People Can't Queerbait, Stop This Nonsense.
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- Опубликовано: 4 ноя 2023
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Hi friends, today I wanted to talk about queerbaiting because I've been seeing this trend recently because of the Red, White and Royal Blue movie and Heartstopper in the past with Kit Connor. This conversation will never be black and white, and we should all agree that more queer people should be casted in general. On the producer side, more queer stories should be written WELL, not just a typecast. And we shouldn't assume or ask for someone's sexuality to be public ever.
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People can most DEFINITELY queerbait! It's in the literal definition!!!!
I honestly feel like the term "queerbaiting" should be retired at this point, like it's run it's course and all but it's time to move on.
I never understood it. Can't anyone call anything queerbaiting?
@@Agent_A_Grahamdid you even watch the video?
like a lot of words, (eg gaslighting, woke, etc) it genuinely has a place in argument - its meaning has just been twisted beyond recognition in the public lexicon. Queerbaiting is a real and problematic "rainbow capitalism" phenomenon, but it's been contorted outside of its meaning of criticising marketing to a personal critique, which makes no sense. It shouldn't be retired, but it's meaning should be reverted
@@tanyamilley4369 Ugh, I'm making a point in the form of a question. Lay off.
@@h444teligament yeah that's a better way of saying it 😭
A str8 actor can be the most talented person and give the role their whole heart and attention and a gay actor can be a mediocre one that won't do the part justice no matter how much they relate to it. I think people forget that. The opposite can be true as well of course and that's my point. Sexuality doesn't matter, talent and dedication do.
TRULY!
For example, there's two older people in the industry who play characters who aren't their sexuality aka: Neil Patrick Harris & Stanley Tucci
Neil plays a lot of Straight Characters while being Gay himself & Stanley plays a LOT of Gay Characters while being Straight himself
It's very equal and they both are EXCELLENT at their roles & performances and I think that's what matters.
Not mocking of eachother & just lovingly playing as their iconic characters.
EXACTLY!
My exact thoughts. We have to stop hiring and judging by what we are and do so for who deserves the roles and who has the talent. If there are no gay/trans people who are auditioning with talent then they should get the role based on the simple fact they are gay/trans. They need to have the talent.
well... not quite. even just 10 years ago queer people couldn't get many roles bc they were still going to straight people. queer people would get blacklisted for being openly queer. that's not fair, it effects people careers/livelihood, & it's upholding cis het privilege & the status quo.
ppl like kit shouldn't be outed but your comment is an oversimplification
Didnt ask. I lUV ANIMAL ABVSE. My content is more entertaining and has more substance than this utubers entire career. Eye posted proof...
I've seen a tumblr post that said "Just because the show didn't present your particular experience, doesn't mean it was made for straight people". And i think it's important to remember. That same show you didn't relate to, might have been really important for another person
THIS OMG
I feel like this is not realized enough when people talk about shows, movies, books and lean on the representation; that their experience is not the only experience of those that identify or have to deal with similar things. You can absolutely not relate to something and that thing depicted can still be 'accurate' because experience is subjective.
We as people can be so selfish and single minded at times, even when we're trying to be inclusive. Why do you think people fight each other in their own communities.
That's so true and it bothers me so much.
For example , so many people say that love Simon is a gay movie for straight people but despite me not relating to it at all, being bi, a girl, poc and not american, it was a movie and book that brought me queer joy and representation when I was still figuring myself out
Seeing queerness in a mainstream movie was just wow!! for me and it's important to remember that all types of representation matters because we all have different experiences and journeys
I also get pissed when people hate on Heartstopper saying things like that, or that it's way too pure or unrealistic
Just because something doesn't represent your experience doesn't make it unrealistic. It's good representation for me.
As a shy, introverted, bookworm and kind of nerd, I never saw my queerness and my personal relationship with my identity reflected in such an accurate way as I saw it in Heartstopper.
the uproar against the RWRB actors is extremely ironic since the point of the movie is that you don't owe ANYONE an answer to your sexuality, including very prominent public figures. Like did we watch the same movie???
They literally could not have been more explicit about it and people still don't get it somehow it's wild to see
same problem with heartstopper, it was said SOOO many times that Nick didn’t owe his coming out to anyone
@@allegratheswiftie seriously...how those "fans" treated Kit makes my blood boil.
@@allegratheswiftiewith even both things talking about coming out on your own terms
I didn't even notice people had a problem with RWRB. That's crazy how the whole movie went over their heads.
'I'm not the lorax of the gays' 😂😂 you crack me up
Accusing people of "queerbaiting" is GENUINELY chronically online. The funny thing is that the people who accuse people of queerbaiting are the same people who call people chronically online for being a therian or using neo/xenopronouns or some shit like that.
@@TasnimAhana-zz9pi someone who feels their soul is more close to an animal than human, or someone who believes they were an animal in their last life.
@@TasnimAhana-zz9pi yep. :)) nothing wrong with it, it is just people wanting to be more in touch with their feelings of this life or their last. i would recommend looking it up!
Yeah, I mean it's fine but not to the extent of acting like an animal and wanting to become an animal. I think we all did that stuff as kids when you watch paw patrol and be like yayyy im a dog and run on all fours like for a day and then act normal again. It's what I see kids doing online these days and it shouldn't be laugehd at. It's rather funny how grown up people try to act serious and child games and twist their mind making them believe that's their actual identity. People like misinterpret terms and it's fine but we should correct them instead of acting like all serious.
What you described about feeling like the soul is closer to some type of animal can be right, but same, the term therian is starting to be used on anyone who puts a fluffy costume on and gets on all four so i find this deeply wrong @27ShoesInALockerRoom
@@LinBeReal eh, i can see how it can be seen as wrong, but also, it hurts no one, and as long as everyone is safe, i could care less. let people be happy
The discussion around “x thing is made for/by straight people” can sometimes lead to very suspicious opinions. Like, the author of Red, White and Royal Blue is a non-binary person, but I've seen people say something like "the story is not good enough because it was written by a straight woman" and the same argument is used for Heartstopper,even though the author is aroace.
Like, I get it, just because you're a bisexual man doesn't mean you know everything about lesbians. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't write about lesbians or any character who doesn't share the same sexuality and gender as you. The only thing the writer has to do when writing a character with life experiences different from their own is to study about it!
The more I see it, the more I feel that people calling something queer "for straight people" just means they personally didn't like it and can't differentiate their own peronal opinion from the actual quality of the queer representation. Especially when people so often say it about media by queer people too 😩
red white and royal blue is great because the ecological niche of hallmark-esque romcom that's kind of goofy and fun is VERY hard to find with queer protagonists without them being queer being a huge serious thing
@@skeletized It's good for Q people but bad for G people in ways that are typical of works authored by those who are non-G, non-men or both. In almost all the most popular MM-themed works of the last few years, the gays get pushed into one of two molds - either the author's personal opinion of us or what the author thinks we should be. I find the latter more dangerous.
There are brilliant works about gays written by non-gays, but lately MM fiction feels like revenge p***.
@@seto749 of course we should criticize when stereotypes are used as a lazy writing option to get around fleshing out characters... especially when they're dangerous stereotypes absolutely!
But, to be frank I hear this claimed even when there's a multitude of queer representation including your more average Gay and Lesbian couples and people STILL say it's engaging with stereotyping if so much as a single femme gay man in present in ANY narrative. I'm not sure though that anyone is truly trying to fix the root of this issue instead of spending every waking minute assigning blame to individuals instead of the systems of bigotry taught to us all from birth and constantly rewarded by every facet of our current society.
I’m queer but I only come out to people who “need to know” when kit conner was forced to come out it was so embarrassing tbh for me as an olderish queer person. Teens can be unhinged.
All the new talk about queerbaiting is completely ridiculous. Unless you literally lived through Superwholock, you are not entitled to the soapbox. AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP SAYING REAL PEOPLE CAN QUEERBAIT!!!!!
Nawr, you're gonna make me feel old by living through the SuperWhoLock internet phase.
The superwholock reference is bringing me BACK (ugh I’m old now)
'Queerbaiting' accusations for Supernatural and Sherlock were done by a bunch of mostly straight women with an obsession over their ship it wasnt valid then either. It was fujoshi baiting if anything
@notville_you are wrong, but get a cookie anyways 🍪.
@@MidnightEkakifujoshi baiting is my new favorite phrase
Not a very commonly spoken of example of "queerbating" accusations but i feel like david tennant and michael sheen are worth a mention. Both are married with children and both are straight as far as we know. But both of them are pretty well known for having queer roles in media most recently being good omens. And well as the cycle goes, some people were pissed. Ive said this before and il say this again: THEYRE 👏 ACTORS👏 WHO👏ARE👏ACTING👏. So long as they portray a queer character well then who the fuck cares
as much as i hate to say it, i’ve also noticed that a lot of these “that’s queerbaiting!!!” accusations tend to come from younger people (and before i get “old man yells at cloud“ accusations i am also gen z)
but like. we’re seeing these accusations with shows like Heartstopper and RW&RB. and in Heartstopper’s case a lot of that cast is out queer actors which just makes it worse. but i don’t see those same accusations being leveled at shows like Good Omens or Our Flag Means Death, two very obviously queer shows that star straight male actors. and i do honestly think that a big factor in Heartstopper/RWRB getting accused of queerbaiting and Good Omens/OFMD not getting those same accusations is the age difference of the fandoms.
Good Omens & OFMD have younger fans (i’m on of them) but they also have a HUGE number of 30-smth to middle aged adult fans, most of whom are queer and have existed in queer spaces for decades. and they don’t care that David Tennant is a straight man because if he plays the role so well why should that matter? he isn’t queer baiting by playing the role, he’s just David Tennant, a straight man, playing a queer role.
there’s this tendency among young queer people to want to “be queer the right way” and i think that leads to a lot of really harmful actions, such as what we saw with Kit Connor. whereas the older you get and the longer you exist in queer spaces you realize that there is no right way to be queer, some of the most formative pieces of queer media were written by or acted by straight cis people, and that the queer experience is vast and varied.
and age doesn’t excuse people from being harmful and accusing real people of queerbaiting. i don’t care how old you are, it’s not ok. but i do think it explains a little bit of why it keeps happening so much.
As a queer teenager who LOVES Good Omens and OFMD, this is literally the exact reason that drove me into these fandoms rather than the queer media like Heartstopper. The older the MCs the more mature the fans tend to be. I have a group of friends who are either also queer or vocal allies and we cringe so hard seeing this type of discourse happen. But I also have a different theory on it that might be a bit controversial....
My friends and I grew up in an area where we did not think we would be accepted in our communities or families because of being queer. Online there isn't really much fear towards that kind of thing anymore. (Obviously bigotry still exists but we're getting better) And even if someone did attack you over your identity online many people in the same community would come to your defense. Queer youths these days don't have the kind of fear that we had. This is good in some ways but worse in others. In 2012 we would NEVER push someone out of the closet. Genuinely I just don't think the Kit Conner situation would have ever happened in the early 2000's or even the early 2010's we were all wayyyyyyy to scared of being queer to ever even THINK of forcing someone, a real person, to openly talk about that as a public figure.
Keep in mind that this is NOT me saying that the early 2000's were necessarily "better" for queer youth. I just think that this kind of situation in particular would have been handled very differently back then because I don't think it even would have happened.
two very insightful comments i'd say.
a thing one might contemplate is if my age range (older millenials and up) is just too complacent to get riled up. this might actually be the case to some degree but the question is why.. partly it could be because many of us already _have_ achieved most of the acceptance they wanted and also have become stable and successful enough in life _(•coughs•_ certainly not me _•coughs•)_ that they can just lay back and not get involved for better or for worse.
another thing that might be is that with age (sometimes) comes wisdom so we rather put our efforts into the actual threats - though that may also be bc we _do_ have the _means_ to change things.. we can vote, we have disposable income (again, not me ×.×) and might be involved in politics or NGOs and what not; meanwhile for a kid of 13, 14 complaining about something going on in the media they consume is one of the only things they can really exert any form of political power with.
another 5 cents i have on specifically the "being the right kind of queer" idea is that while older people love to complain about how bad the youth is, i have seen a lot of unhealthy change in society over the years that is very much reflected in _all_ age groups.
a big thing is the reinforcement of strong identity ideas with a big focus on what makes you be _not_ a member of a certain group. older people love to ride that wave but they can do it from a fairly secure position bc they already _have_ carved out their collective identity and just retroactively define who's in and who is not. young people are more vulnerable here as they usually haven't found their place yet _and_ their brains are typically wired to desire being part of an in-group.
i personally think this is something we actively need to steer away from bc it has unhealthy ramifications across the board but that's its own can of worms.
@@Fluff_Noodlesnot sure if things have really changed _that_ much. acceptence and hostility seem to exist in sometimes very tiny bubbles and while maybe things have become more open in your community in the time you mention, the situation in other pockets is probably very much out or synch with yours.
not saying you're wrong btw. it's more of a thought that i may be different from place to place.
People who accuse others of queerbaiting are often playing into the harmful stereotypes while also conveniently ignoring just how dangerous it is to be out in many places and industries.
Because the community is filled with fucking hypocrites
Yeah you're right. It's not a coincidence that alot of the people pressuring him to come out were young white queer people in either very tolerant or accepting areas. It was just pure ignorance and entitlement
I agree! It's so annoying because I've even seen people accusing kpop idols of "queerbaiting" too! Just because the kpop idols get really clingy and sweet with each other! Like they are also real people! I can't believe how some people think. And they just assume all the idols are straight too because Korea is stereotypically homophobic. I feel like there is 100% some closeted kpop idols but they can't really come out. And everyone is just assuming their sexuality based off how the country is or how they act around their members. I just think its not anyone's place to be assuming someone else's sexuality period
'Gay' interactions in kpop is a thing that is encouraged for fanservice though. I wont call it queerbaiting because its done to appeal to mostly straight (and often homophobic) women but its definetly a thing
@@MidnightEkaki@MidnightEkaki I agree that a lot of it is fanservice. Although a lot of the kpop fans I know that like or are okay with the skin ship and fanservice are queer. Including me, who feels a little bit seen when a kpop idol genuinely shows support of the LGBT community or doesn't have a fragile masculinity and can be affectionate with his group members. I know there are some weirdos but most of the straight girl kpop fans I've met don't act the slightest bit of excited with the idea of an idol being gay.
I feel like I see a number of openly queer KPOP idols who are simply existing as their queer selves in plain sight. But the comp-hets pull that "YOU CAN'T ASSUME SOMEONE'S SEXUALITY" garbage in order to insist these people are not queer, while simultaneously assuming these people are straight. There is one in particular (who I won't name, but if you know then you'll know) who has PLAINLY SAID in interviews, when asked if she's quite forward in asking men out on dates, "No, I've never asked out men but I've asked out a lot of women." And you can twist that however you want, but the question was in reference to romantic dates and she answered in reference to romantic dates. It's like people aren't willing to budge on the possibility that someone might not be straight unless that person makes a public broadcast saying "I'M GAAAAAAAAAAY!" But then when someone comes out, they'll all like, "Gross. That's private. Nobody cares." WTF do y'all want from people?!
@@MidnightEkaki It is not queerbaiting because they are real people. They could just be gay you never know that's why it's dumb to even call it queerbaiting. It doesn't matter who it appeals too the people themselves can't queerbait
@@franceskirsch9906 literally exactly! That's what I'm saying they all just need to let the idols live. They have so many rules in the industry to be a kpop idol, at least let them have their sexuality without making a huge fuss saying "ThEy CaN't bE GaY! THey'Re StrAigHt!" And "ThEy aRe GaY bUt I'M acTuAllY hOmOphObic" or "ThEy'rE qUeeRbAiTinG!!" or whatever else they say. Like leave them alone it's none of your business what they do anyway, let alone their sexuality
If you’re fine with gay people playing straight roles, then you should be fine with straight people playing gay roles. It’s acting, there’s no rules, it’s your chance to be someone else
•__•
gay people have had to play straight people for centuries, straight people have got to play it for like the past 30 to 40 years, if that, i think we've earned the right to play actual gay people, lmao.
@@ultimatequeenofdeath666yes, but a gay person who is a mediocre actor vs a straight person who is a fantastic actor will play the role better, no matter how much the gay actor relates. In addition, does that mean that casting directors will have to ask actors and make actors publicly reveal their sexuality to make sure that the gay actor gets the gay part? Better to audition blind and pick the person who plays the part best.
Agree. If the role is properly written and fleshed out, the actor’s sexuality shouldn’t technically matter. There is something that most all actors can connect with in their character, it doesn’t always have to be the sexuality. It just needs to be written well and have a good actor doing it. Darren Criss was so good as Blaine there are people who still can’t believe he has a wife and kid, Eric Stonestreet from Modern Family (though he was more of a stereotypical gay, but I think that’s writing) and Matt Bomer was incredible in White Collar if they didn’t know he was gay I’m not sure they could have known just by that (and plenty of other gay people have played straight people because that was all there was). Is it nice sometimes to relate so heavily with your character you play, sure… but it doesn’t always need to be a complete mirror image of the actor.
@@dionysusfilms165then find a different lgbt actor, tf? There is no shortage of talent in this world and I can almost guarantee there will be an lgbt actor who fits the role of the lgbt character just as well as the straight person would, it’s a matter of caring about representation
@@SleepingweiYou do realise that the actors have to audition? If they don't it's their own fault.
I think it is possible for an individual to queerbait in the name of their "brand". There is a lot of nuance there but I worked with a musician once who's music was becoming popular in queer spaces. So she ended up leaning into that and sampling music like I kissed a girl, and I am what I am. Keep in mind this girl was straight. She was even covering some love songs but changing the pronouns in the songs to all be she/her. She wasn't necessarily pretending that she was queer in any way but it felt pretty disingenuous and a bit of a cash grab to me.
This I agree with, it’s definitely possible for people to take things associated with queer culture into their life and almost adopt it into an “aesthetic” which is gross imo because sexualities shouldn’t be seen as aesthetics
@@FredericChenhi freddy 🤩
Honest question: how would you feel about a boy group representing gay mlm themes and aesthetics throughout their music videos and songs (even doing a BL series) while not being part of the community, as far as we know, because coming out could be detrimental to their careers in a homophobic country?
I definitely agree that people using sexuality as an aesthetic is gross and weird, but another thing to consider is that you can’t 100% definitively know what’s going on in someone else’s head. She could’ve been questioning and this was an outlet for her to try it out, or she may even be closeted. Like I’m not sure this applies in her case, but just thought I’d throw it out there.
@@adrianrm07 are you talking about onlyoneof? because if so, personally i absolutely love them, but i understand how some people might feel about their concept. even if the members might not be apart of the community they always seem so respectful and put a lot of effort into their work, and they portray it well. theyre also very openly supportive of the community. even if its just some sort of cash grab (because their company is kinda shady...) they all seem very genuine and good guys. of course i could be wrong, because i obviously dont know them personally, but i will remain optimistic and hope its not all part of one big evil scheme
When you mentioned the ‘made for straight people’ thing it reminded me of the huge discussion around BL. Specifically Japanese BL (specifying since it’s become a broad term now). I remember being embarrassed about liking any BL shows/mangas cause people would be so persistent about it being made for women. It’s especially hurtful as a trans guy to hear since before I even knew I was a guy.
people have honestly forgotten what queerbaiting even means
It is also interesting how some people are accused of queerbaiting because "they are not gay enough" while some are accused because "they are being too gay". The first ones are accused of pretending to be gay for money while the second are accused of milking the gay content.
The shawn mendes being accused of queer baiting thing was the funniest imo. Cause part of the definition includes deceiving people meanwhile shawn for like the longest while i belive has been explicitly stating that hes straight. Hes not trying to convince anyone that he is gay.
Queerbaiting quickly lost it’s meaning over the last decade, and its so hurtful to see people in the community have such toxic takes on queerness and coming out. Your don’t have to come out to everyone for your sexuality to ‘count’. Thats bullshit. And yes coming out can be so reliving and create a support system but !! Its also important to remember that there are factors that restrict a person from coming out, and it’s practically impossible to come out to everyone. Its not queerbait to be in the closet, but still experiment with your sexuality/gender and have relationships. Esp for celebrities, harry styles got alot of shit for supposed queerbait, when he was just supporting queer people and expressing his identity. People told him to come out or admit to being straight and that is such a evil thing to tell someone especially if your queer yourself. Queerbaiting is a real thing,that involves marketing that baits queer audiences into thinking a show/movie has queer rep, for viewership from a queer audience. But people aren’t part of a show. People cant fucking queerbait. Just because someone CHOOSES not to tell you their sexuality/gender doesn’t mean they equate to straight or are queerbaiting.
Yeah honestly saying that harry styles queerbaits is so weird to me, because most who do do so based on the clothing he wears, so apparently a straight male wouldn’t be allowed to wear a dress (affirming stereotypical gender roles) or based on him waving lgbtq flags, which could just be him being an ally and helping his rather big queer audience to feel comfortable
Thank you so much for making this video. I feel like because of social media, people have lost compassion and don’t actually care for other people. People also don’t seem to understand nuance anymore either, which is so frustrating. But great work as always, you’re videos are always so well done!!
One of the things that really annoys me about the topic of “queerbaiting” is the assumption a lot of people make that just because an actor hasn’t publicly come out then they must be straight. It’s possible that some actors gravitate towards queer roles because it’s a way for them to work through their own feelings and sexual identity, but everyone just assumes they’re straight. Just because someone is in the public eye doesn’t mean they have everything figured out.
i feel so bad for kit. the community that claims to support everyone is the one that pressured him into coming out when he wasn’t ready. it’s so disappointing and i hope he knows how heartbroken we are for him.
A story can be queerbaiting. A person playing a character in that story cannot. Queerbaiting is purposefully marketing something as being queer to attract queer fans without the thing being actually queer. A person cannot do that with their own sexuality. No one owes you information about their sexuality, and them not being out is not queerbaiting.
This is definitely going to come off as not being a supportive “fan”, but when I like a certain character from a tv show or movie I never really go out of my way to find out who played them and what else they’re in. I rationalize it by saying “I only like this character because the writers gave them great dialogue, the cinematographers shot their scenes excellently, the directors had great vision, and the postproduction editors knew how to encapsulate that.” Yes the actor deserves their flowers, but it’s not just them that make a great character a great character. So I never think ”oh this actor must be great in everything they do, let me follow them and get into their personal life.” For me it’s an instance of the stars aligning as to why I like a certain character, so I don’t solely expect the actor to achieve that again in another project. (Maybe pessimistic but I am happy to be wrong)
That is why the idea of actors “queerbaiting” is bizarre to me. All they did was just play a role that they were hired to do, and now people are throwing hate at them because they decided to dig into their personal life and got disappointed when the actor didn’t meet their expectations. I doubt these people disclose everything about themselves, especially their sexuality, to coworkers and costumers in their regular jobs so why not the same for actors. They couldn’t just enjoy the show/movie for what it was and leave the actors be.
The fact I have to see a PragerU ad for detransitioning right underneath this video 😡🤢🤮🤬 Thanks for being such a wonderful person and hope you had a great Halloween 🎃❤
I KNEW I WASNT CRAZY, I’ve been seeing that ad under almost every yt video I watch and I’ve been confused cuz I haven’t been watching any videos relating to trans issues recently
@rainbowkermit4943 I'm assuming youtubes algorithm bundles up queer discussions of any kind together. I used to always get the "are you gay" quiz adverts that mostly came from Chinese companies. I also get those Epoch Times trans youth "documentary" commercials too from time to time that I cancel out of.
They spreading propaganda everywhere. They did this on Twitter, too.
@@rainbowkermit4943Yeah I had that happen a while back, I reported all of them for harassment for violating the ad ToS, it did help them stay off my account though I’m not sure if it went further than that. It’s still good to not see them, they’re infuriating.
@@rainbowkermit4943 The PragerU bigots are stupid and promote that video to anyone who watches ANYTHING related to queer people. Try going into the ad settings and blocking the ad provider so you don't get PragerU stuff anymore
I came out 2009 and we were still attacked in public for doing hand gestures. I was 18.
instead of forcing 18 year olds to out themselves for playing a gay role people should reserve the outrage for the gross exploitative gay4pay porn guys
those guys boil my blood
I watched a Jubilee odd ones out video where it was 6 lesbians and one hetero person and there was a question that the straight person asked which was something along the lines of, 'how do you guys feel about celebrities queerbaiting' and that was really irritating to me. At the time I had no idea who the 'imposter' was and the others all answered the question without anyone calling it out (the straight person won). I just feel like it's one of those terms that has become so dissociated from its actual meaning.
I love you arguing with your cat and how he just takes a chomp out of your arm
My stance with roles nowadays is "Who can do the job better".
If it's a gay character, a Gay, Straight, Bi, or other actor should be able to play that role. The reverse is true with Straight Characters.
I also feel the same way about trans Actors (Just to make it clear, I use Actors as gender-neutral not masculine). If we say "Only Trans actors can play trans characters" we are limiting everyone. A trans actor should be able to play a cis character if they are right for the role.
If say they are casting a Trans character and only 1 Trans actor auditions, but 3 cis actors do, but the trans actor isn't good (as in they can't act), Should the bad actor get the role because they are trans? IMO no they shouldn't. If in my example there were a good Trans actor then yeah they should get the job if they are a better actor than the cis actors.
This whole queer-baiting stuff is stupid, and those who forced Kit to come out really did miss the point of Heartstopper.
Completely agree with you
On "Love Simon" trauma is a part of most queer lives. However, film/tv is not reality so it's okay for a show to give us an example of a non-traumatic (other than the blackmail) story. I never had positive queer stories growing up and I think that aided in my fear of coming out. When I did come out, it wasn't fun, but it was a far better experience than I had thought and what my queer friends had told me their experience went. It's okay to represent what we want the world to be like, and while I agree the story wasn't good, it still moved me to tears seeing a film were no one committed suicide, or was abused, or was told to leave the family/house. In the same way not all straight films are traumatic, our stories don't have to all be either. I enjoyed your break down by the way Frederic!
I totally agree. It’s so frustrating that just because there’s no trauma in love, simon, that it means that it’s not for queer people. As a young queer girl I loved love, simon. Sometimes I don’t wanna watch homophobia and abuse in my queer stories
I feel like there are situations where people can “queerbait” for example that time Colleen Ballinger teased a coming out video and just came out as a megan trainor fan. But at the same time stuff like this rarely happens. But celebrities and folks do not owe anyone an explanation for their sexuality or have to be open about it. The difference between Harry Styles idk wearing flamboyant clothes vs Colleen was she deliberately made a joke outta it. She also just sucks lmao. She got folks to click on her video thinking she would come out. Meanwhile Harry is just being himself. I guess we can call what Colleen did clickbait tho 😂
adam mcIntyre was actually the one who made the "coming out as a megan trainor fan" tweet
@@heylol_. I think it was his idea but she still went with it 🤷
@@velvet._. yeah you're right
Some of my absolute favorite pieces of queer media have starred actors that were closeted at the time n i would never feel entitled to their coming out prior to "allowing" them to play those roles bc thats horrific n i also would never want to have them be replaced just to have an out actor play the role bc they did incredible n often times those actors specifically cite playing those queer roles as reasons they went on to feel comfortable enough to come out
I think celebrities can queerbait ie t.A.T.u. That being said, accusing someone of queerbaiting because they don't conform to strict heteronormative standards is ridiculous.
Also, Harry Styles is queer but unlabeled. He wrote a song about it and its called 'Medicine'.
thank you?? genuinely the whole thing with people accusing others of queerbaiting outside of media they've published or made is just frankly stupid tbh
“I’m not the Lorax of the gays,” GURL that one hit too hard 😂
the pun is cute Frederic, we love the pun (and you as well☺you're amazing, thank you so much for your videos they make my day every single time!!!)
Another fabulous video
There is a problem in at least US, they can't ask your sexuality in interviews. But if you make it ok to ask about sexuality then it will be easier for people to discriminate but it will make it easier to select specifically not to choose lgbtq.
I do hate how people only count something as representation Only if they are flirting and showing it off all over the place. For me representation is representation and not all lgbtq people constantly talk or show off their sexuality. I like natural shows cause I'm not outgoing Bi and I question myself a lot cause I'm not outgoing or outspoken about it like some are and many on TV are
im so glad ur talking about this 😭 also the description tags tho “harry styles” what 😭😭
There are also those people who’ll insist that the actors/singers etc should come out because it will be beneficial for their career, they’ll get bigger following and the queers will support them which is just…baffling to me. Because there are many great out LGBTQ singers and most people would still rather speculate on Taylor Swifts lyrics having queer messaging than support them. They’d still rather analyze footage of guys from BTS interacting than support Holland, who is the one out Kpop star that needs peoples support and engagement. Be for freaking real please
It's literally an actor's job to play someone they aren't? They need money to pay for their own sh*t too.
Hi Frederic! Firstly, thank you for this fantastic video, it's not only so informative but also just SO beautiful visually. I also wear glasses, and was wondering if you could tell me what lighting you use that doesn't have a reflection in your glasses?
It’s two of these: amzn.to/3QTQzBU that come in from the side! I also point my glasses down if that makes sense (I’ll make the arms of the glasses go even higher above my ears)
@@FredericChen you’re an angel! Thank you for replying so quickly too 🤍 I just shared this video with a bunch of my friends because you articulated everything I believe so well. In the future if you ever did a part 2 I’d love to see you expand more on the harry styles of it all, and by extension Taylor swift (if you’ve seen that side of the fandom that claims they are both queer baiting). It saddens me that we talk so much about wanting men to be free to express themselves but the second harry wears a dress for an editorial magazine shoot, he’s queer baiting. People give me a headache.
9:24 “that happens in the bed”
CHOKED ON MY WATER-
I have a lesbian book to recommend!!! It’s called 6 times we almost kissed and it is probably my favourite romance novel ever! 100% recommend
I'M SO HAPPY SOMEONE IS TALKING ABOUT THIS IT BOTHERED ME SO MUCH EVER SINCE ALICE OSEMAN AND KIT CONNOR WERE FORCED TO COME OUT
I also wanna mention that we have to remember that im pretty sure, by law, you cant ask an actor what their sexuality is. Ofc whoever you can advertise that its xyz. So unless it's public knowledge that xyz person is gay, trans etc im pretty sure cant ask in the audition room are x whatever. So how can we police that only only gay people can play gay characters etc when the employer cant even ask that qurstion
acting is pretending to be someone you are NOT under imaginary circumstances.
This makes me think that people aren't thinking about if this logic is taken to extremes. There are a lot more hetero-normative roles out there than queer ones. If you're going to make a "rule" that people can only play their personal sexual identity, that's going to put a lot of queer people out of a job.
I much rather encourage normalizing putting diverse/queer people into roles that weren't necessarily written with any gender/color/orientation in mind. Like, Hari Nef in Barbie and Nichole Maines in Supergirl.
Bro I just wanna say I love your hair like I WISH I HAD YOU HAIR AND YOUR MAKEUP AND FASHION TALENT😩😩😩
I heard someone (they where famous but not sure who they are) getting angry because Harry styles was wearing a dress on the cover of vogue. He was saying how he has been wearing dresses since before it was cool and how he is gay and it shouldn’t be some potentially straight guy who got on the cover of vouge. He was basically saying Harry isn’t out as queer so he is queer bating/ talkng the place of gay people by wearing a dress on a mgizine cover. To me it basically sounded like he was saying straight male celebrity’s can wear a dress without queer bating and it made me feel really iffy. Like why would you need to be queer to go against what is traditionally seen as masculine. Harry never claimed to be gay or straight. Harry got on the cover over the guy who was complaining because her 10 times more famous. That’s just how things work, his face will bring more people in.
Queerbait as a term is so overused now. I remember when we were using it on tumblr for superwholock because of just how badly showrunners were baiting their audiences into investing in queer-seeming plots and supposedly queer characters that turned out to be lies or not exist or not queer at all. But the term was for in-show and bts issues, not the actors themselves. They're just doing their jobs and who cares if they're straight? Unless they're homophobic and then somehow managed to get a gay role i don't care.
i dont even have to watch this video to thank you for making it
i am also watching it.
and i personally don't mind a cis person playing a trans character. i would PREFER a trans actor, but i don't mind
I do feel like sexuality can be an integral part of someone's identity. As much as a trans person might not make being trans their whole identity, someone who isn't straight might not make being not straight their whole personality.
You drew a pretty fine line between identifying with a queer sexuality and identifying with a queer gender. While I do agree with them being two different struggles and needing to be treated and managed separately, I don't agree with only gender being allowed to form a part of someone's "identity".
I, personally, identify as a lesbian and that forms a huge part of who I am because of all the religious trauma I had to work through, and everything and every vice I had to overcome before being happy and feeling allowed to be myself
another common Frederic w, godbless you for putting this all into words
I disagree that cis people shouldn’t play trans characters, and it's for a multitude of reasons. One, being trans is not just an appearance, it’s an experience. An experience that cis people won't ever fully understand because they aren't trans, but an experience nonetheless. Therefore, I don't equate it the same way you would regarding race or the color of one's skin. Just like with sexuality, there's a flexibility and nuance with gender identity that's not objectively obvious to people on the outside. It's for this reason that when it comes to representation, what matters is the context, intent, and impact behind it. If it's meant to portray realism and be good representation, and it actually succeeds, then it has done its job regardless of whether or not its characters were played by people of the same identity with the same experience. Sure, in theory it's more likely that getting trans actors to play trans characters will help portray a stronger and more accurate representation, but there's also the possibility that it falls flat or becomes redundant because the way a trans actor will depict a trans character will be different than what a cis one will. Sometimes it takes different people to convey something just right for the art, or rather for something specific that may be necessary to support the representation and film as a whole. The second reason, and perhaps one of the most important, is that by only casting trans people to play trans characters, you are limiting cis actors from playing something that is inherently challenging and foreign to them, which may hinder their growth both as an actor and a person. One of the main reasons why actors act is to be something they are not to express themselves beyond their comfort zone or personal bias. It's to do things they would never do and live as something they will never be in reality. There's many reasons why this is the case, but one of the most significant reasons is that it can help them better understand what they are not by stepping in their character's shoes for a temporary period of time. In the case of cis actors, some do it simply to better understand trans people because it's the closest they'll ever get in an art form they are mentally, emotionally, and even spiritually the most connected to. Everyone goes through different experiences and learns things differently, and this may be the only way they really know how. I think it's wrong to deny them this simply because they’re cis people. To me, it's somewhat similar to telling a trans person they can't play a cis character because they’re trans. Trans people don't always want to play trans characters, and really what's the point of transitioning if they can never play the very thing they identify with, which is why they are even trans in the first place. Ultimately, I'm not saying that cis people should outshine trans people from playing trans characters. I think there should be a balance of both because both deserve job opportunities and to do the things they want to do.
I'm a pan and non-binary person and I agree with you! And I would be fine if a talented cis straight actress (for example, Rebecca Hall or Freema Agyeman) portrayed a character pan/ enby character. If the character was a bad*ss one, I can say that I would be kinda proud.
PS:
- I consider nb as a trans identity. At least, It what makes sense to me.
- I'm an afab one. That's why I mentioned actresses.
Exactly! I don’t understand this need to extra discriminate when it comes to certain things in art. It just feels counterproductive to making a more equal world and it ultimately does the very thing people fight against, which is just inequality in general. For example, In the case of straight actors and gay characters, look at the movie "Brokeback Mountain." Imagine just how different and possibly even mediocre that movie would been if it was played by anyone else than Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal. Those two actors, who were straight, brought life to those characters and even brought attention to the gay experience in very a beautiful and nuanced way. Nothing felt forced nor misrepresented and the actors cared so much about the film, its characters, and message that they encouraged others to not reduce the film to just "the gay cowboy movie" because they knew it was so much more and how important it was for everyone to understand and see, especially for the majority of straight people who weren't educated. It was significant for all kinds of reasons and I don't think it could have been done as effectively had they not been a part of it. The impact most certainly wouldn’t have been the same. Sure, you could argue that this was an exception because films like this don’t get made often, but the point is that it can be done. We didn’t need Heath and Jake to be gay in order for us, queer or not, to engage with the movie and recognize its sincerity. We could feel the realism, the character's emotions, and the message it was trying to convey regardless of their actual sexual orientations. (Also, I know what you meant.Trans or Enby, it doesn’t matter. They're both LGBTQ, which is what this is ultimately about.) 😉👍 @@RaphaPortoRP
Always nice to hear your elaborated thoughts on things :)
It’s nice seeing these kind of videos. When I was in college, I joined the GSA as an ally (straight/cis). There was a day where we were allowed to ask questions and I asked something that was offensive. Looking back I could’ve worded it better or asked in private, but they were so harsh in their reaction. I wasn’t asking out of malice, it was to learn. It came from a place of love and understanding. After that I was afraid to ever ask any LGBT questions unless they explicitly said you can ask them ANYTHING.
I also know that LGBTQ+ aren’t obligated to answer all your questions but if we’re in a GSA meeting where questions are supposed to be welcomed, why demonize someone if they ask an offensive question?
Btw the question was “is there ever a time when you can ask someone their sexuality?” And they just replied with “NEVER” and left it at that. I didn’t ask that because I felt like I had the right to know someone’s sexuality. It came from observing someone and thinking “they are showing gay characteristics and/or hang out with a lot of known gay people. Are they also gay?” I was 19/20 coming from very minimal representation of LGBTQ+ people in my hometown.
It would be unethical for people casting rolls to specify the sexuality of the actors auditioning, that said, a larger representation of all marginalized and underserved communities in media would and should be where we’re headed so that the opportunity for those characters to be portrayed more honestly by people who understand them better exists.
No the first to die at the end literally made me cry and I was like no no no stop I’m sad now so read it guysss it’s such a good book
I've seen plenty of straight actors play gay roles very well. Those in Shameless would be one of my favourites. I've also seen gay actors play straight roles very well. I'm lgbt myself and I believe in true talent not sexualities
For me love is love no matter who you are or what you look like, I think we as humans need to stop hating, no one has to come out if they aren't ready or don't want to, it's their life no one elses. As for actors it's not fair to force them to do anything let alone come out, and yes it would be awsome to have actors feel comfortable enough to be themselves on and off the screen. I have a huge hate for bigots and racists and always will. Love your talks and makeup 💜
I know this was only partly talked about in your video, but thank you SO much for talking about people grouping together gay trans and poc struggles and acting like we all go through the same stuff. Im a bisexual transguy whos sexuality has been a bit fluid, when i was a kid and preteen i was mostly a lesbian since i barely liked men at the time, so i know the pain of rejection and being treated like a corrupt sinner by christians, but goodness i cant stress ENOUGH how i hate when gay/lesbian people try to say they struggle as MUCH as us!!! Being trans has been, is, and will continue to be a traumatic experience for me, but liking the same gender? I couldve spared so much trouble throughout my childhood if i liked men like every other girl, but it does not compare to the mental torture that being trans is, like dysphoria and having your identity dismissed by family and friends is horrible and its not something you can sweep under the rug, its in your face because this is your IDENTITY. When i told my aunt i was a lesbian when i was 11, she was in denial, and i had friends who could tell and tried to convert me straight so i wouldnt "go to hell", but i lost almost EVERYONE in my life after coming out as trans, i had to cut off my friends, i had to cut off 70% of my FAMILY, because this was so much more then "i like girls", it was so so much more then that, it was "im actually a boy" and they thought i was delusional, THEN they wanted to accept me as a lesbian, they refused to use my pronouns and name but still claimed they "respected" it because they didnt scream slurs in my face, it was horrible. I came out when i was 12 and im 16 almost 17, it still stings and it will never stop stinging. My life would have been so much easier if i was just a lesbian girl, i wouldnt need surgery and hormones just to feel comfortable in my own body, it is so much more then "i like" and i have to do it to survive because very rarely do closeted or public pressured de-transitioned trans people make it past the age of 30. Im sorry for this angry rant lol, i just dont hear enough people talk about this and i want my voice and my fellow trans peoples voices heard to 🙏 just know youre an amazing person for listening to people in minorites other then your own and being respectful about how people need to acknowledge their privilege and/or acknowledge when something someone else is going through is completely different from what theyre going through, and they shouldnt project their experiences or talk over them. 🩷🩷 its hard finding youtubers who dont step on other peoples toes when it comes to things like this they dont know enough about but pretend they do so they can have a say in this stuff.
WAIT! THIS IS HOW I FIND OUT THEY MADE RED WHITE AND ROYAL BLUE INTO A MOVIE??
WHEN AND WHERE?
I would argue that instead of attacking actors who are not openly queer for playing queer characters, people should focus on fighting for openly queer actors instead.
This is my first long video of yours that I've watched, and I really appreciate how well you explain yourseld in long form content. Sorry people have demanded your pronouns. I definitely agree with you that having a diversity of queer people as producers, directors and writers is so much more important than the actors
We appreciate how well you've articulated your insights on this matter. Keep up the good work.
"Twitter is the one thing I will deadname" - Frederic, being iconic.
David Tennant, Michael Sheen, Stanley Tucci - these three men come to mind when this whole queerbaiting debate happens in acting and I honestly know just based of these three, people have lost the plot and should log off. You can not as a human being queerbait as it is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment (both, I can assure you not living breathing humans since we are not in the American Gods universe) in which creators HINT at but do not depict LGBTQ+ rep and love. Again the word CREATOR is used meaning script writer, author etc. are the ones we should blame for these things not the actors who took a job to put food on the table, pay their bills and keep things going. Since actors, with exceptions, do not write their lines and do not do the casting for the roles - sure they audition, but the choice is not theirs to make and when they do land the part clearly there was something to why they did.
For me honestly it boils down to this - some fans or people in general having this assumption/belief they are owned the knowledge of someones sexuality and lost the plot on why they are not.
I deeply sympathize with you, Frederic. I too have a super emotional cat. The only thing that calms him down when he's really spun up is classical music. It's kinda wild to see how well it works. Music really does soothe the neurotic beast. (That's how the saying goes isn't it?)
This is making me so furious, when I think I finally found a good movie, book, whatever, where the relationship is in-depth and explored and what not they HIT U WITH THE WOW LOOK AT THIS THEY HELD HANDS IN THE LAST EPISODE LAST SCENE LAST MINUTE
FREDERIC FOR THE SAPPHICS !!!
I never actually knew what the term 'queerbaiting' was until I watched this video. I always assumed that queerbaiting was when a person (mostly a celebrity) comes out as queer or suggests it for views, likes, or followers, even though they are straight in real life. As much as I understand that a person lying about this topic for popularity can indeed happen, I can also imagine how hurtful it can be. A person can realize they're queer at any point in their life. They can go through life thinking they're straight, being in relationships and experiencing love, only to later realize that they're actually queer or bi. Saying a person is 'queerbaiting' is almost like saying, 'you can't be queer because you're known for being in a straight relationship.' This can also perpetuate more stereotypes and lead people to say, 'you're queerbaiting because you don't act gay,' which is clearly a harmful assumption.
it’s actually so exhausting this is a conversation that KEEPS NEEDING to happen like when will people understand this and leave innocent people alone
The two women in Chinatown book is called
Last Night at the Telegraph Club
It is a great book!
Would love to see review or reaction videos from you on Our Flag Means Death. Everything you said you are looking for in this video is beautifully portrayed in this amazing show 😊❤
THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS VIDEO VERY IMPORTANT
I’m really glad to talked about this
I will say something to the disclaimer you mentioned.This should be applied to trans people as well. There should be no limitations for trans people to play cis roles or cis people playing trans roles. I'm aware there is a gray area for example a cis man playing a transwoman and that can highly depend on the story and what are they trying to portray and many other factors. But Transwomen should be able to play ciswomen roles and ciswomen should be able to play transwomen roles and viceversa with men and transmen. For the race part, if the race of a character is not integral or important to the story in any way and swapping it will not heavily change the story, race swapping is fine, but obviously no blackface or yellowface etc. (because it will do the story injustice if the character's race mattered to the story but was swapped. Having an asian or black superman doesnt fking matter cause superman is an alien, but having white millionares as main characters for something like "crazy rich asians" will not make sense cause what would be the point of calling the movie "crazy rich asians" with a plot revolving around a character/s being asian?). Anyone with common sense will understand that simply swapping a black character to a white one or vice versa or other variations does NOT include or mean blackface, yellowface etc.
The point of all these casting decisions is to find someone who can portray the essence of a character through acting the best. Obviously we should get more opportunities for actually queer people as actors, directors, writers etc. and fund charities and support currently-out people who fall in those categories, but if an actor is actually queer but sucks at acting and is competing with a straight actor who acted the character well, the queer actor will not be chosen cause they will not do the character justice or portray the character well despite being queer themselves. Also, why tf are people accusing rw&rb and Heartstopper for queerbaiting, hyperfocusing on the main duo, when queer people worked on the fking sets (nonbinary author and gay man director and then aroace writer with gay actors and trans actors respectively).
Not sure regarding trans roles played by cis people, since they often don't physically match? Like a trans woman will be taller and more masculine looking since she was AMAB and same with trans men, who wilk be smaller in statue and stuff. Having actual trans people in roles gives it more realism.
He’s got that Turbulence 😳
THE TITLE ALONE!!!!! YES!!!!! PERIOD!!!!
I'm sick of that "queer trauma is a necessity" thing 😭 i just want to see a happy romance
Loved the vid ❤
Watch Our Flag Means Death.. it is exactly what you are looking for ❤😊
It's acting. If you can't separate fiction from reality you have a big problem.
I feel like people forget that gay actors play straight characters all the time, if everyone role has to be played by someone who perfectly matches the character there aren't enough queer characters for all of the queer actors to play.
I disagree, I think there are a lot more gay actors than you realize. Also, there are still a lot more straight roles than LGBTQ roles out there.
Thank you 💜💜💜
this was refreshingly nuanced, way more than i was expecting.
i would personally say that your argument still to some degree holds true for trans people bc there may be well-passing actors who just don't want to be outed as actually being trans, as well as pre-transition people who can still bring their experience of dysphoria to the role - even if i assume that mental switcheroo can be highly emotionally taxing, but that is true for certain other roles as well.
i do grant though trans actors getting roles is a more pressing social issue than making sure a gay/lesbian role is cast with the respectively oriented kind of actor (especially, as you mention, when the role is that of a kid - it's hard enough to get queer representation for minors in media anyway)
i do really like that you remind people that in general there are way more serious issues threatening the community.
what i only just realised when writing a different comment though is that to a kid who has yet no other political power what so ever (no or hardly any income, no right to vote, maybe not even realistically able to leave the house much if you're below 16) complaining about something you perceive as harmful in the media _may_ be your only way to engage with social issues at all. i mean i certainly didn't feel like i had much of a voice in these matter when i was a kid and i probably had more freedoms than many American kids these days have.
Thanks for the video ❤
I also find it interesting that a person playing a hetero character does not have to say their sexuality. It is again forcing LGBTQ+ people into coming out.
For example the actor who plays in Bros has played a hetero man for years. We did not ask him to come out as hetero and now finding out he is gay is not a problem.
The problem of straight actors playing queer chars was a problem for over 10 years ago, the industry wasn’t welcoming queer actors or listening to queer people. That is why we were so angry for straight people to get all the parts instead of letting in lgbtq-actors. I think young generations Forget/don’t know the reason why that was a thing, and because of people started to critizise, the industry finally started to let queer actors in. Se with poc people. We finally have started to get real representation (still not enough tho, it could always be better ofc) and we have started to let non-queer people to act these important parts because the trust is getting built slowly. But it was a BIG problem back in the day.
i love kit conner and heartstopper and it broke my heart that some of the fandom made him come out whether he was ready or not. It’s so rude and those people are awful and should keep their mouths shut.
It angers me so much that people feel obligated to know other people’s sexuality, especially celebrities. It’s literally none of our business 😭 if they want it to be know, slay! But if not… also slay! It’s not out business. Sex, sexual orientation and gender reassignment are 3 of the 9 protected characteristics (especially here in the uk). So fr! We do not have to know, they do not have to tell us.
3:40 frederic's definitely getting ready to go out after this /s
love youuu Frederic 🧡
Im so glad this is being talked about because it actually bothers me so much that people accuse REAL PEOPLE of queerbating.
The whole point of acting is you’re literally playing a character. It’s entirely disrespectful if you’re playing a character where their identity (gender and race) are integral to their story, but you’re putting people in boxes. If a queer person can only play queer characters than only straight people can play straight characters, which will make the acting market for queer actors very small, so likeee
OKG YAY FIRST COMMENT HI FREDERIC Thx for the new video! I’m too lazy to fix the caps lock from before lol
Frederic*
@@FredericChenlmao
@@FredericChen sorry! I’ll fix the comment lol
Agree with everything Frederic said.
I think that a book that really talks about this point a lot is Imogen, Obviously (amazing queer wlw book, plz read I'm begging, I've already read it three times this year.) and also how bisexual people can have a hard time feeling accepted in certain spaces because of the toxic culture of queerbaiting
Frankly, I like when straight people play gay characters, because it's just cool when a straight person is supportive of stuff like that
also there are straight people in the community too like, you can be trans and straight, genderfluid and straight, asexual and still straight