I left my husband when he was bishop. I Learned that he loved the institution more than his family. I felt like I was living to die. Everything I did and every struggle I had was for the afterlife. Life is too short to be unhappy. For 13 years I showed up with my daughters and served. He never sat with us during sacrament once. Broke me when I started getting chastised from the pulpit . Thank you for this
Former Mormon here... When Camille mentioned that she could just no longer wake up and go to church, she started making pancakes with her kids, enjoying them and learning about them, that resonated with me so much. I am 20 years post Mormon, my grown kids are so well adjusted and productive. All have such wonderful grace & forgiveness for others in their lives as well as for themselves. I'm grateful I left the LDS church.
I am constantly amazed at these stories. I keep thinking, "This will get old one day," but the stories continue to fascinate me! I got out when I was 18 or 19--I am now 60. I am so glad I got out when I did. My heart always aches for people who have invested so much of their lives in the church. I hope they find baskets full of happiness and something tells me they will.
@@bmo5082Yes, he is. He can’t even hear me out yet and it’s been over two years of deconstruction for me. I’ve had to rely on friends and podcasts to get me through it. It’s incredibly painful and hard on our marriage.
Breaks my heart how you give so much to the church and when you leave they just ghost you. It was very depressing at first now, I love being invisible. Thank you for this amazing podcast!
Once again, John Dehlin you are such an insightful interviewer, but Margee as ever your words really show what a good listener you are. You are so valued.
I can relate so much to Camille saying she enjoys the stories. I’m a never Mo, but love listening to Mormon Stories Podcast. I enjoy learning more about people’s experiences.
I see a parallel between this couple and myself. However, I'm a never mormon, yet my nervous breakdown sparked me to take a look at my life. I got rid of every person or thing that caused me stress and added things that fed my soul. My whole life changed into a unique, fullfilled, humble, grateful human bean.
This is one of the most touching stories that I've heard in a long time. My heart goes out to Camille and Jared. I'm so glad they are finding the best for their family.
As someone who has been a bishop and a stake presidency member I can relate so much to what Jared is sharing. The disciplinary councils, the way sexual abuse was handled, the burnout/breakdown experienced and the deconstruction needed. And when you choose not to continue in your membership because of what you have learnt and the moral dilemma that creates, its not easy after being a public figure and leader in your stake and community to then have a truth crisis and everyone knows president no longer attends. It requires a journey of being honest with self and learning to belong to yourself and honour your own values, so you can be resilient to the loss and reality experienced as you transition and find a new norm. It can be brutal, confronting and enlightneing all in one. I wish Jared and Camille well in their journey ahead- there is much beauty in the world!
Thank you for your courage and honesty in sharing your lived experience as a high level leader in the LDS Church, called to act for God in loving and shepherding every member of your large flocks! I’m so glad that you, Jared and others (including wives!) are sharing your stories so everyone can understand these are unreasonable sacrifices you’re asked to make as human beings, with your own family challenges, even though your hearts are sincere, faithful and dedicated! I hope others who are closest to you can let go of fear to hear you with unlimited love and trust that you have not changed. Your eyes have just been opened to a path of greater peace and happiness, as my husband’s and mine were after 44+ years of being all in and giving our lives to the Church! The gospel is pure and SIMPLE - love thy neighbor as thyself. Love casts out fear. Do what you can with what you have in the time you have in the place you are. And it will okay.
Watching from Kansas USA. I deconstructed out of Evangelical Christianity a decade ago, but it gives me great joy to hear of others moving on from other conservative religions. All the best to you!
The key criteria isn’t so much whether a group is conservative or liberal but is whether theirs is a high-demand religious group. If you do an internet search of the term high demand religion you’ll probably find good info on this. Also check out Mormon stories episodes 1443 - 1447 and /or Steve Hassan’s BITE model -both very illuminating. Good luck!
@@JIKOKALOLGranted, I'm personally looking for someone to demonstrate the difference between actually speaking with any god or deity, and convincing yourself that you are, in a way that's testable, measureable, observable, and repeatable.
I am just overwhelmed at the love Jared has for his wife. Allowing her to find her way and not treat it as a negative is so beautiful. What an amazing man. I loved their story
I have been deconstructing for a few years, very slowly. My husband has been very reluctant to listen to the "anti-mormon" propaganda that he thinks Mormon Stories is. He watched this whole episode and continued to be validated over and over. I am so grateful for both Jared and Camille and John and Margie. I think this ol' dog just might have a new podcast.❤
Margee asked about whether they felt pressure to be obedient because they saw the stress that their siblings caused on the family system by being rebellious really hit home for me as a never Mormon. Great episode, as usual 💛
Same. My father was a United Methodist Minister. As the youngest of three children, I undertook the impossible task of being a perfect child. I wanted to somehow make up for every time my older siblings rebelled, talked back, or disrespected our parents in any way. I lost any sense of myself along the way.
My heart has gone out to this couple for what they have experienced. They are amazing people and will have a beautiful future together with their family. I am still going to church but have dug my heels in about certain issues and when the Bishop checks up on how I’m doing, I smile and tell him I’m ok - poor guy, he must be tearing his hair out because I will not be controlled! Jared and Camille may God Bless you and HE will.
The time spent in callings was a huge shelf item for me. If the the church was all about families why was I alone every Sunday and during the week while my husband was out serving in his calling, and then they wanted me to have big callings while he was serving too. I was like, “who’s gonna be home with my children?!! I felt so justified when you guys talked about it. I also noticed the same people were getting called over and over for the “big callings” I felt bad because I wanted them to have a break.
That’s what my ex Mormon sister in law says about my brother in law when he was a bishop, she was a stay at home mom who her husband was available to members but not to her. He was gone all the time and left her alone
These are two such amazing, wonderful people. As a never Mormon, I found myself thinking “ wow- that church really needs to take a serious look at itself if it’s losing people like this.” Their story will now be their service. Please thank them for the love they are bringing to the world.
Thank you John & Margi for having Jared & Camille on your show! This was definitely a great one and the reason we donate every month! We hope life continues to bless the 4 of you beyond measure! Much Love!♥️💖♥️💖
I relate to this so much. My husband is in the SP and I have watched his mental health decline. Watch him develope anger issues. As a PIMO wife I find this incredibly hard.
If I had been in your ward, and you had been released, I would have FoR SURE been devastated when you were released. I would have told you how much I appreciate(d) you for how you took care of the ward and how much you were a blessing to my family. My heart breaks for you that one one came up and acknowledged your service, but it doesn't surprise me.
@@nathanielwilkerson6217 that part didn't surprise me that much because I had a similar experience. I was never a bishop or super connected and getting to talk to apostles, but I was an all in member who was mostly in Elders presidencies, YM presidencies, etc. When I started getting into church history I started asking questions to the bishop and stake president and got dismissed and given the run around. I wrote a letter to Salt Lake and was further dismissed. After refusing to move on from my questions I was released from my calling as punishment and threatened with apostacy because I was directly questioning my local leaders as well as the Q15 at that point. I went less active and almost nobody even batted an eye or tried to contact me and ask what was going on with me. I was active in that ward for almost 10 years.........
The discomfort of so many demands from the church is what pushed this couple away. How unkind and unfair for so many to just ignore these faithful and hardworking members for so long. They are clearly joyful today. Good for them!
I was released from serving as a Bishop a couple of months ago after serving a very large ward for a little over 5 years. My heart goes out to Jared and Camille. I really do believe they are genuinely good people. I wish it would have been a better experience for them. I look back on those five years as the happiest five years of my life and my family's life. It was a wonderful five years for us. I think it's because I can't ever remember having so much love in my heart for others as I did then. To be honest, I didn't know that my heart was capable of feeling that much love. The calling definitely had it's hard days for my family, but for us the blessings made it worth it. When the time came to be released my wife and kids had a really hard time with it. They recognized it was a family calling and I really believe they felt the deep love in their hearts too. I never heard my wife or kids complain about it. They were so supportive. There is something about serving others (in any situation not just a church calling) that brings a richness into life. When Jared told the story about the sister who took her life..that was heartbreaking. I hope Jared knows that it's not his fault. From what I gather, Jared seems like a genuinely good man who was just trying his best to help people, I don't gather that the calling was an ego thing for him at all. I know being the Bishop's wife can be extremely hard. Especially when people look to her to have the ear of the bishop with complaints. I suppose being the wife of a bishop is as hard if not harder than being the bishop. Jared and Camille, if I could give both you a hug I would. If you ever just need someone to talk to, please reach out. to me.
But what about the garments? What about the guilt and shame? What about not being able to talk openly about the gospel topic essays? How do you deal with that with your ward. I truly want to know. Your compassion comes through. But how do you deal with the real issues? Former LDS who has come to know the biblical Jesus Christ here.
@@kristinenelson990 What about garments? I've always felt that love goes much further than guilt and shame. I don't know anywhere in the handbook or in the teachings of the gospel that encourages the use of guilt or shame as a tool. Especially as a tool for Bishops. IMHO, People are way too hard on themselves. They didn't need me compounding that. Especially when I bring my own faults and mistakes to the table. I've got no problem with the gospel topic essays, I was happy to discuss anything with anyone, I was always happy to discuss the CES letter and anything of a similar nature. I'm commenting on a Mormon Stories video. lol. Believe me, I'm quite familiar with what is out there. As far as real issues go..For over five years I dealt with real issues. Very hard issues. I learned that most, if not all are dealing with very hard things. Heartbreakingly hard things. I tried my best to handle those issues with love because that's what Jesus taught.
@@superkingofbros1340 I'm really glad to hear that. I left Mormonism in the mid-90s when it was very different. I think there has been a deliberate shift towards Christ in the past two decades which has been so much better for those who choose to follow Christ's teachings only. The issue is the only way to get to heaven is to go through the temple, and if one does not follow the ultimate teachings to get to the temple, they truly do not have the ultimate salvation. And therein lies the guilt and shame that's inherent in the system. I have full confidence in my salvation in Jesus of the Bible. There is no way to work oneself on a pathway to heaven. It comes through grace and mercy and his death on the cross. My prayer for the Mormon people is that they understand this difference, throw off the guilt and shame and the temple, & come to know Jesus.
I've never been Mormon but I have an LDS church across the street from my house. Last summer, there were about a half dozen times where the bishop of the local ward came out of church on Sunday afternoon while I was outside grilling. He came over and we had some great discussions that allowed him to unload his stress and frustrations on me. I think I was someone he could talk to without any judgement or repercussions. I felt so sorry for him and it was so obvious he never should have been selected as bishop. Of course, he felt pressured to accept the calling. He's still the bishop right now and I literally worry for his health and marriage.
I’m a catholic and Chilean, and a huge fan of Mormon stories, but it’s really deeply saddening to hear how many people (including baptized Catholics) have been tricked into Mormon baptisms. I met some missionaries a few months ago, and they conveniently go to the poorest areas of the city, where people don’t speak English and probably don’t understand what they are doing. Great episode!
I could relate to this couples story, thanks for sharing! I remember being dumbfounded when I went to lunch periodically with ladies from our Ward and had to listen to them criticize the decisions of my husband who was Bishop at the time. He was spending so much time away from us to serve the people of the Ward and it was heartbreaking to feel how unappreciated he was.
Yes, ditto to this experience - criticism without any appreciation for the family’s sacrifice and burdens placed on them. Multiplied as leadership levels increase beyond the ward level, with an increasing sense of isolation and judgement. Exhausting but mitigated by the allusion that sacrifice brings the blessings of heaven, until you realize it doesn’t.
You are an amazing couple and you are on the right path. My husband and I took the same journey over 45 years ago. I was the one who came apart and my husband stood by me in ways that still make me feel stunned anyone could love me so much. We had 56 years together. He was the love of my life and my very best friend. Forty years from now you will look back and be so grateful to your younger selves for having the courage to step out of the shelter of the greenhouse and into the beauty and adventure of the real world. Bon voyage!😊❤❤❤
I would love to see an episode that interviews a panel of nevermormons who have been watching these episodes for a long time. I know there’s lots of them listening and following and I want to hear what makes these experiences so compelling when they never lived through these experiences, at least in the same context. If this has been done before please point me in the right direction.
I'm an exjw. I watch because I lived a very similar experience in the Jehovah's Witnesses. It took me a few episodes to learn the theology and beliefs of mormonism but all the trauma it causes is the same. I watch Mormon stories just about everyday while I work. All of them are touching, inspiring, and triggering. I really feel like we are cousins in religious trauma. Thank you to everyone who has shared their story. ❤
I'm a never mormon. I have been listening to mormon stories for few years, and to be completely honest I started watching as I have a fascination with cults and deprogramming from cult tactics, so follow scientology ex members and other cults. so liked to listen to how these people have deprogramed from being lds. I do not know any mormon in real life I don't live in US. Its not common where I live. Being mormon sounds so exhausting
As a never Mormon Christian I am horrified by the fact that bishops are assigned so much responsibility. In Christian churches generally the leaders are pastors who have chosen the vocation and have gotten post-graduate degrees to equip them to the work. Then the churches choose their pastors from all over the country (world, really) to fit the “personality” of their congregations. Having someone plucked from the congregation (their peers) and assigned this difficult task seems fraught with structural problems.
Their excuse for doing this is so that person can grow within the calling. True to a point, but what about all the casualties left behind in the growing process.
I was thinking much the same watching this! Incredible to see how a family becomes overwhelmed with taking on these callings while working so hard to raise their own families. I quite honestly saw considerably less commitment from the priests of the church I attended growing up and it was their only job with no family to look after. It’s astounding to see the LDS church lean so hard into the “idle hands” philosophy to the point of burn out of highly committed members.
Years ago our Bishop came to me and told me my daughter couldn't go to girls camp because he thought she was a lesbian. Has she done anything wrong I asked him? He said he had heard from kids at school she was holding hands with another girl. I told him there would be a lawsuit if she wasn't allowed to go. Being a lesbian did not make her a predator.
So happy to be a new donor! You both do amazing work with the people. The stories you find and the way they are told have helped me as a non-Mormon living in Sandy emotionally cope with all these Mormons. I do feel completely invisible. I have never lived in such an isolating community. I am shunned as a pariah and it feels really bad. But the stories you tell are so valuable. Thank you and God bless you. Tonight I’m going to see Heretic with my daughter who is the opposite of me politically. ❤
To be vulnerable is actually empowering. Anyone who thinks otherwise, concerning a situation like this, is simply envious and threatened by the honesty of these two ppl 🙏
Latter Day Struggles podcast has been a great help to me, deconstructing my LDS beliefs and the devastating emotions that come with realizing the false truth claims and religious manipulation from the church.
OMG! This is just so beautiful and honest. After serving in many leadership positions in my Bountiful ward and raising my children and teaching school here, when I quit attending and then resigned after my husband's death, my dear friends didn't know how to handle it and never talked to me about it or seemed to care. Most of the ward just ignored that fact and did not engage with me or want to know what happened or why. They were not really unkind but I was an enigma that they chose not to deal with. It is a culture of disengaging with anyone or anything that causes them discomfort in their beliefs - not healthy at all, in my opinion.
Ex Mormon from Mexico. Thank you for sharing your life experience in the church. You are a great and beautiful couple, Hi to John and wife. great Job you are doing.
I’m a “never Mormon” but somehow tripped over the Mormon Stories podcast some time ago. I have so much love and respect for Jared and Camille - and their family - and the sharing of this story. Thank you for sharing! And Camille - nice work doing a hard pivot when your daughter shared her thought about a second piercing…I have no doubt that spoke volumes to her about her worth in your eyes, compared to the human-made (random and ridiculous) rules of the church. ❤️
This was very touching. What a beautiful and caring couple. It is heartbreaking and enraging to hear how much they really cared about people, the youth, how much they dedicated and it seems they were just used and exploited by the church. I’m happy they are living their lives according to their hearts now and not being dictated by others
Margie and John you are both amazing hosts! This was another wonderful episode, addressed sensitively. The Johnson’s seem to be wonderful people. Thanks for all you do❤
My sister is mentally ill and lived in SLC for several years before becoming homeless. I know that she had a bishop like Brother Johnson here who helped her when she needed it. I want you to know that what you did to help those in your ward made a big difference. Thank you! 🙏
I remember having a breaking point where I told my Bishop husband I needed him to be released. Took another 25 years to deconstruct because of my deep fears of listening to my inner voice that the truth claims weren’t adding up. I wish I had been strong enough when I was younger to be true to myself.
My family is not LDS but I was raised in a patriarchal system where religious education was used as a fear/control tactic. My father was a public servant turned educator turned church leader. He had his first mental breakdown around 40 like Jared and his second in his mid 60s which unfortunately claimed his life. I cannot express how proud I am of the Johnsons. Breaking the cycle is so hard but the fact that they are leaning on each other and learning from their family unit is so inspiring. Much love.
In 82 years I’ve never seen a “perfect family”. Humans are NOT perfect, we all have cracks in our veneers. I’m sorry that you put that pressure on yourself. People aren’t perfect creatures.
There must be something about these ex-bishops that left while being bishop and who were upset with issues and people's experiences as bishop. My dad loved the power and aspects like polygamy, time away from family, getting his ego stroked, women are weak like Eve, etc. I think it made him feel justified in how he treated us at home. So these ex-bishops on MSP make me feel hopeful but also sad because it would have been so cool to have a dad that woke up.
You guys are awesome!! My husband was in the bishopric and sitting on the stand every Sunday while I was sitting in the congregation struggling to control a toddler and deal with a newborn that had some pretty big physical issues. I was also dealing with crippling postpartum depression. No one in the ward ever offered to help. I finally said to my husband, I’m not going to get up every Sunday morning, spend time getting all dressed up, just so I can go and sit in church and not hear a word that’s being said. I asked him if he would be willing to talk to the bishop to see if he could sit with me after the sacrament so he could help with the kids. The bishop said absolutely not. He said the bishopric needs to be on the stand for the entire meeting. After much thought, my husband told him that his family was more important than his calling, and he asked to be released. After that, the bishop never acknowledged my existence ever again. He would come to talk to my husband in the hall, I would be standing right there and he would completely ignore me. Never even looked at me, as if I wasn’t there. He never offered me a calling after that (which was fine with me). He never offered my husband a calling ever again. That was years before my shelf broke. I spent 3 years deconstructing and working to get over the deep conditioning/brainwashing. My husband and I, and our kids, finally had our records removed last year. Best decision I ever made. I think it was one of the prophets that said… “No amount of success makes up for failure in the home.” So glad Jared and Camille chose what was best for themselves and their family!! They’ll no doubt help others through their story.
I could relate to the parentification of Camille in her family and with Marghi that the process makes you a different person than you would have been had you actually lived as a child. It's very painful and I appreciate Camille's sensitivity in diplomatically communicating the truth.
Loved this episode! Thank you for all you do John and Margi! Having the courage to leave the LDS church has brought so much more joy and happiness into my life- marriage is better, family is happier, and my relationship with God is stronger. I am grateful for Mormon stories, as it was so helpful during my faith transition. And now I just enjoy listening!
In reference to no one in Jared and Camille's ward saying anything to them after he was released..... I'm so sorry. That is heartbreaking. I had a similar experience with the way other members have acted. Just so so unkind and inconsiderate. It made me sit down and really think about who these people are. Jared and Camille's experience resonated with me so so much.
Can’t stop thinking about this interview. Their stake president really did them a disservice by releasing Jared as bishop without any kind of comment or speech from Jared or even the stake president. The stake president knew Jared hadn’t done anything wrong. What an utter disappointment after all this couple had given to the church. And then telling them they should probably move? Incredible. Wonderful interview of a wonderful couple!
Thank you so much for your words and experiences. You are truly good and imperfect people. I'm from the East zone from Santiago, Chile. Garner's niece was in my ward. The first missionary that I first met became a zone leader during those years as well. He is also inactive and is a great doctor today. ❤❤
I am very moved by this story. I was raised in a community dominated by a religion in which I was non-observant so I was more culturally connected than spiritually connected. As an adult, I made an effort to study the religion seriously. I ultimately made it the subject of my master's thesis. As a result, I now lean toward atheism. I have not gone full throttle atheism because I am holding out for the possibility of an afterlife to reunite with my parents and a sister who all died much too soon, and for whom I still mourn. Bottom line is that the Johnsons are caring, loving, decent and kind people; that's all that matters. As far as I'm concerned you're all going straight to heaven, if there is a heaven. I am genuinely sorry that such kind-hearted people were made to feel so unworthy when they are the most worthy. I wish you great joy and happiness Jared and Camille. You deserve it.
Margi, thank you for saying, "Now you are in alignment with your values" AND "You deserve good care and to receive good love; not just give it." I'm a never-Mo, but on a day when I am desperate to have anyone say that to me - I HEARD you. It brought tears to my eyes. Thank you. May God keep you and bless you always.
I’m nearing completion of this podcast. So many emotions and memories. I spent most of my adult life in ward and stake leadership that took me away from my family. I was so narrow focused on Mormonism that it consumed my life. Looking back since leaving in 2021, I have so many regrets. Thankfully all of my children have left the church and live their own authentic lives. Jared and Camille, thank you for being sincere, honest and vulnerable. I am seeing many people I have known over the years now leaving the church. I’m sure y’all are seeing the same. Somehow through intentional control and brainwashing , we’re trapped in living lives that don’t bring true joy or happiness. To take the planning salvation and call it the plan off happiness is imo disrespectful to Jesus Christ. I wish y’all the best and God bless your family . Much respect 🙏
Churches and Corporations will suck the life out of you and when they're done with you, they're done! Living in the moment and spending time with family is precious. Bless you!
Thank you Jared and Camille for sharing your profoundly powerful story. Your faces shone with radiant joy as you talked about the freedom to be authentically yourselves and that no longer being in the church that you are free to love the wider humanity outside the confines on Mormonism. This is one of my top three episodes! Sending love from Australia
What I love about this episode is that this couple are such a great representation - and with all the respect - of a “typical Utah Mormon family”. I feel like they are so much like so very many family’s who are the good Mormons, who people in the ward would NEVER expect to “lose their faith”. Nothing outrageous - doing all the right things, having a very typical Utah Mormon experience, and kind of like popular Mormon experience. I think their relationship looks a lot like so many faithful Mormons. And for a person in that situation to be able to, or allow themselves to have a “spiritual awakening /loss of faith” is scary as hell. To step away changes one’s entire world and it’s hard. Kudos to you both for your bravery. And of course, as always, Margi is just incredible.
Such an interesting episode thank you! totally could’ve been my path. Married by elder Nelson, (I still remember walking Into his office & that interview & thinking about the “all seeing eye” 😳 husband on the fast track- was the photo in the SFY pamphlet of the one bearing his testimony, EQP at age 21, etc. multiple missions, blessing said he would go on four or more so I had to figure out how to prepare to be his counterpart. but we veered off that trajectory. Interesting seeing how it plays out when you left later on. Thanks for sharing! I was so surprised learning how much of bishop’s job is finances & that soo many ppl Receive $$. Sometimes it feels like on single mothers that the church creates the problem by making them give up their careers etc & then when they are left destitute, they still have to come ask a man for help & he calls the shots, yet tells her to become self sufficient. Wait but you guys are the one that MADE her dependent in the first place?🤔We lived in a poor city ward overseas & the bishop was so overwhelmed he had my husband doing some of the finance work that only the bishop is suppose to do. I felt so uncomfortable & also was like wait I’m the finance major, I could do this yet they just hand you guys massive budgets & $$ w/zero training & you just wing it?? eye opening how clueless I was about church finances as a female.
That was outstanding! I was amazed that after and during deconstruction how much love I had for everyone. My status of knowing more and having more because of my religion went out the door and everyone was my equal or better.
I’m a believing Christian and watch these interviews for the in depth life story centered around religion and culture. I find this interview fascinating because they seem to have the full acceptance of their friend group and culture but criticism and traumatic counseling experiences seemed to cause them to loose that sense of self actualization. They both appear to have the same reaction to the difficulty. Two take aways. 1. Getting “everything” will cause you to have an unhappiness sooner if it wasn’t what you wanted for yourself. 2. Trials and temptations should be used to fortify yourself. I wish the best for this family. Thanks for doing this interview.
Thanks to all of you for this great episode! The Mormon Discussions type episodes are great as well, but these stories are why I fell in love with MS several years ago and this one is why I donated again (can only do occasional one-time donations) since these episodes are the most meaningful to me and are what I think MS is all about. Thanks again!
Much respect for both of you. I shed a tear or two. I left the church but didn't leave God. I found healing as a Christian and found support at a bible teaching church. God bless you both in your journey.
This is a power couple and people watching this story who are active members will resonate with this story and many people will leave the Church because of this video.
I feel so validated. Thank you for sharing your story. I had multiple breakdowns in EQ president and bishopric callings. I asked to be released from both. My mental health is so much better!
I have a great friend who was a mormon bishop for 5 years and resigned just after he was released. He told me he was a year into being a bishop when he lost all his faith and continued having the calling for another four years.
The bizarre thing is that the teaching is that anyone can talk to God. Does anyone really think that Jesus would stop someone--anyone--from praying, no matter their status? Isn't prayer the thing to be encouraged?
I do not understand why the church isn't training or paying bishops. This should be a full-time job, not a volunteer position in addition to a full-time job.
So in my observations as a never-Mo Christian, Mormonism is all about "good works" as the path to eternal life as a family. No forgiveness, no grace, just a looong (and ridiculous) list of man-made criteria that cannot be followed! I'm so glad you got out and what a lovely couple. Peace to you all ❤
I really enjoyed this interview, staying up late to finish it. Appreciate your honesty and candor. The way you were treated after being released was appalling. Yes, it is all about real love and spending time connecting with your own family.
It also feels so dangerous to have all of these major trauma events put on the bishop & nobody involved is a licensed therapist. Bishop can give well meaning but unhealthy advice (I definitely received life changing bad counsel tho well meaning ) & it also can be too much for bishop & wife to walk into. Feels unsafe for everyone. Heart goes out to all involved. So heartbreaking the mental breakdown but sounds like so much good came on other end hooray. sorry you were smeared instead of being thanked for your service. Thanks for sharing! I was my parents “blessing for service as bishop” born while they were bishop. Child #10 & they didn’t use birth control as the bishops handbook stated. So I guess you could have been blessed with a whole bunch more kids while you were bishop :) sounds like you are in a great place in your life & that’s a great reward❤️
@ Oh yes looking back I’m surprised how formative some of these type of people in classes & testimony meetings were that were very vocal & not necessarily giving good ideas to absorb. Worst was probably youth classes because they are all alone with adult teacher following a manual but I would say there was 10% independent ideas my parents wouldn’t want me learning. At least in the adult classes & testimony meeting, other adults can get up and say counter opinion, or I remember the bishop even making someone on political tirade sit down. Good point license doesn’t necessarily mean they are following best practices or a good knowledgeable therapist. I guess in the example you gave you have a choice to stand up & counter the individual & also don’t believe this lady is speaking directly with inspiration from God to you like you would in bishop private counsel? You could also find a different therapist or walk out of the group therapy like the women did. I believed my bishop’s counsel was direct revelation from God to me. & bishop here is wondering if he could have done something different for the woman who passed. That makes me feel sad for him walking into all these people in states of trauma & expected to affect their lives but also having to follow rules about finances etc from higher leadership. Bishops don’t choose this, they are called. Therapist do chose that & know what they are signing up for & maybe wouldn’t feel the same level of heaviness if they knew they had followed guidelines of what to do from licensing board? Bishop supposed to follow intuition and the pressure to make the right decision is on them. Can’t really pass the buck to their licensure training or best practice guidelines. Just feels like a lot put on a bishop & also for the member that is taking bishops counsel as revelation from God & hanging on their every word. I wasn’t necessarily meaning they should take therapists in the ward & make them bishop, I was more trying to communicate the fact that both the bishop and the member kind of have no agency in the situation because of their beliefs. Bishop believes it’s his job to know specifically & uniquely what to do to help this individual & the individual believe the same- this specific individual is called by God to have stewardship over their well-being, even when in trauma. I wish there had been more safeguards for some of the situations my father was put in as bishop. Or myself. People have many great experiences but also I think the system is set up for some unfortunate scenarios too.
@@phoenixrising5338 Bishops aren’t your therapists or lawyers or coaches or financial advisor (but kind of is here when they are told to make you a 3 month financial plan etc) & are in a position of power over you & I don’t personally believe they are judge in Israel either. A member isn’t a client in a therapy or legal office and they’re also not your life coach but sometimes it felt like that to me. I took to heart every word & thought that’s what God wanted for me & was even an order. Some advice was helpful & I appreciate it & other counsel was so disastrous I’m damaged by it still. But then I also feel bad for the bishops that are put in this scenario as well thinking they are called & following orders from higher leadership and sacrificing their own lives. I think the whole scenario can be disastrous & should be fixed. I would have liked it to be more like male & female mentors I could voluntarily seek advice from than someone with power over me effecting my every decision..
I love this couple- and can relate even though I have never been Mormon. I did leave a church I had served in for over 20 years and NO ONE cared. Not one person called to ask me why- or even check on me at all. Such a disappointment. And not what God would want for his church.
Great episode! How many of us want to share it with our family and friends that are still active members, but can't because we know it will end our relationships?
I left my husband when he was bishop. I Learned that he loved the institution more than his family. I felt like I was living to die. Everything I did and every struggle I had was for the afterlife. Life is too short to be unhappy. For 13 years I showed up with my daughters and served. He never sat with us during sacrament once. Broke me when I started getting chastised from the pulpit . Thank you for this
Former Mormon here... When Camille mentioned that she could just no longer wake up and go to church, she started making pancakes with her kids, enjoying them and learning about them, that resonated with me so much. I am 20 years post Mormon, my grown kids are so well adjusted and productive. All have such wonderful grace & forgiveness for others in their lives as well as for themselves. I'm grateful I left the LDS church.
I am constantly amazed at these stories. I keep thinking, "This will get old one day," but the stories continue to fascinate me! I got out when I was 18 or 19--I am now 60. I am so glad I got out when I did. My heart always aches for people who have invested so much of their lives in the church. I hope they find baskets full of happiness and something tells me they will.
I think Margi is my favourite co-host. She asks such good questions.
Former Bishop’s Wife here! I left the church while my husband was still serving as Bishop. This episode was wonderful.
I’m sure that was A LOT. You should be proud of yourself for the courage that would have taken!
@ it feels LIBERATING!!!!
Is your husband still in?
@@bmo5082Yes, he is. He can’t even hear me out yet and it’s been over two years of deconstruction for me. I’ve had to rely on friends and podcasts to get me through it. It’s incredibly painful and hard on our marriage.
@ Yes.
This couple was authentic all along. Their authenticity is what drove them out of the church. I’m so happy for them ❤️
Breaks my heart how you give so much to the church and when you leave they just ghost you. It was very depressing at first now, I love being invisible. Thank you for this amazing podcast!
Once again, John Dehlin you are such an insightful interviewer, but Margee as ever your words really show what a good listener you are. You are so valued.
Love Margee ❤
I can relate so much to Camille saying she enjoys the stories. I’m a never Mo, but love listening to Mormon Stories Podcast. I enjoy learning more about people’s experiences.
Same
I see a parallel between this couple and myself. However, I'm a never mormon, yet my nervous breakdown sparked me to take a look at my life. I got rid of every person or thing that caused me stress and added things that fed my soul. My whole life changed into a unique, fullfilled, humble, grateful human bean.
This is one of the most touching stories that I've heard in a long time. My heart goes out to Camille and Jared. I'm so glad they are finding the best for their family.
As someone who has been a bishop and a stake presidency member I can relate so much to what Jared is sharing. The disciplinary councils, the way sexual abuse was handled, the burnout/breakdown experienced and the deconstruction needed. And when you choose not to continue in your membership because of what you have learnt and the moral dilemma that creates, its not easy after being a public figure and leader in your stake and community to then have a truth crisis and everyone knows president no longer attends. It requires a journey of being honest with self and learning to belong to yourself and honour your own values, so you can be resilient to the loss and reality experienced as you transition and find a new norm. It can be brutal, confronting and enlightneing all in one. I wish Jared and Camille well in their journey ahead- there is much beauty in the world!
Thank you for your courage and honesty in sharing your lived experience as a high level leader in the LDS Church, called to act for God in loving and shepherding every member of your large flocks!
I’m so glad that you, Jared and others (including wives!) are sharing your stories so everyone can understand these are unreasonable sacrifices you’re asked to make as human beings, with your own family challenges, even though your hearts are sincere, faithful and dedicated!
I hope others who are closest to you can let go of fear to hear you with unlimited love and trust that you have not changed. Your eyes have just been opened to a path of greater peace and happiness, as my husband’s and mine were after 44+ years of being all in and giving our lives to the Church! The gospel is pure and SIMPLE - love thy neighbor as thyself.
Love casts out fear.
Do what you can with what you have in the time you have in the place you are. And it will okay.
Watching from Kansas USA. I deconstructed out of Evangelical Christianity a decade ago, but it gives me great joy to hear of others moving on from other conservative religions. All the best to you!
Are liberal religions o.k.? Or should liberal religions be deconstructed too?
All religion is man based. What you want is a direct, personal relationship with God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The key criteria isn’t so much whether a group is conservative or liberal but is whether theirs is a high-demand religious group. If you do an internet search of the term high demand religion you’ll probably find good info on this. Also check out Mormon stories episodes 1443 - 1447 and /or Steve Hassan’s BITE model -both very illuminating. Good luck!
@@JIKOKALOLGranted, I'm personally looking for someone to demonstrate the difference between actually speaking with any god or deity, and convincing yourself that you are, in a way that's testable, measureable, observable, and repeatable.
@@sacramentotodayWhat is a Liberal Religion?
I am just overwhelmed at the love Jared has for his wife. Allowing her to find her way and not treat it as a negative is so beautiful.
What an amazing man. I loved their story
I wish current bishops and their wives could listen to this story. It could free so many of them.
I have been deconstructing for a few years, very slowly. My husband has been very reluctant to listen to the "anti-mormon" propaganda that he thinks Mormon Stories is. He watched this whole episode and continued to be validated over and over. I am so grateful for both Jared and Camille and John and Margie. I think this ol' dog just might have a new podcast.❤
Margee asked about whether they felt pressure to be obedient because they saw the stress that their siblings caused on the family system by being rebellious really hit home for me as a never Mormon. Great episode, as usual 💛
Same. My father was a United Methodist Minister. As the youngest of three children, I undertook the impossible task of being a perfect child. I wanted to somehow make up for every time my older siblings rebelled, talked back, or disrespected our parents in any way. I lost any sense of myself along the way.
My heart has gone out to this couple for what they have experienced. They are amazing people and will have a beautiful future together with their family. I am still going to church but have dug my heels in about certain issues and when the Bishop checks up on how I’m doing, I smile and tell him I’m ok - poor guy, he must be tearing his hair out because I will not be controlled! Jared and Camille may God Bless you and HE will.
Why Would you go to church when it's an absolute fabricated lie
The time spent in callings was a huge shelf item for me. If the the church was all about families why was I alone every Sunday and during the week while my husband was out serving in his calling, and then they wanted me to have big callings while he was serving too. I was like, “who’s gonna be home with my children?!! I felt so justified when you guys talked about it. I also noticed the same people were getting called over and over for the “big callings” I felt bad because I wanted them to have a break.
That’s what my ex Mormon sister in law says about my brother in law when he was a bishop, she was a stay at home mom who her husband was available to members but not to her. He was gone all the time and left her alone
These are two such amazing, wonderful people. As a never Mormon, I found myself thinking “ wow- that church really needs to take a serious look at itself if it’s losing people like this.” Their story will now be their service. Please thank them for the love they are bringing to the world.
I forgot how the stress of the church fell off my shoulder when I left. Plus you don’t really have to care because they don’t care!
That is a good point, "You don't really have to care because they don't care." Well put, Thank you!!
So true 😂
Thank you John & Margi for having Jared & Camille on your show! This was definitely a great one and the reason we donate every month!
We hope life continues to bless the 4 of you beyond measure!
Much Love!♥️💖♥️💖
I relate to this so much. My husband is in the SP and I have watched his mental health decline. Watch him develope anger issues. As a PIMO wife I find this incredibly hard.
If I had been in your ward, and you had been released, I would have FoR SURE been devastated when you were released. I would have told you how much I appreciate(d) you for how you took care of the ward and how much you were a blessing to my family.
My heart breaks for you that one one came up and acknowledged your service, but it doesn't surprise me.
When I heard that part of the story I'm just really sad.
@@nathanielwilkerson6217 that part didn't surprise me that much because I had a similar experience. I was never a bishop or super connected and getting to talk to apostles, but I was an all in member who was mostly in Elders presidencies, YM presidencies, etc. When I started getting into church history I started asking questions to the bishop and stake president and got dismissed and given the run around. I wrote a letter to Salt Lake and was further dismissed. After refusing to move on from my questions I was released from my calling as punishment and threatened with apostacy because I was directly questioning my local leaders as well as the Q15 at that point.
I went less active and almost nobody even batted an eye or tried to contact me and ask what was going on with me. I was active in that ward for almost 10 years.........
The discomfort of so many demands from the church is what pushed this couple away. How unkind and unfair for so many to just ignore these faithful and hardworking members for so long. They are clearly joyful today. Good for them!
I was released from serving as a Bishop a couple of months ago after serving a very large ward for a little over 5 years. My heart goes out to Jared and Camille. I really do believe they are genuinely good people. I wish it would have been a better experience for them. I look back on those five years as the happiest five years of my life and my family's life. It was a wonderful five years for us. I think it's because I can't ever remember having so much love in my heart for others as I did then. To be honest, I didn't know that my heart was capable of feeling that much love. The calling definitely had it's hard days for my family, but for us the blessings made it worth it. When the time came to be released my wife and kids had a really hard time with it. They recognized it was a family calling and I really believe they felt the deep love in their hearts too. I never heard my wife or kids complain about it. They were so supportive. There is something about serving others (in any situation not just a church calling) that brings a richness into life. When Jared told the story about the sister who took her life..that was heartbreaking. I hope Jared knows that it's not his fault. From what I gather, Jared seems like a genuinely good man who was just trying his best to help people, I don't gather that the calling was an ego thing for him at all. I know being the Bishop's wife can be extremely hard. Especially when people look to her to have the ear of the bishop with complaints. I suppose being the wife of a bishop is as hard if not harder than being the bishop. Jared and Camille, if I could give both you a hug I would. If you ever just need someone to talk to, please reach out. to me.
But what about the garments? What about the guilt and shame? What about not being able to talk openly about the gospel topic essays? How do you deal with that with your ward. I truly want to know. Your compassion comes through. But how do you deal with the real issues? Former LDS who has come to know the biblical Jesus Christ here.
@@kristinenelson990 What about garments? I've always felt that love goes much further than guilt and shame. I don't know anywhere in the handbook or in the teachings of the gospel that encourages the use of guilt or shame as a tool. Especially as a tool for Bishops. IMHO, People are way too hard on themselves. They didn't need me compounding that. Especially when I bring my own faults and mistakes to the table. I've got no problem with the gospel topic essays, I was happy to discuss anything with anyone, I was always happy to discuss the CES letter and anything of a similar nature. I'm commenting on a Mormon Stories video. lol. Believe me, I'm quite familiar with what is out there. As far as real issues go..For over five years I dealt with real issues. Very hard issues. I learned that most, if not all are dealing with very hard things. Heartbreakingly hard things. I tried my best to handle those issues with love because that's what Jesus taught.
@@kristinenelson990 On a side note, I've never heard or read anything that said I couldn't talk openly about the gospel topic essays?
@@superkingofbros1340 I'm really glad to hear that. I left Mormonism in the mid-90s when it was very different.
I think there has been a deliberate shift towards Christ in the past two decades which has been so much better for those who choose to follow Christ's teachings only.
The issue is the only way to get to heaven is to go through the temple, and if one does not follow the ultimate teachings to get to the temple, they truly do not have the ultimate salvation.
And therein lies the guilt and shame that's inherent in the system.
I have full confidence in my salvation in Jesus of the Bible. There is no way to work oneself on a pathway to heaven. It comes through grace and mercy and his death on the cross. My prayer for the Mormon people is that they understand this difference, throw off the guilt and shame and the temple, & come to know Jesus.
@superkingofbros1340 glad to hear this. I run a support group and I've heard very differently
I've never been Mormon but I have an LDS church across the street from my house. Last summer, there were about a half dozen times where the bishop of the local ward came out of church on Sunday afternoon while I was outside grilling. He came over and we had some great discussions that allowed him to unload his stress and frustrations on me. I think I was someone he could talk to without any judgement or repercussions. I felt so sorry for him and it was so obvious he never should have been selected as bishop. Of course, he felt pressured to accept the calling. He's still the bishop right now and I literally worry for his health and marriage.
I’m a catholic and Chilean, and a huge fan of Mormon stories, but it’s really deeply saddening to hear how many people (including baptized Catholics) have been tricked into Mormon baptisms. I met some missionaries a few months ago, and they conveniently go to the poorest areas of the city, where people don’t speak English and probably don’t understand what they are doing. Great episode!
Perfect example of “The pot calling the kettle black.”
I haven’t gone on any missions to foreign countries trying to baptize people into Catholicism by tricking them, so not really
Mormon missionaries tend to prey on Catholics and I’ve actually heard them say that Catholics are some of the easiest converts to get.
She is so correct. Moving beyond the church taught judgment one really begins to see the wonders of other people.
I so agree with this.
I could relate to this couples story, thanks for sharing! I remember being dumbfounded when I went to lunch periodically with ladies from our Ward and had to listen to them criticize the decisions of my husband who was Bishop at the time. He was spending so much time away from us to serve the people of the Ward and it was heartbreaking to feel how unappreciated he was.
Yes, ditto to this experience - criticism without any appreciation for the family’s sacrifice and burdens placed on them. Multiplied as leadership levels increase beyond the ward level, with an increasing sense of isolation and judgement. Exhausting but mitigated by the allusion that sacrifice brings the blessings of heaven, until you realize it doesn’t.
You are an amazing couple and you are on the right path. My husband and I took the same journey over 45 years ago. I was the one who came apart and my husband stood by me in ways that still make me feel stunned anyone could love me so much. We had 56 years together. He was the love of my life and my very best friend. Forty years from now you will look back and be so grateful to your younger selves for having the courage to step out of the shelter of the greenhouse and into the beauty and adventure of the real world. Bon voyage!😊❤❤❤
I would love to see an episode that interviews a panel of nevermormons who have been watching these episodes for a long time. I know there’s lots of them listening and following and I want to hear what makes these experiences so compelling when they never lived through these experiences, at least in the same context. If this has been done before please point me in the right direction.
I agree.
agree!
I'm an exjw. I watch because I lived a very similar experience in the Jehovah's Witnesses. It took me a few episodes to learn the theology and beliefs of mormonism but all the trauma it causes is the same. I watch Mormon stories just about everyday while I work. All of them are touching, inspiring, and triggering. I really feel like we are cousins in religious trauma. Thank you to everyone who has shared their story. ❤
I'm a never mormon. I have been listening to mormon stories for few years, and to be completely honest I started watching as I have a fascination with cults and deprogramming from cult tactics, so follow scientology ex members and other cults. so liked to listen to how these people have deprogramed from being lds. I do not know any mormon in real life I don't live in US. Its not common where I live. Being mormon sounds so exhausting
I'm a never mormon also. I watch to learn about stuff I've never had exposure to.
As a never Mormon Christian I am horrified by the fact that bishops are assigned so much responsibility. In Christian churches generally the leaders are pastors who have chosen the vocation and have gotten post-graduate degrees to equip them to the work. Then the churches choose their pastors from all over the country (world, really) to fit the “personality” of their congregations. Having someone plucked from the congregation (their peers) and assigned this difficult task seems fraught with structural problems.
Their excuse for doing this is so that person can grow within the calling. True to a point, but what about all the casualties left behind in the growing process.
I was thinking much the same watching this! Incredible to see how a family becomes overwhelmed with taking on these callings while working so hard to raise their own families. I quite honestly saw considerably less commitment from the priests of the church I attended growing up and it was their only job with no family to look after. It’s astounding to see the LDS church lean so hard into the “idle hands” philosophy to the point of burn out of highly committed members.
Another stellar episode! Kudos to all involved.
Years ago our Bishop came to me and told me my daughter couldn't go to girls camp because he thought she was a lesbian. Has she done anything wrong I asked him? He said he had heard from kids at school she was holding hands with another girl. I told him there would be a lawsuit if she wasn't allowed to go. Being a lesbian did not make her a predator.
I love this! Thank you for standing up for your daughter. 🩷🩷🩷
So happy to be a new donor! You both do amazing work with the people. The stories you find and the way they are told have helped me as a non-Mormon living in Sandy emotionally cope with all these Mormons. I do feel completely invisible. I have never lived in such an isolating community. I am shunned as a pariah and it feels really bad. But the stories you tell are so valuable. Thank you and God bless you. Tonight I’m going to see Heretic with my daughter who is the opposite of me politically. ❤
People are not PROJECTS!! From at the very end. I'm so grateful for this episode
To be vulnerable is actually empowering. Anyone who thinks otherwise, concerning a situation like this, is simply envious and threatened by the honesty of these two ppl 🙏
Latter Day Struggles podcast has been a great help to me, deconstructing my LDS beliefs and the devastating emotions that come with realizing the false truth claims and religious manipulation from the church.
OMG! This is just so beautiful and honest. After serving in many leadership positions in my Bountiful ward and raising my children and teaching school here, when I quit attending and then resigned after my husband's death, my dear friends didn't know how to handle it and never talked to me about it or seemed to care. Most of the ward just ignored that fact and did not engage with me or want to know what happened or why. They were not really unkind but I was an enigma that they chose not to deal with. It is a culture of disengaging with anyone or anything that causes them discomfort in their beliefs - not healthy at all, in my opinion.
I am a cancer survivor. I would have much rather have my room redecorated than funeral potatoes. 💛
❤❤
This interview nailed the not-so-humble brag so prevalent in the Mormon church.
Ex Mormon from Mexico. Thank you for sharing your life experience in the church. You are a great and beautiful couple, Hi to John and wife. great Job you are doing.
I’m a “never Mormon” but somehow tripped over the Mormon Stories podcast some time ago. I have so much love and respect for Jared and Camille - and their family - and the sharing of this story. Thank you for sharing! And Camille - nice work doing a hard pivot when your daughter shared her thought about a second piercing…I have no doubt that spoke volumes to her about her worth in your eyes, compared to the human-made (random and ridiculous) rules of the church. ❤️
This was very touching. What a beautiful and caring couple. It is heartbreaking and enraging to hear how much they really cared about people, the youth, how much they dedicated and it seems they were just used and exploited by the church. I’m happy they are living their lives according to their hearts now and not being dictated by others
You are such lovely people! Thanks for sharing!
Margie and John you are both amazing hosts! This was another wonderful episode, addressed sensitively. The Johnson’s seem to be wonderful people. Thanks for all you do❤
Your goodness really shines through your story. I am so glad that you have found a better way for yourselves.
What a beautiful story! Wishing them all the happiness and peace. I wish the church had more bishops like Jared!
What a remarkable episode.
Excellent podcast cast. Beautiful couple thank you for sharing.
I’m pretty sure I went to high school with Jared, glad to see people are waking up. Best of luck.
My sister is mentally ill and lived in SLC for several years before becoming homeless. I know that she had a bishop like Brother Johnson here who helped her when she needed it. I want you to know that what you did to help those in your ward made a big difference. Thank you! 🙏
I remember having a breaking point where I told my Bishop husband I needed him to be released. Took another 25 years to deconstruct because of my deep fears of listening to my inner voice that the truth claims weren’t adding up. I wish I had been strong enough when I was younger to be true to myself.
Loved hearing from this couple- thanks for being vulnerable 😊🩷
Really beautiful episode. My goodness, thank you so much for sharing your experiences. ❤
My family is not LDS but I was raised in a patriarchal system where religious education was used as a fear/control tactic. My father was a public servant turned educator turned church leader. He had his first mental breakdown around 40 like Jared and his second in his mid 60s which unfortunately claimed his life. I cannot express how proud I am of the Johnsons. Breaking the cycle is so hard but the fact that they are leaning on each other and learning from their family unit is so inspiring. Much love.
Valerie Hamaker with Latter Day Struggles is an absolute gem! So so much good information to help you through LDS challenges.
This couple seems extremely happy! I am happy for them.
Former bishop can totally relate. Awesome episode!
In 82 years I’ve never seen a “perfect family”. Humans are NOT perfect, we all have cracks in our veneers. I’m sorry that you put that pressure on yourself.
People aren’t perfect creatures.
There must be something about these ex-bishops that left while being bishop and who were upset with issues and people's experiences as bishop. My dad loved the power and aspects like polygamy, time away from family, getting his ego stroked, women are weak like Eve, etc. I think it made him feel justified in how he treated us at home. So these ex-bishops on MSP make me feel hopeful but also sad because it would have been so cool to have a dad that woke up.
You guys are awesome!! My husband was in the bishopric and sitting on the stand every Sunday while I was sitting in the congregation struggling to control a toddler and deal with a newborn that had some pretty big physical issues. I was also dealing with crippling postpartum depression. No one in the ward ever offered to help. I finally said to my husband, I’m not going to get up every Sunday morning, spend time getting all dressed up, just so I can go and sit in church and not hear a word that’s being said. I asked him if he would be willing to talk to the bishop to see if he could sit with me after the sacrament so he could help with the kids. The bishop said absolutely not. He said the bishopric needs to be on the stand for the entire meeting. After much thought, my husband told him that his family was more important than his calling, and he asked to be released. After that, the bishop never acknowledged my existence ever again. He would come to talk to my husband in the hall, I would be standing right there and he would completely ignore me. Never even looked at me, as if I wasn’t there. He never offered me a calling after that (which was fine with me). He never offered my husband a calling ever again. That was years before my shelf broke. I spent 3 years deconstructing and working to get over the deep conditioning/brainwashing. My husband and I, and our kids, finally had our records removed last year. Best decision I ever made. I think it was one of the prophets that said… “No amount of success makes up for failure in the home.” So glad Jared and Camille chose what was best for themselves and their family!! They’ll no doubt help others through their story.
I could relate to the parentification of Camille in her family and with Marghi that the process makes you a different person than you would have been had you actually lived as a child. It's very painful and I appreciate Camille's sensitivity in diplomatically communicating the truth.
Loved this episode! Thank you for all you do John and Margi! Having the courage to leave the LDS church has brought so much more joy and happiness into my life- marriage is better, family is happier, and my relationship with God is stronger. I am grateful for Mormon stories, as it was so helpful during my faith transition. And now I just enjoy listening!
In reference to no one in Jared and Camille's ward saying anything to them after he was released..... I'm so sorry. That is heartbreaking. I had a similar experience with the way other members have acted. Just so so unkind and inconsiderate. It made me sit down and really think about who these people are. Jared and Camille's experience resonated with me so so much.
Can’t stop thinking about this interview. Their stake president really did them a disservice by releasing Jared as bishop without any kind of comment or speech from Jared or even the stake president. The stake president knew Jared hadn’t done anything wrong. What an utter disappointment after all this couple had given to the church. And then telling them they should probably move? Incredible. Wonderful interview of a wonderful couple!
Thank you so much for your words and experiences. You are truly good and imperfect people. I'm from the East zone from Santiago, Chile. Garner's niece was in my ward. The first missionary that I first met became a zone leader during those years as well. He is also inactive and is a great doctor today. ❤❤
I am very moved by this story. I was raised in a community dominated by a religion in which I was non-observant so I was more culturally connected than spiritually connected. As an adult, I made an effort to study the religion seriously. I ultimately made it the subject of my master's thesis. As a result, I now lean toward atheism. I have not gone full throttle atheism because I am holding out for the possibility of an afterlife to reunite with my parents and a sister who all died much too soon, and for whom I still mourn. Bottom line is that the Johnsons are caring, loving, decent and kind people; that's all that matters. As far as I'm concerned you're all going straight to heaven, if there is a heaven. I am genuinely sorry that such kind-hearted people were made to feel so unworthy when they are the most worthy. I wish you great joy and happiness Jared and Camille. You deserve it.
Margi, thank you for saying, "Now you are in alignment with your values" AND "You deserve good care and to receive good love; not just give it."
I'm a never-Mo, but on a day when I am desperate to have anyone say that to me - I HEARD you. It brought tears to my eyes. Thank you. May God keep you and bless you always.
I’m nearing completion of this podcast. So many emotions and memories. I spent most of my adult life in ward and stake leadership that took me away from my family. I was so narrow focused on Mormonism that it consumed my life. Looking back since leaving in 2021, I have so many regrets. Thankfully all of my children have left the church and live their own authentic lives. Jared and Camille, thank you for being sincere, honest and vulnerable. I am seeing many people I have known over the years now leaving the church. I’m sure y’all are seeing the same. Somehow through intentional control and brainwashing , we’re trapped in living lives that don’t bring true joy or happiness. To take the planning salvation and call it the plan off happiness is imo disrespectful to Jesus Christ. I wish y’all the best and God bless your family . Much respect 🙏
Amazing! More power to your family thru love...,
Thank you for covering IT Couples and the impact on family members by a high-demand religion/corporation.
Churches and Corporations will suck the life out of you and when they're done with you, they're done! Living in the moment and spending time with family is precious. Bless you!
This is a good point. Corporations are not loving communities!
This has been absolutely BEAUTIFUL. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING Your STORIES.
I APPRECIATE YOU ALL SO MUCH ❤
Thank you Jared and Camille for sharing your profoundly powerful story. Your faces shone with radiant joy as you talked about the freedom to be authentically yourselves and that no longer being in the church that you are free to love the wider humanity outside the confines on Mormonism. This is one of my top three episodes! Sending love from Australia
What I love about this episode is that this couple are such a great representation - and with all the respect - of a “typical Utah Mormon family”. I feel like they are so much like so very many family’s who are the good Mormons, who people in the ward would NEVER expect to “lose their faith”. Nothing outrageous - doing all the right things, having a very typical Utah Mormon experience, and kind of like popular Mormon experience. I think their relationship looks a lot like so many faithful Mormons. And for a person in that situation to be able to, or allow themselves to have a “spiritual awakening /loss of faith” is scary as hell. To step away changes one’s entire world and it’s hard. Kudos to you both for your bravery. And of course, as always, Margi is just incredible.
Such an interesting episode thank you! totally could’ve been my path. Married by elder Nelson, (I still remember walking Into his office & that interview & thinking about the “all seeing eye” 😳 husband on the fast track- was the photo in the SFY pamphlet of the one bearing his testimony, EQP at age 21, etc. multiple missions, blessing said he would go on four or more so I had to figure out how to prepare to be his counterpart. but we veered off that trajectory. Interesting seeing how it plays out when you left later on. Thanks for sharing!
I was so surprised learning how much of bishop’s job is finances & that soo many ppl Receive $$. Sometimes it feels like on single mothers that the church creates the problem by making them give up their careers etc & then when they are left destitute, they still have to come ask a man for help & he calls the shots, yet tells her to become self sufficient. Wait but you guys are the one that MADE her dependent in the first place?🤔We lived in a poor city ward overseas & the bishop was so overwhelmed he had my husband doing some of the finance work that only the bishop is suppose to do. I felt so uncomfortable & also was like wait I’m the finance major, I could do this yet they just hand you guys massive budgets & $$ w/zero training & you just wing it?? eye opening how clueless I was about church finances as a female.
Thank you all. It’s nice to see people move forward from cradle to the grave attempted conditioning.
Thank you for an insightful and compassionate story.
That was outstanding! I was amazed that after and during deconstruction how much love I had for everyone. My status of knowing more and having more because of my religion went out the door and everyone was my equal or better.
I’m a believing Christian and watch these interviews for the in depth life story centered around religion and culture. I find this interview fascinating because they seem to have the full acceptance of their friend group and culture but criticism and traumatic counseling experiences seemed to cause them to loose that sense of self actualization. They both appear to have the same reaction to the difficulty. Two take aways. 1. Getting “everything” will cause you to have an unhappiness sooner if it wasn’t what you wanted for yourself. 2. Trials and temptations should be used to fortify yourself. I wish the best for this family. Thanks for doing this interview.
Thanks to all of you for this great episode! The Mormon Discussions type episodes are great as well, but these stories are why I fell in love with MS several years ago and this one is why I donated again (can only do occasional one-time donations) since these episodes are the most meaningful to me and are what I think MS is all about. Thanks again!
I’ve only listened to the first third of this, but Camille! Omg! I feel like we’re the same person. A lot of similar experiences.
Much respect for both of you. I shed a tear or two. I left the church but didn't leave God. I found healing as a Christian and found support at a bible teaching church. God bless you both in your journey.
Ex Mo here. The privilege of being a bishop. Basically working for free.
And paying for the privilege
This is a power couple and people watching this story who are active members will resonate with this story and many people will leave the Church because of this video.
I feel so validated. Thank you for sharing your story. I had multiple breakdowns in EQ president and bishopric callings. I asked to be released from both. My mental health is so much better!
I have a great friend who was a mormon bishop for 5 years and resigned just after he was released. He told me he was a year into being a bishop when he lost all his faith and continued having the calling for another four years.
I asked a disfellowshipped member to say a prayer in Priesthood once. The awkwardness that ensued was horrible.
The bizarre thing is that the teaching is that anyone can talk to God. Does anyone really think that Jesus would stop someone--anyone--from praying, no matter their status? Isn't prayer the thing to be encouraged?
Another great episode. It was emotional and inspiring. Thank you for sharing Jared & Camille ❤️
Amazing story. So glad to see them smile at the end.
I do not understand why the church isn't training or paying bishops. This should be a full-time job, not a volunteer position in addition to a full-time job.
So in my observations as a never-Mo Christian, Mormonism is all about "good works" as the path to eternal life as a family. No forgiveness, no grace, just a looong (and ridiculous) list of man-made criteria that cannot be followed! I'm so glad you got out and what a lovely couple. Peace to you all ❤
I really enjoyed this interview, staying up late to finish it. Appreciate your honesty and candor. The way you were treated after being released was appalling. Yes, it is all about real love and spending time connecting with your own family.
It also feels so dangerous to have all of these major trauma events put on the bishop & nobody involved is a licensed therapist. Bishop can give well meaning but unhealthy advice (I definitely received life changing bad counsel tho well meaning ) & it also can be too much for bishop & wife to walk into. Feels unsafe for everyone. Heart goes out to all involved. So heartbreaking the mental breakdown but sounds like so much good came on other end hooray. sorry you were smeared instead of being thanked for your service. Thanks for sharing!
I was my parents “blessing for service as bishop” born while they were bishop. Child #10 & they didn’t use birth control as the bishops handbook stated. So I guess you could have been blessed with a whole bunch more kids while you were bishop :) sounds like you are in a great place in your life & that’s a great reward❤️
@ Oh yes looking back I’m surprised how formative some of these type of people in classes & testimony meetings were that were very vocal & not necessarily giving good ideas to absorb. Worst was probably youth classes because they are all alone with adult teacher following a manual but I would say there was 10% independent ideas my parents wouldn’t want me learning. At least in the adult classes & testimony meeting, other adults can get up and say counter opinion, or I remember the bishop even making someone on political tirade sit down.
Good point license doesn’t necessarily mean they are following best practices or a good knowledgeable therapist. I guess in the example you gave you have a choice to stand up & counter the individual & also don’t believe this lady is speaking directly with inspiration from God to you like you would in bishop private counsel? You could also find a different therapist or walk out of the group therapy like the women did. I believed my bishop’s counsel was direct revelation from God to me. & bishop here is wondering if he could have done something different for the woman who passed. That makes me feel sad for him walking into all these people in states of trauma & expected to affect their lives but also having to follow rules about finances etc from higher leadership. Bishops don’t choose this, they are called. Therapist do chose that & know what they are signing up for & maybe wouldn’t feel the same level of heaviness if they knew they had followed guidelines of what to do from licensing board? Bishop supposed to follow intuition and the pressure to make the right decision is on them. Can’t really pass the buck to their licensure training or best practice guidelines. Just feels like a lot put on a bishop & also for the member that is taking bishops counsel as revelation from God & hanging on their every word. I wasn’t necessarily meaning they should take therapists in the ward & make them bishop, I was more trying to communicate the fact that both the bishop and the member kind of have no agency in the situation because of their beliefs. Bishop believes it’s his job to know specifically & uniquely what to do to help this individual & the individual believe the same- this specific individual is called by God to have stewardship over their well-being, even when in trauma. I wish there had been more safeguards for some of the situations my father was put in as bishop. Or myself. People have many great experiences but also I think the system is set up for some unfortunate scenarios too.
@@phoenixrising5338 Bishops aren’t your therapists or lawyers or coaches or financial advisor (but kind of is here when they are told to make you a 3 month financial plan etc) & are in a position of power over you & I don’t personally believe they are judge in Israel either. A member isn’t a client in a therapy or legal office and they’re also not your life coach but sometimes it felt like that to me. I took to heart every word & thought that’s what God wanted for me & was even an order. Some advice was helpful & I appreciate it & other counsel was so disastrous I’m damaged by it still. But then I also feel bad for the bishops that are put in this scenario as well thinking they are called & following orders from higher leadership and sacrificing their own lives. I think the whole scenario can be disastrous & should be fixed. I would have liked it to be more like male & female mentors I could voluntarily seek advice from than someone with power over me effecting my every decision..
Expectations.......
In my world, EXPECTATIONS ARE PREMEDITATED RESENTMENTS. Always, no matter what denial clouds this simple guidance.
I was in the MTC at the same time!! It’s crazy that the missionaries were totally disconnected to the events of 911
I love this couple- and can relate even though I have never been Mormon. I did leave a church I had served in for over 20 years and NO ONE cared. Not one person called to ask me why- or even check on me at all. Such a disappointment. And not what God would want for his church.
I'm sorry about that.... hope you're healing well and have found a good community now❤
Great episode! How many of us want to share it with our family and friends that are still active members, but can't because we know it will end our relationships?