Very well thought out proposals, Geb. I'm so tired of the artillery loop. They have so many options, but I have little faith in T17 listening to feedback or implementing things without breaking the game. At a bare minimum, they could make artillery something server owners/admins could enable/disable, the next step would be to make it a Commander call-in, and the final iteration would be to give us mortar squads like you outlined.
@@sutro-311 I agree. Recon should be more involved in helping assist squads and taking out key infantry like mgs and whatnot. I know even recon squads are tired of camping artillery.
@@USAFreewayROTF level 10 sniper here and 3 out of 5 games are spent hiding in a bush near arty, its got to the point that if my SL wants to do that, I join Infantry instead. We have a high power scope and can change battles in minutes but instead im killing the same guy every 10 seconds point blank. Such a waste
@@razma20001 Precisely my point. We need Recon to be 100 percent engaged in the entire battle. Watching areas for nearby squads, taking out key infantry, or relaying information to the commander. Not holed up near artillery to stop a tool that's capable of destroying entire areas from being used.
I think blending your optuons makes the best sense and releasing things slowly. 1st, you could place current artillery across the HQs, one gun per. That would help get the ball rolling for interest and strategy. I like the idea of 2x2 mortar teams. But they don't need their own supplies, work with the commander or support/ supply truck to build an emplacement. Keep artilery until SPGs come out. Ammo used for mortars should be set and resupply should be by jeep which is under utilized. That way the mortar SL can grab a jeep to resupply leaving the mortarman time to still fire but slower. Range of 600-800 would be good and dependant on where you would allow them to be built to prevent firing on enemy HQs. Otherwise less is more with all the restrictions. SPGs could fire on HQs but the closer they are, the more likely they would just get taken out by a lone AT guy or scout tank which become even more playable then.
MY personal proposal is turning recon squads into special weapons squads, so they have a spotter and the 2nd player could be a sniper, or a mortar. possibly other weapons. this way there's a choice to be made between dismantling enemy back lines or providing fire support.
The best solution of this. It’s already max 2 people, so if rename recon to special weapon squad and add mortar unit, it automatically will give people the ability to use mortar or sniper roles
@@HEYYAlex95 It actually makes more sense for the game itself, and we won't have to contribute more people to fulfill this role. The numbers would be the same and we're giving this squad more options. We're already stretched as is currently. This would negate that.
A proposal on the Mortar Teams, because I personally like the idea of a small specialist team having the capability for a mobile artillery that has an explosive yield a little higher than a grenade, but less than current artillery. 3 man team: Team Lead, Mortarman, Ammo Barer - Team lead is normal officer - Mortarman is like an AT where he can have a mobile mortar with smaller yield, or a second class has a buildable field mortar - Ammo barer tier 1 is basically like the Rifleman with a "mortar box" that drops a munitions box which consumes munitions, but is required to fire mortars, tier 2 is a mini support where he can drop a "mortar box" or a "mortar emplacement box" with the necessary 25 supplies to build the field mortar, and the mortar box still requires munitions to fuel the rounds.
A “weapons” squad is all I’ve ever wanted out of this game. SL, 2 gunners, 2 motormen, and an engineer to build up emplacements I like your recommendations, and think they would work well
I think it would work better if they were broken up into two separate squads just for the sake of coordination and communication, but I see where you are coming from. Thanks for commenting!
If I have not commented on something in the video that means I have agreed with gerbatron. In fact I agree with a lot of what he’s saying and it’s what I’ve been proposing for years. Thank you so much for making this video! Scenario A: Mortar ammo is only resupplied fully via the crewman respawning at the HQ. If they redeploy at an outpost or garrison they do not get resupplied. Alternatively only garrisons can resupply them and not outposts. Better yet though is to make it so ammo can only be resupplied by a jeep. Also add a 3rd man to the squad. No we need to deepen the games mechanics and skill along with its immersion and realism. Making it so the time to impact is different based on the angle and distance is something that should already be in the game. Radius and damage dispersion: It should increase via rate of fire. So if you just fire one shot like every 20 seconds then it should almost be pinpoint accurate with a radius of like 5m but increasing the quicker you fire up to around 30m. Alternatively you could have the different mortars have different dispersions. Light mortar = 10m. Medium Mortar = 20m. Heavy Mortar = 30m. Damage radius could also increase Also mortars really shouldn’t use supplies, nor should HMG’s when they get added. Just make it so they can be placed but you have to worry about ammo over supplies. It just creates too many issues. Loadouts: We need to follow more historical loadouts. We already have way too many automatics and semi-automatics. Give the Section leaders what they would have had, carbines and standard rifles, and give the mortar men their standard rifle and nothing else. They shouldn’t be getting more aggressive loadouts because that’s not what they’re for. Leave that to the infantry. Cooperation Mechanics: Yes please! Having a “buddy” system like helldivers is a fantastic idea and should be introduced for a lot of other crew served weapons like MG’s, Bazookas, etc. Having it start with mortars would be great. All members of the mortar squad should be able to control every spot on the mortar though since it makes more sense gameplay wise and realism wise since every member of the mortar squad would have been trained on how to use it SPG’s and Mortars should have their own individual ammo with other balances put in place. Resources as a whole could use some changes anyways.
If this game is serious about a future pacific theater expansion mortar squads should be a priority. Spg's are a good replacement for arty and I like the idea of an artillery barrage as a commander action.
What I'm thinking is that, we should let mortar teams be a three man squad instead of two but keep it as 2 maximum allowed squads, or 1 maximum instead if 12 is still too much. The reason I suggest 3 is because it will remove the risk of Squad leader being able to run around planting garrys everywhere. A Squad Leader with SMG, Smokes, first aid, melee, watch, and binoculars. Mortar man with standard issue rifle, mortar, first aid, and melee. Supplier with 25 supplies as suggested, standard issue rifle, grenades, melee, and first aid. And another reason why I think 3 man squad is so that the mortar team will have a loader and a gunner position similar to AT guns. The gunner aims and shoots the mortar, with the loader ready to launch it on the gunner's command. Now, I'm not saying this is foolproof, and I kind of thought of this on the spur of the moment so I know this logic has flaws.
@@Rubingamer80 Two people crew the mortar, the squad leader focuses on the map and lines of communication, and protects his crew. And also not be overly op with the mortar being able to be spammed by a single guy.
@@Rubingamer80 Sorry, 2 crew man the gun is the mortar guy and the supplier. The squad leader uses his binoculars, communications, and protecting his crew. And I'm well aware there's no loader, but it is not like the dude is actually going to load the thing. He would have this animation where he's holding the mortar at the ready and then when the gunner fires, the "loader" drops the mortar into it and launches. It's more of a balance mechanic than a historic accuracy. It's supposed to prevent the one guy manning it from being able to dump a lot of mortars quickly.
I was missing you, hope you've been having a good summer; i like the mortar squad idea (getting rid of the arti pieces), up to 3 mortar squads x team made out of 3 men, a SL that places the blueprint, drop/built the mortar base and place 15rnds and a small sandbags wall costing 50 supplies like an AT gun, the gunner that builds the mortar tube and add other 15rnds and then the loader that places/bild the bipod and add the last 15rnds; the crew armed with carbines and the SL with an SMG and a pistol/revolver. About the SPGs... i think that 2 x team costing 100 of ammunition and having 60 rnds may be good, but idk how to balance the SPGs in the overall picture.
An idea to add another layer to SPGs, make munition nodes their rearm points. 1. It encourages SPGs and engineers to work together and for SPG positioning to be somewhat locked. 2. This wouldnt pull from resource nodes, but rather change the location of rearming for them. Making taking out nodes a way to directly disrupt them. 3. Encourages smart positioning of nodes, perhaps updating them with advances and refreshes node hunting as a result
if i had to choose i would go with scenario A so you dont get a couple of mortar team that just drains the resources without a care. However i would suggest a blend of 2x mortar teams with a bazooka like mortar with their own ammo and a range of 600m, the shells fired have a smaller blast area and smaller dispersion, and SPG vehicles for tank teams with their own ammo, range of 700-800m, bigger dispersion but bigger blast area. how much ammo the spg and mortar team would have is hard to say but around 20-30 max with a mix of HE,smoke,ILL shells That way you got options for small fast moving arty and heavy slow moving with both having theur pros and cons
Initial mortar coating 50res great idea. Range no more than 600 meters, I know that looks short on the map but a mortar team would have to commit to the move and rebuild and would emphasize teamwork where other squads set up new defensive positions for them. Upgrades would be great, again to include more teamwork, but I would say only increase the damage and accuracy and then maybe reload time. Have first mortar have a certain amount of round deviation that grows over distance, not by much but enough that firing at max range isn't consistent. Reduce round to target time to at least 14 seconds, that a long time in a firefighter and the rounds are smaller and traveling less of a distance. Doesn't make sense to have the same delay as a howitzer.
I would take the supplies away from the squad leader. Just make deploying the mortar a 2- or 3- minute cooldown, halved near a munitions node, instantly reset when resupplying from expl ammo box. Both scenarios should deplete munitions rather than on-player ammo. If we're set on using supplies.. make it 10 supplies and give the SL just 10. That way even with both mortars you can't place a garrison. Both players should get a hammer--making it easier to build defenses may encourage mortar positions to be more static. The mortar OPs should have much longer CDs than standard infantry (with the same reset-on-pickup and sector loss mechanics). Mortars should be able to be placed in the blue only (not even the unlocked red), with special consideration to the start of Offensive: if you have no blue after 15 minutes, you can place mortars in the first sector. Mortars should be able to fire into HQ, but only damage "superlight" class vehicles. Give them 500m of range (which is the render range for infantry) else increase infantry render range and mortar range to 600m. Make "artillery barrage" a command ability; a 20-shot salvo over 30 seconds with 60m of dispersion costing 450 munitions and the same cooldown as the bombing run. I don't think SPGs should be in the game at all. They present too many challenges where the best solutions are niche and not familiar to the game's current design.
the recon-arty loop is the reason i dont even see people use arty anymore, because they just know they are bound to get spawn camped. this is good video, i really like the ideas
I liked a lot of your points, and as far as how the mortar should work, I agree, but I feel like it should be a secondary weapon, but with a deployment timer like supplies, which should give more incentive to defend the mortar, and the mortar man should only carry 15 rounds, and then the mortar officer should have an explosive ammo box, because in a real situation, they would’ve obviously split the ammo due to weight, and your ideas on the self propelled guns made sense, and I feel like they should not be capable of moving fire from the main gun, and should maybe have an mg usable by the tank commander to help counter enemy infantry, since there would be no coax
i think it would be interesting to make two 3 man "emplacement teams". squad leader, support/ammo bearer, and engineer. you could add different buildables from the normal engineer, as well as new ones like a mortar pit, an hmg emplacement, move the at gun to this team from the normal squads, sniper/watch towers, etc. maybe limit the number of weapon based buildables to one per engineer, either mortar, HMG, or AT gun. this squad leader cant build red zone garrisons for balance, but the entire squad gets building speed bonuses for all structures, like how tank crewman can repair vehicles faster. this would add a nice team support/defense focused squad that the game sorely needs.
man it is sad that u don’t have more subs by now, when u put so much effort into ur videos. I hope RUclips’s gets its head out of its ass and quits shadow banning u
I think it should be portable light mortars, and have maximum range of 200m/250m. And the gameplay should be moving with the infantry and supporting them where thwy go. Blast radius can be similar to grenade or a bit wider. And resupply is only possible by going back to base to avoid spamming. And maximum of 2 mortar squads per team. Regarding the accuracy, should the same 25m radius, it wont be OP since the blast radius is smaller. And the spawn camping. I think T17 should rework spawn protection for that. For example, if an enemy is close to any HQ, the enemy should be highlighted on the map. And spawn protection/invulnerability & invisibility be turned off if the player fires a shot or goes outside the spawn radius. Say 100m from the HQ spawn.
I think the mortars should be scenario A not B. with the first loadouts being smaller mortar. And the last the largest. To replace the 3 arty guns and the six personnel it takes to run. 3 squads mortar. 2 person squad. Range 700 or 800 m I think you should be able to shoot into sector B and I but not A and J. So you don’t get spawn hit but I think it should be able to hit the cap sector on the last point. Arty should be commander ability. Run on munitions. That balances the resources. The node system needs fixing. Adding new vehicles and buildable things that use resources without adding more resources limits the game.
The easiest implementation would be an arty barrage commander ability. Three-five rounds in a semi-random area of effect with a cool down, a bit similar to katyusha but with less munitions drain. This would also allow the commander to use smoke barrages to better effect because you wouldn’t get people just sitting in arty to kill farm. Basically anything that drains munitions but isn’t a commander ability is a pain.
Loved your ideas and they are probably better than mine. My idea is keep the main big arty in the same spot but if its destroyed by a satchel or tank its a 15 or 20 minute cool down before it can be repaired again or even placed down by the commander as an ability. Add mortars as a class unlock for maybe support, engineer, or anti tank. Have it be at a higher class level like 8. Have it be similar to the anti tank gun as a buildable for 25-100 supplies depending on the type and have a limited amount of ammo maybe 15 or 20 rounds that can be refilled once with explosive ammo like bazookas. Have it be a 5 min cool down before putting another one down with 2.5 min if near a munitions node. I like your idea of upgrading the mortars but an alternate would to have anti tank mortar class be like a field howitzer needing 100 supplies, support mortar being a smoke or flare only mortar for 25, and engineer mortar being the typical small anti infrantry mortar. Idk just made all of this up but i think more ideas are a good thing, you can take pieces of each.
Honestly having both would be great for diversity and both are definitely far superior to the current system. Add mortar squads first then like 6 months later once theyve made some balancing changes to mortars add the SPG
Arty is already stupid powerful if used correctly and are given the proper information. Mortars just allow squads (or they might just give a dedicated mortar squad) to spam fire an objective to abysmal proportions. But I agree with your assessment on arty battery’s. Maybe make the arty we have more accurate to reduce spam firing an entire sector and make mortars the new spam fire, but can’t be used past a certain point to keep spam fire.
Mortar range should be no more than 600m. If it's too long you will end up with basically the same gameplay loop as now - running whole map to take out 2 gus, who will just respawn 2 secons later.
@@Lavourrin Yeah that’s something to consider. They could build anywhere in that 600m range though. My concern for having it be shorter would be that the mortar team would never get to fire more than a couple rounds before getting sniped. Thanks for the feedback!
Instead of Mortar Squads make them Heavy Weapons Squads: -Give then the ability to build AT guns, mortars, and a heavy machine guns and take the AT gun off the AT infantry. 3 member squad of an SL, Weapons Specialist, and Ammo Carrier with a limit of 2 or 3 squads. -SL is identical to the regular SL's. -Specialist builds the different weapons but can only build one of whatever kind at a time. -Ammo carrier has a supply box big enough to build the weapons and an ammo box that must be dropped near the emplacement for it to fire. Ammo box would be a small version of the current jeep and commander ammo drops, but all of them could be used to feed the emplacement as well as within a short range of a Munitions Node. I think this ammo method would create a broader meta where now engineers have to think more about where nodes get built and give Munitions Nodes an added functionality that only Manpower Nodes have right now. The main bottle neck here would be supplies to build different weapons (standard 5 min cooldown) and ammo to fire the weapons. A team that works together on this could be devastating but only if the entire squad plus the commander PLUS the regular squads actually work together. Recon is going to be responsible for hunting these emplacements, garrisons, troop concentrations, and nodes. As part of this I would cut out the current arty set up all together. No guns manned by players at all. Instead make it a commander ability with a cooldown half of that of the bombing run. A strike would saturate an area with a salvo rounds from the battalion artillery for either a certain number of rounds or a certain amount of time with the shells acting just like they do now. This way arty is used more as a strategic asset while the mortars are more tactical.
Commander should be able to allocate a type of deployable heavy weapon to a squad that requests it for costs in fuel and munitions, for example. 50 hmg and mortar
I do think a squad system overhaul would be a lot cooler. Like 3 Man machine gun teams (Loader, Gunner, and the backup rifleman gunner), and things like the mortar squads that others have mentioned as well.
for mortars i would try and simplify the implementation by just making it a new unlock for an already existing role such as the automatic rifleman who only gets 2 loadouts (Germany gets 3) or just making it another role in the standard squad. (we didn't need a whole new separate squad/unit for the AT gun loadout we certainly wouldn't need one to set a mortar on the ground) No supplies required to place them down, rather the mortar goes on cooldown similar to supports supply box or various roles ammo boxes. So once you place it that's where it will stay for the next few minutes. mortars will have a set amount of shots that cannot be resupplied. Only when a new mortar is place are they resupplied. Nothing crazy, maybe 10. The range sounds good at 6-700ft. But I say place it wherever the hell you want that isn't past the enemy back line. If you want to waste shots firing into the enemy's HQ go ahead, they instantly become duds/do nothing past the line, and you still risk giving away your position/ wasting your few shots. U.S. would get the M2 60mm, Germany would get the 5cm Granatwerfer 36, Britain could get the 2-inch (51mm) mortar and the ussr could get a lend-lease M2 60mm. These were all relatively light weight, and easily carried by 1 person.
I think the best option would be the SPG's. Making them cost a decent bit of ammo to spawn and be reloadable like tanks. Id prefer if you could use them like a normal tank too, but much more risky because of the open top design. Enemy recon would also be rewarded by tracking them down due to the resource sink needed to spawn them and also intern be punished by letting the SPG just freely fire away.
At this point in HLL's life I stand by the argument that T17 will give the illusion that they listen to community feedback, but they never truly will. Do what Squad 44 does and that is have a class you can pick within the infantry dquad that carries a light mortar.
i like your idea of the mortar squad but id like to see it implemented in a different way. i think it would be cool if the mortar had a range of 800 meters but could only be placed in the first 4 grids. that eliminates hq camping. i also think that the mortar squad of two guys should rely on each other. the sqaud leader would have mortar ammo and the other member of the mortar team would carry the mortar. the mortar ammo would only have around 5 mortar shells. the mortar ammo would be regenerated in the same amount of time it takes to blow through the original 5 mortar shells if only one person fires the mortar and switches spots to reload it. now we have a team that depends on each other to do the job
Make arty shells more expensive, but give commander the ability to enable/disable the guns. And/or make them have an overheat mechanic instead of just a timer. Or maybe give each hq guns and commander can activate or supply them using commander ability (25 shells to north HQ for x munitions)
if you give the 2man team the ablility to supply and build or if it is a handheld, 400m is lots. they will move around constantly. if its more like you need to use a truck or a support from another squad then your range of 800 makes more sense.
Tbh I'd just give the support class a mortar specialist role and cap it that you can only build 2 or 3 at any given on the map per team and then getting the "team already has maximum number of.." just like nodes. Then if your position gets overrun you have to dismantle the mortar which for the sake of convenience could be done via the map like commander can dismantle garrisons. Firing the mortar spends munitions resource just like current cannons. Or perhaps that falls to the squad leader as it would be part of a ordinary infantry squad. This way you ease your struggle with access to supplies and have multiple potential spotters in your squad who might be otherwise fighting on the frontline. And as always you can just lock the squad with 2 guys if u want to play as separate mortar only squad. Of course it could be a little strange having random machine gunners and riflemen running about in same squad but on the other hand...this is just the way the ary works rn. Also I think building mortar pits should have some squad locked cooldown and the pits can be destroyed or dismantled by the enemy(slow) if they manage to capture the location as such giving the recon teams a chance to hinder your fire support for a period of time if succesful. Alternatively give this role to recon teams and the building costs no supplies but has cooldown and unit cap instead. As for range Im bit 50-50. On the other hand I too think they should not reach enemy HQ area but otherwise I'm kinda ok with em reaching the entire map and being buildable anywhere - even on enemy territory. If you are nuts and wanna take that risk then gl. You as artyman now have more tactical options but if you're careless you're now in danger from more than just recon teams.
I agree arty should go. I doubt they will implement it the same as S44. HLL has always tried to do things a little different just for the sake of it. I wouldn't be upset at all if they did it like S44 though. Only problem I would have is that in S44 any infantry can operate the mortar. At least I'm pretty sure that's how it works. In HLL I think only the mortar squad members should be able to operate it. Thanks for your comment!
@@GebatronGaming unless S44 changed their system it was a squad slot that operates the mortar. One guy in each squad, subject to how many other specialist roles are already active in that squad, can select to carry a mortar. I’m hoping they go this route. Thanks for the info and your video. Hoping these things arrive soon.
Right. One person in the squad can build it, but after that any infantry player can operate it. Personally, I don't want the mortar included in regular squads because I think you'd end up with either too many mortars or you'd have to limit how many can be built depending on how ammo is implemented. It seems to work better in S44 because ammo is limited and ranging is difficult. HLL let's players very easily range because pings and marks all have distances on them. I think S44 is a great example and the devs should examine that system, but I don't think it would translate well to HLL.
@@GebatronGaming never knew others could use the mortar after the player who equips it died. Learn something every day. I agree they shouldn’t be used by anyone but specific players but still hope they make their way to the squad level. Again, thanks and cheers.
I do not know why this was not mentioned. But Post Scriptum/Squad 44 has the option of building mortars (81mm) and have handheld small caliber mortars (60mm). There is normally 2 light mortarmen permitted by the team. I would have one mortar squad of 4, similar to the Logi squad seen in PS/S44 but slightly converted for HLL. This way you still have a "battery" of sorts. The roles consist of the following: 1 Officer - Retains normal kit configuration as normal Infantry Officers 1-3 Mortar Level 0 "Mortarman" - Standard Rifle, 2 Frags, Hammer, 2 bandages, 1 mortar wrench for 81mm mortar (25 supplies) can scroll to 120mm mortar (50/75 supplies), and a melee 1-3 Mortar Level 3 "Light Mortarman" - Standard Rifle, 2 Frags, Hammer, 2 bandages, 1 light 60mm mortar of 25 HE, 5 Smoke, melee. 1 Mortar Support - Similar to Infantry support but 25 supplies in order to not build Garrisons but at least 81mm mortars. I would swap class level 3's ammo box with a supply box and retain the explosive ammo box for light mortars. I wanted to add an "elite/experienced mortarman" with a light mortar and wrench for only the 81mm. But I do not know if it would heavily affect the balance of indirect fire support for class level 6 at the cost of frag grenades. As well, the heavier 120mm mortars are optional. The mechanics Buildable mortars 81mm - Range of 500m, 2 crew, gunner and assistant gunner (loader). If no assistant gunner available, gunner will switch to the assistant gunner position to place the mortar shell near the gunner's position to retain the "round in the chamber" reload animation current artillery has which switching between gunner and loader. Will have the option of preparing HE or smoke rounds at the cost of ammunition. For 81mm I believe HE should be 3 ammunition and smoke 4 ammunition across both 81 and 120. 120mm - Range 700, same crew and reload mechanics as the 81. For ammunition cost HE should be 5 and as mentioned smoke to be costing 4 ammunitions. Handheld mortars - Range of 300 or 400, Retains ammo in the weapon system of 16 HE and 8 Smoke rounds. Can be replenished by an explosive ammo box. Artillery - 2 new commander abilities Artillery Salvo - 4 shots (small dispersion), 150 munitions, 5-minute cooldown Artillery Barrage - 16 shots (medium dispersion), 300 munitions, 10-minute cooldown Or go the steel division off map artillery of having hastily prepared barrage with a dispersion of 125m 8-minute cooldown, rushed 100m dispersion 12-minute CD,, and prepared 50-75m dispersion with 16-minute CD.
I’d be interesting to see different factions have different styles of spg. The Germans could have lightly armoured long range vehicles which behave like artillery whilst the soviets could have slower, more heavily armoured and more inaccurate assault guns like the SU-122/-152. Or even katyusha trucks.
Finding a guy, who tells you that he got shot at by an MG42 in Game is obvious under HLL content. Finding a Balaclava, which got shot by an MG42 in real life, while complaining less about it, than his in game counterparts, is remarkable. Stay safe Brother. PS: I've never watched a video of you, while being on the toilet
Do it asymmetrical! My take: Allies... Have 2x 3man mortar squad. Have them only able to fire supplied shells. Have them available to set up without supplies (like MG) and three rounds in hand. Have the 3rd man carry an ammo crate with up to twenty mortar only shells in it. Five minute cool down. 8 round port minute. Have a 460m range (take the hit if you can't stay mobile and hidden!) Wikipedia on 2 inch mortas: Rate of fire 8 rounds per minute Effective firing range 500 yd (460 m) The Germans get the mobile gun Hummel, which has a 100-1000m range, but has to rely on dialed in coordinates like the artillery and a decreasing accuracy at long range. Maximum 40 shells before it has to return to base to reload, and vulnerable to any AT our light armour. Remove artillery... Have it as an off-map function for 20 shells over 60 seconds over a 50m radius area. For 100 munitions, cool down 10 minutes. Russians, not sure. Haven't researched. But keep the game asymmetric, and ally mortas the light, small, flexible squads - with German armour the bigger stronger mobile which makes a loud noise and is vulnerable to AT and ally armour
I love to see much of what I've argued for years on Reddit in this video, especially the first part. I hope that this video helps to make people understand that artillery gun destruction solves nothing and would only lead to artillery to effectively be removed from the game anyway. All it takes is a recon tank raiding mid HQ and you have a problem. One argument I often made is that rocket sniping would become much more valuable (or do we seriously feel that a weapon that can penetrate the armor of our heavy tanks couldn't damage the guns?). It's just a trick shot but people trained in it can fairly reliably kill artillery from around mid-point with AT rockets. A cool and quite impressive ability but I'd hate to see that become the meta. The mortars I'd do much like you said (as in the AT gun equivalent), though with some differences. I'd like to see the mortar structure to serve as the OP and be dismantlable. I'd see the officer as the builder and his squaddie as the supplies provider. I would only deal with multiples of 50 though. It's very annoying to go for supplies to build a garrison only to notice that someone built one hedgehog and made that stack unusable. A 25 supply cost would increase those instances when supplies are used from an external source. The point of it becoming a garrison building unit could be countered by not giving the officer a watch, only a wrench. That means they are relying on their team to have the garrison network up in case their mortar position gets destroyed or would make use of the free transports to reposition. I wouldn't add a requirement for both players to be present in order to work the mortar but a two seat solution like artillery would work. When reloading is effectively firing, you'd still have a fire rate advantage when both are manning it. Otherwise the officer could work the mortar and his support deals with defense or proactively put down supplies for someone else to build a garrison. One central issue about the recon-arty loop isn't so much the predictability of the position (once the indirect fire option starts blasting you can easily home in on it anyway) but the range. Recon squads are currently the only ones able to reliably deal with artillery because they can have their OPs at locations where they have reasonably easy access. Bringing the indirect fire much closer to the frontlines opens up anti artillery duty for other unit types. That's why I'd give mortars a max range of 500m, so one and a half sectors. The short range makes the positioning of the mortar structure a strategic choice on the risk-reward layer. Get closer for more target opportunity but at the risk of being more exposed. I should mention that arguing ranges from a realism perspective is pretty pointless. Having artillery that close to the front and as such exposed to capture and sabotage would have been gross negligence as they had effective ranges of over 10km... so if you were to allow the realism argument, then artillery shouldn't be on the map in the first place anyway. Not being able to fire into HQ poses a problem, which for buildable structures could be solved relatively organically by restricting placement to the first three sector lines (perhaps even splitting the mid sector down the middle). Admittedly it's still somewhat artificial but no less than garrison and OP placement restrictions. With self propelled artillery it's a lot more difficult. Not being able to fire into a certain area seems like a jarring restriction, similar to a wall (like the one during the warm up period). Other problems include the vehicle limit... which as you said could simply be raised but there are reasons it exists beyond gameplay. More vehicles (and wrecks) mean a greater impact on perfomance. They'd also be competing with armor for fuel and a decrewed SPG can easily become wasted resources. Plus I can already see the open topped models fleeing after a sniper shot, cue the Benny Hill theme. I've warmed up to SPGs a bit, as they'd give recon tanks one more thing to do well but I still don't see solutions to those problems. I do love the idea of being able to upgrade mortars... I've actually never thought of that.
Until we get any major additions like mortars and mobile arty, first implement your idea of a separate dedicated artillery squad using the current artillery system. Nothing kills a game more than when a random soldier is wasting munitions when the commander is saving up for a bombing run. You had footage of tankers manning the artillery guns too.
I propose a new squad type (mortar crew) with a maximum of 3 people per squad and 3 crews per team. One crew becomes available only after there is a total of 9 total infantry squad players then another at 18 and a final at 27. This is because accounting for tankers, recon and commander, plus 9 mortarmen, that could make up half the team. If there wasn't this restriction, a server could be half full without a single infantry squad member which could be very frustrating if your team is going up against a team that is all infantry Each crew will contain a squad leader, a mortar operator and an ammo bearer. A new vehicle, the munitions jeep, will be added specifically for this squad The squad leader functions as normal except I don't believe they should be able to place garrisons for reasons I'll explain later The operator has a deployable and pick-upable mortar as their secondary weapon that can be placed and replaced like an outpost but with a slightly longer placing time. The operator spawns with and has a maximum number of HE shells so that they can fire for 40 seconds back to back, and the same number of smoke shells. These can only be replenished by an ammo bearers munitions crate, from a munitions node or from the munitions jeep and do not replenish naturally The ammo bearer can place a crate with a maximum number of HE shells so that they can be fired for 90 seconds back to back, and the same number of smoke shells. If the ammo bearer is within, lets say 10m of both their crate and/or munitions jeep, and the mortar, they continuously replenish the oeprators inventory so the operator doesnt have to pack up the mortar each time to get more ammo. Once placed, the munitions crate can be replenished at a munitions node, the only way of actively replenishing it. Otherwise it takes 5 minutes to replenish passively i.e. without interacting with anything. I also believe the ammo bearer should be capable of building nodes for reasons I will explain later The munitions jeep can carry a maximum number of HE shells so that they can be fired for 120 seconds back to back, and the same number of smoke shells. This can only be replenished at a munitions node or from the spawn resupply point and does not replenish naturally. The munitions jeep is a commander call in, costing a moderate amount munitions (since more will be available if arty is removed, though I assume an artillery commander call in would be added too so soms tweakibg will probably be needed). It can only be mounted by mortar squads and seats up to 3. My overall goal here isn't just to solve how mortars should be implemented. Its also to encourage other things that aren't often done in public games, these being building nodes and defending points. By limiting the crew to only an outpost as a spawn option organic to them and allowing the ammo bearer to build munitions nodes, you encourage one of two things. If the squad doesn't have a jeep, then you encourage the whole squad to build, fire from and defend the node(s), creating an engaging side objective for recon and attacking infantry squads by making the mortar crews into honey pots for attackers, increasing their defensive value (because the attackers are incentivised to attack something that likely isn't on the main objective, giving early warning). If the mortar crew does have a jeep, they are incentivised to drive the jeep to and from the node and move around often, providing a natural patrolling motion, increasing the chance of contact and hence fun. If a garrison was easily available, I expect SLs would build a garrison on the node then take their crew somewhere remote and set up an OP then have the ammo bearer drop the box, redeploy to garrison to resupply then redeploy to OP rinse and repeat. This is boring for the ammo bearer and doesn't incentivise any movement or meaningful combat Finally, I believe these should be small squads rather than a role in a larger squad for all of the above reasons but also because artillery users typically join larger sqauds then proceed to sit at spawn most of the game, depriving the squad of potentially an important class role as well as a fighter so it naturally encourages more cohesive squads to make this a separate squad Thanks for reading, I want credit if this gets taken to development :D If I made any mistakes, let me know and we can discuss
I think it would be best to have the engineer class be it’s own squad of 3 players. In those 3 squads it would be the Engineer, radioman, and mortar specialist. The engineer wouldn’t have all gadgets (stopwatch, binoculars, wrench, hammer and torch) and it’s second load out of sapper would be (stopwatch, binoculars AP mines, AT mines, satchels) and for the Allies field engineer would be (stopwatch, Binoculars, grenades, smokes, and torch). Radioman would be like support class with the addition of a radio gadget that hooks nodes to the garrisons. Chain linking nodes to garrisons would in effect provide area of rearmament at the front lines (without having to place nodes at the front lines). Lastly and more importantly the mortar specialist would be like the AT class standard issue would be a deplorable mortar (without supply’s) with a short range of distance and a limited explosive that can only be replenished by explosive ammo. Second load out would be a buildable mortar that can only be place at HQ or in a defensive point. Lastly the mortar specialist should have a grenade launcher as their last load out and should be for small arms fire
I don't think getting rid of arty completely is the way to go, i think that once a mortar and spg squad is introduced the cycle will be disrupted as recon would have more targets to hunt down rather than just camping arty. They would definitely have to kill the arty occasionally but they'd also need to shift to track down the other two units. The current arty would remain an easy fixed location for any team member to use but is a known threat.
Best option is to move artillery as a commander ability that could be called more often and have mortar squad created since they can be more mobile and avoid recon squads. Also, fixing the entire game would be a good start
My only issue with the SPG is that if you can park it far away in safe enemy territory. Theres no way friendly armour can take out that tank without getting destroyed by enemy infantry before they can see the SPG as any good enemy SPG team wont give line of sight to the objective. And seen as recon cant carry a satchel (and i agree they shouldnt), its gonna be very hard to take out an SPG once its in the game. Will be rubbish being an AT in a squad being told to go and find the SPG miles in its own spawn without being able to build an outpost in enemy territory to rely on. Im not sure what the fix could be there tbf. Maybe that SPG once found by recon can have a commander precision strike called in that should kill them in a one hit. Thats the best ive got. Needs to be a big cooldown on them if they get destroyed. Ar least then recon can keep busy through the game tracking them down and relaying back.
I think we will just have accept mortars can fire into the nocap zones. There wont be a system that isnt absurd. Maybe servers should get a option to set limits from map edge if they choose to do so.
I should've brought that up, but was too far into making the video to add it in. I was mostly speaking about warfare as that's the mode I think most people play and like. I was thinking that Offensive could keep their arty guns the way it works now while Skirmish mode wouldn't get any of it. What would you like to see?
what if they added mortars but also kept arty... but they added an arty section like recon, and armour has, and if you are in arty squad you can put an op anywhere like recon does, and choose to either take out enemy arty or shoot your own arty. i think they should also have motars tho too. but if you had an disgnated arty squad that could deal with arty while recon goes back and does their own thing. personally i don't mind the arty loop currently because there are 2 recon squads and you only need one person too deal with arty, and the other 3 people can hunt for garrisons. but i do think they should add mortars, but don't think they are coming soon.
The mortar should me man portable because that’s how mortars worked, carrying it should be the go to method. If the ammo is tied to ammo boxes, the secondary load out for the mortar NCO should have an explosive ammo box. Give the mortar man 30 or 40 shells per load out and if they are near nodes let him resupply his ammo box and drop a new one that replaces the old one after a few minutes. I would make it a 3 man element (team limit of two mortar teams), spotter and two mortar men so aiming and firing happens faster if it’s a full group. One man has the mortar + sight and the other has the base plate.
I would also add the SPG leaving the option for the driver to switch to an MG to help cover while the other two load and fire, keep the ammo organic to the vehicle just like a tank. Additionally, an artillery strike call in should still be added to the commander’s options. Having an on call bomber but no artillery is absurd. Both should be available with different times/costs.
I understand getting rid of the artillery, but I think it should stay with a mortar squad and SPG so that you keep it unpredictable on where they are shooting.
For the SPG. I don’t think it should be an armor squad exclusive. It should be like the half track that anyone can use it. It should have its own ammo. Not use munitions.
How about in scenario B the mortar squad leader can place the mortar but cannot build it as they do not have a hammer. Only mortar squad members can hop on mortars maybe?
@GebatronGaming I may have not thought it through. I thought it could be selected in the vehicle section with the munition symbol saying 50 and fuel symbol reading 400 for example.
They should have two support squads. 6 men, but they dont have the assault classes, they have SL, engineer, support, mortar, 2 riflemen. Mortarman can place 2-3 mortar tubes that are built but should need surrounding supplies to fire. The mortars should cost between 2-5 supply a shot and boom you got mobileand defensive mortar squads, now you can expect actual defenders in a public match cause they are setting up mortar stations. For vehicle arty i dont think it needs to exist in game, especially with how small the maps are it would be a huge waste of resources
With the mobile arty tanks would there be an issues if they full send to point and use the howitzer as an offensive weapon or just rush enemy HQ’s like you can currently with other tanks - on the supply box topic I think it would be beneficial for a new design of the supply create with be in need for teams to identify the difference between the current 50 supplies and 25 supplies with new reskins and running animations - can also allow for hints with other players in trying locate mortar squads
Well, they'd have to treat mortars and arty the same they do current arty by not allowing them to fire into the enemy HQ. They'd also not be allowed into the enemy HQ just like how you're not allowed out of bounds. I agree that a different supply box would be great! Thanks!
@@GebatronGaming doesn’t really solve the issue of tanks going to objectives and using the howitzer as a main gun - unless like u mentioned having exposed roof is like a high risk high reward kind of thing with crew being easily killable - With issue around HQ’s could be solved by adding a blocked barrier that can be seen displayed in the warm up faze of the game with it only effecting that particular tank sqaud
@@jaidonauditore2303 Your concern is that the SPGs will rush into active strongpoints and use their guns in the direct fire role vs indirect fire role? Am I understanding this correctly? If I am then I'd think that problem would take care of itself. Mostly open topped vehicles with thin armor and no MGs would make that a suicide mission. Even if they were successful for a short time then that would be well within their prerogative.
Get rid of arty, make it commander ability. Enplaced mortars once you have one cap locked. Idk I thought it was a good idea 3 years ago, still makes sense to me
I prefer a 3 man squad platform. Squad lead Mortar man Support dude The squad lead can coordinate with leadership and move forward making targets using binos. Mortar man runs the mortar. Support dude handles supplies and ammo, and can offer protection for either the squad lead or mortar guy. For the motar's range I think your suggestion is sensible, maybe the game prevents the mortar being built where it would be in range of the final objective.
I love this mortar idea, but I see several problems coming. The examples are good, but the GM should not have a supply chest with him, because that would mean that he could build garrisons himself without having to rely on the supporter. I would keep the artillery because it is essential.Mortars and mobile artillery should be a weakened form of artillery. I like the idea of damaging the artillery, but I think there will be a problem with the artillery still being camped. In World War II many mortars were used, which decided many battles, but in my opinion there should only be a few in the game.
The problem with SPG's its that if you are found, how HLL works, probably you won't be able to depress the cannon to engage the enemy. I would hate that so much I may unistall the game.
Why it could be buildable? If we can have it in our inventory. Every mortar squads had them. So that's the main reason to have mortars - it's mobility. They are small and quick to use. Mortar shots - after shooting they moving to another distance, the mortar squads worked like this. This were not something big like PAKs or heavy artillery, it was in soldiers "inventory" like. P.S. it's a very good idea. And 1 more scenario - 2 usual infantry squads has mortar class, to not lose the people from the battlefield. Cause maps are huge and less people if we introduce mortar squad. Just add them to 2 infantry squads only, other lock. And the most important and the main role of the Mortar - mobility. Mortar is very good addition, but 1 question , how it will be used. + it’s double work with supplies. Why we would introduce whole squads from the battlefield, to build , drop supplies etc. if in real life it were also small arty which were carried by infantry. Scenario A for sure, fixes - no ammo after redeploy. + if somebody will use lots of ammo boxes - good work for recon, they must not stay and watch how it’s going on. They should find the mortar squad and destroy all ammo boxes. Jeep can have these ammo for Mortars. Scenario B - if have mortar ammo from the resources , it will always be not enough supplies + it will not stopped by anything in this game.
Thanks for commenting on Reddit too! I can see where mobility would be hampered by having to build the mortars. That's good feedback. I'll respond by saying it doesn't take more than 10s to build the AT gun the way it is so the actual construction isn't the problem. The problem would be potentially waiting on supplies. The main reason I favor the buildable scenario is simply for coordination. It would help keep the mortar squad working together vs just splitting up and each doing their own thing which is something you already see in recon squads. There are a couple problems with adding them to regular infantry squads. First is availability. If you are going to limit them to just 2 squads then why not single them out anyway. There currently is no other thing in the game that works that way. Second is communication. It would be very difficult for other squads to know what squads include the mortars. What if the squads they are in no longer need fire support and another squad in a different part of the map does? Does that squad then send their mortar guy 400m away from their OP and have to fight down one member? Is the player that finally got the mortar weapon they've wanted for 3 matches straight expected to abandon the role so a different squad can have it? In the video I say "taking 8 players away from the front vs taking 12 or more" when speaking about squad size, but keep in mind that arty already currently ties players up so it's not as big of a change as it may seem initially. Mobility should be a concern, but keep in mind that a 12cm mortar is less mobile than a 5cm mortar. While mortars are definitely more mobile than AT guns or artillery, it's not like setting them up is instantaneous. But great feedback and thanks a lot for adding to the discussion!
@@GebatronGaming so the best way in that situation- replace 1 recon squad to mortar squad. Here is the solution - we will not lose people on the frontline. 1 recon squad - 2 people and 1 mortar squad -2 people. But in real WW2 it always had 2 people in the squad. 1 mortar squad will be good, not to spam of mortar shells.
@@GebatronGamingOfficer can have ammunition box for Mortar, the cool-down of ammo boxes will be a limit for no spamming artillery. Mobility is also important cause in offensive squads will also need the smoke shells to the point etc.
I haven't played HLL in 2 years but I'm shocked they still didn't fix artillery and introduced mortars(or an other system to stop this stupid spawnkill gameplay).
Great video as usual Gabatron! I've put my best idea (and cheapest to implement :) ) in the repply to this comment. --> excellent ways to address this arty-recon issue, too many matches I am excited to play recon only to trek through the mud to play hide and seek with their spawn. --> Out in the field, being hammered by arty is one of the best, harrowing and most teambuilding experiences in HLL, I'd love to not lose it! Complex connandrum though. --> For Scenario 2, the 25 resource supply box would be almost the same as putting the mortar building on that same timer. --> Range wise, 500m-550m seems a sweetspot for me, as with the bigger ranges it would again become recon's job to deal with the Arty - and what the circle (excellent graphic by the way) doesn't show is that this range is deceptively longer if you do not use it diagonally. I would even be infavour of 300 meters if the mortar comes with some sandbags/fortification like the AT gun (unlikely for asthetics). --> I do not like special "map modifiers" as this game is complex enough already - but not all maps have the same "effective engagement range" for infantry. Remagen and El Alemain spring to mind here. --> Binoculars for the mortar SL. No or limited squad radio - it is supposed to be from the defense. --> Loader role seems obvious. Arty-SPG: Open top all the way :) but making an armoured, movable Arty cannon to sit in your own back line just makes even the recon team impotent to deal with it (and if you are a tank crew, you can just park 1 recon tank nearby to cover as people already do with Arty). Limited range to the SPG as well is the way to go there - and recon tanks/AT for hunting enemy artySPG as a new role?
The Cheapest fix for the recon-arty is a "trickle ammo" solution. As a resource, you get ~3 shells/min up to 24 maximum (possibly the trickle timer resets when firing). You can blow through those in a minute with 1-2 cannons when you need it (as if it is a more manual commander ability) and then revert back to reguar play for the remaining fill up time. Then regular play - and when called upon you can run the guns again. No interaction with nodes, and no interaction with recon squad needed, and sitting all game at arty will not give you much advantage.
why not give thwe mortar placement a cooldown? no supplies required. make it a 4-6min cooldown so they can hop around too much and you would want to try to defend you position a bit.
2 people per squad ! Replace it to the recon and will be good. 1 mortar and 1 recon squad. Mortar squads were not 3 people, it’s a small gun and doesn’t need the loader, the mortar guy loads it and shoot also. It doesn’t make sense 3 people.
I really want Arty out of the game. As it stands, it's either too oppressive to the whole team or just 2 guys. Either way, not fun. My vision for Mortar teams would be 1 squad of 3. SL would be a spotter, gunner would place and aim, and loader would carry explo ammo and fire the mortar. This would keep the disruption of front line players at a minimum while still maintaining some historical accuracy. Gameplay would go thus: Squad of 3 find a position, SL drops OP nearby as early warning of enemy nearby. Gunner drops the mortar similar to OP, 1 minute cooldown timer, halved when near munition node. No build time but not like a weapon bipod either. Loader drops initial explo ammo nearby which gives 30 rounds of ammo, 2.5 minute cooldown, shortened with nearby manpower node. Jeep and Commander Ammo drops provide 180 rounds if mortar is near enough. Gunner and loader start prepping the system, SL heads to front line to spot shell landings or stays to defend. Start firing away then. I do kinda like the idea of allowing supplies to be used to upgrade the mortar, this provides risk/reward for selecting a good spot and defending it. Upgraded mortars would provide larger explosive power per round of ammo used. At a cost not mentioned, but in next paragraph A couple points I think NEED to be touched on: Sound propagation and rate of fire. Locating mortar squads could be VERY easy or VERY hard depending on those 2 factors. We would need to find a balance on how much noise the mortars make and how fast you can shoot them. This is where the upgraded mortars could get some drawbacks though. In the earlier example, let's take a nice number of 20 rounds/minute for initial mortar. This provides 1 crucial thing: the loader's explo crate nearby only provides 1.5 minutes of continuous fire before you're out for 30 seconds or you don't spam shots to conserve ammo. Upgraded mortars could drop to 12-15 rounds per minute, providing continuous fire to reward good placement and defense. Regarding sound propagation I don't have any balancing other than upgraded would be louder than regular. I won't touch on SPG's. To me they feel like an awkward fit. Thoughts?
Forgot a couple other things. No placement in red zones as that would be weird. Small mortar has 500m range, large has 800m Both have shell landing time of 12 seconds I wouldn't be super concerned with being able to fire on enemy HQs as if it is just one squad they could only lock down HQ but then aren't doing much else. Small mortar can damage trucks and jeeps. 2 shot kill if direct hits. Large mortar adds ability to damage trucks and jeeps on splash, and everything else on direct hit only. This would help stop tanks camping when commander bomb is on cool down. Gunner can only have 1 of each mortar type deployed. I think that's everything.
i think you're too hung up on disallowing HQ fire. I say go ahead because in proper balanced games you are not going to use one of the only mortar squads or SPG's to spawn camp when your opponent occupys the middle flag or if they are pushed up even more. If an SPG goes off the beat path deep into enemy territory, they are losing proper team support and a light tank can just hunt them down easily
I think your observations are based on personal experience in public matches. Please take a look at the planning that goes into "higher" level competitive games where artillery is literally the game winning factor. There is a lot of preparation and execution which circumvents any of your attacks aside from a prolonged assault on artillery, and even in that case, you will lose objectives carrying it out due to manpower shortage on the objective. Additionally, your points are based on desires but worded as if Team 17 was in the process of implementing mortars, spgs, or any alternative to artillery. This is just simply not the case due to Team 17s malaise or general incompetence. I mean, if you need clickbaity names for things, it's one thing, but you haven't leaned in that direction before, why start now?
Yes I’m trying to make the game more interesting for a larger group of players and matches. That just so happens to be public matches. I don’t think that building up defenses that can include driving trucks onto obstacles to block shots from across the map is where we should be getting our cues to game design from. Competitive teams can find ways to make mortars and SPGs game winning factors. Not only that, but changes to this game loop and calls for mortars and SPGs have been going on in both communities for many years at this point. T17 has shown interest in changing this loop in the past. They spoke on this topic when doing their dev interview with Raz and TheFreshBakedGoods. What part do you consider to be click bait?
@@TheRusty4tw Well... yeah? You don't exactly get to make discussions if you don't have both the experience in matches AND know the game rules. It should be applied to the game in general and not because competitive players demands it. Artillery is frowned upon cause it takes away recon units from the battlefield that could be used to direct and make precise shots to take out key infantry that threatens your team's ability to push. That's generally artillery that takes up that threat so standard infantry are left dealing with high level threats like MGs and holed up defensive positions. Both teams are tired of arty being so out of the way. That's why this discussion is up.
@@GebatronGaming When I read the title of your video, "How Mortars & Mobile Artillery Will Work In Hell Let Loose", I immediately reacted by clicking, thinking - does this guy know something I don't? In the end, you just have baseless conjecture. Competitive teams will make all available options winning factors - that's their purpose. There is 0 indication that this game loop will change, with no evidence that mortars or SPGs will be implemented. Considering the less than stellar changes to the game since Team 17 picking up the title, their biggest change - a new mode - focuses on close combat, with graphical culling since implementation out past 250m. What would make you believe that longer ranged options(than 250m) are even on the table for Team 17?
@@USAFreewayROTF I don't think you have an accurate view of the game in general, as your assertions are in conflict with my experience. I'm not at all speaking for competitive players, but as a player who has played both public and competitive. Artillery is the highest threat, and defense of artillery is the highest priority - so high that defenses for artillery are meticulously planned for and occupy the majority of a competitive team's warm-up phase. Your syntax in the second paragraph doesn't make sense, as recon and artillery typically are individual units with combined purposes. This doesn't mean only recon can help artillery, or that only artillery responds to recon. The map marking system in addition to in-game and outside of game communication ensures smooth communication in a well-organized competitive team.
@@TheRusty4tw You're making it sound like I was talking about them working together. I was not. I was talking about retaliation; recon units against artillery. They spend the entire game camping artillery when they could be more practical in the battlefield instead of preventing artillery from being used. Or artillery racking up so many kills and hampering advances with little to no retaliation. That's not fair balance. Like aircraft for example, there's too much advantages and very little counter to them. Why do you think they're restricted to command orders instead of allowing players to control them?
Why not add mortars/mobile artillery and keep the artillery, but make them commander call ins that open the guns for 5 minutes for manual firing. That will limit the old gameplay loop and make artillery more strategic.
You can pretty much forget about asking for changes like this from this dev team. It's pretty clear they don't have nearly the amount of resources required to maintain the game let alone change core fundamentals of the game. This game will die within the next few years, let's hope squad 44 takes what this team failed at and does better.
Very well thought out proposals, Geb. I'm so tired of the artillery loop. They have so many options, but I have little faith in T17 listening to feedback or implementing things without breaking the game.
At a bare minimum, they could make artillery something server owners/admins could enable/disable, the next step would be to make it a Commander call-in, and the final iteration would be to give us mortar squads like you outlined.
@@sutro-311 I agree. Recon should be more involved in helping assist squads and taking out key infantry like mgs and whatnot. I know even recon squads are tired of camping artillery.
Thanks for adding to the discussion!
@@USAFreewayROTF level 10 sniper here and 3 out of 5 games are spent hiding in a bush near arty, its got to the point that if my SL wants to do that, I join Infantry instead. We have a high power scope and can change battles in minutes but instead im killing the same guy every 10 seconds point blank. Such a waste
@@razma20001 Precisely my point. We need Recon to be 100 percent engaged in the entire battle. Watching areas for nearby squads, taking out key infantry, or relaying information to the commander. Not holed up near artillery to stop a tool that's capable of destroying entire areas from being used.
I think blending your optuons makes the best sense and releasing things slowly. 1st, you could place current artillery across the HQs, one gun per. That would help get the ball rolling for interest and strategy. I like the idea of 2x2 mortar teams. But they don't need their own supplies, work with the commander or support/ supply truck to build an emplacement. Keep artilery until SPGs come out. Ammo used for mortars should be set and resupply should be by jeep which is under utilized. That way the mortar SL can grab a jeep to resupply leaving the mortarman time to still fire but slower. Range of 600-800 would be good and dependant on where you would allow them to be built to prevent firing on enemy HQs. Otherwise less is more with all the restrictions. SPGs could fire on HQs but the closer they are, the more likely they would just get taken out by a lone AT guy or scout tank which become even more playable then.
"No" - Team 17
MY personal proposal is turning recon squads into special weapons squads, so they have a spotter and the 2nd player could be a sniper, or a mortar. possibly other weapons. this way there's a choice to be made between dismantling enemy back lines or providing fire support.
I haven’t heard that idea before. That could be interesting! Thanks!
@@21thebeardedwonder good suggestion !
The best solution of this. It’s already max 2 people, so if rename recon to special weapon squad and add mortar unit, it automatically will give people the ability to use mortar or sniper roles
Ya eh have reconnaissance dets have mortars. Makes so much sense
@@HEYYAlex95 It actually makes more sense for the game itself, and we won't have to contribute more people to fulfill this role. The numbers would be the same and we're giving this squad more options.
We're already stretched as is currently. This would negate that.
A proposal on the Mortar Teams, because I personally like the idea of a small specialist team having the capability for a mobile artillery that has an explosive yield a little higher than a grenade, but less than current artillery.
3 man team: Team Lead, Mortarman, Ammo Barer
- Team lead is normal officer
- Mortarman is like an AT where he can have a mobile mortar with smaller yield, or a second class has a buildable field mortar
- Ammo barer tier 1 is basically like the Rifleman with a "mortar box" that drops a munitions box which consumes munitions, but is required to fire mortars, tier 2 is a mini support where he can drop a "mortar box" or a "mortar emplacement box" with the necessary 25 supplies to build the field mortar, and the mortar box still requires munitions to fuel the rounds.
Interesting! Thanks for adding to the discussion!
I don't think you'll get anyone just wanting to play ammo bearer.
Team lead can act as an FO (forward observer)
A “weapons” squad is all I’ve ever wanted out of this game. SL, 2 gunners, 2 motormen, and an engineer to build up emplacements
I like your recommendations, and think they would work well
I think it would work better if they were broken up into two separate squads just for the sake of coordination and communication, but I see where you are coming from. Thanks for commenting!
If I have not commented on something in the video that means I have agreed with gerbatron. In fact I agree with a lot of what he’s saying and it’s what I’ve been proposing for years. Thank you so much for making this video!
Scenario A: Mortar ammo is only resupplied fully via the crewman respawning at the HQ. If they redeploy at an outpost or garrison they do not get resupplied. Alternatively only garrisons can resupply them and not outposts. Better yet though is to make it so ammo can only be resupplied by a jeep. Also add a 3rd man to the squad.
No we need to deepen the games mechanics and skill along with its immersion and realism. Making it so the time to impact is different based on the angle and distance is something that should already be in the game.
Radius and damage dispersion: It should increase via rate of fire. So if you just fire one shot like every 20 seconds then it should almost be pinpoint accurate with a radius of like 5m but increasing the quicker you fire up to around 30m.
Alternatively you could have the different mortars have different dispersions. Light mortar = 10m. Medium Mortar = 20m. Heavy Mortar = 30m. Damage radius could also increase
Also mortars really shouldn’t use supplies, nor should HMG’s when they get added. Just make it so they can be placed but you have to worry about ammo over supplies. It just creates too many issues.
Loadouts: We need to follow more historical loadouts. We already have way too many automatics and semi-automatics. Give the Section leaders what they would have had, carbines and standard rifles, and give the mortar men their standard rifle and nothing else. They shouldn’t be getting more aggressive loadouts because that’s not what they’re for. Leave that to the infantry.
Cooperation Mechanics: Yes please! Having a “buddy” system like helldivers is a fantastic idea and should be introduced for a lot of other crew served weapons like MG’s, Bazookas, etc. Having it start with mortars would be great. All members of the mortar squad should be able to control every spot on the mortar though since it makes more sense gameplay wise and realism wise since every member of the mortar squad would have been trained on how to use it
SPG’s and Mortars should have their own individual ammo with other balances put in place. Resources as a whole could use some changes anyways.
If this game is serious about a future pacific theater expansion mortar squads should be a priority. Spg's are a good replacement for arty and I like the idea of an artillery barrage as a commander action.
Squad44 just had a massive update, including expending servers to 100 people 🎉
What I'm thinking is that, we should let mortar teams be a three man squad instead of two but keep it as 2 maximum allowed squads, or 1 maximum instead if 12 is still too much.
The reason I suggest 3 is because it will remove the risk of Squad leader being able to run around planting garrys everywhere.
A Squad Leader with SMG, Smokes, first aid, melee, watch, and binoculars.
Mortar man with standard issue rifle, mortar, first aid, and melee.
Supplier with 25 supplies as suggested, standard issue rifle, grenades, melee, and first aid.
And another reason why I think 3 man squad is so that the mortar team will have a loader and a gunner position similar to AT guns. The gunner aims and shoots the mortar, with the loader ready to launch it on the gunner's command.
Now, I'm not saying this is foolproof, and I kind of thought of this on the spur of the moment so I know this logic has flaws.
I think it's good feedback with a good perspective. Thanks for adding to the discussion!
3 people? Why? The third will watch the rest of the time to mortar guy and wait, in WW2 mortar squad always used 2 people only.
@@Rubingamer80 Two people crew the mortar, the squad leader focuses on the map and lines of communication, and protects his crew. And also not be overly op with the mortar being able to be spammed by a single guy.
@@USAFreewayROTF You said 3 man squad . And the loader. Do you know that mortar gun has no loader ?
@@Rubingamer80 Sorry, 2 crew man the gun is the mortar guy and the supplier. The squad leader uses his binoculars, communications, and protecting his crew.
And I'm well aware there's no loader, but it is not like the dude is actually going to load the thing. He would have this animation where he's holding the mortar at the ready and then when the gunner fires, the "loader" drops the mortar into it and launches. It's more of a balance mechanic than a historic accuracy. It's supposed to prevent the one guy manning it from being able to dump a lot of mortars quickly.
I love the ideas here. As you said it would mix things up and introduce some really interesting gameplay scenarios.
I was missing you, hope you've been having a good summer; i like the mortar squad idea (getting rid of the arti pieces), up to 3 mortar squads x team made out of 3 men, a SL that places the blueprint, drop/built the mortar base and place 15rnds and a small sandbags wall costing 50 supplies like an AT gun, the gunner that builds the mortar tube and add other 15rnds and then the loader that places/bild the bipod and add the last 15rnds; the crew armed with carbines and the SL with an SMG and a pistol/revolver. About the SPGs... i think that 2 x team costing 100 of ammunition and having 60 rnds may be good, but idk how to balance the SPGs in the overall picture.
An idea to add another layer to SPGs, make munition nodes their rearm points. 1. It encourages SPGs and engineers to work together and for SPG positioning to be somewhat locked. 2. This wouldnt pull from resource nodes, but rather change the location of rearming for them. Making taking out nodes a way to directly disrupt them. 3. Encourages smart positioning of nodes, perhaps updating them with advances and refreshes node hunting as a result
if i had to choose i would go with scenario A so you dont get a couple of mortar team that just drains the resources without a care.
However i would suggest a blend of 2x mortar teams with a bazooka like mortar with their own ammo and a range of 600m, the shells fired have a smaller blast area and smaller dispersion, and SPG vehicles for tank teams with their own ammo, range of 700-800m, bigger dispersion but bigger blast area.
how much ammo the spg and mortar team would have is hard to say but around 20-30 max with a mix of HE,smoke,ILL shells
That way you got options for small fast moving arty and heavy slow moving with both having theur pros and cons
Initial mortar coating 50res great idea.
Range no more than 600 meters, I know that looks short on the map but a mortar team would have to commit to the move and rebuild and would emphasize teamwork where other squads set up new defensive positions for them.
Upgrades would be great, again to include more teamwork, but I would say only increase the damage and accuracy and then maybe reload time.
Have first mortar have a certain amount of round deviation that grows over distance, not by much but enough that firing at max range isn't consistent.
Reduce round to target time to at least 14 seconds, that a long time in a firefighter and the rounds are smaller and traveling less of a distance. Doesn't make sense to have the same delay as a howitzer.
Easiest fix. Greatly increase munitions required for each arti shot. That way it would only be used sparingly.
This way nobody would play commander, as most people don't care about ressource management
I would take the supplies away from the squad leader. Just make deploying the mortar a 2- or 3- minute cooldown, halved near a munitions node, instantly reset when resupplying from expl ammo box. Both scenarios should deplete munitions rather than on-player ammo. If we're set on using supplies.. make it 10 supplies and give the SL just 10. That way even with both mortars you can't place a garrison. Both players should get a hammer--making it easier to build defenses may encourage mortar positions to be more static. The mortar OPs should have much longer CDs than standard infantry (with the same reset-on-pickup and sector loss mechanics). Mortars should be able to be placed in the blue only (not even the unlocked red), with special consideration to the start of Offensive: if you have no blue after 15 minutes, you can place mortars in the first sector. Mortars should be able to fire into HQ, but only damage "superlight" class vehicles. Give them 500m of range (which is the render range for infantry) else increase infantry render range and mortar range to 600m.
Make "artillery barrage" a command ability; a 20-shot salvo over 30 seconds with 60m of dispersion costing 450 munitions and the same cooldown as the bombing run.
I don't think SPGs should be in the game at all. They present too many challenges where the best solutions are niche and not familiar to the game's current design.
the recon-arty loop is the reason i dont even see people use arty anymore, because they just know they are bound to get spawn camped. this is good video, i really like the ideas
I liked a lot of your points, and as far as how the mortar should work, I agree, but I feel like it should be a secondary weapon, but with a deployment timer like supplies, which should give more incentive to defend the mortar, and the mortar man should only carry 15 rounds, and then the mortar officer should have an explosive ammo box, because in a real situation, they would’ve obviously split the ammo due to weight, and your ideas on the self propelled guns made sense, and I feel like they should not be capable of moving fire from the main gun, and should maybe have an mg usable by the tank commander to help counter enemy infantry, since there would be no coax
Mortar scenario B with 800 M range have my vote. Thanks for probing us ;)
i think it would be interesting to make two 3 man "emplacement teams". squad leader, support/ammo bearer, and engineer. you could add different buildables from the normal engineer, as well as new ones like a mortar pit, an hmg emplacement, move the at gun to this team from the normal squads, sniper/watch towers, etc. maybe limit the number of weapon based buildables to one per engineer, either mortar, HMG, or AT gun. this squad leader cant build red zone garrisons for balance, but the entire squad gets building speed bonuses for all structures, like how tank crewman can repair vehicles faster. this would add a nice team support/defense focused squad that the game sorely needs.
man it is sad that u don’t have more subs by now, when u put so much effort into ur videos. I hope RUclips’s gets its head out of its ass and quits shadow banning u
I think it should be portable light mortars, and have maximum range of 200m/250m. And the gameplay should be moving with the infantry and supporting them where thwy go. Blast radius can be similar to grenade or a bit wider. And resupply is only possible by going back to base to avoid spamming. And maximum of 2 mortar squads per team. Regarding the accuracy, should the same 25m radius, it wont be OP since the blast radius is smaller.
And the spawn camping. I think T17 should rework spawn protection for that. For example, if an enemy is close to any HQ, the enemy should be highlighted on the map.
And spawn protection/invulnerability & invisibility be turned off if the player fires a shot or goes outside the spawn radius. Say 100m from the HQ spawn.
I think the mortars should be scenario A not B. with the first loadouts being smaller mortar. And the last the largest.
To replace the 3 arty guns and the six personnel it takes to run. 3 squads mortar. 2 person squad. Range 700 or 800 m
I think you should be able to shoot into sector B and I but not A and J. So you don’t get spawn hit but I think it should be able to hit the cap sector on the last point.
Arty should be commander ability. Run on munitions. That balances the resources.
The node system needs fixing. Adding new vehicles and buildable things that use resources without adding more resources limits the game.
The easiest implementation would be an arty barrage commander ability. Three-five rounds in a semi-random area of effect with a cool down, a bit similar to katyusha but with less munitions drain. This would also allow the commander to use smoke barrages to better effect because you wouldn’t get people just sitting in arty to kill farm. Basically anything that drains munitions but isn’t a commander ability is a pain.
Loved your ideas and they are probably better than mine. My idea is keep the main big arty in the same spot but if its destroyed by a satchel or tank its a 15 or 20 minute cool down before it can be repaired again or even placed down by the commander as an ability. Add mortars as a class unlock for maybe support, engineer, or anti tank. Have it be at a higher class level like 8. Have it be similar to the anti tank gun as a buildable for 25-100 supplies depending on the type and have a limited amount of ammo maybe 15 or 20 rounds that can be refilled once with explosive ammo like bazookas. Have it be a 5 min cool down before putting another one down with 2.5 min if near a munitions node. I like your idea of upgrading the mortars but an alternate would to have anti tank mortar class be like a field howitzer needing 100 supplies, support mortar being a smoke or flare only mortar for 25, and engineer mortar being the typical small anti infrantry mortar. Idk just made all of this up but i think more ideas are a good thing, you can take pieces of each.
Honestly having both would be great for diversity and both are definitely far superior to the current system. Add mortar squads first then like 6 months later once theyve made some balancing changes to mortars add the SPG
Arty is already stupid powerful if used correctly and are given the proper information.
Mortars just allow squads (or they might just give a dedicated mortar squad) to spam fire an objective to abysmal proportions.
But I agree with your assessment on arty battery’s.
Maybe make the arty we have more accurate to reduce spam firing an entire sector and make mortars the new spam fire, but can’t be used past a certain point to keep spam fire.
Mortar range should be no more than 600m. If it's too long you will end up with basically the same gameplay loop as now - running whole map to take out 2 gus, who will just respawn 2 secons later.
@@Lavourrin Yeah that’s something to consider. They could build anywhere in that 600m range though. My concern for having it be shorter would be that the mortar team would never get to fire more than a couple rounds before getting sniped. Thanks for the feedback!
Instead of Mortar Squads make them Heavy Weapons Squads:
-Give then the ability to build AT guns, mortars, and a heavy machine guns and take the AT gun off the AT infantry. 3 member squad of an SL, Weapons Specialist, and Ammo Carrier with a limit of 2 or 3 squads.
-SL is identical to the regular SL's.
-Specialist builds the different weapons but can only build one of whatever kind at a time.
-Ammo carrier has a supply box big enough to build the weapons and an ammo box that must be dropped near the emplacement for it to fire.
Ammo box would be a small version of the current jeep and commander ammo drops, but all of them could be used to feed the emplacement as well as within a short range of a Munitions Node. I think this ammo method would create a broader meta where now engineers have to think more about where nodes get built and give Munitions Nodes an added functionality that only Manpower Nodes have right now. The main bottle neck here would be supplies to build different weapons (standard 5 min cooldown) and ammo to fire the weapons. A team that works together on this could be devastating but only if the entire squad plus the commander PLUS the regular squads actually work together. Recon is going to be responsible for hunting these emplacements, garrisons, troop concentrations, and nodes.
As part of this I would cut out the current arty set up all together. No guns manned by players at all. Instead make it a commander ability with a cooldown half of that of the bombing run. A strike would saturate an area with a salvo rounds from the battalion artillery for either a certain number of rounds or a certain amount of time with the shells acting just like they do now. This way arty is used more as a strategic asset while the mortars are more tactical.
im all for giving recon satchels. Lets break the game! :D
Noooooo!!! Haha!
Commander should be able to allocate a type of deployable heavy weapon to a squad that requests it for costs in fuel and munitions, for example. 50 hmg and mortar
I do think a squad system overhaul would be a lot cooler. Like 3 Man machine gun teams (Loader, Gunner, and the backup rifleman gunner), and things like the mortar squads that others have mentioned as well.
for mortars i would try and simplify the implementation by just making it a new unlock for an already existing role such as the automatic rifleman who only gets 2 loadouts (Germany gets 3) or just making it another role in the standard squad. (we didn't need a whole new separate squad/unit for the AT gun loadout we certainly wouldn't need one to set a mortar on the ground)
No supplies required to place them down, rather the mortar goes on cooldown similar to supports supply box or various roles ammo boxes. So once you place it that's where it will stay for the next few minutes.
mortars will have a set amount of shots that cannot be resupplied. Only when a new mortar is place are they resupplied. Nothing crazy, maybe 10.
The range sounds good at 6-700ft. But I say place it wherever the hell you want that isn't past the enemy back line. If you want to waste shots firing into the enemy's HQ go ahead, they instantly become duds/do nothing past the line, and you still risk giving away your position/ wasting your few shots.
U.S. would get the M2 60mm, Germany would get the 5cm Granatwerfer 36, Britain could get the 2-inch (51mm) mortar and the ussr could get a lend-lease M2 60mm. These were all relatively light weight, and easily carried by 1 person.
I think the best option would be the SPG's.
Making them cost a decent bit of ammo to spawn and be reloadable like tanks. Id prefer if you could use them like a normal tank too, but much more risky because of the open top design.
Enemy recon would also be rewarded by tracking them down due to the resource sink needed to spawn them and also intern be punished by letting the SPG just freely fire away.
At this point in HLL's life I stand by the argument that T17 will give the illusion that they listen to community feedback, but they never truly will. Do what Squad 44 does and that is have a class you can pick within the infantry dquad that carries a light mortar.
i like your idea of the mortar squad but id like to see it implemented in a different way. i think it would be cool if the mortar had a range of 800 meters but could only be placed in the first 4 grids. that eliminates hq camping. i also think that the mortar squad of two guys should rely on each other. the sqaud leader would have mortar ammo and the other member of the mortar team would carry the mortar. the mortar ammo would only have around 5 mortar shells. the mortar ammo would be regenerated in the same amount of time it takes to blow through the original 5 mortar shells if only one person fires the mortar and switches spots to reload it. now we have a team that depends on each other to do the job
Make arty shells more expensive, but give commander the ability to enable/disable the guns. And/or make them have an overheat mechanic instead of just a timer.
Or maybe give each hq guns and commander can activate or supply them using commander ability (25 shells to north HQ for x munitions)
if you give the 2man team the ablility to supply and build or if it is a handheld, 400m is lots. they will move around constantly. if its more like you need to use a truck or a support from another squad then your range of 800 makes more sense.
Lets ignore that total fail of an intro
Tbh I'd just give the support class a mortar specialist role and cap it that you can only build 2 or 3 at any given on the map per team and then getting the "team already has maximum number of.." just like nodes. Then if your position gets overrun you have to dismantle the mortar which for the sake of convenience could be done via the map like commander can dismantle garrisons. Firing the mortar spends munitions resource just like current cannons. Or perhaps that falls to the squad leader as it would be part of a ordinary infantry squad. This way you ease your struggle with access to supplies and have multiple potential spotters in your squad who might be otherwise fighting on the frontline. And as always you can just lock the squad with 2 guys if u want to play as separate mortar only squad. Of course it could be a little strange having random machine gunners and riflemen running about in same squad but on the other hand...this is just the way the ary works rn. Also I think building mortar pits should have some squad locked cooldown and the pits can be destroyed or dismantled by the enemy(slow) if they manage to capture the location as such giving the recon teams a chance to hinder your fire support for a period of time if succesful. Alternatively give this role to recon teams and the building costs no supplies but has cooldown and unit cap instead.
As for range Im bit 50-50. On the other hand I too think they should not reach enemy HQ area but otherwise I'm kinda ok with em reaching the entire map and being buildable anywhere - even on enemy territory. If you are nuts and wanna take that risk then gl. You as artyman now have more tactical options but if you're careless you're now in danger from more than just recon teams.
I won’t play this game again until we have mortars at the squad level. They need to implement it like Squad 44 does. And remove arty altogether.
I agree arty should go. I doubt they will implement it the same as S44. HLL has always tried to do things a little different just for the sake of it. I wouldn't be upset at all if they did it like S44 though. Only problem I would have is that in S44 any infantry can operate the mortar. At least I'm pretty sure that's how it works. In HLL I think only the mortar squad members should be able to operate it. Thanks for your comment!
@@GebatronGaming unless S44 changed their system it was a squad slot that operates the mortar. One guy in each squad, subject to how many other specialist roles are already active in that squad, can select to carry a mortar. I’m hoping they go this route.
Thanks for the info and your video. Hoping these things arrive soon.
Right. One person in the squad can build it, but after that any infantry player can operate it. Personally, I don't want the mortar included in regular squads because I think you'd end up with either too many mortars or you'd have to limit how many can be built depending on how ammo is implemented. It seems to work better in S44 because ammo is limited and ranging is difficult. HLL let's players very easily range because pings and marks all have distances on them. I think S44 is a great example and the devs should examine that system, but I don't think it would translate well to HLL.
@@GebatronGaming never knew others could use the mortar after the player who equips it died. Learn something every day. I agree they shouldn’t be used by anyone but specific players but still hope they make their way to the squad level. Again, thanks and cheers.
Roger that! Thanks for watching and for adding to the discussion!
I think option b for motar squad is best and SPG ideas were spot on
I do not know why this was not mentioned. But Post Scriptum/Squad 44 has the option of building mortars (81mm) and have handheld small caliber mortars (60mm). There is normally 2 light mortarmen permitted by the team.
I would have one mortar squad of 4, similar to the Logi squad seen in PS/S44 but slightly converted for HLL. This way you still have a "battery" of sorts. The roles consist of the following:
1 Officer - Retains normal kit configuration as normal Infantry Officers
1-3 Mortar Level 0 "Mortarman" - Standard Rifle, 2 Frags, Hammer, 2 bandages, 1 mortar wrench for 81mm mortar (25 supplies) can scroll to 120mm mortar (50/75 supplies), and a melee
1-3 Mortar Level 3 "Light Mortarman" - Standard Rifle, 2 Frags, Hammer, 2 bandages, 1 light 60mm mortar of 25 HE, 5 Smoke, melee.
1 Mortar Support - Similar to Infantry support but 25 supplies in order to not build Garrisons but at least 81mm mortars. I would swap class level 3's ammo box with a supply box and retain the explosive ammo box for light mortars.
I wanted to add an "elite/experienced mortarman" with a light mortar and wrench for only the 81mm. But I do not know if it would heavily affect the balance of indirect fire support for class level 6 at the cost of frag grenades. As well, the heavier 120mm mortars are optional.
The mechanics
Buildable mortars
81mm - Range of 500m, 2 crew, gunner and assistant gunner (loader). If no assistant gunner available, gunner will switch to the assistant gunner position to place the mortar shell near the gunner's position to retain the "round in the chamber" reload animation current artillery has which switching between gunner and loader. Will have the option of preparing HE or smoke rounds at the cost of ammunition. For 81mm I believe HE should be 3 ammunition and smoke 4 ammunition across both 81 and 120.
120mm - Range 700, same crew and reload mechanics as the 81. For ammunition cost HE should be 5 and as mentioned smoke to be costing 4 ammunitions.
Handheld mortars - Range of 300 or 400, Retains ammo in the weapon system of 16 HE and 8 Smoke rounds. Can be replenished by an explosive ammo box.
Artillery - 2 new commander abilities
Artillery Salvo - 4 shots (small dispersion), 150 munitions, 5-minute cooldown
Artillery Barrage - 16 shots (medium dispersion), 300 munitions, 10-minute cooldown
Or go the steel division off map artillery of having hastily prepared barrage with a dispersion of 125m 8-minute cooldown, rushed 100m dispersion 12-minute CD,, and prepared 50-75m dispersion with 16-minute CD.
I’d be interesting to see different factions have different styles of spg. The Germans could have lightly armoured long range vehicles which behave like artillery whilst the soviets could have slower, more heavily armoured and more inaccurate assault guns like the SU-122/-152. Or even katyusha trucks.
mortars are implemented in squad 44 already so it works
Love your content, man!
I don't think T17 believes in making the game better lol.
Finding a guy, who tells you that he got shot at by an MG42 in Game is obvious under HLL content.
Finding a Balaclava, which got shot by an MG42 in real life, while complaining less about it, than his in game counterparts, is remarkable.
Stay safe Brother.
PS: I've never watched a video of you, while being on the toilet
Do it asymmetrical! My take:
Allies... Have 2x 3man mortar squad.
Have them only able to fire supplied shells.
Have them available to set up without supplies (like MG) and three rounds in hand.
Have the 3rd man carry an ammo crate with up to twenty mortar only shells in it. Five minute cool down. 8 round port minute.
Have a 460m range (take the hit if you can't stay mobile and hidden!)
Wikipedia on 2 inch mortas:
Rate of fire 8 rounds per minute
Effective firing range 500 yd (460 m)
The Germans get the mobile gun Hummel, which has a 100-1000m range, but has to rely on dialed in coordinates like the artillery and a decreasing accuracy at long range.
Maximum 40 shells before it has to return to base to reload, and vulnerable to any AT our light armour.
Remove artillery... Have it as an off-map function for 20 shells over 60 seconds over a 50m radius area. For 100 munitions, cool down 10 minutes.
Russians, not sure. Haven't researched.
But keep the game asymmetric, and ally mortas the light, small, flexible squads - with German armour the bigger stronger mobile which makes a loud noise and is vulnerable to AT and ally armour
I love to see much of what I've argued for years on Reddit in this video, especially the first part. I hope that this video helps to make people understand that artillery gun destruction solves nothing and would only lead to artillery to effectively be removed from the game anyway. All it takes is a recon tank raiding mid HQ and you have a problem. One argument I often made is that rocket sniping would become much more valuable (or do we seriously feel that a weapon that can penetrate the armor of our heavy tanks couldn't damage the guns?). It's just a trick shot but people trained in it can fairly reliably kill artillery from around mid-point with AT rockets. A cool and quite impressive ability but I'd hate to see that become the meta.
The mortars I'd do much like you said (as in the AT gun equivalent), though with some differences. I'd like to see the mortar structure to serve as the OP and be dismantlable. I'd see the officer as the builder and his squaddie as the supplies provider. I would only deal with multiples of 50 though. It's very annoying to go for supplies to build a garrison only to notice that someone built one hedgehog and made that stack unusable. A 25 supply cost would increase those instances when supplies are used from an external source. The point of it becoming a garrison building unit could be countered by not giving the officer a watch, only a wrench. That means they are relying on their team to have the garrison network up in case their mortar position gets destroyed or would make use of the free transports to reposition.
I wouldn't add a requirement for both players to be present in order to work the mortar but a two seat solution like artillery would work. When reloading is effectively firing, you'd still have a fire rate advantage when both are manning it. Otherwise the officer could work the mortar and his support deals with defense or proactively put down supplies for someone else to build a garrison.
One central issue about the recon-arty loop isn't so much the predictability of the position (once the indirect fire option starts blasting you can easily home in on it anyway) but the range. Recon squads are currently the only ones able to reliably deal with artillery because they can have their OPs at locations where they have reasonably easy access. Bringing the indirect fire much closer to the frontlines opens up anti artillery duty for other unit types.
That's why I'd give mortars a max range of 500m, so one and a half sectors. The short range makes the positioning of the mortar structure a strategic choice on the risk-reward layer. Get closer for more target opportunity but at the risk of being more exposed.
I should mention that arguing ranges from a realism perspective is pretty pointless. Having artillery that close to the front and as such exposed to capture and sabotage would have been gross negligence as they had effective ranges of over 10km... so if you were to allow the realism argument, then artillery shouldn't be on the map in the first place anyway.
Not being able to fire into HQ poses a problem, which for buildable structures could be solved relatively organically by restricting placement to the first three sector lines (perhaps even splitting the mid sector down the middle). Admittedly it's still somewhat artificial but no less than garrison and OP placement restrictions.
With self propelled artillery it's a lot more difficult. Not being able to fire into a certain area seems like a jarring restriction, similar to a wall (like the one during the warm up period).
Other problems include the vehicle limit... which as you said could simply be raised but there are reasons it exists beyond gameplay. More vehicles (and wrecks) mean a greater impact on perfomance. They'd also be competing with armor for fuel and a decrewed SPG can easily become wasted resources. Plus I can already see the open topped models fleeing after a sniper shot, cue the Benny Hill theme.
I've warmed up to SPGs a bit, as they'd give recon tanks one more thing to do well but I still don't see solutions to those problems.
I do love the idea of being able to upgrade mortars... I've actually never thought of that.
Until we get any major additions like mortars and mobile arty, first implement your idea of a separate dedicated artillery squad using the current artillery system. Nothing kills a game more than when a random soldier is wasting munitions when the commander is saving up for a bombing run. You had footage of tankers manning the artillery guns too.
I propose a new squad type (mortar crew) with a maximum of 3 people per squad and 3 crews per team. One crew becomes available only after there is a total of 9 total infantry squad players then another at 18 and a final at 27. This is because accounting for tankers, recon and commander, plus 9 mortarmen, that could make up half the team. If there wasn't this restriction, a server could be half full without a single infantry squad member which could be very frustrating if your team is going up against a team that is all infantry
Each crew will contain a squad leader, a mortar operator and an ammo bearer. A new vehicle, the munitions jeep, will be added specifically for this squad
The squad leader functions as normal except I don't believe they should be able to place garrisons for reasons I'll explain later
The operator has a deployable and pick-upable mortar as their secondary weapon that can be placed and replaced like an outpost but with a slightly longer placing time. The operator spawns with and has a maximum number of HE shells so that they can fire for 40 seconds back to back, and the same number of smoke shells. These can only be replenished by an ammo bearers munitions crate, from a munitions node or from the munitions jeep and do not replenish naturally
The ammo bearer can place a crate with a maximum number of HE shells so that they can be fired for 90 seconds back to back, and the same number of smoke shells. If the ammo bearer is within, lets say 10m of both their crate and/or munitions jeep, and the mortar, they continuously replenish the oeprators inventory so the operator doesnt have to pack up the mortar each time to get more ammo. Once placed, the munitions crate can be replenished at a munitions node, the only way of actively replenishing it. Otherwise it takes 5 minutes to replenish passively i.e. without interacting with anything. I also believe the ammo bearer should be capable of building nodes for reasons I will explain later
The munitions jeep can carry a maximum number of HE shells so that they can be fired for 120 seconds back to back, and the same number of smoke shells. This can only be replenished at a munitions node or from the spawn resupply point and does not replenish naturally. The munitions jeep is a commander call in, costing a moderate amount munitions (since more will be available if arty is removed, though I assume an artillery commander call in would be added too so soms tweakibg will probably be needed). It can only be mounted by mortar squads and seats up to 3.
My overall goal here isn't just to solve how mortars should be implemented. Its also to encourage other things that aren't often done in public games, these being building nodes and defending points.
By limiting the crew to only an outpost as a spawn option organic to them and allowing the ammo bearer to build munitions nodes, you encourage one of two things. If the squad doesn't have a jeep, then you encourage the whole squad to build, fire from and defend the node(s), creating an engaging side objective for recon and attacking infantry squads by making the mortar crews into honey pots for attackers, increasing their defensive value (because the attackers are incentivised to attack something that likely isn't on the main objective, giving early warning). If the mortar crew does have a jeep, they are incentivised to drive the jeep to and from the node and move around often, providing a natural patrolling motion, increasing the chance of contact and hence fun. If a garrison was easily available, I expect SLs would build a garrison on the node then take their crew somewhere remote and set up an OP then have the ammo bearer drop the box, redeploy to garrison to resupply then redeploy to OP rinse and repeat. This is boring for the ammo bearer and doesn't incentivise any movement or meaningful combat
Finally, I believe these should be small squads rather than a role in a larger squad for all of the above reasons but also because artillery users typically join larger sqauds then proceed to sit at spawn most of the game, depriving the squad of potentially an important class role as well as a fighter so it naturally encourages more cohesive squads to make this a separate squad
Thanks for reading, I want credit if this gets taken to development :D
If I made any mistakes, let me know and we can discuss
Outstanding video and very well thought out, you should be getting paid for this content, as I said out fu#@ing standing young man!
I feel like SPGs should have faster travel time. To encourage their use against tanks… but they’re slower than typical.
I think it would be best to have the engineer class be it’s own squad of 3 players. In those 3 squads it would be the Engineer, radioman, and mortar specialist. The engineer wouldn’t have all gadgets (stopwatch, binoculars, wrench, hammer and torch) and it’s second load out of sapper would be (stopwatch, binoculars AP mines, AT mines, satchels) and for the Allies field engineer would be (stopwatch, Binoculars, grenades, smokes, and torch). Radioman would be like support class with the addition of a radio gadget that hooks nodes to the garrisons. Chain linking nodes to garrisons would in effect provide area of rearmament at the front lines (without having to place nodes at the front lines). Lastly and more importantly the mortar specialist would be like the AT class standard issue would be a deplorable mortar (without supply’s) with a short range of distance and a limited explosive that can only be replenished by explosive ammo. Second load out would be a buildable mortar that can only be place at HQ or in a defensive point. Lastly the mortar specialist should have a grenade launcher as their last load out and should be for small arms fire
I don't think getting rid of arty completely is the way to go, i think that once a mortar and spg squad is introduced the cycle will be disrupted as recon would have more targets to hunt down rather than just camping arty. They would definitely have to kill the arty occasionally but they'd also need to shift to track down the other two units. The current arty would remain an easy fixed location for any team member to use but is a known threat.
This sounds amazing
Great ideas!
Best option is to move artillery as a commander ability that could be called more often and have mortar squad created since they can be more mobile and avoid recon squads. Also, fixing the entire game would be a good start
That is my opinion, sorry I forgot to mention
My only issue with the SPG is that if you can park it far away in safe enemy territory. Theres no way friendly armour can take out that tank without getting destroyed by enemy infantry before they can see the SPG as any good enemy SPG team wont give line of sight to the objective. And seen as recon cant carry a satchel (and i agree they shouldnt), its gonna be very hard to take out an SPG once its in the game. Will be rubbish being an AT in a squad being told to go and find the SPG miles in its own spawn without being able to build an outpost in enemy territory to rely on. Im not sure what the fix could be there tbf. Maybe that SPG once found by recon can have a commander precision strike called in that should kill them in a one hit. Thats the best ive got. Needs to be a big cooldown on them if they get destroyed. Ar least then recon can keep busy through the game tracking them down and relaying back.
Well constructed video and good proposals
Glad you enjoyed it!
Id like to see mortars as 3 man squads but limited to only one per side.
I think we will just have accept mortars can fire into the nocap zones. There wont be a system that isnt absurd. Maybe servers should get a option to set limits from map edge if they choose to do so.
My hot take is to keep artillery in the game but increase the ammo cost from 5 to like 25 per shell
Don't forget game mode when considering mortars and SPGs. Would they be enabled in offensive mode for the attacking team, the defending team, or both?
I should've brought that up, but was too far into making the video to add it in. I was mostly speaking about warfare as that's the mode I think most people play and like. I was thinking that Offensive could keep their arty guns the way it works now while Skirmish mode wouldn't get any of it. What would you like to see?
what if they added mortars but also kept arty... but they added an arty section like recon, and armour has, and if you are in arty squad you can put an op anywhere like recon does, and choose to either take out enemy arty or shoot your own arty. i think they should also have motars tho too. but if you had an disgnated arty squad that could deal with arty while recon goes back and does their own thing. personally i don't mind the arty loop currently because there are 2 recon squads and you only need one person too deal with arty, and the other 3 people can hunt for garrisons. but i do think they should add mortars, but don't think they are coming soon.
The mortar should me man portable because that’s how mortars worked, carrying it should be the go to method. If the ammo is tied to ammo boxes, the secondary load out for the mortar NCO should have an explosive ammo box. Give the mortar man 30 or 40 shells per load out and if they are near nodes let him resupply his ammo box and drop a new one that replaces the old one after a few minutes. I would make it a 3 man element (team limit of two mortar teams), spotter and two mortar men so aiming and firing happens faster if it’s a full group. One man has the mortar + sight and the other has the base plate.
I would also add the SPG leaving the option for the driver to switch to an MG to help cover while the other two load and fire, keep the ammo organic to the vehicle just like a tank. Additionally, an artillery strike call in should still be added to the commander’s options. Having an on call bomber but no artillery is absurd. Both should be available with different times/costs.
I understand getting rid of the artillery, but I think it should stay with a mortar squad and SPG so that you keep it unpredictable on where they are shooting.
1 of each! That could be interesting too. Thanks!
How about for scenario B, the SL gets a “mortar bundle” which is basically the supply’s that can only make mortars
For the SPG. I don’t think it should be an armor squad exclusive. It should be like the half track that anyone can use it.
It should have its own ammo. Not use munitions.
Scenario b sounds best.
How about in scenario B the mortar squad leader can place the mortar but cannot build it as they do not have a hammer. Only mortar squad members can hop on mortars maybe?
SPGs could cost both fuel and munitions maybe 400-500 fuel and 50-100 munitions.
Hmmmmm....I wonder how they could make that work. Interesting idea for sure! Thanks!
@GebatronGaming I may have not thought it through. I thought it could be selected in the vehicle section with the munition symbol saying 50 and fuel symbol reading 400 for example.
They should have two support squads. 6 men, but they dont have the assault classes, they have SL, engineer, support, mortar, 2 riflemen. Mortarman can place 2-3 mortar tubes that are built but should need surrounding supplies to fire. The mortars should cost between 2-5 supply a shot and boom you got mobileand defensive mortar squads, now you can expect actual defenders in a public match cause they are setting up mortar stations. For vehicle arty i dont think it needs to exist in game, especially with how small the maps are it would be a huge waste of resources
spg could double as an mobile anyi-tank gun. powerful cannon having HE and AP with light armor. Capable of indirect fire
With the mobile arty tanks would there be an issues if they full send to point and use the howitzer as an offensive weapon or just rush enemy HQ’s like you can currently with other tanks - on the supply box topic I think it would be beneficial for a new design of the supply create with be in need for teams to identify the difference between the current 50 supplies and 25 supplies with new reskins and running animations - can also allow for hints with other players in trying locate mortar squads
Well, they'd have to treat mortars and arty the same they do current arty by not allowing them to fire into the enemy HQ. They'd also not be allowed into the enemy HQ just like how you're not allowed out of bounds.
I agree that a different supply box would be great! Thanks!
@@GebatronGaming doesn’t really solve the issue of tanks going to objectives and using the howitzer as a main gun - unless like u mentioned having exposed roof is like a high risk high reward kind of thing with crew being easily killable - With issue around HQ’s could be solved by adding a blocked barrier that can be seen displayed in the warm up faze of the game with it only effecting that particular tank sqaud
@@jaidonauditore2303 Your concern is that the SPGs will rush into active strongpoints and use their guns in the direct fire role vs indirect fire role? Am I understanding this correctly?
If I am then I'd think that problem would take care of itself. Mostly open topped vehicles with thin armor and no MGs would make that a suicide mission. Even if they were successful for a short time then that would be well within their prerogative.
@@GebatronGaming correct 👍
Get rid of arty, make it commander ability. Enplaced mortars once you have one cap locked. Idk I thought it was a good idea 3 years ago, still makes sense to me
I prefer a 3 man squad platform.
Squad lead
Mortar man
Support dude
The squad lead can coordinate with leadership and move forward making targets using binos.
Mortar man runs the mortar.
Support dude handles supplies and ammo, and can offer protection for either the squad lead or mortar guy.
For the motar's range I think your suggestion is sensible, maybe the game prevents the mortar being built where it would be in range of the final objective.
The fact that the knife didn't register in the beginning upset me greatly
@@JCeez-jh2uh I was pretty pissed when it happened. Hahaha!
I liked how Post scriptum did arty
Scenario C: You deploy them like outposts.
I love this mortar idea, but I see several problems coming.
The examples are good, but the GM should not have a supply chest with him, because that would mean that he could build garrisons himself without having to rely on the supporter.
I would keep the artillery because it is essential.Mortars and mobile artillery should be a weakened form of artillery.
I like the idea of damaging the artillery, but I think there will be a problem with the artillery still being camped.
In World War II many mortars were used, which decided many battles, but in my opinion there should only be a few in the game.
The problem with SPG's its that if you are found, how HLL works, probably you won't be able to depress the cannon to engage the enemy. I would hate that so much I may unistall the game.
Why it could be buildable? If we can have it in our inventory. Every mortar squads had them. So that's the main reason to have mortars - it's mobility. They are small and quick to use. Mortar shots - after shooting they moving to another distance, the mortar squads worked like this. This were not something big like PAKs or heavy artillery, it was in soldiers "inventory" like. P.S. it's a very good idea.
And 1 more scenario - 2 usual infantry squads has mortar class, to not lose the people from the battlefield. Cause maps are huge and less people if we introduce mortar squad. Just add them to 2 infantry squads only, other lock. And the most important and the main role of the Mortar - mobility.
Mortar is very good addition, but 1 question , how it will be used.
+ it’s double work with supplies. Why we would introduce whole squads from the battlefield, to build , drop supplies etc. if in real life it were also small arty which were carried by infantry.
Scenario A for sure, fixes - no ammo after redeploy. + if somebody will use lots of ammo boxes - good work for recon, they must not stay and watch how it’s going on. They should find the mortar squad and destroy all ammo boxes. Jeep can have these ammo for Mortars.
Scenario B - if have mortar ammo from the resources , it will always be not enough supplies + it will not stopped by anything in this game.
Thanks for commenting on Reddit too!
I can see where mobility would be hampered by having to build the mortars. That's good feedback. I'll respond by saying it doesn't take more than 10s to build the AT gun the way it is so the actual construction isn't the problem. The problem would be potentially waiting on supplies. The main reason I favor the buildable scenario is simply for coordination. It would help keep the mortar squad working together vs just splitting up and each doing their own thing which is something you already see in recon squads. There are a couple problems with adding them to regular infantry squads. First is availability. If you are going to limit them to just 2 squads then why not single them out anyway. There currently is no other thing in the game that works that way. Second is communication. It would be very difficult for other squads to know what squads include the mortars. What if the squads they are in no longer need fire support and another squad in a different part of the map does? Does that squad then send their mortar guy 400m away from their OP and have to fight down one member? Is the player that finally got the mortar weapon they've wanted for 3 matches straight expected to abandon the role so a different squad can have it?
In the video I say "taking 8 players away from the front vs taking 12 or more" when speaking about squad size, but keep in mind that arty already currently ties players up so it's not as big of a change as it may seem initially.
Mobility should be a concern, but keep in mind that a 12cm mortar is less mobile than a 5cm mortar. While mortars are definitely more mobile than AT guns or artillery, it's not like setting them up is instantaneous.
But great feedback and thanks a lot for adding to the discussion!
@@GebatronGaming so the best way in that situation- replace 1 recon squad to mortar squad. Here is the solution - we will not lose people on the frontline. 1 recon squad - 2 people and 1 mortar squad -2 people. But in real WW2 it always had 2 people in the squad. 1 mortar squad will be good, not to spam of mortar shells.
@@GebatronGamingOfficer can have ammunition box for Mortar, the cool-down of ammo boxes will be a limit for no spamming artillery. Mobility is also important cause in offensive squads will also need the smoke shells to the point etc.
I have about 5k hours and its starting to get super predictable. I would love it if they got rid of arty for deployable motors.
Only just now after 5k its getting predictable?! Haha! Yeah I think mortars would be more engaging for sure. Thanks for commenting!
I haven't played HLL in 2 years but I'm shocked they still didn't fix artillery and introduced mortars(or an other system to stop this stupid spawnkill gameplay).
Great video as usual Gabatron!
I've put my best idea (and cheapest to implement :) ) in the repply to this comment.
--> excellent ways to address this arty-recon issue, too many matches I am excited to play recon only to trek through the mud to play hide and seek with their spawn.
--> Out in the field, being hammered by arty is one of the best, harrowing and most teambuilding experiences in HLL, I'd love to not lose it!
Complex connandrum though.
--> For Scenario 2, the 25 resource supply box would be almost the same as putting the mortar building on that same timer.
--> Range wise, 500m-550m seems a sweetspot for me, as with the bigger ranges it would again become recon's job to deal with the Arty - and what the circle (excellent graphic by the way) doesn't show is that this range is deceptively longer if you do not use it diagonally. I would even be infavour of 300 meters if the mortar comes with some sandbags/fortification like the AT gun (unlikely for asthetics).
--> I do not like special "map modifiers" as this game is complex enough already - but not all maps have the same "effective engagement range" for infantry. Remagen and El Alemain spring to mind here.
--> Binoculars for the mortar SL. No or limited squad radio - it is supposed to be from the defense.
--> Loader role seems obvious.
Arty-SPG: Open top all the way :) but making an armoured, movable Arty cannon to sit in your own back line just makes even the recon team impotent to deal with it (and if you are a tank crew, you can just park 1 recon tank nearby to cover as people already do with Arty). Limited range to the SPG as well is the way to go there - and recon tanks/AT for hunting enemy artySPG as a new role?
The Cheapest fix for the recon-arty is a "trickle ammo" solution. As a resource, you get ~3 shells/min up to 24 maximum (possibly the trickle timer resets when firing). You can blow through those in a minute with 1-2 cannons when you need it (as if it is a more manual commander ability) and then revert back to reguar play for the remaining fill up time. Then regular play - and when called upon you can run the guns again. No interaction with nodes, and no interaction with recon squad needed, and sitting all game at arty will not give you much advantage.
mortar crews act like armor where they can't build garries
what if the mortar team leader could NOT build garrisons? that solves abusing the role and just garri building teams
why not give thwe mortar placement a cooldown? no supplies required. make it a 4-6min cooldown so they can hop around too much and you would want to try to defend you position a bit.
I'm down for hot swapping while my SL forward spots
2 people per squad ! Replace it to the recon and will be good. 1 mortar and 1 recon squad. Mortar squads were not 3 people, it’s a small gun and doesn’t need the loader, the mortar guy loads it and shoot also. It doesn’t make sense 3 people.
Squad 44 already have it
I really want Arty out of the game. As it stands, it's either too oppressive to the whole team or just 2 guys. Either way, not fun.
My vision for Mortar teams would be 1 squad of 3. SL would be a spotter, gunner would place and aim, and loader would carry explo ammo and fire the mortar. This would keep the disruption of front line players at a minimum while still maintaining some historical accuracy. Gameplay would go thus:
Squad of 3 find a position, SL drops OP nearby as early warning of enemy nearby. Gunner drops the mortar similar to OP, 1 minute cooldown timer, halved when near munition node. No build time but not like a weapon bipod either. Loader drops initial explo ammo nearby which gives 30 rounds of ammo, 2.5 minute cooldown, shortened with nearby manpower node. Jeep and Commander Ammo drops provide 180 rounds if mortar is near enough. Gunner and loader start prepping the system, SL heads to front line to spot shell landings or stays to defend. Start firing away then.
I do kinda like the idea of allowing supplies to be used to upgrade the mortar, this provides risk/reward for selecting a good spot and defending it. Upgraded mortars would provide larger explosive power per round of ammo used. At a cost not mentioned, but in next paragraph
A couple points I think NEED to be touched on: Sound propagation and rate of fire. Locating mortar squads could be VERY easy or VERY hard depending on those 2 factors. We would need to find a balance on how much noise the mortars make and how fast you can shoot them. This is where the upgraded mortars could get some drawbacks though.
In the earlier example, let's take a nice number of 20 rounds/minute for initial mortar. This provides 1 crucial thing: the loader's explo crate nearby only provides 1.5 minutes of continuous fire before you're out for 30 seconds or you don't spam shots to conserve ammo. Upgraded mortars could drop to 12-15 rounds per minute, providing continuous fire to reward good placement and defense.
Regarding sound propagation I don't have any balancing other than upgraded would be louder than regular.
I won't touch on SPG's. To me they feel like an awkward fit.
Thoughts?
Forgot a couple other things. No placement in red zones as that would be weird.
Small mortar has 500m range, large has 800m
Both have shell landing time of 12 seconds
I wouldn't be super concerned with being able to fire on enemy HQs as if it is just one squad they could only lock down HQ but then aren't doing much else.
Small mortar can damage trucks and jeeps. 2 shot kill if direct hits. Large mortar adds ability to damage trucks and jeeps on splash, and everything else on direct hit only. This would help stop tanks camping when commander bomb is on cool down.
Gunner can only have 1 of each mortar type deployed.
I think that's everything.
i think you're too hung up on disallowing HQ fire. I say go ahead because in proper balanced games you are not going to use one of the only mortar squads or SPG's to spawn camp when your opponent occupys the middle flag or if they are pushed up even more. If an SPG goes off the beat path deep into enemy territory, they are losing proper team support and a light tank can just hunt them down easily
I think your observations are based on personal experience in public matches. Please take a look at the planning that goes into "higher" level competitive games where artillery is literally the game winning factor. There is a lot of preparation and execution which circumvents any of your attacks aside from a prolonged assault on artillery, and even in that case, you will lose objectives carrying it out due to manpower shortage on the objective.
Additionally, your points are based on desires but worded as if Team 17 was in the process of implementing mortars, spgs, or any alternative to artillery. This is just simply not the case due to Team 17s malaise or general incompetence. I mean, if you need clickbaity names for things, it's one thing, but you haven't leaned in that direction before, why start now?
Yes I’m trying to make the game more interesting for a larger group of players and matches. That just so happens to be public matches. I don’t think that building up defenses that can include driving trucks onto obstacles to block shots from across the map is where we should be getting our cues to game design from. Competitive teams can find ways to make mortars and SPGs game winning factors. Not only that, but changes to this game loop and calls for mortars and SPGs have been going on in both communities for many years at this point.
T17 has shown interest in changing this loop in the past. They spoke on this topic when doing their dev interview with Raz and TheFreshBakedGoods. What part do you consider to be click bait?
@@TheRusty4tw Well... yeah? You don't exactly get to make discussions if you don't have both the experience in matches AND know the game rules. It should be applied to the game in general and not because competitive players demands it.
Artillery is frowned upon cause it takes away recon units from the battlefield that could be used to direct and make precise shots to take out key infantry that threatens your team's ability to push. That's generally artillery that takes up that threat so standard infantry are left dealing with high level threats like MGs and holed up defensive positions.
Both teams are tired of arty being so out of the way. That's why this discussion is up.
@@GebatronGaming When I read the title of your video, "How Mortars & Mobile Artillery Will Work In Hell Let Loose", I immediately reacted by clicking, thinking - does this guy know something I don't? In the end, you just have baseless conjecture. Competitive teams will make all available options winning factors - that's their purpose. There is 0 indication that this game loop will change, with no evidence that mortars or SPGs will be implemented. Considering the less than stellar changes to the game since Team 17 picking up the title, their biggest change - a new mode - focuses on close combat, with graphical culling since implementation out past 250m.
What would make you believe that longer ranged options(than 250m) are even on the table for Team 17?
@@USAFreewayROTF I don't think you have an accurate view of the game in general, as your assertions are in conflict with my experience. I'm not at all speaking for competitive players, but as a player who has played both public and competitive. Artillery is the highest threat, and defense of artillery is the highest priority - so high that defenses for artillery are meticulously planned for and occupy the majority of a competitive team's warm-up phase.
Your syntax in the second paragraph doesn't make sense, as recon and artillery typically are individual units with combined purposes. This doesn't mean only recon can help artillery, or that only artillery responds to recon. The map marking system in addition to in-game and outside of game communication ensures smooth communication in a well-organized competitive team.
@@TheRusty4tw You're making it sound like I was talking about them working together. I was not. I was talking about retaliation; recon units against artillery.
They spend the entire game camping artillery when they could be more practical in the battlefield instead of preventing artillery from being used. Or artillery racking up so many kills and hampering advances with little to no retaliation. That's not fair balance.
Like aircraft for example, there's too much advantages and very little counter to them. Why do you think they're restricted to command orders instead of allowing players to control them?
Why not add mortars/mobile artillery and keep the artillery, but make them commander call ins that open the guns for 5 minutes for manual firing. That will limit the old gameplay loop and make artillery more strategic.
make arty a command ability
Sounds good and all for pc, but console is a whole nother story.
Post scriptum supremacy forever.
You can pretty much forget about asking for changes like this from this dev team. It's pretty clear they don't have nearly the amount of resources required to maintain the game let alone change core fundamentals of the game. This game will die within the next few years, let's hope squad 44 takes what this team failed at and does better.