I love the idea that Max is just sitting around waiting for other people to finish Rebirth so he can talk more about it. Dood is a fiend for FF7 discussions!
Think the saddest things with tifa looking dead inside at the end is the fact that she just watched her best friend die, and now she has to watch her other one slowly degrade into someone she doesn't know until he dies too as far as she understands.
The Tenth Doctor said it best, I think. "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a nonlinear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff."
It all has to do with how the lifestream and the planet itself is mostly the memories of those who have lived. So it’s a tad bit more metaphysical than strictly timelines and alternate realities per se. The fact that FF7 now canonically has the planet being something like a four dimensional entity is so wild and fascinating
@@sanddry738I think the scene where Sephiroth tells us that there is only one planet gave me a lot more confidence in this “timeline” stuff, since it eliminated all possibility of it being an actual multiverse. I also think it’s an incredibly important point since Jenova and the Gi do not come from the planet, and their stories will be very important in part 3.
0:53 I think it's also important to note one thing that, not many people bring up. It was seemingly revealed in the FF7 Rebirth Ultimania that........the Reunion was ATTEMPTED at the end of Rebirth. Like, it wasn't just a big multiversal boss fight to cap off the end of the game and the scene with Aerith, according to Ultimania Sephiorth was basically doing his big bad master plan THERE and was apparently thwarted by Cloud, Aerith and the party. Now I know Sephiorth has got a back up and we still don't seem to be clear on what this shit is supposed to do, but whatever Sephiorth is doing in part 3.........is not the way he originally planned it. This is plan B we're talking about here, and I'm kind of curious to see what that will entail.
He wanted to reunite the worlds before casting meteor. Having all the "worlds" in one place maximizes the amount of potential energy he can absorb, giving him more power than his OG VII plan.
unbelievebly enough, the timeline rules seems to be similer to.... Homestuck, of all things. In Homestuck, there is one TRUE timeline, sometimes refer to as Canon, and whenever anyone travel in time to change the past they eiather work to create that timeline, or to diverge from it. Whenever a new timeline that diverge from the true timeline is created, it is considered a doomed timeline, and everyone and everything in it would eventually die. However, there are multiple instences where a doomed timeline is needed in order to help facilitate the true timeline.
@OneColdRepublican it's a webcomic with some game logic in it. Very infamous for toxic fanbase. I actually don't recommend reading it, I used to like it, but not anymore.
@@OneColdRepublican Webcomic. First few Acts are pretty funny but then it goes off the rails and lands on another track you never knew existed. 4 internet friends play a videogames that ends the workd and more shenanigans are involved. You just gotta read if you want to comprehend.
The whole “re-doing” of the ending (Advent Children, etc.) through learning how to accept grief also continues to track Neon Genesis Evangelion Rebuild. I really feel like that was the template for the whole FF7R project.
Might be coincidence cuz most of the main plot was actually an idea Nojima started plotting 10 years after the OG came out. There is a lot of similarities for sure. But when FF7 fans talk about the "30 Year Cook" they ain't lying
I think my favorite part about this game is how Sephiroth is legitimately annoyed and angry at Aerith. He’s like, “this bitch is trying to thwart me.” It’s so satisfying seeing that smug, sadistic piece of shit get outsmarted 😂
@@thunderflare59 I love to think by the end of this story, while Cloud has been dealing with Sephiroth PTSD, Sephiroth starts experiencing Aerith PTSD. Aerith: “I’m waiting, Sephiroth.”
@@thatstheway2429dude. I’ve been laughing for the past 10 minutes straight. Solid gold comment here. “Get back here ya little bi-h. Imma give you despair!”
I believe it was Nojima that said they were inspired by Carl Jung's philosophy on the Collective Unconscious? That would help explain the story perfectly, and even fits into the concepts that make up the original game. I'm pretty sure these "alternate timelines" are purely a metaphysical space comprised of the world's collective memories, emotions, dreams, etc. The scenes at the end that display the rainbow effect are absolutely transpiring in Cloud's head or something along those lines. I absolutely don't buy into the explanation of the multiverse in the same sense of how multiverses are generally described.
@@zacatkinson3926 It'll be a lot simpler than people are expecting. It's really just going to be an extensive embellishment of the original story. The lifestream and Cloud's subconscious are really the only key factors that I feel people are missing, and getting dragged into the notion of some "alternate realities". But it does set up well for some good surprises.
@@ExploitedWorker I wish to believe that, I really do, but it won't turn out like that. Simply because they went all in already with all of it. If it was "simple" it would just lead the whole of Rebirth ad absurdum. I can buy into the Zack projected into the fight at the end being in "Cloud's head", but what about all the scenes where he does stuff on his own...? Like how is that supposed to happen just in Cloud's head. It feels like an appropriate theory if we are talking about everything weird that happens when Cloud is on screen, but what about every other scene that doesn't make any sense? Like they absolutely made clear it IS some pocket dimension bs writing.
To answer your question, Cloud at the end is thinking Aerith is going to stay at The Forgotten Capital to continue praying. She directly says to him that she’ll continue praying to stop meteor and leave the rest to him. That’s the story she’s selling to Cloud to explain why she’s not tagging along. Cloud questions it one time when he asks “what if something happens?” and she says “then I’ll send up smoke!”, and Clouds like “okay I’ll keep a look out”. He doesn’t accept her death. She knows his mind is too fragile right now to accept it and that’s why she does this. He will have to come to terms with it later in part 3. It’s brilliant because this denial mirrors the way many players reacted to Aeriths death originally. I love Nojima, Nomura and all these devs. They’re not afraid to take huge risks because they’re confident in their vision, and I’m also confident that this set up will pay off beautifully in part 3.
I'm not sure its really a "story" she selling to him though. If you look at the white materia, in the OG when it fell it was pale green, meaning she managed to activate it according to Bugenhagen it glows green when it has been activated, but it is very clearly still white when it falls from her ribbon in Rebirth.
That could definitely be it, and makes Cloud's delusion in some ways more simple to understand. If he literally thinks he saved her and she didnt die, then the only question is - is the Aerith we see talking to him from actually in the lifestream and not just in the 'world where she lived' or whatever? I think that might be the trick of it, and it might actually explain why Red senses her - for us to know that he feels her presence in the LS, not in another world or whatever. Idk, then it makes me wonder how Aerith is able to be visible to Cloud unless they are trying to say thats just something she can do, and Cloud is now attuned to seeing the lifestream because when Sephiroth gave him the indirect ability to see between worlds, we realize that these "worlds" are just the lifestream and an amalgamation of memories, experiences, etc. anyway.
3:25 i interpreted it as the Aerith who died in the.....let's call it 'prime' timeline helping Cloud beat Sephiorth. It's why she says " I saw what you did there", referring to witnessing the other universe be created (it was also confirmed in the ultimania that Cloud SAVED Aerith and it wasn't ultimately part of a illusion (him saving her at the very least) and also why she fades away seemingly into the lifestream at the end of the battle. I can not 100% confirm this either but there is a strong possibility that 'prime' Aerith may have moved into the body of AU aerith. We've seen Cloud and Aerith specifically shown to be connected to their AU selves and Cloud was seemingly pulled into his AU body for the 'date' and then sent back. We see AU aerith being laid down to go to sleep, Cloud fights Sephiorth with 'prime' aerith and then goes back and we see him with AU Aerith and her 'waking up' why would she need to be 'asleep'? I think it was to possibly wait for 'prime' aerith to kind of hop into her body which is why she 'wakes' up at the end.
47:38 That's not the theme Max is talking about, he's talking about the scene where Aerith shows up to Cloud when the party is crying at the place where her body is laid to rest, you can hear a very somber and creepy music for like 5 seconds.
Rebirth honestly might fuck with Tifa more than it does with Cloud. Tifa has her childhood friend doubt her just cause she survived, watches him go mad killing a bunch of guys then tries to murder her, gets swam around inside a weapon, nearly smooches Cloud while making up with him afterwards, gets hit with the rudest X to doubt by a ball riding grandpa, is forced to relive her worse trauma TWICE first revisiting Nibelhiem then more directly in the temple of the ancients, watches Cloud go insane again, her best friend gets murdered and now Cloud is full nutty mode and during ALL of this she has to be Clouds emotional support waifu WHILE nursing the emotional pain of Jessie Biggs and Wedge dying last game. Cloud atleast has the buffer of being coocoo for Cocoa Puffs if Cocoa Puffs was tall dark and sexy with beautiful hair, Tifa is a normal girl constantly getting beaten with trauma over and over and over again
Well we still have the reveal that they didn't really know each other as kids. That scene where child Tifa calls Cloud to play is explained in Ultimania. It's his recollection and not the truth. Probably Jenova again.
this... people are overly underestimating how tifa is broken mental health wise.. she hasnt fully recovered with her village trauma. she is in fact using cloud as a crutch to hold on to the last memories of that time when she was still the happy princess of the village. no answers, full of questions. like you said, she is a very normal girl swept along with all of this. thats why theres such a heavy emphasis on her being stuck with the past that almost every conversation she has with cloud is related one way or another on what happened in the village. at the least cloud has links to whatever happened, tifa does not. she doesnt have closure on anything that happened and everything thats happening with cloud is just destroying whatever semblance of normalcy she is holding on to. she would most probably break down first, shes gonna break down hard. she and cloud are bound to fight like what happened at the start of rebirth but she would call him out in the most disrespectful way. that would be used by sephi one way or another. the gang would probably split at that point. either tifa would leave or the gang would leave cloud or cloud would go coocoo and leave the gang. when that happens, its the perfect time to insert zack. aerith would help tifa along the way. theres no way in hell that they are setting up aerith and tifa being pillow besties without using it somehow in 7r3. but then, i trully believe that the devs are using the community as a big crowd sourcing for what to do in 7r3.
There's a really interesting side in Cloud and Tifa's relationship in Remake series that is kinda toxic underneath all the tenderness they shared. Tifa clearly clung into Cloud because he is the only people from Nibelheim who survived beside her. Every conversation with him is about their hometown. It's kinda like, she doesn't want to move on. That's why it rattles her when Cloud shared his story about the incident that's different from her perspective. It'll shatter her well being if her crutch maybe isn't the one she knows from her village. So when she swam in the Livestream she kinda get the encouragement to confront, maybe from Omni-Aerith, because if not Cloud will be gone for good. And she did! When Cloud corroborated her story and being open about his own problem, she's willing to help and also move on from her trauma. But the ending happens and she's just lost now. Cloud's gone insane and she's recently just lost her best friend. She's probably gone back to her tendency to latch and keeping the broken mess of a person Cloud is because it is her coping mechanism. Cloud is the only prove to her that she's Tifa the little princess from Nibelheim. That she's the little girl who's waiting her SOLDIER prince to eventually save her like what the boy promised under the twinkling star. Cloud and Tifa in Remake is a couple who's at first seems picture perfect, is a super fucked up because their inner deep trauma. They being together isn't going to help each party's we'll being because their innate desire to use one another to cope and run away into their own false realities. If they want to be together they really need to move on. To leave the Nibelheim incident behind for good once and for all.
If I was Tifa I would’ve gone off it on Cloud! Like I want a full 30 minute cutscene of Tifa tearing into Cloud and never letting him get a word in, she deserves it!
Obviously spoilers When Sephiroth is talking about worlds, he is talking about a person's mind. A mind encompasses feelings, thoughts, emotions. The biggest giveaway is the name of Chapter 14 "End of the world" as in End = Death World = Aerith. Aerith's world has ended, she died. In the latest Ultimania Nomura confirmed that he wanted to depict how Cloud's mind behaves when confronting a very awful situation, with that idea in mind we can infer that Cloud is actively suppressing Aerith's dead (just as he did it for Zack) with the help of Aerith within the lifestream at the exact same moment she died. Devs are just trying to enforce us to discuss us which is nice, buy the Copium I am seeing that "aErIth iS aLivE" just sets all these people believing it to disappointment in part 3. Although I do believe she will be back, just like Zack.
I wish it turned out like that, just an enhanced version of Cloud's state of mind and perception of reality, but how do you explain all the bs alternate timeline stuff that happens isolated from him? Like all the Zack stuff. How is that just in Cloud's mind? It was clearly made with alternate timelines and pocketdimensions in mind. All of Rebirth was about it. But I would have very much liked, if it just was a spawn of Cloud's twisted and manipulated mind, just like it was in the OG, but they went all overboard already.
Regardless of the existence of the other worlds, the point is that the other worlds provide an out for Cloud's repression and make it more difficult to accept the truth: she died and they can't get her back. The mideel reveal is going to include her death as well as Zack's. @@dshearwf
An alternative theory, that I'm beginning to believe more now, is that Cloud is less crazy at the end of Rebirth than everyone thinks he is, us as the players and his own party included. He's actually the only one seeing anything close to the truth and that's because of Aerith. 1) Aerith shows him it's possible to travel to an alternate world and shows him the crack in the sky during their dream date, and she totally does this on purpose seemingly to prepare him for the crack he sees at the end of the game. Is it to show him the world they're in is now doomed to fade away? Possibly. 2) Cloud is the only one who sees the version of her who's alive. Yes, I subscribe to the theory that Cloud, upon deflecting Sephiroth's sword, created another alternate world where Aerith actually survived. He's the only one she's able to tell that she's in fact okay. This is to ensure that Cloud doesn't actually go insane after losing her and follows down the same depressive/self-blaming path as OG. Cloud's not hallucinating Aerith at the end. She's communicating with him from the other world she survived in and he's aware of this. She's preparing him for some big chess move in Part 3, which is why she also gave him the empty white materia. Sephiroth will still try to mess with his head, though, and let's not forget, the Black Materia is still at play.
I thought about that too. It's so obviously pushing the "Cloud's shattered mind" POV that we're accepting blindly that he's blocking the death. On the other hand, this could just be the developers reassuring fans that, despite appearances, this is a mostly faithful remake and Cloud is bonkers.
This is what I think and have been saying all along. It’s an inversion of OGFF7’s plot. In the original, all of Cloud’s teammates think he’s mentally unwell and can’t be completely trusted. This time, he’s still mentally unwell…but the only one who can see the truth. This makes his companions’ faith and trust in him a plot point. One that the outcome of the story will hinge on. Their trust in him will be what determines how committed they are to their collective goal.
But does that add to the original story? The Devs have made their intention clear to enhance the original story from a thematic standpoint, and I feel that totally inverting that is when it gets too convoluted for its own good. I can get with them robbing us from our goodbye, only if it pays off with Cloud truly having to accept loss. Accepting the past and looking forward to the future by not letting your "fate" define you is what the story is really about. I really think no matter how crazy the Multiverse elements may seem, they are all in service of the themes of FF7.
@@SnoTangerine For me personally? Yes, it makes the story much better. It never made sense to me that in OG there wasn’t much rumination or reaction to Cloud’s manipulation by Sephiroth. Both the party and he did not make a good case for why he should be included in the journey north if he’s a legitimate danger to the rest of the party. Here, Cloud actually manages to completely overcome Sephiroth’s mental manipulation and stop him from killing Aerith. Only he can see it, only he knows the truth (with Tifa possibly being able to as a well, considering she saw flickering images of Aerith bleeding and not). Moreover, while I agree that FF7 was about coping with death, I don’t think it was ever about accepting the finality of it. FF7 has a legitimate afterlife where people regularly interact with the living and affect the “real”world. That’s nothing like what death is in our reality. It’s a reality where the stored knowledge of long-extinct ancients survive aeons and animate gigantic monsters. A world where eldritch abominations sail the cosmos and have the capacity to suck the spiritual essence out of a planet. Sephiroth has come back from the dead once (twice by my count if I’m accurately predicting how the 7R trilogy’s story will go). So why not Aerith? Why can’t the “impossible” happen here when it happens regularly elsewhere? Because the fanbase is romantically attached to the big sad of having her die? Fuck that. Let’s save her this time. I apologize if that last bit comes off as terse, it’s not directed at you. I just don’t buy or jive with the “life is precious because it’s finite” philosophy. I don’t accept the perspective that a story can only be good or affecting if it involves permanent death and “consequences”. I personally hope they go full-bore and let us rescue her and get Zack back. There are plenty of ways to add pathos and gravity to the story. Still, if people need a sad *death*…One idea that I’ve been attached to, and an inversion I’d like to see is for a Sephiroth redemption, but where he STILL ends up dead by the player’s hand. He was such an underserved villain in OG whose history, character and motivations were never fleshed out. That it would be a twist I don’t see the fanbase predicting, ending up liking Sephiroth and still having to put him down. Hating him always felt too easy. I hope this time we truly empathize with him, feel the despair of what it is to be a slave to the people that raised you and then end up only a slightly more free puppet under your mentally manipulative, alien-horror “mother”.
Funny enough, I think understanding KH lore seems like a piece of cake compared to FF7 Remake/Sequel saga. With KH things are open ended with so much potential and possibilities. But with FF7 the devs and team have said this will lead to AC but to what degree? Things are drastically different compared to OG FF7. I don’t want a direct link to AC based on everything that’s happened. But we’re left with so many questions and we’ve yet to actually get into the deep plot of the FF7 story. Aerith’s death was really just the start of monumental moments to the story.
I will add onto your comment tacolex that kh's plot is, yeah open ended, but open ended in the same way you have just finished reading a book and you have no idea what the next book is gonna do, so not really weird or unusual at all. Following kh's progression of the plot is actually really really simple, the only actual problem with it is that it's a lot to remember since the series is so long and constantly brings back stuff, and also when it purposefully tries to be mysterious and bizzarre on purpose, which is with the end of DDD, kh3 and remind. For DDD once you realize the time travel is basically the same as Harry potter's time travel it becomes trivial, while kh3 and remind are still confusing/uncertaint since we have to wait till at least kh4 before things get revealed on stuff that happened there. The rest of the series doesn't have anything like it or rebirth and remake, which hopefully will still get explained properly next game
Please, FF7 Remake and Rebirth is much easier than KH. You don't necessarily have to play the other games/read the novels to understand what you NEED to understand and we know it will stick to just 3 games.
@@soul6733 what youre talking about isnt related to something being easier to understand or complicated than kh, but what youre referring to is how accessible ff7 is compared to kh (i was talking in terms of complicated endings to wrap your head around). in your point of view, kh is more complicated because it is a 20 years on going series, with many entries to it compared to just "one". if you wanted to read the 10th volume of a book series, of course thats not gonna make sense, and i think everyone will understand why that is a flawed idea to begin with. videogames are just generally expected to be possibly played standalone, to be more accessible to as many people as possible, but there's nothing wrong with making every entries important for the on going plot if you want to, just more ambitious. but anyway, that is also incorrect anyway, because now ff7 HAS become a game/series you cant really get the full experience and picture if you only play one game. for these remakes, you need ff7 og, crisis core, advent children, dirge, the novels, the mobile games AND both remake games. i didnt even know about the sephiroth backstory thing from ever crisis, and nico and max even talk about how information is being spread out like this. for ff7 i think its a possibly bad call, since i think most people dont care about side ff7 content, while it works well with kh since we know already every game will contribute to the plot and are chapters of the bigger story too.
I hope there right about the whole sepiroth game on the mobile to be the 3rd game start cause like kh, it insane. It still MUCH worse in kh but young sepiroth story sounds so interesting
I mean, if Cloud saved Aerith in one of these alternative timelines who are doomed to die, and he can see and speak with her just fine while staying in his actual timeline with everyone else, it makes sense he would be able to see other things from the aerith is alive timeline, including that timeline's tear in the sky. So the tear is really there for him and aerith, he's just justifying it as an hallucination, its not there for everyone else
The devs even said that the big TWIST with Cloud will be less of a 'unreliable narrator' and more of a 'unreliable world' so in this case CLOUD isn't crazy, the world is splitting apart at the seams and it seems now Cloud is one of the only people who can perceive it. Interesting twist on the original story.
I'm more in this boat for the ending. Cloud exists in both timelines at the end (Remake & Rebirth Zack's where they're sleeping and wake up). This happened when Zack touches Cloud during the ending fight. Touching him pulls him away from the party members and in to a timeline where they are fighting Sephiroth. Sephiroth himself goes between timelines as you battle him. Sephiroth separates Zack and Cloud creating another timeline in which Zack fights him as "a" world is ending. Beats him and Angeal or Aerith saves him again and sends him to another timeline.
42:51 There's a couple of issues with the "Jenova-Aerith" Theory. The first is that any time there's an interaction with Jenova-as-(insert character) there is a Black Cloak or SOLDIER in the immediate vicinity. This is established in Kalm the first time Cloud sees Sephiroth in the Inn. They highlight the Inn Keeper specifically and we learn later that he's a former SOLDIER. "Glen" is also a Black Cloak. Sephiroth does appear at times without Black Cloaks but there are Black Whispers involved at those times. There are no Black Cloaks or Whispers in that final scene. The second is that you can hand off the Black Materia to Barret, Tifa, Red XIII or Cid in the OG. It's established near Corel that Red XIII can sense far more than animals. I think it's suggested he can sense, to some degree, the lifestream. The Jenova-Aerith theory has too many contradictions to work.
Good points except that Cloud himself is referred to Jenova and Sephiroth as a clone…because he is. At least from the persecute that he was injected with Jenova and Sephiroth cells with the goal of created a Sephiroth clone, initially deemed a failure by Hojo. (Ultimately he would be deemed a success though) All of the clones you reference have Jenova cells. Well, so does Cloud. I would say Red XIII does too but it’s never specified (as far as I know) whether Red XIII has Jenova cells or not. Either way, Jenova-Aerith makes sense if you include Cloud as a “hooded figure”. The only difference between those hooded figures and Cloud is that the hooded figures have all succumbed to extreme mako poisoning
in remake ch13 beginning, cloud sees sephiroth with no cloaked guys and no whispers present, just straight up hallucinating. same thing happened in ch2 when the big midgar turns into nibelheim vision happens, neither were present but there is sephiroth. the difference is that in these times, only he can see him because it’s all in his head, like jenovaerith
red xiii having jenova cells might be similar to how they tried to do it to zack but it failed for some reason, which is why zack is seemingly immune to jenova’s influence
Remember in the Jenova Lifeclinger battle, Cloud says something like, "You've done it before, you can do it again." I took that as him remembering defeating this version of Jenova from the past.
The Bronco is going to get shot out of the sky (keeping to the original) due to the air traffic restrictions over the war. They were meant to defy faith but ended up mainly still on track throughRebirth. Rufus orders the Bronco to get shot down in the OG and by kicking off the war he has essentially still made the order for the plane getting gunned down.
@@soul6733 So can you really say its coherent? Why so much grace? Would you accept reading a book full of swiss cheese holes? I've seen intrigue and mystery is built in many other series well. But the subversion is so on the nose in this game, its as if the devs are subverting you just for the sake of subversion.
@@McLovinYoMuffin Except it's not. The game does give you hints and explanations for what is happening. We just don't have answer to everything yet because we are missing one last part which will have additional explanation. Or do you perharps judge a book halfway in?
@@soul6733 The hints and explanations given are diluted by the parts of the story which are subversive and there to intentionally mislead the audience. If it were a book I would naturally think... "This feels bad, I dont like this, something is wrong." I'm just no longer willing to give them any grace. We are all putting our hopes that everything will make sense in pt 3, after looking at the other directors works I am lowering my expectations. Other muti part series make grand stories work, but without the immense amount of subversion. This has more of the makings of a convoluted disaster in the end and we grasp at straws to make it make sense.
I’m late but one more bit of evidence that seals maxs Omni cloud theory is in the last fight with jenova at the beginning cloud tells himself you did it before you can do it again and at surface level you can see it him talking about fighting jenova but I truly think that’s future cloud telling himself bro you been thru this before you’ll be fine u can do it and knowing everything we know it gotta be the second case and if it is it would be the craziest foreshadowing I ever seen and it all was in a quick dialogue in the beginning of the last fight
You reckon that scene with the two Naminés in KH CoM is going to happen with Aerith? Like one's Omni Aerith and the other is Cloud's hallucination or worse Sephiroth/Jenova Aerith. And thet are trying to convince Cloud (Sora) to do two very different things while Cloud is confused.
EDITED Hope we get to see the Gold Saucer dates before the of this week 😅 Anyway, given that last goodbye at the end, and how Cloud seems to believe that Aerith is alive and safe somewhere else, it seems to imply that this Aerith is a combination of an illusion and her from an alternate timeline; though her saying "Goodbye" at the end might just be Cloud's inner self expessing that deep down he knows that she's never coming back. Honestly I'm not too keen on the idea of her being brought back as some sort of force ghost that appears every now and again; it can very easily make her death feel like less of a significance if they strip us of the cold reality that none of them will be able to actually speak to her again, and it can be seen as disrespectful to her and the original game. Now given what we know of the second half of the OG game, Tifa will probably play more of a protagonist role in part 3, which I'm hoping gets greatly expanded upon. But did anyone notice something strange when Tifa arrived at the alter; for just a brief moment there's static in her vision, and she seemed to perceive a scene very similar to what Cloud was seeing, of Aerith surviving, like she was briefly seeing what her heart desired at that very moment, much like Cloud. Could this have something to do with her very recent dip in a pool of Mako? Will this be brought up in part 3? I think I might have some idea on how this will play out in the next game: Cloud won't necessarily see illusions of Aerith accompanying them; his current mindset is that he's absolutely certain that she's safe somewhere else after he saved her successfully, that he beautifully played his role as the hero he promised Tifa he would become. He is in such absolute denial that he has failed to make good on this promise even after becoming as powerful as he is today, and that it cost one of his most precious companions life. He can't accept that, that he is an unmitigated failure of a hero. Thus the sad reality was blocked out almost completely, replaced with nothing but success in this last endeavour. Now Tifa on the other hand knows the truth in her head, that her friend that she grew to love is no longer with her; but her heart, much like Cloud's, is filled with a desire to see her, alive and well. Cloud won't be the one who will be frequently haunted by illusions of Aerith throughout part 3, because he's not stuck between acceptance and denial, unlike Tifa. It's because Tifa is stuck with her desire to see Aerith that I believe that she will be the one constantly seeing Aerith's image flashing in and out of her vision. It'll get stronger and more frequent as the story proceeds, to the point where she's eventually able to communicate with the illusion; a good time for this to happen is during her execution in Junon, where she's at her absolute lowest point, more so than even in the original. She comes to realise that the Aerith in front of her is not only just her illusion, but just another side of Tifa herself in the form of the one she deeply admired. Nevertheless the illusionary Aerith pleads with her not to give up, that she can still save Cloud; "If you didn't believe you could go on, I wouldn't even be here giving you this cheesy speech", she'd probably say 😉
I don’t know if this gets mentioned in the video or not yet, but I think it’s so interesting that Cid also doesn’t seem to care that Aerith is dead. Especially since he was the only one that didn’t go into the temple or the ancient city. I wonder if something happened to the rest of the party to affect their perception (most easily seen in Tifa’s version of Cloud holding Aerith) that doesn’t affect Cid.
My prediction is that, the cid portion is when clouds world view shatters, putting him in a catatonic state, then later he just vanishes, and Zack shows up and joins the party, they track cloud down, and Zack, tifa (and i highly suspect that omni aerith shows up honestly) they help cloud and he awakens into essentially omni cloud
I think Cloud's subconscious of blocking out Aerith's death was the glitching part. The scene with him letting her drift off in the water will happen in the 3rd game when Cloud's actual memories are unlocked. It's a great way to string along OG players, and a great reveal for new players.
i think we watched the timelines merge as sephiroth said into one where she does die, but cloud’s brain is so broken that he thinks she lives. the following scenes are intentionally confusing because they are playing up how bad he will lose his mind on the way to the crater, and we see aerith played by jenova and we will get to see how that truly works on the way to the crater as well, as the team watches him lose it. the early part of game 3 is gonna be dark, and we’ll be crossing some harsh and barren frozen lands while we do it which is just good storytelling the mideel/lifestream event is going to set everything right, and the white materia (currentlu clear) will fill up with knowledge and help cloud overcome the control jenova has over his mind, letting him once and for all conquer his own cursed dna
54:21 I think this is Tifa trying to reject what she is seeing. Her mind doesn't want to accept what it's seeing but she does accept it before that battle.
A lot of people missed it. The black materia was indeed fake. It wasn't glowing.. The fake sephiroth picked it up, and summoned the whispers and found the real black materia. Then it glowed but dropped through his fingers. That was when aerith was like noooo! And cloud passed it back to sephiroth. That was the real glowing black materia
I think Max has lost the plot just a little bit due to slapping new theories over old theories each time a new bit of information is revealed. Needs to strip all that away and apply Occam's Razor, rebuild the theory from scratch with the totality of information available. Take the Doylist approach to interpreting the narrative. The devs have said they won't fundamentally change the outcome of the game, nor its themes. What is the central theme of FFVII? The acceptance of death. How is that illustrated? Sephiroth rejects death and Aerith accepts death. That is the core conflict at play here, and always has been. Sephiroth says that their world is destined to become part of the universe of death (the space beyond the edge of creation, as named in Ultimania), but he won't allow the world to end, nor will he allow Cloud to end. It's stated quite explicitly that his goal is to unify fractured spacetime and create eternity. Sephiroth's goal is to make an eternal world where nothing dies -- his Promised Land. Aerith's goal, as always, is to stop him, to live in the moment -- her Promised Land. There's also the metanarrative element, which is quite simple. Just as the whispers in _Remake_ represent players' wishes to keep things the same, the unstable alternate worlds in _Rebirth_ represent players' wishes to change things. Ultimately those worlds are destined to end, and Aerith is destined to foil Sephiroth, meaning that players will also eventually have to accept reality -- Aerith and Zack died, and they died for a reason. There are things that you simply can't change. And this will reinforce the core theme of accepting death to players. As for the alternate worlds, we essentially already have an explanation for them and how they operate. The Planet produces a multitude of worlds, rising from the Lifestream which is comprised of information -- thoughts and memories. Wishes and dreams people have produce these unstable worlds that deteriorate rapidly, bereft of spiritual energy, because hopes are simple, fleeting things. Cloud was given Sephiroth's gift, so he can perceive these other worlds. And he's seeing the reality in which he saves Aerith and rejecting the reality in which he failed. Simple as that. Sephiroth wants to harness pain and suffering not necessarily to cause harm, but to convince Cloud to accept his interpretation of the Promise Land, a reality where nobody dies and nothing changes.
You totally nailed it. I think there's a ton of head-spinning stuff with the insanity of the final chapter, but if you stay rooted in the themes of the story and characters like the devs have said, THIS is the conclusion we've got to come to.
In this same vein, how do you interpret Zack having autonomy among these worlds? I feel that that is what's tripping people up and causing a lot more overthinking. I think the best way I can think to tie it in is when Cloud falls into the lifestream in Mideel, and all the character-defining reveals and acceptance are happening, maybe this is also where the memory of the lifestream ifself becomes confused, rippling back through time and because Cloud's identity is confused with Zack's, that's why Zack is the one who is able to make decisions, splitting worlds and defying destiny. Maybe I'm off-base here, but I really fully agree with you with how this all will be simple and thematically resonant in the end. This is just the best way I can think of to factor Zack's experiences into that.
I think you might fundamentally misunderstand the themes of Final Fantasy VII but under the assumption that the game is about "the acceptance of death" and not celebrating life (though AC I'll give you as that entire movie is about Cloud accepting Zack and especially Aerith's deaths) this is a great theory. And I also agree that Max has gone a little off the deep end with how wild his theory has gotten.
it’s gonna be “Reborn” i think. one winged angel at the end of remake was called OWA: Rebirth, and at the time we didn’t think anything of it until the 2nd game was called that.. and the one in rebirth’s soundtrack was called OWA: Reborn. it makes sense that they would do that again to reward those looking
By the way, we can safely assume that Clouds flashbacks are just memories of real Cloud, but he doesnt realize it yet, because he is the omni Cloud through entire game. He needs to awaken and show his heart can transform after Aeriths death, but also acknowledging it happened. This is the moment he will surpass his limits and realize he is omni Cloud.
My all-time favorite cloud line from Advent children right before he ends sephiroth "I pity you you just don't get it at all THERE'S NOT A THING I DON'T CHERISH!!!"
I imagine the timeline system for this game being more like a pipe with a sudden burst than a tree with branches, if that makes sense. I don't like referring to these as timelines due to the connotation that the phrase has thanks to things like MCU and Zero Escape. I don't think they have the same functionality, and it can cause it to be more confusing when applying that logic due to the lack of fate in these medias and the constant traveling backwards in time to cause branches. In remake and rebirth has one true flow of time, the one that Sephiroth describes as "fate", and depending on what the lifestream holds in it, strong memories and mako influence can cause a "burst" in fate, thus giving us a new set of circumstances that defy fate and lead the world to demise. Sephiroth is trying to combine these "bursts" to his liking (what exactly that is, I don't know), and he's able to access them due to his conscious being physically thrust into the lifestream after his original death at Nibelheim. I also think this is what Aerith was referring to in the Temple of the Ancients when she said that the planet was "angry". They've established in the game that the lifestream is built using the memories, emotions, and consciousness of beings on the planet, among other things, and that when people die, they return to the planet to keep the cycle going. We saw a burst in fate at the end of Remake, the reality where Zack survives. If the lifestream is being forced to, essentially create two versions of everyone to compensate, wouldn't that run out the planet's lifestream? Hell, we see this exact thing take place in the reality where Zack goes to help Biggs at Reactor 6. Fate has a deviation, then has at least two deviations within the deviation. That's, as far as the players know, four consciousnesses per person on the planet. Of course the lifestream dried up during the reactor 6 split; its trying to account for these deviations from fate, and has no more energy to further fracture. Edit: Rewording, bad ADHD makes me restate things or leave out entire halves of sentences while figuring out how to word things.
I came up with a theory... 1.Zach in the main timeline because of the flourishing flowers. In every alternate "timeline", the plant life is dead. 2.Omni Aerith has a body now in the "multiverse" because Cloud saved a version of it. 3.Omni Aerith is the one that tell Cloud that everything is okay. She did this to mess with Sephiroth's plan. Sadly, in doing so Jenova can use it. 4.BUT it is Jenova at the end (After the battle, by the pool, and by the plane before takeoff) 5.I think it Omni Aerith is the one who say goodbye I know a lot of people, include you, have come to this conclusion but I just want to put my twist on it
I don’t mind them having Ever Crisis contain relevant info. To me it's not really all that different than having this kind of stuff in Ultimania's, novels, prequel games, and other extra materials.
16:00 Dude, the crack in the sky is just in the 2nd timeline where Aerith survived. It's not in the prime timeline. Cloud is seeing the 2 different worlds superimposed on top of each other. So Aerith and the crack are both real in that 2nd timeline, which only Cloud can see.
Max says in the final scene on the hillside Aerith is never there unless Cloud is looking at her - not true. After the Bronco flies away, we see Aerith's POV, standing alone, Cloud is long gone in the plane, and she's still there and even says, "Goodbye" to no one around. If this is supposed to be Jenova, that really makes no sense and is just bad storytelling.
What’s so crazy to me about the Remake series is how everyone is at different points when it comes to theories. People new to FF7 experience the concepts totally new. OG FF7 players see some of the themes and how things are changing. And people who know more about the full Compilation of FF7 content know about the finer details and possibly where things are going. (Example like how the lifestream/worlds works and wtf is going on with Aerith and Sephiroth) It’s honestly so fun to watch different people’s conclusions and theories. Also so surprised and glad to see Max and Nico talk about things. (47:53 HOLY SHIT the fact he got Alex Mukala himself to analyze that music is crazy. Dude does great musical breakdowns of songs.)
I think Omni-Aerith is who Aerith is talking about when she says she can’t wait to meet her “future self.” Her future self is dead, but Aerith foresees some power and wisdom in it, even if she isn’t fully aware in the moment what that means for her
I knew of the original death scene, but in a weird way? I watched my brother play this game when I was young, like 9-10. I would sneak downstairs and watch him play, and eventually, I got pulled in. I remembered Aerith dying, but I didn't remember the specifics. I'm also a major video game analyzing in every regard, and the remakes for this game have been an absolute adventure to dig into. Characters, story, music, animations, even the damn UI. So much love was put into this game, and it shows.
1:31:48 A lot of the themes of FF7 are explorations of the philosophical idea of ‘eternal return’: that we are shaped by our experiences good and bad, and if we don’t accept that we are the sum of our bad moments as much as our good ones we are doomed to repeat ourselves. This is why I think ‘Return’ is the most likely name of the next game.
What happened with Cloud reminded alot to me with the mechnics of zero escape time dilemma. Where he "Jumped" inside another body of his from another worldline.
@1:34:25; Since you guys were talking about having multiple modes of air travel, here's my bet: After you try to get the Heavy Materia on the space shuttle rocket as it's about to take off, but the space shuttle rocket takes off *with the party in it,* so the party commandeers it to go away from Meteor, and go travelling around in Space, to potentially visit the other planets of the system (Perhaps to discover that Meteor is already on its way as they get near, then turn back.). Just as a miniature section of visiting other planets, maybe some side quests involved with that. Maybe the team gets to name the planets with Bugenhagen somehow taging along for the ride? Then, you go back to FF7's planet, fight Safer Sephiroth...and he pulls off Super Nova - using the names of the planets from *that* galaxy's names of the planets.
We could always have the scene with Aeriths death with the north crater. It could be why Cloud has his mind break or at least contribute to it as in the OG Cloud gives the Black Materia because of what Sephirtoh says. So Sephiroth could use her death against him to get him to break enough so he can get control and get the materia
The third game will start with heading to iccle inn, and the info dump/story time moment (like the flashback scene in kalm) will be the hojo/sephiroth/aerith tapes in Ghast's lab.
Not really. We know it's not a multiverse but rather a creation of the Lifestream. Small worlds created when something doesn't go as intended and will eventually get erased and returned to the Lifestream.
having beaten the game for the first time recently, my perception of Cloud seeing the sky tear is something like "cloud is in both worlds at the same time", kinda like the actions of the cloud in prime time and the actions of cloud in AerithLives are synced up or something
I saw on Landi Lodges ending explained video that he thinks Sephiroth made all the mini pocket worlds at the end of Remake so he could create a feeding ground of despair. Because you see all the people are scared and depressed they know they are gonna die because there is the tear in the sky and they know their world is ending. Landi Lodge suggested that Sephiroth is feeding on this despair which is increasing his power exponentially.
So I think the first chunk of the final entry is going to focus on everything that’s been setup with Wutai in Intergrade & Rebirth. It’s a very good way to block off the party from reaching the Northern Crater and gives us time to get to play with a full party, focus further on Cloud’s mental state, etc. The world is already on a precipice of chaos with a renewed war on the horizon. Imagine the emotional gut punch for the people of the Planet if that war is averted, only for the Meteor to show up days later? The negativity would be off the charts, absolutely what Sephiroth wants.
I just finished. The way I see it is the time line is no longer bound to fate but time as it is has already happened technically for example cloud cannot be cloud without Zack dying and the reason for those existing is the main timeline. The sky rift seems more like a means of worlds uniting or possible for union and in turn that world dies. Kind of like Xenoblade maybe
0:01: ⏱ Discussion on the evolving storyline in FF7 Rebirth, particularly the concept of timelines and the altered reunion in part three. 9:15: 💔 Discussion on unsatisfying ending for newcomers due to lack of context from original game experience. 17:22: ⚔ The SC manipulated us to defeat the Whispers, gaining control over Destiny and altering its interpretation. 25:51: 🎮 Discussion on the impactful changes in the game, potential character awakenings, and concerns about flashbacks. 34:07: 🤯 Analysis reveals intentional vagueness in Final Fantasy 7 Remake's ending, leading to multiple unanswered questions. 42:42: 💭 Interpretation of the ending suggests protagonist's unreliable narration and potential deception about character's fate. 50:53: 🔍 Analysis of Aith's character in the ending scene with Cloud raises questions about her identity and intentions. 58:30: 🌌 Interconnected worlds hold a single crucial item, manipulated by the cetra and ghee for concealment. 1:06:24: 💥 Speculation on potential collaboration between Cloud and Sethro to confront Jenova, highlighting Sethro's disruptive intentions. 1:13:53: 🎮 Speculation on the next game's storyline and starting point after Rebirth's ending. 1:21:55: 🎮 Speculation on character development and potential storyline twists in Final Fantasy Remake series. 1:29:45: ⏳ Evolution of party and characters through technology, impacting gameplay progression in a new way. 1:37:18: 🎮 Discussion on the exceptional quality of the game, exceeding expectations and potential hints for the third installment. Recap by Tammy AI
Thanks for uploading your FF7 Rebirth ending discussion with Max and chat! It was a lot of fun trying to piece this ending and story together and I can’t wait to see what Part 3 has in store for us!
What if Sephiroth was trying to hunt down every trace of Aerith in the lifestream, but the one place he was unable to reach her was the part that exists within Cloud's mind?
This would be super interesting because sephiroth only really exists because of clouds memories of him in AC. It’d be an awesome uno reverse on him if Aerith used that same tactic to catch sephiroth off guard
It's possible, especially if you consider that only when Aerith and Cloud are 'awake' in her dream and exit the house, only after that Sephiroth finds her. Even though Cloud is connected to Terrier/Zack world when he sleeps, Sephiroth never found them until they were awake in Aerith's dream.
It’s super obvious that the final aerith is a jenova manipulation. Not sure why so many ppl are struggling with that. I can’t wait for part 3 - seeing this all unravel is going to be epic.
I think the game structure will be the same as Rebirth, but with more story. Icicle region, rocketown region, wutai region, mideel region, bone village region, maybe midgar region, etc.
Great stuff Nico and man oh man that is an incredibly revealing informational find about that onetime theme being analyzed by Max’s composer friend. Well done Max for such attention to detail. The implications are big, especially when factored in with Aerith at the very end. Also can anyone please tell me what the song is at 50:16? Thanks.
I like how they brought up the cell degredation and thats why Tifa and Barret dont really confront Cloud about his weirdness because they are just assuming thats whats causing it.
I definitely think the game will start with the party going to the northern crater because in rebirth you get the nibelheim flashback and later in the game you return to nibelheim and when you revisit the northern crater at the end of part 3 everything goes down
@21:38; You forget that, if Sephiroth is able to take control of the Hooded Men like he can in FF7 ReMake and ReBirth, that gives him about 50 billion Sephiroths to 3 Billion Aeriths.
20:27 Sephiroth kind of spells it out. These worlds are destined to end. The greatest emotions during an apocalyptic event would be terror and despair. These are things that grow his power. So these worlds "end" and he absorbs that energy to power his goals. By reuniting these worlds, he can absorb them all at once. Just as he intended in thr original game.
I have not followed the FF7 remake series very much at all, but played the original. Hearing the discussion around 1:32 makes me think that each of the titles so far have had a subtitle beginning with the letter "R" and there is speculation on what the final subtitle will be. I am guessing "Reset" based on these few minutes of discussion.
Zach coming back to the church is after the events of Rebirth I think. Because when he leaves Cloud he says "Cloud, save her" so Zach has no idea she is dead. That's why he doesn’t have limit either.
.....
.....
Where do we even start??
Seemingly by the end
From the begining
Nomura BS strikes again
@@johans3164 not nomura, he isnt a writer. That was nojima. Cmon, just a quick search away
How about “Stop turning FF7 into Kingdom hearts”?
I love the idea that Max is just sitting around waiting for other people to finish Rebirth so he can talk more about it. Dood is a fiend for FF7 discussions!
thank the planet. he’s one of the only things keeping me sane waiting for these games to come out
That's what I've been doing
If you think im gonna sit here and listen to Max talk about Final Fantasy 7 for ANOTHER 2 hours, then you thought right
Me: I swear max has been on at least 5 different channels so far talking about the ending, lol
Max: ILL MAKE IT 50
Honestly I’m hear for it. The guy has been cooking like crazy and seeing other people hear about the theories is great
I just came here to see if Max shits on Genesis.
@@thatstheway2429 Max is onboard for the Gackt redemption arc
And I’ll eat it up every time!
@@oreotaku4017 "Gackt R͟e͟d͟e͟m͟p͟t͟i͟o͟n͟ arc"
I see what you did there.
Think the saddest things with tifa looking dead inside at the end is the fact that she just watched her best friend die, and now she has to watch her other one slowly degrade into someone she doesn't know until he dies too as far as she understands.
"The ending happened" - Nico 2024
And it was awesome
LOLLLLLLLLL!!!!
He is objectively correct.
The Tenth Doctor said it best, I think. "People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a nonlinear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff."
The most quotable Dr Who quote ever.
It all has to do with how the lifestream and the planet itself is mostly the memories of those who have lived. So it’s a tad bit more metaphysical than strictly timelines and alternate realities per se.
The fact that FF7 now canonically has the planet being something like a four dimensional entity is so wild and fascinating
@@sanddry738I think the scene where Sephiroth tells us that there is only one planet gave me a lot more confidence in this “timeline” stuff, since it eliminated all possibility of it being an actual multiverse.
I also think it’s an incredibly important point since Jenova and the Gi do not come from the planet, and their stories will be very important in part 3.
to quote a certain fey: “time is a weird soup”
back when the show was good :(
Timestamps:
33:22 Max joins the stream!
Legend
0:53 I think it's also important to note one thing that, not many people bring up. It was seemingly revealed in the FF7 Rebirth Ultimania that........the Reunion was ATTEMPTED at the end of Rebirth. Like, it wasn't just a big multiversal boss fight to cap off the end of the game and the scene with Aerith, according to Ultimania Sephiorth was basically doing his big bad master plan THERE and was apparently thwarted by Cloud, Aerith and the party. Now I know Sephiorth has got a back up and we still don't seem to be clear on what this shit is supposed to do, but whatever Sephiorth is doing in part 3.........is not the way he originally planned it. This is plan B we're talking about here, and I'm kind of curious to see what that will entail.
He wanted to reunite the worlds before casting meteor. Having all the "worlds" in one place maximizes the amount of potential energy he can absorb, giving him more power than his OG VII plan.
Cloud becomes Omni-Cloud
Cloud learns Omnislash
And Omnislash is basically "I cut reality open"
no he cuts himself because he is sephiroth
Love this idea!!
unbelievebly enough, the timeline rules seems to be similer to.... Homestuck, of all things. In Homestuck, there is one TRUE timeline, sometimes refer to as Canon, and whenever anyone travel in time to change the past they eiather work to create that timeline, or to diverge from it. Whenever a new timeline that diverge from the true timeline is created, it is considered a doomed timeline, and everyone and everything in it would eventually die. However, there are multiple instences where a doomed timeline is needed in order to help facilitate the true timeline.
homestuck is some bullshit though lol
What's Homestuck? Another game??
@OneColdRepublican it's a webcomic with some game logic in it. Very infamous for toxic fanbase. I actually don't recommend reading it, I used to like it, but not anymore.
@@OneColdRepublican
Webcomic. First few Acts are pretty funny but then it goes off the rails and lands on another track you never knew existed. 4 internet friends play a videogames that ends the workd and more shenanigans are involved. You just gotta read if you want to comprehend.
Somebody had to say it !!!!
The whole “re-doing” of the ending (Advent Children, etc.) through learning how to accept grief also continues to track Neon Genesis Evangelion Rebuild. I really feel like that was the template for the whole FF7R project.
Might be coincidence cuz most of the main plot was actually an idea Nojima started plotting 10 years after the OG came out. There is a lot of similarities for sure. But when FF7 fans talk about the "30 Year Cook" they ain't lying
No it was how do we bring aerith back to life. lol
@@jeffwolfplays0513she’s dead tho
@@mindxfuneral which version? lol
I think my favorite part about this game is how Sephiroth is legitimately annoyed and angry at Aerith.
He’s like, “this bitch is trying to thwart me.” It’s so satisfying seeing that smug, sadistic piece of shit get outsmarted 😂
“No one outsmarts me! I’m the outsmarterer here!” - Seph-dawg, probably
"How many times do I have kill you!?"
At least once more.
@@thunderflare59 I love to think by the end of this story, while Cloud has been dealing with Sephiroth PTSD, Sephiroth starts experiencing Aerith PTSD.
Aerith: “I’m waiting, Sephiroth.”
@@thatstheway2429dude. I’ve been laughing for the past 10 minutes straight. Solid gold comment here. “Get back here ya little bi-h. Imma give you despair!”
WILL THIS FREAKING FLORIST PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE, GOD DAMN GIRL ENOUGH
I believe it was Nojima that said they were inspired by Carl Jung's philosophy on the Collective Unconscious? That would help explain the story perfectly, and even fits into the concepts that make up the original game. I'm pretty sure these "alternate timelines" are purely a metaphysical space comprised of the world's collective memories, emotions, dreams, etc. The scenes at the end that display the rainbow effect are absolutely transpiring in Cloud's head or something along those lines. I absolutely don't buy into the explanation of the multiverse in the same sense of how multiverses are generally described.
Well you know what?, the story wont be that complex everyone is overdoing it with the theories
@@zacatkinson3926 It'll be a lot simpler than people are expecting. It's really just going to be an extensive embellishment of the original story. The lifestream and Cloud's subconscious are really the only key factors that I feel people are missing, and getting dragged into the notion of some "alternate realities". But it does set up well for some good surprises.
@@ExploitedWorker I don’t agree on that sorry
@@zacatkinson3926 on what, exactly?
@@ExploitedWorker I wish to believe that, I really do, but it won't turn out like that. Simply because they went all in already with all of it. If it was "simple" it would just lead the whole of Rebirth ad absurdum. I can buy into the Zack projected into the fight at the end being in "Cloud's head", but what about all the scenes where he does stuff on his own...? Like how is that supposed to happen just in Cloud's head. It feels like an appropriate theory if we are talking about everything weird that happens when Cloud is on screen, but what about every other scene that doesn't make any sense? Like they absolutely made clear it IS some pocket dimension bs writing.
To answer your question, Cloud at the end is thinking Aerith is going to stay at The Forgotten Capital to continue praying. She directly says to him that she’ll continue praying to stop meteor and leave the rest to him. That’s the story she’s selling to Cloud to explain why she’s not tagging along. Cloud questions it one time when he asks “what if something happens?” and she says “then I’ll send up smoke!”, and Clouds like “okay I’ll keep a look out”.
He doesn’t accept her death. She knows his mind is too fragile right now to accept it and that’s why she does this. He will have to come to terms with it later in part 3.
It’s brilliant because this denial mirrors the way many players reacted to Aeriths death originally. I love Nojima, Nomura and all these devs. They’re not afraid to take huge risks because they’re confident in their vision, and I’m also confident that this set up will pay off beautifully in part 3.
That's what happened in the OG, so there's no reason for her not to do it now.
I'm not sure its really a "story" she selling to him though. If you look at the white materia, in the OG when it fell it was pale green, meaning she managed to activate it according to Bugenhagen it glows green when it has been activated, but it is very clearly still white when it falls from her ribbon in Rebirth.
That could definitely be it, and makes Cloud's delusion in some ways more simple to understand. If he literally thinks he saved her and she didnt die, then the only question is - is the Aerith we see talking to him from actually in the lifestream and not just in the 'world where she lived' or whatever? I think that might be the trick of it, and it might actually explain why Red senses her - for us to know that he feels her presence in the LS, not in another world or whatever.
Idk, then it makes me wonder how Aerith is able to be visible to Cloud unless they are trying to say thats just something she can do, and Cloud is now attuned to seeing the lifestream because when Sephiroth gave him the indirect ability to see between worlds, we realize that these "worlds" are just the lifestream and an amalgamation of memories, experiences, etc. anyway.
It will going to very very dark stories in part 3 when cloud realized aerith n zack is gone..
3:25 i interpreted it as the Aerith who died in the.....let's call it 'prime' timeline helping Cloud beat Sephiorth. It's why she says " I saw what you did there", referring to witnessing the other universe be created (it was also confirmed in the ultimania that Cloud SAVED Aerith and it wasn't ultimately part of a illusion (him saving her at the very least) and also why she fades away seemingly into the lifestream at the end of the battle. I can not 100% confirm this either but there is a strong possibility that 'prime' Aerith may have moved into the body of AU aerith. We've seen Cloud and Aerith specifically shown to be connected to their AU selves and Cloud was seemingly pulled into his AU body for the 'date' and then sent back. We see AU aerith being laid down to go to sleep, Cloud fights Sephiorth with 'prime' aerith and then goes back and we see him with AU Aerith and her 'waking up' why would she need to be 'asleep'? I think it was to possibly wait for 'prime' aerith to kind of hop into her body which is why she 'wakes' up at the end.
47:38 That's not the theme Max is talking about, he's talking about the scene where Aerith shows up to Cloud when the party is crying at the place where her body is laid to rest, you can hear a very somber and creepy music for like 5 seconds.
You know things are about to get serious when Max says: "we need to talk" 😂
Best collab I've seen since it's an impromptu one 😁
Max: "So, anyway, we've got Omni-Cloud over here doin--"
Nico: "...wait wait, Omni-who-now?"
What'd be cool? The empty materia becomes a summon materia, a materia that summons AERITH! Like we can Gilgamesh, Titan, etc.
We're never fully finishing rebirth are we?
probably not.
Nope
I bet we’ll feel the same after part 3
This got me 😪😴
Rebirth honestly might fuck with Tifa more than it does with Cloud. Tifa has her childhood friend doubt her just cause she survived, watches him go mad killing a bunch of guys then tries to murder her, gets swam around inside a weapon, nearly smooches Cloud while making up with him afterwards, gets hit with the rudest X to doubt by a ball riding grandpa, is forced to relive her worse trauma TWICE first revisiting Nibelhiem then more directly in the temple of the ancients, watches Cloud go insane again, her best friend gets murdered and now Cloud is full nutty mode and during ALL of this she has to be Clouds emotional support waifu WHILE nursing the emotional pain of Jessie Biggs and Wedge dying last game. Cloud atleast has the buffer of being coocoo for Cocoa Puffs if Cocoa Puffs was tall dark and sexy with beautiful hair, Tifa is a normal girl constantly getting beaten with trauma over and over and over again
Well we still have the reveal that they didn't really know each other as kids. That scene where child Tifa calls Cloud to play is explained in Ultimania. It's his recollection and not the truth. Probably Jenova again.
this... people are overly underestimating how tifa is broken mental health wise..
she hasnt fully recovered with her village trauma. she is in fact using cloud as a crutch to hold on to the last memories of that time when she was still the happy princess of the village. no answers, full of questions. like you said, she is a very normal girl swept along with all of this. thats why theres such a heavy emphasis on her being stuck with the past that almost every conversation she has with cloud is related one way or another on what happened in the village.
at the least cloud has links to whatever happened, tifa does not. she doesnt have closure on anything that happened and everything thats happening with cloud is just destroying whatever semblance of normalcy she is holding on to.
she would most probably break down first, shes gonna break down hard.
she and cloud are bound to fight like what happened at the start of rebirth but she would call him out in the most disrespectful way.
that would be used by sephi one way or another.
the gang would probably split at that point.
either tifa would leave or the gang would leave cloud or cloud would go coocoo and leave the gang.
when that happens, its the perfect time to insert zack.
aerith would help tifa along the way. theres no way in hell that they are setting up aerith and tifa being pillow besties without using it somehow in 7r3.
but then, i trully believe that the devs are using the community as a big crowd sourcing for what to do in 7r3.
There's a really interesting side in Cloud and Tifa's relationship in Remake series that is kinda toxic underneath all the tenderness they shared. Tifa clearly clung into Cloud because he is the only people from Nibelheim who survived beside her. Every conversation with him is about their hometown. It's kinda like, she doesn't want to move on. That's why it rattles her when Cloud shared his story about the incident that's different from her perspective. It'll shatter her well being if her crutch maybe isn't the one she knows from her village. So when she swam in the Livestream she kinda get the encouragement to confront, maybe from Omni-Aerith, because if not Cloud will be gone for good. And she did! When Cloud corroborated her story and being open about his own problem, she's willing to help and also move on from her trauma. But the ending happens and she's just lost now. Cloud's gone insane and she's recently just lost her best friend. She's probably gone back to her tendency to latch and keeping the broken mess of a person Cloud is because it is her coping mechanism. Cloud is the only prove to her that she's Tifa the little princess from Nibelheim. That she's the little girl who's waiting her SOLDIER prince to eventually save her like what the boy promised under the twinkling star.
Cloud and Tifa in Remake is a couple who's at first seems picture perfect, is a super fucked up because their inner deep trauma. They being together isn't going to help each party's we'll being because their innate desire to use one another to cope and run away into their own false realities. If they want to be together they really need to move on. To leave the Nibelheim incident behind for good once and for all.
Interesting. Now I'm interested to see that the lifestream sequence would be for bothe Cloud and Tifa and not just Cloud.
If I was Tifa I would’ve gone off it on Cloud! Like I want a full 30 minute cutscene of Tifa tearing into Cloud and never letting him get a word in, she deserves it!
Obviously spoilers
When Sephiroth is talking about worlds, he is talking about a person's mind.
A mind encompasses feelings, thoughts, emotions.
The biggest giveaway is the name of Chapter 14 "End of the world" as in End = Death World = Aerith.
Aerith's world has ended, she died.
In the latest Ultimania Nomura confirmed that he wanted to depict how Cloud's mind behaves when confronting a very awful situation, with that idea in mind we can infer that Cloud is actively suppressing Aerith's dead (just as he did it for Zack) with the help of Aerith within the lifestream at the exact same moment she died.
Devs are just trying to enforce us to discuss us which is nice, buy the Copium I am seeing that "aErIth iS aLivE" just sets all these people believing it to disappointment in part 3.
Although I do believe she will be back, just like Zack.
nah shes saved in another timeline/world
I wish it turned out like that, just an enhanced version of Cloud's state of mind and perception of reality, but how do you explain all the bs alternate timeline stuff that happens isolated from him? Like all the Zack stuff. How is that just in Cloud's mind? It was clearly made with alternate timelines and pocketdimensions in mind. All of Rebirth was about it.
But I would have very much liked, if it just was a spawn of Cloud's twisted and manipulated mind, just like it was in the OG, but they went all overboard already.
Regardless of the existence of the other worlds, the point is that the other worlds provide an out for Cloud's repression and make it more difficult to accept the truth: she died and they can't get her back. The mideel reveal is going to include her death as well as Zack's. @@dshearwf
An alternative theory, that I'm beginning to believe more now, is that Cloud is less crazy at the end of Rebirth than everyone thinks he is, us as the players and his own party included.
He's actually the only one seeing anything close to the truth and that's because of Aerith.
1) Aerith shows him it's possible to travel to an alternate world and shows him the crack in the sky during their dream date, and she totally does this on purpose seemingly to prepare him for the crack he sees at the end of the game. Is it to show him the world they're in is now doomed to fade away? Possibly.
2) Cloud is the only one who sees the version of her who's alive. Yes, I subscribe to the theory that Cloud, upon deflecting Sephiroth's sword, created another alternate world where Aerith actually survived. He's the only one she's able to tell that she's in fact okay. This is to ensure that Cloud doesn't actually go insane after losing her and follows down the same depressive/self-blaming path as OG.
Cloud's not hallucinating Aerith at the end. She's communicating with him from the other world she survived in and he's aware of this.
She's preparing him for some big chess move in Part 3, which is why she also gave him the empty white materia.
Sephiroth will still try to mess with his head, though, and let's not forget, the Black Materia is still at play.
I thought about that too. It's so obviously pushing the "Cloud's shattered mind" POV that we're accepting blindly that he's blocking the death.
On the other hand, this could just be the developers reassuring fans that, despite appearances, this is a mostly faithful remake and Cloud is bonkers.
agree 100%
This is what I think and have been saying all along. It’s an inversion of OGFF7’s plot.
In the original, all of Cloud’s teammates think he’s mentally unwell and can’t be completely trusted. This time, he’s still mentally unwell…but the only one who can see the truth. This makes his companions’ faith and trust in him a plot point. One that the outcome of the story will hinge on.
Their trust in him will be what determines how committed they are to their collective goal.
But does that add to the original story? The Devs have made their intention clear to enhance the original story from a thematic standpoint, and I feel that totally inverting that is when it gets too convoluted for its own good. I can get with them robbing us from our goodbye, only if it pays off with Cloud truly having to accept loss. Accepting the past and looking forward to the future by not letting your "fate" define you is what the story is really about. I really think no matter how crazy the Multiverse elements may seem, they are all in service of the themes of FF7.
@@SnoTangerine For me personally? Yes, it makes the story much better. It never made sense to me that in OG there wasn’t much rumination or reaction to Cloud’s manipulation by Sephiroth. Both the party and he did not make a good case for why he should be included in the journey north if he’s a legitimate danger to the rest of the party.
Here, Cloud actually manages to completely overcome Sephiroth’s mental manipulation and stop him from killing Aerith. Only he can see it, only he knows the truth (with Tifa possibly being able to as a well, considering she saw flickering images of Aerith bleeding and not).
Moreover, while I agree that FF7 was about coping with death, I don’t think it was ever about accepting the finality of it. FF7 has a legitimate afterlife where people regularly interact with the living and affect the “real”world. That’s nothing like what death is in our reality.
It’s a reality where the stored knowledge of long-extinct ancients survive aeons and animate gigantic monsters. A world where eldritch abominations sail the cosmos and have the capacity to suck the spiritual essence out of a planet.
Sephiroth has come back from the dead once (twice by my count if I’m accurately predicting how the 7R trilogy’s story will go).
So why not Aerith? Why can’t the “impossible” happen here when it happens regularly elsewhere? Because the fanbase is romantically attached to the big sad of having her die? Fuck that. Let’s save her this time.
I apologize if that last bit comes off as terse, it’s not directed at you. I just don’t buy or jive with the “life is precious because it’s finite” philosophy. I don’t accept the perspective that a story can only be good or affecting if it involves permanent death and “consequences”. I personally hope they go full-bore and let us rescue her and get Zack back. There are plenty of ways to add pathos and gravity to the story.
Still, if people need a sad *death*…One idea that I’ve been attached to, and an inversion I’d like to see is for a Sephiroth redemption, but where he STILL ends up dead by the player’s hand. He was such an underserved villain in OG whose history, character and motivations were never fleshed out. That it would be a twist I don’t see the fanbase predicting, ending up liking Sephiroth and still having to put him down. Hating him always felt too easy. I hope this time we truly empathize with him, feel the despair of what it is to be a slave to the people that raised you and then end up only a slightly more free puppet under your mentally manipulative, alien-horror “mother”.
When Nico pulled up a clip from an episode of Scrubs during the ending discussion I knew this was gonna be a doozy lmao
Don't worry Nico. You're a kingdom hearts fan. Exploring story uncertainty to you now is just another Deep Dive.
Funny enough, I think understanding KH lore seems like a piece of cake compared to FF7 Remake/Sequel saga.
With KH things are open ended with so much potential and possibilities. But with FF7 the devs and team have said this will lead to AC but to what degree? Things are drastically different compared to OG FF7. I don’t want a direct link to AC based on everything that’s happened. But we’re left with so many questions and we’ve yet to actually get into the deep plot of the FF7 story. Aerith’s death was really just the start of monumental moments to the story.
I will add onto your comment tacolex that kh's plot is, yeah open ended, but open ended in the same way you have just finished reading a book and you have no idea what the next book is gonna do, so not really weird or unusual at all. Following kh's progression of the plot is actually really really simple, the only actual problem with it is that it's a lot to remember since the series is so long and constantly brings back stuff, and also when it purposefully tries to be mysterious and bizzarre on purpose, which is with the end of DDD, kh3 and remind. For DDD once you realize the time travel is basically the same as Harry potter's time travel it becomes trivial, while kh3 and remind are still confusing/uncertaint since we have to wait till at least kh4 before things get revealed on stuff that happened there. The rest of the series doesn't have anything like it or rebirth and remake, which hopefully will still get explained properly next game
Please, FF7 Remake and Rebirth is much easier than KH. You don't necessarily have to play the other games/read the novels to understand what you NEED to understand and we know it will stick to just 3 games.
@@soul6733 what youre talking about isnt related to something being easier to understand or complicated than kh, but what youre referring to is how accessible ff7 is compared to kh (i was talking in terms of complicated endings to wrap your head around). in your point of view, kh is more complicated because it is a 20 years on going series, with many entries to it compared to just "one". if you wanted to read the 10th volume of a book series, of course thats not gonna make sense, and i think everyone will understand why that is a flawed idea to begin with. videogames are just generally expected to be possibly played standalone, to be more accessible to as many people as possible, but there's nothing wrong with making every entries important for the on going plot if you want to, just more ambitious. but anyway, that is also incorrect anyway, because now ff7 HAS become a game/series you cant really get the full experience and picture if you only play one game. for these remakes, you need ff7 og, crisis core, advent children, dirge, the novels, the mobile games AND both remake games. i didnt even know about the sephiroth backstory thing from ever crisis, and nico and max even talk about how information is being spread out like this. for ff7 i think its a possibly bad call, since i think most people dont care about side ff7 content, while it works well with kh since we know already every game will contribute to the plot and are chapters of the bigger story too.
I hope there right about the whole sepiroth game on the mobile to be the 3rd game start cause like kh, it insane. It still MUCH worse in kh but young sepiroth story sounds so interesting
I mean, if Cloud saved Aerith in one of these alternative timelines who are doomed to die, and he can see and speak with her just fine while staying in his actual timeline with everyone else, it makes sense he would be able to see other things from the aerith is alive timeline, including that timeline's tear in the sky. So the tear is really there for him and aerith, he's just justifying it as an hallucination, its not there for everyone else
The devs even said that the big TWIST with Cloud will be less of a 'unreliable narrator' and more of a 'unreliable world' so in this case CLOUD isn't crazy, the world is splitting apart at the seams and it seems now Cloud is one of the only people who can perceive it. Interesting twist on the original story.
Right, he can see both worlds at the same time, because he's been between worlds. And maybe that was the blessing Sephiroth gave him.
I'm more in this boat for the ending. Cloud exists in both timelines at the end (Remake & Rebirth Zack's where they're sleeping and wake up). This happened when Zack touches Cloud during the ending fight. Touching him pulls him away from the party members and in to a timeline where they are fighting Sephiroth. Sephiroth himself goes between timelines as you battle him. Sephiroth separates Zack and Cloud creating another timeline in which Zack fights him as "a" world is ending. Beats him and Angeal or Aerith saves him again and sends him to another timeline.
42:51 There's a couple of issues with the "Jenova-Aerith" Theory. The first is that any time there's an interaction with Jenova-as-(insert character) there is a Black Cloak or SOLDIER in the immediate vicinity. This is established in Kalm the first time Cloud sees Sephiroth in the Inn. They highlight the Inn Keeper specifically and we learn later that he's a former SOLDIER. "Glen" is also a Black Cloak.
Sephiroth does appear at times without Black Cloaks but there are Black Whispers involved at those times. There are no Black Cloaks or Whispers in that final scene.
The second is that you can hand off the Black Materia to Barret, Tifa, Red XIII or Cid in the OG.
It's established near Corel that Red XIII can sense far more than animals. I think it's suggested he can sense, to some degree, the lifestream.
The Jenova-Aerith theory has too many contradictions to work.
Good points except that Cloud himself is referred to Jenova and Sephiroth as a clone…because he is. At least from the persecute that he was injected with Jenova and Sephiroth cells with the goal of created a Sephiroth clone, initially deemed a failure by Hojo. (Ultimately he would be deemed a success though)
All of the clones you reference have Jenova cells. Well, so does Cloud.
I would say Red XIII does too but it’s never specified (as far as I know) whether Red XIII has Jenova cells or not. Either way, Jenova-Aerith makes sense if you include Cloud as a “hooded figure”. The only difference between those hooded figures and Cloud is that the hooded figures have all succumbed to extreme mako poisoning
@@Griever8686 and I admit that could be the case. I just don't personally think it is.
It wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
in remake ch13 beginning, cloud sees sephiroth with no cloaked guys and no whispers present, just straight up hallucinating. same thing happened in ch2 when the big midgar turns into nibelheim vision happens, neither were present but there is sephiroth. the difference is that in these times, only he can see him because it’s all in his head, like jenovaerith
red xiii having jenova cells might be similar to how they tried to do it to zack but it failed for some reason, which is why zack is seemingly immune to jenova’s influence
During the Jenova fight, Cloud says "come on, you've done this before. You can do it again" or something close to that
Remember in the Jenova Lifeclinger battle, Cloud says something like, "You've done it before, you can do it again." I took that as him remembering defeating this version of Jenova from the past.
The Bronco is going to get shot out of the sky (keeping to the original) due to the air traffic restrictions over the war.
They were meant to defy faith but ended up mainly still on track throughRebirth. Rufus orders the Bronco to get shot down in the OG and by kicking off the war he has essentially still made the order for the plane getting gunned down.
I wasn’t sure how this game was gonna end……. I did not expect it to be Steins;Gate though.
Steins Gate is like a million times more coherent though, FF7 is a jrpg plot and Rebirth is a (jrpg plot)^2
@@0y1onFF7R is coherent with its story. It's just that we are missing 1/3 of it so we don't have full knowledge and answers yet.
@@soul6733 So can you really say its coherent? Why so much grace? Would you accept reading a book full of swiss cheese holes? I've seen intrigue and mystery is built in many other series well. But the subversion is so on the nose in this game, its as if the devs are subverting you just for the sake of subversion.
@@McLovinYoMuffin Except it's not. The game does give you hints and explanations for what is happening. We just don't have answer to everything yet because we are missing one last part which will have additional explanation. Or do you perharps judge a book halfway in?
@@soul6733 The hints and explanations given are diluted by the parts of the story which are subversive and there to intentionally mislead the audience.
If it were a book I would naturally think... "This feels bad, I dont like this, something is wrong."
I'm just no longer willing to give them any grace. We are all putting our hopes that everything will make sense in pt 3, after looking at the other directors works I am lowering my expectations.
Other muti part series make grand stories work, but without the immense amount of subversion.
This has more of the makings of a convoluted disaster in the end and we grasp at straws to make it make sense.
A FF7 Rebirth discussion video with Max?! I’m here penguins.
I’m late but one more bit of evidence that seals maxs Omni cloud theory is in the last fight with jenova at the beginning cloud tells himself you did it before you can do it again and at surface level you can see it him talking about fighting jenova but I truly think that’s future cloud telling himself bro you been thru this before you’ll be fine u can do it and knowing everything we know it gotta be the second case and if it is it would be the craziest foreshadowing I ever seen and it all was in a quick dialogue in the beginning of the last fight
“I miss the steel sky” sounded much more poetic even if it wasn’t the correct translation
You reckon that scene with the two Naminés in KH CoM is going to happen with Aerith?
Like one's Omni Aerith and the other is Cloud's hallucination or worse Sephiroth/Jenova Aerith. And thet are trying to convince Cloud (Sora) to do two very different things while Cloud is confused.
the 30 year Cook got Nico Confused LOl
EDITED Hope we get to see the Gold Saucer dates before the of this week 😅
Anyway, given that last goodbye at the end, and how Cloud seems to believe that Aerith is alive and safe somewhere else, it seems to imply that this Aerith is a combination of an illusion and her from an alternate timeline; though her saying "Goodbye" at the end might just be Cloud's inner self expessing that deep down he knows that she's never coming back. Honestly I'm not too keen on the idea of her being brought back as some sort of force ghost that appears every now and again; it can very easily make her death feel like less of a significance if they strip us of the cold reality that none of them will be able to actually speak to her again, and it can be seen as disrespectful to her and the original game.
Now given what we know of the second half of the OG game, Tifa will probably play more of a protagonist role in part 3, which I'm hoping gets greatly expanded upon. But did anyone notice something strange when Tifa arrived at the alter; for just a brief moment there's static in her vision, and she seemed to perceive a scene very similar to what Cloud was seeing, of Aerith surviving, like she was briefly seeing what her heart desired at that very moment, much like Cloud. Could this have something to do with her very recent dip in a pool of Mako? Will this be brought up in part 3? I think I might have some idea on how this will play out in the next game:
Cloud won't necessarily see illusions of Aerith accompanying them; his current mindset is that he's absolutely certain that she's safe somewhere else after he saved her successfully, that he beautifully played his role as the hero he promised Tifa he would become. He is in such absolute denial that he has failed to make good on this promise even after becoming as powerful as he is today, and that it cost one of his most precious companions life. He can't accept that, that he is an unmitigated failure of a hero. Thus the sad reality was blocked out almost completely, replaced with nothing but success in this last endeavour.
Now Tifa on the other hand knows the truth in her head, that her friend that she grew to love is no longer with her; but her heart, much like Cloud's, is filled with a desire to see her, alive and well. Cloud won't be the one who will be frequently haunted by illusions of Aerith throughout part 3, because he's not stuck between acceptance and denial, unlike Tifa. It's because Tifa is stuck with her desire to see Aerith that I believe that she will be the one constantly seeing Aerith's image flashing in and out of her vision. It'll get stronger and more frequent as the story proceeds, to the point where she's eventually able to communicate with the illusion; a good time for this to happen is during her execution in Junon, where she's at her absolute lowest point, more so than even in the original. She comes to realise that the Aerith in front of her is not only just her illusion, but just another side of Tifa herself in the form of the one she deeply admired. Nevertheless the illusionary Aerith pleads with her not to give up, that she can still save Cloud; "If you didn't believe you could go on, I wouldn't even be here giving you this cheesy speech", she'd probably say 😉
I don’t know if this gets mentioned in the video or not yet, but I think it’s so interesting that Cid also doesn’t seem to care that Aerith is dead. Especially since he was the only one that didn’t go into the temple or the ancient city. I wonder if something happened to the rest of the party to affect their perception (most easily seen in Tifa’s version of Cloud holding Aerith) that doesn’t affect Cid.
Didn’t think about that, he does ask about Aerith but it’s still in an upbeat demeanour
My prediction is that, the cid portion is when clouds world view shatters, putting him in a catatonic state, then later he just vanishes, and Zack shows up and joins the party, they track cloud down, and Zack, tifa (and i highly suspect that omni aerith shows up honestly) they help cloud and he awakens into essentially omni cloud
I think Cloud's subconscious of blocking out Aerith's death was the glitching part. The scene with him letting her drift off in the water will happen in the 3rd game when Cloud's actual memories are unlocked. It's a great way to string along OG players, and a great reveal for new players.
i think we watched the timelines merge as sephiroth said into one where she does die, but cloud’s brain is so broken that he thinks she lives. the following scenes are intentionally confusing because they are playing up how bad he will lose his mind on the way to the crater, and we see aerith played by jenova and we will get to see how that truly works on the way to the crater as well, as the team watches him lose it. the early part of game 3 is gonna be dark, and we’ll be crossing some harsh and barren frozen lands while we do it which is just good storytelling
the mideel/lifestream event is going to set everything right, and the white materia (currentlu clear) will fill up with knowledge and help cloud overcome the control jenova has over his mind, letting him once and for all conquer his own cursed dna
54:21 I think this is Tifa trying to reject what she is seeing. Her mind doesn't want to accept what it's seeing but she does accept it before that battle.
A lot of people missed it. The black materia was indeed fake. It wasn't glowing.. The fake sephiroth picked it up, and summoned the whispers and found the real black materia. Then it glowed but dropped through his fingers. That was when aerith was like noooo! And cloud passed it back to sephiroth. That was the real glowing black materia
I think Max has lost the plot just a little bit due to slapping new theories over old theories each time a new bit of information is revealed. Needs to strip all that away and apply Occam's Razor, rebuild the theory from scratch with the totality of information available.
Take the Doylist approach to interpreting the narrative. The devs have said they won't fundamentally change the outcome of the game, nor its themes. What is the central theme of FFVII? The acceptance of death. How is that illustrated? Sephiroth rejects death and Aerith accepts death. That is the core conflict at play here, and always has been.
Sephiroth says that their world is destined to become part of the universe of death (the space beyond the edge of creation, as named in Ultimania), but he won't allow the world to end, nor will he allow Cloud to end. It's stated quite explicitly that his goal is to unify fractured spacetime and create eternity. Sephiroth's goal is to make an eternal world where nothing dies -- his Promised Land. Aerith's goal, as always, is to stop him, to live in the moment -- her Promised Land.
There's also the metanarrative element, which is quite simple. Just as the whispers in _Remake_ represent players' wishes to keep things the same, the unstable alternate worlds in _Rebirth_ represent players' wishes to change things. Ultimately those worlds are destined to end, and Aerith is destined to foil Sephiroth, meaning that players will also eventually have to accept reality -- Aerith and Zack died, and they died for a reason. There are things that you simply can't change. And this will reinforce the core theme of accepting death to players.
As for the alternate worlds, we essentially already have an explanation for them and how they operate. The Planet produces a multitude of worlds, rising from the Lifestream which is comprised of information -- thoughts and memories. Wishes and dreams people have produce these unstable worlds that deteriorate rapidly, bereft of spiritual energy, because hopes are simple, fleeting things.
Cloud was given Sephiroth's gift, so he can perceive these other worlds. And he's seeing the reality in which he saves Aerith and rejecting the reality in which he failed. Simple as that. Sephiroth wants to harness pain and suffering not necessarily to cause harm, but to convince Cloud to accept his interpretation of the Promise Land, a reality where nobody dies and nothing changes.
Personally i dont think he did lose the plot, especially when he said that "every body is wrong" and the part about breadcrumbs leading to dead ends.
You totally nailed it. I think there's a ton of head-spinning stuff with the insanity of the final chapter, but if you stay rooted in the themes of the story and characters like the devs have said, THIS is the conclusion we've got to come to.
In this same vein, how do you interpret Zack having autonomy among these worlds? I feel that that is what's tripping people up and causing a lot more overthinking. I think the best way I can think to tie it in is when Cloud falls into the lifestream in Mideel, and all the character-defining reveals and acceptance are happening, maybe this is also where the memory of the lifestream ifself becomes confused, rippling back through time and because Cloud's identity is confused with Zack's, that's why Zack is the one who is able to make decisions, splitting worlds and defying destiny. Maybe I'm off-base here, but I really fully agree with you with how this all will be simple and thematically resonant in the end. This is just the best way I can think of to factor Zack's experiences into that.
I think you might fundamentally misunderstand the themes of Final Fantasy VII but under the assumption that the game is about "the acceptance of death" and not celebrating life (though AC I'll give you as that entire movie is about Cloud accepting Zack and especially Aerith's deaths) this is a great theory. And I also agree that Max has gone a little off the deep end with how wild his theory has gotten.
I'd laugh so hard if they trolled everyone by ditching the naming convention and calling it FFvii Sephiroth's End or something stupid like that
it’s gonna be “Reborn” i think. one winged angel at the end of remake was called OWA: Rebirth, and at the time we didn’t think anything of it until the 2nd game was called that.. and the one in rebirth’s soundtrack was called OWA: Reborn. it makes sense that they would do that again to reward those looking
By the way, we can safely assume that Clouds flashbacks are just memories of real Cloud, but he doesnt realize it yet, because he is the omni Cloud through entire game.
He needs to awaken and show his heart can transform after Aeriths death, but also acknowledging it happened.
This is the moment he will surpass his limits and realize he is omni Cloud.
My all-time favorite cloud line from Advent children right before he ends sephiroth "I pity you you just don't get it at all THERE'S NOT A THING I DON'T CHERISH!!!"
Max is awesome; he helps to recall even the tiniest details from the various ff7 games and AC. I could listen to his theories for hours!
I imagine the timeline system for this game being more like a pipe with a sudden burst than a tree with branches, if that makes sense.
I don't like referring to these as timelines due to the connotation that the phrase has thanks to things like MCU and Zero Escape. I don't think they have the same functionality, and it can cause it to be more confusing when applying that logic due to the lack of fate in these medias and the constant traveling backwards in time to cause branches.
In remake and rebirth has one true flow of time, the one that Sephiroth describes as "fate", and depending on what the lifestream holds in it, strong memories and mako influence can cause a "burst" in fate, thus giving us a new set of circumstances that defy fate and lead the world to demise. Sephiroth is trying to combine these "bursts" to his liking (what exactly that is, I don't know), and he's able to access them due to his conscious being physically thrust into the lifestream after his original death at Nibelheim.
I also think this is what Aerith was referring to in the Temple of the Ancients when she said that the planet was "angry". They've established in the game that the lifestream is built using the memories, emotions, and consciousness of beings on the planet, among other things, and that when people die, they return to the planet to keep the cycle going. We saw a burst in fate at the end of Remake, the reality where Zack survives. If the lifestream is being forced to, essentially create two versions of everyone to compensate, wouldn't that run out the planet's lifestream? Hell, we see this exact thing take place in the reality where Zack goes to help Biggs at Reactor 6. Fate has a deviation, then has at least two deviations within the deviation. That's, as far as the players know, four consciousnesses per person on the planet. Of course the lifestream dried up during the reactor 6 split; its trying to account for these deviations from fate, and has no more energy to further fracture.
Edit: Rewording, bad ADHD makes me restate things or leave out entire halves of sentences while figuring out how to word things.
I came up with a theory...
1.Zach in the main timeline because of the flourishing flowers. In every alternate "timeline", the plant life is dead.
2.Omni Aerith has a body now in the "multiverse" because Cloud saved a version of it.
3.Omni Aerith is the one that tell Cloud that everything is okay. She did this to mess with Sephiroth's plan. Sadly, in doing so Jenova can use it.
4.BUT it is Jenova at the end (After the battle, by the pool, and by the plane before takeoff)
5.I think it Omni Aerith is the one who say goodbye
I know a lot of people, include you, have come to this conclusion but I just want to put my twist on it
I don’t mind them having Ever Crisis contain relevant info. To me it's not really all that different than having this kind of stuff in Ultimania's, novels, prequel games, and other extra materials.
That’s just how a lot of Japanese media seems to be. Tons of games, manga, all have data or guid books.
Love the deep dive
Although I feel like I had to take a shot each time Max said "promoting"
Gahhh i freakin love all these rebirth discussions and deep dives into things.
16:00 Dude, the crack in the sky is just in the 2nd timeline where Aerith survived. It's not in the prime timeline. Cloud is seeing the 2 different worlds superimposed on top of each other. So Aerith and the crack are both real in that 2nd timeline, which only Cloud can see.
Exactly, thank you.
I wonder how the ending of Part 3 will differ from the original.
Long awaited crossover is here! Nico will never get off the crazy FF7 train and im all for it lol
Max says in the final scene on the hillside Aerith is never there unless Cloud is looking at her - not true. After the Bronco flies away, we see Aerith's POV, standing alone, Cloud is long gone in the plane, and she's still there and even says, "Goodbye" to no one around. If this is supposed to be Jenova, that really makes no sense and is just bad storytelling.
Yes agreed
What’s so crazy to me about the Remake series is how everyone is at different points when it comes to theories.
People new to FF7 experience the concepts totally new. OG FF7 players see some of the themes and how things are changing. And people who know more about the full Compilation of FF7 content know about the finer details and possibly where things are going.
(Example like how the lifestream/worlds works and wtf is going on with Aerith and Sephiroth)
It’s honestly so fun to watch different people’s conclusions and theories. Also so surprised and glad to see Max and Nico talk about things. (47:53 HOLY SHIT the fact he got Alex Mukala himself to analyze that music is crazy. Dude does great musical breakdowns of songs.)
I think Omni-Aerith is who Aerith is talking about when she says she can’t wait to meet her “future self.” Her future self is dead, but Aerith foresees some power and wisdom in it, even if she isn’t fully aware in the moment what that means for her
I knew of the original death scene, but in a weird way? I watched my brother play this game when I was young, like 9-10. I would sneak downstairs and watch him play, and eventually, I got pulled in. I remembered Aerith dying, but I didn't remember the specifics.
I'm also a major video game analyzing in every regard, and the remakes for this game have been an absolute adventure to dig into. Characters, story, music, animations, even the damn UI. So much love was put into this game, and it shows.
Cloud will see Aerith’s death in the northern crater.
1:31:48 A lot of the themes of FF7 are explorations of the philosophical idea of ‘eternal return’: that we are shaped by our experiences good and bad, and if we don’t accept that we are the sum of our bad moments as much as our good ones we are doomed to repeat ourselves. This is why I think ‘Return’ is the most likely name of the next game.
This SCREAMS Strangers of Paradise timeloop like FF1 to FF7. Where you are playing characters trying to regain previous memories.
What happened with Cloud reminded alot to me with the mechnics of zero escape time dilemma. Where he "Jumped" inside another body of his from another worldline.
@1:34:25; Since you guys were talking about having multiple modes of air travel, here's my bet:
After you try to get the Heavy Materia on the space shuttle rocket as it's about to take off, but the space shuttle rocket takes off *with the party in it,* so the party commandeers it to go away from Meteor, and go travelling around in Space, to potentially visit the other planets of the system (Perhaps to discover that Meteor is already on its way as they get near, then turn back.). Just as a miniature section of visiting other planets, maybe some side quests involved with that. Maybe the team gets to name the planets with Bugenhagen somehow taging along for the ride?
Then, you go back to FF7's planet, fight Safer Sephiroth...and he pulls off Super Nova - using the names of the planets from *that* galaxy's names of the planets.
We could always have the scene with Aeriths death with the north crater. It could be why Cloud has his mind break or at least contribute to it as in the OG Cloud gives the Black Materia because of what Sephirtoh says. So Sephiroth could use her death against him to get him to break enough so he can get control and get the materia
The third game will start with heading to iccle inn, and the info dump/story time moment (like the flashback scene in kalm) will be the hojo/sephiroth/aerith tapes in Ghast's lab.
9:20 I loved the OG story more than words, and these new endings still made me say that.
Missed opportunity not saying, "He sends his Space Ghosts Coast-to-Coast to find the Black Materia."
All I can really say about all this is the multiverse is a concept about which we know frighteningly little.
Not really. We know it's not a multiverse but rather a creation of the Lifestream. Small worlds created when something doesn't go as intended and will eventually get erased and returned to the Lifestream.
having beaten the game for the first time recently, my perception of Cloud seeing the sky tear is something like "cloud is in both worlds at the same time", kinda like the actions of the cloud in prime time and the actions of cloud in AerithLives are synced up or something
Thank you so much for posting this, fr. Max Dood's voice shows up about 33 minutes in
* Cloud kisses Jenova-Aerith * in Part 3
Sephiroth: WTF are my doing with my mom Cloud??
I saw on Landi Lodges ending explained video that he thinks Sephiroth made all the mini pocket worlds at the end of Remake so he could create a feeding ground of despair. Because you see all the people are scared and depressed they know they are gonna die because there is the tear in the sky and they know their world is ending. Landi Lodge suggested that Sephiroth is feeding on this despair which is increasing his power exponentially.
I don't think there are timelines per se. Just different memories from the Lifestream which can be considered different worlds.
So I think the first chunk of the final entry is going to focus on everything that’s been setup with Wutai in Intergrade & Rebirth. It’s a very good way to block off the party from reaching the Northern Crater and gives us time to get to play with a full party, focus further on Cloud’s mental state, etc. The world is already on a precipice of chaos with a renewed war on the horizon. Imagine the emotional gut punch for the people of the Planet if that war is averted, only for the Meteor to show up days later? The negativity would be off the charts, absolutely what Sephiroth wants.
I just finished. The way I see it is the time line is no longer bound to fate but time as it is has already happened technically for example cloud cannot be cloud without Zack dying and the reason for those existing is the main timeline. The sky rift seems more like a means of worlds uniting or possible for union and in turn that world dies. Kind of like Xenoblade maybe
fantastic video! really enjoyed listening to it
If Sephiroth overcomes Jenova, he too needs to finish unsettled conflict Jenova has with Minerva. Enter Genesis.
Isn't Minerva dead?
0:01: ⏱ Discussion on the evolving storyline in FF7 Rebirth, particularly the concept of timelines and the altered reunion in part three.
9:15: 💔 Discussion on unsatisfying ending for newcomers due to lack of context from original game experience.
17:22: ⚔ The SC manipulated us to defeat the Whispers, gaining control over Destiny and altering its interpretation.
25:51: 🎮 Discussion on the impactful changes in the game, potential character awakenings, and concerns about flashbacks.
34:07: 🤯 Analysis reveals intentional vagueness in Final Fantasy 7 Remake's ending, leading to multiple unanswered questions.
42:42: 💭 Interpretation of the ending suggests protagonist's unreliable narration and potential deception about character's fate.
50:53: 🔍 Analysis of Aith's character in the ending scene with Cloud raises questions about her identity and intentions.
58:30: 🌌 Interconnected worlds hold a single crucial item, manipulated by the cetra and ghee for concealment.
1:06:24: 💥 Speculation on potential collaboration between Cloud and Sethro to confront Jenova, highlighting Sethro's disruptive intentions.
1:13:53: 🎮 Speculation on the next game's storyline and starting point after Rebirth's ending.
1:21:55: 🎮 Speculation on character development and potential storyline twists in Final Fantasy Remake series.
1:29:45: ⏳ Evolution of party and characters through technology, impacting gameplay progression in a new way.
1:37:18: 🎮 Discussion on the exceptional quality of the game, exceeding expectations and potential hints for the third installment.
Recap by Tammy AI
Thanks for uploading your FF7 Rebirth ending discussion with Max and chat! It was a lot of fun trying to piece this ending and story together and I can’t wait to see what Part 3 has in store for us!
I've been saying Return since end of remake. If you want an idea about theory crafting, you should check out Twin Peaks and Twin Peaks:The return
I know this is late, and you probably want see this, but even tho we didn't get to see the death but I still cried for it, and it still him
What if Sephiroth was trying to hunt down every trace of Aerith in the lifestream, but the one place he was unable to reach her was the part that exists within Cloud's mind?
This would be super interesting because sephiroth only really exists because of clouds memories of him in AC. It’d be an awesome uno reverse on him if Aerith used that same tactic to catch sephiroth off guard
It's possible, especially if you consider that only when Aerith and Cloud are 'awake' in her dream and exit the house, only after that Sephiroth finds her. Even though Cloud is connected to Terrier/Zack world when he sleeps, Sephiroth never found them until they were awake in Aerith's dream.
It’s super obvious that the final aerith is a jenova manipulation. Not sure why so many ppl are struggling with that. I can’t wait for part 3 - seeing this all unravel is going to be epic.
I think the game structure will be the same as Rebirth, but with more story. Icicle region, rocketown region, wutai region, mideel region, bone village region, maybe midgar region, etc.
Great stuff Nico and man oh man that is an incredibly revealing informational find about that onetime theme being analyzed by Max’s composer friend. Well done Max for such attention to detail.
The implications are big, especially when factored in with Aerith at the very end.
Also can anyone please tell me what the song is at 50:16? Thanks.
My title is Remembrance, thematically sound with the memories of the Lifestream being the spine of the story.
I like how they brought up the cell degredation and thats why Tifa and Barret dont really confront Cloud about his weirdness because they are just assuming thats whats causing it.
I definitely think the game will start with the party going to the northern crater because in rebirth you get the nibelheim flashback and later in the game you return to nibelheim and when you revisit the northern crater at the end of part 3 everything goes down
Where is the video that they talk about, Jenova Lifeclinger/Aerith theme?
@21:38; You forget that, if Sephiroth is able to take control of the Hooded Men like he can in FF7 ReMake and ReBirth, that gives him about 50 billion Sephiroths to 3 Billion Aeriths.
20:27 Sephiroth kind of spells it out. These worlds are destined to end. The greatest emotions during an apocalyptic event would be terror and despair. These are things that grow his power. So these worlds "end" and he absorbs that energy to power his goals. By reuniting these worlds, he can absorb them all at once. Just as he intended in thr original game.
Multiple timelines... That's about life in general. Your choices will shape your reality aka. shift you from one timeline to another.
Yes bro I had to pause the game My eyes were too watery to fight the battle the music just hit me in the feels an the flood gates opened
1:10:25 And what if that materia ends up being the Pre-Emptive materia, the one materia that made the first strike on Sephiroth possible in Nibelheim.
I have not followed the FF7 remake series very much at all, but played the original. Hearing the discussion around 1:32 makes me think that each of the titles so far have had a subtitle beginning with the letter "R" and there is speculation on what the final subtitle will be. I am guessing "Reset" based on these few minutes of discussion.
Zach coming back to the church is after the events of Rebirth I think. Because when he leaves Cloud he says "Cloud, save her" so Zach has no idea she is dead. That's why he doesn’t have limit either.
What if the Cloud we have now is from an alternate timeline
1:32:30 FF7 Revelation which either means The End or Cloud remembers everything and answers reveal.