For longer discussion of every point in this video, check out my charging guidelines here: ruclips.net/video/K9Tfivf5bAI/видео.html For references to studies for me to draw this conclusion, go here: diysolarforum.com/threads/cycling-degradation-vs-calendar-aging-w-lifepo4-batteries-used-for-solar-application.94487/ Does diy solar confuse you? Check out my website! www.mobile-solarpower.com 0:00 Intro and BMS Basics 1:31 #1 Cause 3:34 #2 Cause 6:44 #3 Cause 7:47 #1 Hardware Failure 8:58 Basic Guidelines to Follow
@@Justnn Usually "0%" is not true zero. If you do not let your battery sit at 0%, you will be fine. If you discharge to "0%" the BMS is stopping the battery within a safe zone of discharge, but if you let it sit like that, it will continue to discharge and reach true zero, which is bad.
@@user82938Cool. Newbie here. So, most don’t tell you the problem of leaving it at 0 is because of the continued self-discharge. If I’m charging RV battery every day on solar and happen to deplete it overnight, it’s not going to damage it if the charging starts up again the next day. That’s my typical scenario and was concerned I’d lose an expensive battery.
If you check the datasheets of EVE's prismatic LiFePO4 batteries, you'll see that the manufacturer itself says the batteries will last up to 3 times as many cycles if you stay in the 50%-80% range, vs charging/discharging from 0% to 100% and back again.
@@luis0000luis I've seen that as well. Yet I've also seen articles that claims you shouldn't charge to 100% because that last 1% harms the battery's. Yet the GOAT says the top 1% balances the cells in the string...? There's so much conflicting information It's hard to gauge what's right. I charge to 100% every day. then down to 40%.
@@luis0000luis Mine is Renogy and they don’t seem to get specific about cycles, but they also say better to keep within 20 and 80 for longevity. Interesting though, both their chargers, solar and inverter, are default set to charge to 100%. I don’t think I have a choice anyway, I need 60% or more most days in winter. 🤷♂️
I have 4x 5.1kw LFP batteries. I have been charging them with solar to 100% every day and discharging down to normally between 30-50% overnight. The BMS tells me that the SOH (state of health) is 99% after a full years use. Couldn't be happier.
Sounds about right. Your Depth of Discharge (DoD) is about 60% so that means the battery should be able to get to 10k cycles before 20% degradation. You did 365 cycles which is 365/10000 = 0.037. So you have done 3.7% of the 20% degradation, which means 3.7%*0.2 = 0.7% in absolute battery terms.
@@C4rb0neum Thanks for the calculations. Very helpful and interesting. Now I have a reference point, I plan to keep an eye out for when the SOH drops to 98% and see how close it is to your figures and then I'll be able to get a more accurate picture of the lifespan of the batteries.
@@Dr_Wrong Join the discussion: diysolarforum.com/threads/will-prowse-says-charging-0-100-daily-is-a-non-issue-for-lifepo4-battery-longevity-thoughts.94004/page-12#post-1262448
Thanks Will for the great info. I currently own an EV, 3 ebikes, 2 electric scooters and 3 litime batterys for my boat. A person could drive themselves crazy trying to over manage these batteries. I store my stuff inside during the winter off season at around 60% and check on them monthly for self discharge and don't really obsess over it. I like your approach and will start to charge to full more often as well. Great video as usual I really appreciate your content!
I am off-grid and use four Enjoybot 12v Lifepo4 batteries setup in series 24v (2 bats 24v ) and paralleled hooked up to a 5000 watt inverter to run my 1hp water pressure tank. The charge controller is a Renogy 40 amp . I set up the charge controller in manual mode with the charge set at 13.7 volts , if I set it any higher the inverter trips because the voltage is too high. 13.7 x2= 27.4v. It's a 24v inverter. The Enjoybot batteries have been doing well now for two years. Thanks for all of your helpful videos!!
I absolutely am thankful for all of your videos! You are a treasure to the RUclips world. I dont comment, however - I do click the "Like Button" , and I do watch all of your videos. Thank You for your time and efforts !
Waiting for you to get hands on an EG4 12000xp, that will be the final word I'll be waiting to go for it. If I believe someone in these topics is you. Forever thankful with the videos and time you spend filming them for us.
Looking at hundreds of videos on youtube, you are the only one with who I'm fully in agreement. Congratulation, your lessons are great ! Peppe from Napoli.
Good to know - I bought four LIFEPO4 Ecoworthy 12V 100Ah last month to put into my battery boxes that are paired with foldable solar panels, but have them stored in a cabinet. I'll take them out to fully charge them this weekend. Thanks Will!
Will you are not only obviously very intelligent you do an excellent job of explaining things so they are easily understood. You mention “extreme cold” in the video but I never heard a temperature mentioned that would define extreme cold in your opinion. BTW - I’m running your EG4 48V off grid setup full time off grid now for going on 2 years. Love it!
Extreme cold in relation to LiFePO4 batteries is below 32F or 0C for longer than an hour or two. In a working system, the output of the batteries to power appliances, etc., usually will keep the interior of the battey warm enough for this. Any lower or longer, you will want to use some form of warming the batteries.
It's not a hard line. More of a curve. As you approach 32°F, the charge rate should use fewer and fewer amps until you get to 32°F where it would be zero amps. Discharge does not follow this approach as they can be discharged at much colder temperatures without damage. (I keep my cells warmed in the 35°F to 45°F range in the winter.) Consult your LiFePO4 cell/battery manufacturer's datasheet for the actual charge/discharge ranges.
@ I’m off grid in VT Green Mountains. My house is obviously warm but the barn I built this summer only has a wood stove in the shop area. I just threw a EcoFlow Delta Pro I had in there for now. I will turn off the PV this winter and only fast charge with my generator on above freezing days. Should be fine for at least this winter. 4 years now off grid.
this william is a true inspirational story . listening to him educate him self when his health was poor and is now on top of the world. you inspire so many people to do things they had no idea they can do . by the way ev cars seen to be a bomb on the move careful people.
The few failed units I've had all were the BMS went bad. Technically blocked the batteries from getting charged. Heat storage, well that's another issue here in Texas that goes up over 100F in the summer. All very good info for viewers, so great video
Hi Will, I've watched every episode since you started in your RV, and you're very good at what you do. I'm an (Aussie) electrician of 45 years experience and 60 YO and you nail it every time. I just bought a cheap AU$30,000 MG4 EV, which has a LiFe 51Kw setup and you're right on about what to do. Not only for solar/home setups but also EV's. I know you're full time basically doing what you do but if you ventured into the "car" world of batteries it would only make your channel better. Although I don't recomment cutting open car batteries to see what's inside. But hey, you might go there one day you're that good, and now very experienced. Bravo young man I always look forward to watching your episodes, they never fail to impress me.
This and many other videos you have produced are just wonderful information pieces. Thank you so much for putting time and energy into giving people like us information about batteries and power set up. One other comment stated they needed to know more information about extreme cold weather as I do I installed two different 100 amp our batteries in my RV last summer and they worked phenomenally well. I live in the exact opposite atmosphere that you do in Leadville Colorado, which is at 10,200 feet in elevation and we have a very long cold winter . The RV is stored outside and I spent the extra time to remove the batteries prior to storage which takes a good bit of time and as a pain in the butt and of course there’s putting them back in every spring. The winter here stays below 32° for at least 4 to 5 months and many nights can get down to -20°throughout the winter. Even in November last night it was -6. Can I leave these batteries in the RV over the winter and not have severe damage or is it way way better to take them out like I did?
Thank you so much Will for sharing your expertise and know how. I pretty much learned how to hook up a solar system thanks to you! I bought your book and it is amazing how much knowledgeable info is in there. Thanks again buddy, I truly appreciate what you do. God bless my friend 🙏
This was great, I've been trying to decide on charge rates and battery location for upgrading our travel trailer from AGM to LiFePO4 and these tips really helped me understand how to think about these problems. Unfortunately in a travel trailer either inside or outside in New Mexico the batteries are going to roast and freeze. :)
Northern New Mexico resident here. I got tired of babysitting and frequently replacing lead acid batteries for my RVs over the years and decided to upgrade our RV with LiFePO. I bought a single Battle Born 100Ah battery and I couldn't be happier. It's been nearly 5 years and it still works like it was brand new. It's located inside the RV under the bed, so it gets insulated from extreme cold and heat year round.
Thank you for the reminder!!! I have a very sweet 48 volt battery made from part of a chevy volt pack intended for an amphbious boat project that has been on hold for several years. It went into storage at near full charge and I did top it up once but then became busy with life and neglected it until I saw your video and went yikes! Fortunately it had only dropped to 47 volts and it only took three hours at 3 amps to return to its max 50 volts level. Whew....I could have been your poster boy on what not to do!! Love your straight forward videos, your obvious passion for the subject and clear instruction....glad you are getting the support you need to continue and expand...you deserve it.
50 volts and 50 percent are different on a 48v battery. Check how many volts will indicate 50% of your battery. Google says 48.2v is at 50% charge. Will recommends 50% for storage, not full as you have done by charging to 50v.
My main issue is keeping them warm enough throughout the winter. I built a 2” foam enclosure inside a 4’ x 8’ crate that houses my inverter and charge controller all inside the 3cu ft foam box. I have the batteries sitting on a 12v warming pad made for Rv water tanks to help warm up the batteries when the temp drops below 32f . We regularly see temps get as low as -10F in January and February.
Your absolutely 100% right, built my solar system slowly since 2018 and know every of your video. I have one Growatt and smaller backup inverter. Using and upgrading my LiFePO4 batteries whenever I can. And yes, recently on of my BMS from my LG 15kW battery died (got them batteryhookup). May make a video for which BMS is best, in case someone is in need, like me now.
Very useful advice here about using LiFePo batteries. I also used to think the 80/20 rule applied with them after moving over from an NCM lithium set up. Great to know i can go to 100% and use the full voltage range on discharge.
Love your videos as always. Fellow engineer here, but mechanical. Your book helped me build the most kick ass solar setup and battery bank build for my camper. At a fraction of the price. One thing I'll expand on is low state of charge. I made the mistake of buying BMSs that had no Bluetooth functionality, or even a connector for the Bluetooth dongle. So even though I was charging my bank consistently after ignoring it for 3 months, I started to notice capacity issues. 2 of the BMSs never woke up. Took 2 years to figure it out. I bought 8 cells to replace the 2 sets of 4s 12v batteries. And I made a jumper pin to "jumpstart" across B- and C- on all 6 of my builds. It also allows me to check if voltage is the same before and after the BMS. Which is my poor man's way of seeing if the BMS is awake. TLDR; use Bluetooth compatible BMSs if you're gonna DIY and follow Will's advice. But jumping across the BMS works in a pinch.
The Picture of Will Prowse/Dorian Grey. You don't seem to age. Been watching your channel for a while. I'm jealous, you don't seem to age. Where do you hide your painting?
Thanks for the tips! I installed LiTime 2 x 230ah batteries a few months ago on my sailboat. Definitely a learning curve with them, but so far I’m loving them. Will be increasing my solar in the near future.
I have two 100ah Expion batteries in my RV. They charge with a Morningstar MPPT controller programmed to charge Lipo's. I have 700 watts on the roof. Now that our RV season is gone I've brought the batteries down to 59% and they've been sitting for two months, so far. I'm in the Reno area so you know it'll be getting cold. No problem with them sitting at 59% while we wait for our next trip? I check my battery monitor every couple weeks and they consistently show 59%. I have disconnected the batteries from any contact with the trailer's electrical system to avoid any phantom draws.
I learned all this 6 years ago when I bought an E-MTB with Bosch 36v 13ah batteries- never store fully charged, long term store at 40%, keep somewhere cool with stable temperature. If you do partially charge to say 80% then periodically you must take the batteries up to 100% (It takes 32 mins per 20% to charge from 0-80%, except the last 20 % at 80-100% that takes 90 mins and shows the slow balancing as each cell hits 100%)....Both my batteries have minimal degradation and I can still get the same distances for any level of assist. When I first got the bike the advice from everyone was "when you get home fully charge it"...WRONG!! Never charge a physically warm battery, likewise a charged battery needs to cool before use, and I only ever take the battery to 100% in the hour before I plan to use it so it's not sitting in a high state of charge.....
Excellent advice Will! I have a 120 amp hour LFP battery in my bank that went into service in December of 2016. I followed the rules you describe, and after 8 years in service, it tests at 112 amp hours capacity. That's less than 1% capacity fade per year.
Good point on the BMS - I bought 3 wall mount batteries a couple years back - all 3 of them had a BMS failure! The vendor replaced each of them under warranty, but it still surprised me how they all failed, almost one after another.
Not one problem with my two JBD 12v 4s 120 amp BMS. Reliable and performed very well. I wish I had gone with JBD when I created my latest battery which is 48v but I followed the crowd and went with Jikong (JK).
My model 3 rwd has the white phosphorus battery. I manually set the home charge limit to 75% to avoid unnecessary top balancing, but I do charge it to 100% on Sundays, the lord’s day, to keep the BMS happy.
Exactly what I needed to learn. I have a newer Chins 51.2 100AH Golf Cart battery. Love it! Was scared to discharge completely. Not anymore! 30 mile trip SOON! 🙌
Will, thanks for this very important video. Now that I watched it, I realized that I could be screwed. I bought 6 100-amp hour 48-volt LIPO batteries from Signature Solar back in 2019 to run my off-grid house, then I thought, 6 more would be great to have as a backup, so I bought them about 6 months later. I opened up and charged 3 of the 6 extra batteries but left the others in their original boxes. I really need to check on all the extra batteries as it's been a few years and they've been sitting in my garage up in UT where it gets near or below freezing. I pray I haven't wasted $$$$ due to my ignorance. I don't live in UT but only go up to visit and work on projects and living in Henderson NV I don't really think about things like you mentioned in this video. Wow, this video was an eye opener.
I have had my LFP for 18 months. I have been monitoring the percent charge. I have not been able to see any discharge so I believe that it is small: as mentioned in the video.
@@edwardlulofs444 the percent charge probably won't have any way of reflecting this natural loss and BMS parasitic loss. I'd charge it back up and observe how much charge it absorbed to get an idea of how much it had lost.
It depends. My lithium batteries for my Worx tools, over winter, show no change from November to April (I take them out of the tools). Both UPS (UPSes?), if I unplugged them, would show around 1% per month.
It depends on how wasteful the BMS is. As an example, I have a USB battery bank that I've had for over 10 years. It's fairly sizable for a battery bank, and you can leave that puppy in a drawer for a year or more and it will still happily fully charge your phone. It has the usual soft-on button and will automatically start delivering power when you plug something in to the USB port, so it absolutely has a microprocessor-controlled power management controller inside that is always powered up. It just has a (relative to the capacity of the battery) *very* low parasitic load. When you compare something like that to a car-battery sized LiFePo4 cell, there's absolutely zero logical reason that the cell protection's load should be anything at all measurable. "3% a month" quoted in the video is a criminal level of wastefulness, IMO. Good lord. At that point, you're paying for all the expense of Lithium, and getting all the advantages of Lead-Acid. >
Thank you for the video, it's very informative. I do have a few questions: 1) Is it better if the BMS begins balancing at 90% instead of 100%? Do they make BMSs like that? 2) How do people add "active balancing circuits" without opening the battery case?
"People seem to think they know more than the engineers who designed these things." Unfortunately very true. Also, might I add that by the time these batteries hit their 10 year mark, they will still hold most of their capacity and by that time, new tech or cheaper cells hit the market and you STILL have your Lifepo4 batts.
Not so much the new cells but that the same battery size of that chemistry cost will be like a quarter of the current 50 odd USD per kWh coming out of CATL /BYD now.
Hey Will. Love your videos. I'm an old lady with arthritis and I have a hard time disconnecting solar wires. I was thinking about altering the wires and putting one of the yellow connectors XT60 plugs on the wires instead of the connectors, but I'm not educated enough to know if that will work or not. It would be great to see a short video with solutions for those who don't have a lot of strength and dexterity. :)
Will, Thanks for all you do on your channel , following since later part of 2022. Because of your expertise I have built a complete solar system for off grid operations. Cheers
Same here. When I first started posting on Will's forum I was absolutely beyond clueless. I was uploading my "plans" for this huge 12V system for our off grid cabin that look nothing like what we have today thanks to the education I got there from the forum members. It took two years on his forum (I'm slow) to finally get comfortable, but what we came away with is a super great 48V system that powers our off grid cabin and heats it with an electric heat pump. In Alaska! With our solar arrays located 600 feet away from our cabin. And we installed all the DC stuff ourselves all from research on his forum. DIYSolarForum is a must for anybody wanting to learn about off grid solar.
I use my ecoflow delta 2 almost daily. Did set the charge and discharge points at 90% then 10%. Also lowered charging speed to 400 watts. Didn't realize the balancer won't kick on, looks like i need to change my settings
Great information, Will. I have the EG4 LL-S battery. Living on the southern border of Arizona.... and being over paneled my battery rarely drops below 60% SS tech advises to discharge down to 20% twice a year.... I do it once a month, but after listening to you here, I will change my low setting to 10%. thx again
Glad to hear your opinion on charging. I have 3 100 ah batteries. Mostly use them for a trolling motor battery, but like leaving them at 100% charge in case i need them for backup power at the house. I was worried about keeping them at 100 %.
"but like leaving them at 100% charge in case i need them for backup power at the house." You want to float them in this case at a voltage that will not send any current into the battery once it's been fully charged. You can float them at 13.4 (3.35v/cell). This would be safe for a UPS mode setup.
Thanks for the heads up Will... I have 6 batteries which were put up in faraday cages over a year ago that definitely need to be charged up. Thanks for to motivation .....charging as we speak
Been watching you for years always great content really appreciate all your information. They really loving your new videos. You take care and God bless.
For those of us that have our ecoflow battery generators and are preppers that mostly keep these stored. Every 3 months do we charge it all the way to 100% for the battery balancers? And then discharge it down to 50% for storage? Or just charge it up to 100% and leave it every 3 months? I think you mentioned that the proper percent to store it at is 50%
I am not sure, but I believe the 50% is the minimum to charge it to...or leave it at. The 100% is for making sure the balancing is done. SHIPPERS are not allowed by law to ship them at over 50%.
I have been looking at lithium batteries for some time. Your information is always great. I need 3 X 400 amp batteries at 12 volt for a RV. The problems with fier is what stops me from going to lithium.
Thank you Will. I have the Bluetti AC200P in my van and I have been on the road full time a year and a half now. I have 720 watts of solar and every month or so, as Bluetti suggests, I discharge to O and charge back to 100% to sync the BMS with the batteries. That fixes any issues like, you are up to 100%, but in 5 minutes you are down to 80% with very little drain. That just means it says it charged to 100%, but was really only around 82%. Once in a while, I have to do it twice if I waited too long. But, once I do, I can run my ac in the summer just fine and my diesel heater in the winter and my fridge year round with no issues. I also have an EB3A I use to charge my cell phone, cordless tool batteries, power banks, etc . I charge up the EB 3A from the Big Bluetti which gets power from the sun. So far, so good. 1.5 years on the road and off grid. I bought your book to learn about solar installations and did all of mine myself. Thank you.
My lfp has been powering my entire daily life for 5 years so far and It still feels like science fiction that a battery the size of 2 cases of beer can do that. Its already paid for itself so I have another 5 or 10 years of free power but I am likely to upgrade before then. Waiting until I can buy panels of 30% efficiency that takes my 2000w to 3000 so I can consistently fully charge the extra capacity. Good advice as always Mr Prowse, use the crap out of them and break even sooner then be saving from then on. Not to mention the warm and fuzzies you get from getting bent over by one less corporation.
Got Tesla model 3 LFP. Just got 100k miles after 16 months. Only 4% degradation! I drive Uber. Drive on chill. Charge daily to 100%. Full days are: 100-10-70-10, repeat. About 25% fast chargers, 75% at home. After watching this channel, I waited until i could get the LFP battery.
Nope. There is no way it's only 4% degraded. The tesla dashboard is lying to you. 4% degraded would be 200 cycles and you've done way more than that. This is in a perfect world. This is a high c rate application as well. Why do you believe anything musk says???
My Model S from 2014 with NMC I have mostly charged at SuC and driven 370.000 km (229,000 miles) still with original battery and only lost like 1% a year in average. I drive every day and charge at SuC almost every day. And once or twice a year to 100 %. My Model Y I charge to 100% at least once a week.
I used to do cell phone repair and had the 80/20 conversation with many customers. Even if you save a bit of wear on the battery, you are giving up 40% of your overall capacity to do so. Batteries are a consumable item, and can be replaced in 99% of cases. Use it, enjoy it, and fix it when it breaks.
@@pinchofdoomLFP batteries at least in theory as I don’t have personal experience last significantly longer as in years longer then a battery with Lithium Ion chemistry if cared for properly.
@@nicholasespinoza9610I got a Motorola MotoG2 when it first came out (2014 or 15) and it finally died in 2023. I was absolutely not 80-20ing, more like 100-10ing. Even those batteries can last a long time
I have watched his stuff coming up 5 years now and built so many portable systems all based on his experience and educating. I really like this Myth Buster one.
Great practical information, thanks! Longevity begins at the factory- Interesting evidence that a High C Rate initial charge can extend longevity by 50%: Researchers from the SLAC-Stanford Battery Center (formerly Stanford Linear Accelerator Center) said that charging lithium-ion batteries for the very first time at unusually high speeds extends their lifespan by an average of 50% and up to a maximum of 70%. The study said: “Formation is a critical step in battery manufacturing. During this process, lithium inventory is consumed to form the solid electrolyte interphase (SEI), which in turn determines the battery lifetime… Surprisingly, high-formation charge current on the first cycle extends battery cycle life by an average of 50%.”
The EcoFlow Delta Pro recommends 30-90 (within the app parameters) but i ignore that and go 0-100 as they advertise themselves that the unit is good for 3500 cycles while retaining 80% capacity. I questioned them and asked by cycle do you mean from 90-30-90 or from 100-0-100 and they said the latter. So why on earth then would i follow the 30-90 threshhold? I dont get it. After hearing this video i now know with confidence that what i was already doing is right. Good stuff Will thanks ❤ Tom (United Kingdom)
Most of these battery and power station brands don't actually have anyone on staff who is a battery expert, so they often get it wrong when it comes to LiFepO4. In fact, in the early days, these companies were using standard lithium-ion (NMC) and that probably got them into some bad habits when they finally switched to LiFePO4, which is a completely different chemistry. There was a famously bad battery company... a company that actually built LiFePO4 cells in the early days. Really early days (like 20 years ago) who had little understanding of the chemistry they were building. I forget the name but they had ridiculously high charge targets listed in their literature which caused many a battery failure. Over the years they kept dropping the cell charge targets over and over again. Took years before they actually specified proper voltages. Many early (and even still some modern) LiFePO4 battery chargers use a 3.65V/cell target that basically fights the BMS disconnect voltage at the end. Not ideal. So many still haven't learned that there is no need to charge past 3.55V/cell.
For Lithium based battery (Probably Lifepo4 too since it have too Lithium). Half charge (50% state of charge) is the less damaging for them. More you move away this state, more damage you get in calendar life cycle in the long run, it's not instantly. It like pressure, more you add pressure, (Like charging like 120%) Less life expectancy you will get. Same with completely remove all the pressure (Fully discharge them, those type really don't like that). It's why many vendors suggest to rarely discharge them below 20%, other 10%, and this influencer say now 0% and even Tesla with LFP say you can do as this influencer say. What is not said with this influencer. Is this 0% is maybe for some manufacturer for example 12 volts battery, bms is programmed for 10 volts, other 10.5v ect. those are not the same 0% and you will not get the same level of degradation with fully discharging. It's the same with fully charged, (Most ajuste to for Li-ion 4.2volts per cell, my EV car is 4.1V per cell,) Less full pressure = less degradation normally with Li-ion. Personnel opinion, I have too for my tractor Lifepo4. I take no chance, I play with it around 50%. 3 years now I have it and do it, no trouble at all with it until now. In my case, normally only once a year I fully charge them to verifying their capacity remaining. Maybe this influencer is right, but I prefer to take no chance and too have like 6000 ore more cycles, compared to 3000 for example.
I agree with everything you said except for DOD to zero. Although LiFePO4 have a much higher usable capacity than lead acid, the grafts still clearly show the relationship of DOD cycles and life expectancy. What am i missing? Thank you.
Absolutely disagree. And if you're hitting zero you should probably make your battery bigger. Probably did not calculate days of autonomy correctly. There is reduced degradation but who cares. Use the battery and stop worrying about it. You'll use it now or you'll use it later
Very few use cases actually do 100% DOD on a daily basis, so we are left with... well, what about those few weeks in a year where you might need a 100% DOD? Will that effect cycle life? Answer: NO. So there is no need to program your battery to cut-off at 80% DOD. Definitely allow 100% DOD from the battery itself, particularly if you don't actually use 100% DOD on a daily basis. Most setups barely use 25% DOD on average. In anycase, the DOD cycle life calculation to 80% is theoretical and assumes constant temperature and constant C-rates. Most actual use cases have neither. Even using a baseline 3000 cycles at 100% DOD, 3000 cycles, cycled daily, is still 8 years. That would be an extremely heavy use of the battery, only grid-scale battery systems might even come close to that. But temperature has a huge effect. A lower temperature (but still above freezing, obviously), exponentially increases the cycle life. A higher temperature vastly reduces the cycle life. But again, its an average. Just because it might 100F during the day means buckus if it drops to 60F overnight. As an example. So in terms of battery health, if you have the choice of storing the battery in a conditioned space verses an unconditioned space, you generally choose the conditioned space. But unless the battery gets too cold, an unconditioned space isn't the end of the world. -Matt
from my experience, if you keep it charged to 100% also and you have to leave it 1-2 months even with bms/system connected, the cells starts to swell and die.. so if you are leaving, you need to make sure its at 40% charge and someone is attending the system or just disconnect the bms/system for that period.
@@videostar555 I saw a youtuber claim that he has several UPS's that float their LFP batteries at 3.45v/cell, for 5 years so far. He claims no noticeable degradation.
I'm going to have a Sungrow high voltage battery with my solar instalation. Should I keep it in my house (max 29 degrees constant) or outside where we might get 45 degrees in some days outside, but 20 degrees at night... Thank you for making these informative videos for so long!
Will, Great information…. I have a LFP portable power station, I just leave it plugged in to a wall outlet all the time when I am not using it. Does a constant charge destroy life expectancy? I do notice that it drops down to 90% then it goes back to 100%….. Keep up the great work, and keep those videos coming…. Thanks Jeff
With LifePo4 you state "down to 0%" am I correct your are referring to SOC, or 10V? Also, with LifePo4 did I understand correctly that it is good to keep at 100% or bring to 100% for cell balancing and then discharge to 50% for storage?
He was saying charge it to 100% and use it normally. That’s one part. Totally unrelated to the storage for months at a time part. Store around 50% and top them up occasionally (every 2-3 months) but most importantly…use them while you’ve got them
Thanks for the explanation. So many contributors are still maintaining the 80-20% theory that applies to lithium ion. The other thing that drives me nuts are those that claim AC is pass thru on power stations and can be used as a UPC with such a quick change over. What change over?
Several things I’ve noticed. #1 Loose Eve cells(not connected to anything) have incredibly low self discharge. My thinking is that the bms just being connected, even turned off is a parasitic drain. For extreme long term storage, if accessible, disconnect the balance leads/power supply to the bms. #2 If a battery is stored for a long period of time, regardless of the storage voltage, it will take a long time at absorb voltage to balance the cells, even with an active balancer(but much less than a passive balancer). If possible reduce charge current as the battery approaches and at absorb voltage. This will reduce the high cell disconnect and more time charging when there is a larger than normal imbalance.
Yes. I've stored cells for years disconnected and have lost no charge at all. It's the bms that eats them if left. Don't store at high charge though. That bit is right.
Good info - thanks. Have you seen cases of and LFP battery actually being damaged by STORAGE in cold temperatures? I live in MT and have had my SOK RV batteries exposed to temperatures as low as -45F last winter and a capacity test after this exposure showed nearly full capacity on these 3 yr old batteries (I can provide a link to the capacity test data if desired). It would be a big convenience not to have to protect my LFP batteries for below zero cold spells that we get several times a winter.
The SOK battery enclosures are easy to get the lids off of, just a few screws. Actually helped a friend swap a BMS in one of his some time back. Most other enclosures are glued down, not user serviceable.
Always informative! I'm still trying to charge them up. But think my charge controller is not 100 percent going to swap it out.. I'm totally off grid so need to try and bring it back up.
@WillProwse I keep seeing 14.2-14.65v being recommended for charge voltage. But what voltage is best and do you recommend in order to accomplish 100 percent charge and alow the bms to self balance best while also not hurting ones battery? Love all your content! Thanks man!
I use 14.4, figuring somewhere in the middle might be best. Not so low the BMS cannot balance, but not so high that a slight surge in power from my solar system could over-Voltage them.
@@Tumbleweed5150 makes sense! Appreciate the insight. Just trying to determine the best voltage for best health of the battery but also to trigger the bms to balance correctly.
@@WillProwse It is interesting to me that the default victron lifepo4 profile is 14.2v. Is that evdn enough voltage to start the battery balance process? How long does voltage need to be held by the battery charger at say 14.4v in order for the bms to successfully balance? Assume one can't just reach 14.4v and then turn off the charger? Or does the bms balance even when the battery charger is unpluged if the pack is at 100 percent?
@@forestpassineau we've talked about this for years. They use Winston cells and with their external control system for their old batteries, they recommended that voltage. Doesn't really matter. Some recommend 14.2, some 14.6. doesn't really matter
I am still using a set of 4 Miady batteries(16ah) that I bought before your review. They pretty much only run a fridge in my jeep now. I did have to replace 1 bms but I never expected them to perform like they have.
Thanks for the excellent summary. I bought a Bluetti and a Pecron for camping / preparedness last year. I leave them in storage when I'm traveling, sometimes for up to 6 months. In Laughlin, NV, so a bit hotter than Las Vegas. I was wondering if that would be an issue with regards to longevity and it sounds like I shouldn't be too worried about it. I do charge them at least monthly when I'm there. (I'd advise everyone to put a monthly reminder in you calendar to charge them.)
Don’t over discharge; don’t allow to get to zero. 50% at least for storage; charge LFP to 100% and maintain balance once a month; avoid extreme temperature; 40 degrees plus is bad, 20C is best; watch for BMS failure; use battery plenty and often
What maintenance charger would you recommend to keep the batteries at 50% state of charge while not in use? Would it be sufficient to use a normal 12V charger, say a 1 Amp DC power supply?
Im not Will of course... but IMHO best practice for batteries that you are not using and cycling (in other words stored for when needed) is to charge to 100% every 6-9 months and right after that, discharge to 50%. You need a battery monitor or way to measure the Ah drawn to get to 50%.
For longer discussion of every point in this video, check out my charging guidelines here: ruclips.net/video/K9Tfivf5bAI/видео.html
For references to studies for me to draw this conclusion, go here: diysolarforum.com/threads/cycling-degradation-vs-calendar-aging-w-lifepo4-batteries-used-for-solar-application.94487/
Does diy solar confuse you? Check out my website! www.mobile-solarpower.com
0:00 Intro and BMS Basics
1:31 #1 Cause
3:34 #2 Cause
6:44 #3 Cause
7:47 #1 Hardware Failure
8:58 Basic Guidelines to Follow
Be sure to join the forum if youre a beginner! Check it out here: diysolarforum.com/
Hi@@WillProwse
Are you recommending going from 3.55 v up to 3.65v?
What about using them in an RV environment. You'll never discharge to 0% in an RV because you need to have that power available at all times.
@@nitrox58 With a battery that has a built-in BMS, the better way to look at it is a 12.8V LiFePo4 battery should be charged up to at least 14.4V.
I've seen all kinds of opinions about charging to 100% or discharging to 0%. I trust you the most, so thanks for this video.
@@Justnn Usually "0%" is not true zero. If you do not let your battery sit at 0%, you will be fine. If you discharge to "0%" the BMS is stopping the battery within a safe zone of discharge, but if you let it sit like that, it will continue to discharge and reach true zero, which is bad.
@@user82938Cool. Newbie here. So, most don’t tell you the problem of leaving it at 0 is because of the continued self-discharge.
If I’m charging RV battery every day on solar and happen to deplete it overnight, it’s not going to damage it if the charging starts up again the next day. That’s my typical scenario and was concerned I’d lose an expensive battery.
If you check the datasheets of EVE's prismatic LiFePO4 batteries, you'll see that the manufacturer itself says the batteries will last up to 3 times as many cycles if you stay in the 50%-80% range, vs charging/discharging from 0% to 100% and back again.
@@luis0000luis I've seen that as well. Yet I've also seen articles that claims you shouldn't charge to 100% because that last 1% harms the battery's. Yet the GOAT says the top 1% balances the cells in the string...?
There's so much conflicting information It's hard to gauge what's right.
I charge to 100% every day. then down to 40%.
@@luis0000luis Mine is Renogy and they don’t seem to get specific about cycles, but they also say better to keep within 20 and 80 for longevity. Interesting though, both their chargers, solar and inverter, are default set to charge to 100%. I don’t think I have a choice anyway, I need 60% or more most days in winter. 🤷♂️
I have 4x 5.1kw LFP batteries. I have been charging them with solar to 100% every day and discharging down to normally between 30-50% overnight. The BMS tells me that the SOH (state of health) is 99% after a full years use. Couldn't be happier.
What voltage are you charging at/to?
@forestpassineau They're Pytes batteries so I'm sure that it's the standard 48v all controlled with a Sol-Ark 15k.
Sounds about right. Your Depth of Discharge (DoD) is about 60% so that means the battery should be able to get to 10k cycles before 20% degradation. You did 365 cycles which is 365/10000 = 0.037. So you have done 3.7% of the 20% degradation, which means 3.7%*0.2 = 0.7% in absolute battery terms.
@@C4rb0neum Thanks for the calculations. Very helpful and interesting. Now I have a reference point, I plan to keep an eye out for when the SOH drops to 98% and see how close it is to your figures and then I'll be able to get a more accurate picture of the lifespan of the batteries.
@@forestpassineau The Sol-Ark info screen says that the battery is charging at around 56.8V
no bs no filler. thank you
I am an avid sponsorblock user and submitter of youtuber wank, this channel has none.
It’s reassuring but I find actual data more reassuring than “trust me bro.”
@
Obvs not. Why tf would you make another video, and without those refs if you’ve already made “endless videos” previously explaining it??
@@Dr_Wrong ruclips.net/video/K9Tfivf5bAI/видео.html
@@Dr_Wrong Join the discussion: diysolarforum.com/threads/will-prowse-says-charging-0-100-daily-is-a-non-issue-for-lifepo4-battery-longevity-thoughts.94004/page-12#post-1262448
Oh BTW... Your new title should be SOLAR GURU... You are my go to guy for any solar information. Very educated man keep up the great work!
This has been a topic that I've been unsure about while setting up my solar system. Thanks for the explanation.
Thanks Will for the great info. I currently own an EV, 3 ebikes, 2 electric scooters and 3 litime batterys for my boat. A person could drive themselves crazy trying to over manage these batteries. I store my stuff inside during the winter off season at around 60% and check on them monthly for self discharge and don't really obsess over it. I like your approach and will start to charge to full more often as well. Great video as usual I really appreciate your content!
I am off-grid and use four Enjoybot 12v Lifepo4 batteries setup in series 24v (2 bats 24v ) and paralleled hooked up to a 5000 watt inverter to run my 1hp water pressure tank. The charge controller is a Renogy 40 amp . I set up the charge controller in manual mode with the charge set at 13.7 volts , if I set it any higher the inverter trips because the voltage is too high. 13.7 x2= 27.4v. It's a 24v inverter. The Enjoybot batteries have been doing well now for two years. Thanks for all of your helpful videos!!
I absolutely am thankful for all of your videos! You are a treasure to the RUclips world. I dont comment, however - I do click the "Like Button" , and I do watch all of your videos. Thank You for your time and efforts !
Thank you Will Prouse (and the HoboTech and others);for keeping me informed for years and years and years of DIY solar.
Waiting for you to get hands on an EG4 12000xp, that will be the final word I'll be waiting to go for it. If I believe someone in these topics is you. Forever thankful with the videos and time you spend filming them for us.
Looking at hundreds of videos on youtube, you are the only one with who I'm fully in agreement. Congratulation, your lessons are great ! Peppe from Napoli.
Weeee... Salutami a pizza cu a pummaroro en coppa
The GOAT of diy solar!
Absolutely!
I disagree. More like the GOD of his craft.
Good to know - I bought four LIFEPO4 Ecoworthy 12V 100Ah last month to put into my battery boxes that are paired with foldable solar panels, but have them stored in a cabinet. I'll take them out to fully charge them this weekend. Thanks Will!
50% not 100%)
And cycle it once or twice before storage to balance cells 0-100-0-100-50 , good luck
Really informative and easily understood. Thanks for taking the time to help educate us!
Will you are not only obviously very intelligent you do an excellent job of explaining things so they are easily understood.
You mention “extreme cold” in the video but I never heard a temperature mentioned that would define extreme cold in your opinion.
BTW - I’m running your EG4 48V off grid setup full time off grid now for going on 2 years. Love it!
Extreme cold in relation to LiFePO4 batteries is below 32F or 0C for longer than an hour or two. In a working system, the output of the batteries to power appliances, etc., usually will keep the interior of the battey warm enough for this. Any lower or longer, you will want to use some form of warming the batteries.
It's not a hard line. More of a curve. As you approach 32°F, the charge rate should use fewer and fewer amps until you get to 32°F where it would be zero amps. Discharge does not follow this approach as they can be discharged at much colder temperatures without damage. (I keep my cells warmed in the 35°F to 45°F range in the winter.) Consult your LiFePO4 cell/battery manufacturer's datasheet for the actual charge/discharge ranges.
@ I’m off grid in VT Green Mountains. My house is obviously warm but the barn I built this summer only has a wood stove in the shop area. I just threw a EcoFlow Delta Pro I had in there for now. I will turn off the PV this winter and only fast charge with my generator on above freezing days. Should be fine for at least this winter. 4 years now off grid.
These are the videos I like the most! Getting back to the basics. Thanks again Will!
this william is a true inspirational story . listening to him educate him self when his health was poor and is now on top of the world. you inspire so many people to do things they had no idea they can do . by the way ev cars seen to be a bomb on the move careful people.
The few failed units I've had all were the BMS went bad. Technically blocked the batteries from getting charged. Heat storage, well that's another issue here in Texas that goes up over 100F in the summer. All very good info for viewers, so great video
Hi Will, I've watched every episode since you started in your RV, and you're very good at what you do. I'm an (Aussie) electrician of 45 years experience and 60 YO and you nail it every time. I just bought a cheap AU$30,000 MG4 EV, which has a LiFe 51Kw setup and you're right on about what to do. Not only for solar/home setups but also EV's. I know you're full time basically doing what you do but if you ventured into the "car" world of batteries it would only make your channel better. Although I don't recomment cutting open car batteries to see what's inside. But hey, you might go there one day you're that good, and now very experienced. Bravo young man I always look forward to watching your episodes, they never fail to impress me.
hmm $30k / 51kwh = aud588 per kwh plus a car, not bad I guess :)
This and many other videos you have produced are just wonderful information pieces. Thank you so much for putting time and energy into giving people like us information about batteries and power set up.
One other comment stated they needed to know more information about extreme cold weather as I do
I installed two different 100 amp our batteries in my RV last summer and they worked phenomenally well. I live in the exact opposite atmosphere that you do in Leadville Colorado, which is at 10,200 feet in elevation and we have a very long cold winter . The RV is stored outside and I spent the extra time to remove the batteries prior to storage which takes a good bit of time and as a pain in the butt and of course there’s putting them back in every spring. The winter here stays below 32° for at least 4 to 5 months and many nights can get down to -20°throughout the winter. Even in November last night it was -6. Can I leave these batteries in the RV over the winter and not have severe damage or is it way way better to take them out like I did?
Thank you so much Will for sharing your expertise and know how. I pretty much learned how to hook up a solar system thanks to you! I bought your book and it is amazing how much knowledgeable info is in there. Thanks again buddy, I truly appreciate what you do. God bless my friend 🙏
Cleared up a lot of myths with this one, and you're the one to trust on the subject! Thank you.
This was great, I've been trying to decide on charge rates and battery location for upgrading our travel trailer from AGM to LiFePO4 and these tips really helped me understand how to think about these problems. Unfortunately in a travel trailer either inside or outside in New Mexico the batteries are going to roast and freeze. :)
Same here, but Wisconsin winters are the issue when outside stored. I guess it is best to charge to full then battery disconnect till April?.
Northern New Mexico resident here. I got tired of babysitting and frequently replacing lead acid batteries for my RVs over the years and decided to upgrade our RV with LiFePO. I bought a single Battle Born 100Ah battery and I couldn't be happier. It's been nearly 5 years and it still works like it was brand new. It's located inside the RV under the bed, so it gets insulated from extreme cold and heat year round.
Thank you for the reminder!!! I have a very sweet 48 volt battery made from part of a chevy volt pack intended for an amphbious boat project that has been on hold for several years. It went into storage at near full charge and I did top it up once but then became busy with life and neglected it until I saw your video and went yikes! Fortunately it had only dropped to 47 volts and it only took three hours at 3 amps to return to its max 50 volts level. Whew....I could have been your poster boy on what not to do!! Love your straight forward videos, your obvious passion for the subject and clear instruction....glad you are getting the support you need to continue and expand...you deserve it.
50 volts and 50 percent are different on a 48v battery. Check how many volts will indicate 50% of your battery. Google says 48.2v is at 50% charge. Will recommends 50% for storage, not full as you have done by charging to 50v.
1000% agree with you in this video! Thank you for sharing good info, the internet is full of bad advice and I’m constantly teaching people about this
My main issue is keeping them warm enough throughout the winter. I built a 2” foam enclosure inside a 4’ x 8’ crate that houses my inverter and charge controller all inside the 3cu ft foam box. I have the batteries sitting on a 12v warming pad made for Rv water tanks to help warm up the batteries when the temp drops below 32f . We regularly see temps get as low as -10F in January and February.
Always good information without any fluff. Great channel Will, thanks again
Your absolutely 100% right, built my solar system slowly since 2018 and know every of your video.
I have one Growatt and smaller backup inverter. Using and upgrading my LiFePO4 batteries whenever I can.
And yes, recently on of my BMS from my LG 15kW battery died (got them batteryhookup).
May make a video for which BMS is best, in case someone is in need, like me now.
well i am relieved, i have been doing all of these things and have been very happy with my batteries
Very useful advice here about using LiFePo batteries. I also used to think the 80/20 rule applied with them after moving over from an NCM lithium set up. Great to know i can go to 100% and use the full voltage range on discharge.
Love your videos as always. Fellow engineer here, but mechanical. Your book helped me build the most kick ass solar setup and battery bank build for my camper. At a fraction of the price. One thing I'll expand on is low state of charge. I made the mistake of buying BMSs that had no Bluetooth functionality, or even a connector for the Bluetooth dongle. So even though I was charging my bank consistently after ignoring it for 3 months, I started to notice capacity issues. 2 of the BMSs never woke up. Took 2 years to figure it out. I bought 8 cells to replace the 2 sets of 4s 12v batteries. And I made a jumper pin to "jumpstart" across B- and C- on all 6 of my builds. It also allows me to check if voltage is the same before and after the BMS. Which is my poor man's way of seeing if the BMS is awake. TLDR; use Bluetooth compatible BMSs if you're gonna DIY and follow Will's advice. But jumping across the BMS works in a pinch.
Your channel is so good dude. Love your content. Tons of valuable information. Explained in Laymans terms as well thanks again, brother.
Very clear and useful. I have multiple patents in this field and your communication of a normally confusing topic is very well done. Kudos.
The Picture of Will Prowse/Dorian Grey. You don't seem to age. Been watching your channel for a while. I'm jealous, you don't seem to age. Where do you hide your painting?
The trick is the picture is a single frame from one of his RUclips videos
@@jamieclarke321😂😂😂
Thanks for the tips! I installed LiTime 2 x 230ah batteries a few months ago on my sailboat. Definitely a learning curve with them, but so far I’m loving them. Will be increasing my solar in the near future.
Got your book brother and I use it as my solar bible. Using your 400 watt setup. Thanks for helping to educate us.
So much information in one video. GOAT! Would love a video on extreme cold off grid systems. It gets cold in northern canada eh!
You are on a roll with the videos lately!!! :)
Thanks!
Have really been loving your recent videos Will! Keep doing what you're doing.
I have two 100ah Expion batteries in my RV. They charge with a Morningstar MPPT controller programmed to charge Lipo's. I have 700 watts on the roof. Now that our RV season is gone I've brought the batteries down to 59% and they've been sitting for two months, so far. I'm in the Reno area so you know it'll be getting cold. No problem with them sitting at 59% while we wait for our next trip? I check my battery monitor every couple weeks and they consistently show 59%. I have disconnected the batteries from any contact with the trailer's electrical system to avoid any phantom draws.
I learned all this 6 years ago when I bought an E-MTB with Bosch 36v 13ah batteries- never store fully charged, long term store at 40%, keep somewhere cool with stable temperature. If you do partially charge to say 80% then periodically you must take the batteries up to 100% (It takes 32 mins per 20% to charge from 0-80%, except the last 20 % at 80-100% that takes 90 mins and shows the slow balancing as each cell hits 100%)....Both my batteries have minimal degradation and I can still get the same distances for any level of assist. When I first got the bike the advice from everyone was "when you get home fully charge it"...WRONG!! Never charge a physically warm battery, likewise a charged battery needs to cool before use, and I only ever take the battery to 100% in the hour before I plan to use it so it's not sitting in a high state of charge.....
Excellent advice Will! I have a 120 amp hour LFP battery in my bank that went into service in December of 2016. I followed the rules you describe, and after 8 years in service, it tests at 112 amp hours capacity. That's less than 1% capacity fade per year.
Good point on the BMS - I bought 3 wall mount batteries a couple years back - all 3 of them had a BMS failure! The vendor replaced each of them under warranty, but it still surprised me how they all failed, almost one after another.
Holy cow!!! What battery was that?
Not one problem with my two JBD 12v 4s 120 amp BMS. Reliable and performed very well. I wish I had gone with JBD when I created my latest battery which is 48v but I followed the crowd and went with Jikong (JK).
My model 3 rwd has the white phosphorus battery. I manually set the home charge limit to 75% to avoid unnecessary top balancing, but I do charge it to 100% on Sundays, the lord’s day, to keep the BMS happy.
Exactly what I needed to learn. I have a newer Chins 51.2 100AH Golf Cart battery. Love it! Was scared to discharge completely. Not anymore! 30 mile trip SOON! 🙌
if you hang some sheets, or even better, blankets, it will absorb the sound and kill that echo. or audio foam absorbing panels
Thanks
This is exactly how I run my LiFePO4 batteries but I love hearing it from you. :)
Will, thanks for this very important video. Now that I watched it, I realized that I could be screwed. I bought 6 100-amp hour 48-volt LIPO batteries from Signature Solar back in 2019 to run my off-grid house, then I thought, 6 more would be great to have as a backup, so I bought them about 6 months later. I opened up and charged 3 of the 6 extra batteries but left the others in their original boxes. I really need to check on all the extra batteries as it's been a few years and they've been sitting in my garage up in UT where it gets near or below freezing. I pray I haven't wasted $$$$ due to my ignorance. I don't live in UT but only go up to visit and work on projects and living in Henderson NV I don't really think about things like you mentioned in this video. Wow, this video was an eye opener.
Didn't know about self discharge. 😮 Running down to the basement to hook up my charger right now! Thanks.🏃♂
I would think that the BMS has a small small small idle current.
I have had my LFP for 18 months. I have been monitoring the percent charge. I have not been able to see any discharge so I believe that it is small: as mentioned in the video.
@@edwardlulofs444 the percent charge probably won't have any way of reflecting this natural loss and BMS parasitic loss. I'd charge it back up and observe how much charge it absorbed to get an idea of how much it had lost.
It depends. My lithium batteries for my Worx tools, over winter, show no change from November to April (I take them out of the tools). Both UPS (UPSes?), if I unplugged them, would show around 1% per month.
It depends on how wasteful the BMS is. As an example, I have a USB battery bank that I've had for over 10 years. It's fairly sizable for a battery bank, and you can leave that puppy in a drawer for a year or more and it will still happily fully charge your phone. It has the usual soft-on button and will automatically start delivering power when you plug something in to the USB port, so it absolutely has a microprocessor-controlled power management controller inside that is always powered up. It just has a (relative to the capacity of the battery) *very* low parasitic load.
When you compare something like that to a car-battery sized LiFePo4 cell, there's absolutely zero logical reason that the cell protection's load should be anything at all measurable. "3% a month" quoted in the video is a criminal level of wastefulness, IMO. Good lord.
At that point, you're paying for all the expense of Lithium, and getting all the advantages of Lead-Acid. >
Thank you for the video, it's very informative. I do have a few questions:
1) Is it better if the BMS begins balancing at 90% instead of 100%? Do they make BMSs like that?
2) How do people add "active balancing circuits" without opening the battery case?
"People seem to think they know more than the engineers who designed these things."
Unfortunately very true. Also, might I add that by the time these batteries hit their 10 year mark, they will still hold most of their capacity and by that time, new tech or cheaper cells hit the market and you STILL have your Lifepo4 batts.
We trust the engineers. We just don't trust the bean counters and Planned Obsolescence.
@PatrickKQ4HBD 😂😂
Not so much the new cells but that the same battery size of that chemistry cost will be like a quarter of the current 50 odd USD per kWh coming out of CATL /BYD now.
Hey Will. Love your videos. I'm an old lady with arthritis and I have a hard time disconnecting solar wires. I was thinking about altering the wires and putting one of the yellow connectors XT60 plugs on the wires instead of the connectors, but I'm not educated enough to know if that will work or not. It would be great to see a short video with solutions for those who don't have a lot of strength and dexterity. :)
Will, Thanks for all you do on your channel , following since later part of 2022. Because of your expertise I have built a complete solar system for off grid operations. Cheers
Same here. When I first started posting on Will's forum I was absolutely beyond clueless. I was uploading my "plans" for this huge 12V system for our off grid cabin that look nothing like what we have today thanks to the education I got there from the forum members. It took two years on his forum (I'm slow) to finally get comfortable, but what we came away with is a super great 48V system that powers our off grid cabin and heats it with an electric heat pump. In Alaska! With our solar arrays located 600 feet away from our cabin. And we installed all the DC stuff ourselves all from research on his forum. DIYSolarForum is a must for anybody wanting to learn about off grid solar.
Will is the best I’m 55 done a lot he’s a true pro knows his skill set not just talk
I use my ecoflow delta 2 almost daily. Did set the charge and discharge points at 90% then 10%. Also lowered charging speed to 400 watts. Didn't realize the balancer won't kick on, looks like i need to change my settings
depends on how the particular bms is programmed - they aren't all set the same.
Great information, Will.
I have the EG4 LL-S battery. Living on the southern border of Arizona.... and being over paneled my battery rarely drops below 60%
SS tech advises to discharge down to 20% twice a year.... I do it once a month, but after listening to you here, I will change my low setting to 10%.
thx again
Glad to hear your opinion on charging. I have 3 100 ah batteries. Mostly use them for a trolling motor battery, but like leaving them at 100% charge in case i need them for backup power at the house. I was worried about keeping them at 100 %.
Keep my EPOCH trolling batteries in 90s for storage…even keep out in garage during winter…fine
"but like leaving them at 100% charge in case i need them for backup power at the house." You want to float them in this case at a voltage that will not send any current into the battery once it's been fully charged. You can float them at 13.4 (3.35v/cell). This would be safe for a UPS mode setup.
Thanks for the heads up Will... I have 6 batteries which were put up in faraday cages over a year ago that definitely need to be charged up. Thanks for to motivation .....charging as we speak
Been watching you for years always great content really appreciate all your information. They really loving your new videos. You take care and God bless.
Excellent topic Will! Thank you so much for covering this.
For those of us that have our ecoflow battery generators and are preppers that mostly keep these stored. Every 3 months do we charge it all the way to 100% for the battery balancers? And then discharge it down to 50% for storage? Or just charge it up to 100% and leave it every 3 months? I think you mentioned that the proper percent to store it at is 50%
I am not sure, but I believe the 50% is the minimum to charge it to...or leave it at. The 100% is for making sure the balancing is done. SHIPPERS are not allowed by law to ship them at over 50%.
I have been looking at lithium batteries for some time. Your information is always great. I need 3 X 400 amp batteries at 12 volt for a RV. The problems with fier is what stops me from going to lithium.
Hey Will, what about multiple 12V LifePo4 in series, isn't there a balancer necessary to ensure the balancing as you have multiple independent BMS?
Love your channel Will, I'm frequently directing people here to learn about off grid setups.
Thank you Will. I have the Bluetti AC200P in my van and I have been on the road full time a year and a half now. I have 720 watts of solar and every month or so, as Bluetti suggests, I discharge to O and charge back to 100% to sync the BMS with the batteries. That fixes any issues like, you are up to 100%, but in 5 minutes you are down to 80% with very little drain. That just means it says it charged to 100%, but was really only around 82%. Once in a while, I have to do it twice if I waited too long. But, once I do, I can run my ac in the summer just fine and my diesel heater in the winter and my fridge year round with no issues. I also have an EB3A I use to charge my cell phone, cordless tool batteries, power banks, etc . I charge up the EB 3A from the Big Bluetti which gets power from the sun. So far, so good. 1.5 years on the road and off grid. I bought your book to learn about solar installations and did all of mine myself. Thank you.
My lfp has been powering my entire daily life for 5 years so far and It still feels like science fiction that a battery the size of 2 cases of beer can do that. Its already paid for itself so I have another 5 or 10 years of free power but I am likely to upgrade before then. Waiting until I can buy panels of 30% efficiency that takes my 2000w to 3000 so I can consistently fully charge the extra capacity. Good advice as always Mr Prowse, use the crap out of them and break even sooner then be saving from then on. Not to mention the warm and fuzzies you get from getting bent over by one less corporation.
This was your best show yet
Good job young man
Thanks!
Glad I can help Robert!! Thank you!!
Got Tesla model 3 LFP. Just got 100k miles after 16 months. Only 4% degradation! I drive Uber. Drive on chill. Charge daily to 100%. Full days are: 100-10-70-10, repeat. About 25% fast chargers, 75% at home. After watching this channel, I waited until i could get the LFP battery.
That's awesome. Heck yeah
Nice!!!
Nope. There is no way it's only 4% degraded. The tesla dashboard is lying to you. 4% degraded would be 200 cycles and you've done way more than that. This is in a perfect world. This is a high c rate application as well. Why do you believe anything musk says???
My Model S from 2014 with NMC I have mostly charged at SuC and driven 370.000 km (229,000 miles) still with original battery and only lost like 1% a year in average. I drive every day and charge at SuC almost every day. And once or twice a year to 100 %.
My Model Y I charge to 100% at least once a week.
@@Stoner916sac You don't have to believe it. It's his car. He can do whatever he wants with it. Don't drink the Hatorade though.
Another banger! While most of it I've generally already learned from you, some I didn't know. Thanks for all the stuff you've put out over the years!
I used to do cell phone repair and had the 80/20 conversation with many customers. Even if you save a bit of wear on the battery, you are giving up 40% of your overall capacity to do so. Batteries are a consumable item, and can be replaced in 99% of cases. Use it, enjoy it, and fix it when it breaks.
But you're talking LiPo, not LFP.
@@PatrickKQ4HBD True, but the reasoning is the same.
Giving up a large amount of your capacity to not lose capacity later is almost always a net loss.
@@pinchofdoomLFP batteries at least in theory as I don’t have personal experience last significantly longer as in years longer then a battery with Lithium Ion chemistry if cared for properly.
@@nicholasespinoza9610I got a Motorola MotoG2 when it first came out (2014 or 15) and it finally died in 2023. I was absolutely not 80-20ing, more like 100-10ing. Even those batteries can last a long time
I have watched his stuff coming up 5 years now and built so many portable systems all based on his experience and educating. I really like this Myth Buster one.
Great practical information, thanks!
Longevity begins at the factory-
Interesting evidence that a High C Rate initial charge can extend longevity by 50%:
Researchers from the SLAC-Stanford Battery Center (formerly Stanford Linear Accelerator Center) said that charging lithium-ion batteries for the very first time at unusually high speeds extends their lifespan by an average of 50% and up to a maximum of 70%.
The study said: “Formation is a critical step in battery manufacturing. During this process, lithium inventory is consumed to form the solid electrolyte interphase (SEI), which in turn determines the battery lifetime… Surprisingly, high-formation charge current on the first cycle extends battery cycle life by an average of 50%.”
The EcoFlow Delta Pro recommends 30-90 (within the app parameters) but i ignore that and go 0-100 as they advertise themselves that the unit is good for 3500 cycles while retaining 80% capacity. I questioned them and asked by cycle do you mean from 90-30-90 or from 100-0-100 and they said the latter. So why on earth then would i follow the 30-90 threshhold? I dont get it.
After hearing this video i now know with confidence that what i was already doing is right.
Good stuff Will thanks ❤
Tom (United Kingdom)
Most of these battery and power station brands don't actually have anyone on staff who is a battery expert, so they often get it wrong when it comes to LiFepO4. In fact, in the early days, these companies were using standard lithium-ion (NMC) and that probably got them into some bad habits when they finally switched to LiFePO4, which is a completely different chemistry.
There was a famously bad battery company... a company that actually built LiFePO4 cells in the early days. Really early days (like 20 years ago) who had little understanding of the chemistry they were building. I forget the name but they had ridiculously high charge targets listed in their literature which caused many a battery failure. Over the years they kept dropping the cell charge targets over and over again. Took years before they actually specified proper voltages.
Many early (and even still some modern) LiFePO4 battery chargers use a 3.65V/cell target that basically fights the BMS disconnect voltage at the end. Not ideal. So many still haven't learned that there is no need to charge past 3.55V/cell.
How bad is it to be charged to 100% for long term storage? I don't get why 50% is recommended. Tks!
For Lithium based battery (Probably Lifepo4 too since it have too Lithium). Half charge (50% state of charge) is the less damaging for them. More you move away this state, more damage you get in calendar life cycle in the long run, it's not instantly. It like pressure, more you add pressure, (Like charging like 120%) Less life expectancy you will get. Same with completely remove all the pressure (Fully discharge them, those type really don't like that). It's why many vendors suggest to rarely discharge them below 20%, other 10%, and this influencer say now 0% and even Tesla with LFP say you can do as this influencer say. What is not said with this influencer. Is this 0% is maybe for some manufacturer for example 12 volts battery, bms is programmed for 10 volts, other 10.5v ect. those are not the same 0% and you will not get the same level of degradation with fully discharging. It's the same with fully charged, (Most ajuste to for Li-ion 4.2volts per cell, my EV car is 4.1V per cell,) Less full pressure = less degradation normally with Li-ion. Personnel opinion, I have too for my tractor Lifepo4. I take no chance, I play with it around 50%. 3 years now I have it and do it, no trouble at all with it until now. In my case, normally only once a year I fully charge them to verifying their capacity remaining. Maybe this influencer is right, but I prefer to take no chance and too have like 6000 ore more cycles, compared to 3000 for example.
You really helped with how I'm treating my lawnmower batteries. All 3 of those points affect those types of batteries big time.
I agree with everything you said except for DOD to zero. Although LiFePO4 have a much higher usable capacity than lead acid, the grafts still clearly show the relationship of DOD cycles and life expectancy. What am i missing? Thank you.
Absolutely disagree. And if you're hitting zero you should probably make your battery bigger. Probably did not calculate days of autonomy correctly. There is reduced degradation but who cares. Use the battery and stop worrying about it. You'll use it now or you'll use it later
Very few use cases actually do 100% DOD on a daily basis, so we are left with... well, what about those few weeks in a year where you might need a 100% DOD? Will that effect cycle life? Answer: NO. So there is no need to program your battery to cut-off at 80% DOD. Definitely allow 100% DOD from the battery itself, particularly if you don't actually use 100% DOD on a daily basis.
Most setups barely use 25% DOD on average.
In anycase, the DOD cycle life calculation to 80% is theoretical and assumes constant temperature and constant C-rates. Most actual use cases have neither. Even using a baseline 3000 cycles at 100% DOD, 3000 cycles, cycled daily, is still 8 years. That would be an extremely heavy use of the battery, only grid-scale battery systems might even come close to that.
But temperature has a huge effect. A lower temperature (but still above freezing, obviously), exponentially increases the cycle life. A higher temperature vastly reduces the cycle life. But again, its an average. Just because it might 100F during the day means buckus if it drops to 60F overnight. As an example.
So in terms of battery health, if you have the choice of storing the battery in a conditioned space verses an unconditioned space, you generally choose the conditioned space. But unless the battery gets too cold, an unconditioned space isn't the end of the world.
-Matt
from my experience, if you keep it charged to 100% also and you have to leave it 1-2 months even with bms/system connected, the cells starts to swell and die.. so if you are leaving, you need to make sure its at 40% charge and someone is attending the system or just disconnect the bms/system for that period.
@@videostar555 I saw a youtuber claim that he has several UPS's that float their LFP batteries at 3.45v/cell, for 5 years so far. He claims no noticeable degradation.
@@jimmybrad156yes i do the same (3.45v) for last 3.5 years. but you must know that 3.45v is already like 99% charge.
I'm going to have a Sungrow high voltage battery with my solar instalation. Should I keep it in my house (max 29 degrees constant) or outside where we might get 45 degrees in some days outside, but 20 degrees at night...
Thank you for making these informative videos for so long!
#1 view Thank you Will for your info. I have bought your recommended batteries and have been very happy
Will, Great information…. I have a LFP portable power station, I just leave it plugged in to a wall outlet all the time when I am not using it. Does a constant charge destroy life expectancy? I do notice that it drops down to 90% then it goes back to 100%….. Keep up the great work, and keep those videos coming…. Thanks Jeff
With LifePo4 you state "down to 0%" am I correct your are referring to SOC, or 10V? Also, with LifePo4 did I understand correctly that it is good to keep at 100% or bring to 100% for cell balancing and then discharge to 50% for storage?
He was saying charge it to 100% and use it normally. That’s one part. Totally unrelated to the storage for months at a time part. Store around 50% and top them up occasionally (every 2-3 months) but most importantly…use them while you’ve got them
Thanks for the info! LiFePo4 is the best thing since microwave ovens. Where did you go to school? I've always wanted to know.
Self-taught for electronics. Has always been a hobby. Went to school for medicine but dropped out when I was disabled.
Have you talked about your disability before? @WillProwse
Thanks Will! I guess you already know you are a brilliant young man. So, what are you going to do?
Going to do? He is doing "it" now. RUclips channel reviewing products!
Thanks for the explanation. So many contributors are still maintaining the 80-20% theory that applies to lithium ion. The other thing that drives me nuts are those that claim AC is pass thru on power stations and can be used as a UPC with such a quick change over. What change over?
Several things I’ve noticed. #1 Loose Eve cells(not connected to anything) have incredibly low self discharge. My thinking is that the bms just being connected, even turned off is a parasitic drain. For extreme long term storage, if accessible, disconnect the balance leads/power supply to the bms. #2 If a battery is stored for a long period of time, regardless of the storage voltage, it will take a long time at absorb voltage to balance the cells, even with an active balancer(but much less than a passive balancer). If possible reduce charge current as the battery approaches and at absorb voltage. This will reduce the high cell disconnect and more time charging when there is a larger than normal imbalance.
Yes. I've stored cells for years disconnected and have lost no charge at all. It's the bms that eats them if left.
Don't store at high charge though. That bit is right.
Good info - thanks.
Have you seen cases of and LFP battery actually being damaged by STORAGE in cold temperatures?
I live in MT and have had my SOK RV batteries exposed to temperatures as low as -45F last winter and a capacity test after this exposure showed nearly full capacity on these 3 yr old batteries (I can provide a link to the capacity test data if desired).
It would be a big convenience not to have to protect my LFP batteries for below zero cold spells that we get several times a winter.
do a segment on which LiFePo batteries have swappable BMS's, and how to do it
Technically they all do if you’re determined enough
The SOK battery enclosures are easy to get the lids off of, just a few screws. Actually helped a friend swap a BMS in one of his some time back. Most other enclosures are glued down, not user serviceable.
If a bms failed would the Victron Lynx smart BMS work without having to tear down the battery?
@@dougd371 No, those only work with Victron batteries.
Always informative! I'm still trying to charge them up. But think my charge controller is not 100 percent going to swap it out.. I'm totally off grid so need to try and bring it back up.
Great advice, Will
Thanks Great vid, good explaination.
Question: how do we detect a failed BMS, before trouble occurs with the cells?
@WillProwse I keep seeing 14.2-14.65v being recommended for charge voltage. But what voltage is best and do you recommend in order to accomplish 100 percent charge and alow the bms to self balance best while also not hurting ones battery? Love all your content! Thanks man!
I use 14.4, figuring somewhere in the middle might be best. Not so low the BMS cannot balance, but not so high that a slight surge in power from my solar system could over-Voltage them.
@@Tumbleweed5150 makes sense! Appreciate the insight. Just trying to determine the best voltage for best health of the battery but also to trigger the bms to balance correctly.
Yeah 14.4 volts is perfect
@@WillProwse It is interesting to me that the default victron lifepo4 profile is 14.2v. Is that evdn enough voltage to start the battery balance process? How long does voltage need to be held by the battery charger at say 14.4v in order for the bms to successfully balance? Assume one can't just reach 14.4v and then turn off the charger? Or does the bms balance even when the battery charger is unpluged if the pack is at 100 percent?
@@forestpassineau we've talked about this for years. They use Winston cells and with their external control system for their old batteries, they recommended that voltage. Doesn't really matter. Some recommend 14.2, some 14.6. doesn't really matter
I am still using a set of 4 Miady batteries(16ah) that I bought before your review. They pretty much only run a fridge in my jeep now. I did have to replace 1 bms but I never expected them to perform like they have.
So much good info in one place
Thanks for the excellent summary. I bought a Bluetti and a Pecron for camping / preparedness last year. I leave them in storage when I'm traveling, sometimes for up to 6 months. In Laughlin, NV, so a bit hotter than Las Vegas. I was wondering if that would be an issue with regards to longevity and it sounds like I shouldn't be too worried about it. I do charge them at least monthly when I'm there. (I'd advise everyone to put a monthly reminder in you calendar to charge them.)
Thanks for the very clear video!
Don’t over discharge; don’t allow to get to zero. 50% at least for storage; charge LFP to 100% and maintain balance once a month; avoid extreme temperature; 40 degrees plus is bad, 20C is best; watch for BMS failure; use battery plenty and often
Very timely. I just bought some 48c DC House batteries for my sailboat. I dont need them to lar forever, just for right now.
Great info.... Bookmarked.
What happens if you store the LiFeP04 battery at 100% charge instead of 50% ?
What maintenance charger would you recommend to keep the batteries at 50% state of charge while not in use? Would it be sufficient to use a normal 12V charger, say a 1 Amp DC power supply?
Im not Will of course... but IMHO best practice for batteries that you are not using and cycling (in other words stored for when needed) is to charge to 100% every 6-9 months and right after that, discharge to 50%. You need a battery monitor or way to measure the Ah drawn to get to 50%.
@@W-4-Z-D So glad I saw this video, hopefully in time. I've got work to do ASAP. Hopefully they are not overdischarged.