That could be part of the issue. We have swapped in 2 to 300 pts of units with unique special rules. Getting to know how to use those new units could see our win rate jump up again.
“What do you mean I shouldn’t force my guardsman to charge the Void Dragon? It’s only thematically lore accurate if I do so!” - Lore players (me) on the 3rd losing streak
Void Dragon has 12 attacks hitting on 2s and killing on 2s? Well he'll miss two and fail to wound with one so that means it'll still be in combat next turn! ezclap
@Joushi40k also I've tried wargames atlantic boxes for guard units and they have orge boxes. Pretty cheap, good quality, just have to buy bases separately
Guard is all about the LARP. I dont play guard to win, I play guard to have my little army men fight it out and to have fun. Using a themed list or a meme list ad loosing is easily more fun than using a meta list and winning.
@@vasilkalov2622 my country (5 million inhabitants) has relatively few "large" tournaments, and to those i generally take lists that are whilst still larp, at least somewhat competitive. For smaller local tournaments that have a much more beer and pretzels approach I'll go full on larp.
I've never really thought about it that way. (I'm new and haven't really played enough games to put that part of the hobby into context -- mostly I'm building and painting). And I've felt bad not using the models I love most but don't make tactical sense. I think I'm just going to do what I want now and have fun losing
I find it fun to compare guard to my world eater army where while the world eaters suffer from lack of range, guard suffers from too much. It’s hard to make a bad world eaters list because since you only have so many troops outside of demon engines you will inevitably choose a usable unit and you list will look similar to the one meta list(though some newer players forget to take rhinos). guard armies on the other hand are so overwhelmed by options that unless you meta chase it’s very easy to make mistakes in list creation. World eaters also are very much simple in macro and take a lot of finesse in micro, making them simple to plan but take a lot of little tricks in execution. Guard is rather simple for micro since it’s a shooting army but super complex in macro since you are focused more on bodyblocking and countermoves.
Top player finds meta build that still requires skill -> noobs hear about it -> noobs play it thinking they'll auto win -> noobs get destroyed Guard isn't a forgiving army if you play badly; Sisters of Battle and Eldar are with their re-rolls
First time watching. This is a good video that makes interesting points. Guard is a hard army to master with lots of pitfalls that are easy to fall into, a lot of which you've covered. It's easy to write a list that's good on paper but hard to play. The one you described with the bullgryn/double dorn/solar blob sounds good on paper and sounds easy to play. You can write a good infantry list with 250+ models or a hybrid with 100+ infantry and a dozen vehicles. Even before the game starts you have to ask yourself questions. How am i going to get them there? How long does it take me to get them on the table? How long does a movement turn take? How long does a shooting turn take? Can I remember to give all the orders out? Do I remember the special rules/unit profiles? How long does it take to pack everything away? Struggle with these and you'll struggle to enjoy a game let alone win! I'm pretty excited for guard currently. The recent buffs and nerfs have been relatively kind to us. TC's going up was fair considering the rules change and you're probably taking a demolisher anyway. Bullgryn will encourage different lists. HWS is nice, I've been toying with the idea of a couple of lascanon squads. I could get mileage out of them with their ability for overwatch. Cover a couple of firing lines and pop overwatch as soon as the other player moves something shiny into view. Chances are the HWS will move up the target list and they'll destroy the one that fired. Make sure to remind the other player of the other HWS if they've forgotten. Chances are they'll overkill and that'll make it harder to kill something you don't want killed. If ignored you've still got 6 lascanon for 100 points and that is good bang to buck. Finally I'm somewhat confused over the points reduction to SS but I'll gladly accept it. Aquillons look tasty! I could see me using them for move blocking, contesting objectives and maybe even clearing off a back field out of sight objective. Many thanks!
Yeah you hit a good point here, in that even if you were to copy a list if you don't know why it's good, it might not do what you want it to I definitely was playing the Bullgryn + Dorns list because it was straightforward, and I had put the time in to make sure I had my basic game plan for the first two turns so it was just about adapting it to the enemy
I embrace the "Guard players doing Guard things" comment that's been making the rounds. I'm 100% one of those players. In fact I went on Spreadshirt today and had a shirt made with that on it, I love it so much. I'm not here to be competitive. If I wanted that I'd play Necrons or Eldar or something. I'm a Guard player because I love the look, I love the "normal men vs. unspeakable horrors" vibe, and as an Army veteran, I feel just a little bit of a personal connection to the Guard.
In my experience my reluctance to use a chess clock. My side of the game will need each one of those 90 minutes. This is a skill that can benefit any player, between volume of attacks and board coverage time management and a refined battle plan is essential. If you do not clock it out and only have an hour to play you will time out of most of your competitive games.
The hobby lag theory is interesting. Probably means we should also see a similar lag in other horde armies with a large number of datasheets (e.g., adeptus mechanicus, sisters, gsc)
well we definitely know that admech has a strong list, it just costs $1000 and is tough to play :) i feel like we've seen something similar with GSC tbh since Innes Wilson piloted that outlander claw thing
Arguably the best way to get a huge lot of guard is to wait for the metachasers to crack under hobby lag. They'll realize they don't want to paint this many models just for new ones to come out, then BAM you got yourself a 2000 pts list for a large discount and they're already assembled for ya!
Aquilons really just reinforces the ideas that you can’t just sticky or leave one model on your home objective, and you can’t just bring your melee beat sticks to the table and expect your opponent not to screen.
For necrons its the same. Necron players are new, and big necron influencers on RUclips are fun to watch but not very good at the game. Even the top players aren’t building good lists. I play very close games with my necrons against the best player in my country (losing most ot those by just a few points) However, he totally wipes the floor with every other necron player on tournaments here, often going 19-1 or 20-0 even against the so called „best“. The fact alone that almost nobody plays AD is crazy to me, because it’s by far the best detachment.
I’m a newish player. Been to my first tournaments and been exposed to some amazing players. Am definitely bringing the average down although not quite 0-5. IMO for list building and unit choices the internet resources are amazing and it’s easy to avoid the obvious pitfalls. I think my biggest problem is getting value from the units. Basically is this chimera with catachan overperforming at 125 points or is it just being wasted? Was it hard for my opponent to deal with or was it just ignorable/was the solution easy? I think maybe there is a need for “golden rules” per major unit/guidance about generally good positioning. Im considering it a long journey. TTS is speeding this up.
Hey that's awesome Making sure you understand what a unit's job is and then adapting it to the current game is one of the toughest things to do I remember in 9th one of the big realizations that helped me was that mortars were frontline screens into knight matchups because they did no damage at all
Guard as a faction is really good because of it's adaptability to be "good" in any meta cause all the datasheets are very good to great... Guard players are generally gronands who don't necessarily want to change their playstyle to take advantage of that adaptability to the fullest.
Guard can't just play one style every game. Lots of armies have a gameplan that they almost never deviate from, which means someone who isn't competent enough to adapt can play it to 90% efficiency. But Guard is different. Which armies should you push forward and move-block for three turns before getting overrun? Which armies should you hide and trickle out OC to stop primary? Which armies should you all-in? Does it change if they deploy aggressively or defensively?
Simple Guard rely heavily on mass numbers and overwhelming firepower, that being said since gw got rid of conscripts along with jacking up the cost of everything means that guard players are simply either out matched or are simply unable to do anything, again it was their conscripts that allowed players to essentially mob and over cap an objective, unfortunately with guard being to squishy they’re incapable of holding onto any real objective, not to mention their abysmal movement speed which means that they have to rely heavily on chimeras which along with the squad can cost upwards of about two hundred points already and unfortunately most games now are objective driven, which again isn’t too bad but considering that most things are either difficult at best or impossible at worst to either effectively kill, let alone be enough to survive, that being said, I find guard to be a fantastic complimentary army, such as when you throw guard in with other factions, the guard actually do surprisingly well, and that being said, any large games or massive boards are where the guard shine best, since guard are for the most parts a shooting army with melee abilities, their main strength comes from being able to drop an earthshaker round from one end of the room to the other, such as the shadowsword’s 96 inch range like WTF how many games are going to be that massive in order to count yourself out of range of such an attack 😂😂 HELL THE BASILISKS MAIN CANNON HAS A RANGE OF 240 INCHES 😂😂😂😂, like seriously are you trying to play in someone else game at that point 😂😂, but jokes aside the guard excels in mid to long range engagements, however they mostly rely either on their tanks or large numbers which kinda worked until everyone was essentially spamming conscripts and just flooding the board with bodies, which is kinda how they should be played, unlike tyranids and tau the guard win by sheer flexibility and overall versatility. But unfortunately that versatility also means that you have to lean one way or another and especially when it comes to tournaments where unless you’re playing against an entire competition full of infantry players or vehicles then fair enough but it’s that over versatility which again leads to their downfall, again with the guard you can take anti infantry and anti armor in the form of a leman Russ with a battle cannon and lascannon for anti armor and two heavy flamers for anti infantry, and whilst a dedicated vehicle list is actually the best and most effective of the ways to go, unfortunately whilst they are tough, they can be easily swamped by enemy infantry not to mention easily destroyed by concentrated enemy fire’ along with their lack of being able to hold an objective, again scions are great for their areal insertion ability but they lack the survivability of a space marine
I agree that move move move t1 is 99% the right choice. But 20 catachans on the point, with take cover, take an absolutley unreasonable amount of punishment.
As a 9th edition competitive guard player I found the nature of the guard to be the same, I enjoyed playing Krieg with a 200 ish body list with a few knight allies to lock down parts of the board and take the mid.
Many of the stats you reference should be adjusted for how many people played the faction in a tournament. For example, X/0 or X/1 is much more relevant if we look at "What percentage of guard players who played tournaments this week managed to go X/0 or X/1?" because then we can fairly compare that to the percentage of for example Necron players that succeeded with the same.
Hey Joushi nice video! But if I would send it to my friends they would just laugh the bad winrates of. They have so much trouble against 2 rogals, 2 LR and one TC that they barely won’t play against me anymore. I’m a beginner with 3 games and I think guard is super strong, what are my friends doing wrong to lose against guards..
@Michadergeile guard is definitely super strong but I don't have enough information to really help There might not be enough terrain so they're getting shot. They might be trading poorly. They might have bad lists. They might be taking risks that are too big Hard to say
Are Tempestus Aquilons really too cheap as everyone says they are? I know that ProxyHammer1 made a video on why he hates them, particularly that 3in deepstrike is not interactive similar as indirect.
I get it's a trap to always be ordering units and having officers tied to everything. However ignoring your army rule feels so unorthodox or wrong. Our lethal hits ability is nice but not a corner stone of our strategy, our startegems are okay to good depending on board state so it feels like our ordering army rule should be the thing we rely on.
It frustrates me that gaurd are the only army that pays points to use its army rule. I know it won't, but I hope that the codex gives the army an order per 1k points not attached to an officer, that the player can issue.
So early I can throw shade on "Facebook Guard". Some of the lists I see there must be from past editions. So many are nearly the vast majority infantry with random arty types. Lots of arguing if TCs are still bad.
@@Joushi40kI will run a mortar just to turn on fields of fire. The squad was going to hide with solar anyway, so I cost no more points to have a pair of mortars.
So 24min to explain that stupid people play guard. Thus winrate drops from about appr. 73% to 48%.. Or guard players are poor. Well.. ok. But still you don't need aquilons to win. I believe that guard encourages people to build swingy lists and in tournaments they suddenly underperform as statistics kick in. But hey, good for all other guard players, I like when I see the winrate drops, next upgrade comes soon..
Ok, why? Then you get 10 man each. Same as Kasrkin. What's the benefit that is that strong that you won't be able to win a game with the other deep strike units? Especially as all 3 are around 90-110 points? Yes the 5 man 50 points unit is insanely strong, simply because it's just 50 points and you mostly need just one man standing there. Aquila stuff is nice to have. Yeah nice but not required to win imho. What do you do with the Aquilas that no other unit can do?
Saying that Guard is “one of the best armies in the game” is laughably false. The Army rule is the worst in the game. It is insanely expensive and rarely more than 20% of your army will benefit in it, and all for extremely minor buffs. The detachment rule is nice but does very little. Lethals on Lasguns is basically worthless, but Plasma lethals and Melta lethals don’t really matter because if you’re shooting something you get lethals on you’re probably already wounding them on 2+ anyway. The Stratagems are almost entirely worthless, with one of them quite literally doing nothing anymore. The enhancements are bad except for one that is an auto-include. We have 61 Index Datasheets, over 100 total, but at most only 5 of them ever see top table play. The Lord Solar, Catachans (3 max) Bullgyrn (12 models minimum), Tank Commanders, and sometimes Scout Sentinels if they have points. Some minor tweaks David Gaylard’s list from *Feburary* has been the total extent of changes to Guard balance. And you know what? If you think 18 Bullgyrn is a reasonable Guard list then I’d suggest you shove all 18 of those models up yourself because you do not understand the Imperial Guard in the slightest. Go be a Dark Angels player. In summary, Guard has a lower win rate but higher top table placing because the faction sucks but people who ignore 70% of the rules and copy-paste the same jank list do well. Guard is in a *terrible place* period.
Win rate was bad because everyone was too tired after staying up all night to paint their aquillons.
too eepy
That could be part of the issue. We have swapped in 2 to 300 pts of units with unique special rules. Getting to know how to use those new units could see our win rate jump up again.
“What do you mean I shouldn’t force my guardsman to charge the Void Dragon? It’s only thematically lore accurate if I do so!”
- Lore players (me) on the 3rd losing streak
Void Dragon has 12 attacks hitting on 2s and killing on 2s? Well he'll miss two and fail to wound with one so that means it'll still be in combat next turn!
ezclap
Got mordian glory to shout out ur channel today during his livestream! Hope u guys can do a collab in the future be really cool!
ooh I'd be down
@Joushi40k also I've tried wargames atlantic boxes for guard units and they have orge boxes. Pretty cheap, good quality, just have to buy bases separately
As one of the bad guard players let me just say don’t worry meta guard players we got you back on operation avoid guard nerfs :p
we appreciate your sacrifice
To each of us falls a task.
That's so on theme w/ Guard too
Operation submarine is a go
Guard is all about the LARP. I dont play guard to win, I play guard to have my little army men fight it out and to have fun. Using a themed list or a meme list ad loosing is easily more fun than using a meta list and winning.
I found them! Meta Monday, this player right here
But do you go to a large competative event with the LARP army?
@@vasilkalov2622 my country (5 million inhabitants) has relatively few "large" tournaments, and to those i generally take lists that are whilst still larp, at least somewhat competitive. For smaller local tournaments that have a much more beer and pretzels approach I'll go full on larp.
I've never really thought about it that way. (I'm new and haven't really played enough games to put that part of the hobby into context -- mostly I'm building and painting). And I've felt bad not using the models I love most but don't make tactical sense. I think I'm just going to do what I want now and have fun losing
@@Joushi40kDon't blame me, we guard players are a special bunch, aren't we?
Just before watching this I saw a reddit post asking "should I drop a Basilisk, because I don't have an order for it"...
I find it fun to compare guard to my world eater army where while the world eaters suffer from lack of range, guard suffers from too much. It’s hard to make a bad world eaters list because since you only have so many troops outside of demon engines you will inevitably choose a usable unit and you list will look similar to the one meta list(though some newer players forget to take rhinos). guard armies on the other hand are so overwhelmed by options that unless you meta chase it’s very easy to make mistakes in list creation. World eaters also are very much simple in macro and take a lot of finesse in micro, making them simple to plan but take a lot of little tricks in execution. Guard is rather simple for micro since it’s a shooting army but super complex in macro since you are focused more on bodyblocking and countermoves.
Guard does play like trench warfare faction, the only difference is that we are taking the midboard as our trench not our deployment zone
just build trenches in their DZ???
Mordian Glory calls guard a 'high practice army'. There's a high ceiling and a low floor.
Top player finds meta build that still requires skill -> noobs hear about it -> noobs play it thinking they'll auto win -> noobs get destroyed
Guard isn't a forgiving army if you play badly; Sisters of Battle and Eldar are with their re-rolls
Batch painting ducks, however, it is really the only way to get decent progress on guard infantry.
Keep up the great videos mate! 🙌
GREAT VID HUMIE BOSS!!!
First time watching. This is a good video that makes interesting points. Guard is a hard army to master with lots of pitfalls that are easy to fall into, a lot of which you've covered. It's easy to write a list that's good on paper but hard to play. The one you described with the bullgryn/double dorn/solar blob sounds good on paper and sounds easy to play. You can write a good infantry list with 250+ models or a hybrid with 100+ infantry and a dozen vehicles. Even before the game starts you have to ask yourself questions. How am i going to get them there? How long does it take me to get them on the table? How long does a movement turn take? How long does a shooting turn take? Can I remember to give all the orders out? Do I remember the special rules/unit profiles? How long does it take to pack everything away? Struggle with these and you'll struggle to enjoy a game let alone win!
I'm pretty excited for guard currently. The recent buffs and nerfs have been relatively kind to us. TC's going up was fair considering the rules change and you're probably taking a demolisher anyway. Bullgryn will encourage different lists. HWS is nice, I've been toying with the idea of a couple of lascanon squads. I could get mileage out of them with their ability for overwatch. Cover a couple of firing lines and pop overwatch as soon as the other player moves something shiny into view. Chances are the HWS will move up the target list and they'll destroy the one that fired. Make sure to remind the other player of the other HWS if they've forgotten. Chances are they'll overkill and that'll make it harder to kill something you don't want killed. If ignored you've still got 6 lascanon for 100 points and that is good bang to buck. Finally I'm somewhat confused over the points reduction to SS but I'll gladly accept it.
Aquillons look tasty! I could see me using them for move blocking, contesting objectives and maybe even clearing off a back field out of sight objective.
Many thanks!
Yeah you hit a good point here, in that even if you were to copy a list if you don't know why it's good, it might not do what you want it to
I definitely was playing the Bullgryn + Dorns list because it was straightforward, and I had put the time in to make sure I had my basic game plan for the first two turns so it was just about adapting it to the enemy
I embrace the "Guard players doing Guard things" comment that's been making the rounds. I'm 100% one of those players. In fact I went on Spreadshirt today and had a shirt made with that on it, I love it so much. I'm not here to be competitive. If I wanted that I'd play Necrons or Eldar or something. I'm a Guard player because I love the look, I love the "normal men vs. unspeakable horrors" vibe, and as an Army veteran, I feel just a little bit of a personal connection to the Guard.
In my experience my reluctance to use a chess clock. My side of the game will need each one of those 90 minutes. This is a skill that can benefit any player, between volume of attacks and board coverage time management and a refined battle plan is essential. If you do not clock it out and only have an hour to play you will time out of most of your competitive games.
The hobby lag theory is interesting. Probably means we should also see a similar lag in other horde armies with a large number of datasheets (e.g., adeptus mechanicus, sisters, gsc)
well we definitely know that admech has a strong list, it just costs $1000 and is tough to play :)
i feel like we've seen something similar with GSC tbh since Innes Wilson piloted that outlander claw thing
@@Joushi40k - it definitely resonates with me. It sometimes feels like getting to battle-ready is such a feat for guard!
Arguably the best way to get a huge lot of guard is to wait for the metachasers to crack under hobby lag. They'll realize they don't want to paint this many models just for new ones to come out, then BAM you got yourself a 2000 pts list for a large discount and they're already assembled for ya!
Aquilons really just reinforces the ideas that you can’t just sticky or leave one model on your home objective, and you can’t just bring your melee beat sticks to the table and expect your opponent not to screen.
For necrons its the same.
Necron players are new, and big necron influencers on RUclips are fun to watch but not very good at the game.
Even the top players aren’t building good lists.
I play very close games with my necrons against the best player in my country (losing most ot those by just a few points) However, he totally wipes the floor with every other necron player on tournaments here, often going 19-1 or 20-0 even against the so called „best“.
The fact alone that almost nobody plays AD is crazy to me, because it’s by far the best detachment.
Make sure when you talk to your opponents when burning objectives they actually listen and acknowledge you
Don't undersell take cover. Helps bullgryn vs ap1 and 2 stuff, and I will be using much more often to protect the solar squad from aquilons
I’m a newish player. Been to my first tournaments and been exposed to some amazing players. Am definitely bringing the average down although not quite 0-5. IMO for list building and unit choices the internet resources are amazing and it’s easy to avoid the obvious pitfalls. I think my biggest problem is getting value from the units. Basically is this chimera with catachan overperforming at 125 points or is it just being wasted? Was it hard for my opponent to deal with or was it just ignorable/was the solution easy? I think maybe there is a need for “golden rules” per major unit/guidance about generally good positioning. Im considering it a long journey. TTS is speeding this up.
Hey that's awesome
Making sure you understand what a unit's job is and then adapting it to the current game is one of the toughest things to do
I remember in 9th one of the big realizations that helped me was that mortars were frontline screens into knight matchups because they did no damage at all
Guard as a faction is really good because of it's adaptability to be "good" in any meta cause all the datasheets are very good to great... Guard players are generally gronands who don't necessarily want to change their playstyle to take advantage of that adaptability to the fullest.
Guard can't just play one style every game.
Lots of armies have a gameplan that they almost never deviate from, which means someone who isn't competent enough to adapt can play it to 90% efficiency.
But Guard is different. Which armies should you push forward and move-block for three turns before getting overrun? Which armies should you hide and trickle out OC to stop primary? Which armies should you all-in? Does it change if they deploy aggressively or defensively?
Simple
Guard rely heavily on mass numbers and overwhelming firepower, that being said since gw got rid of conscripts along with jacking up the cost of everything means that guard players are simply either out matched or are simply unable to do anything, again it was their conscripts that allowed players to essentially mob and over cap an objective, unfortunately with guard being to squishy they’re incapable of holding onto any real objective, not to mention their abysmal movement speed which means that they have to rely heavily on chimeras which along with the squad can cost upwards of about two hundred points already and unfortunately most games now are objective driven, which again isn’t too bad but considering that most things are either difficult at best or impossible at worst to either effectively kill, let alone be enough to survive, that being said, I find guard to be a fantastic complimentary army, such as when you throw guard in with other factions, the guard actually do surprisingly well, and that being said, any large games or massive boards are where the guard shine best, since guard are for the most parts a shooting army with melee abilities, their main strength comes from being able to drop an earthshaker round from one end of the room to the other, such as the shadowsword’s 96 inch range like WTF how many games are going to be that massive in order to count yourself out of range of such an attack 😂😂 HELL THE BASILISKS MAIN CANNON HAS A RANGE OF 240 INCHES 😂😂😂😂, like seriously are you trying to play in someone else game at that point 😂😂, but jokes aside the guard excels in mid to long range engagements, however they mostly rely either on their tanks or large numbers which kinda worked until everyone was essentially spamming conscripts and just flooding the board with bodies, which is kinda how they should be played, unlike tyranids and tau the guard win by sheer flexibility and overall versatility. But unfortunately that versatility also means that you have to lean one way or another and especially when it comes to tournaments where unless you’re playing against an entire competition full of infantry players or vehicles then fair enough but it’s that over versatility which again leads to their downfall, again with the guard you can take anti infantry and anti armor in the form of a leman Russ with a battle cannon and lascannon for anti armor and two heavy flamers for anti infantry, and whilst a dedicated vehicle list is actually the best and most effective of the ways to go, unfortunately whilst they are tough, they can be easily swamped by enemy infantry not to mention easily destroyed by concentrated enemy fire’ along with their lack of being able to hold an objective, again scions are great for their areal insertion ability but they lack the survivability of a space marine
Meanwhile Mordian Glory with his 135 Tempestus scion pure infantry army.
I agree that move move move t1 is 99% the right choice. But 20 catachans on the point, with take cover, take an absolutley unreasonable amount of punishment.
As a 9th edition competitive guard player I found the nature of the guard to be the same, I enjoyed playing Krieg with a 200 ish body list with a few knight allies to lock down parts of the board and take the mid.
damn ahead of the meta
Because:
Meta cringe,
Guard not cringe
Many of the stats you reference should be adjusted for how many people played the faction in a tournament.
For example, X/0 or X/1 is much more relevant if we look at "What percentage of guard players who played tournaments this week managed to go X/0 or X/1?" because then we can fairly compare that to the percentage of for example Necron players that succeeded with the same.
I agree, but I'm lazy and stat-check hasn't updated with this weekend's events yet :(
@@Joushi40k haha. Legit!
I have comp lists and fun lists. I only use my comp list for serious tournaments.
yeah but 5 round, 25+ player events are most of where the data comes from anyway
Is your Discord server for RUclips members only or can non-members join your server? :)
@GT-vl4of if you can find me on discord or reddit or whatever and send me the password I'll send you a link
Hey Joushi nice video! But if I would send it to my friends they would just laugh the bad winrates of. They have so much trouble against 2 rogals, 2 LR and one TC that they barely won’t play against me anymore.
I’m a beginner with 3 games and I think guard is super strong, what are my friends doing wrong to lose against guards..
@Michadergeile guard is definitely super strong but I don't have enough information to really help
There might not be enough terrain so they're getting shot. They might be trading poorly. They might have bad lists. They might be taking risks that are too big
Hard to say
Are Tempestus Aquilons really too cheap as everyone says they are? I know that ProxyHammer1 made a video on why he hates them, particularly that 3in deepstrike is not interactive similar as indirect.
haven't seen that video but i think the consensus is that aquilons should be like 110 minimum, maybe as high as 130
Joushi calling me out rn 9:23
thanks for doing your part so we don't get nerfs
I get it's a trap to always be ordering units and having officers tied to everything. However ignoring your army rule feels so unorthodox or wrong. Our lethal hits ability is nice but not a corner stone of our strategy, our startegems are okay to good depending on board state so it feels like our ordering army rule should be the thing we rely on.
It frustrates me that gaurd are the only army that pays points to use its army rule. I know it won't, but I hope that the codex gives the army an order per 1k points not attached to an officer, that the player can issue.
So early I can throw shade on "Facebook Guard". Some of the lists I see there must be from past editions. So many are nearly the vast majority infantry with random arty types. Lots of arguing if TCs are still bad.
Oh interesting, I barely even run mortars in command squads these days
@@Joushi40kI will run a mortar just to turn on fields of fire. The squad was going to hide with solar anyway, so I cost no more points to have a pair of mortars.
I will take 3 bane blades and the lord solar, I cannot be stopped.
Hey man I play Scions. You learn real quick how to trade up and do the best at stopping scoring and getting them to move around the board
Cos they dont have good enough melee to compete on primary.
So 24min to explain that stupid people play guard. Thus winrate drops from about appr. 73% to 48%..
Or guard players are poor.
Well.. ok.
But still you don't need aquilons to win. I believe that guard encourages people to build swingy lists and in tournaments they suddenly underperform as statistics kick in.
But hey, good for all other guard players, I like when I see the winrate drops, next upgrade comes soon..
I expect aquilons to be necessary after the codex, when I assume scions will be locked to 10 strong squads.
Ok, why? Then you get 10 man each. Same as Kasrkin.
What's the benefit that is that strong that you won't be able to win a game with the other deep strike units? Especially as all 3 are around 90-110 points? Yes the 5 man 50 points unit is insanely strong, simply because it's just 50 points and you mostly need just one man standing there.
Aquila stuff is nice to have. Yeah nice but not required to win imho.
What do you do with the Aquilas that no other unit can do?
Yes, stay bad. bad guard numbers mean fewer meta chasers. Which means fewer mirror matches.
thank god
maybe the guard 25% of the meta at one of my stores will go down to 15%
Saying that Guard is “one of the best armies in the game” is laughably false.
The Army rule is the worst in the game. It is insanely expensive and rarely more than 20% of your army will benefit in it, and all for extremely minor buffs.
The detachment rule is nice but does very little. Lethals on Lasguns is basically worthless, but Plasma lethals and Melta lethals don’t really matter because if you’re shooting something you get lethals on you’re probably already wounding them on 2+ anyway.
The Stratagems are almost entirely worthless, with one of them quite literally doing nothing anymore.
The enhancements are bad except for one that is an auto-include.
We have 61 Index Datasheets, over 100 total, but at most only 5 of them ever see top table play. The Lord Solar, Catachans (3 max) Bullgyrn (12 models minimum), Tank Commanders, and sometimes Scout Sentinels if they have points. Some minor tweaks David Gaylard’s list from *Feburary* has been the total extent of changes to Guard balance. And you know what? If you think 18 Bullgyrn is a reasonable Guard list then I’d suggest you shove all 18 of those models up yourself because you do not understand the Imperial Guard in the slightest. Go be a Dark Angels player.
In summary, Guard has a lower win rate but higher top table placing because the faction sucks but people who ignore 70% of the rules and copy-paste the same jank list do well. Guard is in a *terrible place* period.
Guard players suck because they play like Guard lol