"Flammable" Refrigerant Facts for Residential HVAC
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- Опубликовано: 2 окт 2024
- In this training class, Bryan Orr from HVAC School provides key facts and information for HVAC technicians about the transition to mildly flammable A2L refrigerants like R-32 and R-454B being adopted for residential and light commercial systems. He covers the reasons behind the phase-down of higher global warming refrigerants like R-410A, the differences between A2L refrigerants and propane, similarities and differences compared to R-410A, changes to equipment and components, best practices for handling mildly flammable refrigerants safely, evacuation procedures, leak testing, and more. This is a must-watch for any residential HVAC tech getting ready to work on new A2L systems in the coming years. Bryan dispels misinformation and fear-mongering around these new refrigerants while still emphasizing the proper precautions that should be taken.
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Great info. Bryan. Thank you.
R-22 "significantly lower pressures" , yeah and equipment that lasted 20-30 years plus
100% correct
Been doing hvac 16+ years now. Still have a 23 year old r22 system that runs perfect. I will run it until I no longer can!!!
@@cliffanderson7544 I just serviced one from 1975. Someone cut the blower cap out and it has been running without a cap for I don’t know how long. The condensing unit is from 1995. Still chugging along.
The house I grew up
In had an American standard that went 35 years till it blew a condenser. The Heil replacement only made it 7 years.
Service three 1995 Lennox 5 ton condensers at a shop and all have the original compressors. They don’t make em like they used to..
A friend of mine is a chemical engineer that lived through 40 years of these changes. He said it is NOT for the environment and never was. Twisted data on the effects of these chemicals was done deliberately. He said these changes keep the industry selling new equipment and the chemical companies like the one he was in management for, making new product.... He was very high up in a company you all would recognize. Our government is not what you think it is.
BINGO. Back when the Ozone problem was invented, R12 cost $1/lb in retail consumer sales. The stuff was used, as an example, for BB "machine guns" and to chill glassware for mixed drinks and so advertised on TV. Why so cheap? Off patent. Funny thing, the replacements were only manufactured when the maker paid a license fee.
Nope.
@@footiefan51 In the the 30 years I've been running my R22 unit, a typical newer system would've been replaced 3 or 4 times. How could the manufacture and disposal of all those POSSIBLY be better for the environment? "Efficiency?" If the new stuff is so much more efficient, how come 15,000BTU is still the max for a 15A circuit? You could get a 15K BTU window A/C that drew 13A in 1985. You'd think we'd at least be up to 18K BTU by now??
Damn , I'd like to hear what your friend has to say. That's wild to hear as a young HVAC technician. Thanks for sharing.
Ozone problem wasn't invented. A kind reminder that the CFC's were patented things that drove up the cost compared to the older non-patented refrigerants of the 30's like sulphur dioxide or.. r290. They banned those in favor of CFC's because they were safer - according to DuPont's lawyers. Anything they can patent and do. 1234yf is the new patented expensive stuff. R290 or R600a at least isn't patented and I think R32 is also out of patent. @@GilmerJohn
changing refrigerant has nothing to do with the environment and all about money
How can you be Sure that..❓❓
It's all about the price. Nothing to do with what it actually affects. Glad you brought up propane.
Burned out terminal on the compressor that loses its complete charge with a shower of sparks … Boom
Go Chevron Deference ! This is crazy that we keep changing rules when patents run out
Good to see someone gets it. The excuses for doing this, are just that, excuses. Gwp, ozone depletion, what a massive scam.
@@drewtronics7406The Ozone cycles in and out and has nothing to do with R12.
Happens with pharmaceutical world as well
@@troydspain1099 💯!!!!
Chevron chevron is going to be overturned in our lifetimes. It's definitely on the chopping block. At least 3 justices are vehemently opposed to Chevron, and a couple more have significant concerns about its 'as applied" constitutionality.
The SCOTUS RULING striking down Chevron Deference may affect EPA powers going forward.
Let's hope so. Common sense should prevail to keep costs low for consumers, such as removing the leak repair requirements. None of these refrigerants are an issue with the environment, they are all about selling products covered by patents for maximum profit.
It's cancels them. EPA cannot write rulings that have legal effect.
@@hallkbrdz I'm guessing you consider Thomas Midgley Jr to be a hero?
Unfortunately I I think it would be too late to go back . All of the manufacturers all of the supply houses everyone is basically converted over to manufacturing and selling these new refrigerants. Except for the contractors who actually have to deal with this crap . All these extra sensors and Manufacturing lines and all this extra crap that we need is going to raise the cost of a residential system 30% at least. These big shops are going to start charging $50,000 for these freaking systems
@@jakbo_ Time to produce our own open source designs. I'm tired of this rat race.
To Fully Protect the OZONE LAYERS in the atmospheric..... ALL Nations and All industries must Comply with the EPA....... NOT just AC manufacturers/ AC Techs 👍👏
Not to get political but if you don't like all these tyrannical mandates, vote very carefully in November.
Genuinely curious if there's something I missed (hoping there's specifics behind this comment) what rules were rolled back under DTs EPA that helped small HVAC businesses? As far as I know, it was just stuff that helped massive corporations. Full disclosure, I'm a 12 year resi/comm/light ind electrician that genuinely hates all politicians equally. Talk me out of voting for RFK, go 😂
Asking the general population to vote for people that know even less about HVAC/R stuff than the general population may lead to disappointing results.
Sucks when your industry doesn't get the same government subsidies as the green energy industry, which so happens to flip out over certain refrigerants.
He endorses DJT. Vote DJT. @zwhitehead403
Highly surprised the insurance companies are not changing the requirement for the piping on the new refrigerant with the widespread installations.
You are truly a blessing to this industry
Government redistribution of wealth
Did after market automotive A/C yrs back and moved on to other things, so I did have my certificate for refrigerant handling etc,.. in the early 90's when 134a was fairly new to replace r12,there was a gas from a Chinese chemist called GU 2015. it was MORE efficient than 12 and was non cfc gas. Magic stuff. But 134 seemed to be the biggest thing on the market and Dow AND Dupont were cornering that market. We did buy some 2015 and used it for retrofits and customers were really happy with it. It was a straight replacement for 12. I heard of some shops replacing 12 with propane and I thought how crazy is that ?? Flammable refrigerant?? I bought a small window ac unit for my apt, and IT has flammable refrigerant. Crazy
The basic problem you speak of is that bureaucrats think in terms of Labels. it is either "flammable" or it is not. Nevermind that the woirld doesn't work that way.
I think the people who make these rules don;t know how air cojhditioners work." Thast is Precisely Correct.
In 1979 at the tender age of 19 I went to Frigerator College. Ended up being a welding and rigging contractor for 30 yrs, but I can tell you all my ACs work perfectly and all of my vehicles are as cool as the other side of the pillow including my 64 Econoline (dual evaps) and my 32 coupe. AC has been good to me.
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Explosive vs flammability are not one in the same.
E O.D. 😂
Lol there will be less Juan and Jose working on the side coz will probably explode
Well hopefully the chevron case will significantly affect the EPA being able to make declarations about what can and can't be used
I am not against doing the job right by the book but when u have to buy all your tools and not getting paid good this job ends up being not worth the sweat
My 27 yr old A/C hasn't leaked. That is good for the environment. I looked into getting a heat pump. For me, there are no government grants at this time. I was quoted $7500 for a 3 season heat pump. Likely more when the new and improved flammable refrigerant comes into use. $7500 buys a lot of clean natural gas. I think I'll keep what I have
FJB and his EPA!
They are returning the Southern US back to hard living. Low lifespan equipment and high electric costs are making AC unaffordable.
Bro, you lack critical thinking skills. I feel sorry for you
@@grashoprsmith Why don't you explain it to my simple mind?
@jamesbooth3360 the same issues existed regardless of who the president was or is.
@grashoprsmith Now, who lacks an objective view of reality? I feel sorry for you.
@jamesbooth3360 equipment didn't magically last longer 4 years ago under trumps epa. This stuff was in process under the orange narcissist's epa, too. Corporate greed is the reason stuff doesn't last as long. Couple that with smooth brains like yourself doing bad installs.
EPA says R22 is better than A410? So why not go back to R22? EPA is a joke
Patents ran out again Really
Just to replace AC in the future in a customers house with your brand. You may have to carry 3 different gauges. 3 different recovery bottles. 3 different vacuum pumps. 3 different recovery machines. That at least $6000.00 per truck just for AC just to work on any equipment.
Industrial generator tech here/ I have to say I enjoy your teaching style. I do not work in this field but your teaching style makes me want to listen. Be
You really know your stuff Bryan. We appreciate you explaining the significance of the new refrigerants that will become the industry standard.
I am a licensed General Contractor in my state, and I find it stunning how you downplay the complexity of this unnecessary refrigerant change. What you fail to understand is that this will add a huge amount of confusion to the entire HVAC industry, and this confusion will generate significant cost increases to HVAC manufacturers, HVAC contractors and the consumer.
I have two engineering degrees, and a civil engineering degree from one of the highest rated universities in the nation. I have taken the time to learn the vocabulary necessary to read and understand climate studies. After reading several of the key climate studies that purport to "prove anthropogenic driven climate change," I have been stunned at the overwhelming amounts of junk science these pro-global-warming "peer reviewed "studies contain.
The issue is not if the climate is changing because we can easily prove that the climate has been warming for more than 5000 years after the end of the last ice age. The key question is, is if global warming is caused by man-made emissions of greenhouse gases? To address this question we must first be able to accurately quantify how much greenhouse gas emissions are naturally generated by thousands of sources on earth. We currently are incapable of accurately measuring the aggregate amount of non-man-made global warming gases naturally generated. Without an accurate measurement of this variable, we simply cannot prove that anthropogenic emissions are sufficient in quantity to affect global temperatures to the point we can measure a difference.
So, based on hard science metrics, we cannot even prove that man-made greenhouse gas emissions are warming the climate at all. This is especially true because anthropogenic emissions of global warming gases are approximately less than 1% of the total generated naturally by the earth.
The point is, we don't have any real scientific proof that these coolant changes will do anything to stop the alleged aggregate warming of the earth. Most scientists agree the earth is warming slightly. But they really don't know how much. And climate scientists cannot prove anthropogenic emissions are fueling global warming.
This is important because it is almost certain that these coolant changes will not affect the changes occurring in in climate in any way. They are feel-good delusional requirements put together by Democrat climate change cultists, and there is no hard, verifiable scientific proof to back the Biden Administration's hysteria.
So the reality is, all of this added complexity and cost is about as productive as a dog chasing its own tail. It accomplishes nothing to help the planet. But even worse, these increases in HVAC costs hurt the poorest of the poor and the middle class. These red-tape regulatory mandates are a useless waste of scarce resources.
So I would suggest that you not act like these are not major changes, because they are. Costs are going to increase by 30% or more, and that DOES hurt every American family!
They could add a pump down solenoid on the condenser liquid line. Leak sensor sends signal to air handler board, board sends 24v signal with extra wire to condenser. Solenoid closes and pumps down condenser. Compressor shuts off on low pressure switch. Only added 1 extra part and ran extra wire to condenser which usually there is spare wires already ran with the thermostat wire
This will also prevent the whole loss of the refrigerant in the house. Refrigerant will be trapped between the compressor reed valves and the liquid line. Will only loose what is in the evaporator and suction line
"Pull the cores, draw the vacuum", you have now tested the system MINUS the cores. What part is the most likely to leak? THE CORES!
Tec bell. I agree R-22 was fine but they feel they need to change things that don’t need fixing.it’s like the old saying if it’s not broken don’t fix it!!!!
Im in SC and work on appliances and have R600 in my hot van and never had it explode. I just cut both ends on either side on refrigerators when working on the sealed system (filter drier and low side process stub). Only thing that happened so far is at the compressor after cutting open the system I'll get a flame out. Just like a lighter flame.
Good ole montreal protocol. Leave it to governments to fuck everything up
Propane with something like 10% iso butane was supposed to be a pretty much drop in for R12. However there used to be significant fines for doing it
55:00 You will eventually will have to have some type of mitigating active system in storage areas with sensor and a means to ventilate.
Lets go back to r22
Pressurize leak detect record every single thing videotape documents in case something go wrong and you have to sit in front of two insurance company and no one are paying the client and using you as a bargaining chip. I've been a mechanic for most of my life. I've been an engineer for most of my life. I do a lot of customer. Oversizing condensing unit to compensate for on demand service. Now I have to be very careful. Extremely careful
Very informational, Thanks!
Here is some scientific information that should be taught: A2L laboratory testing was not within the stoichiometric combustion range of the A2L Gas. This gas is combustable in concentrations of less than 13% at room temperature and normal atmospheric pressures. See the MSDS:
"Flammable gases, Category 1
Gases, which at 20°C (68°F) and a standard pressure of 101.3 kPa (14.7 psi):
(a) are ignitable when in a mixture of 13% or less by volume in air; or (b) have a flammable range with air of at least 12 percentage points regardless of the lower flammable limit.
I use R290 in my 20 year old R22 system. It's not as efficient but it's close enough to not matter.
As an example….
Flour in dust form is an explosive….
The distinction inthe difference may be Combustible Vs Flammable
Diesel is Combustible. Gasoline is Flammable.
10:43 fun fact because you're rightfully sweating about telling people about the compatibility of r290 with r-22 systems:
Automotive engineers long assumed that flammable refrigerants would unacceptably raise the risk of fire in a crash when compared to r-134a. At some point in the past several years (I don't remember exactly when), someone conducted a test of the safety of an r134a system in a crash and found that the lubricant would start a fire on its own when it got sprayed onto the hot exhaust manifold in a crash.
I hope nobody is dumb enough to read my comment and think it's safe to put 15lbs of propane in their residential system - it won't matter how much or how little lubricant is in that system
R12 stuff lasted well too
R-12, R-22 were developed to replace the dangerous LPG refrigerants. Follow the money.
Why don't we just hook these new systems up flexible gas line with pipe thread and shut off valves just like we run gas lines now no brazing needed
Ty for tge content! Our country is in a sad state if Brian has to say "not getting political " while stating facts
A2L systems are currently prohibited on Massachusetts
The two teachers taught well as usual.The class was interesting to learn from.The best class to teach with no mental health distractions with skybox proofreading.#GreatJob!
I'm v. To
Well soon a good service guy is going to have to have freaking 7 jugs refrigerant in their truck so we may be hitting that weight limit soon
My dryers are flare dryers and the reason why it is is it's much easier to uncrack a nut. If you worry about the leaks on the flare, put loctite Why they don't do the same on the compressor except the discharge line
Can we sue epa for all the different refrigerants we breathed in. I got r12 22 410a 134 407c in my lungs every time I disconnect my gauges. My lungs are running on mixed refrigerants. Thanks Epa
😂 does that affect your freeze point?
My saturate lung temp is 45 degrees
What are you breathing when you are soldering and the refrigerant is In the atmosphere and flame burns the refrigerant and creates a gas that is very bad for you to inhale
A really strong magnet will prove there's a steel striker plate when covered with sheet rock.
Why does the vacuum pump have to be A2L certified if the system is empty? Just a crazy question for thought.
Hi this is Mike Simmonds. I. Worked with you at delair I like your casts . I'm 65 now and
Still learning. You are never to old.
I'm in IT - watched the whole thing. You're a great presenter.
Anyone that's not afraid of propane, to a reasonable extent, doesn't respect that it can absolutely do major harm. Not respecting that fact can lead to carelessness and a higher probability of a catastrophic event. I'm not saying no one should work with it but we should all give it the respect that it demands because it can 100% result in death and property damage.
Everyone should have a certain amount of fear to preserve the respect it requires.
The instructor says that r-454 b is a , " mildly " flammable refrigerant, although the msds says that r-454 b is an extremely flammable refrigerant and that the gas can be explosive when it's concentrated in an enclosed space.
Mildly flammble is the actual ASHRAE designation
Is there going to be a rule about sitting the condenser 10feet away from the home?
Lol no
Body Armor and helmets will be required
Packaged system (no line set), 12 feet away from combustibles, solar powered, can only be installed and serviced by those who are EPA608+A3++A2L certified who are also members of the local union authorized to perform such work, used to chill water (special water subject to a special tax), that can then be piped into an air handler (also only solar powered), which provides you to be compliant with upcoming 2026 cooling regulations …
32:03 We used nail plates on wooden studs where NM cable is run in the wall closer than 2 3/4” to the wallboard (I think that’s even in chapter 70 of the NFPA code). We affectionately called them kickplates. But that was years ago, now.
Should Ban all gases from EPA buildings.
Farts are a gas, de min·i·mis should be the norm.
I have always cut out components especially driers because when you heat up a drier it will release any moisture in the drier
This is the most idiotic refrigerant they have come up with. Who going to be the first to die from this crap.
Has anybody noticed a lot of 5 to 10 year old evap coils that are leaking. Especially the aluminum coils. Are they going to start building the equipment better?
higher pressure refrigerant (r410/R32) reducing equipment life and then race to the bottom on price means manufacturers compromising on copper quality.
No, manufacturers are not building equipment better. New coils are micro channel.
@@smacleod69It's for higher efficiency, they need more cleaning at least.. but they did microchannel back then too.
@@mikafoxx2717 Thats the biggest crock in HVAC history. They are not making micro channel for efficiency. Micro channels use less metal to make For the so called carbon foot print crap.
Does R22 or 410A produce phosgene gas if exposed to a torch, during a compressor "unsweating" for example? Keep getting mixed opinions out there. Thank you for such informative videos, keep up the great work!
That's what I was told it's just like mustard gas used in the military
This looked like perfectly done presentaion. It would be facinating to see some of the notes that the people who were there took.
The part about not unsweating anything and to cut it out because of residual refrigerant in the lineset. Does this apply for example if I am changing a filter dryer, compressor or evap coil and I have the system recovered and shraders pulled and have nitrogen flowing? I would thing the nitrogen would have pushed any residual refrigerant out including displaced the oxygen to keep anything from igniting.
10:46 cuba did this at a national level during the r22 phasedown. They had some issues when instructions weren't followed. R290 is starting to make a comeback in some appliances.
I always learn a little more each new video, THANK YOU !!
I have been doing this crap for 40 years, it's always nice to keep up
What is wrong with these law makers. Why do we always move backwards when stupid people become engineers.
Greetings: I miss the days of Servel and sightglass days. Fortunately, some R still around. Thx 4 the share. Bsafe
Can’t wait for this transition to complete so I can finally upgrade my r-22 seer 10 unit from circa 2000. Skipped 410a entirely 😅
Sounds like a guaranteed and great investment just stocking up on 410 right now. Might sell off some stocks and buy a warehouse of 410 tanks.
You forgot to mention no smoking while working on a system
That just makes it easier to find the leaks. @@darylfortney8081
Why wait? Propane is available now, and is an upgrade in efficiency and performance to boot!
@@joez.2794 because they haven’t even really begun to release all their new models yet.
theres another Channel call Mickey Pipes his making a big deal about this jaja im glad i came here to double check
Mikey pipes is your typical trades man that actually knows what he's doing but doesn't have his head screwed on straight. He's like your drunk uncle that busts his ars day in and day out..
I'd love to work for your company the training you provide to your employees is awesome most companies could care less.
10 years ago r410a
35:44 Caddie Shack!🤣
Good job Brian. The regulations is almoust the same in Europe to. Love your videos. Learn a lot from . Ciao
gwp, odp 🤡
Or GDP, Gross Domestic Product…ahh business as usual.
You made a comment in the video about leak repair requirements coming in Oct 2024 on systems with 15-50 lbs of refrigerant in them, do you have a link to more info on this subject ?
“What do the kids say today”. Got me 26:47
As as mechanic do all my fellow mechanic videotape your job on everything that you are doing on the job. Keep it on a file in case your client take you to court videotape think like you are wearing a body camera doing your job. This is my suggestion or my job is video taped put on files for my protection
I love hvac techs acting like a flammable refrigerant is the biggest fire hazard when they have inch + diameter gas lines that just push in an unlimited amount of a flammable gas..
You're not supposed to talk about that. It ruins their narratives bad.
We used to put propane in R-12 cars back in the day.
Hall Brenda Rodriguez Ruth Martinez Joseph
How efficient is a commercial duct application or duct design on a residential home in Florida...
what about R-1234YF used in vehicles can you tell me about that? and why its so expensive
What happens if mitigation sensor fails or blower fails will the concentrated leak in the evaporator coil become dangerous. Is there an audible alarm in this situation.
How flammable is the oil in the system ,considerably more flammable than the refrigerant?😊
Nail plate
Lopez Christopher Hernandez David Wilson William
We consistantly find worse and worse stuff to replace the previous product that was bad.
Liquid nitrous can be a good refrigerant it is the plummability management and like anything else
You're not supposed to sweat the filter drier off but it's okay to braze it back on?
Yes, you are flowing nitro at that point
You could flow nitro while you unsweat but pulling apart under flow is still not a great idea
You release any moisture in the drier when you heat it up and technicians start trying to remove it before it's hot enough and it's not good for the tubing
Anything man-made it’s not good for the environment so stop with the EPA
Davis Charles Martinez Deborah Jones Paul
Martinez Gary Jackson Amy Brown Timothy
Lopez Elizabeth Harris David Lopez Christopher
Well boys, why don't we go back to R-22 if it has a lower GWP. LOL
You say the refrigerant's are ~MILDLY` flammable?!?!?! What about when a compressor has an electrical burnout happen??? Isn't the literal spark/burning of the motor windings enough to ignite the refrigerant,, even if the flame expansion rate is much slower than with propane,,, and the resulting explosive/expansion enough to explode in a deadly way????????
I have 44 plus years in HVACR work. (I've owned 2 service companies one on Long Island, and Wilmington, N.C.)
Oh yes, the ozone scam 😂 and global warming scam, Ugg
Because of the anti-R12 histeria, most consumer aerosol cans use flammable propellants. Even/especially food products often use flammable propellants. Inhalers are much more expensive and dangerous. But that's OK.
I just can't get over the fact we could've skipped R410A altogether, and even by THEIR measure the environment would've been better off. It makes more sense to just go back to R-22 at this point, and we know it.
@@joez.2794yup that’s what we have been saying for many years