@GrimJackal Its on BltzZ's channel, 3 hour long spoiler discussion with Maximilian, Babyseal, Sleepezi, Night sky prince, and Bltzz all cornerstones of this community it was an awesome pod episode one of the best yet! Would also recommend Easy allies podcast episode with max if you haven't checked it out!
@@GrimJackal Its on BltzZ's channel, 3 hour long spoiler discussion with Maximilian, Babyseal, Sleepezi, Night sky prince, and Bltzz all cornerstones of this community it was an awesome pod episode one of the best yet! It has not been directly uploaded yet so instead of clicking videos check livestreams section Would also recommend Easy allies podcast episode with max if you haven't checked it out!
@@GrimJackalIts on BltzZ's channel, 3 hour long spoiler discussion with Maximilian, Babyseal, Sleepezi, Night sky prince, and Bltzz all cornerstones of this community it was an awesome pod episode one of the best yet! It has not been directly uploaded yet so instead of clicking videos check livestreams section Would also recommend Easy allies podcast episode with max if you haven't checked it out!
0:47: 📚 Expert mythology author discusses diverse topics with a long-time friend on Seal Team 7. 14:49: 📚 Exploration of Norse connections in Final Fantasy VII Rebirth reveals depth and reverence for mythology. 28:49: 🌿 Mythological symbolism in the game includes references to life, death, and rebirth, with hidden meanings in various aspects. 43:09: 🔮 Connection between Greek and Norse mythology in Final Fantasy VII represents the idea of aith as a soul Maiden. 57:47: 🌈 Exploration of different scenarios where the character Aith either dies or is saved, impacting the storyline and symbolism. 1:11:26: ⚔️ Interpretation of Final Fantasy VII storyline and potential impact on character development. 1:25:55: 🤔 Unanswered mysteries surrounding Cloud's possession of materia in Final Fantasy VII. 1:40:07: 💡 Analysis of the ambiguous ending in the series, potential impact on viewer interpretation, and creator's cryptic hints. 1:55:24: 🌈 Analysis of rainbow iconography in Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, with caution against overinterpretation. 2:08:54: 🧠 Exploration of stages of anima development for males towards self-improvement. 2:23:28: 🎮 Favorite moments in the game, including the end of chapters 13 and 14, North mythology elements, and Kate Sith. 2:37:51: 🎮 Analysis of a character in Final Fantasy VII as a key player in preventing a sacrifice and underestimation by Sethro. 2:52:38: 💭 Exploration of negative Live Stream concept in FFVII:AC and its relation to the world's state. Recap by Tammy AI
I appreciate you Clarke. You clearly just CANNOT get enough of this and it shows in how prepared you are for these discussions!! It’s more than just holding us over like you all did after remake, you’re literally holding us this time. Helping us grieve because that’s exactly what they did was make us grieve in the hardest way.
I really enjoyed your discussion with Max and the guys last night but your one on ones are by far the most interesting. Really good discussion. Probably the best and most enjoyable I've had the pleasure to listen to so far. Really riveting stuff.
Ok I'm at 0:36 and I already recognize one of my favorite songs from Rebirth. My goodness, how long I stayed in that cabin and how many times I came back to listen this track.
I've been pretty consumed with Rebirth discussions and this has to be the best one I've seen. Rather than just looking at it in a vacuum, it considers various philosophies, visual language, metaphor and how literary devices etc have been used historically/culturally.
Great discussion! Thank you both for this. I absolutely love the idea that Jenova arrived on Gaia initially on a first summoning of meteor as a failed attempt by the Gi to retire their existence. That's officially going into my head canon for the lore of this story until anything otherwise is spelled out!
I have got to say man, you are one of my favorite Final Fantasy VII fans, even when you don't fully agree with a thought one of your guests has, you always highlight the value in their interpretation. It's such a breath of fresh air to find common decency and healthy discussion on the internet. I have only one friend who plays these games and he is just starting chapter 12 as of this post, so I have had NOBODY to talk to about this stuff and your content is helping me get by while I try not to spoil anything for my friend haha. Keep up the great work man!
Probably nothing but when you talked about the Wutai War it reminded me of the truck scene where “Cloud” is sad the war is over so he can’t be a “hero”. With a new war returning and his fractured mind state I wonder if there will be a callback to that in a way that could cause issues with Yuffie
Excellent discussion! Thank you so much for all the time you dedicate to FF7's content, and the amazing people you bring to discuss it. Some interesting things to wonder about where things are going: - Cloud's sword has a green glow as he is swinging it to block Sephiroth's attack at the altar. So... What does that symbolize exactly? We know that Holy in OG for some reason turns green if the prayer is answered. Is the green the lifesteam or something else? So perhaps the empty materia will have not only Cloud's memories and dreams but also Aerith's somehow, since at the ending the materia reflects clouds(Cloud) and earth(Aerith). - The two whale weapons definitely have a major role in part 3, but being two we can assume that one will be for Cloud and the other for Tifa, helping them to leave the lifestream sequence, although one of the weapons was wounded by Sephiroth in Rebirth, so what will that cause after or during the lifestream sequence? That wound could enable Sephiroth to interfer the Lifestream sequence, making it unstable, only to fail/be stopped by the real Cloud that found himself. Another thing we could consider too that both weapons glowing at the ending of Rebirth could be the trigger for the other weapons to start "booting" or to start some other type of planet failsafe? Maybe that was just their way of repelling the arbiters, by being together that glow will keep them safe until the constant attacks stop. Wondering too if the whale at Corel's reactor was there in case Tifa fell into it, but Sephiroth's plan was dedicated to Gongaga's in particular. - When the robed men start migrating from Nibelheim at the ending of Rebirth, there is a shot where we can see a very strange concentration of arbiters from afar. We can easily miss in the scene. Wonder what they were doing there, and where/why.
I get caught up thinking about how this story ends with eliminating Jenova which clearly needs to happen for a resolution. Sephiroth is already in the life stream infecting it and cloud can’t ever die or he will pollute it as well. And then there’s Zack who also has Jenova cells.
this video single-handedly restored my interest in the remake trilogy-especially the cycles. hoping that if remake is spring, rebirth is summer-like a vacation which explains the onslaught of minigames-reunion (three will probably be reunion, right?) is fall and winter and hopefully we get a focus on quality storytelling.
I really hope you touch base on Mideel theory. That all events up to part 3 are happening in Mideel section in Clouds mind. Multiple worlds can “bubble” in ones mind if left in the state of Cloud in lifestream. Zack constantly appearing, Aerith living, the fight with Fate as a form of Cloud not yet accepting the truth can all be created by Cloud to cope with events he experienced. If the merchant in Mideel has 5 stamp dogs as pets instead of white chocobo im going to flip out.
Doubt that they would go the “its been all a dream” route. It deligitemizes the adventure so far. Never a good idea in fiction to do this. I’d drop that theory if I were you hahaha..
Love the Monkey Jello Gallagher perspective on everything FF related. He, along with Birds of Play and Alleyway Jack, are underrated creators in this community
i had noticed playing through it again, that the crumbled structures and stairs in the cave of the GI look very very similar to the structure and staircases in the temple of the ancients. i’m supprised no one has spoke of this yet.
My takeaway from interlude is the lifestream as we know it "composed" of memories which can be manipulated into simulating worlds the way VR attributes can have real, physical impacts (summons). While normally the lifestream guides it's own simulations (Life/Death/Rebirth), a prime mover can motivate the direction of these simulations. I think Aerith and Sephiroth can create their own side simulations in the lifestream itself as they attempt to create or discover a way to impact the "Prime" simulation the lifestream is running. A pseudo tug-of-war between the positiver and negative lifestream which is occuring in the tifa lifestream sequence and the final altar sequences. This is consistent with the cycle of rebirth, concept of Ragnarok, and Ygdrassil housing multiple "realms". I think Sephiroth is originally running simulations in the lifestream to find a way or world in which he "wins" and Aerith observes and hijacks this ability to help the party. I think this is similar to how Geostigma is conveyed when Sephiroth says "a world acccepting it's fate" compared to the acceptance of defeat in AC slowly breaking the world. Sephiroth likely wants to consume this prime simulation because it gives him what he needs to achieve true apotheosis. This would make me think the prime "remake" simulation is the final key to break the cycle. I'm leaning hard into this simulation theory and I think it's really relevant to Chadley and how (almost needlessly) relevant he is to the overall plot as a primordial form of what's happening on a grander scale between Aerith/Minerva vs Sephiroth/Jenova.
I'm SO glad that the harbinger was brought up as a talking point for time and space in this video. remake does in fact say that the harbinger is connected to all the threads of time and space that shape the planet’s fate. the white whispers and sephiroth reborn are talked about in a similar manner that suggests they don't operate under one linear space-time. the lifestream and all of her agents that we've seen thus far seemingly transcend time and space. so even if this was a traditional multiverse with countless worlds, there should still only be one lifestream. and i think the ultimania confirming that sephiroth reborn exists in all of the worlds at once confirms this transcendence above time without a shadow of a doubt. in the final battle he appeared in multiple different worlds all at the same time. usually other characters in fiction that transcend time so completely also exist in all different realities at once. it's basically like a state of omnipresence.
I was wondering what your thoughts were about what happened in the swamp when cloud gets taken under the water and Sephiroth seemingly gets summoned to save him from the Midgardsormr. Aerith makes a strange comment after as well. No one seems to mention this part in discussion probably because it’s early in the game. I feel like there is something important here.
@@JK-of3es It's certainly not impossible and the scene is deliberately ambiguous because it places the lone robed figure on an island beforehand to insinuate that this is the version of Sephiroth that appears in the water. I personally think it's post-AC Sephiroth (usually represented by black feathers or the wing, but in this case by the black strands of spirit energy).
Here's your Zack lives post lifestream memory sequence: Zack returns to Gongaga. Scarlet kills Cissnei. She dies trying to tell him the true name we never hear. Zack will work with Turks to help rebuild (repent) post-meteor crisis. Help restore Wutai? Two years later: between Zack, living Turks, and Cloud you have a device to retell BC/CC/AC all together after VIIR, all in the same character improved final draft fashion. Then onto Dirge for the same treatment. What if they are setting up to retell it all if they decide they want to after the trilogy?
To the point about Cloud A talking to Cloud B.. There is actually an instance where cloud while passed out encounters another “cloud” that tells him to get up
Some quick theories Wutai War is another way to create Negative Lifestream Whispers are the byproduct of Mako energy. It doesn't destroy Lifestream but changes it. Tifa mentioned this theory in Cosmo Canyon. Jesse is Jenova in Loveless and her dance with the blonde guy is our preview of how she will manipulate Cloud in part 3. I think Cloud already sacrificed himself in the timeline and it is what 7 seconds to the end references. This is what causes both Aerith and Sephiroth to go back to the beginning of Remake to save him. The theory of why Cloud might do that presented here is really good.
Great discussion as usual. Sorry to be annoying, but do you think you could add some kind of dark tinted background behind the chat section in the future? It's extremely hard to read because of the bright background.
I like the idea of the aerith loop 🔁 but it gets kinda wonky when you think about it to much . Reloop! Recycle! Recircle! Rejoin! Return! Retire! Reset! Revolve!
Cloud’s arc is the key imo. Whatever Cloud’s mind does, The Planet is also capable via Lifestream. The finale of Part 3 will basically focus in on that final fight between shirtless Sephiroth and Cloud… by having everyone help him defeat him. How? The same way Tifa was able to go into his subconscious to help piece his mind together. His rebuilt relationships will help completely eradicate Sephiroth from his mind. I believe if Cloud has to give up anything in the end, it’ll be his SOLDIER strength. He will need to find that strength, not from Jenova cells, but from his relationships and will to live
Whoa cool. I've got both of his ff7 mythology books, finished the norse, working thru the Greek rn 👌 adds that sweet sweet depth to my understanding of ff7. I wonder if you guys go over kabbalistic connections like the sephiroth and such and if those themes are big to the story. Ok ill shut up and watch the video now
How come some parts of this discussion have been cut out? I listened to this when it came out and got back into FF7 lore recently. Could've swore this discussion was about 3 hours.
What if the white whispers are literally holy and its already been activated in another world/timeline? Aerith isn’t physically manipulating them like we thought, but it’s using its magic in the form of white whispers (powered by white orbs under their hoods) to do things that would aid the planet (saving Tifa and the baby weapons)?
I think the Black and White materia are the same orb. I think Clear is also Void, and that's what the dots are between the Yin and the Yang. Black can symbolize Nothingness, but true Nothingness would lack even black, just as White points to Whole-y, but is merely white. I think in the space between worlds it is the potential for both, and that one could never exist without the other. That was my initial takeaway from the ending sequence. Cloud is still teetering between the two influences, leaning toward Septic-Rot. This is more based in philosophy than lore, but the lore comes from philosophy, so, just wanted to stick it out there. Feel free to eviscerate the idea. Thank you for your work. Edit: I wrote that before Gallagher drew up the Yin and Yang. Goddamnit.
Cloud got the Black Materia from destroying the Jenova clone of Sephiroth that had it in the Forgotten Capital. He just forgot all of that because he blocked out so much of the event. Could they be doing something different here? Maybe, but I expect that is mostly the same/Sephiroth put it there on purpose as a Chess move to break Cloud's mind completely later on.
So I am still trying to catch up on the current season since I was still drop in the middle of the game when it kicked off, but now that I've finished up the story of the game, I have an interpretation that I have yet to see anyone else quite hit on the same fundamental themes, but if it has come up in a later episode already, please let me know. The fundamental tenets of my current understanding of the story are that the developers have started and it's repeated again in how materia is formed, especially the black and white materia, is that lifestream is not just made of spirits or life force or whatever, but most importantly to this reading of the text is that the lifestream is made of memories. The second key idea to this reading is that fate has been destroyed, and therefore the future is not written. We also know that the lifestream carries memories from the future, but the future is no longer written, it is up to the choices and actions of strong willed individuals what the future looks like, and therefore the memories in the lifestream now can come from divergent futures. These divergent futures can kind of be seen as different worlds, but they aren't really a different world, they're a memory of a world that could be our could have been. The reason we see the whole splitting of worlds when Zack is deciding whether to save Biggs or Cloud is to show how a strong willed individual can create a divergent set of contradicting future memories. This kind of splits the flow of the lifestream like stripping the insulation off the end of a braided cable, so it goes from one coherent path made of tiny individual wires all bound together as one and indistinguishable from both the other strands and the cable itself, to a fraying collection of diverging smaller and weaker strands of wire that easily break and are less capable of carrying larger amounts of current. These divergent futures are not all created equally. Zack's futures for example shouldn't even exist at all, but because the Planet can no longer guide the future without fate, even though he's dead, Zack's strong will and desire to make it back to Midgar and see Aerith are now able to create this future inside the lifestream. Because Biggs died around the same time Zack would have made it back to Midgar, Zack's branching little patch of the lifestream caught his spirit or whatever a it was returning to the lifestream, and since it's not a part of the Planet's original will, and Zack is just human, he wasn't thinking as the Planet when he died, he was thinking like himself, individuals are still themselves in his worlds, keeping their sense of individuality not becoming part of the Planet, as well as plenty of background NPCs in the background who may just be a part of how Zack or Biggs remember sector 5. Regardless, Zack didn't think through a whole future as he was dying, he just wanted to get back to Midgar, but his worlds end there. That dying of a world is shown as the rift in the sky. We can go back to the stripped and fraying cable analogy, where a wire that's not connected to the rest of a circuit carries no power, and so even though time isn't really a thing in these worlds of possibility, they still have an end when the fraying wires break and no more power is able to for through them. The people who seem to already populate these worlds seem to have accepted that there is no real future here, only the little bit of future envisioned by the mind that created it. What we don't know is what Sephiroth plans to do with these dying worlds. Does he plan on connecting to them, completing the circuit with a much weaker world absorbing tiny bits of power from a little piece of lifestream that is unable to offer any resistance, or is it just to weaken the main path of the lifestream enough to be able to attack it once it has been weakened enough that it cannot carry the full power of the lifestream. Aerith as a Cetra is learning to speak with the Planet, and it seems that she is able to maybe to speak through the lifestream and follow it across all these fraying strands, as well as guide at least Cloud if not anyone as well through the lifestream which is what is happening at the end of the Temple of the Ancients. The white materia was clear after we defeat fate, because we are no longer necessarily connected the memories of the Cetra now that the lifestream is fraying. However, by learning to connect with the lifestream and across the various fraying strands of the lifestream, she is able to connect those memories together again through herself and thus put those memories into the materia. Cloud has his mind basically broken again when Aerith dies. He is now seeing a world where Aerith is still with them, and since Aerith maintains her identity in the lifestream, she could actually be, however, not in the way Cloud sees it, so Cloud too has created a new branch of lifestream with no future, but Cloud still is alive. All the other fraying strands we have seen are either created by the dead inside the lifestream or from Aerith from inside the lifestream. Cloud has done something completely different at the end of the game, and since he is still alive, he can continue envisioning a future in his broken branch of the lifestream, and can continue to siphon power from the main path of the lifestream, however because this path is incompatible with the truth of reality, this world is still doomed, and Sephiroth has an attachment to Cloud in this false reality, and I'm predicting that Sephiroth is counting on something from Cloud, likely him not accepting the truth, and the point at which this comes to a head will be 7 seconds before his false reality comes to an end. He cannot save the world or himself by trying to save Aerith, but Sephiroth is trying to convince him he's capable of saving her, so the wrong choice would be to save Aerith. They kind of hit on these ideas, at least a little bit, but everyone gets hung up on whether these are physical worlds or parallel worlds, when in my opinion, they are emotion and willpower, and collective unconscious combining in the lifestream splitting off to create a false memory created by people who are at least temporarily now separated from the will of the Planet and Sephiroth is trying to use these fractured and hopeless worlds as the dead are mourning themselves. Zack is an anomaly as he's just such a himbo that he refuses to accept the end of the world he created, but by doing so he is able to traverse these worlds in the lifestream, and just happens to find Cloud and Aerith through a combination of dumb himbo main character luck and by his actual attachments to both of them without even knowing how, why, or what he's doing. I think this falls in line with what the developers have stated, however I am not up to speed on all the latest translations from the Ultimania, so if I'm wrong, please point me towards there source, since there's still a lot left to catch up on, and I'm just beginning the post-game, so I likely won't be caught up any time soon.
Sephiroth could control the black whispers early in Remake. The black whisper that hovers over Cloud while Sephiroth says, sleep and dream the sweetest dreams before the reactor 5 mission.
The distinction we were going for is that the planet's Whispers are no longer active the way they are in Remake. They've now been replaced by those working under Sephiroth's influence and those working under Aerith's.
when was this scene with chadley telling cloud about his infinite potential? Also not many people talk about this, but sephiroth said to cloud: I give you my blessing, which gave him the power to go to different 'worlds' or at least perceive them. Why would he give him that willingly.
That scene plays once you’ve gotten 100% of the world intel I think. I got it after beating Gilgamesh (which was my last intel). Cool scene that made me like Chadley
sadly, I really don't know how else they would get rid of Jenova and Sephiroth other than Cloud dying. I hope they think of something great for us. Can't have the planet rejoice while you don't get the girls ;-;
Ppl seems missing out one thing, the multiverse or whatever multi path only appears only when cloud started to denial an event, which mean multi path only exist in POV of cloud, in buddhism we called this yìniàn 意念 (something like thought + wishes ) which some live only less than 1 second, i think everything will follow back to original story in part 3, and they are just messing with cloud's mind to serve fans and make the story more mystery and detail by applying some buddhism or other methology.
This makes cheap plot device sound a lot more reasonable lol. It wasnt the ideal ending but saying that it sucked as an ending wholecloth ignores the freakin hour or so this insane twisty thing gave us to explore. Obviously people are always going to complain but if they got the standard ending exactly how it was they probably be complaining that they should have done something differently because you really can't replicate that exact scene everything that was done was 10 out of 10 perfect for its time you just can't match that but I will say that they did add a lot more depth to the ending of whatever disc the capital is at and I don't want to say this is a spoiler because it was on the damn game description where it would end
This and the FF7 avengers podcast with max? What a legendary time we eatin good rn with all these discussion podcasts
“FF7 avengers” love that 😆
Which podcast? I'd like to check that out.
@GrimJackal Its on BltzZ's channel, 3 hour long spoiler discussion with Maximilian, Babyseal, Sleepezi, Night sky prince, and Bltzz all cornerstones of this community it was an awesome pod episode one of the best yet!
Would also recommend Easy allies podcast episode with max if you haven't checked it out!
@@GrimJackal Its on BltzZ's channel, 3 hour long spoiler discussion with Maximilian, Babyseal, Sleepezi, Night sky prince, and Bltzz all cornerstones of this community it was an awesome pod episode one of the best yet! It has not been directly uploaded yet so instead of clicking videos check livestreams section
Would also recommend Easy allies podcast episode with max if you haven't checked it out!
@@GrimJackalIts on BltzZ's channel, 3 hour long spoiler discussion with Maximilian, Babyseal, Sleepezi, Night sky prince, and Bltzz all cornerstones of this community it was an awesome pod episode one of the best yet! It has not been directly uploaded yet so instead of clicking videos check livestreams section
Would also recommend Easy allies podcast episode with max if you haven't checked it out!
0:47: 📚 Expert mythology author discusses diverse topics with a long-time friend on Seal Team 7.
14:49: 📚 Exploration of Norse connections in Final Fantasy VII Rebirth reveals depth and reverence for mythology.
28:49: 🌿 Mythological symbolism in the game includes references to life, death, and rebirth, with hidden meanings in various aspects.
43:09: 🔮 Connection between Greek and Norse mythology in Final Fantasy VII represents the idea of aith as a soul Maiden.
57:47: 🌈 Exploration of different scenarios where the character Aith either dies or is saved, impacting the storyline and symbolism.
1:11:26: ⚔️ Interpretation of Final Fantasy VII storyline and potential impact on character development.
1:25:55: 🤔 Unanswered mysteries surrounding Cloud's possession of materia in Final Fantasy VII.
1:40:07: 💡 Analysis of the ambiguous ending in the series, potential impact on viewer interpretation, and creator's cryptic hints.
1:55:24: 🌈 Analysis of rainbow iconography in Final Fantasy VII Rebirth, with caution against overinterpretation.
2:08:54: 🧠 Exploration of stages of anima development for males towards self-improvement.
2:23:28: 🎮 Favorite moments in the game, including the end of chapters 13 and 14, North mythology elements, and Kate Sith.
2:37:51: 🎮 Analysis of a character in Final Fantasy VII as a key player in preventing a sacrifice and underestimation by Sethro.
2:52:38: 💭 Exploration of negative Live Stream concept in FFVII:AC and its relation to the world's state.
Recap by Tammy AI
Thanks for doing this
We are having such intellectual deep meaningful conversations thanks to this game. It’s just such an experience.
I appreciate you Clarke. You clearly just CANNOT get enough of this and it shows in how prepared you are for these discussions!! It’s more than just holding us over like you all did after remake, you’re literally holding us this time. Helping us grieve because that’s exactly what they did was make us grieve in the hardest way.
I really enjoyed your discussion with Max and the guys last night but your one on ones are by far the most interesting. Really good discussion. Probably the best and most enjoyable I've had the pleasure to listen to so far. Really riveting stuff.
I appreciate that!
HOLY materia. I didn’t expect to see M.J here!!! Just finished the super pod cast and I’m so here for this
Thanks, pal!
Ok I'm at 0:36 and I already recognize one of my favorite songs from Rebirth. My goodness, how long I stayed in that cabin and how many times I came back to listen this track.
I missed the stream but it is always a pleasure to hear MJ's thoughts and musings.
Thank you!
I've been pretty consumed with Rebirth discussions and this has to be the best one I've seen. Rather than just looking at it in a vacuum, it considers various philosophies, visual language, metaphor and how literary devices etc have been used historically/culturally.
Delighted to hear you enjoyed it!
same I can't focus on anything else. This is the conversation that really filled a void in my search
Great discussion! Thank you both for this. I absolutely love the idea that Jenova arrived on Gaia initially on a first summoning of meteor as a failed attempt by the Gi to retire their existence. That's officially going into my head canon for the lore of this story until anything otherwise is spelled out!
Glad to be of head-canon service.
Absolutely!!! It brings the whole thing full circle and makes Jenova more than a timeless space meanie
I have got to say man, you are one of my favorite Final Fantasy VII fans, even when you don't fully agree with a thought one of your guests has, you always highlight the value in their interpretation. It's such a breath of fresh air to find common decency and healthy discussion on the internet. I have only one friend who plays these games and he is just starting chapter 12 as of this post, so I have had NOBODY to talk to about this stuff and your content is helping me get by while I try not to spoil anything for my friend haha. Keep up the great work man!
The tree of life symbolizing the deviation of timelines is insane !!
The peaks of emotion are truly touching. Great interview. Thank you.
Probably nothing but when you talked about the Wutai War it reminded me of the truck scene where “Cloud” is sad the war is over so he can’t be a “hero”. With a new war returning and his fractured mind state I wonder if there will be a callback to that in a way that could cause issues with Yuffie
Easily the best talk surrounding Rebirth yet. Some really mind-blowing stuff.
Thanks very much!
Excellent discussion! Thank you so much for all the time you dedicate to FF7's content, and the amazing people you bring to discuss it. Some interesting things to wonder about where things are going:
- Cloud's sword has a green glow as he is swinging it to block Sephiroth's attack at the altar. So... What does that symbolize exactly? We know that Holy in OG for some reason turns green if the prayer is answered. Is the green the lifesteam or something else? So perhaps the empty materia will have not only Cloud's memories and dreams but also Aerith's somehow, since at the ending the materia reflects clouds(Cloud) and earth(Aerith).
- The two whale weapons definitely have a major role in part 3, but being two we can assume that one will be for Cloud and the other for Tifa, helping them to leave the lifestream sequence, although one of the weapons was wounded by Sephiroth in Rebirth, so what will that cause after or during the lifestream sequence? That wound could enable Sephiroth to interfer the Lifestream sequence, making it unstable, only to fail/be stopped by the real Cloud that found himself. Another thing we could consider too that both weapons glowing at the ending of Rebirth could be the trigger for the other weapons to start "booting" or to start some other type of planet failsafe? Maybe that was just their way of repelling the arbiters, by being together that glow will keep them safe until the constant attacks stop. Wondering too if the whale at Corel's reactor was there in case Tifa fell into it, but Sephiroth's plan was dedicated to Gongaga's in particular.
- When the robed men start migrating from Nibelheim at the ending of Rebirth, there is a shot where we can see a very strange concentration of arbiters from afar. We can easily miss in the scene. Wonder what they were doing there, and where/why.
Holy moley, how’d I miss this one? Great convo!
I get caught up thinking about how this story ends with eliminating Jenova which clearly needs to happen for a resolution. Sephiroth is already in the life stream infecting it and cloud can’t ever die or he will pollute it as well. And then there’s Zack who also has Jenova cells.
this video single-handedly restored my interest in the remake trilogy-especially the cycles. hoping that if remake is spring, rebirth is summer-like a vacation which explains the onslaught of minigames-reunion (three will probably be reunion, right?) is fall and winter and hopefully we get a focus on quality storytelling.
I really hope you touch base on Mideel theory. That all events up to part 3 are happening in Mideel section in Clouds mind. Multiple worlds can “bubble” in ones mind if left in the state of Cloud in lifestream. Zack constantly appearing, Aerith living, the fight with Fate as a form of Cloud not yet accepting the truth can all be created by Cloud to cope with events he experienced. If the merchant in Mideel has 5 stamp dogs as pets instead of white chocobo im going to flip out.
Doubt that they would go the “its been all a dream” route. It deligitemizes the adventure so far. Never a good idea in fiction to do this. I’d drop that theory if I were you hahaha..
@@mikev8746haha I was about to post this same thing
@@thatstheway2429 😂😂
Love the analytic work MJ has done around this, really smart guy and well thought out theories
I appreciate that very much!
Love the Monkey Jello Gallagher perspective on everything FF related. He, along with Birds of Play and Alleyway Jack, are underrated creators in this community
I hope Seal gets his audio boosted, guy is so damn quiet. Especially in the big big podcast he did.
First time hearing MJ and love his thoughts (and voice!)
Thank you
@@m.j.gallagher6756my pleasure
i had noticed playing through it again, that the crumbled structures and stairs in the cave of the GI look very very similar to the structure and staircases in the temple of the ancients. i’m supprised no one has spoke of this yet.
My takeaway from interlude is the lifestream as we know it "composed" of memories which can be manipulated into simulating worlds the way VR attributes can have real, physical impacts (summons). While normally the lifestream guides it's own simulations (Life/Death/Rebirth), a prime mover can motivate the direction of these simulations. I think Aerith and Sephiroth can create their own side simulations in the lifestream itself as they attempt to create or discover a way to impact the "Prime" simulation the lifestream is running. A pseudo tug-of-war between the positiver and negative lifestream which is occuring in the tifa lifestream sequence and the final altar sequences. This is consistent with the cycle of rebirth, concept of Ragnarok, and Ygdrassil housing multiple "realms". I think Sephiroth is originally running simulations in the lifestream to find a way or world in which he "wins" and Aerith observes and hijacks this ability to help the party. I think this is similar to how Geostigma is conveyed when Sephiroth says "a world acccepting it's fate" compared to the acceptance of defeat in AC slowly breaking the world. Sephiroth likely wants to consume this prime simulation because it gives him what he needs to achieve true apotheosis. This would make me think the prime "remake" simulation is the final key to break the cycle.
I'm leaning hard into this simulation theory and I think it's really relevant to Chadley and how (almost needlessly) relevant he is to the overall plot as a primordial form of what's happening on a grander scale between Aerith/Minerva vs Sephiroth/Jenova.
MJ + Clark is truly the secret sauce we need to unlock this game.
I'm SO glad that the harbinger was brought up as a talking point for time and space in this video. remake does in fact say that the harbinger is connected to all the threads of time and space that shape the planet’s fate.
the white whispers and sephiroth reborn are talked about in a similar manner that suggests they don't operate under one linear space-time.
the lifestream and all of her agents that we've seen thus far seemingly transcend time and space.
so even if this was a traditional multiverse with countless worlds, there should still only be one lifestream.
and i think the ultimania confirming that sephiroth reborn exists in all of the worlds at once confirms this transcendence above time without a shadow of a doubt.
in the final battle he appeared in multiple different worlds all at the same time.
usually other characters in fiction that transcend time so completely also exist in all different realities at once.
it's basically like a state of omnipresence.
Would love to see a discussion between M.J Gallagher and Sleepezi!
The Landi Lodge does an amazing job breaking this down. He would be a good guest.
I was wondering what your thoughts were about what happened in the swamp when cloud gets taken under the water and Sephiroth seemingly gets summoned to save him from the Midgardsormr. Aerith makes a strange comment after as well. No one seems to mention this part in discussion probably because it’s early in the game. I feel like there is something important here.
I feel like cloud killed the snake himself somehow. I believe Who am I? plays afterward as well.
@@JK-of3es It's certainly not impossible and the scene is deliberately ambiguous because it places the lone robed figure on an island beforehand to insinuate that this is the version of Sephiroth that appears in the water. I personally think it's post-AC Sephiroth (usually represented by black feathers or the wing, but in this case by the black strands of spirit energy).
Here's your Zack lives post lifestream memory sequence: Zack returns to Gongaga. Scarlet kills Cissnei. She dies trying to tell him the true name we never hear. Zack will work with Turks to help rebuild (repent) post-meteor crisis. Help restore Wutai?
Two years later: between Zack, living Turks, and Cloud you have a device to retell BC/CC/AC all together after VIIR, all in the same character improved final draft fashion. Then onto Dirge for the same treatment. What if they are setting up to retell it all if they decide they want to after the trilogy?
To the point about Cloud A talking to Cloud B.. There is actually an instance where cloud while passed out encounters another “cloud” that tells him to get up
Some quick theories
Wutai War is another way to create Negative Lifestream
Whispers are the byproduct of Mako energy. It doesn't destroy Lifestream but changes it. Tifa mentioned this theory in Cosmo Canyon.
Jesse is Jenova in Loveless and her dance with the blonde guy is our preview of how she will manipulate Cloud in part 3.
I think Cloud already sacrificed himself in the timeline and it is what 7 seconds to the end references. This is what causes both Aerith and Sephiroth to go back to the beginning of Remake to save him. The theory of why Cloud might do that presented here is really good.
Great discussion as usual. Sorry to be annoying, but do you think you could add some kind of dark tinted background behind the chat section in the future? It's extremely hard to read because of the bright background.
I like the idea of the aerith loop 🔁 but it gets kinda wonky when you think about it to much . Reloop! Recycle! Recircle! Rejoin! Return! Retire! Reset! Revolve!
Cloud’s arc is the key imo. Whatever Cloud’s mind does, The Planet is also capable via Lifestream.
The finale of Part 3 will basically focus in on that final fight between shirtless Sephiroth and Cloud… by having everyone help him defeat him.
How? The same way Tifa was able to go into his subconscious to help piece his mind together. His rebuilt relationships will help completely eradicate Sephiroth from his mind.
I believe if Cloud has to give up anything in the end, it’ll be his SOLDIER strength. He will need to find that strength, not from Jenova cells, but from his relationships and will to live
Whoa cool. I've got both of his ff7 mythology books, finished the norse, working thru the Greek rn 👌 adds that sweet sweet depth to my understanding of ff7. I wonder if you guys go over kabbalistic connections like the sephiroth and such and if those themes are big to the story. Ok ill shut up and watch the video now
Really appreciate the support. Thank you.
How come some parts of this discussion have been cut out? I listened to this when it came out and got back into FF7 lore recently. Could've swore this discussion was about 3 hours.
Anyone finally notice that Crawlers (snakes in Mythril Mine) are baby Midgardsormrs?! Never noticed that in the OG
I wonder if there will be any thematic cross over between Aerith’s arc and that of Yule from FF13 trilogy
What if the white whispers are literally holy and its already been activated in another world/timeline? Aerith isn’t physically manipulating them like we thought, but it’s using its magic in the form of white whispers (powered by white orbs under their hoods) to do things that would aid the planet (saving Tifa and the baby weapons)?
Oh you essentially said that like 2 minutes later lol. Nice work Seal!
I think the Black and White materia are the same orb. I think Clear is also Void, and that's what the dots are between the Yin and the Yang. Black can symbolize Nothingness, but true Nothingness would lack even black, just as White points to Whole-y, but is merely white. I think in the space between worlds it is the potential for both, and that one could never exist without the other. That was my initial takeaway from the ending sequence. Cloud is still teetering between the two influences, leaning toward Septic-Rot.
This is more based in philosophy than lore, but the lore comes from philosophy, so, just wanted to stick it out there.
Feel free to eviscerate the idea.
Thank you for your work.
Edit: I wrote that before Gallagher drew up the Yin and Yang. Goddamnit.
Cloud got the Black Materia from destroying the Jenova clone of Sephiroth that had it in the Forgotten Capital. He just forgot all of that because he blocked out so much of the event. Could they be doing something different here? Maybe, but I expect that is mostly the same/Sephiroth put it there on purpose as a Chess move to break Cloud's mind completely later on.
Do you think they’ll connect any lore between Emerald Witch - Emerald Weapon and Shadow Blood Queen - Ruby Weapon?
So I am still trying to catch up on the current season since I was still drop in the middle of the game when it kicked off, but now that I've finished up the story of the game, I have an interpretation that I have yet to see anyone else quite hit on the same fundamental themes, but if it has come up in a later episode already, please let me know.
The fundamental tenets of my current understanding of the story are that the developers have started and it's repeated again in how materia is formed, especially the black and white materia, is that lifestream is not just made of spirits or life force or whatever, but most importantly to this reading of the text is that the lifestream is made of memories. The second key idea to this reading is that fate has been destroyed, and therefore the future is not written.
We also know that the lifestream carries memories from the future, but the future is no longer written, it is up to the choices and actions of strong willed individuals what the future looks like, and therefore the memories in the lifestream now can come from divergent futures. These divergent futures can kind of be seen as different worlds, but they aren't really a different world, they're a memory of a world that could be our could have been.
The reason we see the whole splitting of worlds when Zack is deciding whether to save Biggs or Cloud is to show how a strong willed individual can create a divergent set of contradicting future memories. This kind of splits the flow of the lifestream like stripping the insulation off the end of a braided cable, so it goes from one coherent path made of tiny individual wires all bound together as one and indistinguishable from both the other strands and the cable itself, to a fraying collection of diverging smaller and weaker strands of wire that easily break and are less capable of carrying larger amounts of current.
These divergent futures are not all created equally. Zack's futures for example shouldn't even exist at all, but because the
Planet can no longer guide the future without fate, even though he's dead, Zack's strong will and desire to make it back to Midgar and see Aerith are now able to create this future inside the lifestream. Because Biggs died around the same time Zack would have made it back to Midgar, Zack's branching little patch of the lifestream caught his spirit or whatever a it was returning to the lifestream, and since it's not a part of the Planet's original will, and Zack is just human, he wasn't thinking as the Planet when he died, he was thinking like himself, individuals are still themselves in his worlds, keeping their sense of individuality not becoming part of the Planet, as well as plenty of background NPCs in the background who may just be a part of how Zack or Biggs remember sector 5. Regardless, Zack didn't think through a whole future as he was dying, he just wanted to get back to Midgar, but his worlds end there. That dying of a world is shown as the rift in the sky. We can go back to the stripped and fraying cable analogy, where a wire that's not connected to the rest of a circuit carries no power, and so even though time isn't really a thing in these worlds of possibility, they still have an end when the fraying wires break and no more power is able to for through them. The people who seem to already populate these worlds seem to have accepted that there is no real future here, only the little bit of future envisioned by the mind that created it.
What we don't know is what Sephiroth plans to do with these dying worlds. Does he plan on connecting to them, completing the circuit with a much weaker world absorbing tiny bits of power from a little piece of lifestream that is unable to offer any resistance, or is it just to weaken the main path of the lifestream enough to be able to attack it once it has been weakened enough that it cannot carry the full power of the lifestream.
Aerith as a Cetra is learning to speak with the Planet, and it seems that she is able to maybe to speak through the lifestream and follow it across all these fraying strands, as well as guide at least Cloud if not anyone as well through the lifestream which is what is happening at the end of the Temple of the Ancients. The white materia was clear after we defeat fate, because we are no longer necessarily connected the memories of the Cetra now that the lifestream is fraying. However, by learning to connect with the lifestream and across the various fraying strands of the lifestream, she is able to connect those memories together again through herself and thus put those memories into the materia.
Cloud has his mind basically broken again when Aerith dies. He is now seeing a world where Aerith is still with them, and since Aerith maintains her identity in the lifestream, she could actually be, however, not in the way Cloud sees it, so Cloud too has created a new branch of lifestream with no future, but Cloud still is alive. All the other fraying strands we have seen are either created by the dead inside the lifestream or from Aerith from inside the lifestream. Cloud has done something completely different at the end of the game, and since he is still alive, he can continue envisioning a future in his broken branch of the lifestream, and can continue to siphon power from the main path of the lifestream, however because this path is incompatible with the truth of reality, this world is still doomed, and Sephiroth has an attachment to Cloud in this false reality, and I'm predicting that Sephiroth is counting on something from Cloud, likely him not accepting the truth, and the point at which this comes to a head will be 7 seconds before his false reality comes to an end. He cannot save the world or himself by trying to save Aerith, but Sephiroth is trying to convince him he's capable of saving her, so the wrong choice would be to save Aerith.
They kind of hit on these ideas, at least a little bit, but everyone gets hung up on whether these are physical worlds or parallel worlds, when in my opinion, they are emotion and willpower, and collective unconscious combining in the lifestream splitting off to create a false memory created by people who are at least temporarily now separated from the will of the Planet and Sephiroth is trying to use these fractured and hopeless worlds as the dead are mourning themselves. Zack is an anomaly as he's just such a himbo that he refuses to accept the end of the world he created, but by doing so he is able to traverse these worlds in the lifestream, and just happens to find Cloud and Aerith through a combination of dumb himbo main character luck and by his actual attachments to both of them without even knowing how, why, or what he's doing.
I think this falls in line with what the developers have stated, however I am not up to speed on all the latest translations from the Ultimania, so if I'm wrong, please point me towards there source, since there's still a lot left to catch up on, and I'm just beginning the post-game, so I likely won't be caught up any time soon.
Sephiroth could control the black whispers early in Remake. The black whisper that hovers over Cloud while Sephiroth says, sleep and dream the sweetest dreams before the reactor 5 mission.
The distinction we were going for is that the planet's Whispers are no longer active the way they are in Remake. They've now been replaced by those working under Sephiroth's influence and those working under Aerith's.
when was this scene with chadley telling cloud about his infinite potential? Also not many people talk about this, but sephiroth said to cloud: I give you my blessing, which gave him the power to go to different 'worlds' or at least perceive them. Why would he give him that willingly.
That scene plays once you’ve gotten 100% of the world intel I think. I got it after beating Gilgamesh (which was my last intel). Cool scene that made me like Chadley
Great vid. Audio balancing is slightly off with background music being too loud.
I just 100% the play log a few minutes ago lol
sadly, I really don't know how else they would get rid of Jenova and Sephiroth other than Cloud dying. I hope they think of something great for us. Can't have the planet rejoice while you don't get the girls ;-;
Not going to lie. I think M.J's theory is pretty dope.
Ppl seems missing out one thing, the multiverse or whatever multi path only appears only when cloud started to denial an event, which mean multi path only exist in POV of cloud, in buddhism we called this yìniàn 意念 (something like thought + wishes ) which some live only less than 1 second, i think everything will follow back to original story in part 3, and they are just messing with cloud's mind to serve fans and make the story more mystery and detail by applying some buddhism or other methology.
This makes cheap plot device sound a lot more reasonable lol. It wasnt the ideal ending but saying that it sucked as an ending wholecloth ignores the freakin hour or so this insane twisty thing gave us to explore. Obviously people are always going to complain but if they got the standard ending exactly how it was they probably be complaining that they should have done something differently because you really can't replicate that exact scene everything that was done was 10 out of 10 perfect for its time you just can't match that but I will say that they did add a lot more depth to the ending of whatever disc the capital is at and I don't want to say this is a spoiler because it was on the damn game description where it would end
Can you do a video colab with 4-8 productions?
Come to think about it, the Japanese having Noticed seems like a no-brainer. They're truthers.