Why are people NOT buying raw LiFePO4 cells?
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- Опубликовано: 3 фев 2022
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Every video includes some form of paid promotion or sponsorship. Some links on this youtube channel may be affiliate links. We may get paid if you buy something or take an action after clicking one of these. My videos are for educational purposes only. Information is subject to change/update at any time. Electricity is DANGEROUS and can kill. Be smart and use common sense :)
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Server rack batteries: www.mobile-solarpower.com/server-rack-lifepo4.html
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*Does off-grid solar confuse you?*
Check out my DIY friendly website for solar system packages and product recommendations, and so much more!
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*Join our DIY solar community*
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*Check out my Book*
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If DIY is not for you, but you love solar and need an offgrid system, check out Tesla Energy! They will price out a system and get your house offgrid: ts.la/william57509
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*Rich Solar*
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*Battery Hookup*
Cheap cell deals
bit.ly/2mIxSqt
5% off code: diysolar
*Contact Information:*
I am NOT available for personal solar system consult! If you wish to contact me, this is my direct email: williamprowsediysolar@gmail.com
Join the forum at diysolarforum.com/ if you wish to hang out with myself and others and talk about solar
*FTC Disclosure Statement and Disclaimers:*
Every video includes some form of paid promotion or sponsorship. Some links on this youtube channel may be affiliate links. We may get paid if you buy something or take an action after clicking one of these. My videos are for educational purposes only. Information is subject to change/update at any time. Electricity is DANGEROUS and can kill. Be smart and use common sense :)
DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program,
An affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com
Video idea how to DIY server rack battery equivalent to the eg4? Or the soz?
I imagine the price is going to be a lot more I would still be interested just to know how to do it/skills and such so there's a video idea. Thanks for you're great content and education videos
What are the components i would need to make my own house battery setup??
Solar panels?
Inverter?
Batteries?
Please im just stating these i dont really know too much, a general breakdown is fine
So, your message, from this video, is, 'EVE cells are among the best, but buy a server rack instead, because the whole systems cost less, have a warranty, and there is no hassle and time investment in building them.' Thanks for that. 🙂
This is probably not a new suggestion, but I would love to see you look at how to do a whole house backup system using server rack batteries. Call it a Tesla Wall alternative. With server rack batteries getting better and cheaper, I have to imagine that this can become more practical, even as a grid tied (whole house UPS) kind of way.
Yes, please!
I want to do exactly this and maybe add solar later. Having a hard time finding information. The problem I've heard is that if you aren't discharging and charging these often they degrade faster. Supposedly LiFePo shouldnt be kept at 100% charge for long periods of time, which is exactly what I'd be doing if using several server rack batteries as a house backup.
Yes please!
Excellent video idea. I volunteer my house for the install.
Will does specialize in off-grid systems, but I, too, wish he would do a huge size whole-house grid-tied battery solar system.
I work in the lithium battery industry and I have handled many warranty cases of pre-built 12V LFP batteries. One of the most common warranty claims is the battery can’t be charged to a high voltage. The reason behind is there is one bad cell out of balance, thus triggers BMS protection much sooner. Vice versa on discharge. So the actual usable capacity is much less or down to zero! And another common problem is the BMS board is damaged, even and all the cells are good, the whole battery is a trash. It’s very unfortunate! And also people don’t know how to use it probably, and they choose wrong chargers meant for lead acid batteries all the time which can be very harmful to LFP.. If I have to choose between raw cells and pre-built, I would refer build my own so I know how everything works together and how to fix it in long term. And another question to think about is will those companies exist in 5 years, 10 years when you need a warranty? I'd prefer to know the technology well and be independent.
Checking in after a long time. I am so impressed how far you have come in the past 7 years or so... so happy to see you grow and be successful.
The server rack batteries are an easier option and they look nice but I'm not giving up on building my own battery yet. I built one 2 years ago and really enjoyed it. Of course, I couldn't have done that without Will's videos so many thanks for that. I can build a 48v battery using brand new Eve 280ah cells ($135 each shipped from Georgia (from the battery store). After shipping and a BMS I'm coming in very close to $2,660 for a 14kwh battery. A new EG4 5kwh battery is $1419 ($1536 including shipping). I'm not getting the pretty package or the convenience but since this equipment lives in my basement and I don't have to look at it I really don't care. I'm getting much more bang for my buck building my own. The savings I get from doing this allows me to purchase and build a larger battery bank. I'd rather have the additional storage instead of the pretty package. For $1,124 more + my time I get almost 3X the amount of storage.
Not to mention the practical knowledge you gain for troubleshooting down the road. That knowledge is priceless.
Thank you for sharing your experience with building your own battery! It's great to hear that you enjoy the process and have found Will's videos helpful. While building your own battery definitely has its advantages, I wanted to mention the Segway Portable PowerStation Cube Series as an alternative. With its massive capacity, powerful output, and fast recharging capabilities, it could be a valuable addition to your outdoor gear. Just thought I'd share this option with you to consider. Happy camping and stay powered up!
Are you sure it isn't just paying for you to miss work to build and maintain a battery with no warranty?
Thanks for all of the video support over the past few years.
I'd really appreciate a follow-up video showing the full potential of the Electrodacus SBMS0. It's such a powerful tool for the diy'er.
Thanks again Will, you were the first person to begin showing me how to build a system 3 years ago. Your video on 24v systems enticed me to take that route and I'm grateful for all that you do man, thanks again.
Totally agree. I'm planning a large system and the server rack style is the answer. I also just built a 12v 280ah kit from Sun Fun Kits for my camper. Best form factor for my needs
DIY lithium batteries have a HUGE stigma in the RV community. Every single person I've told about my DIY battery has responded negatively. But the flexibility of individual cells let me fit 700 ah @ 12v of lithium in the space of 2 lead acid batteries.
LiFePO4, right? very safe imo...educate them.
@@whattheschmidt They haven't been concerned about the safety, but the risk of failure not being worth the cost savings "Oh I had a friend who did that and all the cells all went bad and left him in the dark. I'd much rather buy BattleBorn and know it won't fail on me!"
I'd say that 75% of the people running lithium in the RV world use entirely BattleBorn batteries, and see anything else as inferior.
probably because they are dumb and mess it up
ive given up on lithium batteries their too costly and after 1 week too 6 months i am replacing them for my Tesla motor bike because they are completely dead no recovering ...
@@EpicGamingEct Your lithium batteries should not be failing that quickly. I have personally fully killed two battery set ups through sheer over use and it takes a good 9 months of hard use before even the cheaper batteries die. Had the batteries used better quality cells then they would have lasted longer
My system built with your help is going on it's 3rd year now. Your videos and book made it happen. Thanks!
What I love about your channel is your Disclosure and Brutal Honesty, even if it goes against your previous reviews.
Yeah. Legendary guy.
The main reason sales have dropped is the cost involved with buying raw cells. I would love to build a battery pack when the price drops.
BS thats the main reason
Uhhh8
I just got your book in the mail and planning on a solar system for a bug out/camping rig. You my friend need to do more of these books. Just gold
$889 for the cells, there's your answer. When you did the review on the $450 280Ah cells that made plenty of sense to DIY, but at twice that it's probably a pass for most folks when for not that much more you can get a complete solution. One the shipping issues clear up and someone can start importing them by the container load and get that $/kWh back down for the raw cells then it will be an option.
This is the exact reason why I didn't do diy
@@lifewithbootstrap2087 exactly, I looked at a DIY 48V ebike battery and it was cheaper and quicker to buy a prebuilt battery with warranty.
I have been looking at these types of cells since following this Channel and it's always been the case where they are too expensive, with questionable quality control and the risk of buying some lemons.. Server rack mount is looking like my best bet.
@@davedree and with a 3d printer it's easy to make brackets and sockets for off the shelf batteries. like the guy that built a bike to run off drill batteries
Yea man! My friend built a system with these batteries two years ago. I just laughed when I saw the price increase. Unfortunately lots of companies think if they give out some free products and gain popularity, they can charge WAY more for their products. They literally price them selves out of the market.!.
This is the exact reason I changed my plans. DIY is only worth it if it is actually a great deal.
Exactly, there were cheap and good at first, then the scammers sold junk and the good ones prices doubled.
I was just talking about this with a friend. The industry sure has changed since I built my battery just two years ago! Might be time to upgrade. Thanks for always keeping it real Will !
When I learned to create circuits, were 3 stages: polarization, stabilization then charge/load.
You had to design your circuit that way because their was quite some delay for the current to establish through some components and you even had to have an inverse polarization for a brief time to keep some components to degrade or just have them to work. You usually designed alternative routes using capacitors and pull down resistor strategically placed ^^
The classical one was anything to do with some kind of latches, like a switch, where you had to put a capacitor in parallel with a pull down. (seen as short for the impulse, but open circuit for continuous current)
Today, most engineers don't even WTF I am talking about! Now it's closer to Lego than it was before.
Even at higher level, you would do SIC, now FPGA are so fast and cheap that is is a workable and easier solution ^^
Luckily, things improve over time!
@@programaths Wow no kidding sounds like so many intricacies to deal with. Briefly reversing polarity are you kidding me? LOL I am learning software engineering and the same is true. Used to be so challenging to design basic functional elements but new frameworks have made it so you can get the same result with just a few lines of code! Still have to know the hard way but definitely becoming like legos and only will become moreso like it over time! Thank god for advancements in tech.
O
I think you hit the nail on the head at the end. I, too, have become an "accidental welder" just working with my lead-acid car batteries. Doesn't really faze me, but I could see that experience being terrifying to a new DIYer. That said, the only case I might do a raw cell system is when it needs to be large, high-uptime, and I want to be able to quickly swap cells. Even then, the server rack battery kinda makes sense, just need to bypass the unit being removed (or wire everything to common rails, so the missing cell isn't immediately noticed).
I'm glad you're still covering this, I really needed this opportunity to make my own battery, so thanks.
I'm new to this topic and you're killing it. Thank you for the high value content.
I recently brought 12 280ah cells and cost wise it was massively cheaper. Using them to charge the batteries when electric is cheap at night and discharge during the day when electricity is 4x more expensive. No issues so far and already making substantial savings on my electricity bill. Tempted to add another 12 in parallel in the near future.
Which state are you?
@@miguelv431 Commufornia is like that.
Do you setup controller to automatically switch between grid and battery, charge battery at night when it’s low? And what parameters are used? I ask because I’m doing this with my Growatt on daily basis. But it is only based on voltage not SOC when switching between grid and battery which is not accurate enough.
@@bzu4113 So my setup is roughly 10kw of storage and roughly 1.75kw of charger capacity. I discharge a total of 6kw from the batteries during the course of 20 hours. Basically a constant 300w after losses. At 2am when the cheaper rate starts my smart plug switches off the grid tie inverter. At 2am another smart plug switches on the 1.75kw of charger power until 6am. At 6am the chargers switch off and the grid tie inverter switches back on. This means that instead of paying 24p kwh im paying 6p. Its currently saving me £1.14 a day in energy usage. Limiting factor at the moment is the charger needs to really be 2.5kw so that i can fully recover the batteries in that 4 hour period. Im based in the UK where we are currently going through an energy crisis with costs of gas and electric set to rise 55% in April
@@Marks-Garage nice setup. Do you have a video of this on your channel? That would be great content!
Will, I have been following batteries and cells for a year. It is so much easier and cheaper to buy a ready built battery, it doesn’t make economic sense to build your own. 100 AH, 12 volt batteries are right at $300 each. You can’t buy the part for that price. And that is from Amazon. Server batteries are not much more than the 12 volt, 100 AH ready made batteries. It wasn’t that long ago, those same batteries were $1,000 each. Can’t wait to see what 2022 brings.
Just subscribed because of your clear enunciation and descriptions, to the point, ie, not long winded or repetitive conversation, thanks and keep up the good work.
I just completed an order for 132 these same 280 AH EVE cells (received them 2 days ago via container ship from China). I paid a total of $15,759.48 including shipping. Using Will’s math that calculates to $0.1333 per watt (15759.48 / 3.2x280x132 = 0.133248). I can build great batteries for that per watt price for cells, far less expensively than a prebuilt rack mount battery, and still have enough cash left over to replace them myself and still come out ahead compared to a “warranty” from a manufacturer. Just saying…
That is dirt cheap!!! What bms?
I live in an off grid area near Virginia City Nevada and have a group of friends that pooled our needs and ordered the cells in bulk. I bought this most recent order of EVE 280ah cells thru Shenzhen Basen Technologies. Many of us have used lead acid set ups for years, but are now switching to LiFePO4 for a variety of reasons (mainly by educating ourselves viewing your videos!). I buy my BMS’ thru Shenzhen E-Fire Technologies. They sell CLRD BMS’ that have low temp protection, and are the same BMS’ sold by Overkill Solar as far as I can tell. Some of my friends buy their BMS’ from Overkill directly. As the area gets cold we generally build our batteries using RV tank heaters or honey bee hive heater pads. It’s pretty easy to set up an nice insulated battery box with heater and BMS for a really decent price. I currently have a rough cabin, outbuilding, workshop, greenhouse, and well shed built out using solar and LiFePO4 batteries that I’ve built, and they all work great! When I finish building my “real house” I’ll probably use a 24v or 48v based system, but for now I run 12v dc everywhere, and use RV appliances and other “hacked” regular appliances. I do use inverter/chargers, but mostly it’s all DC all the time. Being able to build these batteries saves me a LOT of money vs buying prebuilt. And as I enjoy building Raspberry Pi, Arduino, ESP32/ESP8266/NodeMCU devices anyway I can power everything very easily with buck (or boost) converters.
@@madmacks
Very innovative! So rewarding to hear enthusiasts and experimenters are still out there.
Gary, why don't you have some videos on what you are doing? Just saying.. sound interesting on all you have done.
Could you recommend a video where you built a battery or system for RV's? I know a lot of us would be very interested.
I know it is not a quick answer but Will has several videos in the archives on his channel about building a system. He even goes into a solar system for dummies classes. I wish I could direct you with a link. But honestly everything you need is there and he may have an e-mail for a specific question.
He has done that several times.
Buy hybe eltrc ev
They need to drop the price on raw cells and they would get more sales, i'd love to do a DIY but the price on assembled batteries with a warranty wins out except for doctor prepare they suck i know lol.
yeah till they make cheaper priced batteries for building batterie packs
We really need someone to make a video on how to make them from scratch and price out all the parts for entry level, intermediate power and the bigger stuff. I'm sure your sales will blow up 10 fold (no pun intended)!!
I REALLY would like to see you short one of the Eve batteries out so we could all see the ending result!
Thanks for all the great vids!
I liked building my own battery with the raw cells. It gave me a better understanding of how they work. It also gave me a better feel towards my system, like when i look at it, I feel proud of what I've done. I do agree with your statement that for just few cents/kwh, getting the server rack is worth it for less hassle.
for a few more cents/kWh I can just get electricity from the grid, or just a few more cents and I can just rent a place with free electricity.
a few more and I can just rent a rom with everything included.
the cent per X is not a valid point, ease of upgrade, ease of tinkering, is a huge factor when it comes to "DIY"... obviously it's never going to be cheaper per unit.
but when it comes to service? it's never going to be as easy.
when it comes to understanding, that's where you get your value for money.
"I had to repair X and Y because of Z failing on me A or B times, but if I see "trademark product" I know exactly what is wrong" that's invaluable.
At least that's my experience from never buying a pre built computer all my life, and always tinkering with the hardware and software (fuck Microsoft) 25 years later it still pays off by selling my experience.... (oh the irony) as a service "rent a computer from me and I'll take care of it".
Will, I have an idea for a video. I own a 5th Wheel Travel Trailer. One reason I might build a battery is to optimize space. I'd love to see how to utilize raw cells for non rectangular footprints. L-Shape, T-Shape, U-Shape, flat and long, overhead, upside down, 3-4 batteries a few feet apart in different compartments, etc. You know, non conventional, weird stuff. 😜
I really like the BLS cells from Aliexpres, they do have an American distributor so shipping is only a few days. I'm glad a bought them and built my own 280amp Hr 48v battery and I am currently running the overkill 48v 100 amp BMS and the performance is freeking awesome. I am running with 6 340w solar panels, and a Outback radian system with a 4000w inverter with a outback 60 charge controller! I use it to run our off grid cabin.
Very thankful to have this confirmed by someone who has a clue. The server batteries seem like a super obvious choice but that is so counterintuitive I was having a hard time trusting my conclusions and thought there must be something I didn't understand.
Will, you kind of answered your own question. Those of us who are not hobbiests or extreme DIYers want a battery we can use to do something else. Even Walmart is now selling Renogy batteries (yes, I know, not the best) fairly inexpensively. For some of my needs, I'd need to build a massive Lithium battery to get the 300A discharge I need for winching (10-15 minutes). I can get a single FLA 100AH to do that for $100.
People are not buying through Chinese suppliers because of getting ripped off .. I was, I ordered 16 new grade A 320ah cells, and received I am assuming 8 grade b with data all over the sun and another 8 that were obviously repackaged used and damaged cellls which I cannot use all of then because of damaged threads. This was one of the suppliers recommended on your forum. Aliexpress backed me up with the fact that the cells that were delivered were not what I ordered, and would refund my money if I returned the product, but I would need to pay for shipping which because of being lifepo4 cells the shipping was as much as the original cost of the batteries. That was as much support from aliexpress I received…
I construct the old Edison cell from scratch with modern materials. I have never been disappointed by this cell's cost - about $30 each at 1.5 V each. They are very simple and inexpensive to build and maintain. I used the design from the Hal Lindsay reprint of Edison's battery book, use a solar panel I built to charge these batteries. I have one original Edison cell that is untouched from the time of manufacture - over 100 years old and it still works at the original specifications. You can keep your extremely expensive LiPo cells!
Could you one day make a video of your battery? Edison are the best imo
1.5 volts and how many Ah? and the weight,how much?
Edison cell
Sooooo Grateful for your videos. What a champ! Be safe. Happy trails 🐾🎶
I purchase 4 eve cells and I'm not particularly blown away with them... They cannot handle cold at all. Being in rural Canada, this is a must.
Put them in your living space. Most people don't like freezing temperatures in their house ;-). Lithium cells don't outgas like lead-acid batteries do, and LiFePo4 is considerably safer than Li-Ion.
@@sidlori1592 I guess i should have specified its for my tiny cabin in the woods off grid. I go on weekends etc
Space constraints would be a good reason why people would use the DIY route instead of the server rack route, especially for the RV community. With the cost of battleborne batteries, its cost prohibitive to buy them in large enough capacity for most people but these still provide a good budget option for someone who is willing to buy and build these into the spaces required for an RV/van build.
Note that these bare cells have a fire risk and a short circuit risk. The metal server rack cabinet is mitigating both to an extent. (the server rack box prevents sharp metal objects from getting into the wiring and causing a short and will to an extent contain the fire). This is bad news in a confined space like an RV. Better to devise a place to mount a single server rack battery.
@@GeraldMMonroe There is nothing preventing a custom fit RV install from building an enclosure that would limit risks of terminals arcing out or cells being punctured in the same or similar fashions as the server rack type batteries.
When working within an existing compartment being able to customize the layout of components is a big plus for the going the full DIY route especially when you can get more capacity into a smaller space over the off the shelf RV LiFePO4 batteries (chins and such).
Exactly!
@@alexnone5720 of course but it's a lot of work and many RV setups just box it in wood
Chins/amperetime/lossigy 12v200ah are down to around 650$ now. Other sizes are avail.
They're already built with bms and safely enclosed, two to four of them and done no need to muck around with these individual cells. Those have warranty when you buy through like amazon, aliexpress cells not so much.
Will, I love your videos. I think you hit the nail on the head, your timing couldn't be better. I think you're also hit the nail on the head this time. Many people are getting a little weary of trying to make their own from scratch systems. The initial throng of people that were into diy, have made them and now it's the mom-and-pop six-pack people wanting to save some money and have protection against weather problems. So it's better to buy the rack ready-made packs and avoid all the extra work. The few extra dollars the rr's cost now isn't a big difference, and the convenience makes it worthwhile... We Love you videos keep up the good work please and by all means I'll keep watching him
did he nit the hail on the nead?
I'm a beginner, and am interested in learning how to build and maintain my own system. The server racks sound great, but i want a system that is as simple as possible - something I can troubleshoot and repair myself. I don't want all the connectivity features offered in server racks. Fancy displays communicating with an app, etc, etc, are all points of failure that i won't be able to easily diagnose. For me, simplicity = value. Thanks for your channel. I've learned / am learning a lot!
I wouldn't mind seeing a video of your build ideas for containing a large pack made with these cells that looks good, is safe from touching dangers and can compete with server racks on space efficiency. I have seen some in totes and others with wood and allthread doing a bit of compression. All are effective, but just not nice to look at nor store efficiently. Server rack batteries suck that you kinda should buy a server rack for them. A good middle ground would be really interesting.
You should check out Andy's off-grid garage channel and his battery 2.0 build.
I really, really love electrical DIY projects. I love the idea of putting my own battery together from scratch. But, if you plan on adding actual value to your house, you need to design a system that a novice buyer can take ownership of, and have some company come over and maintain for them. No outside vendor is going to support my frankenbattery.
Very valid point!!! A lot of people don't think that way "No outside vendor is going to support my frankenbattery". If I walked into a house that I was thinking of buying, and they said "hey, this is set up with an off grid solar system", the first questions I would have is "What is it? Brand? Who installed it. INSPECTIONS!!!!! Maintenance? etc". After seeing how many wires most people "think" can safely fit into a junction box, I have VERY serious doubts on others' ability to wire up a battery bank correctly. If they are literally in an "off grid" cabin with no electricity otherwise, then fine...roll the dice, otherwise, it's worth almost nothing to the new homeowner..
Stop thinking of your homes as an asset to buy or sell and simply pass them down to your children.
I've been working on my SLA DIY battery setup and wanted to migrate to lithium but I waited to see the price go down. I really am grateful to you for learning more about it. I heard LifePo4s have issues compared to Li-Ion or even the new salt ones.
LiFePo4's are safer than Li-ion.
size-for-size, a Li-ion will have more energy storage, but can also explode or catch fire. LiFePO4's won't catch on fire
2 months ago I raced an EVSR (electric vehicle sports racer) in the NASA 25 Hours of Thunderhill, and I built 10 battery packs for the car for that race (each pack is built with 50 CALB 180s. One of the packs was a backup spare, just in case I needed it, and for reasons I won’t go into now, I’ve disassembled that pack and I’m going to repurpose some of the cells to build a 48v pack for my RV, and add solar to the RV at the same time. I just discovered this channel, looks like there will be some interesting and useful videos for me to watch as I prepare my build.
Buysolarvektrc rv
Actually I pretty much agree with everything you say. I'm one of those that "plays" with the cells and packs, but mainly for curiosity and education.
Please slow down and take a breath occasionally. Older people are still interested but it is difficulty keeping up with you. You are a wonderful young man and very bright but my engineering degree was awarded in 1961.
@@billphillips9181 You might be able to change the playback speed on the video, depending on how you view it.
Although I totally trust the server rack batteries, having watched enough of your videos tearing open packs makes me feel more comfortable building the pack myself. That way the cable supplier is accountable for "real" cables (Accurately labeled), battery distributor accountable for the cells, etc. I might be overly paranoid, but counterfeit/knockoff chips end up in products all the time, would hate for that one time to be in a sealed battery case I bought for convenience. (Again, not saying any of the server rack batteries discussed here are dangerous)
I ordered a small set Just to experiment with and in only a week there already here. I will go back in you video history & check a few things.
Really enjoying all the clear information you provide, I’m learning so much so fast...... I really need to learn about AGS (Automatic Generator Starter).
I’m building two large Overlanding Rigs, with massive roof mounted 250 watt solar panels, in a three section folding design.
I’m planning on going with the 6,000 watt inverter and the phosphate lithium batteries you suggested.
I’m having difficulty finding a 6,000 or 8,000 watt generator with electric start for a reasonable price, but have learned you can “parallel” two 3,000 watt generators together.
That is good, because the 3,000 watt generators are quieter, and less expensive.
I see the inverter you suggested has an automatic generator start “port”.....that’s important to me, now I just need to find which AGS is the best for a set up like yours.
Thanks for all the good advice
I have lifepo4 cells in my drill battery pack from Dewalt that I bought in 2006. They still work. One day I'll do a capacity test to see what's left in them....
A few weeks later and I did the capacity check and the packs have about 60-65 watt hours capacity left in them. They began with 75 watt hours 16 years ago. Not bad for their age and their early abuse being used as e-bike batteries.
I use them on my maglite flashlights. I like them.
Excuse me? Lifepo4 cells in a Dewalt battery from 2006? I'm highly doubting that's true...
@@randybobandy9828 There is this thing called the internet. It has lots of information on it. If you don't know something you can use it to find out about things you don't know. Perhaps you should try that before posting your doubts. Look up DeWalt and A123.
Thats great 👍
@@randybobandy9828 some might as well market them as lithium battery as people won't buy the new thing they only buy batteries that works. new is scary in 2006
I was planning to build my own out of raw cells, but since the server racks are getting cheap, I think I'll either use one directly or break it apart to fit into the space I want. It wouldn't surprise me if the racks are cheaper than the raw batteries after including the cost of everything else the rack comes with.
Really like your channel, a lot of useful information! The cost of the batteries combined with all the other costs to build even a small battery pack with an inverter isn’t alot cheaper than buying a pre made unit like the eco flow or yeti. Especially if you gave tools to buy means you’re actually paying more and with the associated costs it’s not profitable enough to build and sell these
I got some cheap imported Christmas lights with LiFe batteries in it when I moved into my first house. It's been in my back porch summer and winter for like... 20 years now, and still works. I've never had a battery of any sort last that long before let alone a rechargeable one.
I would much rather have the raw cells, due to the fact that I can swap them out easily if need be. Plus then I don’t have to get into a warranty fight. Modular builds are better in my opinion.
Bear in mind... its 3 months for shipping at over $120 a cell with reality having no promises of quality or anything once you have the item.
I'm sure the rack batteries are great for people with the money, but remember that not everyone who is interested in solar has plaid levels of disposable income. I'm poor, so I'm still buying raw cells
Thanks for the reminder, yes I'm getting around to it & now another 2 old batteries died I'll build a few now.
As a ITguy, I agree with you, server batteries are the preferred choice, good to know
A factor for me was the amp hours, the prebuilts are stuck on the 280 AH cells. I mean I get it, they are tried and tested, but I have grade A 304 AH cells from a Chinese supplier and they are great, plus the price difference makes sense.
Yep same here
Who is using 280 AH cells in a server rack configuration ??
Can you share where you got these cells and for how much? All of this stuff sounds expensive and dangerous with grade B cells bulging constantly
One advantage of using raw cells is lower total weight and unit weight. The rack batteries include the weight of the steel case and come as one unit ~100 pounds for 100Ah cells. Shipping, receiving, installing a 100 lb device is difficult. Doable in the garage of a house, but very difficult in an RV or off-grid cabin with only foot access. Using raw cells, you could get 200Ah cells that are ~8 lbs each. It would take more trips to assemble the battery, but a person can lift 8 lbs 15 times easily.
I just bought 8 raw cells! I’m sooo grateful for your videos!!
Hey Will,
totally agree, if I were to build a new system with currenty prices I would definitely go for a server-rack one. Built my system two years ago out of EVE 280 cells and totally happy with it, but the struggly I went through, just because I overtorqued and thereby ripped out one thread, was already not worth it.
One idea you could eventually do is a DIY "winter-pack", since I'm from the european alps and my batteries are located in a way where I can't guarantee to always stay > 0°C I went to build my own battery heating system as a base for the battery. Two 15 W heating pads thermalpasted to a metal plate to spread the heat (electrically insulated on the top), temperature controlled relays from aliexpress and some insulation around the batteries sides and top. Needs really little power to keep the batteries at around 4-5 °C and by only charging with solar I guess that should be enough to keep them comfortable.
Just thought it might be an idea for a DIY build since there's little heated packs out there and if you already build the heating you might just build the whole battery.
$889 for 4 of them is extremely high. You can get new grade A 280Ah EVE LF280K cells from a US warehouse for $588 including shipping. That's $0.164 per Wh - cheaper than your grade B cells from Ali... You can get the LF304 EVE cells for $158/cell including shipping - that's $0.162 per Wh. You can also pick them up at a Houston, Texas warehouse if you prefer. Maybe that's why those suppliers see a drop in sales, since they have major competition.
Looks like your comment finally posted! I think it just got lost in all the other comments.
These deals are posted on the forum if anyone wants to check them out. That is dirt cheap!
Yeah, they could absolutely be causing a drop for everyone else with prices like that. I need to look up the prices of these distributors that I keep hearing about. That is really good.
@@WillProwse I tried to post it under the main video and it worked. Posting this comment under your pinned comment didn't...
@@upnorthandpersonal Gosh youtube is driving me nuts. Just responded to your email. RUclips needs to stop censoring random comments.
can you post a link?
Hi Will, been watching you for a long time, since the old Toyota days lol. I would love to see you do some electric motorcycle conversions using these type of cells on existing ICE bikes. Something that could be used for daily transportation and/or on a receiver hitch rack for an RV. Parameters would be being able to do at least 65-70 mph and have a 100 mile range. Thanks for the great videos and all the information you provide.
Video suggestion. Instead of making a video showing what the cheapest batteries are you do one showing people how to look for the cheapest batteries. That way it's forever useful.
You're pretty spot on. In short, unless a person is a hobbyist or DIYer in other areas, they want plug-and-play capability. Convenience has a price. Pre-built and server rack batteries give you that convenience along with being plug and play. Mostly. At least with the battery packs, they take the guesswork out of it. You only need to worry about getting a good charging setup and quality inverters. Which if you're wanting to get something up and running quickly, that's the way to go. Such as a battery backup for a sump, or running a sump purely on battery.
I'm taking both routes. I have 4x320Ah cells I ordered last year that I still haven't done anything with that I'll use to make a 12V pack. Combine that with a good inverter and it'll make a good travel power source or battery backup for something in the house. And I'm considering ordering more cells as well so I can have additional backup battery power for anything in the house in case I need to cut breakers to work on anything. (Such as when I have a transfer switch installed.)
But for a battery backup for the house or at least the HVAC system? I'm leaning toward server rack batteries.
You're on the mark with your thoughts. The savings of a DIY build versus a turnkey battery with warranty have declined to the point of not being worthwhile to go the DIY route. I still constantly compare the costs for my needs, but at this time, I'm sticking with the ready to use products.
6:09
I feel like you have your answer right there. I worked in car audio for years building competition vehicles with dozens of batteries, football fields of wire length, etc. So to me, I don't see any issues at all as long as you work smart and safely... But I can absolutely see why people would lean towards just buying a finished product and not taking risks in exchange for relatively minimal savings.
Plus, a lot of RUclipsrs are talking waaaay over the head of the average person with a budding interest and no experience. Yes, you guys are smart, but anyone looking to learn with limited time on their hands is going to be overwhelmed.
I know what you mean. I used to have a Honda crx with 10,000 watts at 1 ohm that we ran at 1/4 ohm.
Thanks, I don't have my own home yet but when I do I will be prepared.
As someone's from the DIYEV community I would really like to know the short term (30 second and 3 minute) discharge C ratings for these aluminum case batteries. I did my first build with 144 volts of lead 12 years ago and would like to revive the project with lithium.
The cost difference just isn’t as big as it used to be, so it makes more sense to buy something with a warranty
If they dropped the price on raw cells people including myself would start buying again.
Sir? You are a very smooth talker indeed :) Best regards!
Awesome channel. Awesome guy, with such a uniquely powerful descriptive talent.
TLDW: No one buys them, because they are overpriced.
thank you
I agree the server rack battery makes more sense than raw cells. Though I wonder, with all of these batteries and cells, how do you know what grade of cell you are actually getting?
One year later and the points brought up in this video are even more true. I have procrastinated long enough before buying my raw cells that now I can't justify not getting the plug and play warrantied option of a server rack battery. Now the only thing stopping me is that the other equipment I want for my system only comes in 12v versions. Looking ay you "Blue Box" people. Make that flagship hybrid 50A inverter in a 48 volt option and they would fly off the shelves. Conversely, if the "power wall" type inverters could offer some of the hybrid options available in the blue box, I would consider changing my shopping list.
i consider EVE RAW cell than a server rack because raw cell save me alot if money. i DIY from raw cell 51.2v 560ah included 2 unit 150a daly bms only cost me about $3000+ (price Aug 2020). i've been running it 24/7 almost 18 months and nothing problem.. until today only circle 330circle life (17month).. hopefully my battery can run last longer.. i learnt alot from your videos, your channel taught me and save my money alot... for me now, Raw cell i can handle it safe.
Will, I would buy raw cells if I could get a nice case for them at a good price. Even ABS cases for 4x280Ah batteries are so expensive!. If I could get a nice server rack case for 8x280Ah batteries (24V) I would totally buy more raw cells.
Yeah that is a good point! Those are super expensive. I did not think about that Alex, thanks
@@WillProwse Do you know of any manufactures that are planning 24v 280/300Ah server rack batteries? I calculated that they will fit in the existing server rack battery cases that Signature Solar sell. From my calculations they would be 10kg heavier (~122lb total, compared to 100lb) but would provide 7.2kw and be about $200 more expensive for the batteries.
@yo yo calm down little buddy. I made mine from wood, looks like a bomb with all the balance leads 💣. This video is discussing decreasing sales, perhaps we have reached everyone willing to build their own case.
Although a bit bulky, milk crates make good cases. I've built two 280ah batts in milk crates. Planning to build a 560 battery in a double milk crate. Then, when I have two matching milk crates, I plan to fit them with Anderson connectors that will automatically fit together when the crates are lined up. My system needs to be movable by one person, so building each portion in a double crate will be very convenient.
Now that its all in format and already assembled, either the price goes down or they sit on the shelf. The market should and most likely will, self-adjust to this.
The inability to easily dismantle and repair the server rack batteries, makes them FAR LESS desirable for me personally.
Its just more "use it and dispose of it" type gear. Destined to never be properly recycled, and for the lithium within to likely end up in my tap water after slowly leaching into the ground at the local landfill.
The complete cycle life of what I am buying, has started to factor into my purchasing choices over the past 5-ish years. Lithium is 100x more finite than gas/oil was. It needs to be treated more like the precious commodity that it is. As many manufacturers fail to consider.
If it has lithium in it, and is difficult to recycle, I am way less likely to buy it or even consider it.
If its not repair and service friendly, or uses proprietary electronics for BMS / Charge / Balance, its relatively useless if anything goes wrong.
Everyone I have seen with a "Solar Generator" has it apart in the garage because it failed after 1-3 years, and parts are basically impossible to get.
Easier, isn't always "Better"
Does it make it more available to a wider audience... Absolutely. Should anyone without a proper education in Lithium and Battery maintenance be owning these things? Flat out NO.
Far too dangerous. Far too much energy potential. And the risk of serious injury, fire, or death is just too high to sell this to anyone disinterested in understanding it and properly maintaining it.
Its an explosive fireball waiting to happen, and set and setting matter a LOT.
Excellent video, good topic, great points. That's my 2 cents :-)
Very good points! I think quite a few people agree with your sentiment on solar generators, too. I agree.
@@WillProwse I'm not sure if you still do but please stop pushing solar generators.
They are a good idea BUY so over priced and like what was said above so many not sitting around doing nothing after a few years.
username checks out
Another good video,
Although I think your prices for raw sells was a bit high but you did mention buying from American distribution (so add probably at least 100% mark up)
That right there makes a big difference to the DIY people.
I like the bit in this video where you talk about your affiliates not having the sells numbers like they used to, perhaps they start dropping the price on those Eve 304Ah cells 😁
@@pteepan2708 pushing them? I have bashed pretty much every solar generator on the market, and have had problems with all of them except the ac300. Remember the titan with an improper resistor value in the temperature sending circuit of the inverter? I test everything on the market and let me viewers decide what they should buy. I have recommendations on my site for solar products that have worked great for me and others.
I took your advice Will and bought four 280 ah cells from Docan's US stock. It didn't take long to get here. I also have an Overkill BMS on the way. I got so called B grade cells. I've not done a capacity test on them yet. Physically they look good. I have not idea why they are called B grade. I've charged them up to 3.33 per cell. First I made a 12 volt pack and charged it to 14.6. As soon as the voltage hit 14.6 I turned the charger off. The resting voltage is 3.33. I bought a Dr Meter power supply so I can top balance. Cheers !
I too have watched your eve cell videos and all others...you have enciuraged me to continue with my own diy hybrid, grid interactive system using an all in one inverter not requiring a transformer ...i am a elect engr of 40 years familiar with industial battery demand...$ and tech saveyness are main factors... from college days a 48v system is optimun to meet typucal home energy storage...i went with a 48v server battery with 10 yr warranty ...dont want to have to continually be perforfirming bat maintenance..one thing lacking even on 48v server bats is how to integrate communication to a different inverter than for example the growatt...the comm interface needs to be configurable with any inverter with rs485...canbus such as to mpp solar all in one...i am not sold on growatt...by the way you have done an amazing job making discovery in solar cells diy and bat testing and inverter options..i will grow my 48v server bat system to about 60 tp 70 kwhr as my daily usage averages 35 to 50 kwhr in summer months for my 1500 sq ft home
Would love to see the largest 48v eve 280ah raw cell battery scaled up 4 deep for a whole house off grid application.. the kw total.. load test duration n ev charging potential.
It's probably different prices depending on where you are but in Western Australia it's actually cheaper to buy a ready made battery. Plus I can buy the ready made locally
im also in wa and the best deal ive found so far are the same cells as these but from a different seller. Grade A eve 280ah x16 cells and tax and shipping + bms for roughly $4500 aud for a 13.44kwh system. what pre made batteries in wa can you get for the same capacity and cheaper as that sounds awesome
Cause you guy near china
Interesting, what's the popular method of buying in Aus At the moment?
@@hivengliving Just talk to a supplier like yhipower (or whoever is closest to you) and setup a trade account.
Did you go on a rampage in a tank in 1993?
@@johnle231 Haha
You have come such a long way. - Blessings
Just watched another video and it was mentioned that reduction in the float voltage was considered because if it is set to an upper limit, many inverters will trip on over voltage. So the float time is cut back and slightly lowered to bring the cell up around 9% instead of to or close to 100%.
I think the main reason people hate to build own batteries is the missing battery cases. Yes you can use 4 rod and 2 plate to make compression, but it is not pretty. But if you buy a server rack case with the cells then you only assemble it like an Ikea furniture. Much more easy. Seplos sells I think batteries like this. Also Amy started to sell battery cases to EVE-CATL cells to. Maybe this is the way and this should be shown to the community.
Mine bundled with three hot-melt lashes and two epoxy boards on the sides.
I have the raw eve cells for my RV, and I think it definitely has its place there for a few reasons.
1. I didn’t see a 12v model of the server rack options.
2. I’m not opposed to 24v but Victron doesn’t, yet, make a multiplus II 24v model for the U.S. market.
I do think the server rack options are great though. If I were to start now I would 100% consider it if there were a 12v model.
Maybe one of the companies will sell me just the server rack enclosure and I can use my own eve cells :) sure no warranty but I would consider it for a solid case!
you can find 12v lifepo4 batteries that are shaped like car lead acid battery
@@sandert8901 yeah I’ve seen those. I actually have some from AntiGravity for some toys (bikes, car, etc) so not solar related. I still prefer my raw 280ah cells especially for the capacity.
I was more nervous about buying cells due to not knowing if I'll get them after paying a lot of money out. This is in the UK where buying single cells are hard to find at a reasonable price. So I went for pre built for not much more than separate parts
Video ideas.
(1) Test cheap "BMS" sold at Aliexpress or similar stores.
(2) Find the best "budget" "BMS" sold at Aliexpress or similar stores
(3) Test new Generation of grid tie inverters that can charge batteries in its system and can keep powering from its stores energy during the nigjt.
All good points . Server rack seems like a no brainer.
Cost? No local availability? High shipping costs (potentially the same more than the unit costs)? What they have now works just fine? Don't have solar so don't need it? That's five legitimate reasons people aren't buying them for you.
I'd like to see a video where you build a portable watering system for livestock or fire supression out of either the rack system or the individual cells. Or a video on livestock electric fencing being charged through a battery system that is powered by renewable. Thanks for the cool vids!
I was really hoping to see a direct cost comparison. Adding in the cost of BMS, wiring, breaker etc when comparing to the server batteries, has to break even with server racks. Maybe not compared to some people's "deals", but there is certainly a very tight cost margin. While the server rack system is as "bolt-on" as you can get, there is always the intangible benefits to building something completely custom for your needs. I've done a DIY cell 100AH battery just because I wanted to make one for camping needs, but I'd be hard pressed to try and DIY a large 24 or 48v system. Keep up the great content!!
Yeah I should probably do that. There are some really cheap distributors out there.
I just ordered from a high rated Aliexpress store (on the site since 2015.) 320 Ah cells, that they claim are brand new grade A. Price worked out 12 cents per watt hour. If you are building a big system, that saves a lot. I will have 32 cells, arranged as a 48 volt 640 Ah battery. Price for the raw cells will be a bit under $4,000 for ~ 32 kWh of storage. It would cost about $8700 for 6 of 5.1 kWh server rack batteries. I willing to do a lot of labor and and buy a good BMS and a high power DC breaker for the $4,700 difference. I don't need the communications features, and this way 1 BMS and 1 breaker is all I need. Each server rack battery would duplicate those. If I was building a smaller system, where one of the server racks was all I needed, I'd probably go that route.
Wow that is cheap!!!
@@WillProwse They will be very cheap if the cells arrive in April as promised, and are in good shape, and are truly new. If not, well they will still be cheap, even if they are less than perfect.
@@jimmurphy5355 would you mind sharing your source? I'm looking to do something similar. TY!
I still have raw cells sitting on my bench, top balanced and waiting to be assembled into a battery. This is a hobby, I have very limited time to devote to it. Server rack batteries weren't available when I started my journey, but if I had gone that route and put the time I spent top balancing and such into the rest of my system, my system would have been functional for months now. If I started again this moment, not a chance I'd do raw cells. Not a chance.
This video was super informative and helpful. Thank you.
Thank you for your continued sharing of your knowledge
Have you ever thought about building a UPS (basically using batteries, an inverter, and a charge controller run off of the house current)? Buying a commercial one that would survive a few hour outage and run a computer or fridge costs HUGE amounts of money. They're ripping people off!
I have a 100Ah LiFePO4 battery that is about 10 years old now. It is charged with a solar charger designed for a lead acid battery, bringing its top charge to about 90%. It will run my desktop for 10 to 25 hours (depending on how much gaming I am doing). Because my current location is not conductive to solar (I get zero direct sun), I've been using a radio power supply plugged in where the solar panels would connect. The batteries were scavenged as a set of six matched cells. I use 4 in series and have two cells sitting on my shelf. The solar charger and radio supply combined cost me about $150. I spent another $100 on a 100 amp protection circuit. So in total it cost me about as much as a decent UPS and lasts 10 times as long.
@@kittenisageek I love you. I wish I knew how to do that on my own. Want to share any more info on brands and models?
@@PatrickPoet I believe the LiFePO4 cells are Tenergy prismatic 3.2v 100Ah cells. I connected them in a 4s configuration with heavy copper ingots bolted to the posts. The radio power supply is pretty standard for the industry. Mine specifically is a PowerWerx sps-30dm. The charge controller is pretty standard as well, but was designed for a lead-acid battery, so the voltage is limited to 13.5v. It limits the charge rate to 10a. When the DC voltage wanes, it switches to the battery. The protection circuit for the battery prevents over-discharge and limits current output to 100a. It is also supposed to balance, but the LA charger never brings the voltage high enough for that to happen.
Early on, I had the output plugged into a UPS. However, boosting the voltage to mains level only for the computer's power supply to drop it back down to 12v DC was wasting a lot of power. SO I swapped my desktop power supply for a DC one from a company that no longer exists. You can find marine ATX supplies fairly cheap if you watch for them. I got mine for $50, but most of the ones coming up in my search are around $300.
@@kittenisageek thanks!
Buy ups 50 too 150
I think a lot of the reason that cells went up is due to shipping cost crazyness that happened last year, I got some 230 Amp hour cells for 130$ from a local supplyer and it was cheaper then if I ordered them myself because he ordered in bulk, but they went up in price not down I think mostly do to freight rates and short term demand peak. I also think people like handling movable batteries, a 16 cell 250 pound monster is a lot more menicing then a server rack battery
Let’s go Brandon!
@@flyingwyoming5184 I see this written, What does it mean.?
@@parttime9070 A saying in reference to the current administration regarding their handling of the country or lack there of. It started from a video at a car race where the interviewer thought the crowd was saying "let's go Brandon" but they were actually saying "Fxxx Joe Biden". I said it because these cells have been hard to get, do to freighters being stuck waiting to unload the cargo.....ie lack of supply causes $$$$.
I'm buying them😃 used your recommendation. Thanks
I’m always impressed by the depth of knowledge on this channel & in the comments.
I’ve been out of the loop, need a reboot as I’m getting closer to dropping a few thousand to build an off grid system.
Will - Here’s a video idea: Server rack for marine environment. A pile of sailboats use solar.
I second that request! I am interested too.. going to be designing a solar/battery setup for my little sailboat.
you hit the nail straight on the head. I was going to build my own for the last year + but have seen the prices of the factory completed products at close to the same or lower. I am a DIY type on a lot of items; but not a lot of incentive anymore.
You can DIY 50% cheaper than a rack mounted system, everything included.
dude, the cells I was going to buy from Amy (through Will's forum) are 304AH Grade A EVE cells. 16 cells + shipping came out to $2,250 all in. Add a BMS for $90 and it's $2,340.
That's a 14.5kWh, 48v system for $2,340... You waste alot of your free time, so what's an hour or two adding the BMS leads and building a quick wooden box to house the batteries? lol.
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For the eve cell costs you should get the bms for either 4s, 8s or 16s free..the server rack price includes all hardware assembly bms balancing...ready to go!