simply threw Paul Dini's original Harlequin in the trash, and after the New 52 brought that boring and insufferable lesbian feminsta project
bru chill you don't gotta drag social movements into this
Chill, don't bring your homofobia and mysoginy into this XD
@@justchilling7712
Unfortunately no matter how much we try to leave them in the trash, the DC writers keep forcing them on us.
^^
You can say, 'Don't drag social movements into this' as much as you want, but when said social movements are the primary reason why so much modern media is awful... It's a bit relevant.
My favorite version of Harley will always be from the Lego Batman nintendo DS game. Her boss fight with the rollercoasters and her massive hammer, as well as her jester-like clothing was always so cool to me.
They keep trying to make her more like Deadpool, but she has no motivation. Deadpool wants to be a hero but thinks lower of himself because of his past. His self-hate and humor alienate him from other heroes and sometimes less moral heroes use it to take advantage of him. Harley's main theme is discovering herself after the Joker but narratively there is no consistent want. The people she meets usually can defend themselves pretty good unlike Deadpool's daughter. Each story she can go form wanting to be a hero, antihero, civilian, anti-villain, villain or move around the scale. Since they can't pick a direction to take her they can throw her on the wall and not worry if she sticks because people consume her for aesthetic alone.
I think it would be cool if they mainly use her like a wild card like Hisoka or the phantom troupe if they give her a crew. This is so we don't know if she's gonna help the heroes, villains, or herself. This is so she's not chaotically all over the morality scale without a goal. Her motive could be to have as much fun as possible.
Your not wrong there. She has become so bloated her character has become suffocating.
BS
I like how harley got her own animated show and she’s easily the worst part of it
Not in s1 and 2
@@maryanneuduak7078 she absolutely was in season 2
Dang you kinda right i loved kite man, poison ivy, king shark, and clayface more than Harley herself 🤦🏽♂️
@@ineedit1772 clay face and king shark were annoying too. Bane, kiteman, and Gordon carried
I literally think of it as the Bane show.
My favorite Harley Quinn is from the Telltale games, where she's more of a villain than other adaptations making her a hero or anti-hero.
It was fine, but that one could feel too try hard at times
@@TheShockVox For me it was less try hard. I just prefer a villainous take on Harley than what we usually get today where they pass by it. Also a Harley using her psychiatrist skills rather than just saying she's one and don't do anything with it.
Valid, and nice seeing a telltale fan
They still made her kinda "hero", since she joins "squad" in Vigilante Joker route.
I liked that one a lot too, where she felt like a more grounded potential threat/ally without being too obnoxious.
A Gotham City Sirens movie actually was supposed to be a thing where Black Mask was supposed to be a villain but then it got canceled for a Jared Leto joker & Harley movie which then got canceled for the birds of prey movie
As a Harley Quinn fan I 100% agree! The Harley I love is from Batman the animated series. The modern day Harley Quinn is not my Harley!
Yeah I hope the obsession with Harley dies down. So that's why I started to dislike her after breaking up with Joker. There's no character development over her break up or anything. With her being that obsessive with the Joker and being so heartbroken that Joker died in the Arkham series, they've should've not included Joker in suicide squad, but not only that, he looks terrible anyway and instead have her deal with being away from Joker for a time to realize that he really wasn't good for her. And instead, her new character arch could be with siding with Superman's way of dealing with things since in one comic, he actually kills Joker to prove a point to Batman, which is actually what Joker's point was too ironically. That way she could still have somewhat of a vendetta against Batman to keep things interesting but still be a Deadpool-ish character. But I guess it really is just all over the place and they make her seem like some modern woman who just got tired of her boyfriend and wanted something new lol! And that's just a boring unhealthy character. Makes her seem like a villain still because that would be a psychopathic villainous mindset that no one wants to root for. Not even for a neutral character. So there's a lot of problems with it when I gotta admit, it could've worked, and really well if they gave it time and used the story of Superman killing Joker or another one of Batman's villains to prove him a point. Could even be Ra's Al Ghul that dies by Superman.
Gotham Knights of all things showed us what a good Post-Joker Harley could look like if they stop trying to force her into a Deadpool role that Lobe and Ambush Bug could easily fill. A psychiatrist who uses her influence for villainy and there’s a world of ideas one can explore with that Harley by remembering what her former profession was.
My biggest issue with the B&H movie is that isn’t just a straight up rip off of the episode, Harlequinade from BTAS. Which is a fantastic episode, and better than this movie in every way
Wanna hear the uncomfortable truth that fans aren’t willing to admit...
She isn’t a good character on her own or in the spotlight. There are main characters and then there are support characters. Harley is and will always be a support character. She only ever works best as Jokers Robin as she is most able to be utilized there. Both as a character and as a stepping stone for the main characters (most often Batman and Joker)
She on her own doesn’t work. Period.
People will say otherwise but truthfully as a story writer (amateur I’ll admit but I know all the fundamentals and even a good grasp on advanced) this is how characters are. She isn’t good or done well on her own or in her own story.
millions of fans disagree with you
@@animezilla4486 millions of kids that wouldn’t think like this in reality about someone like Harley only disagree because they have no experience with someone that was in an abusive relationship and willingly chose to stay around so that said abusive crazy clown could kill a ton of innocent people for no reason
@@animezilla4486 well millions of people are wrong then...
Also bold of you to act like there are MILLIONS of Harley Quinn fans. Maybe general DC fans but for one character? No...
And that's nothing bad. Joker is considered to be one of the most popular villains ever and on his own he doesn't work either. (excluding the 2019 movie, but that's a different story)
I wish writers realized this sometimes.
@@zalybrainlessgenius503 absolutely
I think Suicide Squad (2016) ruined the character. I can't stand her in any type of media post 2016.
frl her Sex Appeal is what holding WW AND SUPERMAB back
She is edgy and politically correct in her relationship with Ivy. That's all. Never was a fan of her as a some anti-hero BS (never was a fan of that type of characters anyway). She deserve no place in BatFam. It shouldn't be even a question. She should try to became a normal citizen again after her rehabilitation would end (for me that shouldn't be even possible given what she had done, but I can accept that one "going easy on her"). That is the best part of Batman & Harley Quinn movie. I really like the scene when Harley shows Dick her rejected job papers. I feel kinda sad for her. That should be the main theme of her character - "How a mad love with insane psycho criminal can drive a good person into becoming another one and how it destroys your life in a society", not "Even though you killed many people, we forgive you because it was Joker's fault", that is such BS. Never was a fan of her and Ivy relationship. As a friends in her transitional period between beig Joker's sidekick and full rehabilitation - sure, but not romanticaly. It undermines Ivy's character, because push for Harley makes Ivy simply her love interest, removing her traits that made her very interesting in the first place and leaves Batman without a recognizable Batman female villain. Wonder Women is not advertised at all and it is a huge shame, because she should be the ideal women, not only in DC, but in all of the comics.
Not to mention ever since the writers paired Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy together, they willingly ignore the toxic aspects of their relationship. Poison Ivy was a toxic, manipulative friend to Harley Quinn, willing to push her under the bus whenever she became inconvinient or didn't act the way she wanted, but the writers who ship them willingly ignore Ivy's misanthropic traits.
@@Isabelle-cb3ro Yeah, she was immoral, seductive villain for Bruce, but now she became Harley's romantic interest and she doesn't do much more essentially.
@@GM-gb1eu I personally think seasons 1 and 2 of Harvey quinn were fine and fairly interesting BECAUSE she was still portrayed as a villain. A kind of pathetic villain underdog, but still a villain.
The show didn't try to make her into some hero. I liked that they decided to have the story centre around harely finding herself as a villain. It was an interesting take on Harley.
Season 3 came around and did the thing they always do with Harley, make her a hero. What makes this worse is that season 3 (and 4) probe poison ivy alone shows how more interesting and a compelling mc than her. They try to redeem her whilst simultaneously make her a bad girlfriend.
Then season 4 came around and at that point, I don't think the show knows what it wants to be and neither does harley. The identity crisis was done because in season 3 and now they were doing it again in season 4. All of the interesting side characters were gone, nightwing was hoed over beyond belief, the joker (who was actually kinda nice in season 3) was hoed over, everything and nothing happened this season and poison ivy's personality shift was so out of character
Writers seem to be in this weird paradox where Harley is written as strong role model for women and a surviver of abuse, while also infantilising her as a poor, helpless victim with no control over her actions. She’s shown as a silly harmless goof… except when they are showing us how she’s still an evil and crazy killer, but because she’s in a lesbian relationship she has to be a paragon for LGBT rights and her relationship with Ivy is always soft and perfect.
She’s everything and she’s nothing. It’s beyond confusing.
@@snowbunnie1113 well said it's weird as shit
Old Harley: "I'm severely mentally ill."
New Harley: "I'm not your average gurl XD."
They've oversaturated her in media appearances while removing her from the Joker. Which makes her significantly less of a compelling, and tragic character overall. They've forgotten she's supposed to be just as insane as The Joker which is why I'm actually more excited for Gaga's take on the character over Robbie's.
Unlike animated Harley, comic Harley has pretty much never had a consistent personality cause writers not named Paul Dini don’t know what to do with her. Sometimes she’s a quirky Deadpool type jokey character, or she’s a super serious badass anti hero who looks like a clown, or at her worst she’s a gross out nasty hyper sexual crazy girl who hits on anything with a pulse.
IM SO TIRED OF HARLY I NEED MORE SUPER GIRL OR ZANTANA OR ANYONE ELSE!!!!!
Stargirl is underrated af, she’s great
5 years earlier no one took me seriously.
Glad people are opening their eyes slowly.
♥️
Was Harley trained by a high-tier martial artist or something, I get she’s acrobatic but how is she folding trained fighters so easily😂
Same reason Joker is able to defeat heroes who can clapped him easily. Idiot Ball and Plot Bullshit.
Her taking down the entire Justice League easily took the cake.
Poison Ivy gave harley a shot that basically gave her peak level human strength and made her stronger than most humans, increased her agility and made her immune to toxins. With this, she’s an acrobat yes so she already had a point in the fighting category. I personally think and from what we’ve seen in comics Harleys fighting just improved over time especially considering some of the people she hangs out around (ex. catwoman) who is trained in martial arts, i don’t doubt she got lessons or picked stuff up, and ivys shot definitely gave her an advantage over most humans already.
@@angiequinn9799 Fair enough. The big problem with that since the last few years are the writers' ignorance towards each other and editors slacking on keeping track of what happens in one story verus the next; especially DC as they've done a handful of Crisises to fix their continuity problems each time it buggers up.
Knowing how current DC writers are, I doubt they were thinking of that when they had her punching well above her weight class. There's only so much suspension of disbelief one can have before it steers into absurdity and that includes Babel Tower Batman having contingency plans for everything because that story gave birth to the belief that Batman can clap everyone with prep time. The same Batman who can't even eat the sandwiches Alfred makes for him.
Is she a better hand to hand fighter than Lady Shiva?
I actually always wanted a comedic animated spin-off about Killer Moth pulling odd-jobs for the villains of Gotham. Seeing him constantly having to punch up in a city that puts him through the wringer always seemed like he'd make for a perfect center of slapstick shenanigans.
Harley feels so mishandled. She could have been reformed and then the next step of her character could have been learning that while she had done absolutely horrendous things in the past, she could do her best to change for the better. That's very broad, but that's really all they needed to do with her character.
Or maybe just let her be a villain for the rest of her life not everyone needs to be redeemed not every villain has to have a redemption arc she doesn't need to become a "misunderstood villain" who ends up turning into an "antihero" these troupes are getting old and I think her being a villain suits her better villains like harley and the joker they really don't deserve redemption for the shit they have done they should stay the way they are and suffer for there consequences Harley is literally bat shit crazy she's mentally sick I don't want her to welcomed by the heroes in the story just because she has a change of heart nothing would erase on what she has done it would be strange for a psychopathic villain to change she's has never been a "misunderstood villain" that they are trying to portray her to be so it's really weird for them to use that troupe on her personally I never liked Harley I just don't know what is about her that disgusts me
I think dc needs to give Harley Quinn a break in my opinion
*batman
Along with Scooby Doo.
@@maximusprime3459 yup
To be honest Harley Quinn season 2 and 3 was bad too. Season 1 was okay. But season 2 and 3 was trash just like 4.
I disagree
@@animezilla4486 Why ?
@@animezilla4486
Seasons 2 3 and 4 ruin Batman and the bat family. They ruined a perfectly good plot with Harley Quinn becoming Bruce's psychiatrist at the end of season 3 yet their characters do not interact for the entirety of 4
The bat family are incompetent Fighters and don't really seem to have nearly as much as the same training as Batman like they do in most other versions
This version of the bat family relies more on their gadgets as opposed to their trained martial arts abilities due to being trained by Batman
Harley Quinn somehow is somehow able to take on Nightwing and kill him, which doesn't make any sense.
Dc been meatriding the hell out of harley quinn so damn much
They've been riding the entire Suicide Sqaud. The fact that there's more Suicide Squad related media than Justice League content since 2016 is unacceptable.
@@BrandonTBlackwelleveryone with your pfp speaks straight facts lol
Harley stopped being Harley in the comics from New52 and in mainstream media from 2016.
The animated series is pure shit from season 1 where basically any character got a bad characterization and Harley got not only plot armor but plot strenght where she became such a good fighter that was able to take down villains and heroes far better than her (seems to read Tom King's run where Catwoman was able to beat Talia al Ghul in a duel).
DC from New52 going forward wanted from Harley to be their own version of Deadpool plus an empowered female character but they basically ruined her in the process.
You want an antihero of sorts that could be used for a lot of wacky scenarios, with a good sense of humor and that is partially associated with Batman? Use Creeper.
While for the empored female character Harley Quinn was supposed to be a cautionary tale, the best example of what a woman SHOULDN'T be.
One of the very few "new" good cautionary tales and DC fucked it up.
P.S. her relationship with Poison Ivy doesn't make any sense for both of them and her "new" costume is an extreme downgrade from the original
Ain’t no way in hell did Harley a insane person with a no fighting skills beating the daughter of Ra’s al ghul leader of the league of assassins god i hate Harley now
Thank you! This is exactly what I've felt since New 52 debuted! "Hurr durr, she needs a new origin, throw her in a vat of chemicals!" It's lazy writing. Then, to add insult to injury, you've got that piss poor 2016 movie, which made her feel one short step away from "written and directed by Rob Zombie".
Disagree with everything you just said first of all the animated series was the best thing that ever happened to that character it lasted for four season which tells you how popular it is. The new 52 did not ruin the character. Also that line of yours "Harley Quinn supposed to be a cautionary tale of what woman is not supposed to be"doesn't make any sense nobody have said they want to be like her
@@animezilla4486
Popular and good aren't synonimous anyway how many crappy Warner Bros series have reached multiple seasons even if they were despised by the fans?
Your point is that if the Harley Quinn Animated Series has been aired for 4 seasons then it's good and popular but Batwoman has been aired for 3 and received an enormous backlash since day 1, Velma has received now her second season and will get an halloween special even if everyone despises that show.
Will you tell me that Big Mouth on Netflix is a good show when EVERYBODY makes fun of Netflix for cancelling good or promising animated series (like Inside Job) but keep renewing Big Mouth for another season?
The New52 completely butchered the character, her characterization was completely changed for the reasons i've explained in the first comment.
A cautionary tale tells you what could happen if you behave in a certain way, "the boy who cried wolf" is a cautionary tale for example.
The point is precisely that nobody wants to be like her, nobody should be in a toxic relationship like the one Harley has with Joker BUT thanks to the New52 this has been completely changed.
Now your line about "nobody have said they want to be like her" is utterly false, how many girls have you seen that after Suicide Squad said that they wanted their relationship to be like Harley and Joker? Or how many people have done a cosplay of the character after 2016?
The character, thanks to the New52 and the horrible depictions in other media she had in recent years isn't liked at all:
- Batman and Harley Quinn was the biggest DC animated flop when it was released
- Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey was the biggest CBM bomb of that decade
- The Suicide Squad (the James Gunn's one) bombed
- SSKTJL, bombed game panned by everyone and Harley's depiction was one of the biggest complaints everyone had: from the complete overhaul of Arkham Harley's characterization to the Batman scene and the creepy interactions with a little kid version of Poison Ivy.
I used to love Harley. Precisely since before the New 52. It was all downhill from there. It feels like no one gets her. Even her having bleached skin feels like a miss. She was an asset in BtAS because she had unbleached skin. I unfairly tend to link the current Harley Quinn problem with the casting of Tara Strong as pretty much the go to voice of Harley. She tends to voice the character in a way that often sounds like a flanderization impression of the character, always pretty much being at a 10 or 8 in energy but none of the nuances of Arleen Sorkin’s take on Harley. And that kinda became how Harley is as a result in most media. So unfortunately Tara Strong Harley became the face, or voice, of Harley over saturation and misrepresentation to me. Shout out to Hynden Walch for being a better Harley after Arleen (for examples: 2004’s The Batman show, Batman Assault on Arkham, Flashpoint Paradox, and Apocalypse War). She’s even able to do that squee Arleen could do as Harley. They should’ve cast Starfire over Raven on this one.
Tara Strong is a talented VA, but her Harley voice has always sounded more like Timmy Turner with a Brooklyn accent. She’s not awful but I don’t know why she’s always the go to.
🤔 Now that you mentioned her voice, I kinda hear It.
@@snowbunnie1113she’s more of a name. Despite my distaste for her Harley, she does have talent in other roles. But more than that, she knows how to play the game more. She’s better at promoting herself, plays the social media game well, and playing into her sex appeal hasn’t hurt her much either. For example while I think Hynden is a better talent for the role, she actually goes out of her way to downplay herself. She avoids pictures being taken of her if she can, does very little, if any, con appearances. Plus sometimes casting directors just don’t want to go through auditioning so they have a go to. It’s part of why some many superhero characters have the same voices. Good example is Charlie Schlatter. Dude voices The Flash more than anybody. Now there’s like 20 people in the LA voice acting scene that I think would fit the character better, but he’s been proven. So he’s likely a go to. Might be the same for Tara.
@@snowbunnie1113 To me, she sounds like Toot (Drawn Together) and Truffles (Chowder) with a Brooklyn accent. I don't even hear Timmy.
Only the DCAU Quinn can be redeemed imo, you can make a case that she's broken. She's pure evil in most of the comics, killed children. Her crimes in the dcau is nowhere near as bad as other iterations. Plus her Redemption feels forced, Batman is always in conflict with Jason even when he stopped killing allowing someone like Harley into the bat family feels hypocritical.
Even that suicide squad anime didn't came yet i can expect that harley queen gonna had more screen time than the rest of the characters that clear from the trailer
And the thing is DC and WB plan on doing more anime with the DC characters for the next couple of years
Which sort of reminds me of what Marvel was doing a decade ago with their Marvel anime initiative and partnership with Studio MadHouse animation.
It gets to the point where Harley Quinn overshadows the Joker himself. She’s like the Minions of DC comics.
I feel like that has to do with the fact that Harley Quinn is being portrayed as a hero or antihero. They can force her into more stuff that way. Joker is a villain, they can usually only put him in villainous roles.
she's not even a hero bro. tired of DC pushing villains and anti heroes. yes they have their place, but it shouldn't be over the heroes that made DC what it is
literally
I actually love Harley Quinn, but at this point, she's kind of bieng treated like the only important female character in DC, which is simply bot true.
She not interesting enough in her own to be a main character she’s just a glorified side character
I am so sick of Harley Quinn. STOP SHOVING HER DOWN MY THROAT! She's so no pillar of dc. Just keep her as Jokers sidekick
Finally someone said it
Thank you I love Joker and Harley Quinn together☺
Ngl I hate when she’s Joker sidekick. It just dumbs down her character
Absolutely not that's 100% ridiculous if you don't like the character that's totally fine but she doesn't have to be joker sidekick
@@ahmetkerimkarakas3920well I disagree with this person
It's funny how Nightwing and Harley being a thing is apparently canon to the DACU. The Dee Dees from Beyond are Nightwing's grandchildren. 😅
I think that was a fan theory not a official thing
@@ter8905 From what I've heard the creators said that this is true on one of the comic cons, but I can me wrong.
@@GM-gb1eu I'm sure they did.
I see people complain about how much Batman is in media, I can understand that, but he's literally part of the big 3. But I feel like we see more Harley than we see Superman and Wonder Woman. I remember liking Harley growing up, nowadays I roll my eyes whenever she shows up in something.
Give her back to the Joker, i'm sure he can fix her.
Modern Harley Cringe actually makes me ill. Let Punchline take over the role and let Harley be a stolkHOElm girl again.
Here are some other problems I have with Harley beyond just oversaturation, though they are tied into and compounded by oversaturation.
1 She just doesn't stand on her own. Joker's Girlfriend/victim, Ivy's Girlfriend, the wacky mascot of Task Force X, or now the Bat Family. Her whole gimmick comes from her time with the Joker, or amounts to a baseball bat and a handgun. Dick, Barbara, Jason, Jean Paul Valley, all have been able to reinterpret their skills honed with the Bat Family or outright reinvent themselves to carry their own stories or find a variety of team dynamics. Other Gotham villains can stand proud as their own characters. But Harley is not one of those, which doesn't mean she can't be put to decent narrative use, but it does mean you can't use her as a leading lady in anything big.
2 It feels like the same stories repeated. The last time they took a new direction for her that worked, she was put on Task Force X. And this wouldn't be a problem without overuse, or if the general formula was more fun and suited to a leading character. But she feels stagnant or out of place with the oversaturation. Personally, I'd try shuffling her back to civilian life as supporting cast for her to really grow and change. Maybe an orderly or janitor of a good asylum. Sure, reclaiming her profession as a psychologist or therapist would be the peak of her getting past her villainous life, but even Arkham Asylum would have a hard time accepting that, let alone a place that actually helps people and follows professional standards.
3 They overstate her capability and relevance. I can't deal with the Harley show because beyond disrespecting actual Superheroes for cheap yucks, the idea of Darkseid showing any interest in Harley is laughable in a bad way. And the idea that he'd actually consider replacing Granny Goodness is nonsense. Jokes still have to make sense. The extent of her capabilities come from being unpredictable, whatever technical skill with fists and firearms she's gathered along the way, having a blunt force object, and a sidearm which might be oversized. Oh, and maybe some leftover Joker or Joker esque offense gadgets.
I think the worst part is they're ruining OK versions by turning her into that Margot Robbie-esk version for The Suicide Squad and its so UGHH
Well, prototypes from comics are quite often adjusted to fit film versions: the current Superman from comics is redrawn from the 1978 film, and Iron Man is already indistinguishable from Downey Jr.
P.S: Do you also think Margot Robbie is an overrated actress who became famous thanks to her attractive appearance?
F*cking Harley Quinn is getting more attention than any bat villain even more than the joker wtf
I’d take a Catwoman movie over a Harley Quinn movie any day.
She's too overrated. I'm not gonna compare to Deadpool.
Suicide Squad: Kill my Loyalty to DC
My love for the whole franchise and its characters is hanging by a thread
A symptom of Mary Sue writing is that the universe bends over backwards to make the Mary Sue appear better than she is. In other words: tearing down much beloved characters to show off how cool this new character is.
Reflect on this as you see Harley get or do something she has no right doing.
I never understood why they feel the need to make copies of original characters. Harley is just a female joker but worse. Batwoman is just a female batman but worse, and so on. If it was up to me, i would delete all sidekicks, they drag down the story anyway.
harley quinn should never be an anti hero. she works well in her original part as Joker’s sidekick/lover. Instead of having her develop into being a better person, it would be FAR more interesting if it was Batman trying to give her help and have her teeter between leaving Joker and being good, but choose to be bad and stay with Joker anyway.
arkham/og harley > modern harley quinn
That’s a horrible idea.
@@Strive_Higher nuh uh
@@MrMan2006yes it is you honestly think being the joker's sidekick is a good way for a character development
With all due respect, that wouldn’t be more interesting as her entire characterization would be stuck in a loop.
It would just be “you should become good.”
“nah, I’d prefer to be evil.”
There would be zero direction for her to go with her character and make readers ask “why should I care about this character, we already know she won’t turn good.”
You can say you prefer her to be a sidekick because they haven’t done enough to prove she can stand by herself, but saying doing nothing with a character would be more interesting than something is a hot take.
@@phabiorules dawg some characters don’t need that much development to be good. Look at the Joker, he barely develops as a character aside from his descent into madness, and he’s the second greatest villain of all time.
It leaves a bad taste in my mouth
I was all for her breaking off of the joker but there’s a weird attempt at redemption.
They try and brush her crimes under the rug because she was only doing it because of joker but that’s the definition of an ACCOMPLICE 🗣️🗣️🗣️
She isn’t a girlboss and shouldn’t be built up as a role model for young women
Keep her in the S-squad with the rest of the scum of the earth and king shark 😂
Actually, keep her out of the S-Squad because her being on it defeats the whole team’s concept with her plot armour. Do what Gotham Knights did and have her take up that psychiatrist job again; we know DC Comics don’t have a high opinion of them anyways,
1:38 kinda creepy, considering that Harley knew Nightwing when he was Robin (presumably a young kid).
Harley is somehow in the bat family while tim drake gets ignored the 10th time this week
Dang he really is the most forgotten robin (bars) put that boy in a coffin but seriously tim has the title of best detective out of all robins but is never used for detective type comics just there as a sidekick in case batman needs him 😢
@@ineedit1772 because DC RUIN TIM FOREVER
Jason Todd: First time?
The people who push Harley project themselves into her and want you to accept her i.e. them as a proxy thereby. It doesn't work because Harley is always going to be a villain, just like those who keep pushing her.
I understand why Harley Quinn is used so much she’s literally one of DC’s most popular characters the issue is DC and warner brothers heavily relies on there heaviest hitters for marketing which is why we have so much Batman Media it’s actually the same with why Spiderman gets so much attention
The DCAU is still far better than modern DC in general.
Honestly, I prefer overhyping the obscure DC stuff.
I find her to be
Really annoying
that’s quite literally intended to be a trait of her personality lol, she’s meant to be annoying
@@angiequinn9799 that
Doesn’t help anything
I thought it was about Scrappy Doo….
(TA DA DA DA DA DAAAAA! PUPPY POWER!)
It's becoming extremely overrated and annoying. They're trying so hard to make her the Deadpool of the DC Comics but it doesn't work. If we want a Deadpool version for DC Comics it should have been Plastic Man, or The Creeper, or Lobo their better option. People forgotten that Harley is villain and a nutjob who committed terrible crimes like Joker does. The more they keep pushing her, the less people won't give a shit about her and want the old one back if DC has the balls to do this. I hated the new version, but I always love the OG Harley Quinn which is BTAS.
not everybody wants to see the old version of Harley Quinn you will always be a public hearing there's no matter what version
The fact that they tried to turn her into a hero in the Injustice universe despite being Joker’s accomplice in the destruction of Metropolis was some major BS.
Oh really this ain't the first time where a villain gets a redemptions despite the fact that they committed atrocities
@@animezilla4486 it’s a trope that’s very annoying because they never actually face any real consequences. She never actually paid for her part in the deaths.
@@animezilla4486the fact that it’s happened more than once just proves the original poster’s point even more