Thanks Will, I am from a country called Zambia and I have been completely off-grid for a year now thanks to your videos and Tutorials. Please keep up the good work
watched the first video then as soon as it ended you posted this one. my anticipation for finding a solution was very quickly resolved lol thanks for keeping on top of things and always giving your honest opinion. I respect that a lot.
The Delta Pro can be charged from a EV charging outlet, so it should certainly be possible to incorporate the charging of an EV into the unit as well. Interesting to see that little has changed over the last 35 years. Back then I was building adaptors that where not offered commercially and today you are still building adaptors to make tech work for your needs. Keep it up.
Yup, its a safety mechanism. Actual, several safety mechanisms. There are also GFCI requirements now too. Basically to prevent someone from electrocuting themselves on the car's frame while charging. Even though those solar chargers are 'isolated', that kinda goes out the window when one starts talking about high voltages. Circuitry inside the EV is definitely high voltage and the bulk of metal in there can result in a huge electric shock to a person (or between electronics in the vehicle and the vehicle frame) if it is not properly grounded while charging or if the AC neutral is not properly centered on ground. -Matt
none of the batteries in the car or the solar's voltage has a ground reference so grounding it does nothing for safety. it is only applicable while charging from house power
@@jasonharrison25 You are missing the point pretty substantially. Read what I said more carefully. There are a lot of things that you can count on with low voltage DC that don't apply to high voltage AC. Also, we aren't talking about the vehicle's battery as much as we are talking about the in-vehicle charger and its frame. L2 chargers (not just Tesla's, but all modern L2 chargers... its code)... L2 chargers require a solid neutral and a solid ground in order for their safety mechanisms to work properly. If one or the other is not connected, the L2 unit and/or in-vehicle AC-DC charger may not be able to detect current paths that might cause excessive common mode within the AC-DC charger or which might run through the vehicle's frame. IN ADDITION, any fully isolated system trying to charge an EV can develop static charge on the EV's frame due to the high voltage AC being applied. This is why they aren't supported (not that it prevents people from doing it anyway, such as what Will just did in this video if he doesn't have a solid earth ground in that setup). This static charge can electrocute a person who provides a better path to earth ground to discharge it than the tires. A few solar panels (a direct DC connection) generally doesn't have this problem, but any sort of AC can. High voltage / high current AC can become very dangerous in an isolated system. Particularly 240VAC where the primary current path is only between the two hots and the in-vehicle charger's synthesized neutral or ground has proximity to the vehicle frame. Which it does. This means that any 120V or 240V charging of the vehicle REQUIRES a solid neutral and a solid ground, wired in a way that will not defeat charger or in-vehicle (GFCI style) safety mechanisms and which also provides a solid earth ground for the ground. Otherwise you are opening yourself up to serious electrocution risk when you touch the frame of the vehicle, and opening the vehicle electronics up to serious damage if the static charge is dissipated by other means (such as between the AC-DC charger in the vehicle and the vehicle's ground, or the vehicle's frame to earth ground). There is also electrocution risk against the frame in an isolated ground situation because there is no current on the ground path to trip the GFCI in a wrong-path discharge situation. This is an issue for a car in ways that it isn't for portable electronics simply due to the bulk of metal that can be charged up and the currents involved in a car. In short, you need an earth ground and you need a properly separated neutral and ground (the neutral connection to earth ground has to be on the supply side of the GFCI or other safety mechanisms, not on the load side). -Matt
@@Channel-gz9hm You can go to school and become an electrical engineer, and then 40 years later comment on youtube videos replying to people that don't have a proper appreciation for electricity, kid. I happen to like Will's videos. Quite a lot actually. He's usually bang-on. Not quite this time though. When multiple kW starts to get pushed in an AC system, a lot more caution is required. -Matt
@@junkerzn7312 lots of people read what you write, take it in and think, "yeah, that makes sense." - especially the proper individual grounds/neutrals on the "client"/receiving side. it sounds a lot like any other kind of engineering. the are rules to follow or you get too close to an incident occurring. thanks for your input.
Being able to charge up a EV and run my complete home is my primary interest in PV. At present I'm spending $230/week for fuel in my truck and around $550/Month in my home. With an efficient PV system it would really make a difference over time. Thanks for the heads up, I will avidly watch.
@@benc1927 No Crypto on this end. We have a pool motor and chlorinator running 8 - 10 hours/day. I'm not complaining. The payback with PV for our house and car would be perhaps half what others would experience. Stay safe.
I charged my friend tesla 3 with the 3 prog house plug and I added a Huges ground plug. To it and charged it at 120v @ 5 miles per h On 1 EcoFlow Delta Pro. So it works 💪
Good to hear, this solution usually works. You may want to see how close to ecoflow you can get that neutral/ground tie, as per code. Floating neutrals are common on generators to transfer switch emergency power, as the main panel should have the only tie. And because of that, always ground your gen.
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We are not talking about the 120V outlets or circuits. This video and the one before it are specific to 240V charging only. I am trying to find a cable or adapter that works for 240V, not 120V. I can't imagine anyone charging a tesla with 120V. That would be absolutely awful.
One thing was confused me in previous video: 120 Vac readings between each hot and ground. This led to wrong suggestion, that neutral ang ground is bonded somewhere. For example, each unit can have individual bonding. But, this new video cleared sutuation: I suggest, that 120 Vac measurings between each hot and ground were possible though filter capacitors, that must be installed between neutral and ground in each inverter unit. So, capacitance of these capacitors was enough to carry multimeter's measuring current to show 120 V, but wasn't enough to carry measuring current of Tesla's EVSE unit. It seems, that "strong" metallic bonding is needed between combined neutral and system's ground wires (as Code requires for domestic circuits). Even if system is not actually connected to ground electrodes.
@@WillProwse Agreed. I had thought that the 120 30amp rv plugs from each unit were used in the 220 combiner and its the RV plugs that were wired wrong on the pre-prod units. If that was the case, then I would have expected the RV plugs to pass neutral incorrectly to the combiner. I only have one Delta Pro that is a production model so I can't test mine. Sorry if I was wrong on that. Anyway, good luck on your testing and always enjoy the videos.
There absolutely should not be any plug or outlet sold that bonds ground and neutral together. That would be a huge violation of code and ultra dangerous for any consumer-facing device. Presumably that generator is producing split-phase output (same as your house), so it would be 120VAC on each hot, 180 degrees out of phase. Measuring between the hots gives you 240VAC. The ground absolutely must connect to earth ground somehow. If the generator is fully isolated and the ground is not connected to the house ground, then that's a huge safety problem for charging a vehicle. In a similar fashion, the neutral must also ultimately connect to the same hard ground (in the U.S. anyway). But since there is no neutral on the 6-50 you now have a slightly more complex problem. * If the L2 charger has an integrated GFCI then you can get away with tying neutral and ground together at the generator. * If the L2 charger does not have an integrated GFCI then you have to add a GFCI breaker inbetween the generator and the L2 charger, and you can tie ground and neutral together on the generator side of that breaker. * You still need a hard ground to earth in some manner or another for safety. Otherwise the vehicle's frame can develop common mode potential vs earth ground that is enough to shock or kill a person. This can occur because the vehicle is messing around with high voltage AC and the AC fields can easily cause a charge differential to accumulate on the vehicle due to interactions with everything around the vehicle. -Matt
Perfect example of community working together to fix problems. Nice job and thanks for a quick update. Also would love to see your mining setup. Was there a video I missed about this?
If you look in the ecoflow community you’ll see a video clip where I charged my Tesla with 2x delta pros through a home transfer switch. The UMC will check for voltage between hot and ground to assure that it can provide ground fault protection if needed.
@@WillProwse initially since I used an ATS it was bonded at my home’s service panel because I am using my wall connector. However I rigged up an adapter I built that takes the twist lock, bonds neutral and ground and gives you a 14-30 out. I have the adapter for the UMC for 30 amps, but you could also do it for the 6-50 OR the 14-50. I tested, it works and it’s there in a pinch if needed.
Thanks for giving more info on the Ecoflow. With your testing and documenting the performance I can see this unit as an easy gateway to solar for a lot of folks. You also have to have a lot of confidence in your skills to go hooking up one to your $120k car! Personally, I always listen when you say “don’t try this at home”.
You are soooo cool. I didn't have the slightest notion that Delta doesn't have an E Car charging setup adaptable to Tesla or any other e vehicle. That's totally nuts that they don't. Anyway thank you for pursuing that which is right for everyone.
For all those people that pointed out that EV cars stranded on the side of the road during interstate shutdowns would somehow be at a disadvantage to the gasoline cars because someone could just bring a gallon of gas: this could be a fantastic option. Ecoflow Delta Pro + EV adapter + 15 minutes = enough charge drive the cars to a charging location. Ignoring that towing the EV for a mile would also allow enough regenerative charge for the EV to finish the trip to the nearest charger (use that search bar to find some). Also ignoring that a stuck EV would only use around 1% of it's energy per hour to keep the occupants comfortable (several great videos posted on RUclips demonstrating this by now) and would outlast all the gasoline cars also stuck around them, and still probably be able to drive themselves away while all those gasoline cars were waiting for their fuel to come.
how do you tow a Tesla that allows it to do regenerative charging? will a Tesla charge from the rear wheels only when the front are stationary on the tow truck?
Thanks will. Appreciate the insight. I’m in contact with them too for making a longer cable that connects the smart batteries to the main unit. Seems like they have some things to develop that they could definitely sell.
My modification to the generator plug on the adapter to NEMA 14-50. I soldered a 20 Ga copper wire between the neutral and ground pins and made a trench between then so the wire didn't interfere with plugging it into the Delta Pro 240 volt combiner.
I did a similar thing (bonded neutral and ground) with 240 volt output from Magna Sine inverter and it works for EV charging as well. Will try this from my EF Hub. Thanks Will
Id recommend using a 4 pole plug that way no mods are necessary. This way certainly works but would bypass a gfci function. A 4 pole would not because it would still allow the gfci to see the difference in potential between ground and neutral. Its a mute point it will still trip a circuit if something grounds, but something to be aware of.
Yes, that is why I am using a different plug altogether. NEMA 14-50 is a 4 pole plug. And it requires modification. I am not using a 6-50 plug, and that is what I said in the video. The "ground" designation is quite tricky in this circuit. But yes I see your point about GFCI. But I do not use the neutral with 6-50 on my floating system, and it should work just fine. I think it is the current going only to ground. The neutral is not connected in that configuration.
Sorry I missed that about the 14-50 connector. It must have to do with tesla's programming needing to see 0v difference on neutral and ground and with the floating neutral. typically with a transformer you have to bond 1 of the secondary legs to ground. Id say on this type of system if it is not already bonded to do so may damage the solar generator if its not designed for that. Im sure with you im preaching to the choir. Love your channel bro.
Hi Will. Love your channel. Just finished reading your book "Mobile Solar Power" and left a review on Amazon (under honshirabe). The book inspired me to put together a small solar power source for my ham radio station (VE3OQ). It consists of Renogy 30A charge controller and 100W solar panel. The battery is a 50Ah ECO_WORTHY LiFePO4 battery. Small, yes, but enough to power my radio station. Thanks for your help. Been a fan for years.
Great videos, I’m sure your already on it but I would like to see how long it can charge the tesla before depletion along with how it does also when solar panels are hooked up to it and then depletion.
I had the same problem with my RV. The Southwire transfer switch. Neither the Eco flow delta or my Gro-Watt would work with an open ground. 30 Amp 120 volts. I ended up adding a neutral bond wire and switch to the input of the transfer switch. Whenever I'm going to use my Gro-watt I just flip the switch before I turn the Gro-watt on. When I'm using shore power I flip it off.
Depends. On the HPWC there is no neutral. Two hots and a ground. If you order a 6-30 adapter from Tesla it should work. There’s a chip in your 14-50 mobile connector that expects a neutral. And when neutral isn’t present it won’t work. The various adapters communicate back to the mobile power connector.
That's great you got it to work! awesome, but maybe use some butt splice crimps with heat shrink to make the connections permanent instead of marrettes taped up(that's dangerous).
So I love your videos I see you make your own is there a place I can find that adapter on line what I’m Looking for can you tell me what kind of adapter is available online or in store
Can you fit the two Ecoflow Delta Pros and the two expansion batteries inside the Tesla? How much range do they add? It's neat to think that you may be able to expand the range of an EV with an external battery onboard.
@@WillProwse Easy to forget the weight when you do the heavy lifting work out 💪🏽 I just got a tiny battery and even that is 4,5kg 🐶🤣 So yes a very bad idea.
I wonder if they are verifying a ground presence by inserting a small current off one leg into either ground or neutral and checking for voltage between ground and neutral. With both bonded properly (as they would be in a power panel) there would be no difference in voltage. With a floating power supply situation that would be one way to verify that there is a ground present.
I saw your comments on Tech Ingredients about using mirrors. Don't try this in Texas its 110 degrees in the summer, might be OK in North Dekota. I was testing some panels yesterday it was 48 degrees and full sun at noon, panels got on high side of warm after only 2 hours.
I don't quite understand? How about a wiring diagram! So black 1 to black 1 and black 2 to black 2 and common white and ground green to ground green??? You really did not explain clearly?
I have a Delta Max wich charges my Nissan Leaf with the wallcharger that Nissan supplies. But it warns for faulty ground connection. But still it works at least
NEMA 6-50 would probably work if its ground was bonded to the neutral. Just because the connector and Tesla doesn't have a neutral, doesn't mean it can't sense if they're bonded.
Purchase 2x (Southwire Company LLC Neutral-Ground Bonding Plug), plug both into those two separate receptacles on your power strip and you’ll get the same effect.
120V bonding plug? I would rather bond at one point for safety reasons, on the 240V spot. Hmmm I wonder if the neutral of the generator plug is the ground of the other outlets. Those ones do not have a neutral, but maybe they are not wired as we think they are...
@@WillProwse I’d check continuity of all ground locations and all neutral locations… if there all showing continuity to each other than technically you only need 1x of a 5-15 ground-neutral bonding plug because it’s doing the same job as if you cracked open those units and made your own jumper wire from ground to neutral.
@@cybertrk They are using the same ground, so if I plugged my charger into the other receptacles, I would not have a neutral and it would not work. Very interesting.
@@WillProwse keep in mind the neutral is not in use via the Tesla charging cable it only requires that the neutral and ground are bonded somewhere, anywhere… so you could plug into another receptacle and it’ll work fine since all grounds are one wire. So I bet you can literally jump the neutral to ground anywhere and use your 5-50 plug just fine. It’ll work.
Very cool, Will. I wonder if you might be able to using NEMA15 (2), strap neutral to ground (3rd wire) and plug into those 120vac sockets? Of course, I don't know if the Tesla or the Ecoflow had to "see" this connectivity to work. We have to do a similar thing on an 30A RV when using a small generator, such as a Honda 2000/2200 inverter generator and a PDI EMS. The EMS won't cut through with an open ground. Just a thought. Thanks.
Hey there!! Could u s at up a female receptor on those milk crate solar generators u made sometime ago to be charged at and EV charging station. This could be used in charging ur milk crate solar generator while ur chargeing ur electric 4x4 ur going buy for camping in quartsite AZ?? Ciao & carpe diem!!
The ecoflows produces an Isolated Grid the tesla charger tries to measure the resistance between protective earth and the phases - if it detect the ground cant carry a load it will shut off automatically as it has done. In Europe for example in Norway the tesla UMC allows to turn off the grounding check because there it mostly cant be done like on yours here ans so far as i have noticed most chargers in europe were to dumb to detect a misssing ground connection - including the tesla umc - but they still advertise with this feature on the Stickers. So i'm quite surprised the US model handles this more serious
Surprising That you were able to connect the neutral and ground together. Most inexpensive inverters output an inverted sine wave on the Neutral terminal so shorting them to ground destroys the inverter.
That explains why the Tesla charges, but it doesn't seem like this would work for all inverters. I've measured some that put a -60v sine wave on the neutral and +60v on the hot to get 120v. Bonding neutral and ground might damage those inverters. Can you scope your inverter hots and neutrals?
Wait... so the Hardy-Board did the trick??? Looking forward to the full EF D Pro review. I watched a previous review you did of a smaller model and one thing you mentioned was the lackluster customer support. Do you feel they have improved in that regard?
Yes that was a huge issue, the customer support. Lately I have not heard many complaints, but I will ask my forum members to see what they have to say. Back in those days, I was getting emails from viewers because their support was so bad. But I havent had any emails in recent times. It may have improved.
There's definitely a business opportunity here as everyone loves their Tesla and would like to have this capability. When someone finally gets a proper cable adaptor made, they can probably ask any price.
Really? What evidence do you base this claim on? I would hazard to guess that the market for an adaptor that allows for higher speed charging from a portable battery like this would be really small.
@@CamiloSantana I'm an engineering manager for a company that makes EV charging equipment as well as power cords for the automotive and heavy duty truck markets. I was legitimately asking the question.
@@danh2716 gotcha. senior engineer here dealing with fallout from a CEO that's getting too creative within legal limits. it might've made me sensitive on the criticizing ideas front. critical think away! my brain is fried from managing when I should be designing solutions. have a good one.
You just need to plug a in your power strip, combiner, or in one of your generators that has ground/neutral bonded. There's a commercial version you can buy called "Hughes Autoformers Ground Neutral Plug" but are only a few dollars to make. They're commonly used with open frame generators that have a floating neutral
@@WillProwse A plug like I described does exactly what you said your hacked up dogbone adapter does. Grounds bond and neutral. It would work unless the plugs on the ecoflow are completely separate circuits.
I get level 2 tesla charging off 2 delta pros with the voltage hub. For whatever reason, the tesla charger goes from red to green when you plug the AC of one pro into another then you get 240 V and 32 a. I'm not an electrician nor do I know if its advisable but it works for me
Could you please clarify, Are you plugging into the AC on the delta pros from one to the other? The reason I ask this is that using the voltage hub shuts off all AC ports on the DPs. Both output and input. So know this, I don't understand where you plugged one DP to the other. Thanks
Yeah i dont know the reason it works but thats the configuration. Ive been charging my car at work like this for about 6 months. I have 6 400w panels on a bbq shed. Each delta pro has a neutral bonding plug as well (how the system started). Im happy to walk you through the set up as im curious as to whats happening but its been working for 6 months. I get 32a @ 240V.
Looks like my fellow commenters beat me to the punch. This has been a temporary fix I've used when getting in new equipment from China for my place of work before I run a permanent electrical feed. Some equipment have this done within the control panel. I personally rather have the neutral and ground bond together within the electrical panel, but that's not how I often receive equipment.
@Will Prowse Will you be recommending a aftermarket solar array configurations for the current set up you are testing here? I bought the 2pros and 4batteries along with other bits. I'm waiting on the smart panel and also looking to max out my PV capture being mindful of the voltage of course.
I've done a ton of research and it's very very hard to find panels to conform to max 150V 15A and get near 1600W max. Most new high watt panels are around 50 Voc which means that if you live in colder climates, it will easily breach the 150V limit in colder weather. And most new panels have around 10 A current which means no way to parallel them. Really you can only hit around 1250W practically unless you want to buy a bunch of 210 or 100 W panels, which ends up costing a lot. I have a spreadsheet if you're interested in more.
A mobile unit has no earth and does not offer you an earth breaker protection. The charger does have earthing protection and will refuse any charging till it can sense ground. To fool the charger you bond neutral to ground
What "works" is not necessarily what is safe. Potential is relative . A ground connection is not a neutral connection for a reason. Ground and neutral are only relative terms. There are important safety reasons behind why the electrical code defines where to bond neutral and ground. I suggest you take an extra step to find out if the problem is a refusal to receive or a refusal to transfer the current. There are likely important safety differences built into the engineering specifications of the design.
It's floating so ground designation is somewhat relative. It doesn't have a metal case either. True Earth ground for AC charging circuit is provided by grounding conductor. One could argue that charge accumulation does occur but it's not a big issue. Really depends on your application and how you are connecting to grid.
I don't know... I think there is something wrong with all of them... Send them to my house so I can check them out... ;) Just kidding... I just bought 2 48v EG4 batteries day before yesterday for my system...
Any updates on an adapter to charge a Tesla with the Dual Voltage Hub? I tried and failed. Saw this video explaining why. Would grounding plugs work on the hub similar to getting a charge from a single Delta Pro? I’m having to swap out the Pro’s also using the Extra Battery. Would love to get the max output as you demonstrated.
I had a similar issue when I wired my forced air gas furnace to run off of my gasoline backup generator. The furnace wouldn't run without a true earth ground, which the generator doesn't have. So I bonded the furnace neutral to the house ground and it worked. The weird thing was that in the process of trying to figure this out, I plugged the furnace into my inverter, running off my car, to see if that would work and it did. But the car obviously doesn't have an earth ground either. So I'm still left wondering how the furnace knows in the first place what kind of ground it's connected to.
The furnace uses flame rectification to sense that the burner is lit. The cabinet of the furnace must be connected to the ground or bonding wire only and the neutral to the furnace is connected to ground at your power panel in only one spot. Your generator may not have the neutral connected to the bonding or ground wire, you can check it. Your inverter may have a neutral to bonding or ground wire connection you can check that as well. Look up flame rectification to see how it works. Your furnace should not have the neutral tied to the cabinet, the neutral should only be tied to the bonding or ground wire and ground earth at only one place in the service entrance. Hope this helps
Thanks Will, I am from a country called Zambia and I have been completely off-grid for a year now thanks to your videos and Tutorials. Please keep up the good work
I had read before that someone had connected a resistor between the ground and neutral and that tricked the Tesla system to charge. Nice work Will.
watched the first video then as soon as it ended you posted this one. my anticipation for finding a solution was very quickly resolved lol thanks for keeping on top of things and always giving your honest opinion. I respect that a lot.
The Delta Pro can be charged from a EV charging outlet, so it should certainly be possible to incorporate the charging of an EV into the unit as well.
Interesting to see that little has changed over the last 35 years. Back then I was building adaptors that where not offered commercially and today you are still building adaptors to make tech work for your needs.
Keep it up.
Can only imagine what obscure electrical issues you were building custom adapters for in the 80s. Cheers!
Yup, its a safety mechanism. Actual, several safety mechanisms. There are also GFCI requirements now too. Basically to prevent someone from electrocuting themselves on the car's frame while charging. Even though those solar chargers are 'isolated', that kinda goes out the window when one starts talking about high voltages. Circuitry inside the EV is definitely high voltage and the bulk of metal in there can result in a huge electric shock to a person (or between electronics in the vehicle and the vehicle frame) if it is not properly grounded while charging or if the AC neutral is not properly centered on ground.
-Matt
none of the batteries in the car or the solar's voltage has a ground reference so grounding it does nothing for safety. it is only applicable while charging from house power
@@jasonharrison25 You are missing the point pretty substantially. Read what I said more carefully. There are a lot of things that you can count on with low voltage DC that don't apply to high voltage AC. Also, we aren't talking about the vehicle's battery as much as we are talking about the in-vehicle charger and its frame.
L2 chargers (not just Tesla's, but all modern L2 chargers... its code)... L2 chargers require a solid neutral and a solid ground in order for their safety mechanisms to work properly. If one or the other is not connected, the L2 unit and/or in-vehicle AC-DC charger may not be able to detect current paths that might cause excessive common mode within the AC-DC charger or which might run through the vehicle's frame.
IN ADDITION, any fully isolated system trying to charge an EV can develop static charge on the EV's frame due to the high voltage AC being applied. This is why they aren't supported (not that it prevents people from doing it anyway, such as what Will just did in this video if he doesn't have a solid earth ground in that setup). This static charge can electrocute a person who provides a better path to earth ground to discharge it than the tires.
A few solar panels (a direct DC connection) generally doesn't have this problem, but any sort of AC can. High voltage / high current AC can become very dangerous in an isolated system. Particularly 240VAC where the primary current path is only between the two hots and the in-vehicle charger's synthesized neutral or ground has proximity to the vehicle frame. Which it does.
This means that any 120V or 240V charging of the vehicle REQUIRES a solid neutral and a solid ground, wired in a way that will not defeat charger or in-vehicle (GFCI style) safety mechanisms and which also provides a solid earth ground for the ground. Otherwise you are opening yourself up to serious electrocution risk when you touch the frame of the vehicle, and opening the vehicle electronics up to serious damage if the static charge is dissipated by other means (such as between the AC-DC charger in the vehicle and the vehicle's ground, or the vehicle's frame to earth ground).
There is also electrocution risk against the frame in an isolated ground situation because there is no current on the ground path to trip the GFCI in a wrong-path discharge situation.
This is an issue for a car in ways that it isn't for portable electronics simply due to the bulk of metal that can be charged up and the currents involved in a car.
In short, you need an earth ground and you need a properly separated neutral and ground (the neutral connection to earth ground has to be on the supply side of the GFCI or other safety mechanisms, not on the load side).
-Matt
you dont get this issue from an internal combustion engine lol
@@Channel-gz9hm You can go to school and become an electrical engineer, and then 40 years later comment on youtube videos replying to people that don't have a proper appreciation for electricity, kid.
I happen to like Will's videos. Quite a lot actually. He's usually bang-on. Not quite this time though. When multiple kW starts to get pushed in an AC system, a lot more caution is required.
-Matt
@@junkerzn7312 lots of people read what you write, take it in and think, "yeah, that makes sense." - especially the proper individual grounds/neutrals on the "client"/receiving side.
it sounds a lot like any other kind of engineering. the are rules to follow or you get too close to an incident occurring. thanks for your input.
Being able to charge up a EV and run my complete home is my primary interest in PV. At present I'm spending $230/week for fuel in my truck and around $550/Month in my home. With an efficient PV system it would really make a difference over time. Thanks for the heads up, I will avidly watch.
me too, plus setting up a crypto-mining operation
Your electric bill is $550 a month? Wow thats high. You mine crpyto?
@@benc1927 No Crypto on this end. We have a pool motor and chlorinator running 8 - 10 hours/day. I'm not complaining. The payback with PV for our house and car would be perhaps half what others would experience.
Stay safe.
I charged my friend tesla 3 with the 3 prog house plug and I added a Huges ground plug. To it and charged it at 120v @ 5 miles per h
On 1 EcoFlow Delta Pro. So it works 💪
Good to hear, this solution usually works. You may want to see how close to ecoflow you can get that neutral/ground tie, as per code. Floating neutrals are common on generators to transfer switch emergency power, as the main panel should have the only tie. And because of that, always ground your gen.
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We are not talking about the 120V outlets or circuits. This video and the one before it are specific to 240V charging only. I am trying to find a cable or adapter that works for 240V, not 120V. I can't imagine anyone charging a tesla with 120V. That would be absolutely awful.
One thing was confused me in previous video: 120 Vac readings between each hot and ground. This led to wrong suggestion, that neutral ang ground is bonded somewhere. For example, each unit can have individual bonding. But, this new video cleared sutuation: I suggest, that 120 Vac measurings between each hot and ground were possible though filter capacitors, that must be installed between neutral and ground in each inverter unit. So, capacitance of these capacitors was enough to carry multimeter's measuring current to show 120 V, but wasn't enough to carry measuring current of Tesla's EVSE unit. It seems, that "strong" metallic bonding is needed between combined neutral and system's ground wires (as Code requires for domestic circuits). Even if system is not actually connected to ground electrodes.
@@WillProwse Agreed. I had thought that the 120 30amp rv plugs from each unit were used in the 220 combiner and its the RV plugs that were wired wrong on the pre-prod units. If that was the case, then I would have expected the RV plugs to pass neutral incorrectly to the combiner.
I only have one Delta Pro that is a production model so I can't test mine.
Sorry if I was wrong on that. Anyway, good luck on your testing and always enjoy the videos.
@@sergeyblinov4957 True :-) - I think exactly the same. See the post I made in the former video.
There absolutely should not be any plug or outlet sold that bonds ground and neutral together. That would be a huge violation of code and ultra dangerous for any consumer-facing device.
Presumably that generator is producing split-phase output (same as your house), so it would be 120VAC on each hot, 180 degrees out of phase. Measuring between the hots gives you 240VAC.
The ground absolutely must connect to earth ground somehow. If the generator is fully isolated and the ground is not connected to the house ground, then that's a huge safety problem for charging a vehicle. In a similar fashion, the neutral must also ultimately connect to the same hard ground (in the U.S. anyway). But since there is no neutral on the 6-50 you now have a slightly more complex problem.
* If the L2 charger has an integrated GFCI then you can get away with tying neutral and ground together at the generator.
* If the L2 charger does not have an integrated GFCI then you have to add a GFCI breaker inbetween the generator and the L2 charger, and you can tie ground and neutral together on the generator side of that breaker.
* You still need a hard ground to earth in some manner or another for safety. Otherwise the vehicle's frame can develop common mode potential vs earth ground that is enough to shock or kill a person. This can occur because the vehicle is messing around with high voltage AC and the AC fields can easily cause a charge differential to accumulate on the vehicle due to interactions with everything around the vehicle.
-Matt
Perfect example of community working together to fix problems. Nice job and thanks for a quick update. Also would love to see your mining setup. Was there a video I missed about this?
I saw this on my feed immediately after watching the other video and I was like "wait... didn't that JUST come out??"
If you look in the ecoflow community you’ll see a video clip where I charged my Tesla with 2x delta pros through a home transfer switch. The UMC will check for voltage between hot and ground to assure that it can provide ground fault protection if needed.
Where are you bonding your neutrals and grounds
@@WillProwse initially since I used an ATS it was bonded at my home’s service panel because I am using my wall connector. However I rigged up an adapter I built that takes the twist lock, bonds neutral and ground and gives you a 14-30 out. I have the adapter for the UMC for 30 amps, but you could also do it for the 6-50 OR the 14-50. I tested, it works and it’s there in a pinch if needed.
Thanks for giving more info on the Ecoflow. With your testing and documenting the performance I can see this unit as an easy gateway to solar for a lot of folks. You also have to have a lot of confidence in your skills to go hooking up one to your $120k car! Personally, I always listen when you say “don’t try this at home”.
You are soooo cool. I didn't have the slightest notion that Delta doesn't have an E Car charging setup adaptable to Tesla or any other e vehicle. That's totally nuts that they don't. Anyway thank you for pursuing that which is right for everyone.
Glad it worked out I knew it would. Stoked to see the video on the efp
Thank you for the focus on ways of using solar to charge cars!
One of these days I'll finally absorb enough of your info to be able to set myself up!
This is the reason I am considering the EF Deelta Pro for my cottage. If they come up with a plug and play solution I will be on this. Great Channel!
Thanks Will, I am gonna wait for those reviews with that awesome Delta Pro.
For all those people that pointed out that EV cars stranded on the side of the road during interstate shutdowns would somehow be at a disadvantage to the gasoline cars because someone could just bring a gallon of gas: this could be a fantastic option. Ecoflow Delta Pro + EV adapter + 15 minutes = enough charge drive the cars to a charging location.
Ignoring that towing the EV for a mile would also allow enough regenerative charge for the EV to finish the trip to the nearest charger (use that search bar to find some). Also ignoring that a stuck EV would only use around 1% of it's energy per hour to keep the occupants comfortable (several great videos posted on RUclips demonstrating this by now) and would outlast all the gasoline cars also stuck around them, and still probably be able to drive themselves away while all those gasoline cars were waiting for their fuel to come.
how do you tow a Tesla that allows it to do regenerative charging? will a Tesla charge from the rear wheels only when the front are stationary on the tow truck?
Great hack. Ecoflow should include not only a separate adapter but a built-in NEMA-1450 receptacle on the side of the Box.
Thanks will. Appreciate the insight. I’m in contact with them too for making a longer cable that connects the smart batteries to the main unit. Seems like they have some things to develop that they could definitely sell.
I have to agree with you Will. Those Delta Pro's are really impressive.
Those Delta Pro's are really something. Can't believe how much capacity they have.
That was a fast follow up! Thanks for letting us know the solution, it's interesting (at least to me).
Didn’t have a chance to watch previous video, however great information ℹ️.
My modification to the generator plug on the adapter to NEMA 14-50. I soldered a 20 Ga copper wire between the neutral and ground pins and made a trench between then so the wire didn't interfere with plugging it into the Delta Pro 240 volt combiner.
Thanks for the video. I use the ecoflow Pro with solar to keep my Tesla Roadster topped off.
I use a neutral ground bonding plug to fix that problem. That simple! And safe...
I did a similar thing (bonded neutral and ground) with 240 volt output from Magna Sine inverter and it works for EV charging as well. Will try this from my EF Hub. Thanks Will
finally, been asking this guy to review an eco flow again, ever since he had rants about "crowd funded items" thanks !!!
I think this is the future for EV’s and home solar
I'm astonished on how these Delta Pro's are changing the renewable power landscape.
Id recommend using a 4 pole plug that way no mods are necessary. This way certainly works but would bypass a gfci function. A 4 pole would not because it would still allow the gfci to see the difference in potential between ground and neutral.
Its a mute point it will still trip a circuit if something grounds, but something to be aware of.
Yes, that is why I am using a different plug altogether. NEMA 14-50 is a 4 pole plug. And it requires modification. I am not using a 6-50 plug, and that is what I said in the video.
The "ground" designation is quite tricky in this circuit. But yes I see your point about GFCI. But I do not use the neutral with 6-50 on my floating system, and it should work just fine. I think it is the current going only to ground. The neutral is not connected in that configuration.
Sorry I missed that about the 14-50 connector. It must have to do with tesla's programming needing to see 0v difference on neutral and ground and with the floating neutral.
typically with a transformer you have to bond 1 of the secondary legs to ground.
Id say on this type of system if it is not already bonded to do so may damage the solar generator if its not designed for that. Im sure with you im preaching to the choir. Love your channel bro.
@@paulm2785 yes I am hoping it does not hurt something, I agree. Thanks!!
Can't deny that the applications and uses for the Delta Pro are endless.
Hi Will. Love your channel. Just finished reading your book "Mobile Solar Power" and left a review on Amazon (under honshirabe). The book inspired me to put together a small solar power source for my ham radio station (VE3OQ). It consists of Renogy 30A charge controller and 100W solar panel. The battery is a 50Ah ECO_WORTHY LiFePO4 battery. Small, yes, but enough to power my radio station. Thanks for your help. Been a fan for years.
I'm looking forward to watching your Delta Pro review. Love your videos!
Victron's have a neutral relay to connect neutral and earth based on software settings
Great videos, I’m sure your already on it but I would like to see how long it can charge the tesla before depletion along with how it does also when solar panels are hooked up to it and then depletion.
I had the same problem with my RV. The Southwire transfer switch. Neither the Eco flow delta or my Gro-Watt would work with an open ground. 30 Amp 120 volts. I ended up adding a neutral bond wire and switch to the input of the transfer switch. Whenever I'm going to use my Gro-watt I just flip the switch before I turn the Gro-watt on. When I'm using shore power I flip it off.
Awesome! Will does it again…👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼🎯
I appreciate all your research. Helps us a lot when deciding what to buy. I have been keeping my eyes on those ecoflows, they look sweet.
You be the energy MAN, fo sure
Always love your videos can’t wait to see your review on the pro!
Depends.
On the HPWC there is no neutral. Two hots and a ground.
If you order a 6-30 adapter from Tesla it should work.
There’s a chip in your 14-50 mobile connector that expects a neutral. And when neutral isn’t present it won’t work.
The various adapters communicate back to the mobile power connector.
Awesome, glad you got it to work!
Thanks for the update
Thank You for All that you are doing for World Peace and for our Planet...
Peace.. Shalom.. Salam.. La Paz.. Namaste ..
🙏🏻 😊 🌈 ✌ ☮️ ❤️ 💐 🕊
Can’t wait till you do the review!
I saw an adapter on someone else’s RUclips channel. Can’t remember who. But it was not for high voltage.
That's great you got it to work! awesome, but maybe use some butt splice crimps with heat shrink to make the connections permanent instead of marrettes taped up(that's dangerous).
They way your life is going Will, I think you’re gonna need a bigger safe !
Would love to see you put together a cheap lightweight setup for travel trailer.
So I love your videos I see you make your own is there a place I can find that adapter on line what I’m Looking for can you tell me what kind of adapter is available online or in store
Just curious why you didn't use the Tesla 10-30 adapter that they sell?
Makes sense. I wonder if ground-neutral bonding works to solve issues with other floating inverters.
Nice work!
Can you fit the two Ecoflow Delta Pros and the two expansion batteries inside the Tesla? How much range do they add? It's neat to think that you may be able to expand the range of an EV with an external battery onboard.
There was one with All Powers giving 15 minutes more range (only) but these could give more.
Oh that would be awful. Especially with the weight of these units. I would never do that.
@@WillProwse Easy to forget the weight when you do the heavy lifting work out 💪🏽 I just got a tiny battery and even that is 4,5kg 🐶🤣 So yes a very bad idea.
How long will it take to charge the Tesla?
I wonder if they are verifying a ground presence by inserting a small current off one leg into either ground or neutral and checking for voltage between ground and neutral. With both bonded properly (as they would be in a power panel) there would be no difference in voltage. With a floating power supply situation that would be one way to verify that there is a ground present.
The Tesla may need a neutral for level one charging , 120v. Maybe Tesla didn’t think to isolate neutral for level 2?
I charge level 1 (120V) with a MPP Hybrid LV2424 inverter and yep, the mobile connector requires neutral to ground bond.
You're The Man Wil
I saw your comments on Tech Ingredients about using mirrors. Don't try this in Texas its 110 degrees in the summer, might be OK in North Dekota. I was testing some panels yesterday it was 48 degrees and full sun at noon, panels got on high side of warm after only 2 hours.
I don't quite understand? How about a wiring diagram! So black 1 to black 1 and black 2 to black 2 and common white and ground green to ground green??? You really did not explain clearly?
I have a Delta Max wich charges my Nissan Leaf with the wallcharger that Nissan supplies. But it warns for faulty ground connection. But still it works at least
NEMA 6-50 would probably work if its ground was bonded to the neutral. Just because the connector and Tesla doesn't have a neutral, doesn't mean it can't sense if they're bonded.
Yes exactly
So useful, need the neutral!
But, what about charging the aolar generator from the tesla, like when its at a lvl2?
Really helpful, thank you
Tesla does sell NEMA 6-50 adapter for its mobile connector which does not need neutral.
That's what I used in the first video. Did you miss that?
Thank you.
Purchase 2x (Southwire Company LLC Neutral-Ground Bonding Plug), plug both into those two separate receptacles on your power strip and you’ll get the same effect.
120V bonding plug? I would rather bond at one point for safety reasons, on the 240V spot. Hmmm I wonder if the neutral of the generator plug is the ground of the other outlets. Those ones do not have a neutral, but maybe they are not wired as we think they are...
@@WillProwse I’d check continuity of all ground locations and all neutral locations… if there all showing continuity to each other than technically you only need 1x of a 5-15 ground-neutral bonding plug because it’s doing the same job as if you cracked open those units and made your own jumper wire from ground to neutral.
@@cybertrk They are using the same ground, so if I plugged my charger into the other receptacles, I would not have a neutral and it would not work. Very interesting.
@@WillProwse keep in mind the neutral is not in use via the Tesla charging cable it only requires that the neutral and ground are bonded somewhere, anywhere… so you could plug into another receptacle and it’ll work fine since all grounds are one wire.
So I bet you can literally jump the neutral to ground anywhere and use your 5-50 plug just fine. It’ll work.
@@cybertrk ohhh ok good point
Very cool, Will. I wonder if you might be able to using NEMA15 (2), strap neutral to ground (3rd wire) and plug into those 120vac sockets? Of course, I don't know if the Tesla or the Ecoflow had to "see" this connectivity to work. We have to do a similar thing on an 30A RV when using a small generator, such as a Honda 2000/2200 inverter generator and a PDI EMS. The EMS won't cut through with an open ground. Just a thought. Thanks.
Hey there!! Could u s at up a female receptor on those milk crate solar generators u made sometime ago to be charged at and EV charging station. This could be used in charging ur milk crate solar generator while ur chargeing ur electric 4x4 ur going buy for camping in quartsite AZ?? Ciao & carpe diem!!
Even better work !🤔😀✅
The ecoflows produces an Isolated Grid
the tesla charger tries to measure the resistance between protective earth and the phases - if it detect the ground cant carry a load it will shut off automatically as it has done.
In Europe for example in Norway the tesla UMC allows to turn off the grounding check because there it mostly cant be done like on yours here
ans so far as i have noticed most chargers in europe were to dumb to detect a misssing ground connection - including the tesla umc - but they still advertise with this feature on the Stickers. So i'm quite surprised the US model handles this more serious
I don't think that such a cable is legal to sell. Because I doubt that it is up to code.
Indeed true
Just a heads up, EVSE Adapter has a Tesla plug for twist lock 14-30
Surprising That you were able to connect the neutral and ground together. Most inexpensive inverters output an inverted sine wave on the Neutral terminal so shorting them to ground destroys the inverter.
It's because the ground is floating.
@@WillProwse that makes sense. The car tests the resistance between the two hots and ground to make sure ground is connected.
@@jonathanviventi1380 yes exactly
That explains why the Tesla charges, but it doesn't seem like this would work for all inverters. I've measured some that put a -60v sine wave on the neutral and +60v on the hot to get 120v. Bonding neutral and ground might damage those inverters. Can you scope your inverter hots and neutrals?
Wait... so the Hardy-Board did the trick??? Looking forward to the full EF D Pro review. I watched a previous review you did of a smaller model and one thing you mentioned was the lackluster customer support. Do you feel they have improved in that regard?
Yes that was a huge issue, the customer support. Lately I have not heard many complaints, but I will ask my forum members to see what they have to say. Back in those days, I was getting emails from viewers because their support was so bad. But I havent had any emails in recent times. It may have improved.
There's definitely a business opportunity here as everyone loves their Tesla and would like to have this capability. When someone finally gets a proper cable adaptor made, they can probably ask any price.
Really? What evidence do you base this claim on?
I would hazard to guess that the market for an adaptor that allows for higher speed charging from a portable battery like this would be really small.
@@danh2716 who hurt you, buddy?
the guy is just brain storming.
@@CamiloSantana I'm an engineering manager for a company that makes EV charging equipment as well as power cords for the automotive and heavy duty truck markets. I was legitimately asking the question.
@@danh2716 gotcha. senior engineer here dealing with fallout from a CEO that's getting too creative within legal limits. it might've made me sensitive on the criticizing ideas front.
critical think away! my brain is fried from managing when I should be designing solutions.
have a good one.
Have you seen the Arc Flash Gauss rifle? Forgotten Weapons has a couple videos on it.
Yeah u need to derive a ground for sure
You just need to plug a in your power strip, combiner, or in one of your generators that has ground/neutral bonded. There's a commercial version you can buy called "Hughes Autoformers Ground Neutral Plug" but are only a few dollars to make. They're commonly used with open frame generators that have a floating neutral
That would not work. We are not touching the 120V circuits here.
@@WillProwse A plug like I described does exactly what you said your hacked up dogbone adapter does. Grounds bond and neutral. It would work unless the plugs on the ecoflow are completely separate circuits.
@@FullSendPrecision ohh no those are 240V outlets, they wouldn't fit
@@WillProwse Is there continuity between the neutral on the 120 and 240 outlets?
@@FullSendPrecision When you plug in the Dual Voltage Hub it actually shuts off all AC plugs on the Delta pros, both output and input.
I'm pretty sure Andy from the Off Grid Garage went thru this same thing last year with his Model 3
With 240V???
How many hours can ecoflow pro with extra battery(7.2Kw total) can charge a Tesla?
Did you e er get a reply? I need the same info.
Good to know
I get level 2 tesla charging off 2 delta pros with the voltage hub. For whatever reason, the tesla charger goes from red to green when you plug the AC of one pro into another then you get 240 V and 32 a. I'm not an electrician nor do I know if its advisable but it works for me
Could you please clarify, Are you plugging into the AC on the delta pros from one to the other? The reason I ask this is that using the voltage hub shuts off all AC ports on the DPs. Both output and input. So know this, I don't understand where you plugged one DP to the other. Thanks
Yeah i dont know the reason it works but thats the configuration. Ive been charging my car at work like this for about 6 months. I have 6 400w panels on a bbq shed. Each delta pro has a neutral bonding plug as well (how the system started). Im happy to walk you through the set up as im curious as to whats happening but its been working for 6 months. I get 32a @ 240V.
not fair i must have watched and commented at the same time this video came out lol
Looks like my fellow commenters beat me to the punch.
This has been a temporary fix I've used when getting in new equipment from China for my place of work before I run a permanent electrical feed.
Some equipment have this done within the control panel. I personally rather have the neutral and ground bond together within the electrical panel, but that's not how I often receive equipment.
Good job....
awesome. we just bought a vw id.4 and wondering if there was a way to have portable L2 emergency charging without using an LPG invertor generator.
@Will Prowse Will you be recommending a aftermarket solar array configurations for the current set up you are testing here?
I bought the 2pros and 4batteries along with other bits. I'm waiting on the smart panel and also looking to max out my PV capture being mindful of the voltage of course.
I've done a ton of research and it's very very hard to find panels to conform to max 150V 15A and get near 1600W max. Most new high watt panels are around 50 Voc which means that if you live in colder climates, it will easily breach the 150V limit in colder weather. And most new panels have around 10 A current which means no way to parallel them. Really you can only hit around 1250W practically unless you want to buy a bunch of 210 or 100 W panels, which ends up costing a lot. I have a spreadsheet if you're interested in more.
A mobile unit has no earth and does not offer you an earth breaker protection. The charger does have earthing protection and will refuse any charging till it can sense ground. To fool the charger you bond neutral to ground
What "works" is not necessarily what is safe. Potential is relative . A ground connection is not a neutral connection for a reason. Ground and neutral are only relative terms. There are important safety reasons behind why the electrical code defines where to bond neutral and ground. I suggest you take an extra step to find out if the problem is a refusal to receive or a refusal to transfer the current. There are likely important safety differences built into the engineering specifications of the design.
It's floating so ground designation is somewhat relative. It doesn't have a metal case either. True Earth ground for AC charging circuit is provided by grounding conductor. One could argue that charge accumulation does occur but it's not a big issue. Really depends on your application and how you are connecting to grid.
Great job, I have searched and find no review by you for the LiFeBlue batteries. Have u tested them?
You just need a bonding plug
They sell a neutral ground plug on Amazon for like 7 dollars
I don't know... I think there is something wrong with all of them... Send them to my house so I can check them out... ;)
Just kidding... I just bought 2 48v EG4 batteries day before yesterday for my system...
Hi thanks! Do you know if any company ever created an adapter? If not, how much would you charge to make one?
Any updates on an adapter to charge a Tesla with the Dual Voltage Hub? I tried and failed. Saw this video explaining why. Would grounding plugs work on the hub similar to getting a charge from a single Delta Pro? I’m having to swap out the Pro’s also using the Extra Battery. Would love to get the max output as you demonstrated.
I had a similar issue when I wired my forced air gas furnace to run off of my gasoline backup generator. The furnace wouldn't run without a true earth ground, which the generator doesn't have. So I bonded the furnace neutral to the house ground and it worked. The weird thing was that in the process of trying to figure this out, I plugged the furnace into my inverter, running off my car, to see if that would work and it did. But the car obviously doesn't have an earth ground either. So I'm still left wondering how the furnace knows in the first place what kind of ground it's connected to.
The furnace uses flame rectification to sense that the burner is lit. The cabinet of the furnace must be connected to the ground or bonding wire only and the neutral to the furnace is connected to ground at your power panel in only one spot. Your generator may not have the neutral connected to the bonding or ground wire, you can check it. Your inverter may have a neutral to bonding or ground wire connection you can check that as well. Look up flame rectification to see how it works. Your furnace should not have the neutral tied to the cabinet, the neutral should only be tied to the bonding or ground wire and ground earth at only one place in the service entrance. Hope this helps