profnoctis has a WAY with words, man. The number of times I went YES, THIS when he descibes themes and relationships of concepts or people in this game is unreal.
In OG, I lost everything Aerith had equipped. Rebirth comes along... I'm thinking "ha they aren't going to get me this time" and unequip everything I have on Aerith. Yep. They got me twice.
This has to be my absolute favourite discussion you’ve had on the channel. I feel like you are both on such a similar wavelength and support all of your points with your knowledge of the game’s lore, themes, and symbolism. Incredible discussion. I really hope you have Prof Noctis back for another one again soon!
Seal, I've been glued to the screen the whole way through this video. About the time I started watching your videos, my dad who was a religious studies professor at U of Rochester died. I've never seen a guy who reminded of me of him so much like this guest. Also, I wanted to clarify something: a few days ago I passed a theory your way, but I feel uncomfortable about it. I wrongly said: I got 'your' third scenario Zack theory. I meant to say 'theory for you'. I wouldn't want to falsely suggest to other viewers that we know each other outside of your channel, and I would absolutely never want it to sound like I was trying to put words in your mouth. Sorry if there was confusion. But I recently enjoyed a creative challenge to find something other than live or die for Zack. Not to change anything, but to explore the characters as I knew and felt about them. In the end, I didn't think the theory was on topic, nor would it fit the story. I edited the comment to make it more relevant to the video, which was about Tifa. I just wanted to clarify that because this channel has been the second best part of VII for me other than the game itself. You rock, man! That being said, I have a lot to say about this game too. For me this was my greatest video game experience hands down by a mile. With all that you give us, I want to give back too, but I find it hard to convey an idea that can add to anything as good as your stuff without a full essay. RUclips is good for me to listen, but it might not be the place for my thoughts. Is there a sight you would recommend where I could reach back to some of you, the other content creators, and other audience members? Thoughts on Professor Noctis: I heard a lot of my thoughts in different words. Planet preference, the NCAA bracket, the tracks analogy, the deluded Planet... All of this was GOLD. I'm stunned, but not surprised. For me this was like seeing a younger version of my dad. That was the best part for me. I would love to hear more of his thoughts, Seal. You have some smart doctors of philosophy on these channels. By any chance, are there any medical doctor theorists out there? Particularly in psychology or psychiatry? If we could get a few of you guys on that level of education in different fields all at once, what would erupt would go beyond imagination!!! Thoughts on the Planet's confusion: The piece of lore I always held onto was Cid's OG words about the Planet being a small frightened child. One of my takes on Aerith losing and regaining her connection was a question: Did Aerith lose the Planet's trust from the parties actions in Remake? And was taking Cloud on that date and talking to him in another world her way of regaining that trust (akin to that of comforting a scared child)? But even if she can hear the voice again by the end of Rebirth, can it hear her? The White Materia looked a little too white falling into that pool. I didn't see any green. Is the Planet too confused and deluded to hear her prayer? My thoughts on Stamp and the worlds are a little more on the visceral side that mythological. I think of Beagle as the body, and the other dogs as thoughts. Maybe the terrier is the favorite, most dominate thought. But if an individual were injured, traumatized, or infected, would the brain be able to separate thoughts from reality? If such an illness went uncured, that individual might go catatonic to a happier place, or a new personality could emerge entirely, eventually erasing that old individual entirely. Yuffie's arc potentially?: For where the story is headed with Meteor's approach, and Yuffie's character development, one might think it inappropriate for her to steal the party's materia. Not to mention all the new hints we're getting about Wutai being a huge scenario on its own. But there might be a way: Yuffie has a crisis. I thought it strange that she wasn't as close to Aerith as her many bows in AC indicated. I wanted more of them too. But what if by AC this was her way of showing the party that she wished she had taken the time to be closer to her instead of always going off in her own world? Maybe she'll be the first to put a bow on in part 3. Then we have the preview of Zack's gameplay during the final battles, and the sky wheel information. In this version it looks like she didn't know Zack quite as well as she did in CC. No Buster Sword recognition. No name, even though in CC she took his email. If she realizes this connection upon meeting Zack, will she regret never sharing these memories with Aerith? Add Sonon on top of that. How do we know she won't go too hard on herself and feel like a stupid misfit kid who cares more about her precious materia than her friends? And with all the late trouble materia will have caused, maybe she might steal some to throw it away. Then again, maybe not. But for fun, let's say Zack does enter Beagle and rescues the party in Junon, and this personal crisis happens. Will fixing her up be Tifa's practice for Cloud? Foreshadowing?? Thanks once again for an awesome video, Seal! Don't ever stop!!!! For any who have read this far, Seal and everyone else, thank you for reading this long comment that pales in comparison to yet another awesome video from this fantastic channel!!!!!!!! P.S. The infamous Water Temple was mentioned (I loved that temple because it made me angry). How about that optional Ancient Forest in OG. Make it the hardest, most frustrating, taxing, punishing, complicated, and challenging level in video game history!!! Good vibes to you all!!!!
Your discussions not only entertain as a FF7 fan but enrich with how deep they get going way beyond the average videogame content creator. Thank you so much for these! I have a crazy thought that I’d like to share on part 3. I get the feeling that when Cloud falls into the lifestream after he breaks it will be Zack that saves him fighting off the black whispers in the lifestream. Seeing how Rebirth ends with their team up that could be how when we think Cloud is all alone Zack comes in help so Cloud washes up in Mideel.
Thought: At the very end, at the big party in Midgar, Barrett is going to show up with a box of chips. It will be a variety pack with every bag having a different dog, maybe some cats. Signifying all the timelines and world's are one.
This is so insightful. I’ve got an English Literature degree so I feel I looked more at the different devices used throughout the game and how the narrative is built on that. To hear someone approach it from a completely different knowledge base is so interesting. Also, now I have another couple of part 3 theories for me to ruminate on for the next 3 years 😂
1:54:46 Remake: "those with clouded eyes see nothing but shadows" Rebirth: after Sephiroth's speech about the confluence of worlds: "however, you'll never see the truth with such clouded eyes." Also what Sephiroth says vaguely reminded of what bugenhagen said earlier. Something about seeking the truth with all your senses and no secret shall elude you. I wonder if there's a connection.
My understanding was that the whispers in Remake were neutral and uniformly gray. These were the "arbiters of Fate" as described by Aerith and Red. They didn't have any intentions beyond ensuring the course of events. The white and black whispers only show up in Rebirth, after Whisper Harbinger has been defeated. These are the two groups of whispers battling in the lifestream.
1:56:59 I just had a thought, what if cloud being in touch with the other realities is what allows him to cross paths with Zack. That would make the lifestream sequence so much more sad when he has to accept his friends death but also effectively lose him twice
Me? Gongaga. It's kind of interesting how divisive its music and environment are LOL Some say its music is their favorite, some really hate its music. Weird. Probably all can agree though the chicken quest is the best part in Gongaga. (Actually now I think about it, it also relates to one of the game's theme. Those chickens defy fate by escaping, but still cannot escape their fate of been eaten. The only difference is been eaten by grandma or eaten by monsters. 🤔Food for thought...or rather, grilled chicken for thought)
Thank you so much for keep bringing these contents to us!! Majority of my theories on Yogachara, world structures on reddit are inspired by your videos and the podcast with the boys! I am able to reinterpret the game elements from a more methaphysical lens, yet it actually reorganizes elements' layout in a way that is less confusing.
This is the most random thing ever but it would be peak meta if square invited seal and all the content creators to a round table event at the end of FF7 part 3
When I hit Gongaga was right around the time I was starting to feel like I needed a break from world intel and exploration, and when I progressed the chapter 9 story, I decided to just barrel ahead with the story. And I’m really glad I did take that break. After beelining the reactor, heading straight for the airstrip, meeting CID, then heading straight to cosmo canyon…. I loved every second of those story beats. By the time I finished cave of the Gi, I was ready to explore again. I polished off most of Cosmo region, went back to Gongaga to finish up there, and by that point, I was so excited to explore, that I didn’t get the same negative feelings about exploring there. I took my time, treated it like a puzzle to solve, and ended up really enjoying my time there. I think Gongaga and Cosmo Canyon both suffer for being some of the more story-heavy regions, so people feel this urge to continue the main story quest, and when you’re in that frame of mind, the gimmicky sort of exploration of both of those regions feels tedious and annoying… But I loved it, because I wasn’t in a rush.
@@profnoctis It honestly is my favorite ff podcast out there because of the knowledge and passion that was shared, even through the disagreements. thank you! (PS please convince the people at @ResonantArc to stop being so close minded and play this wonderful game. Though it might not be the same game it was 30 years ago, its a blessing were still here discussing this game in some capacity presently)
Home from work and this gem shows up right after Max and NSP ❤ I have a special place for all of you in my heart. Thank you for being you sir, youve helped me through some of the roughest parts of my life recently and nobody would be none the wiser before I said this. So thank you again for all of your hard work!
I just had a thought. The devs may have found a way to make the snowboarding not only subversive, but kind of extra creepy given the new context at the end of rebirth. Now, cloud literally doesn’t have the emotional burden of having to deal with Aerith’s death. So why wouldn’t he be like “snowboarding down a mountain? Say less”
one of my favorite lines in the game is at the last fight with sephiroth. sephiroth says "what do u make of all of this cloud? is this real or is it all just a fever dream?" when during the fights the characters still converse it is incredible.
When Aerith makes her grand entrance to fight Sephiroth with Cloud she says, "I see what you did back there... Thank you". Cloud created a new possibility where Aerith survives. Sephiroth who controls the dark fates corrected Aerith's fate but did not eliminate the new "fork in the road". In effect this allowed Aerith to traverse realities just like Sephiroth. She also gained the ability to control some or all the white fates.
My theory is that the planet creates simulations based on past memories. When a persons memory is altered by decisions, the simulation alters itself to accommodate the new decision. The wispers work as a fail safe to prevent the system from creating multiple realities and overloading the system. At least, that's what makes sense to me.
Alternate theory on the Stamps. Everytime you recall a memory it changes. The mere process of recalling a memory rewrites the memory, creating a revision. This has been a course of study for psychologists in the last couple of decades. I hypothesize that the Stamps are merely small changes to represent your perspective of being in the dream world/lifestream that is made up of memories. Each stamp is different than the main stamp but similar enough because they are memories or dreams being recalled or stored by the dreamer. In the end, I dont believe the stamps really matter and are only there to tell us that we are not in the "real world". That's my speculation at least.
Really enjoyed this convo, amazing stuff! One small thing that I'm surprised did not come up, was relating to the thing about fate relating to the train analogy. The party talks about how a train can only follow it's tracks, etc., and that represents fate to a degree. What I think is missing is the fact the the analogy does not stop there. Early in the game the party valiantly defies the Shinra Urban Planning Department by jumping off the train and taking their own path. Way after that, during the huge materia quests, we've got a train on track to destroy Corel, which the party may or may not stop. So with that in mind, I think it alludes to the idea that you can change your path in some cases. I would argue that Cloud and Aerith visiting other worlds is akin to jumping off the train.
Riveting discussion thank you. When the two of you were discussing the intentionality behind the whispers, I was thinking that maybe another way of looking at is as promises of potential worlds. That goes to the theme song and closing words of the game, and also extends references to "the promised land" beyond the scope of the OG (in the same way that "reunion" has a wider meaning). Also I haven't seen anyone mention this, but rainbows have promise symbolism. Casting these worlds as promises of worlds may mean their unlimited nature is such that there is unlimited potential but in reality the worlds that have real intentionality or promise are few. Like even if there are infinite potentialities/promises, most of those are not significant and sort of fade away into meaninglessness. But those with significant promise carry that intentionality of the planet and are perhaps more real (then a question about Sephiroth is whether he has his own intentionality or is more trying to destroy all intentionality). Also seeing the worlds as promises, they can be both real and not real at the same time, akin to dreams of the planet.
"White materia is the ultimate materia of creation" -> when I saw the 100% intel chadley scene, I got strong Xenoblade 1 ending vibes. Fill that clear materia up with memories of the world and maybe it can do a reboot should the worst happen.
i agree that the worlds are pre-possibility of what could or could of happened like a manga vs the anime or rehersels before a play. the white, black and Proto materia is interesting to me.
Sleepezi was recently on a very long podcast in this channel with a lot of other great creators! These guys are my favorite. I feel so validated that these educated, brilliant gentleman share a common passion with myself
Right before Sephiroth says you will never see the truth with such clouded eyes is Cloud lying Aerith on the ground that is identical to how he laid her in the water in the OG cut scene. The music is at the same place and the camera angles are identical until it spins and you see the party looking down at Aerith. I think that was how Cloud blocked out the water burial. He went through the motions but either the white whispers are distorting the environment or his own mind to hide the truth. Watch the two scenes side by side. I also think another distortion happens when Cloud is with the party at the Tiny Bronco which is why those scenes were omitted in the credits.
lol, glad I wasn't the only one in complete shock to find out that the Aerith/Cloud Date universe was supposed to be a Chihuahua. When I think of chihuahah I think of the "Yo Quiero Taco Bell" lil guy.
To me, defying fate and the purpose of its place in Remake and Rebirth is about the 5 stages of grief/death, overcoming loss. 1. Denial : we can prevent aeriths death, we can change the outcome of what hurt us in the original. 2. Anger : obsession with chasing Sephiroth, cloud seeing him constantly, defeating Sephiroth the root of despair/loss. 3. Bargaining : the world's/dreams the possibilities in Rebirth 4. Depression : every dream ends, every world fades. All Things must come to an end(there can be no forever). Aerith journey into understanding that while may not want to die but she has to die. The sinking feeling that it was just a fleeting dream/wish. 5. Acceptance : this will be in Part 3, my belief as part of life stream sequence with Cloud!
I think it's a callback to Remake where she tells Cloud that she feels like the flowers have something they want to say, but she can't hear them yet. While she's obviously not talking to flowers, I think the planet is, and she can "finally" hear it.
I literally only got the Aerith date off a coin flip! lmao. I had just played a side quest with her in it. Then I got her date. When I looked at the stats at the end, Aerith was siting on 60% with Tifa at 58 and Barret at 56.
i have a question if anyone might know the answer. maybe im trying to understand a particular property of the dreamscape in too much of a literal point of view. my question is, when cloud fights sephiroth in the end of the game, or when he is with sephiroth and seph is explaining the merging of worlds, where is his actual physical body? is cloud just standing around with his eyes closed? is he asleep? knocked out? is he lumbering about to no end trapped in his mind? i really would like an explanation for this. i can follow that since 97 alot of things take place in clouds mind, but its hard to understand fully without a description of where his physical body is actually at in those moments. i mean once minute cloud is fighting lifeclinger jenova and the next he is standing in a hall of white, where zack touches his shoulder and they both emerge at the edge of creation.
I'm halfway through a third playthrough and something (rather obvious) occurred to me in the very beginning. When Zack first arrives in Midgar, we see the party members, sans Cloud, being carried away on gurnys. The original assumption is that they died during the final confrontation in Remake. Except moments later, we see that that's not necessarily true as Red XIII attacks the pilot, causing a crash and Zack rescues Aerith. Red XIII may or may not be dead after that. So what's interesting is that I thought it would make no sense that Aerith would be with them since Cloud was the one who brought her into the group and he was with Zack in this timeline. Except he wasn't. The Shinra troops report that an Ex-SOLDIER armed with a buster sword is still at large. So if this is a time-line where Zack lived, who was the Ex-SOLDIER? And where is he now? Does the white feather possibility hint that it's Genesis? Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it?
I miss the camping aspects of FF15 I really wish Rebirth would’ve had that or even utilized inns! The rest stops kind of break reality. I get the convenience of it for certain moments but the stopping for camp or inns is good for small story telling moments
Regarding the "jarring" comments about Yuffie's demeanor in the ending. She's a kid. She's 16. I teach and coach HS kids for a living. They will go from their world being over to cracking a joke with a friend in like 30 seconds at times. It's how many of them cope. Hell even adults do this.
Except the ending scenes do not appear in the credits like every other fmv in the game. Everyone is acting weird in that ending because it's Cloud bullshitting himself that everything is still ok. So everyone acts very typically, with the exception of Tifa/Red, which I think was put there for us to pick up on. Yuffie is just a kid, but she was devastated by Aerith's death. We haven't seen everyone's true reactions yet.
I haven’t watched the whole video yet, but maybe Aerith and Sephiroth are fighting to take place of the Harbinger from the end of remake which governed destiny.
My problem with that thought, is cloud has a convo with aerith and then gets on the plane without her, so clearly he knows she’s not with him. So I don’t get why y’all think he’s suppressing her death, I mean he got on the bronco at the end without her. What’s he think then considering she didn’t get on the tiny bronco? That she went on vacation? Lol
Thanks for answering my poorly worded question. I was definitely thinking about how Sephiroth was manipulating Cloud in that big exposition lore dump scene more that just “Lying” to him. Have you discussed the ‘red light’ Whispers in any of the episodes yet? I was late joining yesterday and haven’t caught all the VODs yet. Do you think Aerith’s story could thematically or even mechanically end up working like the end of Loki (MCU show)?
I thought that the Whispers stole Holy's power when they stole Aerith's memories. Materia is just condensed memories/knowledge/prayers. The Gi's lore and the ending suggest that the Black and White materia share the same template: "the purest of materia," the hollow orb Aerith gives Cloud. It has no power on its own but it has the potential to become anything, even the alien Gi's prayer for destruction. If materia is powered by memories, its not a big leap to think Aerith's stolrn memories and Holy's power coulf be pulled out of the Lifestream, the planet's collective unconscious. The Lifestream spits out new materia all the time, and again, the Black and White materia aren't uniquely singular, they share a blank template. I think all Cloud did is transfer Holy's power from the Lifestream to Aerith's body
What I really didn't like about the "The Promised Land" music in Forgotten Capital was how they had to inject that FF13 style of music in every stanza. I really hate how Hamazu's style of music always feels too evocative of Final Fantasy 13. It's like he knows no other style than just loud choir music. It's so obnoxious how he injects that style so much into Remake's and Rebirth's soundtrack. Most horrendously in the Sephiroth Reborn/Bizarro battles. His style is terrible, imo.
Tifa is named after Tiffany, the Greek name. It’s been found in interviews and also later the Ultimania. I know the fandom wiki and reddit threads expand on that party theory based on no direct evidence and it’s a clear case of stretching things. Unless they retcon it to make sense in part 3, but it definitely does not work for og.
Gotta say, your thumbnail is hysterical with Zack holding Lamb Cloud😂
profnoctis has a WAY with words, man. The number of times I went YES, THIS when he descibes themes and relationships of concepts or people in this game is unreal.
In OG, I lost everything Aerith had equipped. Rebirth comes along... I'm thinking "ha they aren't going to get me this time" and unequip everything I have on Aerith.
Yep. They got me twice.
When life imitates art. ;)
Ahahahhhah the same thing happened to me
You just do NOT stop producing quality Rebirth content. Thank you Thank you Thank you!😊
This has to be my absolute favourite discussion you’ve had on the channel.
I feel like you are both on such a similar wavelength and support all of your points with your knowledge of the game’s lore, themes, and symbolism.
Incredible discussion. I really hope you have Prof Noctis back for another one again soon!
An amazing pairing. Looking forward to this. Thank you.
Seal, I've been glued to the screen the whole way through this video. About the time I started watching your videos, my dad who was a religious studies professor at U of Rochester died. I've never seen a guy who reminded of me of him so much like this guest. Also, I wanted to clarify something: a few days ago I passed a theory your way, but I feel uncomfortable about it. I wrongly said: I got 'your' third scenario Zack theory. I meant to say 'theory for you'. I wouldn't want to falsely suggest to other viewers that we know each other outside of your channel, and I would absolutely never want it to sound like I was trying to put words in your mouth. Sorry if there was confusion. But I recently enjoyed a creative challenge to find something other than live or die for Zack. Not to change anything, but to explore the characters as I knew and felt about them. In the end, I didn't think the theory was on topic, nor would it fit the story. I edited the comment to make it more relevant to the video, which was about Tifa. I just wanted to clarify that because this channel has been the second best part of VII for me other than the game itself. You rock, man!
That being said, I have a lot to say about this game too. For me this was my greatest video game experience hands down by a mile. With all that you give us, I want to give back too, but I find it hard to convey an idea that can add to anything as good as your stuff without a full essay.
RUclips is good for me to listen, but it might not be the place for my thoughts.
Is there a sight you would recommend where I could reach back to some of you, the other content creators, and other audience members?
Thoughts on Professor Noctis:
I heard a lot of my thoughts in different words. Planet preference, the NCAA bracket, the tracks analogy, the deluded Planet... All of this was GOLD. I'm stunned, but not surprised. For me this was like seeing a younger version of my dad. That was the best part for me. I would love to hear more of his thoughts, Seal. You have some smart doctors of philosophy on these channels. By any chance, are there any medical doctor theorists out there? Particularly in psychology or psychiatry? If we could get a few of you guys on that level of education in different fields all at once, what would erupt would go beyond imagination!!!
Thoughts on the Planet's confusion:
The piece of lore I always held onto was Cid's OG words about the Planet being a small frightened child. One of my takes on Aerith losing and regaining her connection was a question: Did Aerith lose the Planet's trust from the parties actions in Remake? And was taking Cloud on that date and talking to him in another world her way of regaining that trust (akin to that of comforting a scared child)?
But even if she can hear the voice again by the end of Rebirth, can it hear her? The White Materia looked a little too white falling into that pool. I didn't see any green. Is the Planet too confused and deluded to hear her prayer?
My thoughts on Stamp and the worlds are a little more on the visceral side that mythological. I think of Beagle as the body, and the other dogs as thoughts. Maybe the terrier is the favorite, most dominate thought. But if an individual were injured, traumatized, or infected, would the brain be able to separate thoughts from reality? If such an illness went uncured, that individual might go catatonic to a happier place, or a new personality could emerge entirely, eventually erasing that old individual entirely.
Yuffie's arc potentially?:
For where the story is headed with Meteor's approach, and Yuffie's character development, one might think it inappropriate for her to steal the party's materia. Not to mention all the new hints we're getting about Wutai being a huge scenario on its own. But there might be a way: Yuffie has a crisis. I thought it strange that she wasn't as close to Aerith as her many bows in AC indicated. I wanted more of them too. But what if by AC this was her way of showing the party that she wished she had taken the time to be closer to her instead of always going off in her own world? Maybe she'll be the first to put a bow on in part 3. Then we have the preview of Zack's gameplay during the final battles, and the sky wheel information. In this version it looks like she didn't know Zack quite as well as she did in CC. No Buster Sword recognition. No name, even though in CC she took his email. If she realizes this connection upon meeting Zack, will she regret never sharing these memories with Aerith? Add Sonon on top of that. How do we know she won't go too hard on herself and feel like a stupid misfit kid who cares more about her precious materia than her friends? And with all the late trouble materia will have caused, maybe she might steal some to throw it away. Then again, maybe not.
But for fun, let's say Zack does enter Beagle and rescues the party in Junon, and this personal crisis happens. Will fixing her up be Tifa's practice for Cloud? Foreshadowing??
Thanks once again for an awesome video, Seal! Don't ever stop!!!!
For any who have read this far, Seal and everyone else, thank you for reading this long comment that pales in comparison to yet another awesome video from this fantastic channel!!!!!!!!
P.S.
The infamous Water Temple was mentioned (I loved that temple because it made me angry). How about that optional Ancient Forest in OG. Make it the hardest, most frustrating, taxing, punishing, complicated, and challenging level in video game history!!!
Good vibes to you all!!!!
I just thought of this, Sephiroth shows up in Aeriths dream through Cloud. The only reason he found her was because she brought cloud in....
Bingo, you got it!
Ugh this is accurate. Great thought thanks for sharing
Yup. Aerith and Sephiroth are playing 5d chess this entire game
Best guest so far imo. The quality and maturity of the conversation was a very stark contrast to a certain other episode I can think of.
Which one are you referring to?
You have some of the best discussions and theories about FF7 Rebirth, can't wait to listen to this.
A super insightful conversation. I love ProfNoctis' content; it's great you had him on!
This long form content man … this shit goes so hard everytime
Yes! ProfNoctis and also Philip from the last video are some of the greatest minds in this fandom
They just get it
We need a joint video with all of them including sleepezi.
This was such a good listen over a boring day of work!
You’re a gift to the FF7 fandom Baby seal.
Best FF7 content channel IMO.
Your discussions not only entertain as a FF7 fan but enrich with how deep they get going way beyond the average videogame content creator. Thank you so much for these!
I have a crazy thought that I’d like to share on part 3. I get the feeling that when Cloud falls into the lifestream after he breaks it will be Zack that saves him fighting off the black whispers in the lifestream. Seeing how Rebirth ends with their team up that could be how when we think Cloud is all alone Zack comes in help so Cloud washes up in Mideel.
Thought:
At the very end, at the big party in Midgar, Barrett is going to show up with a box of chips. It will be a variety pack with every bag having a different dog, maybe some cats. Signifying all the timelines and world's are one.
What a wonderful discussion. I love the depth of Prof Noctis answers, so deep and thoughtful. Thank you BabySeal for these excellent videos. ❤
This is so insightful. I’ve got an English Literature degree so I feel I looked more at the different devices used throughout the game and how the narrative is built on that.
To hear someone approach it from a completely different knowledge base is so interesting. Also, now I have another couple of part 3 theories for me to ruminate on for the next 3 years 😂
1:54:46 Remake: "those with clouded eyes see nothing but shadows"
Rebirth: after Sephiroth's speech about the confluence of worlds: "however, you'll never see the truth with such clouded eyes."
Also what Sephiroth says vaguely reminded of what bugenhagen said earlier. Something about seeking the truth with all your senses and no secret shall elude you. I wonder if there's a connection.
My understanding was that the whispers in Remake were neutral and uniformly gray. These were the "arbiters of Fate" as described by Aerith and Red. They didn't have any intentions beyond ensuring the course of events.
The white and black whispers only show up in Rebirth, after Whisper Harbinger has been defeated. These are the two groups of whispers battling in the lifestream.
1:56:59 I just had a thought, what if cloud being in touch with the other realities is what allows him to cross paths with Zack. That would make the lifestream sequence so much more sad when he has to accept his friends death but also effectively lose him twice
Me? Gongaga. It's kind of interesting how divisive its music and environment are LOL Some say its music is their favorite, some really hate its music. Weird. Probably all can agree though the chicken quest is the best part in Gongaga. (Actually now I think about it, it also relates to one of the game's theme. Those chickens defy fate by escaping, but still cannot escape their fate of been eaten. The only difference is been eaten by grandma or eaten by monsters. 🤔Food for thought...or rather, grilled chicken for thought)
Underrated comment lol
Thank you so much for keep bringing these contents to us!! Majority of my theories on Yogachara, world structures on reddit are inspired by your videos and the podcast with the boys! I am able to reinterpret the game elements from a more methaphysical lens, yet it actually reorganizes elements' layout in a way that is less confusing.
This is the most random thing ever but it would be peak meta if square invited seal and all the content creators to a round table event at the end of FF7 part 3
40:23 bro was dropping knowledge! My god. Well said
Absolutely loved the talk with both of you! Thank you so much for going deep in all the concepts of rebirth ❤
Again great discussion!
I love Prof Noctis, this conversation was awesome.
Big fan of both you gentleman. Keep up the great convos
FASCINATING talk!
When I hit Gongaga was right around the time I was starting to feel like I needed a break from world intel and exploration, and when I progressed the chapter 9 story, I decided to just barrel ahead with the story.
And I’m really glad I did take that break. After beelining the reactor, heading straight for the airstrip, meeting CID, then heading straight to cosmo canyon…. I loved every second of those story beats.
By the time I finished cave of the Gi, I was ready to explore again. I polished off most of Cosmo region, went back to Gongaga to finish up there, and by that point, I was so excited to explore, that I didn’t get the same negative feelings about exploring there. I took my time, treated it like a puzzle to solve, and ended up really enjoying my time there.
I think Gongaga and Cosmo Canyon both suffer for being some of the more story-heavy regions, so people feel this urge to continue the main story quest, and when you’re in that frame of mind, the gimmicky sort of exploration of both of those regions feels tedious and annoying…
But I loved it, because I wasn’t in a rush.
These roundtables have all bee! incredible. Enjoying the hall of fame run.
The March madness example was amazing. As a sports lover and FF7 fanatic I about lost it 😌
remember watching you guys holding it down for ff16 against the haters. happy to see you guys together again!
I pray that last stand moment is my living legacy lol
@@profnoctis It honestly is my favorite ff podcast out there because of the knowledge and passion that was shared, even through the disagreements. thank you! (PS please convince the people at @ResonantArc to stop being so close minded and play this wonderful game. Though it might not be the same game it was 30 years ago, its a blessing were still here discussing this game in some capacity presently)
Keep up the content 🥳🥳 only way I will survive the next 3 years is consistent dose of baby seal jerky tasty aquatic beef
You guys underestimated Roche. His desire, his hunger for speed is going to set him free!! Because black robes move too slowly. 🤔
Hahaha I love this! I wouldn’t mind seeing this happen
Absolutely incredible episode if Seal Team 7. Prof rained so much wisdom. And I'm saying that as someone who isn't really religious. Wow! Incredible!
Home from work and this gem shows up right after Max and NSP ❤ I have a special place for all of you in my heart. Thank you for being you sir, youve helped me through some of the roughest parts of my life recently and nobody would be none the wiser before I said this. So thank you again for all of your hard work!
Wait there’s a new max and nsp video? Aside from the avengers style ff7 podcast?
Yessss boys! Great stuff
I just had a thought.
The devs may have found a way to make the snowboarding not only subversive, but kind of extra creepy given the new context at the end of rebirth.
Now, cloud literally doesn’t have the emotional burden of having to deal with Aerith’s death. So why wouldn’t he be like “snowboarding down a mountain? Say less”
@KinziruOnoroi 😂😂
one of my favorite lines in the game is at the last fight with sephiroth. sephiroth says "what do u make of all of this cloud? is this real or is it all just a fever dream?" when during the fights the characters still converse it is incredible.
When Aerith makes her grand entrance to fight Sephiroth with Cloud she says, "I see what you did back there... Thank you". Cloud created a new possibility where Aerith survives. Sephiroth who controls the dark fates corrected Aerith's fate but did not eliminate the new "fork in the road". In effect this allowed Aerith to traverse realities just like Sephiroth. She also gained the ability to control some or all the white fates.
My theory is that the planet creates simulations based on past memories. When a persons memory is altered by decisions, the simulation alters itself to accommodate the new decision.
The wispers work as a fail safe to prevent the system from creating multiple realities and overloading the system. At least, that's what makes sense to me.
Fantastic conversation as per usual.
Thank you both very much for your time and insights.
Alternate theory on the Stamps. Everytime you recall a memory it changes. The mere process of recalling a memory rewrites the memory, creating a revision. This has been a course of study for psychologists in the last couple of decades. I hypothesize that the Stamps are merely small changes to represent your perspective of being in the dream world/lifestream that is made up of memories. Each stamp is different than the main stamp but similar enough because they are memories or dreams being recalled or stored by the dreamer. In the end, I dont believe the stamps really matter and are only there to tell us that we are not in the "real world". That's my speculation at least.
Really enjoyed this convo, amazing stuff! One small thing that I'm surprised did not come up, was relating to the thing about fate relating to the train analogy. The party talks about how a train can only follow it's tracks, etc., and that represents fate to a degree. What I think is missing is the fact the the analogy does not stop there. Early in the game the party valiantly defies the Shinra Urban Planning Department by jumping off the train and taking their own path. Way after that, during the huge materia quests, we've got a train on track to destroy Corel, which the party may or may not stop.
So with that in mind, I think it alludes to the idea that you can change your path in some cases. I would argue that Cloud and Aerith visiting other worlds is akin to jumping off the train.
Riveting discussion thank you. When the two of you were discussing the intentionality behind the whispers, I was thinking that maybe another way of looking at is as promises of potential worlds. That goes to the theme song and closing words of the game, and also extends references to "the promised land" beyond the scope of the OG (in the same way that "reunion" has a wider meaning). Also I haven't seen anyone mention this, but rainbows have promise symbolism.
Casting these worlds as promises of worlds may mean their unlimited nature is such that there is unlimited potential but in reality the worlds that have real intentionality or promise are few. Like even if there are infinite potentialities/promises, most of those are not significant and sort of fade away into meaninglessness. But those with significant promise carry that intentionality of the planet and are perhaps more real (then a question about Sephiroth is whether he has his own intentionality or is more trying to destroy all intentionality). Also seeing the worlds as promises, they can be both real and not real at the same time, akin to dreams of the planet.
"White materia is the ultimate materia of creation" -> when I saw the 100% intel chadley scene, I got strong Xenoblade 1 ending vibes. Fill that clear materia up with memories of the world and maybe it can do a reboot should the worst happen.
i agree that the worlds are pre-possibility of what could or could of happened like a manga vs the anime or rehersels before a play. the white, black and Proto materia is interesting to me.
wait did istumble into a sleepzi podcast? look at hte girth of that time! im in for a treat.
Sleepezi was recently on a very long podcast in this channel with a lot of other great creators! These guys are my favorite. I feel so validated that these educated, brilliant gentleman share a common passion with myself
I intended to take a break with binging FFVII content, but your thumbnail left no chance 😂
Baby Seal, I would like to know if you will be continuing your chapter by chapter breakdown of Remake, then possibly start on Rebirth?
favorite final fantasy content creator
Right before Sephiroth says you will never see the truth with such clouded eyes is Cloud lying Aerith on the ground that is identical to how he laid her in the water in the OG cut scene. The music is at the same place and the camera angles are identical until it spins and you see the party looking down at Aerith. I think that was how Cloud blocked out the water burial. He went through the motions but either the white whispers are distorting the environment or his own mind to hide the truth.
Watch the two scenes side by side.
I also think another distortion happens when Cloud is with the party at the Tiny Bronco which is why those scenes were omitted in the credits.
lol, glad I wasn't the only one in complete shock to find out that the Aerith/Cloud Date universe was supposed to be a Chihuahua.
When I think of chihuahah I think of the "Yo Quiero Taco Bell" lil guy.
To me, defying fate and the purpose of its place in Remake and Rebirth is about the 5 stages of grief/death, overcoming loss.
1. Denial : we can prevent aeriths death, we can change the outcome of what hurt us in the original.
2. Anger : obsession with chasing Sephiroth, cloud seeing him constantly, defeating Sephiroth the root of despair/loss.
3. Bargaining : the world's/dreams the possibilities in Rebirth
4. Depression : every dream ends, every world fades. All Things must come to an end(there can be no forever). Aerith journey into understanding that while may not want to die but she has to die. The sinking feeling that it was just a fleeting dream/wish.
5. Acceptance : this will be in Part 3, my belief as part of life stream sequence with Cloud!
Do we think the team will still go to space?
Have you guys noticed the effigies of Jenova strewn about Gi Village?
Question! What do you think is meant when we get to the Temple of the Ancients and aerith says to the ground finally?
I think it's a callback to Remake where she tells Cloud that she feels like the flowers have something they want to say, but she can't hear them yet. While she's obviously not talking to flowers, I think the planet is, and she can "finally" hear it.
@@drewtheunspoken3988 ahh yes, good one! Thanks!
I literally only got the Aerith date off a coin flip! lmao. I had just played a side quest with her in it. Then I got her date. When I looked at the stats at the end, Aerith was siting on 60% with Tifa at 58 and Barret at 56.
This is going to be the longest 3 years
Hot take, Gongaga world music was possibly my favourite music in the game. Loved that lion king shit all darn day
Banger discussion.
i have a question if anyone might know the answer. maybe im trying to understand a particular property of the dreamscape in too much of a literal point of view. my question is, when cloud fights sephiroth in the end of the game, or when he is with sephiroth and seph is explaining the merging of worlds, where is his actual physical body? is cloud just standing around with his eyes closed? is he asleep? knocked out? is he lumbering about to no end trapped in his mind? i really would like an explanation for this. i can follow that since 97 alot of things take place in clouds mind, but its hard to understand fully without a description of where his physical body is actually at in those moments. i mean once minute cloud is fighting lifeclinger jenova and the next he is standing in a hall of white, where zack touches his shoulder and they both emerge at the edge of creation.
I'm halfway through a third playthrough and something (rather obvious) occurred to me in the very beginning.
When Zack first arrives in Midgar, we see the party members, sans Cloud, being carried away on gurnys. The original assumption is that they died during the final confrontation in Remake. Except moments later, we see that that's not necessarily true as Red XIII attacks the pilot, causing a crash and Zack rescues Aerith. Red XIII may or may not be dead after that.
So what's interesting is that I thought it would make no sense that Aerith would be with them since Cloud was the one who brought her into the group and he was with Zack in this timeline. Except he wasn't. The Shinra troops report that an Ex-SOLDIER armed with a buster sword is still at large.
So if this is a time-line where Zack lived, who was the Ex-SOLDIER? And where is he now? Does the white feather possibility hint that it's Genesis?
Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it?
I miss the camping aspects of FF15 I really wish Rebirth would’ve had that or even utilized inns! The rest stops kind of break reality. I get the convenience of it for certain moments but the stopping for camp or inns is good for small story telling moments
Regarding the "jarring" comments about Yuffie's demeanor in the ending. She's a kid. She's 16. I teach and coach HS kids for a living. They will go from their world being over to cracking a joke with a friend in like 30 seconds at times. It's how many of them cope. Hell even adults do this.
Except the ending scenes do not appear in the credits like every other fmv in the game. Everyone is acting weird in that ending because it's Cloud bullshitting himself that everything is still ok. So everyone acts very typically, with the exception of Tifa/Red, which I think was put there for us to pick up on. Yuffie is just a kid, but she was devastated by Aerith's death. We haven't seen everyone's true reactions yet.
He’s a wrestling fan? Huge W
I haven’t watched the whole video yet, but maybe Aerith and Sephiroth are fighting to take place of the Harbinger from the end of remake which governed destiny.
My problem with that thought, is cloud has a convo with aerith and then gets on the plane without her, so clearly he knows she’s not with him. So I don’t get why y’all think he’s suppressing her death, I mean he got on the bronco at the end without her. What’s he think then considering she didn’t get on the tiny bronco? That she went on vacation? Lol
Did Mike (Resonant Arc) played Rebirth?
Thanks for answering my poorly worded question. I was definitely thinking about how Sephiroth was manipulating Cloud in that big exposition lore dump scene more that just “Lying” to him.
Have you discussed the ‘red light’ Whispers in any of the episodes yet? I was late joining yesterday and haven’t caught all the VODs yet.
Do you think Aerith’s story could thematically or even mechanically end up working like the end of Loki (MCU show)?
I thought that the Whispers stole Holy's power when they stole Aerith's memories. Materia is just condensed memories/knowledge/prayers. The Gi's lore and the ending suggest that the Black and White materia share the same template: "the purest of materia," the hollow orb Aerith gives Cloud. It has no power on its own but it has the potential to become anything, even the alien Gi's prayer for destruction.
If materia is powered by memories, its not a big leap to think Aerith's stolrn memories and Holy's power coulf be pulled out of the Lifestream, the planet's collective unconscious. The Lifestream spits out new materia all the time, and again, the Black and White materia aren't uniquely singular, they share a blank template. I think all Cloud did is transfer Holy's power from the Lifestream to Aerith's body
What I really didn't like about the "The Promised Land" music in Forgotten Capital was how they had to inject that FF13 style of music in every stanza. I really hate how Hamazu's style of music always feels too evocative of Final Fantasy 13. It's like he knows no other style than just loud choir music.
It's so obnoxious how he injects that style so much into Remake's and Rebirth's soundtrack. Most horrendously in the Sephiroth Reborn/Bizarro battles. His style is terrible, imo.
Hi, I'm Internet... I'm coming after you for liking The Last of Us Part 2
😂 oh no
Whywhywhy do you persist, Mr. Anderson?!
Tifa is named after Tiffany, the Greek name. It’s been found in interviews and also later the Ultimania. I know the fandom wiki and reddit threads expand on that party theory based on no direct evidence and it’s a clear case of stretching things. Unless they retcon it to make sense in part 3, but it definitely does not work for og.
I'm very excited for all the grief in part 3 BUT even more so for the CATHARSIS the Lifestream scene - let's mosey will be
@ResonantArc