Final Fantasy VII Rebirth's TRUE meaning. Seal Team 7! W/ Sector 6!
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- @Sector6UK joins my second official REBIRTH SEAL TEAM 7! Together we find only the most objectively correct and non-false interpretation of the games ending. Tl;dr its less of a multiverse. Aerith is dead. She isnt Jenova. Cloud is very very very unwell. Zack is a big maybe.
I recommend subscribing and turning on notifications... Expect informed breakdowns and the MOST cutting edge Rebirth content.
Come find me on twitter
/ schrodingersba4
Or catch me streaming on twitch:
/ schrodingersbabyseal
@Sector6UK be found on youtube and
twitch: / sector_6_
X: x.com/Sector_6_
#finalfantasy #squareenix #ff7 #finalfantasy7rebirth #rebirth #sephiroth #fullgame #spoilers #sony #squareenix #endingexplained #clouds #mind
If you go back to the area where you fight Dyne, you will find his grave with Marlene's picture on his gun
Dio. A man of his words.
I like how when walking up to it everyone stays back except Barret. 😭
Why is Cid/Ifalna implausible? Aerith is what 5-6 when they escape, so this is like 15-16 years later. Cid said Aerith was knee high to a tonberry and he was shorter, meaning he could have been in his teens. That would put him in his thirties at this point. We dont know how old Ifalna was, but a teenager being infatuated with a woman in her twenties isnt really far fetched. I mean, it still isnt my favorite plot point they added, but I think it’s plausible.
Did they change who her father was.. ghast was it? It's kinda set in stone. They could have hooked up
why do you want this to be true anyways? Its implausible because she has a dad lol. And its not even a mystery. The world of ff7 is huge why do ppl have this weird obsession to make any and all connections between each and every character. Like its the smallest world ever and everybody is a cousin to each other in some weird way. lol I dont get that.
Did you hear that the devs just confirmed that Vincent is actually Reno's dad!? Thats why they are both TURKS and thats the reason Vincent wears a RED cape to represent his sons RED hair!!! Which is also how Hojo got the idea to name Nanaki RED!!! Wow.
Cid is 32 and Aerith is 22.
The weirdest thing about the shipping segment of FF7 to me, even as a Clerith enjoyer, is that there's a refusal to acknowledge by a lot of people that you can love more than one person, even at the same time (despite how conflicting it is).
And that it’s basic human nature. The number of people that have existed that have purely monogamous feelings is probably quite low.
Throw in some mental illness and an identity crisis and the mentality of a 16 year old…good luck! 😂
Weirdest thing about shipping is shipping in itself. They’re just characters and people take that shit so far
@@someoneelse9680 True, it gets so toxic.
@@mikewilson3346 Just be content in the fact the square will never answer that question. They will never voluntarily alienate half of their fans by telling them you're wrong. The story itself always alludes to Cloud and Tifa, Zack and Aerith. Thats how Advent Children depicts it meaning thats the direction Nomura wanted to go for his characters. But the ambiguous part of it is well when they were together did cloud and Aerith have feelings for each other which could be true. But we don't know forsure thats what's messy. Well you will never know forsure, Square will always leave it ambiguous they want YOU the player to make that choice because ultimately it doesn't affect the story. Both outcomes can be true. I wish all the "shippers" realize this and stop trying to be right and push things on others. It feels gross and its like pushing religion onto ppl. There will never be a day where you can say "ha see Nomura said so and so were a romantic couple all along! Im right and your wrong."
Shipping reveals a childish need in my opinion to have things the way you want them. The truth is Cloud loves Aerith and Tifa differently.. and therea nothing wrong with loving someone.. Theres everything wrong in trying possess and own someone. Massive distinction and frankly, "needing" someone is extremely toxic to yourself. Just my thoughts.
The scary part of all this is: once it’s done, it’s done.
I’m not convinced.. This is Square’s most beloved franchise.. Evident by the amount of love and care put into this trilogy. We’ll see these characters again some day.. but maybe not it really depends on how they end Part 3.
@@DFTNSHEXGRMI’m tempted to agree but I also have a strong really that part 3 really is gonna be it
@@DFTNSHEXGRM I hope they don’t go that route… the walking dead was the best show ever made until they didn’t know when to quit and ended after a several year run of mediocrity.
They have the chance to make one of the best stories in gaming history if they stick this landing, continuing beyond that can end up ruining the legacy this trilogy is building….
But at the end of the day, I wouldn’t be surprised if they continued on after. They have the audience to essentially print money for the next decade or two if they really wanted to.
@@DFTNSHEXGRM If part 3 still leads to Advent Children and Dirge then I would think they would make that sequel to Dirge
I promise they’ll continue to milk money out of this as much as possible
Gongagas music was pure magic. I didn’t mind the area either after all it was a jungle.
Gongaga’s theme was probably the best brand new FF music I’ve heard since FF X.
I got upset in that section when I’d hop on the chocobo and the music changed lol
@@charliewild2367that’s certainly one opinion
@@thatstheway2429 yeah can’t fix someone’s poor sense of taste
@@charliewild2367I don’t really care what other people don’t care for.
Best new soundtrack in the game for me. I’m sorry you didn’t enjoy it. Your loss I suppose.
@@charliewild2367agreed. You seemed awful by our opinions here. Generally not nice to tell people something they enjoy is “fucking awful”.
But alas, it is RUclips…
I think Requiem has a solid case for the third title. It’s somewhat interchangeable with Dirge, so there’s that…
Loved catching this on twitch the other day! Can't wait for more Seal Team 7.
Holy shit. So if babyseal is right about the fight with aerith and sephiroth is taking place while cloud is dropping her in the water, that could be what she is referencing when she tells Cloud "I saw what you did for me back there" or however she says it. She could be thanking him for giving her a funeral or returning her to the planet or whatever
Unlikely the pacing of going through a gauntlet of boss battles would continue in Clouds mind as he's lowering her into the water. dude would be wigging out hard during that somber scene. But is is very curious what she is thanking Cloud for because of how vague is.
I have a few things to leave here:
1- in Kalm we hear the radio narrating the events on "Zack's terrier watever"
2- on "Zack's Terrier watever" we hear the TV talking about "Cloud's beagle watever" and Biggs also "comes from/has memories of" the same Beagle watever
3- Maybe the Stamps are a signal that the worlds are leaking into each other. Overlapping
4- If Glenn is Clouds father and forgot about it, what reason I could come off with is " Mt Nibel" is full of mako. The place could have messed with him
5-Seph clearly states that multiple worlds are created when fate is defied/defetead, so multiverse is real, not a metaphor for Ls as some insist saying. But how does multiverse work? Would it be dimensional? Overlapping multi dimensional worlds?
The Aerith trial was particularly touching. I was thinking about my own wife and daughter at the time and boy was it heartbreaking, but I also found it beautiful how Elmyra shows up to help her. It was done pretty well.
Seal you’re the best! Thank you for these long form videos! I have nobody to talk to about ff7 so these 3 hour videos are the closest I get to a real conversation about the game. Love your insight!
Me too my guy me too
I feel that! My wife doesn’t care, my kids don’t care, besides my one son who just started playing OG on switch but he’s struggling at it and is only 8 so probably a few years before he gets a grasp of it and I can’t spoil anything for him..
The one buddy I have who plays ff7 is waiting until PC release to get rebirth and I can’t spoil anything for him…. I am busting at the seams wanting to talk to people about this but I can’t find an outlet ANYWHERE! 😂
@@HomeDefender30 trust me I feel your pain! lol. One day you and your boy will be able to bond over ff7! Until then we’re rocking with the seal team 😎
Me too! Thank you for these videos
Same here ! I don't have anyone to talk to about this game or FF7 in general.
I must have the hot takes for Gongaga, I liked that it was difficult to get around (I didn't think it was that hard) and the Gongaga over world theme is my favorite of the six zones by a mile.
When it comes to the region of Gongaga, it definitely seems to be a love or hate thing. Haven’t really seen anybody in the middle. I personally loved it. Easily my favorite region.
I mean it is a jungle right lol. I loved the entire game
The music grew on me after a while. It still doesn't feel like FF7 thematically to me, but it works
I don't understand how people found it hard to the point of frustration, all it required was an engaged brain.
The devs really focussed on Vertical Level Design when designing this game. It was great.
Let the Reunion begin!!!!!
I do think the black and white whispers represent the Sephiroth-corrupted or Aerith-purified souls ala lifestream black and lifestream white. I know that's connecting to argued non-cannon source material in The Maiden Who Journeys The Planet, but it seems like a really easy and cogent connection there. Basically, souls in the lifestream that are corrupted and set against the natural cycle by feelings of despair and hatred are represented by the black whispers and this makes up lifestream black and is useful to/usable by Sephiroth.
As far as the ending goes, my interpretation is we have a dead Aerith in main timeline and an alive Aerith in a new parallel branch reality which Cloud alone perceives. Cloud alone perceives because Cloud is the only one that got through that 'boundry of fate' and was in there when he parries the masamune and you get that rainbow lighting effect (I interpret, perhaps wrongly, as signifying a new branched reality being formed/Aerith influencing the creation or stability of such), only he perceives the new branch reality created in there where Aerith is saved and survives. After that moment where the branch is made, Sephiroth merges some realities (possibly the OG ff7 one being among them) and has enough control to select the outcome for the prime reality the party exists in to be her death. But, a separate and parallel reality where she was saved by Cloud's interception does exist and since Cloud was inside the whisper wall and created the new branch, he's capable of seeing and interacting with that reality too where the rest of the party cannot. For a moment they do show Tifa sort of seeing the different realities when she sees Cloud holding Aerith and before her eyes the scene oscillates between a dead and bloodied Aerith and the unharmed living version. Either she's just more observant than the rest of the party and notices it for a moment here, or she has some special connection that allows her to see it(maybe because of her previous journey into the lifestream earlier).
Now this may be completely wrong, but I interpret those scenes and Cloud now straddling two realities or at least able to interact with the one Aerith is saved in and that's why he's not processing that she's dead in the world the rest of the team is in, because to him; she's not. He's seeing her in the saved branch he made, and talking to her, etc. His mind is still very messed up as it was in OG here so he denies her death in the prime reality that everyone else experiences and presumably he laid her to rest in, but it's also complicated because I think he is actually seeing a living version of her in the parallel branch he made. The scar in the sky at the end also lends some credibility to this and in my mind; Zack's parting words to 'save her' also point to Aerith living in some way and being 'savable' somehow otherwise that seems kind of like a nonsense line for the devs to include from Zack at a crucial moment towards the end.
All this to say that just like a new reality was created for the party at the end of remake when they beat the harbingers of fate after Aerith opened a path through the whisper wall that they all crossed through, the same happened at the end here with Cloud creating a new one with his deflection; albeit this time without the rest of the party present inside the whisper wall, just Cloud.
Where this goes in part 3 is hard to guess, but I'd submit that Zack's supposition that split realities could rejoin again at the end may play a role in part 3. We might get the branch where Aerith was saved (maybe this is also a reality where Zack was deposited in the church at the end) rejoined to the parties' main reality at some point which might effectively give you both characters returned to the team alive. I think that's decently likely in the 3rd installment at some point, though whether they remain alive in the same world as the party by the end would be hard to guess. I actually suspect maybe we will get both alive by the end even though Shrodingersbabyseal contends that only one surviving would be better writing. That hinges on whether they link the end of part 3 to Advent Children chronologically which requires those two characters be in the lifestream or if as I and you maybe both here are guessing, AC connects to this story through that future version of Sephiroth and maybe OG Aerith's consciousness projecting through the lifestream back to the beginning of this trilogy (Remake). In which case, the ending of this Re-trilogy could be totally different with it being essentially the new 'good end' to the whole story. Impossible to know for sure and as always, these theories could be way off, but at least there's some evidence there for them in what we've seen so far.
I'd be ok with these characters actually getting to live lives they've all suffered and fought so hard for this time around if they go that route. Appreciating and cherishing the life you're given is a potent theme too just as moving beyond loss was in OG after all, and it might be the only way to shake Sephiroth's cyclical ability to come back through Cloud's guilt and pained memories over and over (as AC detailed) anyway..
On the weirder, theorycrafting side, I don't think we'll see this, but I would have LOVED if we got a sort of grey good-guy version of Sephiroth from some reality who realizes he was led astray by Jenova and wrong in his initial 'awakening' in Nibelheim with regard to not being at least partly human (not knowing about Lucrecia). I don't entertain that they could actually make him a redeemed hero, but maybe a version of him who helps the party some or fights himself or Jenova somewhat for personal reasons. 99% sure that won't happen, but would have been interesting. I would also like a final conclusion that implies the 'good end' to the story is leading to humanity once again reaching for space travel to re-start the Cetra's journey to spread and seed life among different planets. Maybe some sort of positive resolution for the Gi in that.
As for Part 3 titles: My top picks are Re-awakening (lots of foreshadowing about people/weapons/consciousness of the planet waking up), or Redemption. Love all the theories and apologies for the length of my post!
This is along my thoughts as of now too. Waiting for part 3 for Cloud to use his new macguffin materia and restart the game but in a world where everyone gets to live and that is clear of lifestream contaminants like the Gi and Jenova.
This was what I got from the game as well.
I am not too familiar with The Maiden Who Journeys The Planet, but those concepts exist in OTWTS too.
Spoilers of FF7 OG:
The Stall Owner at Aerith and Cloud's date in the alternate world says: "Figured I'd pull out all the stops for my last hurrah. Guess I pulled out one too many.* I think this are the devs saying that they pulled already too much FF7 content. Then Aerith says: "No, it just... needs a little sugar, maybe." Like symbolizing the ending of the OG being way too bittersweet. Cloud agrees, saying, "Yeah... and take out whatever's making my tongue tingle." I don't know exactly what that would entail, but if I really had to stretch more, I'd say is referring to changing Cloud's dissociative behavior, his cold and sour manner of talking and acting to be cool, by changing his persona in the whole section that reveals his true self in the lifestream with Tifa. Getting back to Rebirth's scene, after what Cloud says, the Stall Owner replies, "It sounds to me that I need to start over." Yeah, I may be overthinking this, but mayhaps some sort of loop at the ending? We know most time travels/timelines stories have some sort of loop in the end, so I wonder if that calls back to Aerith's face from the beginning of the game in the OG showing up at the end when she's stopping the meteor. "If only we all had more time, am I right?"the Stall Owner finishes, hinting that... we kinda do, ironically. We still have the third game.
@@MrNighNightDidn't even consider this possible metaphorical meaning in that 'dream' date sequence, but wow good work! I can definitely see all of those being subtle references to a possible ending here/relative to how OG FF7 ended as well. Really like this observation!
Been loving these deep dive spoiler conversations and getting different people's perspectives on the ending! I've beaten Rebirth about 2 weeks ago now and I can confidently say this is my favorite game of all time! I need part 3 now! Lol
Just started the hard mode after exams today. All I could say is I'm getting cooked. But at least this video is out so I can watch in my spare time!
Yea hard mode really forces you to adapt. Got to the mithril golem last night and died, gonna jump back in once I get off work.
I feel disappointed. I’m on hard mode and I only struggled against that water creature in Junon.
Jenova killed me once but only because I was being a bit negligent.
Maybe I’m using Aerith too much because I’ve come to realize if used properly she is ridiculously overpowered. Arcane ward her highest magic with MP absorb and you’re consistently dealing 10-14k on her turns.
Just rolled credits last night. Looking forward to catching up now. 💜
I hope that we use a Black Materia powered Buster Sword as a part of Cloud's combat in Game 3.
Damn you were right the stamps in junon and gold saucer were indeed a big mistake the recent patch fixed them.
On the shipping arguments, I wonder if fans choice is affected by their own personality or where the fans are from. Like what is the majority shipping in America/UK/Japan. Would love to see a poll.
Superb analysis, great interview. Thank you.
I know this is not the only framing of the whispers and the multiple worlds but one framing of this that helps me is the meta framing. The whispers in the original game were the fans themselves wanting to force the game to follow the single path of the original game. But the ending and the second game we get into the fanfiction / multiple worlds were different types of fans want different realities. I think the third will resolve everything by integrating all our hopes and expectations as players as aspects of something greater and real beyond but also within us (the life stream). So what is elevated is not the cannon of ff7 but ff7 as a shared multi-faceted experience that can influence us in our real lives
I believe the Stamps are there to guide us on what piece is from where. For example, main timeline is beagle, but Junon is based on Terrier hence why you see it there. The prime timeline is actively being built ( I believe ) by both Aerith and Sephiroth’s 4D chess match.
I have some degree of confidence the Terriers in Junon and Gold Saucer (yes there are terrier chip bags in gold saucer) are mistakes. Legacies from an earlier plan for the story.
@@schrodingersbabyseal I suspect they would patch this just like Aerith's line at the end of Remake if it caused a problem for the story.
@@chroipahtzI also doubt they will patch them out... I get the sense that acknowledgement of the mistake wouldn't be good PR... but we'll see... each rebirth patch has brought alot of weirdly significant changes.
So you are saying there is evidence that Terrier Stamp shows up in Junon and Gold Saucer? I will have to go back and find this in my playthrough, but if this is the case, then what I have been thinking since the end of Remake is that the Party never really returned to their world after entering the Singularity and facing the Arbitor of Fate. By defeating the Arbitor of Fate, they broke free of Destiny and created a new world/timeline, entered the Terrier timeline and never returned to the Beagle timeline.
I actually found some images of Beagle Stamp that shows up in the Gold Saucer as well as two different signs in Junon, one with Terrier and one with Beagle. This makes me think that the Rebirth main timeline is already beginning to blend with other timelines.
My personal take is that the rainbows are purely the power of emotion. Even Limit Breaks create the rainbow effect when used, which I don't really see anyone talking about. So I also don't think the rainbows directly mean a new world is made.
Here is a theory I came with the end, rather, what I think they are trying to archive with that ending
first, my take on Aerith, she is either alive in another timeline (and someone pointed out that when Tifa appeared the thing she saw was glitching between the 2 until it focused on the death one) or she is a JENOVA manipulation, which both can be, 1 think Remake made very obvious was when Clouds memories were being altered, there is allways a glitch effect, but on the scene when he remembers the promise on the water tower, there is a clean transition, no glitching
now, what do I think they are trying to do? make Cloud the ONLY reliable narrator, we know what is wrong with Cloud, we know what parts specifically make him unreliable, but of all the remaining party members, he is the only one who knows the full scope of things, and as I see it, is currently living in 2 different timelines at the same time, so close to one another that they are indistinguishable from one another, but because Cloud is the only one to understand ALL the things that are really happening, he is currently living on the precipise of downfall, and that will also create more distance between the party and Cloud, even if he is our only reliable narrator to further see whats actually happening
I commented before that its clear Sephiroth wants to further separate Tifa from Cloud, so Tifa cannot save Cloud and free him from his control, Sephiroth knows he is the only one to have bested him before, hence why I think Sephiroth told all this to Cloud, even if it is the truth, it would sound extreanly unrealistic to everyone else
Sector 6 mentioned this discussion, cant wait for this banger
28:25 One interesting thing I notced when watching a solo challenge play video of Sephiroth's playable bout in VR, is that Sephiroth says "I've got this" and "No holding back" during battle, which are things Cloud says in a very similar way during battle, even in Remake.
It's a small detail but it really blew my mind when I noticed it. It shows that from Day 1 he's had parts of Sephiroth AND Zack's mannerisms adopted as his own.
Nice and subtle
Sephiroth saying “I’ve got this”, the most annoying gee jilly jinkers marvel saying going, is lame
My knee jerk reaction to reading this observation is maybe the virtual Sephiroth is Cloud fully morphed into a Sephiroth clone (like the other robed men) with some of his personality leaking out.
But giving it some thought now, I dunno how that would make sense given it's a VR challenge 😂 Too convoluted haha
@@empanadanguwak it's a fight where both Cloud and Sephiroth are the party members just like the flashback. So it's likely he says those lines there too
Nice work
Random weird theory for Knights of the Round:
KotR does 13 hits, so 13 protorelics, 13 members. Perhaps they can make the design resemble the 13 main characters of the single-player FF series so far
1. WoL
2. Firion
3. Onion Knight
4. Cecil
5. Bart
6. Terra
7. Squall
8. Zidane
9. Tidus
10. Vaan (change to Ashe?)
11. Lightning
12. Noctis
13. Clive
Then the "guardian" of each protorelic is just a boss fight against a creature that is based on each of the corresponding big bads.
I think FF7 is a spiral, not a circle. We won't return full circle, but actually have a destination from a point of origin. Ogff7 was the first time Sephiroth and Aerith entered the Lifestream. Remake trilogy is a sequel to AC. Looking forward to whatever Aeriths endgame is and to see Sephiroth frown more. As for when AC comes back around, I think we will see the pieces in very different places. Lifestream Black 1,2,3 and Lifestream White 1,2,3, and On the Way to a Smile will be brought into the forefront.
Sector 6 is the best! Yall have the best voices i stg could listen to yall all the time. Love to put on a theory cast as i go to sleep so calming
I hope part 3 is a wild swan song! Just goes hard, wild, be creative and give us an all new emotional ending!
Thanks for this! I was running out of rebirth discussion videos to listen to. The bgm is pretty loud though, is there a way you could turn it down a bit? It's fine if you don't I love the video regardless!
God I'm so happy knowing we're both part of the CDF (Chadley Defense Force).
Really liking your dialogue here, thanks a bunch for this!
One of the best things that’s come out of this Remake project, is in fact, Clark and his discussions with everyone. Absolutely love these. Thank you
Agreed. I’ve spent hours upon hours listening to video essays by sleepezi, hours on these conversations and even more hours reading m.j Gallagher’s books. Without you all this journey wouldn’t be the same
The crux of this story is the battle for the planet’s “soul” in which on the macro level it’s a battle between Sephiroth and Aerith. But the linch pin to all this is the battle for Cloud’s soul. Because if Sephiroth cannot break Cloud, Cloud will eventually beat him as he always has.
I like the idea of the various Stamps being from different memories that Aerith snatched to weave the interlude world together. Interestingly, the two market stall owners from Ch14, there are a couple of points in the game's interlude sections where you free roam with Zack in the same area - in both, those same two stall owners are there. There's no Stamp figurine, but the confectionery stall owner still has the Stamps Champs chips, but they have the Terrier Stamp on the bag rather than the one we see in Ch14.
Aerith being saved/not saved - I think she wasn't saved, but Aerith creates the illusion (in Cloud's head) that he did. All the Aerith is saved scenes are accompanied by either the rainbow effect or the lifestream effect. I think that's Aerith's parry of Sephiroth's "push". Sephiroth kills Aerith to generate despair in Cloud. Aerith convinces Cloud that he saved her, hence no despair. That's why he's the only one not to have a limit break in the Lifeclinger battle.
When Zack remembers Marlene talking to him in Chapter 14, it has a rainbow filter around the edges. This can tie the rainbow imagry to memories and not just choices.
Something I don't think I've seen discussed is what the significance of the comatose cloud and Earth are from The living Zack's world. Is that just to make sense of what is happening in that world or is there some underlying significance?
When you said the dream world is everyone that relates to Aerith, I feel like it’s similar to how it’s described in Maiden. (I think conceptually on how the world functions Maiden has a lot of it correct). Aerith is able to call upon consciousness of people she knows when she’s in the lifestream. And since LS is all encompassing in terms of time and space and consciousness, it’s irrelevant if a consciousness is currently dead or not in the Beagle-verse for them to appear. She is able to invoke the memories and consciousness of everyone that had a connection to her. So I’m still kinda iffy on the nature of the multiverse. I still think they could all be memory simulations inside the lifestream lol. And what people remember becomes their reality, so people in the LS simulation / Aerith’s dream believe they truly experiened them. I don’t think there’s an OG Aerith, it’s just physically alive Aerith and lifestream spirit Aerith.
I hear what you are saying against Jenovaerith but did you hear Jenovah lifeclinger song? Aeriths theme being taken over by Jenovahs. That is pretty interesting. I really liked your take on how the worlds work. They are attached to the characters and memories of it. Not full on worlds.
Are you going to have a podcast with Maximillian? Would love that conversation.
Grateful for conversations like this where i feel like im amongst other ff7 super fans deep diving into everything in this game. About to start hard mode .
So something I noticed and I've only just started watching video as I'm at work haha and not sure if anyone has mentioned but I think cloud is stuck between two worlds.... he got woken up in the zack timeline and pushed back into the main timeline and that's why he could see both realitys of aerith surviving and dieing and can see the crack in the sky...
I don't think Cloud wakes up in Zack's timeline. Stamp on the chip back looks different from what we had already in Zack's timeline. Seems like each timeline has its own verion of Stamp.
Reunited is my vote also. Nomura also said they can’t use Reunion ( I think in latest ultimania)
Return just reminds me of Kingdom Hearts.
I still think when they enter the forgotten capital, the merging of worlds start, like seph says. I like the thing you said with the blessing being the black materia and clouds key to pass through the wall of black whispers. I also believe when aerith gets stabbed, the merging ends or is coming to an end, seph wanted to kill all iterations of aerith at this single moment. That church area where zack appairs in, feels like remnants of a fading "world" because the merging coming to an end. After that I think he wakes up in the main world 100%. So aerith is gone, multiverse is gone, cloud is kinda gone in a different way and zack is reborn. At this point I don't think it's aerith at the end, it's just cloud coping, there was already a goodbye when she pushes him into the portal and another one after the last fight. You mention reoccuring visual themes, that would mean aerith would only show up in a white space if it's lifestream aerith like in AC, no? 🤣 Last edit: I think the tear is connected to cloud becoming cloud, worlds that are doomed have a tear because cloud has not found himself yet. Great talk ✌ Last Last edit: I think it will be reunion which would connect to zacks rebirth... ok last last last edit: cloud has to die to end it all 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Having 2 buster swords and retconing his talk to Cloud to be his living legacy would be pretty harsh and outside of fanservice it wouldn't make much sense
She’s dead completely living and working through the life stream the entire story will be the same the devs are just giving more possibilities to the story but it will all end the same. Zack will be apart of the team for a short period of time being the fact that cloud saw Zack and fought beside Zack. So Zack I alive but will eventually die in part three after helping his friend cloud putting his meme rips back together
I’ve been conflicted with the red sensing aerith part for a while, and while listening I think I’ve finally found something that makes sense. My initial viewing of the ending was that aerith was appearing alive to cloud to keep in together long enough, that she didn’t want him experience her death for whatever reason, and that him thinking she’s alive was part of her plan. Now I also had lots of thoughts of how this wouldn’t be something that could last through part 3 as I’m sure that immediately after a bit the party would get upset at cloud believing that she’s alive and that that would push them apart very quick with them all experiencing her death, and him being happy. When she appears to red, she’s making sure that the party understands why cloud is acting that way. If red can sense that there is still at least a part of her there, they won’t fight cloud about it as much. Interesting side note is the cosmo canyon proterelic quest, Barret when reliving the death of wedge, feels that wedge is there or at least heard him, and red is the one to shut it down and says it’s probably just the wind. Just a thought I thought I’d share.
Nah its probably jenova. She has a mimic ability and she only appears when cloud is looking directly at her. Sephiroth even says on the junon ship she will pose as the one you love and to not be fooled.
Lol we're being fucked with
@@CraftyMiscreant But why do we see her saying goodbye when Cloud is not there to see it ? She shouldn't appear alone to the audience if it's only in Cloud mind.
@@Foxheimerbecause the audience is being played, too. We are cloud. This Aerith acts completely different than before. The biggest giveaway is that she encourages cloud to fight sephiroth. All game long she speaks the complete opposite
@Foxheimer
This is why we're being fucked with. Look at the opening scene when cloud is looking at the materia . She's not with cit and Cait. But when he looks over, she's there. Ontop of that, red senses her.
It's conflicting info either way. But that's what I'm going with.
@@CraftyMiscreant Red senses "her" because he has some very special cells injected to him.
Loved this video and all the thinking behind it. I want just to suggest another interpretation for the rift in the sky because to me the rainbow rift that Cloud sees in the end scene looks different somehow from the yellow rift seen in other "timelines". Could it be that the reunion of worlds has already happened (as pointed out by Sephiroth after killing Aerith) and, thus, the new rift is that mixed rainbow color because this is the "final world" where all the timelines are merged? This was my interpretation at least.
Thanks as usual for the amazing conversations happening on Seal Team 7! Can't wait for more!!!
Keep making these I need lots of podcasts to listen to while trying to do all the vr missions solo with all characters
I like FF7 Remembrance for part 3. Works with the lifestream (made of memory), Aerith’s death, Cloud’s identity etc. The Re trilogy itself is like a final remembrance of the original. Plus, it’s a noun like Remake, Rebirth, and even Intergrade. (Sure, some of them can be used as verbs depending on the sentence, but I see it as a series of nouns.)
I also like Reckoning, Repentance, and Redemption.
Okay this came to me while listening to your guys’ discussion (wonderful takes btw)
Now if we take your guys’ interpretation of the Edge of Creation being Clouds headspace, that is the only place Cloud interacts with Zack. I posit that the Zack we have been following the entire time in the interludes, and play as in the final battle is the part of Zack that is in clouds head confusing his identity. The only evidence I have for this, is Aerith, throughout the game and sometimes in optional content (the gold saucer date) Aerith says she’s trying to find the real Cloud. And I see this as the white light/rainbow that appears every time Zack would die/is removed as Omni Aerith trying to put this mental Zack where he needs to be. I do believe whether this theory is true or not that Zack will be instrumental in making Cloud whole in part 3. As you pointed out Cloud is way further gone at this point than he was in the original. And Aerith needs the Zack part of him to help fight off the Jenova/Sephiroth part of him.
Another point I would like to mention, and they brought this up in the Easy Allies discussion, that yellow “scar” across the sky wherever Zack is and that Cloud sees at the end, is the same type of mark we see in Clouds reassembly in the lifestream in the original, where Tifa helps to put Cloud back together. So this is something in clouds headspace/mental state. Again, here say for now, I have not revisited the scene myself to confirm. (Edit: you confirmed this haha)
Now there is tons of evidence to counter this but I think it is so off the wall that I kind of love the idea of being that “Crazy Karl” screaming “I KNEW IT!” If it were to come to pass in 3-4 years.
1:34:26 - There are no clock hands in Zack’s world. You see a clear shot of a handless clock behind him at one point, and there’s 1 or 2 clocks you can find around (Elmyra’s house), and there literally is no time in that world.
Great lengthy but never boring discussion. Only thing, the music in the background is a bit loud and distracting at times.
Thank you for the deep insights!
Tankceratops will be in part 3 around the Gongaga revisit. Since the lifestream is memories it would be wild if Remake and Rebirth are actually happening in real time in Clouds memories in the lifestream in Mideel. Meaning everything we witnessed so far is Cloud in Mideel and Tifa rebuilding his memories and Chadley is just trying to syphon his memories for massive Hojo fight.
I keep hearing people say it, but what makes you believe the Rebirth timeline is the OG timeline? This remake I think takes place in in all AU, that's another reason why they recasted every role. What if our original Timeline assists in taking down the final big bad across every dimension for a finale?
The gongaga track actually gains more layers the more you complete the Kujata crystals. :)
Yup! Every region's soundtrack does that!
51:00 i was like NONONONO dont open this Book. xD
I think the endings Aerith is Jenova in Cloud’s mind.
Cloud tells Tifa, “Jenova would become anyone to fool her prey”
And at the Temple of the Ancients The Cetra describe Jenova as, “A deceiver who stole the faces of the dead”
Love the theory crafting! Can’t wait to see who else you bring on.
Love the conversation, but the soundmixing was realy anoying. The music was way to loud.
What do you make of the ambient conversation before the Cosmo Canyon seminar about the "alternate world" through the looking glass and unrealized hopes/dreams? This seemed like a massive hint but the ramifications aren't totally clear.
I'm surprised you didn't touch more on Nanaki's promise to save the Gi, and the purpose of Cloud's empty materia. I think those two are crucial, and together they're going to forge a "third way" apart from Sephiroth and Aerith's goals, in typical anime fashion. Maybe it involves the conversation I just mentioned; especially mentioning unrealized hopes/dreams seems like a suggestion that Zack's sheer force of will will be able to punch through causality and, together with Cloud and Aerith, solve everything. Maybe they'll force the lifestream to change into something else that would purify and welcome the Gi and Jenova into it, ending the cycle. If that's the case, then reuniting Zack and Aerith (temporarily) just so they can say goodbye to each other, before the two of them (and Sephiroth, defeated) dissolve into the lifestream forever, would be the final ending of all of this.
This would also lend itself nicely to the "Return" subtitle. A double entendre for the REAL Cloud "returning" as well. And Remake and Rebirth refer to what Sephiroth does during the story, so if he's finally able to Return to the lifestream for good...
I appreciate that you touched on this plot point with the Gi. A lot of theories right now seem really narrowed in on just the relationship between Zack/Aerith/Cloud, and not looking at the fuller picture here. The Gi also having some further narrative influence on this more giant, cosmic, scale also would make a lot of sense if the end goal is to stop Sephiroth/Jenova once and for all. The culmination of all the elements need to be working in tandem in order for some greater plan to be enacted.
I rewatched the ambient conversation last night, and I can't decide either if its just a general reference to these Stamp worlds (the planes) or if it is any further hints. I did find a similar connection though to her theory and Jessie's theory from remake. Jessie's theory involved the belief that someone's conscious could be stuck within the lifestream, and that there may be a possibility of recovery (she hoped that her theory would mean she could bring her father out of his mako poisoning induced coma). The woman at cosmo canyon believed that she could reconnect with her parents if she could essentially transcend to that plane. I'm unsure of its full purpose, but I think the fact that Zack and Biggs are brought essentially to another "plane" implies that they are indeed fluid and traversable. The only question for me is just what's the difference between these lifestream planes and the sort of multi-verse looking approach. It would be easier to understand if the interlude worlds were full of ONLY characters who we've seen die in someway - implying then that these planes can only be reached upon your consciousness rejoining the lifestream - but the inclusion of Kyrie, Elmyra and Marlene is what stumps me the most.
Here are some things i notice:
1.Rainbow effect still present during Aerith was falling down when she got stab. Further backing your lifestream point. Not timesjumps
2. In the CG meteor where Sephi tore open the sky, lifestream was pouring out then gets corrupted when levitating the lands.
3. The line fighting Jenova Lifeclinger about 75% hp Cloud said this "you've done it before, you can do it again" this line was similar in AC when Zack told Cloud during the last fight with OneWSephiroth before the omnislash.
4. I have a feeling green glitches and red glitches have different meaning.
I interpreted the green glitches as Jenova in Cloud's mind working to make him not recall a memory or an event when it bubbles up as an intrusive thought (one Jenova or Sephiroth doesn't want him to recall accurately anyway) whereas, the red/pink ones are just memories he is repressing on his own rather than being repressed/rewritten by Jenova, but who knows.
Yo same man. Red is actual event that happened and repressed.
Very well could be on the money regarding the rainbow effect being strictly a representation of lifestream energies rather than a new branch reality/timesplit.
I'm still leaning more that a new reality (with a saved Aerith) was formed by Cloud's parry though because he 'breached the boundry of fate' when he alone entered the whisper wall in the forgotten capital much as the party did on the highway in Remake and Sephiroth explicitly tells us worlds are created when the boundries of fate are breached. Could be misreading what is meant by that though. That line in conjunction with what Cloud sees at the end, Aerith and the scar in the sky along with Aerith's "saw what you did back there. Thank you," line and Zack's parting "save her," line do make me think it is more of a saved flower girl in a parallel branched world thing happening, but no way to confirm til part 3.
Yeap
I don’t think we can base that much off the dialog in the final battles. I feel like there were no editors for that section of the game lol
Yuffie is joking with Cloud about how much fun she is like they shouldn’t be grieving.
Cloud does his “nothing personal” limit break commentary to both Jenova and Sephiroth.
They need to patch those final fights bad.
Seal have you noticed at the end of the game cloud see’s 3 things. In the blank Materia he sees himself, then he sees the world upside down (maybe indicating parallel universes) but anyways… the dark materia has these red ripple effects on it. Maybe that symbolizes bad timelines??? I feel you can interpret this better than me. 🧠
Also how come nobody talks about sephiroth at the edge of creation? You can literally see the “rainbow” ripple in the sky. It’s their in remake as well.
While I understand the complaints about the idea that Aerith is a Jenova illusion at the end, I also don’t like the idea that it’s really Aerith’s spirit talking to Cloud. She says too many things that sound like what Cloud would want her to say, rather than what Aerith (as established in Rebirth) would actually say. It just doesn’t make sense that she would gleefully send Cloud after Sephiroth when just a chapter earlier she had said to leave him to her, and to focus on his mental health.
I'm not against Jenova-Aerith I don't think that's the case. I noticed that Cloud only speaks to Aerith when he's out of earshot of everyone else. That suggests, to me, that Cloud is aware, on some level, that Aerith is dead. Aerith also doesn't speak to him when others are near.
So I think that Aerith is only in Cloud's head. A symbol of his denial rather than anything malevolent.
Part 3 could reveal that it is Jenova so I'm not committing myself to any single theory.
Been waiting for this since sector 6 mentioned you recorded it a few days ago 🙂
Your theory about the nature of the multiverse is interesting!
What do you read into Sephiroth’s explanation of it, though? He explicitly says that the worlds are ever branching; he calls it the “true nature of reality”. If we go with the theory that the other worlds were created by Aerith, how does this play into how Sephi’s describing them?
Great video
In japanese he says there's 'many layers of worlds,' it's more like different realities stacked on top of one another and less branching, so whenever a change occurs a new world gets added to this. Viewing it this way, it makes more sense how things/people can slip in between them or maybe even swap different outcomes into the 'prime' world.
Great video guys - really enjoyed it and some great details uncovered
Idk if I missed it somehow but did we gain an explanation about the code Roche got on his arm? It was not a number like the rest... Maybe something to do with the new experiments he was making with the transmuted robes.
Gleniroth rekindles the war between Wutai and Shrina because of Sister Ray.
The game makes it a point to tell us that Sister Ray can reach Wutai. A war with Wutai would force Rufus to leave Sister Ray in Junon and not move it to Midgar to destroy the Northern Craters barrier. Just a theory I thought about anyway
This is easily the best spoiler discussion I’ve seen of this game. Great stuff!
My guess for part 3 is Resolve. Now I just have to wait 3ish years to see if I'm right.
The ONLY musical letdown…was that we didn’t get a Rebirth rendition of Birth of a god when we fought bizarro Sephiroth.
I think the eeriness of the grieving scene by the water is because Cloud is clearly broken and we are seeing some of that from Tina's point of view. The ending scene has a lighter feel because we are seeing it from Cloud's point of view and he thinks everything is peachy.
On a separate note I don't subscribe to the idea that this is a sequel. I think the story has been too similar to the OG. At this point I think the Re trilogy is just replacing the OG so it has more connectedness with the rest of the compilation. I think after these games we will see a remake/remaster of dirge and finally a sequel to it if we don't get dirge somehow mashed into the next game.
It feels like Sephiroth has casted "Doom" in the sky at the end. Considering it's Gi Nattaks final move and his tribe are the creators of the black materia, it'd certainly fit
Such a good point. I only did Queen's Blood my first playthrough and did all the other side quests in my new game +. Thought there was only one section that was poorly paced. Wish I did the protorelic quests before I finished the first time in retrospect, but that's it.
Na the protorelic quest are best for the 2nd play through. I busted ass fighting dual summons and Gilgamesh at lv50 on Dynamic only to find out that you don't get the unlocked items unless you do it on Hard Mode 😭. Now I know for Part 3 I'm playing on Normal and bursting through all for the story. Hard Mode is for the completion run.
Revival
In regards to Cid and Ifalna... many ties keep going to when Aerith was 8. Thats 14 years. It'd make Cid 16. Lets not forget, Cloud joined Shinra with his aspirations just a bit before turning 14, war time, and Nibelheim's depiction of biys becoming adults at 13 to leave town and get work. The depiction in sector 7's slums of tweens seeking jobs and aporenticeships. With this in mind, let alone Sephiroth's past, Yuffie's past... a 16 year old pilot doesnt seem far fetched. Japan during WW2 (where the revelations of Unit 731 heavily influenced Shinra's lab lore for deep ground and making Hojo even crazier for compilation lore as an example of influences), Japan recruited as young as 15.
For other interesting stuff, the "why do we fight gods in jrpgs" is quite enlightening. Anyway.. Point is it wasnt all that surprising. Aerith's novel lore focuses heavily on 15 years ago, where she's still lab bound. So, 1 more year, Cid'd be 16, chance meeting with Ifalna?
Suppose it depends. Before the lab, or after? If before, then...14 year old Cid? Still plausible given when and who else joined at which ages, but.. hm.
I posted my own reaction to the ending, looking forward to discussing the ending with everyone!
Emerald witch Minerva. Given Emerald Weapon sits behind Minerva, in a cave filled with emerald crystals. That said, do we take the two as literally being them, or anagrams to help explain the past?
That’s what I thought lol.
Perhaps… though Lucrecia seems to match Vincent’s description. Lot of other clues too…
@@schrodingersbabysealIts an interesting thought to explore and quite possible. Added more since I was pressed originally, but at first blush there's so much pointing to her, and visual similarities in the remake cetra scene's main female in the CG are quite uncanny, I have no doubt she will appear at some point even if not necessarily this role. Have thrown in another good question for good measure in the edit.
In lifestream white and lifestream black it talks about how Sephiroth sheds everything, making the core of his being his hatred towards Cloud- Which is in part why he can show up in Clouds mind(also Jenova but w/e). I think Omni-Aerith did, something similar...by taking advantage of the same singularity which is our Aerith's death. Making the core of her being her love for the planet and Cloud
"It's about saving the world...and you"
Or if you're familiar with FF14 lore, Aerith dying could give Omni a power boost..something akin to a Rejoining...which is awfully similar to a reunion...but i digress- Man you guys really get the brain goin!
PS Rejoin's definition is to "Join together again or...Reunite" FF7 Rejoin sounds fairly plausible.
Maybe I'm behind the curve here, but why do people think the Edge of Creation is in Cloud's head? Don't the other party members acknowledge that he disappeared when he was teleported there at the end of Remake and during the fight with Sephiroth at the end of Rebirth?
The power team returns!
What do you feel about the intentional subversion of expectations with the narrative? E.g. “The unknown Journet will continue”, changing fate (highly alluding to a change in Aeriths fate) -> Suprise you can only change fate and alter Aeriths destiny in another timeline or something…. Do you feel that there is a narrative theme disconnect or lack of continuity between remake and rebirth?
Just to play devils advocate on the topic of Aerith jenova shenanigans theory whats your take on Cloud mimicking Aerith's exact line in the end fmv from the last interlude. Reason I bring it up is because it is narratively consistent with Cloud mimicking Sephiroths dialogue when he revisits the naturally formed materia on the way to the reactor. Great discussion as always ❤
The Dragonball z abridged people did a ff7 parody that had an explanation for Bugenhagen not telling Nanaki the truth about Seto: they got drunk partying after winning the Gi war and forgot to tell him. Better than square gave us...
I don't understand why people are so upset about the possibility of Glen being Cloud's father. I frankly don't care if he is or isn't. It doesn't change the story for me in anyway. Am I missing something, or are people just getting upset over nothing?
Another take:
Seph wanted us to defy/defeat Destiny, so more "worlds/dimensions" are created so he can HARVEST strong emotions (shall I give you this pear?) from all of said "realities" and become more powerful than ever.
For a strong intro for the 3rd game they should have Cloud and Zack in the back of the truck on the way to Midgar with Zack’s lines “So we’re friends now right?” and then show them under fire, then cut the flashback scene right after they show Zack hide Cloud behind the rocks for his last stand. Tense opening scene without revealing the truth to the audience who don’t know what’s going on yet. Would be so🔥🔥
Crazy no proof theory time. Leslie’s girlfriend is gonna turn out to be Elena and we’ll find out in Wutai. And Chadley is clouds brother duh 🙄 😂
Gongaga was gorgeous but the navigation was hell so I agree on that. The music didn’t bother me.
How does Cid's timeline not make sense? He's 32, Aerith is 22. They've gone out of their way to make Cid basically Han Solo at this point, Maverick from Top Gun maybe.. but you get the idea. How crazy is it that he was a hotshot pilot between 18-22 years old and potentially saw Iflana with her 8-12 year old little girl. It's really not that crazy considering how much of Aerith's life was spent at Shinra (7 years?). It makes sense
Ok but guys since when did Red become infallible? Like he's omni red? No I dont think so. Even in OG who makes the mistake in giving up the black Materia? Its RED! Remember he's only a teenager. So him "sensing" Aerith when its actually Jenova or Sexyroth falls in line with what happens in OG! All im saying is him saying "Aerith?" can in noway be the nail in the coffin. To me its more evidence that it is a manipulation.
I don't think your theory of Zack coming to the "Main" timeline holds a lot of water. It really ignores a lot of other potentiality that they seem to have set up. If the idea is that this omni-Aerith and omni-Sephiroth are truly at the pinnacle of this multi-story conflict - this Remake/Redux/Sequel of all the FF7 content, I feel that thematically it makes more sense of Aerith to be building up her own "team" away from the main group in order to counter Sephiroth/Jenova from an unexpected angle. Cloud already has everyone he needs within the main group in order to succeed, and Zack seems like he will be a much more helpful proponent if he is working within these other planes to truly power up whatever Aerith is planning.
Aerith doesn't only bring back Zack. She also brings back Biggs. They share the same story beats. If she knew that Biggs would fail, then there's literally no point to the interlude "storyline". Why bother? So I don't think we're done with him either. Zack leaving behind the ability to "Stamp hop" would negate his ability to bolster Aerith's ability to connect with others through these lifestream planes. Biggs's dialogue about "minor" roles also seems very integral, and gives possible insight to what Aerith wants to do with characters we thought we were done with. Aerith is building up her own army within the lifestream, that's why the Aerith whispers choose to save those that they do and bring them elsewhere. I feel pretty confident that we're further not done with Wedge or Jessie either. Biggs's being saved ties to these two characters as well, and Cloud's trial at the temple SPECIFICALLY targets the plate drop. Cloud doesn't need to just overcome the guilt and despair of Zack and Aerith's deaths. He also needs to reconcile with the deaths of Avalanche. Having those three characters still play a major role through the lifestream, lead by Zack, would be the most heroic, badass thing that Cloud, Tifa, and Barret need to really give that final great push to overcome these bigger and badder odds.
It just seems odd to know and pinpoint these connections that Aerith has with Zack AND Biggs, and listen to those two's dialogue together, and still come away with the conclusion that it's not worth talking about and interacting with theories regarding the 3rd game.
i Don’t like FFX as much as many others, from the PS2 era, FFXII is favorite.,
Rebirth is the best FF i ever played.
Here is my FF List: FFVI, FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX, FFX, FFXII, FFXV, FFXVI and also FFVII Remake.
I tried FF XIII, could not stomach that game. Don’t like it.
Love this, but I think your purple smoke anti-Jerrith take with Glenn is much of a reach as Pro-Jerrith takes on Red's reaction to her when you think about it.
When Glenn is standing around, there is no purple smoke, only when he appears out of thin air. The difference to Jerrith is that Glenn is physically there, or a robbed guy is. Sephiroth has to make a robbed guy physically transport out of thin air to then take the form of Glenn through. That's when there is purple smoke.
Sephiroth has never needed purple smoke to create a vision of himself in Cloud's head. Sephiroth has even taken the form of Cloud in Cloud's mind back in Remake Ch.8 after falling from Reactor 5.
Not saying it works, but Red was one of two characters that Jenova could deceive in the Original FF7 to give the black materia to Cloud, so there is a precedent there.
No if you remember Jenova can't just hop on the plane with cloud because of the rest of the party!! They all have a shared reaction of what happened in aeriths death that cloud witnessed something completely different. If she just hopped on the plane 1. Tifa or Barrett would look at cloud like he needs to be in a institution literally or 2. They would see "Aerith" hop on and freak the fck out cause she's. supposed to he dead! But she's not to cloud. Thats what Jenova is attacking directly. Its specifically tailored to Cloud. Thats why she's not having full out interactions with all of them at the same time!
So on the interlude dream worlds… I suspect they are the dreams sustained within the four whispers that saved Zach. They could only split into four increasingly small dream worlds before running out of Mako to transform energy into matter. I think all these Worlds seen in the remake trilogy are created via the same mechanism as materia, taking dreams and memory and via the consumption of Mako transform them into matter. Once the Mako is expended, the created World is devoured by the nightmares (black whispers) in order to reclaim that frozen Mako (physical matter) and return it to the lifestream’s energy
I think its not a multiverse, but clouds subconscious. He never faced Zach's death so Zach IS still alive there. I think that rift is clouds mind fracturing. "Marking the world's end" Thats why only he can see it in reality. When he gets put back together and comes to terms with everything, Zach will end with it
Why wouldn't it be called Reconstruction?
Also, it IS NOT the black materia. Why do people keep saying that? The black materia IS the temple. It is at the bottom of the crater at the end of this game. Aerith even said it is a fake. No. This think is the 'dark key' materia or something like that. Plus. It seems to have the same red stripe in it as the sky so maybe zack is inside it or something like that.