Are Vegetarians Healthier than Omnivores? A Soho Forum Debate
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- Опубликовано: 28 май 2019
- Watch journalist Nina Teicholz face off against David L. Katz, MD, the founding director of the Yale-Griffin Prevention Research Center, at an event in New York City.
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There is little or no rigorous evidence that vegetarian/vegan diets are healthier than diets that include meat, eggs, and dairy.
That was the topic of a public debated hosted by the Soho Forum in New York City on May 13, 2019. It featured Nina Teicholz, author of The Big Fat Surprise, and David Katz, the founding director of Yale University's Yale-Griffin Prevention Research Center. Soho Forum director Gene Epstein moderated.
It was an Oxford-style debate, in which the audience votes on the resolution at the beginning and end of the event, and the side that gains the most ground is victorious. Katz prevailed in the debate by convincing 13 percent of audience members to change their minds.
Arguing for the affirmative was Nina Teicholz, whose 2014 book, The Big Fat Surprise, challenged the conventional wisdom on dietary fat. Teicholz's writing has also been published in The BMJ, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Atlantic, The Independent, The New Yorker, and The Los Angeles Times among others. Teicholz is the Executive Director of The Nutrition Coalition, a non-profit group that promotes evidence-based nutrition policy.
Reason's Alexis Garcia interviewed Teicholz in 2018. • How Big Government Bac...
David L. Katz, MD argued for the negative. He's the founding director of the Yale-Griffin Prevention Research Center, which practices community and alternative medicine, and is founder/president of the True Health Initiative, a non-profit organization established to promote a healthy diet and lifestyle. The holder of five U.S. patents, Katz has authored roughly 200 peer-reviewed publications and 16 books to date, including textbooks in both nutrition and preventive medicine.
The Soho Forum, which is sponsored by the Reason Foundation, is a monthly debate series at the SubCulture Theater in Manhattan's East Village.
Music: "Modum" by Kai Engle is licensed under a CC-BY creative commons license.
Produced by Todd Krainin.
![American Heart Association Bought Off! [with Nina Teicholz]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HYuySx9NzAI/mqdefault.jpg)
The best way to decide the winner, is to try both diets..
I eat fatty meat, i feel good, strong and full.
I eat vegetables (Specifically green)
and fruit, i feel bloating pain, cramps, I'm hungry have to eat all the time.
Based on my own experience, Nina made me better, Kartz made me fart..
Nina won!!!
After 8 years of being vegan, I got cancer. I cured myself being carnivore lipivore.
Farting is not bad rather it's an indication that the 55 Trillion Bacterial cells in Large Intestine and Small Intestine are feeding on the Fiber Rich Vegetables thus the Farting eventually when to do continue and Get Rid of Meat you will no longer have that farting issue. The only food for 55 Trillion Bacterial cells is Fibers which mainly available from Whole Food Plant Based diet.
Enjoy your 15 year shorter lifespan.
@@johndoe9362
Your stress over people eating meat or fatty meat is going short your life by 30 years, my family are all huge meat eater they usually die between 85-95 so what you said is irrelevant.
Thank you for the wrong info, my DNA and family history just fact checked you.
Note:
Vegetables might be good for you, not for me neat making me feel like a million box, by the way my count are also perfect including my lipid panel.
Thanks
@@amjedabdeljelil9038
I can see that English is not your primary language.
Even if you're being honest about the dietary and longevity pattern of your family, that's not proof that consuming meat is advisable.
Your family members would be the exception to the rule.
I’ve been carnivore for 2 years and it was the best decision I ever made regarding my health. I’ll never go back to eating any other way.
If eating meat/dairy is so bad, then why, after switching from whole grain fresh veg and no processed food, to low carb high fat ketogenic diet, did my health improve? 58 y/o female...allergies-gone. Arthritis-gone. Non alcoholic fatty liver disease-gone. Type II diabetes-gone. Sleep better. Energy better. Running 6 miles a day.
So, I wasn't eating crap before the switch and the changes occurred after.
@North American RUclipsr I totally agree. I believe our genetics determines our diet. I just resent people trying to tell me that a one-size-fits-all eating style is correct. If vegan, vegetarian, carnivore, fructarian--whatever works for someone, then that's what they need to do.
BTW, I can't eat grains--they are, for me, very inflammatory.
Leafy greens and other veg and berries are a big part of my diet. I grow my own, so I know what I am getting.
Also, I don't think the government or food manufacturers have our best interests at heart. Or a lot of diet doctors either. They have a bottom line and it is green.
@North American RUclipsr "whole grains" You should do a little more research.
Mila Bulic Agreed, the same happened to me! Ali svaka vrsta dijete traži odricanja!
Avoiding grains and cheese stops candida
David Evans Thanks David, according to your information, I’ll search your statement and also skip cheese eating as much as possible...
Dr Katz: almost all drug research is industry funded.
And therein lies one of the biggest problems in medicine today.
bcoleman71 I’m more concerned about the concentration of research within too few companies. The cost of FDA regs has wrecked competition and blocked market entry.
it's lays
Yes but he is not suggesting we should all take drugs. Hes saying we should use healthy food to prevent the needs for drugs by not getting disease in the first place. Nina on the other hand (the moron) is promoting a diet that is harmful to people, the animals and the planet. She is a truly disgusting person.
@@Smood47 that diet isn't harmful to people. I tried it for months and my cholesterol went down, my hdl cholesterol increased, my ldl cholesterol and triglycerides went down. My blood sugar dropped to normal, my blood pressure dropped to normal and my inflammation markers also went down. I did this over a period of months, had labs done at the beginning and end and every one of my blood markers got better. I don't get why people continue to criticize it when so many have done this successfully.
There is $60 billion/yr in federal research money for the industry. Many drugs wouldn't exist without it, including any antibiotic developed over the past 35-40 years.
I'm four years too late, but Nina rocked this. Her performance aged well.
She is grounded and informed. Love her.
I agree with that 100%
Her book on FAT is unbelievable informative. I lent it to every friend I have!
Not remotely. She has no arguments, fallacious nonsense, and is at complete variance with the facts
Too bad she didn't...lookin hagged, Carny Baby!!
His oxygen comparison for the anti nutrient question is absolutely ridiculous. We have NO OTHER CHOICE but to breathe oxygen to survive. We DO have other choices than eating nothing but plants foods for nutrients 🤦♀️ very basic stuff. How did this dude even get a doctors degree?
He literally ended off the answer with “who gives a damn?!” What the hell kind of answer is that?!
Agree 100%! Ridiculous!!! Yes, pure oxygen is toxic, but where do you find pure oxygen in nature? It's not natural. But EVERY broccoli and spinach contain anti-nutrients. So if you eat broccoli and spinach and other vegetables are NECESSARILY poisoning themselves. This Dr. Katz is a clown!!!
Daniel Mamede do you have human data to show that these are an issue?
Hi@@ucchi9829 , I don't know what you meant by "human data", but there are numerous studies showing the negative impact of plants on human health. sites warn about the enormous problem of oxalates (e.g. veganhealth.org/oxalate). For more info, please take a look here lowoxalate.info/ and here jevohealth.com/journal/vol2/iss3/4/
For a general ideia about anti-nutrients (although this article is very superficial), see this one: www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/anti-nutrients/
This one is also a short read: www.healthline.com/nutrition/how-to-reduce-antinutrients#section6
because vegan breathe their toxic farts
Julia,
You have no idea what you're talking about.
Carnivore 3 years. 51 year old male. Never felt better.
I've been a carnivore now for thirty-two years. I don't have to take supplements or extra vitamins. I'm now seventy-two and healthy.
Dang really? What made you wanna start?
IMO, when Katz in his conclusion raised the environmental impact argument, which he agreed to not bring up as part of this debate, he should have been disqualified. Not allowing Teicholz any opportunity to respond to that claim was unfair, and raising arguments they'd agreed to leave out indicates Katz's dishonesty as I see it.
This is a crucial point.
@@yuehhtewbb427 Katz is also boring as hell
Plant a tree sucker.
Vegans are intellectually dishonest and void of morals, so I'm glad he broke his promise, and showed the true nature of his ideology.
Vegans tactic 101, if you can't support your claim with proper science, then you got 2 choices.either lie or bring up ethics
I used to be vegetarian, but now I’m Presbyterian
I'm reading comments here that Teicholz appearance has deteriorated over the last few years, and she is haggard. Are you all insane? The woman is 54 years old and looks great for someone who is 54.
Eric K yes we all age...lol. Funny that!!! I think she looks beautiful, I’m 52 - I wish I looked that good. I seriously thought she was in her late 30s.
Right on.
Look up Mimi Kirk
54? She looks much younger!
@@LuisAldamiz She is 54 for sure!
We need more debates like this. We definitely need more Ninas to expose the lies we have been fed by the big corpos and earth worshipers.
Earth worshippers? WTF, Fatso? So you're an Earth Hater then? Hahahaha.....too much saturated fat on the gray matter, Zeke.
Why do vegetarians constantly insult people? Seems so aggressive and pointless.
They don't get their yearly "matanza" (pig slaughter) dose of adrenaline, I guess. *smirk*
Your face? idk
Because they have no facts and are grumpy from malnourishment
Vegans are similar to leftists. Soft brain that is easily manipulated and they will not change even when shown the truth.
I tried vegan two years ago and it had it's benefits but left me very weak and non-productive. I tried Keto this year and now testing carnivore. It's amazing compared to my experience with vegan.
Lack of healthy fats for normal brain function, I'm not even joking!
I just looked this up. The Lyon study was only done in France. This study was seriously flawed as well. The control group's initial dietary intake was not measured, only assumed. Approximately half of the control group was not present during the final assessment either.
No study measures diet long term.
It's all psuedoscience
At least there was a study, more than we can say for carnie, paleo and keto. More Kool-aid, Bubba?....
You do realize that the reason vegetarian studies are made is that many groups linked to either processed food, farming or pharmaceuticals fund them. And where do people who do these studies end up getting work in the future? Those same companies. You dont need to find evidence of hard corruption in academia, just soft corruption. Its the same as to why politicians vote for funding for big banks and companies and end up working for them@@ceeemm1901
Yeah the control group was given advice and wasn't monitored until 46 months later. So to call it a randomized clinical trail is absurd. It's basically a gloried epidemiological study.
Yes so the fact that he’s smugly talking about it falsely is very frustrating.
Katz behaved poorly throughout . Even at the end he was ready to avoid shaking hands if possible, but Nina made it impossible for him. She certainly came across better. He had no class.
He's just sour he got BTFO by a journalist.
Vegans are blind followers of a RELIGION NOT SCIENCE! Humans became human by eating meats! There is absolutely no need for any carbohydrates in the human diet!
some Jewish men will not shake a woman's hand. I don't like to shake a man's hand.
@Sheri JK
Katz is just an asinine follower of the vegan religion! No class and rude too!
@@thalesnemo2841 Sad. then we should pray for him
Notice how testy and aggressive Dr. Katz is... High carb/sugar diets are well correlated with mood disorders... I've noticed that several Vegan Guru's have simmering anger issues.
Their only anger is against the bull headed attitudes of carnivores who want to abuse animals.
Joe Schmoe Translation: Human nutrition and health is not the real issue for some people.
FYI, animals in the wild don’t go to nursing homes when they get old or sick or lame. They starve or die of exposure or get eaten alive by predators..
You are free to eat as you please. But as we just saw you are on shaky ground if you claim vegan diets are healthier than diets that include animal products,so you must introduce half thought through ethical issues.
katz is a con man shill
Maybe we're angry because we're tired of hearing so many lies, like saturated fat is good for you, and watching people lose years off their lives as a result. This is basic stuff. Katz presents tons of the highest quality evidence. To respond only with "Science is imperfect and nobody in the audience can read these studies while sitting here" is not much of a reply. Where is the evidence overturning Katz thesis? Very little offered from Nina.
@Wo Long Nonsense.... That claim is by Dr. Ornish with just a handful of his patients . He also concurrently did other interventions with the same people... In reality, a low carb high fat diet has been shown to reverse diabetes... The single biggest risk factor for heart disease is diabetes...
Dude spent his first 10 minutes complaining about being at a “disadvantage” and saying absolutely nothing. He’s going on and on and on. Nothing nothing nothing.
he was explaining the burden of proving a negative. was that too hard for you to follow?
@@theserna Yeah complaining
Diandra gomez Explaining vs. Complaining. Words mean things. You can’t prove that God doesn’t exist for example. Pretty easy to follow but then again... I’m not a dumbass.
@@theserna yeah complaining
@@theserna Yup complaining . Just like you , ya dumbass
Did she just suggest that since 1970 we have been trying to follow "These" plant-based guidelines, and that's why we are seeing so much heart-disease, diabetes, cancer and obesity? My Oh My!
No she didn't suggest that. She showed a graph that depicts lower meat consumption in America while all those metabolic diseases are increasing in frequency.
*Whatever else may be the problem, meat certainly isn't it.*
@el-bo V
No , idiot.
Read meat and dairy are not being consumed more that they were. In fact they are consumed less. How moronic do you have to be to suggest that eggs meat and dairy are the problem? You know what has ? Seed oils and HFCS. Gee I wonder if what entered our food supply at the same time the chronic disease epidemic started might be the cause? Fructose and PUFA are not things you want much of in the human diet unless you think fatty liver, heart disease and cancer are a good idea.
I also love the comments the problem is that the other food are added and they the "bad food" just was not cut out enough...LOL PUFA and refined carbs causes you to eat more.
@@yuehhtewbb427 >>"No she didn't suggest that.">She showed a graph that depicts lower meat consumption in America while all those metabolic diseases are increasing in frequency."
@Dr Grey Eating TO MUCH of everything can be a problem! Mixing it all, and using quality products and reducing all snacking and sugars is the way to go and is the way that the rest of the world does things!!
@@yuehhtewbb427 Some meats are lower, but some are higher, like chicken. For all meat products put together, consumption is now higher than ever.
www.wri.org/blog/2018/01/2018-will-see-high-meat-consumption-us-american-diet-shifting
I’ve been listen to Katz for 10 minutes and all he has done is condescendingly parse the resolution 😅😅
The guy seems to ramble without identifying fact. The girl seemed to clearly Identify holes in the guys argument. She wins
The problem with citing Ornish and Barnard is that if you look at their methodologies, the people on the plant based diets got health coaches, and all kinds of guidance (plus with Ornish supplements, mediation, abeyance of smoking and alcohol, etc) where the control group omnivore diets didn't get any support. The omnivores were basically eating SAD- standard American Diets- which had a lot of other items in them other than meat. These people were still drinking soda, and eating french fires, ice cream, etc. So these studies that Katz cites have an inherent performance and healthy user bias in them since the researchers set up the methodologies in such a way to confirm their preconceived diets. Using standard American diets as a control that are loaded with a lot of other crap also adds a lot of confounders. Now what would be a more meaningful study is where both the vegan and the omnivore diet were healthy whole food diets where both groups got the same level of support so that there was no performance or healthy user bias. So the only difference between the two groups would be whether or not, a person ate meat. No such study has really been done, especially with well sourced antibiotic free meat.
Citing Blue Zones also is problematic. For example, if you actually look at the Japanese studies from the 1990's and pre-world War 2 records of Okinawan diets, Okinawans ate a lot more meat than other Japanese people. What confuses a lot of people is that on Okinawa there were historically two dietary patterns: An everyday diet and a festival day diet. The every day was high in carbohydrates specifically sweet potatoes. While the festival days diet were high in meat consumption especially pork. The thing is that on Okinawa they celebrated a lot of festivals for ancestral spirits, Agricultural festivals, Festivals for Warding Off Evil Spirits, and Festivals of Foreign Gods. This is documented in this paper: citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.695.3883&rep=rep1&type=pdf . There were over 120 festival days. So, in other words, Okinawan ate and still eat a lot of meat. Another point is that the breed of pig introduced to Okinawa in 1392 was a lard pig, so Okinawans used lard as their primary cooking oil. Dan Buettner's assertion that canola oil was the commonly used cooking oil is pretty farcical, since canola is a relatively new creation, and rape seeds weren't cultivated on the Okinawan islands.
POST VEGANISM Then look at the Adventist health studies.
But it’s funny how people with little to no evidence that omnivorism is healthy than vegetarianism criticise the evidence for vegetarianism instead of looking at their own lack of evidence.
@@FreedomPhilosophyTV LOL..studies from Seventh Day Adventists structured to support their religious beliefs that meat makes one masturbate and thus we all must eat grains so we won't wank ourselves to hell. Sorry pretty much everything that comes out of Loma Linda is nonsense. Here's a good critique: letthemeatmeat.com/post/672141096/survey-says-vegetarian-adventists-in-a-jolly-mood
"Now what would be a more meaningful study is where both the vegan and the omnivore diet were healthy whole food diets where both groups got the same level of support so that there was no performance or healthy user bias. So the only difference between the two groups would be whether or not, a person ate meat."
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27253526
Actually, the type of study that you describe above has been done. Here is one example that. In this study both of the groups did have a healthy diet: one being a diet from the Korean Diabetes Association and the other one being a vegan diet. Please note that the vegan group did not get extra diabetes education, health coaches, supplements, exercise regiment or any special treatment. And as you can see, the vegan diet had better glycemic control than the Korean Diabetes Association diet when measuring the hemoglobin A1c (a 3 month average of blood sugar control). The vegan group had a -0.5% reduction vs a -0.2% reduction in the diabetes diet group. The bigger the reduction in A1c=better diabetes sugar control. And when you take into account only participants with high compliance (ie. high adherence to the vegan diet and high adherence to the diabetic diet): the glycemic control was even better in the vegan group -0.9% vs -0.3% reductions in hemoglobin A1c.
@@REGENETARIANISMtry to argue this, mendelian randomization trials done on genes coding for low cholesterol have concluded that there was no heart disease in those individuals. Dietary cholesterol is linked to serum cholesterol too. Please don't promote taking feed out of poor countries to feed animals for selfish reason.
The problem with arguing with science deniers is they are idiots and will never wake up. If you eat WFPB you will NOT get heart disease. the number 1 killer of man!
Katz conflicts of interest are pretty damning, I don't understand how anyone can take him seriously.
Don't trust what he says then, look at the randomized control trials and the meta analysis, study techniques that even that misguided woman deems as the most reliable.
The study that he shows is not a portfolio of all his studies, it's not his.
As for the conflict of interest, if David L. Katz takes money from the dairy industry for studies, So I don't think he is vegan.
@@joannot6706 I did, they are all flawed. Some of them consider weak endpoints like LDL levels, some have very weak design, others simply don't support his hypothesis. Point me to one that you find convincing.
That's really all that Katz had to do here: present one convincing study that supports his hypothesis and win the debate. Instead he spent his time complaining about various things like the framing of the debate (rightfully in some ways, but he accepted it already!) until he didn't have time to do much else but flip through the slides.
@@joannot6706 Take the Lyon Diet Heart study for instance. Dr. Katz brings it up as an argument in favor of veganism didn't use a vegan diet for either group, the intervention group received some sort of Mediterranean diet which contains about 4x the meat that the AHA wants you to eat. By the way the experiment showed no difference in the LDL levels although mortality was significantly higher in the control group.
@@r4ndomboy Well first, no, using just one study even a good one is not great, that's why meta analysis are the best, it's because it's many many things. which is better than 1 single one and him showing many meta analysis is great.
And second, no you are lying, meta analysis are combining many many studies, they are not all flawed.
And what do you mean weak end points like ldl levels? I genuinely don't understand.
@@joannot6706 You can't trust a meta-analysis unless you trust the underlying studies. Which meta-analysis did you find particularly convincing? Meta-analysis studies are very hard to pull off convincingly as they combine studies with very different designs. Unfortunately unless you dig deeply into all the references and understand everything well enough you can't make up your own mind on the topic - unless of course you carefully read what opposing sides have to say about things with an open mind. Are you familiar with Nina's work? If you read some of her posts or watch some of her lectures it might give you a better idea on where she's coming from rather than the short amount of time she had in this video.
My other point was about the way in which the outcome of some studies is judged. Because of the prevailing opinion that LDL - the so-called "bad cholesterol" is a good marker for heart disease, it's often used to assert the outcome of a study instead of looking at actual heart disease. To be fair, it's not easy to look at heart disease but LDL is definitely not the way to do it. All cause mortality is generally my favorite metric as some interventions might for instance reduce cardiovascular events slightly but increase cancer rates.
I really recommend this video on why nutritional science is so hard to anyone with an interest in the topic. ruclips.net/video/xRAw7yeDO-c/видео.html&t
When you show up to a public debate, you have already agreed to the proposition. To stand up there and whine about it is like the undergraduate who didn’t read the syllabus, then tries to wheedle extra points on the exam because she ‘tried really hard’.
Katz is defending the affirmative position that science shows veganism/vegetarianism to be a superior diet. His bullshit statement that Teicholz has to ‘prove there is no evidence’ is shifting the burden of proof. She has already put forward the statements from major dietary guideline committees, whose members are known to be veggie-friendly but who could find no high quality scientific data comparable to traditional meaty diets. Katz loses the debate automatically if he can’t show quality evidence. This is a debate on the science, not on which diet makes Katz happy.
And, he’s an asshole, which makes him a loser as a human as well as a scientific fraud.
I agree with you 1000%! She was polished and poised for this debate, and he was a flipping wreck. I mean just look at his slides, that alone should tell someone he put little to no effort in preparing for this debate or taking it seriously. His crude behavior was bazaar and very unacademic.
Totally agree. He is a whiner and a bad loser from the beginning. He is doing this because he know what we know. That he is wrong and his position is weak from the beginning.
@@jbydlmdmIaw
You're not smart.
@@puravida1159
You're not intelligent.
@@jbydlmdmIawagreed. His PowerPoint was like a high school presentation he did the night before. Also, when he sits down he's out of breath and drinks a ton of water. His weak, breathy voice with almost no inflection is a sign his restrictive diet is failing him too
Love Nina ! she was a vegetarian for twenty years before studying the science behind the food we eat. Watch her other videos on red meat, vegetable oils and the history of why we have the standard American diet pushed on us. I'm enjoying my ribeye while she crushes that little insignificant vegan twerp.
She's not an expert. Probably shouldn't take dietary advice from her. Especially with how little she knows.
Ucchi I beg your pardon? Did you listen to the debate? The expert was an embarrassment. He sounded I’ll prepared and foolish. She did a great job pointing out the various industries that line his pockets and are killing Americans. Have you checked the rates of obesity and diabetes in the US? Nina is an expert through thousands of studies done on the subject. She has spent thousands of hours looking for actual proof and didn’t find any supporting that would stand up under peer review..Your GP barely had 10 hours of nutrition education in school yet these people are the front line when we get sick from the Standard American Diets.. Check out videos from Dr. Jason Fung , Dr. Ken Berry .
@@MrSharkster59 Well I don't agree that she identified any industry as being an intermediary for deaths of Americans. Funny enough Nina has some undisclosed conflicts of interest thedietwars.com/nina-teicholz-misleads-readers-by-chronically-failing-to-disclose-how-her-work-is-financially-supported/?ReviveOldPost&ReviveOldPost .
I have looked at obesity rates in the US and what might be some intermediaries. But, Kevin Bass again has another good article on this that helps elucidate what Nina does not:
1.
thedietwars.com/added-sugar-intake-in-the-united-states-is-going-down-shown-using-all-four-available-relevant-datasets-usda-un-fao-nhanes-and-corporate-sales-data/?ReviveOldPost&ReviveOldPost
2.
thedietwars.com/guidelines/
Nina is not an expert. She's not trained in Academia either.
Not sure if you know what peer review means.
Here is a critique of her entire book if interested: thescienceofnutrition.wordpress.com/2014/08/10/the-big-fat-surprise-a-critical-review-part-1/
Not sure what the point about Physicians is. Seems irrelevant.
Fung and Berry are quacks IMO. Neither of them are scientists. Both are quacks in the field their in.
Enjoy your clogged arteries and heart disease among many others. Enjoy all of your meds too.
She was not a vegetarian or at least she doesn’t know what a vegetarian is. She said to Sanjay Gupta: “Actually I was a vegetarian, I ate stir fried veggies and chicken every day”. Great person to take dietary advice from ☺️
What we are eating in these modern times which we didn't 100 years ago are: chemical additives as in preservatives, plastics, pesticides, hybrid concentration of glutens in bread. Obviously it isn't a vegan verses meat issue here, its whole food versus - tainted foods (which includes tainted meats)
Why are you saying "lady"? Katz is the one arguing for a vegan diet. That's zero meat, milk, eggs or any animal products.
this is why i follow the paleo diet of dr wahls
Yea but no, paleo diet isn't a paleo diet at all ... modernized and way off of what paleo really was. It's just another "too much meat diet" which creates cancer causing Tmao and IGF-1. Animal products today have antibiotics, growth hormones, and create bad gut biome in people. I will eat meat but at most a couple times a week. Nuts can replace meat, as can beans, sweet potatoes, Avocado. Plants first then the decadent stuff, like animal flesh as the last portion of the meal. It just keeps your insides clean and healthy that way.
@@thinkinoutloud.1 i eat plenty of meat, and grass fed organic meats, including the organ meats
@@thinkinoutloud.1 you seem to make the incorrect assumption that we disagree on the types of meat to eat. i eat animal that is raised how it was meant to eat.
Bravo to Nina Teichholz for showing the flaws in nutritional science, and how selective use of unreliable data to generate guidelines has caused enormous harm. It seemed to me that David Katz did not even try to refute Ms. Teichholz. Despite his enormous arrogance and self-importance, he seemed defeated. His presentation was lazy and unconvincing. I think he is seeing how his whole life's work is being dismantled by the tenacity of people like Ms. Teichholz who are showing that entire careers have been based on biases, wishful thinking, and industry funding.
he didn't need to refute anything she said because she was making claims unrelated to the resolution. had he not been constrained due to the ridiculous parameters of the resolution and was instead allowed to debate her in-depth on the science he would've wiped the floor with her and her tobacco-industry tried and tested methods of doubt sowing. and if he "seemed defeated", go ahead and watch the last minute of the video wherein he was announced as the winner of the debate by virtue of a higher change of percentage of voting pre-debate vs. post-debate (despite the meat shill having a larger echo-chambered fanbase in the audience). he probably seemed dejected that so many idiots, such as yourself, clung to her bullshit despite his overwhelmingly convincing case for the negative position of the resolution
@@taintmueslix Her opening was enough to end the debate. Nutritional epidemiology is based on trash data that's unreliable, and modern metabolic disease is not the result of animal products which humans have consumed without issue for thousands of years.
@@Kenshin0011 spoken like a true keto bot. enjoy your Inuit diet and corresponding longevity
Most of her rebutles were flat out lies. Nori (seaweed) gives you 80% of your value in b12 from just one single sheet. Even we acknowledge that we remove some b12 by our current cleanliness practices, there are still ways to get these nutrients
She argued we only had access to a vegan or plant based diet for the last 20 years. Really, we didn't know how to grow or harvest plants before than.
Her other argument was about you need to supplement on a vegan diet. Even if true, which people have proven it's not, then why are vitamins added to milk and other dairy or meat based products? I can only fathom it's because you don't get enough vitamins from meat based product.
For all parties, debates are a hard choice to decide what to say which is why I feel the way we do debates suck. If someone gets completely off topic you now have to decide to address that new thing that has no relevance to the original topic or stick with you're reponse to the topic. Even then if he did destroy her whole rebutle, maybe he said some misinformation that now she can't back up because her turn is forever done. Then of course no one is there on stage looking this up what they say and then questioning the person on it. One person can say that's a lie and that's that. No further investigating is done so we must think it's true.
@@taintmueslix Woah, didn't know the nutritional reality of the entire human race can be boiled down to being a "keto bot". Nice!
He was asked to fight left handed? No he advocated a plant based diet and is now having to backtrack because he realizes there's not even any epidemiology to support his position.
What an ironic thing to say. Your queen got schooled. You, like her, can keep ignoring the mountain of evidence though.
I respect Nina Teicholz even more after this debate.
The Golestan Dairy Food Intake Study was reported in 2017 in the J. of Epidemiology. It followed more than 42,000 people in Iran for 11 years eating dairy. Was funded by The National Cancer Institute, the NIH, several universities, including Harvard and an international cancer research org. Result was that people eating dairy, including full fat dairy, had a significantly lower all cause mortality, and a 28% reduction in cardiovascular disease mortality. Cheese and yogurt eaters had significant reductions in all cause mortality. People in the highest quintile had the most benefits! There was no increase in cancer.
Compared to what big guy?
Maybe because of a lack of food in Iran maybe do the same study in a more developed country
Genetics loads the gun. Lifestyle pulls the trigger.
Epigenetics to the rescue
@@glacialimpala
Hopefully that; not the wreck you.
@K. C.W
As it applies to Trump's genetics, I might agree.
Our genetics were developed over the time humans have walked the planet. All these metabolic illnesses have only become a real problem over the last 60 years. It’s not genetics but changes in nutrition and pollution that are the probable problem. Lifestyle is the loaded gun and the trigger
@mike davidson
I also wished you knew earlier. Your spelling and grammar might be easier to decipher.
Once I heard that David is sponsored by the food industry, any credibility immediately took a nose dive
Jeff H but that’s if you leave it to Nina to convince you. You’d need to check his background yourself and not rely on someone who clearly has an industry agenda, which by the way, she is being sponsored by the industry she represents.
@@BendeMark you obviously missed the part where she stated the complete opposite. Keep on making it up.
Is it possible the person that started it all, Ancel Keys, was conflicted. Either he was supporting Procter & Gamble who had invested a lot of money in seed oil (Crisco) or realized it would be political suicide to blame seed oil.
Ken Marriott either way someone has a lot to answer for. Look at the current debate around the next set of food guidelines.
@@BendeMark Katz wrote 2 shill reviews on HuffPo for a sci-fi novel that he himself had written under another name.
So Katz can't provide any evidence that vegetarian/veganism is healthier than omnivore, so all he can do is play with words.
Knighton Library Yeah I’m at the beginning and he’s putting me to sleep with his credentials! Um......who cares about that? Nina was jam packed with good information!
What information did she provide?
HAHAHAHA...Kats proceeds to literally cite DOZENS of actual PubMed articles (RCTs, meta analyses, etc) and yet you say he "can't provide evidence." Did you not listen you any of the presentation? The cognitive dissonance among your crowd is insane. Do you also believe the earth is flat and that we didn't go to the moon?
Hey, did you guys know he accepted the terms of the debate? He only mentioned it 5 times while complaining about the terms of the debate.
He's really fighting left handed here. Did you know that he is actually right handed, which means that fighting left handed is very difficult for him.
@@Watcher4187, he's also just putting his money where his convictions are, and the fact that 100% of his investments hinge on positive vegans study outcomes is circumstantial. Nothing suspicious here folks, he just shoved all in pre-flop. Mentioning potential problems with RCTs completely explains why none of his observational study results have been replicated. No way he's bluffing.
You don't think the terms are important to emphasize when considering the issues he raised?
Ex-bartender turned Certified Crystal Ball-gazer prove to me that she isn’t an animal agriculture shill
@@harvenius Nina has plenty of presentations where she declares her conflicts of interest - apart from being the author of a very interesting book called the big fat surprise, she has no industry or commercial affiliations
As a vegan my adult daughter’s hair fell out and experienced depression and anxiety problems. She is healthy now eating no carbs!!! As a meat and green veggie eater I was extremely healthy and fit, once I bought into the low fat, high carb, veggie and fruit diet and ate that way for years, I became overweight with extreme cardiovascular issues. I am IF and back to eating grass fed meats, seafood and green leafy veggies and I am almost off all my meds and losing weight!
😂 riiiight
was it mostly eating heavily processed vegan junk food - if so probably explains why. Refined sugar is vegan, too :p Always choose Whole Food.
Make sure the kind of veggies you eat have low oxalates.
It is the fat and the oils that you eat with the carbs that causes problems.
@@VOLightPortalyou can eat refined sugar you just could not eat it in the presence of oils and fats, that is a recipe for disaster.
This gentleman is very good at debating and defending lies and mis-Information. He talks in circles. He lost me when Nina quoted the HORRIBLE things he said about her....how is that called for in the professional field ?? Oh, it is not. When people are wrong they attack....he showed his true colors and his zero tolerance for professionalism before opening his mouth. His constant whining about not getting a fair shake at the debate was incredibly childish.
Enjoy all of your diseases from what you're eating. You've earned it 👏
Strange when I increased my vegetables, fruits, grains I got sick, ( never was a candy soda drinker but loved fruit juice and smoothies) but when I cut all the fruit and grains as well as cut down to barely any vegetables my health improved drastically.
@@laymanlogic that's temporary...wait until you see what happens in the future.
@@laymanlogic medical professionals, citizens, scientists and the like who have been on KETO and Carnivore for over 15 years FEEL AMAZING and have never been healthier. There will always be naysayers....and then there are healthy happy people
@@robertcohen8554 your anger is caused by grains....pls take it elsewhere; your comments speaks volumes
KATS GOT OWNED. Period. And I have no horse in this race...I eat whatever I want, whenever want. That was really pathetic by him. Nice job Nina showing up with actual facts and an actual argument.
How so?
Of course you have a horse in this race since you admit you eat whatever you want whenever you want.. in other words,the very point tha Nina was trying to argue.
@@BillMcHalehow does her point that saturated fats aren’t bad for you mean she’s advocating for careless eating?
@@BillMcHaleher point was you have to eat meat not to eat whatever you want
@@danielaminnekhanova3432 No one has to eat meat, and find me certified nutritionists who make those claims? the current best evidence is okay with some meat (mostly poultry) and fish, but far and away a mostly plant centric diet.
So he doesn't really have facts just word play and ad hominem attacks. He obviously doesn't understand "proving a negative." If he has facts then he shouldn't use word play
It's hard to dismiss the rude behavior and closed body language or Dr. Katz. Science requires objectivity and an open mind. Neither of which he seems to have.
I have greatly benefited from a keto diet, but katz made nothing other logically consistent points.
You're not suppose to be open mined in a debate, the opposite is true. Thats the audiences job.
Katz is a hack. Or should I say, "sh1tH@ck"?
@Wo Long both are good.
David Katz is sleazy as hell. His answer to the anti-nutrients question was so absurd, as was his response to his conflicts of interests and so many others. I found this debate disappointing. Teicholz seems earnest and interested in the science, whereas Katz is interested in pushing his agenda. I’d like to see Teicholz debate a person with integrity. Also, I guess I had Mark Bittman all wrong. I used to really like him until watching this.
That is the way David Katz came across to me: sleazy, agenda-driven, filled with vague ideas and words, backed-up by poor data. But like usual, these vague words swayed the audience. We have the leisure of watching this after the fact, where the sleaze of Katz really bubbles to the surface.
Poor guy he has to fight left handed. I think he just knows he's fighting a losing battle. Nothing like making excuses before you even start.
how does he have to fight left handed?? what disadvantage is he at? he's totally wrong
Heather Austin,
You have no idea what you're talking about.
You really needed someone to tell you that.
Props to both Teicholz and Katz for putting on an enjoyable debate. I was the questioner regarding NHANES and all cause mortality at 1:08:53 . I'm especially interested in LDL cholesterol and how it applies toward longevity (as per my research).
I am not at all interested in that.
www.statinnation.net/blog/2018/7/19/higher-cholesterol-builds-muscle
David Feldman, thanks for all that you do!
Awesome question... I think people don’t realize who you are !!! 😁 By the way, I got the best life insurance rate possible after using your cholesterol protocol!!! Thanks for all amazing work you do!
Dave Feldman I don’t know who you are and I understood why you asked it. Probably 1 of 2 intelligent questions asked. The one fanboy in the audience made me cringe.
Saying that if you take the SAD you would be better off adding more plants than more meats is a nonsense argument. The whole point is to RESTRICT harmful foods first and then ask which is more beneficial plant or animal. Katz is trying to pull a sleight of hand using the SAD as his control group rather than a predominantly animal based diet.
That’s why he keeps going back to defining and parsing the resolution. He doesn’t want to debate against an animal based diet; he only wants to pull apart the SAD. weak.
Nina is only right. She has the facts, and is interested in telling the truth. That's the good news. Katz is a real.... dissembler.
So let me get this straight, Katz hears Nina's speech and then basically concedes.
After this he then plays word games trying to rescue his sinking argument.
All this only a few minutes into him standing up and starting to speak.
Wrong moron.
The actual content of these "omnivore" diets, is never stated, so can't draw any conclusions.
David Katz based his arguments by assuming routine consumption of meats/eggs as omnivore diets. But yes, all papers quoted by the both the speakers, in all likelihood, didn't make that same assumption about vegetarian/omnivore diets.
You don't need to bring up "content" if it's not necessary in destroying the opposite side's perspectives. All you need is to point out flaws or fallacies.
When the moderator has to correct your lies, perhaps we call a forfeit.
She is amazing, and unfortunately looks really stressed from meeting him after his public attacks.
Julian Farquhar : She did fantastic . And considering she doesn't have a medical degree, she presented like she did!
Gary Toth She has a science journalist so that’s her thing
Awkward meet up right there. "He, remember when you called me an animal?" haha
public attacks? that's normal hes a vegan🙄
Best quote from Dr. Katz: "There is more than one way to eating badly. And the american public is committed to exploring them all."
Yep, vegan is def one of them
Actually, it's a seriously STUPID comment. He seems to have a low opinion of Americans who largely follow the governments "food pyramid" which is largely invented by idiots like Katz.
@@martspeyers
Hell yes!
True. One of them being severely lacking in B12 for example but called "healthy". RCT here and there but let's just think what we ate during most of human evolution before agriculture revolution. Yeah. Animals. because most plants we eat today simply did not exist. All plants we eat today are "human made" and didn't exist that way. Especially fruit was much more fibrous, less "meaty" and less sweet.
@@beginner1991 All animals are "human made", did you know that all American large scale commercial cows comes from the sperm of 2 cows? Just google: "Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just 2 Bulls. That's Not Good"
And those animals are just as hybrid as any plants are, that in it self isn't an argument for it being good or bad, its a nature fallacy to claim the opposite.
Its not lacking in B12 when a diet can be supplemented, just like the milk is supplemented with D vitamin, Iodine for the tits and salt and so on. Don't tell yourself that a non vegan diet isn't supplemented.
54:17 - Says the vegan: "You know what's bad? Imbalance is bad."
Which is precisely the thing I've been saying to vegans for the 24 years I've been a professional chef.
C'est la douce saveur du triomphe.
Bien dit, Monsieur le Chef.
Bon mot, M. Spooner.
Balance is determined by inertia force and motion, fug all to do with adding slightly toxic cellulose to an otherwise nutrient dense plate. Stupid nonsensical use of language.
Imbalance? What does that even mean?
Almost all drug research has been funded by industry. That's what he said. And what does that tell an intelligent person.
when you fund a research you can prevent it from being published if its not to your liking, that why they fund it...
Um... $60 billion in annual federal research money, doesn't count?
Yeah, that multi billion dollar industry, Big Broccoli, is funding all the vegan propaganda studies.That's why everyone is turning up at the hospital from eating too much fruit and vegetables. If only the meat, dairy and egg industry could just get a few pennies together they could get the truth out about health......
Been a carnivore for an entire month and have started my second month. I loss my lower back pain, I sleep thru the night, I have loss 12 pounds, and I just feel better. My hunger is in check I don't snack I stay satisfied thru the day. Animal base diet works great for me.
If carnivore diet has worked for you well and vegan diet worked for vegans well. It's further proof that we humans are omnivores.
An omnivore consumes a variety of both.
Yes, some humans do better on more plant-rich diet, while others thrive on a diet consisting more of animal foods. Additionally, there are those who do very well consuming a variety of both plant- and animal produce. NOT ONE DIET FOR ALL.
Weston Price found that none of the diets of healthy, isolated people groups over the world was vegan or low fat. All included some forms of animal-&fermented foods.
Carnivore is essentially a huge elimination diet... the benefits could be the result of removing one or more other food from your diet that caused issue, does not prove that carnivore is best for you long term.
This guy finally admits that US consumption of plant foods is up, and consumption of animal foods is down. He was dishonest about that fact at first. Of course, the question then becomes, "if we are eating more plants and less animal foods, then why is heart disease, cancer, diabetes and almost very other disease going up up up?"
I think the point he made was that consumption of healthy forms of fruits and vegetables didn't go up, but not so healthy forms (refined grains, fried potatoes, ketchup, etc.) did. And he said there's been a slight decline in chronic disease associated with the trend to eat a bit less meat.
T Joe>> But he's wrong, and that's the real point. The consumption of fruits and vegetables has gone up in developed countries, and the consumption of animal products has gone down in the last 40 years. And that's due to the bogus "studies'' mostly done in the 1980s and 90s that painted fat and animal protein as dangerous. There has been a small decline in some chronic diseases and conditions, like heart disease, certain cancers and stroke, and an increase in others, like diabetes, auto-immune disorders such as MS, lupus and ALS, obesity and others.
The reason for a decrease in heart disease and certain cancers can be laid directly at the feet of a sharp decrease in cigarette smoking. If you are saying that eating less meat or more plant foods is responsible for the decline in certain diseases and conditions, then that trend must also take the blame for the increase in the others that are skyrocketing, like diabetes and obesity. You can't have it both ways.
@@banishedfromthedwarfplanet530 Do you believe in epidemiology?
NamesChuck>> That's an odd question, isn't it? Epidemiology exists, so of course I believe in it. It's like asking someone if they believe in anthropology, or politics or religion. They all obviously exist, so who wouldn't believe in them? If there was a point to your question, you need to formulate it a bit better; otherwise it really doesn't mean anything.
@@banishedfromthedwarfplanet530 I should have been more clear. Do you believe that epidemiology works?
He spent the entire time bitching about the rules of the debate.... Then violates them at the end. lol
rhetoric. this is the foundation of all these hacks. thank god for the internet as we are able to finally reach the truth
I wish she would stop attacking his character. This isn't how you win a debate.
She called out all the times he insulted her character from a pulpit of mass media and GOVERNMENTAL platforms. How is this "attacking his character"? It's telling basic truths about his character, if you consider this an attack then you must consider his behavior to be excusable on some level?
@@yuehhtewbb427 Teicholz always resorts to personal attacks when confronted with evidence.
yuehh tewbb lmao, that’s what happens when no arguments or science are present, only ad hominems become available. Science doesn’t lie my friend, shady tactics won’t win the debate here lol
David L. Katz makes a living as a con man. He looks like he has one foot in the grave, perhaps is it's his plant diet doing that.
@@simongold2739 lol miss piggy hurling insults
after 17 years of vegetarianism(of course i adopted no fat or the lowest amount possible), i conclude that suffering is no longer an option.First of all I was never satisfied than IBS ,allergies,constant sugar cravings, chocolate dependency, snaking or i would call it CONSTANT EATING,were part of my daily routine.As soon I introduced fat everything changed,all of the above disappear,( I always intended to have 2 or 3 meals but was not possible because of the carbs)AND I CAN HAVE AN INTERMITTENT FAST BETWEEN 14-20 HOURS.........so easy to achieve that! I really have major questions regarding doctors and the so called science of nutrition................................. so much bs............................just follow the money
It's not possible. Even if you throw the cooking oil out of the equation, there is still fat in the vegetable. I tried so far:keto, carnivore, ominivore, pescatarian, vegan, vegan keto. The kind of diet that worked best for me was..... vegan diet.
BUT, and this is a big but, you can't just get rid of fat altogether, it's not possible. Even gladiators, aka barley boys back in the Ancient Roman time ate a shit ton of fat, like olive oil.
Same here! I had all the issues you mention + PCOS during my 35 yrs of vegetarian life (home cooking, no processed food). Keto and 1 or 2 meals a day solved them all. I am 67 yer old. My GP cannot believe my lab results there are no meds in my house...
.
Our family went vegetarian for 2 years when we all started getting sickly and worn out. We decided to eat meat only on Sundays. But everyone felt so satisfied on Sundays that we cooked extra so we could have meat on Mondays as well. Then on Tuesdays.... and that was the end of that nonsense.
Years later some of the kids came to the Keto diet and informed the rest. Now every one of us is Keto/carni and we are all super healthy and have plenty of energy.
The vegan diet is not about results. It is all about puritanism, narcissism, selfies, self-worship, virtue-signaling, and malnutrition. A person has to "convert" to veganism. Almost all who convert quit the diet because it lacks nutrients or they're tired of being hungry all the time.
They quit because they're stuck on the shitter all day
BS! 25 years deep and in amazing health. Your claims are not reflected with science
duke1duke1
I take 1 to 2 healthy dumps a day. Tons of fiber you carnist can't even handle beans without farting up the place 😂
@@halasimov1362 Thats super awesome man I'm glad you enjoy your poops. Thanks for chiming in lmao
sure, we don't torture animals to death for no reason for our own reasons, not at all because we care about animals
He told me to look up the Lyon heart diet study so I did (I'm an actual researcher). It is about a Mediterranean diet and not about meat or dairy consumption at all.
(Abstract from the study follows)
The Lyon Diet Heart Study is a randomized secondary prevention trial aimed at testing whether a Mediterranean-type diet may reduce the rate of recurrence after a first myocardial infarction. An intermediate analysis showed a striking protective effect after 27 months of follow-up. This report presents results of an extended follow-up (with a mean of 46 months per patient) and deals with the relationships of dietary patterns and traditional risk factors with recurrence.
lol
What is your claim here?
Reminds me of Nassim Taleb's claim that the successes of the Mediterranean diet are concentrated *around* the Mediterranean. He believes the fasting of the Greek Orthodox Calendar plays an underemphasized influence, backing up rule-of-thumb strategy of removing from habits rather than changing them to get different results at a more stable and manageable rate. "Via negativia."
@Allsy Inguy In my opinion nutrition as a field has the worst correlative research of practically any science. I agree with her statement that he just threw up studies without actually showing validity for most of them. I agree with his statement that the bar was set incredibly low for him because the resolution only required that he prove the existence of a volume of research that agrees with, but doesn't necessarily prove his point. His choice to parse the resolution clearly shows that he doesn't want to focus on having the better value system. He just wanted to win the debate. Though I feel he won the debate, he certainly didn't show that a vegan diet is better.
@@AhimsaWitch my claim is that he misrepresented the study during the Q&A portion of the debate.
Her facts were better. She seemed to have knowledge and facts. He just seem to be talking on a merry go round.
her facts were better? how many more scientific studies did he have to reference? did you even watch his portion?
@@theserna youre clueless.if you don't understand, at least don't try to be an a$$hole.typical vegan, ignorant narcissist
Except she doesnt. Shes a moron.
@@Smood47 wow what an argument
@@frek175 Yup, almost as awesome as the evidence that supported the claims made by this idiot Nina the uneducated fool Teicholz. Oh wait... she just appealed to mechanism and her intuition rather than actual research that silly Dr. Katz used. Yup Nina definitely made some great arguments indeed! FACEPALM.
Lowering LDL is not something to brag about when it decreases the length of your life. See Framingham study.
Not accounting for medications, medical history, ect is very misleading. So I don’t think that holds up.
LDL lowers in sick people
Nina, you rock woman. Very professional, easy to understand, superb delivery, no fluff just info. thanks. your extensive research really adds to help us find answers.
Uh.. her arguments are weak and not backed by science.
Bianca Gadi,
You have no idea what you're talking about.
I did the vegan diet exactly for 1 year, and my blood tests and blood pressure got worse! I'm switching to carnivore. Starch made me fat as hell.
Santi mendez why can’t you just eat a normal diet? Why so extreme?
Hi Peter; that is quite a line you are taking; breath-taking really; could we ask you to substantiate a tiny piece of that. My physiology must be very different as eating high-fat by %; low-carb caused me to lose 20% of body weight in 6 months; as have several friends who adopted the same style. Their physiology must differ too from the one you advocate.
cab you cite any evidence for these sort of broad-brush statements; "what I am saying is that a fatless (really fatless, 0%) diet can not induce bodyfat gain. "
Sumo wrestlers eat high-carb diets; they get fat. (In contrast, Inuit were not obese, nor were Australian aborigines.) One fattens cattle by feeding them carbs; one gets fatty liver in geese by feeding them carbs; worms; fruit-flies; all have insulin activity: ingested carbs must be made into fat: (otherwise there is hyperglycaemia);
this is so personal a theory of yours; albeit expressed in a very persuasive manner; one must again challenge you; yet again; to cite some factual basis for these suave and erudite assertions.
come on Mr Rabbit; you can't hide like that; we all study biochemistry; carbs are made into fats with DNL; triglycerides are exported from the liver; broken down by lipase at the adipose tissue; imported into cells as fatty acids; re-built as triglycerides; ... come on there ........ no need to hide behind generalisations like " just biochemistry"; do quote the studies that support this theory of yours
How many vegan Hunter-gatherers exist in the know history of the world? Not a single one, being omnivore/eating whatever you got access to seems to be working fine for millions of years. Veganism is only possible due to globalisation and only possible for the wealthy, if you think the poorer countries get to choose what they eat, you're out of your mind. It's hilarious how people pass veganism as a lifechoice, it's more of a luxury some choose. Other major flaw with veganism: some people just can't handle such a diet, that diet will kill a lot of people (very slowly)
Well, that is true for modem medicine as well. Would you suggest dropping it for the same arguments?
As for your second point about this diet might not be suitable for all, can you be more specific? Even if it's true for some people, the more important thing is the effect over the main bulk of the population.
Actually quite a few. One of the problems folks ran into when global health initiatives became a "fad" is that they'd go into tribes with little to no contact with modern civilizations, and they'd purify their water.... and then they'd all get B12 deficiencies because the only source of B12 in their diet was from water contaminated with animal feces.
But that's a dumb argument: are we going to start saying "oh maybe your smartphone is why you're obese, we've only had smartphones for a decade or so".
Lies
Great debate. Dr.Katz talked a lot about the resolution -Vegetarian/Vegan diet is better than diets that include meat/eggs etc. And he argues he thinks balance is the best?? Basically he was proving himself wrong. And financial conflict of interest 😂 was the best part.
One wonders where he would have stood as scientist, if it was not for this conflict of interest? The slip to admit that saturated fat was not really bad, might be endangering his future funding...
Well done Nina, the only one actually interested in a detailed examination, not just sophistry and arguments from authority as Katz does. He deliberatly disembles about his financial conflict of interests.
M X,
I'm completely comfortable concluding that you're uneducated.
So, citing study after study after study, dozens and dozens of studies which all point in the same general direction is an appeal to authority? Got it.
No one with any understanding of the scientific method would make such a claim as Nina does (and which you have echoed), attempting to equate the enterprise of evidence & inquiry with an appeal to authority. They are polar opposite enterprises, and only someone blinded by emotion would fall for her ridiculous statement.
She has no arguments or evidence at all. She only wants to draw attention to herself.
Nina seriously destroyed him !!
shes f*cking long winded. how long do i have to listen before she cites actual evidence?
Your blind, we,re eating the way they told us to eat and we are fat and sick and dying by the millions, carnivore diet saved my life literally, food alergies.and astma attacks sent me to the emergency room many times, meat completely healed me, do ur research assshole!!!!!
John Lewis I’m assuming you’re referring to the reply guy above ? I’m Nina’s biggest fan ! I teach Keto and carnivore
@@Max-cd8fm yep
@@gejost Maybe, but he was worse for boring and long winded. His rapid-fire shotgunning of studies and papers didn't serve him well and she won.
Nina won hands down. Katz never addressed her well-founded assertions, he just skirted.
YEAH, he just showed us a bunch of scientific articles and research findings.... oh wait...
@@theserna so did she. And we also have 250,000 years of human life and achievements directly correlated to the consumption of other animals.
@@scottmalleus4847 For years, we also enslaved, rape and killed....dose this make it ''A MUST DO'' for our actual present date?
@@kurogami5143 nobody said it is a must do bro are you okay
No wonder eating all those vegetables has made him look like a bitter gourd
You're simply uneducated.
😂
Well said!
Great book by Nora Gedgaudas - this should make it clear.
Quote:
"Having worked intimately with the human brain for twenty years as a neurofeedback practitioner, I’ve come to an undeniable-if somewhat politically incorrect-conclusion: by far the most damaged and intractable brains and nervous systems I encounter are those of strict vegetarians, and specifically vegans, who have spent years eating a low-fat, higher-carbohydrate diet.
Whether they eat lots of whole foods or processed ones, the nutritional deficiencies from the lack of animal-source foods plus overreliance on antigenic and inflammatory grains and legumes can be very similar: the lack of fat-soluble vitamins, complete protein, essential fatty acids (EPA and DHA), and cholesterol compromises brain function and over time results in considerable mood lability and instability, from foggy thinking, irritability, agitation, insomnia, anxiety, and attention disorders to autoimmune issues and pronounced neurodegenerative symptoms.
On top of that, the damaging waves of glucose and insulin that result from their sugary, grain-and starch-filled diet unnaturally age the body and brain. By the time I see these clients, they often feel as if their health and mental clarity are eroding.
They feel something is fundamentally wrong. From an ancestral health point of view, this is completely unsurprising. Nothing is more stabilizing to the brain than quality dietary fat, and nothing is more destabilizing than sugar and starch.
From a modern statistical standpoint, the numbers are shocking: fully 75 percent of vegetarians and vegans abandon this way of life within ten years-and most do so typically because of health-related issues.
--------------------
Once the hunter-gatherer lifestyle began shifting toward growing and cultivating, human health and life span began to take quite a hit. There were much higher rates of infection from communicable diseases as humans lived in concentrated, stationary populations, and our reliance on plant foods increased our vulnerability to famine.
A grain-heavy diet low in animal-source foods compromised our nutrition.
A grain-heavy diet low in animal-source foods compromised our nutrition. In these early agriculturalists, cereal-based diets commonly led to numerous diseases associated with vitamin and mineral deficiencies, such as rickets, osteoporosis, and other bone disorders. Pellagra, scurvy, and beriberi, as well as deficiencies in vitamin A, iron, and zinc, were also rampant. Birth defects and degenerative diseases became more commonplace. And people became significantly shorter, too-implying some manner of nutrient insufficiency or adaptive conservation.
What we know today but didn’t know then was that the minerals contained in grains are poorly available to us, if at all, due to the presence of a substance known as phytic acid-a fact that makes the oft-touted, government-sanctioned phrase “healthy whole grains” not only a misnomer but, from a human biochemical point of view, an outright fallacy. In fact, the protein in grains, known as gluten, is not even digestible by any human.
The surprising truth is that human life expectancy actually declined by half-relative to our supposedly short-lived Paleolithic forebears-early on into the agricultural revolution. Stature (together with bone density) and life expectancy got shorter, while our brains got smaller-a bit of a bum deal, if you ask me.
For anthropologists, one of the most telling signs of this nutritional compromise is the complex series of changes to the jaw that can be observed in the remains of grain-eating humans. Everything the hunter-gatherer ate, whether meat or the occasional side dishes of wild, uncooked vegetables, required vigorous chewing. Investigations of prehistoric skulls typically reveal a well-formed cranium with a capacious jaw easily accommodating thirty-two teeth. By contrast, the sedentary farmer ate soft, cooked foods such as cereals and legumes, which required less chewing.
Over some generations, in conjunction with depletion of nutrients that determine skeletal integrity, this led to a reduction in the size of the jaws without a corresponding reduction in the dimensions of the teeth.
The increasingly cramped space for teeth led to high levels of malocclusion (misalignment of upper and lower teeth) and dental crowding-an abnormality seen even in remains of the world’s earliest farmers some twelve thousand years ago in Southwest Asia, and persisting since then." by Nora Gedgaudas
Alitheia Asylo Just because someone writes a book and gets it published does not mean you have to recept it as law.. .... All those points that Ms. Nora is proposing can be debated and are surely subjective...Docohexaeionic Acid and Eicosapentaeionic acid are actually found in plants initially, not fish...The fish eat the algae and get the omegas...So one can easily take a dha/epa algae supplement.. Every single point in that exerpt you just shared can easily be refuted.
@@JamesDurcan Really? Have you even read the WHOLE quote?
www.gesundheitsindustrie-bw.de/en/article/news/food-supplements-from-blue-green-algae-do-more-harm-than-good/
I NEVER FELT GOOD after consumption of chlorella, spirulina or blue green algae. However if I eat fish or shellfish I feel very clear, energetic and well nourished.
One day you will have to face the truth yourself, your body will tell you. Humans are NOT herbivores. Just because those are found in plants doesn't mean humans have the capacity to absorb it. That's not how our biology works. Otherwise, veganism would not leave people looking so malnourished, gaunt and emaciated, they would look strong and energetic. So many suffer from digestive issue and later on hypoglycaemia from all the starch and carb intake.
Or how do you explain that our brains shrunk by 10% since the introduction of agriculture? And why are bones suddenly riddled with disease but meat eaters have the healthiest teeth and bones?
Everything you said is so demonstrably wrong it’s not even worth going into...
@@strawsofftheneurodivergent4221 good post....read it all. I had to add some meat to my diet and cut out all the grains. Oysters did the trick for me. Eat a ton of fruit and some meat.
@@rawfoodphilosophy7061 Thanks!! :) Oysters are so yummy, just had some for lunch. Very few people can actually tolerate grains.
I wonder if she actually believes any of this nonsense. Also, the notion that only vegetarians/vegan researchers are biased is laughable. And btw most of the nutrients “of concern” that she showed at the end come from plants. You only need B12 supplementation (just like everyone over 50 regardless of diet) and nowadays it’s in a lot of fortified foods. Is she really that clueless?
Charlie Fader are you that clueless?
Apparently not and to anyone that has studied this topic it’s obvious that the scientific evidence does not support her biased views. To make matters worse her message is dangerous for the health of millions of impressionable people and the health of the ecosystem. People love to hear good news about their bad habits...
@@CharlieFader Her salary is based on her lies.
I cannot stay on a vegan/vegetarian. Too many cravings and I never feel satiated. I gain weight on these diets because I'll I want to do is eat. Also, grains make me fat, bloated and hungry.
These are the debates we need more of. Thank you both! Everyone agrees that anything is better than the Standard American Diet. SAD!
So who's funding Nina?
@@esch4920 meat dairy and egg industry
@@robertcohen8554 . Nina is self-funding. She has been doing this research for a couple of decades.
@@brucehutchinson9527 not self funding at all. She is a lapdog for the animal agriculture industry.
There is no evidence Nina took any money from the meat, dairy, or egg industry.
I'm feeling so much better having gone Carnivore.
But I have kept my avocados and olives in my diet. Red Meat all the way.
Been doing it 2.5 months and lost 30 lbs so far..
But I feel better
Nicky Sonny Yes, because real carnivores like their guacamole! It‘s something ancestral and primal 😅
@@johnnyfly1236 I eat it for the fat content and potassium.
@@johnnyfly1236 well all carnivores will eat plants and all herbivores will eat animals. Only retards who chat shit without researching think different lmao
Btw other dude, fuck Carnivore diet and do a seasonal Paleo diet, with some fasting in winter. (Basically nuts and fruit in spring and summer with meat, then just meat through wimter and autumn) You will feel amazing lol
Scanning for fellow carnivores in the chat...
I'm jumping into paleo, rather than carnivorism (too extreme IMO, unless you have a fish-rich diet maybe). With contradictions anyhow...
@@LuisAldamiz - Good for you, hope Paleo does you wonders. Always great to eat more whole natural foods ❤️
@@RonaldMcPaul - Have yo noticed loss of sleep? I ask because it may be a fluke or adjustment but I normally sleep a lot and the last two days I barely slept 4-5 hours each, and feeling perplex about it.
@@LuisAldamiz When I did keto, 6.5 hrs and I was fine, when eating carbs I would sleep 7- 8 hrs and still feel wasted. Sleep is for repair, maybe that has something to do with it.
I have search pubmed, but have found nothing on a diet comparison related to time length of sleep.
*carnitards
Dr. Katz eludes questions and issues
Wow she spanked him... I thought his techniques of occasionally cursing and pronouncing vegan "vay-gen" betrayed how little actual substance he had to offer ("don't look at the evidence!...look how cool I am!")
She DID spank him!
He looks like someone who enjoys being spanked.
When you don’t have an argument, you resort to being crude.
Love how Katz starts off by trying to lower the bar to subterranean levels for himself, then goes on to try and establish the argument from authority fallacy for himself.
And as soon as he said "tropical oil", he gave away who his pay masters are.
Arrogant douche who didnt address or apologize for name calling vs well mannered woman.
55:38 He said the evidence was incontrovertable -- he lost immediately. That's the opposite of science.
Christian Bone Now I know why Trump won.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incontrovertible_evidence
So are you a gravity skeptic?
So, his point is that vegan diets are healthy if you only eat the food that sucks... Got it. Nina wins.
I was diagnosed T2D just about 6 months ago. Before that, and being native Nordic I ate mainly based on Nordic Diet. After my diagnosis I figured out, if my diet was to blame, then I just switch off my previous one and try some new but not medicines. Soon I learned more about LCHF, and since then my HgA1c dropped from 7.9% to 5.5% and my weight from 88kg to 81 kg… don’t feel hungry, my energy level is good, and more importantly I don’t fight with my wife anymore…😂
Mine is a similar story. I lost 40 kg and A1c down to 4.8
Happy for you. That does not mean everybody following your lifestyle will have the same outcome.
If a vegan diet doesn't supply the nutritients needed to sustain life then why am I still alive with no health problems 3.5 years after going vegan?
@Fabian L ...because omnivores don't 'deteriorate', right?
Just wait.
@Fabian L Exactly, "Some deteriorate drastically after 10 years" doesn't prove anything..
@Fabian L Triggered? Why? We are in agreement, individual success/failure stories are meaningless..so why bring them up at all?
@Fabian L You actually base your opinion on a small group of RUclipsrs? I forgot to mention i have 2 level 4 degrees in Nutrition which makes me a qualified nutritionist and Nina a quack.
Nina you are right on the money as usual. Also as usual the veggie speakers upset my stomach with their lack of evidence ,magic tricks, lies and "just believe me cult like status" and I just can not listen anymore.
Katz cites a lot of research but never tells us what he is comparing to. I would say the SAD diet would likely be bad compared to any whole food diet.
Wow, he was completely wrong about the Lyon Diet Heart Study. And Nina caught it. He even doubled down and said she was wrong... That’s embarrassing. Embarrassing and sad
David Katz follow up to this debate: www.linkedin.com/pulse/science-power-tool-beware-its-misuse-david/
_I won a debate this past week. I was pleased to win- despite a crowd mostly hostile to my position at the start, and frequent shifts by my opponent from both reason and the stipulated resolution to derisive innuendo and outright aspersions hurled at my character- because the ostensible topic, food and health, is of enormous importance. That topic is more than ample reason in its own right to weather the slings and arrows of iniquitous confrontation, and take one for the team. How we eat has implications for countless years in countless lives, countless life in countless years, and the fate of the planet._
☮️
Red Pill Vegan, Next!
Here's to hoping you make a vid about this sh!twack of a debate
That sounds a bit douchy tbh
The only reason we know smoking is linked to lung cancer is because of epidemiology, and there is such a thing as accounting for confounding factors.
What were the risk estimates in those epidemiological studies? Compare those numbers with the estimates in the epidemiological studies that link eating animal products with heart disease or cancer.
@@kegeshook1734 - It's pretty overwhelming as to the link between consumed LDL cholesterol and LDL in blood tests and LDL levels in blood tests and heart disease. The link is literally undeniable scientifically.
@@timothys9288 You say that the link between LDL levels in blood tests and heart disease is overwhelming? Ok then, let's see what you've got. Overwhelm me with your data.
@@kegeshook1734 - Well, let's start with Web MD - www.webmd.com/heart-disease/guide/heart-disease-lower-cholesterol-risk#1
Let's not forget that saturated fat also causes higher cholesterol and animal products ALWAYS contain saturated fat.
And finally, the chart and study link that shows LDL cholesterol and incidence of and severity of atherosclerosis (heart disease)
Simple chart for someone looking for an easy answer:
www.onlinejacc.org/content/accj/70/24/2979/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1
The link to the actual study:
www.onlinejacc.org/content/70/24/2979
This is the ONLY evidence necessary to conclude the cholesterol->heart disease link and until you have a study that directly contradicts this one (which isn't paid for by the animal agriculture industry), then you have your answer and it's scientifically clear.
@@timothys9288 I have little faith in Web MD. As for the study:
ruclips.net/video/sQsPn3sfSh4/видео.html
Look at the nearest hospital. You won't see WFPB people there.
The sample size is too small, if hardly any people in any given area are eating a whole food plant based diet, hardly anyone, if at all, will ever show up to a hospital because of the diet lolol pretty simple logic. Not to mention using the amount of people at a hospital who eat any type of diet is by far the biggest dipshit way of gauging the healthiness of a particular diet.
@@BigAssNigga311 how do you explain all the people with type 2 diabetes, who have limbs cut off, who are going blind, people with heart disease receiving stents and open heart surgery, stroke patients and people suffering from cancer, which buy the way is mostly food related? That's pretty much what makes up the population of those admitted to the hospital. It doesn't matter what the population size is of those eating a WFPB diet, you won't find them in the hospital. Period
Actually, you very well might. My mother shared a hospital room with an "organic vegan" not too long ago; the vegan lady was in hospital to have surgery for colon cancer. I guess all that organic high-fiber plant-based food with plenty of plant-based oils didn't prevent cancer. I remember that lady to be outright *shocked* at that fact. (She was super nice, and I wish her nothing but the very best.)
@@4pawsabicycle675 it takes many years for cancer tumors to show up. The cancer was most likely developing over decades. It would be interesting to know how long she was vegan. Being vegan doesn't mean you won't get cancer, but your chances are much lower. Organic Vegans can still consume vegan processed junk food. There is a big difference between a WFPB vegan and a regular vegan.
@@carolschwers6537 While it is *obviously* correct that many paths may lead to cancer and that many cancers take many years to develop and manifest, it is still a fact that long-term vegans *do* indeed suffer not only from cancer, but they may develop and manifest other diseases that require hospitalization. Veganism isn't the holy path to eternal health, even though many vegans actively and vehemently deny their eating habits contributing to health issues, if/when they develop the latter. Like that WFPB lady my mom shared her hospital room with. She was completely gobsmacked by the fact that she--of all people!--could have cancer.
Of course, neither you nor I will ever know this specific long-term vegan's cancer cause, but discussing the causes of her condition wasn't the point. My point was (and is) simply to show that your fairly outrageous and unfounded claim that one "won't see WFPB people" in hospitals, and my single example is proof enough that that claim is dead wrong. I *have* seen WFPB people in hospitals, and not just that one person. A WFPB eating friend of mine died from pancreatic cancer, at a young age.
Personally, I fail to see how a deficient diet that requires the supplementation of essential nutrients and that is low in the bioavailability of other essential nutrients could ever be conceived as "healthy" in the first place, and legions of long-term vegans with plenty of chronic WFPB diet-caused illnesses ranging from cancers to IBS to diabetes show that a WFPB diet isn't per se "healthy."
If that's how you want to eat, go ahead. Far be it from me to try and convince you (or any vegan) otherwise. But please stick to verifiable evidence-based facts when you're making claims about alleged health benefits.
I have eaten vegetarian-Mediterranean for 6 years, it has dramatically worsened my chronic pathology bringing me almost to disability, thanks to keto the inflammation has halved, the disease has regressed and under control and my cholesterol and all the parameters have returned perfectly
, drastically lowering my cardiovascular risk.
I came back to live.
That is great, good for you. I hear so many good things about keto, esp for inflammation. I tried the very very near vegan diet. I felt great at first, because I was coming off of of the SAD way of life. After a couple of years, my health went down hill - tingly hands, thinning hair, bad nails, always cold feet and hands etc etc. I started slowly adding meat, eggs and the like, I feel wonderful. I know these are "studies of one" but if you have to take supplements with a way of eating ...well that should speak for itself. Just got numbers back yesterday - trigs 41 beat that vegans, all other markers better than my last check up - while vegan. Just don't eat junk, eat all real nothing in a package period! Good luck to all
Okay, this endless debate is getting ridiculous. What kind of foods do you eat exactly? Make the list of the kinds of foods you eat most commonly everyday. For example, what kind of vegetable(carrots, beans, rice(brown or white), what kind of green)? What kind of meat do you eat? Chicken? Beef? Pork?
I think the key here is “less processed”
Not all carbs are equal. Eating pasta, cooked grains, and refined carbs is not healthy. Uncooked natural carbs are far superior to refined and cooked carbs.
Yes, and no one wants the refined carbs and foods. That's the problem here both extremes said advocate to remove processed food that be carb or meat/fat. Instead of fighting a common enemy they fight each other and the processed junk food industry laugh on the side and make vegan foods and keto foods and shit food.
Incorrect. Cooking and soaking carbohydrates reduces their anti nutrient content
@@julia9557 That's if you're into cooking your food. I eat mostly raw foods in the form of fruits, veggies, and nuts. I do however, soak my nuts. Those dreaded "anti-nutrients"... I've been eating lots of raw foods for seven years now, so I must be immune to those so called anti-nutrients.
@@henryhenry2752
There's a wide range of anti-nutrients. Some of them will make it more difficult to absorb the nutrients in food, and then there's phytoestrogen in soy which acts the same way as estrogen, messes with thyroid function and may increase the risk of breast cancer. There are fewer anti-nutrients in soy if it's fermented (tempeh, miso, natto). Cooking plant food reduces the amount of anti-nutrients, but also reduces the nutrients too so it's a lose-lose scenario. In animal based food like meat, eggs, and dairy there are no anti-nutrients and it is much more bioavailable than plant food.
"Soybeans, even processed ones, have anti-thyroid properties.6 The estrogenic isoflavones (particular plant pigments) in soy-genistein and daidzein-are much touted for their health benefits. What is unpublicized is that they are anti-thyroid agents. Individuals who consume soybean products habitually (the recommendation currently in vogue) may encounter long-range thyroid disturbances. Animal studies relate the isoflavones in soy to thyroid disorders, including goiter. Other studies relate soybean consumption not only to hypothyroidism, but also to low energy levels, poor mineral absorption, and infertility. 7"
americannutritionassociation.org/newsletter/downside-soybean-consumption-0
If you remove the highly processed polyunsaturated seed oils and refined carbs from sugar and flours, and other junk food ingredients, so that both a plant based or omnivore diet are essentially old fashioned whole food diets, then either diet will be significantly better for your health than a standard American diet. These guys really have a lot more in common than it would seem.
Where I side with Nina is that humans and other animals will over eat if the proportion of protein is too low in their diet (obesity); and that you can’t get your recommended nutrients within your calorie budget from a plant based diet.
From an environmental standpoint I think both vegetable and animal farming should be subsided for sustainable or regenerative farming principles as opposed to subsidies for large scale commercial enterprises that grow maize, wheat, soy, sugar beets etc which get turned into the refined carbohydrate foods that are bad for us. This kind of farming is also detrimental to biodiversity.
Yeah, I see lots of vegetarians excluding seed oils and doing just fine. I lean more towards animal-sourced foods, but I believe most people could be pretty healthy if they simply eliminated PUFAS and refined carbs.
Well said!
Nina Teicholz: "Epidemiological studies are useless."
Also Nina Teicholz: "This 2 epidemiological studies prove that animal products are healthy. And no, i don't have RCTs"
David L. Katz: "This 100 RCTs and 20 Epidemiological studies prove that plant based diets are healthy."
Well done Nina 👍
Nina had more overall credibility in my opinion. Neither presenter seemed to mention that individual genetic variations in humans makes one diet for all basically irrelevant. There are some people who benefit more from vegan/vegetarian diet, and some individuals benefit more from an omnivore diet. Journalist vs MD. Journalist wins in my opinion.
MD also failed to show basic human decency at the beginning. When confronted by his negativity prior to this debate, he simply switched off. Extraordinary!
@@robt3407 He at least should have addressed it when he took the mic...very sad day for science.
When did eating become so complicated...here you go folks,eat fruits ,leaves ,some vegetables and some meat..STAY AWAY FROM PACKAGE FOOD STAY AWAY FROM PROCESSED FOOD...your body needs movement so excersise every day you will be healthy
Ignorant
Reason one is profit driven, real food is more expensive than flavoring industrial lubricants and calling it food, so there's a huge corporate push to get people to eat engineered "food", ie Beyond Meat. Reason two is ideological, the faith based belief that anthropogenic, catastrophic global warming will destroy life on earth and thus, it is a moral duty to reduce greenhouse gases including those generated by livestock.
The politics of food isn't about food itself, but about money and fear.
Did...did he just quote John freaking Oliver as a legitimate source of anything?! 🤦♀️😑
Did he just cite all his own publications to voir dire his credentials?
David L. Katz, MD won a debate in a room full of meat eaters. It seems like even with a buyest to wanting meat to be healthy for use. The evidence can still pull us out of our conditioning.
Katz is full of shit.
A live debate is a poor way to establish truth. "A lie can go around the Earth while the truth is putting on its pants."
I watched a debate between a scientist and an Creationist on talk.origins and the Creationist gave up because overwhelmed by you know, like evidence and was pleading not so many facts.
I really doubt she believes or understands what she’s arguing for. So much blatant disregard for basic understanding of saturated fat and vegetables. Also very poor understanding of scholarly literature.
She knows what she's talking about. And she's right.
I am guessing you haven't read her book.
@@dianedupree-dempsey2402 You're right. I'll add it to my reading list, but it'll come after several books written by trained and licensed health care professionals about the significance of landmark meta-analyses, RCTs and prospective cohort studies that Nina says both don't exist and don't matter. I invite you to consider that she's part of a big fat conspiracy that goes against the overwhelming consensus of the established science, just for publicity.
And what you obviously don't know is that science still doesn't know everything about blood lipids, which is the basis from which how it's affected by diet stems. I suggest you at least read up on the latest finds. It's all very complicated and counter intuitive. What's considered healthy and what isn't changes by the minute.
25:35 - The dude literally conceded the entire debate in his opening statements. There IS NO DEMONSTRABLE DIFFERENCE between an optimal Mediteranean and an optimal Vegetarian diet.
What Katz doesn't understand or won't acknowledge is...
there is no evidence that lowering cholesterol reduces heart disease or the risk of atherosclerosis. That's because the diet-heart hypothesis is not only unproven, but actually a myth, a medical myth like salt causing high blood pressure.
General comment: Katz is a clown and buffoon. His glibness and juvenile attempts at humor belies a form of pyschopathy that is everything to do with controlling and manipulating people and nothing to do with scientific rigor or understanding of data.
If anyone doubts these observations, go to the end of the video, Katz's final comments. He uses exactly the same tactics Donald Trump does. Says he's not going to talk about something, then mentions specifically what he's not going to talk about. This is what psychopaths do. And they get a laugh out of it. Glib manipulation of people. Deception, dishonesty, doing the opposite of what you've just said.
Martin Irving - So how come that dr. Esselstyn saved his colleague's (surgeon Joe Crowe) life?: www.andrewroquiz.com/power-story-patient-encounter/
Hmm yeah, a psychopath who dares to advocate for environmental protection stating it's not the topic of the debate. Wow, what a psychopath. I wish we had more "psychopaths" of his sort. Also, you had to wait until the end of the 1.5 hour long video in order to "prove" this observation. Can I LOL now?
HAhahahah you are beyond stupid. Go actually practice clinical cardiology and then maybe you will actually learn something idiot.
Ignorant you.