R-454b Will Be The New Refrigerant Of The Future Starting 2025
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 3 окт 2024
- The new refrigerant of the future staring 2025 will be R-454b. R454b is an A2L, mildly flammable refrigerant. R-32, R-454b, and R-466a have been the leaders as possible replacements for the current ones because they have no ozone depletion potential and much less global warming potential. It looks like R-454b has emerged as the winner. Leading manufacturers were put in a situation where they had to decide which refrigerant they were going to use that the environmental authorities also approved.
🦊Please visit our website @ www.foxfamilyhv...
Visit us on our social media pages:
📘 Facebook @ / foxfamilyheatingaircon...
👦 LinkedIn @ / greg-fox-46ab48110
💻 Twitter @ / foxfamilyhvac
👨🔧Please help our channel produce more quality content for those interested in our industry. SUPPORT HVAC and the BLUE COLLAR TRADES! / foxfamily
Let's hear your thoughts! R454b is the new refrigerant of the future in residential hvac. Starting January 1st, 2023.
Time to start stockpiling R-410a when a Deal comes around.
Fox Family Heating and Air Conditioning Try to buy a new 134a refrigerator for your house or any commercial kitchen equipment it has all been propane for the last five years as a refrigerant.
@Cameron Eittreim greg@foxfamilyhvac.net send me your resume. No promises but I'll see what we can do
I wish the industry went pure R32
A different HVAC youtube channel says R-32 will be the replacement and units will begin to ship with it in late 2021? Who is right?
Funny thing is with some basic engineering modifications of an r22 we can use r290. If you follow the money you will see that r290 is not as profitable though... here we go again with another replacement refrigerant.
all about money
Yep and I’m sure one of the trillion dollar bills passed during our covid times was specifically created to benefit a family member to make them rich with our tax dollars.
Flammable refrigerants, yee haw!
R32 makes the best sense. Pure. Cheap. And more efficient.
So why doest the industry use it?
@@jonhenning Allegedly, r32 has a higher global warming potential. Many manufacturers are switching to an even lower GWP refrigerant now to avoid having to switch in the future.
As a 38 year Florida HVAC contractor, the last thing we can afford is a refrigerant that requires special storage, suppression and handling requirements.
A1 refrigerant R466a has no flammability and will not cause huge increases to contractors and homeowners to employ.
We’re in huge trouble already, costs are out of control now!
Follow the money
To hell with California
Didn't you know? We can just into our stash and get some more money to pay for new equipment, new storage, and new labor, then we can use our time machine to make time for new training. And of course customers won't have any problems or hesitation to pay for these new added costs. The customers, like the technicians, have piles of money just sitting in the back room untouched. In fact they may all just change out their old systems immediately.
I’ve been in the domestic appliance business for over 40 years and what has never been addressed is the lack of quality control on the new products coming out. Most of the old R12 fridges and R22 domestic A/C units used a much better quality tubing in the coils etc. I see copper rust like never before and the newer units have many Chinese components that are thin wall tubing and inferior quality tubing which causes more leaks and more products to the land fill. If quality was mandatory, changing refrigerants becomes redundant if recovered and handled wisely. Time to consider the environmental cost to “recycling” every 4-6 years because we allow junk into the country. I see hundreds of water coolers, dehumidifiers and fridges all made in China stacked up at the local dump. I would rather pay double the price to get locally made, high quality domestic goods. Don’t get me started on the other appliances like washers and dryers…my 35 year old Maytag washer may not be “sexy” like the digital new ones but it still runs strong.
They jumped the gun with 410A, and now 21 years later tell me, "It was just an interim refrigerant." Yeah, tell that to consumers paying $120-$300 a pound for refrigerant in a few years. How many jugs of refrigerant are we going to have to carry on a truck??? It's rediculous.
You would almost think this is just like prescription drugs, as soon as the patent runs out, time for something new.
I am sure China, India, and all other countries will just fall in line with the EPA demands to 'save world ' or whatever.
There was some tech who came over my house and said my AC was illegal, and I had to "upgrade" to the new AC. I told him my AC was not illegal, just undocumented and that he needs to GTFO of my house and I got a better tech who fixed the system.
The EPA is going chevron deference abusing this "power". Someone needs to put the EPA in it's place.
My fear is that we have a leak on the evaporator coil and it ignites. So we save the ozone but blow up houses.
@@murkyturkey5238
😂
Do you not do any reading? The new systems will have sensors on the evap coil to detect leaks. If one is detected it will immediately shut the compressor down and the system will wait 15 minutes and the sensor will go off again if it still detects a leak the system will 100% shut down until a tech restarts it. If no leak is detected then the system will restart and operate as normal. I'm not even a residential tech and I know this. I'm a commercial tech I couldn't work on just R22/410a small 5 tons or less it would get so boring. Do some reading on the new system, all it is a money game phase out R12 then 22 then 410 then it will be R32 and R454B it will all get phased out so the next company can make a buck while people with systems like R22 are stuck either paying 600$ per lbs of refrigerant or pay for a conversion like 407 but either way they will make it harder and harder to repair and it will only get more expensive
@@cameron3991
I have been out of AC for 7 years so I don’t really check what’s going on. I still think something bad is going to happen. Safety devices or not a leak is going to be a bad thing. Unfortunately you are right they are going to make it hard on poor people. My neighbor has no AC and I live in FL.
And you trust sensors? Oh wow@@cameron3991
@cameron3991 so if the system shuts Down it’s gonna magically stop the leak?
When you look into HVAC if you arent a pro and see how they keep changing the gas it will really annoy you. I just got a new system last year and R-410A is already "old" so by the time I will need servicing itll be obsolete.
After watching what’s going on in the world, I don’t want California or Washington setting the tone for any industry
Just Moscow.
@@sbc383zz ?
Why, all HVAC must go totally carbon- neutral by 2030 or no HVAC permit. All must be R-290 or R-600 only and 95+ heating or above efficiency.
Yeah maybe you'd prefer Mississippi? Can't stop time. Can't stop progress, get used to it or move out of the way. Kids today are gonna be picking your nursing home one day and they do care about destroying the environment they are gonna be stuck with 30 years from now. Thank Gd for California or this country would be still putting lead, PCBs and asbestos into things.
Couldn't agree more
For me will be better to force manufacturers to build better systems not meant to leak after the first o second year (Goodman). Keep working on efficiency but using the refrigerant we already have, r22 for me is the best one out there, working on low pressures and getting much better temperatures out of it
I agree why can't they build Evaporator/Condenser coils that don't leak!
Microchannel coils suck
Install quality Trane equipment and coil leaks are no a problems
I have a 24 yr R22 air conditioner, still; working in 110 degree summers. I know its not efficient anymore, but it works.
The first Air Conditioners our family installed was Luxaire in 1956. The 2 ton used R12. Replacing the R12 and 2ton TXV, with R22 and a 3 ton TXV created a 3 ton. Same compressor./condenser.
DuPont owns the trade name"FREON and licensed the refrigerant chemical makeup to other manufactures such as Honeywell, Arkema, Chemcour and others.
DuPont held the patent to R410a Puron, which it licensed to Carrier. Puron, such a safe sounding name.
DuPont patents run out, so follow the money, a new refrigerant is needed.
Google DuPont family and how they earned their millions/billions.-Gun powder.
R12 was used as a refrigerant in commercial refrigeration and in home refrigerators, and in cars. R22 was the norm for homes. I know, because I started in this business in the 70's. Now that's not to say that there wasn't the occasional system that had R12, because there was one or two that we ran across, but that was one in ten thousand compared to R22. In addition, R12 was also used as a propellant in aerosol cans, it was also one of the first refrigerants that was banned. It was replaced with R134a.
Hey Mitch!
R11 was used in low pressure chillers. They are sold in drums due to how high the boiling point is. It’s also used to be used to flush refrigerant lines whenever a compressor goes bad.
@@davidperry4013 how high the boiling point is. Low boiling point refrigerants evaporate immediately, like r-12 at -29.75°C vs r-11 which boils at 23.71°C which is room temperature.
Thanks for this! I just dumped my long term service company because they were trying to steer me into replacing my perfectly good 22 system which had sprung a small leak. New guy fixed the leak, charged it up and good to go, $315.00.
He doesn't know what he was doing. Lol 315 bucks he just shammed you.
@@reubenryo 6 lbs of r22 plus service call. Don't call that a sham.
Whoever it was undercharged you like crazy 2,000 dollar job minimum.
@@reubenryo gotcha! Small Town, honest guy!
mine had frozen evaporator. The tech charged 2 lbs, 150/lbs, plus labor $75. Total $375.
I searched around for R22 to save for future. The best deal I can get is $220 (included Tax) for 6.25 lbs.
My friend has the same problem leak like you, he got quote from local about more than $2000, that included $1500 for refill the system.
It's shell game - the EPA, the chemicals producers, and the equipment manufacturers are all in cahoots - we're gonna suffer right along with the customers - time to add another refrigerant rack, fellas.
Very true...
The tree huggers are going to continue to mess us this industry.
@@notanewbie1718 Yeah, they keep moving the goalposts.
It's tough enough to get the customer's trust...then we gotta be the bearer's of bad news who keep saying, "Old refrigerant", "can't repair", "they don't make condensors for that refrigerant anymore", "Can't get that coil", "New refrigerant", "NEW New Refrigerant", "...no that new unit I just sold you to replace your Freon unit that runs on Puron is being fazed out now too...you have to get a 454b unit now."
FFS...people are REALLY gonna looks at us like crooks now.
Exactly. It was never about the environment. Try telling that to the Canadians...
@@scrambler350 the whole thing is bulls***. If co2 is so bad, how tf can you say with a straight face that any "new" chemical is acceptable if it has gwp of 500 times co2!!! And flammable to boot. Even 10x would be too high. Why can't they find one with 0 gwp? Then I'll take them seriously.
That HFO-1234yf costs about $55 per pound. That means $427 just for the 7.71 lbs (31.1%) of HFO-1234yf... then you need to buy 16.29 lbs of HFC-32 to complete the mix. R32 costs about the same as R-410a, so $4 per pound. So maybe $65. We will be looking at $493 per 25lb cylinder for R-454b... so we will need to explain to customers why the new stuff costs as much as old R-22
The "yf" actually stands for... YOU'RE F***ED!!!
1234 is amazingly toxic if burned as well.
At least with 22 and the ersatz "phosgene", you could get to fresh air and be fine.
1234, as i understand it, sets up a chemical reaction in your blood.
Lol r410a is not $4 a pound. Or are you talking about the manufacture price to make it?
@@murkyturkey5238 I am talking about the price I last bought it for a year ago when I posted that it was a bit over $100 for a 25 lb cylinder. Now it's quite a bit more probably $12 to $16 per lb last I checked
@@NETWizzJbirk 2 years ago r410a was $100, at least for me. Last year about $200 and this year it’s already at $500. I see what you’re saying it’s ridiculous. And let’s not even talk about r22 lol poor old bastards
I currently have an older model refrigerator that is avocado green and was purchased at Montgomery wards that remains in fine operating order, never had a leak, R-22 still in the system, lines have never been pierced.
That was back in the day when Refrigerators were built like Battleships and lasted forever!
Hey Wow I bet more than half the people here never heard of Montgomery Wards. My mother liked different color appliances she had one probably exactly like yours. 👍
@@josephpuchel6497 yes the colors they had back then 🤮. It was my Grandparents, it now a garage refrigerator that I just gave to an older couple that was in desperate need of one and on a fixed income. I may get it back in a few years, they gave their children instructions to call me when they are moved to a care facility. 😢
Pretty sure that R22 was not used in domestic fridges…it will be R12 not R22.
R-12 was used in refrigerators, not R-22. I remember buying cans of R-12 at K-Mart for 88 cents per can.
My r22 window unit should be the standard. ICE COLD!!
32 is a azeotrope. End of conversation. 454b is blend of 1234yf and Honeywell holds the patent on that. Meaning that they can control the price of the gas. 32 for the win
I’m going to buy r134 to put in my home a/c unit.
“Warehouses will be full of perfectly legal R-22 until at least 2030”
As a young tech that’s not exactly as comforting as you make it sound. Not to mention that sure, we can physically buy it but our supplier just asked us for $1400 for a single jug of R-22. This transition is going to price a LOT of people out of the market. I live in a poor rural town and people wince are a $6000 heat pump swap out. What do you think is going to happen when I tell them I can charge the R-22 system up for $1200 or I can quote them a new system for $8000?
Thats not to mention all the independent man-in-a-van techs that will be completely skewed from this transition. Sounds a lot like the transition over to fluorescent lightbulbs or the mandatory features on baseline cars. It’s the government directing the market before the market is ready.
pricing folks out of the market.
You nailed it.
Dont eat beef, its bad for the environment. Dont us AC, its bad for the environment. Dont breed, its bad for the environment.
Dont live, its bad for the environment.
@@eoinmcmahon7007 All the government rules are made by lawyers; they surely know how to create more present and future business!
The needs of world environmental needs requires most live in cities in modern EnergyStar certified housing.
They can forfeit the cell phones and cigarettes
Good vid ! I Wonder How the Fire Departments Feel about this ? 10 Lbs of Flammable Refrigerant in Each 5 Ton System. I Wish They Would just Switch to R-290 and be done with it. You Know they are trying to get there. No More Recovery Equiptment Required ! yay !!! Going back to the Good il days of Dumping a Whole a/c charge to atmosphere. 😂🤣😂🤣
I used to work with R-170 ( ethane ) when I first started in the trade. 1980. I did not even know it was flammable. I was so young and nobody told me. We used regular old r-22 Tecumseh compressors. Nothing special. It was used in low temp cascade refrigeration. I Never had any problems. Not one ! And ethane is about as flammable as it gets ! So , Don’t Worry about it , I worked with it for 10-20 years. I even trans filled 140 lb cylinders of it myself into smaller cylinders for travel to far away locations I had to fly to.
All the anti - spark / you have to buy new Equiptment to handle this is just - We want to scam you into buying New tools. It’s not a big deal. Just be careful. Only Real Problem I see is if Someone Was Working on a 2 Stage system and Did not Recover Both stages before working on the systems. Put a Torch to the wrong stage and You are History ! & Of Course if u are a Hvac That Smokes ! i suggest You Become an Electrician.
Great info OC! Thanks for the input!
@@foxfamilyheatingandaircond4696 👍.
What do they think about propane gas grills and propane heaters in homes? Get over your fears of flammable refrigerant
@@adamjankowski7679
R454b is 68.9% R32 and 31.1% 1234yf. Doesn't everyone love blends? Only takes 45min. + to check the charge on a new install. If R454b is almost 70% R32 anyway, just seems like R32 is a better fit for the industry. And it's not flammable. Can't wait till customers start talking amongst themselves saying "but he said R410a was better than R22 and now he's saying the flammable one is better."
ah geez. 1234. poison. just freaking great.
It should be interesting. I have quite a few RTU's that hold excess of 100lbs of R22. I have been converting them as I make repairs or compressor replacements but, still have a lot of equipment with R22.
100 lbs? That’s a big rtu. Have fun with that 😂
How many tons are they? And what are they for? A skyscraper or something industrial
@@murkyturkey5238 90 ton Mcquay. I have six 40 ton McQuay that take 80lbs each
@@murkyturkey5238 they are commercial not industrial. Big commercial buildings have lots of older equipment that can't just be changed out. The cost for someone like myself it would cost in millions for the amount of RTU's we have on out roofs.
Do you think we will be able to convince China or India about this? I think not. North America is NOT THE BIGGEST POLLUTER. The dignified eastern hemisphere is.
Follow the money, even the people at the EPA. changes mean more money for those invested in the perpetual changes.
Easy to keep pushing the 10yr lifespan sales tactic - that's what the manufacturers want!
They don't want a system to last 20yrs plus - they want you buying a new system every 10 years and are happy to use 'global warming potential' as a way to leverage that...454b has higher running pressure just like 410a, go figure.
More leaks, more coils and new systems they get to sell.
It's all about $. And who truly pays? The people. And soon after the new is put in they'll yet add another making it obsolete.
The old r22 were a lot cooler and more more efficient. The new systems run a lot longer and don't last as long. Did you notice how how the warranty on any new system is not as good as the old systems? They don't make things like they used to. The they'll continue to rob you. Make things more expensive for you to buy and cheaper for them to make using garbage materials saying it's more efficient. Lies. I'm a senior. And I watched this country go to Hell in a hand basket. And of you're my age you did too. And you know what I mean.
32 is been used for 10+years in europe/japan... In reefer some equipment is 410a so it will be interesting to see how's it gonna be...
Interesting
Yeah so if the industry is already geared up to do it I have no problem with it. I have a problem with making drastic decisions over some tree hugging when we could reduce energy use to offset by requiring home builders to actually adher to building codes.
R290 for me, we already have many flammable things in our homes, NG and in my case oxy-Acet tanks in my basement so what difference would a flammable refrigerant make in the long run. Our AC has been running for many years and never leaked and if it was R290 just like NG you'd be instantly be aware of it. I especially feel the same about Auto ACs, there are already so many highly flammable things under the hood what difference would a little propane make?
George
Auto AC s are driven by a belt not a electric motor inside the compressor and I have never heard of a auto AC having a electrical burnout that burns the refrigerant. Burnt refrigerant courses pause Jean gas witch is a nerve agent. So when you have compressor windings burning in what h as h as happens to the explosive refrigerant that they claimed is slightly primable when you read the safety data sheets it is highly flammable and explosive
Pure r32 should've been used, instead we get this mixture like 410A. R-454b is A mixture of R32 and R1234yf. Other manufacturers have gone completely R32.
That’s why this industry sucks
R-22 leaks far less often than 410 , and 410 constantly leaks. Should have never moved on from 22
Or develop AC systems that run on R134a. R134a is micro channel coil friendly due to lower pressures.
R22 is a hcfc not a cfc it doesn’t hurt the ozone
Your timeline on 410 A is a little off we started using it in 96 and R12 in home air conditioning and heatpumps Was not used after 1961 59 years ago That’s when carrier introduced R500 For heat pumps Because our 22 has high discharge temperature and a critical temperature of 236° which is a leading causes of compressor failure. The problem with 410 A it has a critical temperature of 187° and the equipment last half as long as the R- 22.The environmentalist have moved to target and now they do not talk about ozone depletion at all. Like we just cured that one. Now they have moved the target to global warming potential which is bullshit also there is no science behind it.
The environmentalist that’s forcing us to move to 410 A reduce the life of the equipment by 10 to 15 years And made plug coil or dirty filters causing premature compressor failure. The reality is the states that are passing these rules are way out of bounds and the history that I’m telling you about is proof they don’t know what they’re doing. The solution is political we need to vote for Trump and he will change the regulations during his next term at override the states that are out of control like California where you live. And we need to address the copper sourcing used by the manufactures and the line set companies that are terrible quality from China. That is also costing our customers thousands of dollars. The oldest heat pump that I removed That was still working was installed in 1956 and it worked tell 2012 and it used R12 as a refrigerant.Refrigerants that are stable and have a high critical temperature and are compatible with the oils and varnish on the motor windings make for equipment that last a long time. Environmentalist forget this.
Great info and thanks for your experienced input. I guess I was talking about the equipment changeover from 22 to 410. But again some great info from you 😁
If I remember correctly it was promoted as Puron.
Correct if we fixed the cheap copper and leaking issues we wouldn't have leaking equipment there for wouldn't have to worry bout what refrigerant its using cause it wouldn't leak out right
@@jhhvacplumbing1944 EXACTLY!!!
Hold the manufacturers to a higher standard when it comes to leaking equipment and the refrigerant being used possibly leaking is less of a concern - focus on what makes the equipment last longer and work BETTER!
mike_HVAC The problem is when the plumbers quit using copper And went to Pex all are recycled copper was sent to China the copper market on recycled copper is controlled by the Chinese communist party and they do not have the best quality in mind.And all the recycle copper is used for heat transfer.All the new refined copper 99.98% pure are used in electrical industry. We need to vote for politicians that will put the political pressure to bring the refining back to United States And are allies.Since one country controls the Processing of copper recycling the Manufactures of equipment have no choice.And that is why they have switched largely to aluminum coils.
In my humble opinion we need more CO2 hvacs. OD 0, GWP 1.
And could heat homes in polar winters and cool them in Saharian summers.
BTW, since when did electric motors emit fumes?
And all enumerated and many more refrigerants are so very similar in characteristics they should be readily interchangable, maybe with minor modifications to the system but the systems themselves are basically identical.
Good input! Thanks
I love how R-717 is “unusable” in residential and vehicles, but you can work in a 200,000 sqft processing facility with tens of thousands of pounds of the stuff, used as a refrigerant.
More efficient, cheap, widely available, ozone friendly, responsible for megatons of food production, operates at lower pressures, self alarming odar… I mean, ammonia has a lot going for it.
There is a reason we use ammonia instead of freons in large systems.
Really wish we could see R-717 brought into smaller applications.
This stuff sounds like it's gonna create a backdraft.
It will take several deaths from it igniting before the EPA gets rid of it.
Buts what is to come next.
Thank you for your help buddy. God bless you.
How about some practical advice?
I jut bought a new 410A system- not yet installed. Can I set it up for an alternative refrigerant? Are these new ones even available?
Failing that, looks like I need to stockpile a bottle of 410A just to cover myself.
LOL, It will never end, they will find a fault with 454B, and you will be changing out that system before long. And somehow nothing is compatible with the previous Freon. Somebody is making a ton of money.
Meanwhile the rest of the world changes nothing
What respectable hvac contractor would sell a shirt with their company name for any ass hat to wear out in public and could cause negative effects on the company just for a quick dollar. Like seeing that drunk guy in a bar start a fight.
Just remember he’s from San Francisco
😂😂😂😂
Why do you assume the manufacturers need to please California? I think they should all just continue making 410a systems and if your legislatures won’t allow them, pretty soon they can live in mansions that are 105F
You know what the b stands for right it's butane it will cause explosion when they get to hot
Why not just go to r717 , CO2, and r290 and get it over with?
These are all proven refrigerants and time tested.
These are the answer and keep the refrigerant ouside the building in a
self contained sealed unit with an air to water heat pump. Only water enters
the building
I do not think the Flammability is all that major of a problem but my question is about the vacuum pump "why would it have to be A2L certified ?" if the refrigerant is out of the system.
All I care about is: Will box store portable dehumidifiers last a few years? R410a pressures are just too high. A vacuum low side sounds good to me.
Wrong on when the guy in this video says " to bring you up to speed on the refrigerants, just a generation ago homes were using R12 to cool their homes" that is 8 GENERATIONS AGO 1950 R12 ENDED AND R22 CAME IN.
Refrigerant is heavier than air.. but also floats to the atmosphere…. I see a contradiction here.
i believe the uv rays break down the molecules which then allows atoms of certain elements to indeed flow up into the atmosphere
Honeywell and carrier corporation stand to make billions of dollars for R454 like they did off of R410 a . why not use R32 it’s existing and it’s a much better Freon. my prediction is R32 will cost half of what R454 will cost
Just drop in R458a and keep making R-22 units
Hi when will Rheem come out with the new units?
What about R290?
The EPA is about as honest as the NHI & the CDC!
I'm working on a new AC system with 1 GWP, no toxicity, no ozone depletion. It works like this... the machine creates dry ice, when you want cooling you simply take the dry ice place it in front of a fan and turn the fan on. The problem is: when the dry ice evaporates due to heat it creates a fog. *ha ha kill, kill, kill - you know Friday the 13th audio when Jason comes out to play* LOL.
PS: I'm in the process of putting my thoughts on video. This topic is going to be HOT. pun intended.
Dry ice - CO2- in your house, is that safe?
@@UltraHydrophobiccoat not if Jason Vorhees comes out.
The company that I've been using for The Last 5 Years to do my biannually maintenance on my air conditioning heating unit which is a York package unit on the roof said that they're going to be changing the refrigerant and they're going to be facing out what they've been using. Thank you for clarifying that they will have the 410 refrigerant for quite a long time because he was saying that they won't. I'm going to call the company and ask them about it and if they tell me that they're going to go ahead and face that totally out and I'll have to replace my system then I will look for another company that doesn't try to rip me off. This happens more and more and then you should know because there's a lot of these kind of companies in the Southern California area and it makes me sick! Thanks again for the heads up. I wish I could hire you and your company to take care of my unit for me but you are too long of a distance to do that. I live in Loma Linda California and it was wondering if you could refer me to a honest and well respected company I might be able to do business within the extreme near future. Thanks again and appreciate your honesty.
First off it’s “phase” out, not “face” out. You typed that twice. The companies are not being unreasonable because as time goes by R410a will become so expensive that it’s not worth paying for gas. Currently, the going price is $150- 200 for a pound of R22. Some charge more. Imagine if a 3 ton system has an evaporator leak and lost its charge. The evaporator replacement would be $1000 plus about $1000 for refrigerant. Does it make sense for a customer to spend $2500 (with labor) to fix an old system? I think it would be a disservice to the customer to repair an aged unit. It makes more sense to spend $4k on a new system than $2.5 on an old system. I currently do not offer R22 and as soon as R410a becomes over $1000 a bottle, I will not service them. A leaking system will only keep leaking at a higher rate. Even if you fix leaks, new ones develop on old system. So I understand your contractor telling you they won’t service equipment with old refrigerant. However, them telling you that it’s unavailable or illegal to use is unacceptable.
Unfortunate. As a tech of 40 years I see the tail (or rear end) of the dog wagging the dog. We are putting a flammable refrigerant into a residence! This is insane. GWP is junk science in my personal opinion. And furthermore how often must I as a tech retool to do my work due to the whims of 2 states and so international regulating body out of touch with hard core reality? And to comment on a video you did some time back bemoaning the new new freon and pleading for the industry to reject it now you seem to cuddling up to it and embracing it. We loose when regulators and people who have big money and wield big power win. I am sorry to see from your previous videos to this one you appear to be making a full turn about to embrace an A2L refrigerant that should NEVER be inside a residence in a closet with ignition sources such as a furnace or such. Good folks like you enable the bad guys by NOT RESISTING THIS KIND OF MADNESS!!!
Many homes have gas boilers / furnaces/ stoves. Few are upset about the safety hazard. These systems are purposely exposed to air. Without air nothing can burn, so having a flammable substance in a sealed system is safer than cooking with gas. Propane has been used for years as a refrigerant, (R-290).
Danny, all systems leak. I’ve heard there will be a lot of sensors and safeties involved but that’s just more stuff to break. I can’t tell you how many sensors I replace on brand new high efficiency systems. I guess I shouldn’t complain because this will definitely bring more business since handyman in a van won’t be equipped to work on these but I don’t think that outweighs the amount of irate customers I’m going to have to deal with.
@@eoinmcmahon7007 Very few have large leaks. losing a pound of refrigerant in a year is not going to b e much of a hazard if there is any kind of ventilation at all.
I just learned that natural gas isn't flammable! Whou'da thunk it? That explains why NG is allowed in furnaces next to an open pilot flame inside a closet or attic. Bc NG cannot catch 🔥 fire. Got it.
You didn't pay attention to EPA-608 and understand the gravity of Montreal Protocol, you can be challenged at any time by an EPA on your practices and why you recover in first place.
So can you tell me why then the HVAC companies along with their distributorships tell the general public that the price of our 22 and 410 A are very expensive per pound I think it’s just a way to price gouge the customer and I think it’s time that people know it.
From my point of view as a business owner, the cost of running a business in California is pretty expensive. We charge what we need to to make a small profit after we've paid for everything else. Usually the bigger the company the more you're going to pay. But right now R410a is a quarter of the price of R22. The cost of R22 is so expensive based on supply and demand and that virgin R22 can't be produced anymore. Using recycled R22 moving forward is what is making the cost of it exponentially higher as well. Hoping that helps explain.
If the customer cant afford freon what do u do.
It was surprising the USA went with 410A with its high GWP when the rest of the world went to R32( IIRC ). We were afraid of the flammability and came up with the 410a mix that adds a gas to reduce flammability.
Yeah, it would be better to have a fire and potentially kill people, rather than worrying about so called climate change/global warming [sarcasm]. The earth has been cooling and warming long before the industrial revolution, or even before man set foot on the earth. We know this from scientists as well.
Isn't it strange..once upon a time the freon manufactures..said it's harmless..and safe to use..
So now its only mildly flammable.
Lol
😂😂😂😂
So we went from head pressure of max off around 350 400 on r22 to 400 to 800 on 410 but didn't change the condenser coil I have changed out a lot of condenser coils with leaks on 410a. The industry didn't change the coils to handle the increased.
You will see more and more stuff labeled “not available for use or sale in California”. Manufacturers are starting to not chase the moving market in the weird states. The profit to investment is far less. The rest of the world market has grown that California ultimatums/mandates aren’t worth going after. The result will be lack of availability and expensive product there.
What options does a home owner now have who's R22 system's compressor just failed? Are R-454b systems available now? Or would they have to buy a R410A system, and then use R-454b as a drop in after 2023? This flavor of the week thing is getting old Mr Dupont considering this universally certified home owner just bought 10 lbs of R22..
As far as I know, only R410a systems are available at the moment here in America so that's what we are all stuck with for now. As he said, flammable refrigerants like R454b and R32 are not approved for use in any systems designed for non flammable refrigerants like R410a. HFC refrigerants are not yet being completely phased out like CFCs and HCFCs were, they are in the process of being "phased down". That means less and less will be manufactured as the years go on, so prices are expected to increase over the years since supply will gradually be reduced while demand will stay high for quite some time since there will be so many 410a systems in service for at least several more decades.
@@averyalexander2303 so 25 years after my 410 system is installed this spring, I'll be right back to where I started with my broken R22 system, more or less..
@@MrRerod Probably.
@@MrRerod 25 years for an HVAC system? Maybe 30-40 years ago? We’ve gotten 15 years from our Rheem systems and know we’ve gotten lucky. Worried about 410 even 20 years from now is probably a moot point.
@@mjg1544 when do you think they will replace 410 with 32 considering I heard 410 is starting to be phased out this or next year..
Sounds like we need to stock our personal garages with plenty of 22 lmfao thx for the knowledge though Ohio hasn’t done that yet.
someones palms are getting greased for the changed. EPA as usual making peoples lives horrible
😂😂
Time for an update video on this!
I am glad I got out of HVAC because it is getting out of hand.
I didn't know you were out. Doing all electronics now?
Didn't realize you had gotten out of the business - my first boss in the A/C business did the same thing in 2018, he was sick of it.
He went back to construction - less headaches and a set schedule.
@@foxfamilyheatingandaircond4696 Yes end of 2019 makes it 32 years and when I got into the business I plan to get out when I was 50-55 of age and I am right on the mark. I opened an internet business back in 2012 and it has blown up. It just runs itself so I will have free time to do even more traveling. I just want to travel and meet all of the HVAC people I have met on-line and keep teaching YT and do speaking events. So we will be back in your town again. I will be bringing the HVAC Hangouts back next month.
@@scrambler350 After 32 years is all I want of the heat. I do not want to work most of my life and only have a few years to enjoy the $$$$$ I have made.
Yeah I used to watch your videos but haven't seen any in a long time. You worked out of Wilmington NC right? That's where I am now.
Even though R22 is still available, it is very expensive. I have two older Trane's still going, one is an 11 seer from 1999, and a 14 seer from 2007. My fear is if I have to refill one or both systems, R22 will cost an arm & leg.
If you have to refill you have a leak. Needs to be addressed before adding more r22
Awesome and thank you
Watching this in 2024 in anticipation
Somewhat comprehensive but curious what the EVA and GTP are vs the metric CVgt2 might be?
I was just getting used to R410A and they're already phasing it out pretty soon. Hopefully the new refrigerants will be worth it.
LOL, It's all about Mr. Green. Now it's "Global Warming", we must phase out 410a now. Somehow R454B will cause an issue and the cycle goes on and on. And, meanwhile all the HVAC equipment goes into the landfill. IT'S ALL ABOUT $$$$$$$$$$$
Yes it will be worth a whole lot more per pound or jug!
Dow Chemical is betting on it.
Thanks dude
Yeah we just tell people that they may want to consider changing from 22 because we aren't really getting much new so it's pricey as hell.
You can repair someone's system using R22 but how much are you going to charge them a pound and how much is a drum almost $2000?
What needs to change is paper thin coils to stop the leak problems . systems that are designed to fail needs to be stopped so the loss of refrigent is not a issue as much ! they have created this problem.
Here in the US we are complying with these epa guidelines. China, Russia, Mexico and many other countries are not. So what little impact we gain is nullified by there inaction.
At 3:28 "even though R-22 only has an ODP of 0.5 per metric ton". What does that work out to per pound for those of us in the USA?
Explain to me why Chlorine is still sold at retailers for cleaning and disinfecting, such as the corona virus. And Chlorine is used in hot tubs and pools. R22 was.a great refrigerant, and I have a system over 33 years old, never had to add any FREON. Also Because chlorine gas is heavier than air, it will sink to low-lying areas and increase the risk of exposure there.How does it get to the ozone which is 10-25 miles above the earth?
Thanks for the infos. what dose each number/ letter means? and why this names are serial? like BMW 1 2 3 4 5 ..series?
I'm not in the HVAC industry, but I follow what is going because I am a homeowner and I find HVAC interesting. Since the best predictor of future events are past events, the EPA and scientists will find a reason to phase out the "new new" refrigerant, whether it will be R454b or R32, for one reason or another.
But here we go again. No offense to you or your team, but here is California and Washington state telling the rest of the country what standards we need to follow. Give us all a break.
Why would they? The EPA makes so much more money when they switch refrigerants. R410a was cheap 2 years ago and now it’s where r22 was a year ago. And don’t even talk about r22, soon it will be a myth
You’re right it’s ridiculous
R22 has an ozone depletion potential of .05 not 0.5
In india we use R32 and R410a gas is being phased out
yeah. in many cases, your standard of living isnt ours either.
There is so much more chlorine evaporating from pools every day, even a small leak that needs a little freon every season doesn't equal the evaporating chlorine from a pool
Just go back to R12. Everyone knows humans cant change global warming but corporations see opportunity to grab money.
So, in 2023, if you have a R410A system with a leak, can you do a leak repair and top off the charge? Or do the leak repair, recover the entire charge and convert it over?
Absolutely yes. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
What if you recover the entire charge, do a leak repair, and just charge a 410a system with 410a? That’s what I would do being this new crap will cost about $500 per cylinder.
What he gets wrong is the cost of R22 and R410 when old systems need to be repaired.
Hey it have perfumes with the same properties as R12 out in d environment spraying everyday
I haven't found a place that'll add R22 to my system. One place said "IF" you can find it, it's $900 per pound... that's 3,000% the price u can buy online... lol
Great topic. Thank you. Good to know.
what happens if you just drop in 454b into a 410a compressor?
will it destroy the compressor?
will it react with the oil to either repel it and get it stuck in the radiator cores
will it cause an explosion due to flammability?
will it cause an explosion or blow out of the line due to high pressure?
Boom
So I have a carrier unit that is 16 years old that runs 410a, should I be looking to switch to a 454b unit when this one gives up soon? Thank you!
You should buy one in 2024. I’m getting two myself.
Does anything blow as cold as r22?
So? Which one cools my house the best. That the one we all want.
As of now we are pulling out the R22 and 507 from all the supermarkets. We are putting in 448 which is banned in 4 years. 😅
Show numbers on a chart on the screen so we can actually follow what you are reading.
This is dumb. I had a R22 system had to upgrade because it was phased out. Upgraded to r410a. Now when I need some refrigerant down the line will have to upgrade again.
I can’t believe it. You saw the future.
so what r people that just had a r 10a system installed to do ??
Anyone else remember Carrier Coil leaks before tin platings 😆