As an ex-mormon who works as an archaeologist in America, I honestly can not believe I once thought this stuff had any merit. There is sooooo much proof against the book. It is one of the worst pieces of literature, 100% fiction. It does so much damage in how members of the LDS church view Indigenous populations and science/history overall.
@@mahatmarandy5977 joke, but kinda true. Most "indians" want to be known as Native American's. Only because people from Indian want that name. I'm native and really don't care... until you try to say I act like someone from Indian. 😅
I had a professor in college who was LDS. I have a Master's degree in History. He studied ancient Middle East and Persia. He was so knowledgeable in the field, spoke multiple languages and very fair and thorough in his work. We never discussed the America's in our classes and I never saw bias. I have no idea to this day how he taught us about the formation of Islam and was so open to discussion while believing that many of the people in the regions we discussed at some point crossed the Atlantic Ocean on long boats.
Joseph Smith was truly a miracle man, most magicians can only pull a rabbit out of a hat, he pulled out an entire cult and a business for centuries to come 😇
I imagine it was the only possible way in the 1860s to 1) be poly and 2) still have a social group that didn't cast you out. Granted, the rest of the world cast him out, which kind of proves the point, but he maintained a society that practically worshipped him anyway.
That is just not true,the opening introduction to the Book of Mormon,gives the witness and testimony of 8 men who both saw and handled the plates themselves one by one.
@@DanBurress😅😅. What he means is he has signatures from people claiming they saw the gold plates..but they conveniently disappear right after this so called event. The man made prophecies that failed,.multiple times. I can.only imagine the mental gymnastics needed to overlook this blatant mark of a false prophet
I believe Mark Twain was being fair in his review, if you are having trouble sleeping this is the book 📚 to read. It'll put you to sleep for sure. The BoM-is so so boring!!!!!!!!
Something I will never forget is when I was 7, I picked up a prehistoric archaeology book and showed it to my dad. He scanned it for a bit, and towards the end there was a section on early man. He told me to never read past that part, and I obeyed. Today I am 18, and the past 2-odd years of my life has been a nightmare of navigating how I perceive the world and (mentally, at least) leaving the mormon church. I was only 15 when I came across the ever iconic CES letter and as someone very, very interested in history and archaeology it took me years of careful consideration, hiding my thoughts, mental turmoil, research and notes, to come to the conclusion that the book of mormon is not true. I really appreciate you making this video as it feels like a neat little tie around the package of everything ive come to learn. Although it was hard for me to hear first several years ago, now hearing aaalll the points and lies and inconsistencies within the church and its history is like listening to a song you never get tired of, its freeing and it motivates me to pursue the truth even further. Thank you Alyssa!!
"and towards the end there was a section on early man. He told me to never read past that part, and I obeyed." And that's why they brainwash small children :( As someone who didn't have religion forced on them as a child (I asked for it), the first thing I would have done (as soon as he was gone) would have been to read the bit he said not too ! LOL
Thank you for this comment 💙 “A song you never get tired of” really resonates with me, because little things like this really are healing. I hope you can continue to make your own new path. Thank you for watching :)
It’s nice to read about your experience, I congratulate you on your progress in finding truth and peace , I am 70, I left the church at 25 when they told me to deny my 2 year old daughter life saving medication and give them the money instead. I walked away , put this part of my life on a shelf. Present day, I am looking after my father with dementia, who hasn’t spoken to me in 50 years, now he wants my services and help. The problem is, dealing with him, brings to the present all my bad experiences, with the church and my upbringing, I can no longer address these issues with a sick old man, the emotional cost to me is an immense burden, affecting my health. So in conclusion, you have my admiration for your decision to resolve this lds crap and then throw it away and then start your life new and fresh away from this horrible cult.
People like to defend Joseph Smith’s polygamy and racism with the statement “That’s just how things were back then.” But if Joseph smith was truly a prophet of god, how do his actions align with the qualities expected of a prophet? Would a true prophet lead others into practices that cause harm or violate fundamental human rights? The Book of Mormon condemns polygamy, yet Joseph Smith engaged in it. How can someone be considered a prophet when they act in ways that contradict the teachings claimed to be from god?
I mean, I agree it's Bad. Yet the Bible promoted Genecide, Slavery. God punished Davids new born with death and his wife with Public Graping due to his sin's. Paul continued to Promote slavery in the new testament. The Bible, just as the book of Norman, doesn't stand to modern human morality.
My father’s family is Mormon. By the time I was born, my father had already left. My grandparents were very devout and a couple of my uncles are still very devout. One of them is actually a Bishop for his ward. One thing that I have noticed, even from a young age, is just how DISINGENUOUS the kindness that was offered from them felt (except for from my grandparents). It always felt like they were only being kind or giving because they were COMMANDED to, not because they genuinely wanted to. If you need a “higher power” to scare you into doing nice things, then maybe you weren’t such a good person to begin with 🤷♀️
My sister is Mormon today. What you describe is a tactic of cult mind control. If you are interested in much more read this book: "Combating Cult Mind Control" Steven Hassan
That's so sad. There's probably tons of phonies in the church, but my experience was the opposite, which is why I was temporarily convinced that they were onto something. Those I got to know over several months seemed genuinely pure hearted, but it was a smaller area with fewer members. In a place like Utah, I'm sure I'd have been less easily convinced.
When Mitt Romney was running against Obama, many people of ‘faith’ were saying that Romney is better because he gave away 10% of his income to charity while Obama didn’t come close. They didn’t realized that as a Mormon, Romney is obliged to give 10% to his church. If you consider the Mormon church is a charity or not, I won’t argue.😊
Jesus commands us to do unto others as you would have then do unto you. That’s not even a Mormon teaching, it comes from the Bible read by Billions of people. Im so happy your family is striving to follow the teaching of Jesus Christ about being kind to others.
It actually makes perfect sense. The natural man is an enemy to God. Self control is unnatural, and needs to be practiced. Charity is unnatural, and needs to be practiced. I'm not sure the same can be said for the natural women.
I remeber reading it out of curiosity last year. It was one of the worst written books I've ever read, clearly a nineteenth century dude trying to sound like the King James Bible and failing miserably. Such a transparent scam, i thought. I swear Brigham Young's smartest move and why Mormonism got as big as it did was moving everyone out to Utah, where generations of Mormons could grow up in isolation, never knowing any better.
I read it as a teenager, in a Utah hotel room. It thought it read like really bad fiction in pseudo-King James Bible prose. Even then I thought, if Smith was inspired by God to translate an ancient language, why would it come out sounding like that? That’s not how people spoke in the 1800s, except perhaps itinerant preachers at a Religous Revival.
If you want great writing, you should stick to novels. Eye witnesses or journalists are rarely great writers. What I have discovered is that the Book of Mormon is unusually concise. When writing is a laborous process, very little gets written. Some writers of the Book of Mormon wrote less than a paragraph. The style of writing is Early Modern English, which some might misinterpret as biblical English, but this was an English far removed from Joseph Smith's education. It is likely he didn't know the dated meaning of some of the terms he used. The choice of Early Modern English actually dates the translation itself to the early 1600's. Joseph Smith translated by revelation; he never claimed to speak or read the Nephite language. I suggest that the actual translator knew both.
Mark Twain humorously remarked about the frequent use of the phrase "and it came to pass" in the Book of Mormon. He said: "If Joseph Smith had left out that ubiquitous phrase, the Book of Mormon would have been only a pamphlet."
Mark Twain was mistaken, his worldly mind, was not able to grasp what a treasure the Book of Mormon really is, as it testifies that Christ has come to rescue even Mark Twain, from the grasp of sin and gross darkness.
@alyssadgrenfell 😂 The church does teach that anything is possible if you pray with sincere intent. And to be fair, Joseph Smith did get what he wanted, unfortunately.
When I was first questioning, “faithful” resources were still the only stuff I was willing to read. Ironically the faithful explanations of this type of subject matter still led me to ultimately choose to leave.
It's maybe not intentionally but it's also such a power move. To say that they should look at all kinds of sources, including faithful ones, just shows that she is not afraid of people questioning her points as well. Contrary to church leaders who don't want members to look at unfaithful sources. Honestly seems like a good way to get faithful members to also watch and listen to her video. Because they'll believe that when they look at church sources later they will find explanations for everything there.
As someone who did not grow up in the church and became a convert all I can say is this. When I listen to you all I see is darkness, when I listen to the missionaries all I see is light. When I went to the temple I felt a peace that surpasses all understanding. So say what you like, Heavenly Father has shown me through the spirit the truth. When I have prayed for confirmation of the church I felt peace beyond all understanding, so say what you like this cannot be falsified.
I have ADHD and always had a hard time reading the Book of Mormon. I grew up in the church. My Dad would make my sibling and I read the book EVERY night for 20 minutes . I had a hard time staying focused and getting into it because I thought it was sooo boring, I would just pretend to read it and when my Dad would quiz us on it, I would just repeat what my other sibling would say. In sacrament I was always fidgeting and would constantly look at the clock, I couldn't wait for it to be over so I could get up and move my body! I stopped going when I turned 18. I used to feel so guilty for not going to church, But the thought of sitting for 3 hours ( Now it's 2 hours) killed me. It was sooo boring! Lol. Your channel has helped me not feel guilty anymore. You have helped me see the bigger picture. Thank you Alyssa! I am so grateful for you. Keep up the good work.
@@trinityc3579 I would have told you to see mormon stories but that is long form. What I do is start and just listen and stop when I can't any more and go back later
I like the God Loves Mormons (GLM) podcast because it’s short and digestible - you might enjoy that as well…not that you need convincing at this point. Congrats on your escape from Mormonism. Hope some of your family joined you in leaving.
We had to read it in a family circle, taking turns reading aloud. My brother and I used to make up random passages when it was our turn just to add to the interest level. We literally never got caught.
Another point of reference is Thomas Stuart Ferguson, he was a true believing Mormon who was dedicated to proving the BOM true. The Church funded his work The New World Archeological Foundation. He spent nearly 25 years searching foe evidence for the BOM, at the end of the day he concluded the the book is fictional. I have a copy of a letter he sent to someone who made an inquiry about his work, he responded (in part) "what is in in the ground will never correspond to what is in the book because it's fictional"
They said that about my ancestors in Turkiye as well. Yet LD$ put otherwise in our family records with a wonderful facade of a fairytale and mission Pres.Booth
The Book of Mormon. I remember feeling so horrible as a young child when I accidentally let the words slip out of my mouth that another book was my favorite book, or saying “that is the truest thing ever written!” About something I agreed with or thought was funny. Of course someone would have heard me, and corrected me, saying “no, the Book of Mormon is the truest thing ever written”, or saying “well my favorite book is the Book of Mormon”, making me feel guilty. I was also told that a scripture a day keeps the devil away, after I had sleep paralysis for the first time, and was horrified of going to sleep again because I through demons were attacking me and would possess me. So I started reading the Book of Mormon every day. I was told many times that the scriptures would make you feel peaceful, but really, whenever I read them, I’d feel anxious, and have a stomach ache because I felt like everything I was reading was wrong. That made me feel like there was something wrong with me. I’m glad to be out of this church
There are sooooooooooooo many errors with the Book of Mormon. Such as: -written in Egyptian ( 1 Nephi 1:2) -Messiah being mentioned by name BEFORE He is born ( 2 Nephi 25:20) -NOT divinely inspired ( Jarom 1:1 & Omni 1:1!!!!!!) -called "christians" in 73 B.C. ( Alma 46:15) -Messiah will be born in JERUSALEM ( Alma 7:10) -returns to "day of judges" ( Helaman 4:17) -prayer quoted from MEMORY ( 3 Nephi 13:9-13) -too amazing to be true ( 4 Nephi 1:32-33) -the problem of Mormon theology ( Moroni 4:3) -and MANY other problems The hard part is HOW to talk to Mormons in a productive manner- without "tarring their book up" up one side and down the other.
In retrospect, I'm embarrassed that I spent most of my life believing The Book of Mormon to be literally true. If that's what you grow up with though, it just seems normal.
Completely agree! But I honestly feel that such efforts were made to convince us it was LITERALLY TRUE that it feels like it was impossible to see it any other way.
I stayed in the church two decades after I already knew it couldn't possibly be literally true, and knew that the church itself softened it's own language about the historicity of the book of mormon. The argument goes, it's about as true as the bible, which also is demonstrably not literally true. The universe is 13.7 billion years old, so even if you devoutly believe the bible, you can't believe it's literal and believe facts at the same time. Finding value in faith and community when it's essentially myth is hard. It broke down when I couldn't be part of the community anymore.
Honestly the Book of Mormon is so insulting to Indigenous communities across America and the tens of thousands of years of their history which is well-documented.
As a Native American, this book is so outrageous in many of its claims. On our reservation many of our teachers were Mormon, it makes sense to me now some of the soft racism I felt
As a indigenous individual & female, being raised in this cult I always felt like I was less than even a second class citizen. I'm out of this cult now & much happier, without all the lies & judgement.
The intellectual DRIVEL Mor(m)onism is based on was HUGELY POPULAR at the time of Joe Smiff's change to scamming people with religion, after he'd been nearly JAILED for his "Gold of the Lost Tribes and Indians" in Pennsylvania, but got out because they told him, "You can go to jail, or you can go back where you came from!" ..., which were the Burned Over Districts of NY ..., which, by themselves were Burned Over because of the HUGE number of Christian Based SCAMS at the time!!
Many native Americans are members and trace their family history in the church back to the days of Joseph Smith. There are Native American books and legends that match well with the Book of Mormon. Chief Midegah is a prominent youtube voice for the Book of Mormon. ruclips.net/video/VvQ70KGClI0/видео.html&ab_channel=ZionMedia
I wish I had watched this video as Mexican who just encountered a young Mormon missionary while shopping in Toluca. I think is funny they want to link our ancient Aztec serpent god. We still have indigenous tribes living here that don’t even associate with Christianity, yet they want to say this is proof. The condescending nature of Mormons with natives is confusing, why you would want people in your church you don’t like ?
17:33 I love how you customized your text by crossing out 'son' and writing 'daughter'. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it feels like a tiny little rebellion in the misogynistic culture you were experiencing.
@@alyssadgrenfell honestly, the idea that god had to be a man was something that always bothered me growing up catholic, nowadays even though I don't fully believe, I still replace "him" with "her" as an act of rebellion myself 🙈😔
I used to prefer "they" re: a non binary diety... Mormom theology assigns gender specifically however, as there is implied a divine "mother" god (or several, god is polygamous in mormonism).
@@kewlkatnat Reminds me of me and my sister as kids singing the German national anthem and changing the lyrics from brother/father to sister/mother. So we sang "Unity and Justice and Freedom For the German Motherland - After these let us all strive Sisterly with heart and hand". We just thought we were so cool, rebellious and clever for that.
@@alyssadgrenfellwhen I was younger, I know I heard the sisterhood being told to "liken the scriptures unto" themselves as well. If they can control the kinds of rebellion you can do, then they can continue to control the narrative.
it’s also interesting that they said that they spoke reformed Egyptian when the language of the israelites was ancient hebrew or aramaic depending on when they are said to have migrated
@@WitchOracleAlso because at the time translating Egyptian was thought impossible, the news of the Rosetta Stone being discovered hadn’t reach the Americas yet
I'm an ex-mo from Mexico, and here it's wild. There are trips to archeological sites like Teotihuacan organized by the church, and they give guided trips with the point of view and explanation of how's related to mormonism. Some stuff they say is like, "Look how similar is the clothes of the Atlantes de Tula to the temple clothes." Those trips are for members, but of course, they might use them as proselitism to people who aren't mormon.
Listening to Alyssa trying to explain the Book, it’s like listening to Trump answering the question on how he was going to lower child care cost in America. 🤔
wow. i’m not even 1/3 through yet, but this video is already SO thorough, well researched, well organized, and honestly respectful. As a Christian, one of my favorite sayings is “A faith not worth investigating is not worth having” ❤
@@HomoLegalMedic I think you have a misunderstanding of faith and belief in Christianity. Let's take a boat for example. I show that I have faith/trust/belief in the boat by actually getting into it and pushing off from shore. It doesn't matter if I looked it over first, watched others safely cruising around in it, or researched how a boat works. Fundamentally I still demonstrate faith when I am actually relying on the boat to keep me alive. Christianity teaches that we are saved by the object of our faith, not the amount of our faith. I could blindly and quickly get into a boat that is full of holes. Sure, that might seem like really good faith because it came without questioning, but that faith and trust won't actually save me because the boat is shoddy. Contrast that with someone who sat on the shore for weeks watching a good boat's performance. Maybe they spent time looking it over, testing it out, talking to people who had been on it etc. Even if at the end of all that they got in the boat trembling with fear, their weak and meager faith would still save them from drowning because the boat itself is trustworthy. True Christianity welcomes questioning and investigation because it is watertight so to speak. Ultimately, though, you need to make a decision whether or not you're going to hop in, run away, or just keep hanging around the dock talking about the boat (or religion) and pretending like you really believe in it, all the while never really having true faith. Hope that helps!!
@@HomoLegalMedic just giving my opinion, faith and evidence can and SHOULD coexist. For example I am a Christian (never been a Mormon) but I was agnostic until my early twenties. Having evidence provided in the Bible that is proved true by science, having ACTUAL history and historical figures in the Bible, and seeing how the life of Jesus would have played out in his time and society are all things that reinforce my faith, personally. But other people might say exactly what you’re saying: you shouldn’t need evidence if you have faith. It’s an individual preference but if you ask me, I like Alyssa’s mantra of informed consent; you should know the truth behind the religion that you’re signing up for. You deserve at least that much.
@katschneidermusic6745 faith and evidence can't coexist. Faith, by definition, doesn't require evidence and is therefore either useless or can't coexist with evidence. Either there is evidence and you don't need faith, or you gave faith and don't need evidence.
I am an non believer. I have read many books. To then decide that ONE of those books is 'the absolute truth' is a completely foreign concept to me. I am literally unable to understand the thought process behind such a decision. Books contain many truths, and also many fantasies, that is kind of the point of books... or am I being too simplistic now?
A replica of what the plates would have been like was made with lead sheets, similar in weight and consistency to gold. It was on display for a time in the Tanners Utah lighthouse mission. The book weighs many tens of pounds and is quite fragile. It is totally impractical for it to have been passed down as a continuous historic record for hundreds of years.
@@ronjones4069Yet, we have manuscripts of other “fragile” materials that have been passed down. I feel like gold would have been more “practical” than papyrus and scrolls.
Not to mention the fact that ZERO tribes of New York have any stories of such a battle or people fitting the description of the so-called participants.
Thank you for posting this. The fact that Mitt Romney went to Harvard Business School and Harvard Law School concurrently and made top grades in both schools and still believes in Mormonism shows how powerful childhood conditioning is.
24:32 It's a shame how BYU gets used to science-wash the church. I recently found out that a great academic resource I use was originally housed at BYU, but the professor in charge had to evacuate the project from BYU and quit teaching because administrators were trying to interfere with the project‽ With that and some of the questionable "peer-reviewed" papers that come out of BYU, it really makes me wonder how much scientific progress has been set back by them essentially serving the church above all else
That would be harder if Mayans hadn't claimed to be Israelites in their history "Los Titulos de los Senores de Totonicapan". It would also be harder if the cross wasn't a major piece of their iconography, and if they didn't have legends of a bearded white god who would return one day.
@@robertrosskopf4641 You need to go back and research your claims more properly. The MAYANS never claimed they were Israelites, Europeans had a misconception that they WERE part of the Lost Tribes of Israel. You are literally trying to blame the Mayans for something they didn't believe and push on them the beliefs of the European Colonizers. Mayans never claimed that, the Europeans claimed that based on misconceptions.
Watching Alyssa's content as a non-Mormon, I've been trying to put my finger on why I find the story of the Mormon's to be so interesting. One theory I have is that there is this strange contrast between the idea of a group of people who seem really gullible but who also very kind, friendly, neighborly, and enthusiastic about what they believe on one hand, versus these things such as repression, groupthink, and polygamy that are really dark on the other hand....
To me the most obvious thing that sets off my BS meter is “reformed Egyptian”. Why would people from Jerusalem be speaking Egyptian? We have a decent number of surviving texts, including holy texts, from 2000+ years ago. Most early surviving Jewish and early Christian texts were in Aramaic, Greek, and Old Hebrew. Even the Egyptians themselves were very Hellenized by ~2000 years ago and a lot of the elites (who were the only ones reading and writing) would have spoke Greek or Latin. The only way this makes sense is if you consider that it was written by a guy who didn’t know much about history or geography and just knew Jerusalem was somewhere kinda near Egypt.
Smith and his contemporaries were aware that ancient Jews spoke Hebrew. He chose “reformed Egyptian” based on the widespread belief at the time that Egyptian Hieroglyphs represented an abstract form of communication rather than a language. If you read the “translation” of Egyptian Hieroglyphs attempted by Athanasius Kircher, you can see this in action. He wrote a multi-paragraph, biblically inspired translation of an Egyptian obelisk in Rome which he called Obeliscus Pamphilius. The hieroglyphs themselves say “Horus, strong bull, beloved of Maat.” He translated: “To the triform Divinity Hemptha - first Mind, motor of all things, second Mind, craftsman, pantamorphic Spirit - Triune Divinity, eternal, having no beginning or end, Origin of the secondary Gods, which, diffused out of the Monad as from a certain apex into the breadth of the mundane pyramid, confers its goodness first to the intellectual world of the Genies, who, under the Guardian Ruler of the Southern Choir and through swift, effective and resolute followers Genies who partake in no simple or material substance, communicate their participated virtue and power to the lower World...” (Keep in mind that this entire paragraph supposedly came from like 5 symbols.) Smith would not have known about the Rosetta Stone yet, and so he thought he could “translate” Egyptian as much as he wanted and get away with it. See also his horrific “translation” of the Book of Abraham, which was actually a collection of Egyptian funerary texts.
My mom's cousin was a professor of Anthropology at BYU. He was one of those who traveled around seeking evidence to support Mormon history. He worked on some cool digs, but obviously he never found what he was looking for.
One thing that stands out immediately is that even if all religions are wrong, the Torah, Bible, and Quran are ancient texts, so they have some cultural basis in society. They were written and sounded like the eras they originated from. Joseph Smith wrote like no one spoke at the time the text was created. "Verily I say unto thee!" That's the era of a King James translation, not Joseph Smith's era. The Book of Morman is completely out of place in time, which automatically throws up red flags!
Like you, I also served a Mormon mission. After 55 years in the Mormon Church, I’m continuing as a missionary but I’m now testifying that the church is NOT TRUE! I’m thankful for my time as a sister missionary because that experience taught me how to testify of truth-or the truth as I knew it then. Now, thanks to the internet and more importantly the voice of God, I now can testify boldly that I was deceived by the corrupt Mormon Church and warn others to beware of the corporation of the president. Keep up the excellent work you amazing missionary woman! 🎉
Props to you for not only finding your way out, but trying to help others do the same. Religion is truly a virus of the mind that preys on the most earnest qualities of human beings.
I spoke with a missionary who said "Why read the Bible when I have the Book of Mormon to read instead?" He admitted that he's never read the Bible all the way through, there's still sections of the Bible he's never read. But he has read the BOM cover to cover many times. Because it's just "better". They really throw the Bible under the bus.
They really throw the Bible under the bus. That comment is so true. And it's done because if you really read all the Bible you would see how much better IT is.
@@deniseeulert2503 obviously. because whether you are a Christian or not, you have to admit that the Bible is based on real facts, historical places, real people and real events. Most of the Bible is concrete history (unlike the BOM)
I left the church over 30 years ago. Only since discovering your channel have I taken it upon myself to check whether many of my favorite "Bible verses" existed outside of the JST version. Spoiler alert: almost none of them did. A few weren't even in the JST version of the Bible. They were quotes from the Book of Mormon. Fortunately, when I left the church, I swore off all organized religion, so I didn't have to endure a second crisis of faith. These days, I simply focus on being the kindest, most loving, and forgiving version of myself that I can possibly be.
As a teenager I became a born again Christian based solely on the idea that "if so many people believe it, it has to be true". I was so naive. Turns out it is very easy to get large numbers of people to believe things.
Even as a believer, there is an intrinsic problem there because there are several major religions with different beliefs (not even other Christian denominations: Islam, Judaism, Buddism, Induism etc) with millions of followers each. We all have those moments of "how could I believe this".
I consider myself a Christian, but there is a lot of problems in Christianity I try my best not to look down on anybody because I am far from perfect. I make mistakes every day so I don't have a right to judge anybody I don't care how anybody lives their life.
As an ex Mormon I never saw the hype of the Book of Mormon. Everyone raved about how great it was but… ehh? It makes sense now that I don’t believe it’s divine anymore.
I genuinely think that most Mormons haven't actually read The Book or Mormon cover to cover. Most of them just read certain sections and skip over the boring parts. Maybe 10% of the book is actually interesting at all imo. Edit: of course tbf, the same could be said about most Christians and the Bible.
@@alyssadgrenfellAlyssa...have you read The Book of Jeraneck yet? It's even worse than the B.O.M. The Book of Jereneck is suposedly a record of the ancient people of The British Isles. The Jereneckites are our home grown version of mormonism here in The U.K.🇬🇧
@saulwoolsey9801 Hi there mate. If you type in Restored Branch of Jesus Christ Matthew Gill, you can find everything. I once chatted to Matthew and he seemed the nicest person. An angel left the plates for the Book of Jeraneck on his front door step apparently!
I am getting out now and I am in my mid 40’s. Wish I had done it long ago. Frustrating for me that I believed this for so long and paid so much. Thanks though to my wife leading the way out and at least we have saved our kids from being trapped.
CongrTs on leaving. Leaving religion is a tough battle. Took me ten years to leave christianity, despite all the silliness and nonsense surrounding the belief.
I remember when I was a university student I was approached by missionaries on the street, and I had this one missionary yelling at me that the Book of Mormon was the 'Word of God'. I asked him how and all he could say was that "He could feel it in his bones and breath" which is really a load of bs and gaslighting...The fact that I was a young teenager, and I had a hard time saying 'No' I decided to cave in to see what this guy was talking about. I decided to give them my number, and looking back the biggest mistake was giving them those details. Keep in mind I was very well versed in the bible as I'm an ex Catholic now and I've read many versions of the bible. I've also read the Whole New Testament and the majority of the Old Testament for sure. I agreed upon a time to meet, and we met at the church these delusional people have on campus so they can bother and prey on university students with the hopes of converting them to their cult ... We got straight to business, and I brought my bible with me asking the missionaries the hardest questions I felt about the Christian faith and most importantly the occultism behind Mormonism. We spoke for like 30 minutes and most importantly I asked about the fact that Joseph Smith was a 33rd degree Freemason meaning he was a Scottish Rite Inspector General within a SECRET SOCIETY when in Luke 8:17 (KJV) it states that "For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad". I thought it was very weird for a man to profess being a person of God, and yet belonged to a secret society and engaging in secret activities behind the scene. The missionary just dodged my question, and told me to pray to God. I could feel this person was just reading off a script and not having a genuine authentic conversation with me. Vibes dont lie, and I inferred that it was pretty obvious. They prayed in front of me trying very hard to appear pious, and asked if I would join before hand twice to which I declined. It never felt like I was having a conversation with two people. It was rather with an organized religion with it's own set of formal structure, hierarchy, official doctrine, beliefs, rituals etc. and this person was simply regurgitating what some other person told him. Which is why I left the Catholic faith Whats very disrespectful was that he gave me homework, and told me to start reading chapters in the book. After that they set another appointment with me. Before I left the building I pretended to agree with the appointment date, and put on a fake smile as they were being disingenuous with me so I didn't see a problem in doing that. I shook their hands, and stated "I would see them next week" to which the missionary responded "We'll see you next week ________, and don't forget your homework". After I left the building I made a promise to myself that I won't do that again, and I would never speak to the missionaries. Whats crazy is that a months and even 2 years down the road they wouldn't stop harrasing me even though I made it super clear I wasn't interested. It was only until I got a text from a different missionary if "You've heard of missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints?" to which I responded "Yes I have, and I dont believe in organized delusion." that I never heard from them again. Now I can breathe a sigh of relief lol.
My father, an atheist with a fervent dislike of organised religions - possibly because of his experiences during the Great Depression and during WWII - once invited two 'missionaries' in to the house for a discussion. Looking back, I feel rather sorry for them, as the three hours they spent in his company must have been the hardest test of their faith they had ever had to experience. They left exhausted and subdued. Dad felt rather proud of himself, though Mother told him never, ever to do it again, as she'd had to delay the evening meal.
@@NoName-ur2vs you definitely had those young men at a disadvantage. You a well read college student with an insane amount of biblical knowledge. Them a couple of kids pushed into their little box and just following the words that they were taught. They stood no chance! But the system is effective. They're more like extremely resilient door to door salesmen than actual religious representatives.
I am an ex JW and understand how hard it was to escape that absurd ideology and group of fallacious claims. Good for you 🙌🥳, welcome to the enlightenment.
It's definitely a summary, I feel like apologists have proven you can re-litigate every tiny centimeter of this conversation, so you can really go off into left felid if you're not careful.
@@alyssadgrenfell "so you can really go off into left felid if you're not careful." Or the Malay Peninsula. I don't think the Old World models would work either, but they present completely different problems from the New World models.
"why lie about the face in the hat situation?" just an absolutely absurd question to have to ask of a corporation that stole money and hope from me as a child. Sheesh, feckin ridiculous
Joseph Smith looked at the names of places in the surrounding region, including Ontario, and slightly altered them to create the names in the Book of Mormon. Some examples include: Alma (Valley of Alma) - possibly derived from Alma, Ontario Antrim (Antum) - possibly derived from Antrim, Ontario Boaz - possibly derived from Boaz, Ontario Connor (Comner) - possibly derived from Connor, Ontario Ephrem (Ephraim, Hill) - possibly derived from Ephraim, Ontario Hellam (Helam) - possibly derived from Hellam, Ontario Jacobugath (Jacobsburg) - possibly derived from Jacobugath, Ontario Jerusalem - possibly derived from Jerusalem, Ontario Jordan - possibly derived from Jordan, Ontario Lehi - possibly derived from Lehigh, Ontario Moroni - possibly derived from Monroe, Ontario Morianton - possibly derived from Moraviantown, Ontario Noah (Land of Noah) - possibly derived from Noah Lakes, Ontario Onidah - possibly derived from Oneida Castle, Ontario Omner (Omer) - possibly derived from Omer, Ontario Ripliancum (Ripple Lake) - possibly derived from Ripliancum, Ontario Sidom (Sodom) - possibly derived from Sidom, Ontario Shilom (Shiloh) - possibly derived from Shiloh, Ontario
The word "Mormon" isn't a slur. It's the name of a great prophet who compiled the writings of other prophets into a book. Hence, it is the book that Mormon wrote, or The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
@ But I thought that according to the LDS Church it wasn’t Mormon who wrote the book, but it was God who sent the book to Joseph Smith? Correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t that suggest the Book of Mormon was written and not translated?
@@LaurenxOtt I will give you a correction. If you read the book, the introduction page explains the book. According to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The Book of Mormon is a book compiled by the prophet Mormon, who also added his own commentary. He then gave it to his son, also a prophet, Moroni, who completed the last bit of the book and placed it in the ground. Where Joseph Smith later found it through the assistance of Moroni, now an angel. Joseph used revelation both through the Seer Stones and direct revelation to translate the "Reformed Egyptian" writings into English. The Church has never stated that it was "God who sent the book to Joseph Smith." If it had, it would be incredibly easy to show that the Church had fallen away from its written word that states the above in the title pages, in the testimony pages, in the books of Nephi 1, Nephi 2, Mosiah, Helaman, Mormon, and Moroni, and Joseph Smith's own written words, etc.
The thing you mentioned about anachronisms later in the video really threw me back to when I was in a christian elementary school and involved with the church as a kid, because they did the same thing. I would notice something that didn't check out and they would be like "oh they didn't mean that, that's just how they translated it to make it make more sense to us" but them of course I started wondering, wait what else did they just decide to translate differently? really makes you lose faith in, at the very least, the accuracy of the book, since i guess they can just translate things however they feel is best. I understand localization to an extent but you's think for something as important as a religious text they would want to be as accurate as possible lol
I agree on the major point though. The historical fiction that is the Catholic, Ethiopian, Orthodox, or Protestant Bibles at least have historical places, times, and events.
Fun fact: there are passages of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon that hadn’t *been written yet* at the time the BoM claims it was taken from Jerusalem with Lehi.
And don't forget the errors that were in the 1769 version of the King James Bible that ended up in the book of Mormon, The Lord sure works in strange ways don't he?
Oh, you're spot on with the apologetics doing more harm than the actual doubt. I was much better off with an unanswered question than a ludicrous explanation.
That 56:10 description of Joseph Smith crafting the book of mormon is almost the EXACT way I described him to my (then friend) husband when I was first leaving the church 8 years ago. wow! Keep up with the great work!
This honestly boggles my mind. I’ve never been Mormon or interested in any type of religion. I was raised Christian, but turned atheist at 10 because I didn’t believe any of that. I found your channel after watching Heretic and saw your Heretic review and watched a few of your other videos. I am a new sub and I’m really glad that I watched this video. Soooooo many inconsistencies I don’t understand how people believe. The whole time I was just like wtf this doesn’t make any sense…. How do soooo many people blindly believe because they were born into the church, and how have older people in the church still believe? I would love to debate someone in the church. I’ve gone down a Mormon rabbit hole since watching Heretic. Obviously I was aware of the religion before Heretic, but after watching the movie it did spark my interest again. My fiancé surprised me with Book of Mormon tickets for February in Long Beach. I’ve never seen a musical before, but I heard it’s written by the guys who made South Park and I just rewatched their Mormon episode and I am so down to watch it and have it be my first musical.
If I was being extremely generous to Joseph Smith, I could see him using a lot of Psychedelics which would have been freely available in the area he grew up. While using a lot of them myself I have seen "Golden plates" with writing on them when I close my eyes, and sometimes even entire pages of text that I recognized, and could make out the words of (Although in my case, this was a diner menu from earlier that day).
@@Yaseyeh The Word of Wisdom notably does not prohibit "Herbs, plants and roots" - "every herb in the season thereof...all these to be used in prudence and thanksgiving."
As someone's whose has made a life goal of reading the scriptures of every religion, I can confidently say that the BoM is, by far, the most boring. Which is a shame as it has an interesting story and ideas...just that writing...WHY DID HE HAVE TO TRANSLATE/"TRANSLATE" (DEPENDING ON YOUR POV) IT INTO KING-JAMES-STYLE ENGLISH?
If you can find it, there used to be a podcast called My Book of Mormon, where someone reads the entire book for the first time out loud and does funny commentary about how absurd it is. That's probably a good way to go if you want to read it and also be entertained. Also, I think it's funny how the BOM has the exact errors that a King James Bible would've had circa 1830.
What I never understood is how people can look at the size of the Book of Mormon & the amount of words it contains, then think "Yeah, all that could fit on *GOLDEN PLATES!"* I mean, did Joseph Smith carry back an entire carriage convoy of golden tablets? Think of how many pieces of paper it took to fit all the words, let alone pieces of metal with the words inscribed on them! And he apparently put them in a hat & translated with a "seer stone?" How did he hide so many metal tablets from Martin Harris & where did he store them all?
The claim is 1) they were written in the "reformed Egyptian", ie compact language. and 2) he didn't use the plates anyway, just the hat. no plates were even present most of the time.
The stone in the hat didn't require the plates. So why come up with this story of golden plates? Because it sounds better because JS was treasure hunter. Look at how the Koran was transcribed with no physical objects.
10:00 He thinks that sounding "old-timey" makes him sound authentic, just like Joseph Smith and his King James style speech in the 1800s. "In these our times..., heretofore unknown text..., such persons, elect or otherwise..." 🙄 Also, millions of people believe that they voted correctly in the last election.
How insulting is it to purport that those who do not believe in the Book of Mormon are somehow less intelligent, less intellectually curious and capable than the tiny percentage of humans who wish to be a part of the LDS Church?
It's called 'othering', aka 'dehumanising'. A feature of just about all organised religions. The Catholic Church, during the colonisation of Middle and South America used this argument as a way of justifying the genocide. But it wasn't just the Catholic church. There are many historical instances of similar acts being perpetrated by other sects and denominations.
It's evolutionary tribal behavior. Pre-demonize everyone who believes something else so you believe you are more important than them. It's an idiots process but works very well in dull minds.
Hello, I enjoy binging your vids a lot, just a small correction. at 7:03 - it says all scholars of antiquity. The age of antiquity is of ancient history, the past middle ages and even prior. While most modern scholars do agree that there was a person named jesus but they don't know very much beyond that. For example there's good evidence based on roman record that the Josephus' record of 'Jesus' may be entirely different than the one described in the majority of mark. Some posit the liklihood of an amalgamation of multiple myths of different live figures. Anyways I'm high & your vids are fantastic!
It's also just not a "fact" it's just that it makes more sense that a hypothetical real figure Jesus existed. As far as historical figures go the evidence is pretty thin
I’m totally blown away by this incredible video. You are such a good communicator, and everything is well researched, and thought out and well presented. I’m so impressed. I love your intellectual approach and your ability to communicate things so thoroughly and intelligently. I have watched content and read books about the Mormon church for over 30 years and I think you do a better job communicating around the issues with Mormonism than anybody I have seen or read. Keep it up.
re: the speed of "translation": I always felt a little weird as a teen in seminary when they played up "no human could have produced this in this amount of time!" etc. because... yes people could. I can easily write 2,000-3,000 words of original fiction in a day, up to 10k if I spend a few hours on it. currently this would be a fairly weak first draft, but I'm practicing getting a full story outline in my head and fully expect I will be able to get to the point where I write a full novel in a month or two, spend a couple months editing, and have a publishable piece. and I already know of at least one author who can whip out a 4,000-ish word short story once a week who is making full-time income as an author. it's totally doable for someone with desire and motivation.
Your courage is fantastic. To shed light on this crooked organization, a cult that profits from the perpetuation of lies, at personal cost and risk; that's courage. Even turning away from the lie you once were exploited by is not easy. To take a step further and expose the lies, hence weakening their power to abuse and manipulate, that's compassion. The trolls have been annoying you ever since, I know. Good, they are bothered, that shows how you are making a difference!
When I read the book of Mormon (much to the annoyance of the missionaries that gave me a copy. Apparently they don’t count on people actually reading it, and they don’t actually really want you to read it. At least that was the impression I got.) the very obvious implication was that the land northward was North America and the land southward was South America, and the narrow neck of land was the isthmus of Panama. I mentioned this to them and they said that that’s not actually true, and then said basically what you just said. This struck me as very odd because as I say, it was very clear to me that that’s what the text meant. Had some friends who were archaeologists doing American Indian studies in the 70s and 80s and I also had a couple of friends who were American Indians (Lakota Sioux). The archaeologist told me several times that they did everything in their power, every legal means possible, to keep Mormons away from archaeological sites because they were notorious for trying to plant artifacts in order to ”prove” the book of Mormon and it was an enormous pain in the ass for them. And my sioux friends where are not at all amused by the occasional missionary that would come through and tell them that they were secretly Jewish. That was actually insulting because they are very very sensitive about people taking their identity away from them, usually under the guise of some “more realistic truth.” So telling an oppressed people that their entire history is false and what actually happened was…. Blah blah blah…. Oh, and also you got cursed by God and that’s why you’re dark.” Does not go over well. (incidentally that’s why I referred to American Indians as American Indians: Most of the American Indians I know have requested that I referred to them as American Indians. There are quite a few who prefer the name “indigenous.” Nowadays, but my American Indian friends vigorously detested the label “ native American” because (a) white people made it up without consulting them (b) it appeared to make them just another ethnic group like Italian Americans, or Irish Americans, which in their eyes diminished their prior claim and (c) a lot of them have, or had, a very close relationship with the name ‘Indian’ Including some folklore about the origins of the name, which is probably not true, but which is very important to their sense of identity. Actually, I think about it, that’s an interesting question : do Mormons have any kind of success converting American Indians?
Joseph Smith miraculously writing an impossible 8 pages per day is especially funny when you look at other author's writing paces. Stephen King averages closer to 10 per day, Robert E. Howard regularly wrote 10-20 pages per day. He's not even the most prolific cult leader who was into writing religious text; L Ron Hubbard of Scientology cranked out over 100,000 words a month at his writing peak; none of which included "it came to pass" either.
Plus it becomes even less miraculous when we consider that Smith did not actually even write parts of it...but just plagarized sections. There are about 15 pages of Isaiah plunged into the book as filler. Smith was desperately trying to fill the gaping hole left in the text caused by his losing 116 pages of it .
when you talk about the "map" of where the Book of Mormon takes place... I remember as a teenager being told it takes place in and around Panama, which is impossible when you consider the topography of the region, but they use that to be the narrow neck of land between the waters that seperated the land from the south and the land in the north.... only after leaving Mormonism did I learn about that Joseph was more likely placing the Book of Mormon in New York and Canada with that supposed narrow neck of land being Buffalo/Niagra Falls. But of course in both instances we fail to find the evidence of massive civilizations. the church itself seems to be leaning more into the messo american theory with what you see in official artwork, but when they do that it makes the story more implausible since it means that Moroni would have had to carry the gold plates all the way from central america to upstate new york so they could be buried where joseph would find them (rather than say buring them in Mexico and just having Joseph's "spirit" be bore in Mexico instead?) OR the Nephites and Lamanites would have had to have populated the enitrity of north and south America in about 400 years (which is very unlikely considering how long it took for the lands to be repopulated after smallpox decimated the native populations even with massive waves of migration during the colonial era) AND that the Lamanites would have had to have succeeded in wiping out two entire continents worth of people I remember as a teenager always thinking that it defied belief that all this could happen... but also feeling such pressure not to voice those questions or concerns that I was never able to talk about it with anyone
2:14 wait, ok, so if Native Americans were the supposed originators of this religion... why are they not revered by Mormons as God's chosen people? I always wondered this about Christians, too. Christians know that "god chose the israelites" as his holy people, but yet they don't see judaism as the one true religion for some reason? Religion is so weird and confusing. 🤦♀️
They were cursed with dark skin. And they killed all the white and delightsome people. Both groups were wicked, and the dark skinned lamenites were the tool for the destruction of the white skinned Nephites. This was because the Nephites were the chosen people, and they turned their back on the gospel. That is the Mormon explanation. I am a few decades out of date, but this was the explanation when I was growing up.
In another video Alyssa mentioned that Mormons believe that people with dark skin look that way because of their sins (or of their ancestors' sins), which is totally just racism. So they probably made up some sin for the Native Americans, to explain why their skin is dark.
I don't know about Mormons and Native Americans but for Christians Jews indeed are the chosen people. In the past antijudaism was rooted in the believe that Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus and by that refused salvation. But in modern times most Christian churches changed their stance. You can see this in the (weird) connection between evangelical Christians and Israel.
I appreciate the distinction made between the historicity of Book of Mormon and Bible. Although, I would add, that just because the scholars agree that Jesus is “real” it doesn’t mean that the accounts of his life are necessarily accurate.
Even his enemies said Jesus did his miracles through the power of Satan: they were eyewitness to them and didn't deny they happened, only said Jesus was using Satan's power. You're NOT in a position to judge the evens of Jesus' life.
@@jayvansickle7607or if Jesus was real to begin with, like completely fictional,an amalgamation of different people is what I've heard others describe
The accounts of his life can be largely accurate too, and if not for a handful of easily mythologised "miracles", it'd just be the life of a regular religious leader. The whole "son of god, died for our sins" thing is editorialising.
On the lack of archaeological evidence for the BoM, there is a very good institute for new world archaeology at BYU founded in the 1950's specifically to find such. The founder lost his faith and was eventually excommunicated over the complete lack of evidence. Since then the institute has become a very good secular archaeology institute and no longer even pretends to be looking of evidence for the BoM.
Latter-Day Saint Thomas Stuart Ferguson was the founder of BYU's archaeology division(New World Archaeological Foundation). NWAF was financed by the LDS church to find archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon. After many years of diligent effort, this is what Ferguson wrote in a letter about trying to dig up evidence for the Book of Mormon: "...you can't set the Book of Mormon geographically down anywhere-because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt - archaeology. I should say - what is in the ground will never confirm what is in the book."
As someone with creative writing experience, I can say with 90% confidence that I could complete a book of similar length and complexity to the Book of Mormon within the conservative timeframe for its writing - especially if I got to dictate it and literally draw entire sections from other works.
AG: I have viewed a few of your videos, I love your intellectual honesty, and that really gets some respect. I am not clear why leaving the world of Mormonism necessitated also leaving the world of real Christian faith, but I have seen that you offer a video on this and will see it soon. I am now subscribed, and watch with interest.
I really tried reading the book. It was curiosity, like when I read the Koran. In the BoM, about the millionth time I ran into the phrase "And it came to pass" I wanted to throw it across the room. It is so obviously based on the King James Version of the Bible. If Smith was translating "Reformed Egyptian" why didn't he translate it into what he knew as contemporary English? Since I couldn't finish it, what really was supposed to have happened to those Isrealites who came here? How did they disappear?
According to the story, which Mormons believe to be the actual truth, the Israelites who came to the Americas split into two factions called the Nephites (the righteous white good guys) and the Lamanites (the evil apostates who were “”cursed”” with dark skin), and that over the course of hundreds of years they warred on and off with each other until the last great battle (which coincidentally took place in what became Joseph Smith’s backyard) where the Lamanites completely wiped out the Nephites, claiming more lives in this one singular battle than the entirety of the American Civil War. They honestly believe that the Indigenous tribes of the Americas are the descendants of the Lamanites.
When I first came across the Book of Mormon, I didn’t know Mormonism was a „religion“. I read the synopsis and thought „ok cool, some dude made his own La Divina Commedia, but terrible“, then I found out people actually take this shit seriously and lost a lot of faith in humanity
I “leaned on” holland’s testimony of the Book of Mormon when I was a missionary and believing. He spoke with so much conviction that it convinced me. But once you scratch the surface and look into it even a bit….
His 'argument' is constructed on an obvious and transparent logical fallacy, and fails miserably. Circular reasoning, where the conclusion that you are trying to reach is assumed in the argument.
Ah yes, the Gold plates which nobody else saw translated from a mythical native language which he somehow converted into English “so that all the world can read them”. I’m so glad that God then gave everyone on earth the capacity to read his fluent English.
Jesus Christ is not just any person, He was and remains the sinless Son of the living God who has come to redeem you and I from the abyss of ourselves and of sin.He waits for you to come and receive true life, please know you are loved, and when the day arrives that you call out in faith, He shall be there,
@@DanBurress He's a monomyth character. Can you read conceptually? Lets see a Moses and Jesus parallel. Moses crossed the threshold of the Red Sea after leaving Pharaoh behind and spent forty years in the Desert. Jesus crossed the threshold at the Baptism leaving John behind and spent forty days in the wilderness. Do you process those for the spiritual concepts or simply read the analogs as historical? Here, an easier one. Jesus was called as only son of God, has supernatural powers, travels with hand selected disciples and instructs to seek the Kingdom of Heaven Within. King Arthur was called as the only one who could extract Excalibur, traveled with Merlin for supernatural powers, travels with and selected Knights and seeks the Holy Grail. We are all not so eager to worship a monomyth. Demanding tones from ignorance need to be called out. Jesus never said to worship him and he's got this. That was Paul. Idol worshiping Jesus without following his teachings is a shallow thing to do. It is all outside the narrow gate.
@@danielpaulson8838 I understand your examples, but I will testify of this: That ourSavior is the Son of the living God, who has died so that we may receive an eternal inheritance or eternal life if we accept that atonement that was on full display for us to believe,No salvation in any other, none!This testimony of both the Holy Bible and Book of Mormon, that Christ has come to deliver you and I from the grasp of sin is the sum total of their twin message.
Quetzalcoatl was almost certainly not thought of as "White" by the Pre-Columbian peoples of Mesoamerica. The myth of Quetzalcoatl has a "White God" originated in the period of the Spanish conquest, along with the whole story of the prophecy of his return. Quetzalcoatl when depicted has a Red and very often a Black face and body complete with a Red strip over the eyes. He is often shown with a beard, which is virtually always black, although in the legends he is sometimes given a beard of feathers. The "White God" and returning God mythos seems to be the creation of the conquest period, by both the traumatized Natives and the Spanish to explain the conquest and provide a supernatural explanation for it.
As someone who has been evangelizing towards LDS/Mormons for years, (and been asked to not return to 1 temple for asking the missionaries too many thinking questions), it is understandable you & many others who wake up to reality will become extremely skeptical towards if people & groups are telling you all the information & incredulous towards anything religious. It’s 100% understandable & expected. When you’re ready, perhaps you shall consider that Jewish carpenter you affirmed truly lived who- according to many atheist scholars- can be attested by a historical valid book, Luke, which recites the historical record of the Son of Man who performed true miracles. Understanding your purpose in life is no small ask, but a great blessing.
I just watched the film Heretics yesterday and it is majorly themed around Mormonism, questioning Mormonism and control/cultishness. If you do end up watching it, it would be really interesting to hear your take on it!
Great job Alyssa! Your one statement, in my humble opinion, proves your sincerity. You advised your readers to "do your own work and investigate. Research and make your own decisions as to what you CHOOSE to believe." It was not until my 60's that i discovered that the very people that had been grooming me since birth to believe in their spirituality and my soul, heaven, hell et al' were also in other provable situations dedicated liers. People that were proovably beyond any possibility of trust. So yes save your own life and make these important decisions for yourself. I appreciate what you are doing and i hope some of the young people hear you.
As a scientist, your take on stylometry and science is absolutely spot-on. You can have a hypothesis, but you’re trying to disprove this in science. If it withstands, it is accepted as a theory. You can never prove something, only accept it until more evidence suggests something else. A real scientist has to minimise confirmation bias.
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As an ex-mormon who works as an archaeologist in America, I honestly can not believe I once thought this stuff had any merit. There is sooooo much proof against the book. It is one of the worst pieces of literature, 100% fiction. It does so much damage in how members of the LDS church view Indigenous populations and science/history overall.
Someone said: at least if you go to the places mentioned in the Bible you find something 😁
@sciking8756 well, some of the places. Others simply never existed.
Amen to that. My American Indian friends were not amused by the assertions the Book of Mormon believes
@@mahatmarandy5977 joke, but kinda true. Most "indians" want to be known as Native American's. Only because people from Indian want that name. I'm native and really don't care... until you try to say I act like someone from Indian. 😅
I had a professor in college who was LDS. I have a Master's degree in History. He studied ancient Middle East and Persia. He was so knowledgeable in the field, spoke multiple languages and very fair and thorough in his work. We never discussed the America's in our classes and I never saw bias. I have no idea to this day how he taught us about the formation of Islam and was so open to discussion while believing that many of the people in the regions we discussed at some point crossed the Atlantic Ocean on long boats.
Joseph Smith was truly a miracle man, most magicians can only pull a rabbit out of a hat, he pulled out an entire cult and a business for centuries to come 😇
Cults really aren’t that hard to make… which is a little scary.
He really played the long game just to get some extra side action😄
I imagine it was the only possible way in the 1860s to 1) be poly and 2) still have a social group that didn't cast you out.
Granted, the rest of the world cast him out, which kind of proves the point, but he maintained a society that practically worshipped him anyway.
Well done 😂
enasan9406, The church would not stand today if it was what you are describing it to be. It would have failed some time ago.
My favorite part is how Joseph Smith conveniently never showed anyone else the gold plates. He just happened to have them memorized in their entirety.
That is just not true,the opening introduction to the Book of Mormon,gives the witness and testimony of 8 men who both saw and handled the plates themselves one by one.
@@DanBurress😅😅. What he means is he has signatures from people claiming they saw the gold plates..but they conveniently disappear right after this so called event. The man made prophecies that failed,.multiple times. I can.only imagine the mental gymnastics needed to overlook this blatant mark of a false prophet
@@DanBurress weren't they all related to him? And where are they now? (edit: I mean the plates)
James was the brother of the Savior, he saw, heard, and testified that Christ was Lord!
@@hanspecans The Prophet Joseph and uncounted legions of former saints, are directing the affairs of the Saviors church, under the Lord's direction.
“Chloroform in print” might be the harshest book review ever
Ha. I came here to say the same. Mark Twain was a genius.
I believe Mark Twain was being fair in his review, if you are having trouble sleeping this is the book 📚 to read. It'll put you to sleep for sure. The BoM-is so so boring!!!!!!!!
@@wellIdiditagain I have wasted so much of my life on this mid ass book. I even woke up at 5 am for seminary
My boy Samuel Clemens.
It’s such a biting review, and I love it 😂 He wrote about the Book of Mormon pretty extensively, you can read it here!
www.mrm.org/twain-bom
Something I will never forget is when I was 7, I picked up a prehistoric archaeology book and showed it to my dad. He scanned it for a bit, and towards the end there was a section on early man. He told me to never read past that part, and I obeyed.
Today I am 18, and the past 2-odd years of my life has been a nightmare of navigating how I perceive the world and (mentally, at least) leaving the mormon church. I was only 15 when I came across the ever iconic CES letter and as someone very, very interested in history and archaeology it took me years of careful consideration, hiding my thoughts, mental turmoil, research and notes, to come to the conclusion that the book of mormon is not true.
I really appreciate you making this video as it feels like a neat little tie around the package of everything ive come to learn. Although it was hard for me to hear first several years ago, now hearing aaalll the points and lies and inconsistencies within the church and its history is like listening to a song you never get tired of, its freeing and it motivates me to pursue the truth even further. Thank you Alyssa!!
Good luck to you in your journey. I think something divine has been nudging you toward an open, healthy, honest chapter of your life. 👍
"and towards the end there was a section on early man. He told me to never read past that part, and I obeyed."
And that's why they brainwash small children :(
As someone who didn't have religion forced on them as a child (I asked for it), the first thing I would have done (as soon as he was gone) would have been to read the bit he said not too ! LOL
Thank you for this comment 💙 “A song you never get tired of” really resonates with me, because little things like this really are healing. I hope you can continue to make your own new path. Thank you for watching :)
@@LisaNunlist”something divine” like Thoth, god of knowledge?
It’s nice to read about your experience, I congratulate you on your progress in finding truth and peace , I am 70, I left the church at 25 when they told me to deny my 2 year old daughter life saving medication and give them the money instead. I walked away , put this part of my life on a shelf. Present day, I am looking after my father with dementia, who hasn’t spoken to me in 50 years, now he wants my services and help. The problem is, dealing with him, brings to the present all my bad experiences, with the church and my upbringing, I can no longer address these issues with a sick old man, the emotional cost to me is an immense burden, affecting my health. So in conclusion, you have my admiration for your decision to resolve this lds crap and then throw it away and then start your life new and fresh away from this horrible cult.
People like to defend Joseph Smith’s polygamy and racism with the statement “That’s just how things were back then.” But if Joseph smith was truly a prophet of god, how do his actions align with the qualities expected of a prophet? Would a true prophet lead others into practices that cause harm or violate fundamental human rights? The Book of Mormon condemns polygamy, yet Joseph Smith engaged in it. How can someone be considered a prophet when they act in ways that contradict the teachings claimed to be from god?
Just do as I say, don't do as I do!
Mormons defend their "prophets" rather than know the God of the Bible.
@@mikeymike6047
Join the LDS church and be told to NOT research their history anymore.
Where is your basis for claiming christianity is the founder of monogamy
I mean, I agree it's Bad. Yet the Bible promoted Genecide, Slavery. God punished Davids new born with death and his wife with Public Graping due to his sin's. Paul continued to Promote slavery in the new testament. The Bible, just as the book of Norman, doesn't stand to modern human morality.
My father’s family is Mormon. By the time I was born, my father had already left. My grandparents were very devout and a couple of my uncles are still very devout. One of them is actually a Bishop for his ward. One thing that I have noticed, even from a young age, is just how DISINGENUOUS the kindness that was offered from them felt (except for from my grandparents). It always felt like they were only being kind or giving because they were COMMANDED to, not because they genuinely wanted to. If you need a “higher power” to scare you into doing nice things, then maybe you weren’t such a good person to begin with 🤷♀️
My sister is Mormon today. What you describe is a tactic of cult mind control. If you are interested in much more read this book: "Combating Cult Mind Control" Steven Hassan
That's so sad. There's probably tons of phonies in the church, but my experience was the opposite, which is why I was temporarily convinced that they were onto something. Those I got to know over several months seemed genuinely pure hearted, but it was a smaller area with fewer members. In a place like Utah, I'm sure I'd have been less easily convinced.
When Mitt Romney was running against Obama, many people of ‘faith’ were saying that Romney is better because he gave away 10% of his income to charity while Obama didn’t come close. They didn’t realized that as a Mormon, Romney is obliged to give 10% to his church. If you consider the Mormon church is a charity or not, I won’t argue.😊
Jesus commands us to do unto others as you would have then do unto you. That’s not even a Mormon teaching, it comes from the Bible read by Billions of people. Im so happy your family is striving to follow the teaching of Jesus Christ about being kind to others.
It actually makes perfect sense. The natural man is an enemy to God. Self control is unnatural, and needs to be practiced. Charity is unnatural, and needs to be practiced. I'm not sure the same can be said for the natural women.
I remeber reading it out of curiosity last year. It was one of the worst written books I've ever read, clearly a nineteenth century dude trying to sound like the King James Bible and failing miserably. Such a transparent scam, i thought.
I swear Brigham Young's smartest move and why Mormonism got as big as it did was moving everyone out to Utah, where generations of Mormons could grow up in isolation, never knowing any better.
Zinger!!!!!!!!😅😂🎉
"nineteenth century dude trying to sound like the King James Bible and failing miserably" - very well put.
Same. And it came to pass that I read the whole thing out of curiosity and maybe even hope. And it came to pass that I couldn't accept it
I read it as a teenager, in a Utah hotel room. It thought it read like really bad fiction in pseudo-King James Bible prose. Even then I thought, if Smith was inspired by God to translate an ancient language, why would it come out sounding like that? That’s not how people spoke in the 1800s, except perhaps itinerant preachers at a Religous Revival.
If you want great writing, you should stick to novels. Eye witnesses or journalists are rarely great writers. What I have discovered is that the Book of Mormon is unusually concise. When writing is a laborous process, very little gets written. Some writers of the Book of Mormon wrote less than a paragraph. The style of writing is Early Modern English, which some might misinterpret as biblical English, but this was an English far removed from Joseph Smith's education. It is likely he didn't know the dated meaning of some of the terms he used. The choice of Early Modern English actually dates the translation itself to the early 1600's. Joseph Smith translated by revelation; he never claimed to speak or read the Nephite language. I suggest that the actual translator knew both.
Mark Twain humorously remarked about the frequent use of the phrase "and it came to pass" in the Book of Mormon. He said: "If Joseph Smith had left out that ubiquitous phrase, the Book of Mormon would have been only a pamphlet."
Mark Twain was mistaken, his worldly mind, was not able to grasp what a treasure the Book of Mormon really is, as it testifies that Christ has come to rescue even Mark Twain, from the grasp of sin and gross darkness.
@DanBurress You are truly lost, and there is no light of truth within you. Your entire church is built on lies.
@@DanBurress lol what?
@@DanBurress Mark Twain was saying you can not rely on a false book for the truth.
What Joseph Smith actually prayed for:
"How can I get as many women and girls as possible. even if they're married?"
"Dear God, help me use my ability to lie to manipulate the people around me, specifically to get with as many women and children as possible."
@@alyssadgrenfell "Hallelujah Amen Sister! "
🤣
Don’t you mean preyed 😉
@@mommyofkittens4809good one🤣
@alyssadgrenfell 😂 The church does teach that anything is possible if you pray with sincere intent. And to be fair, Joseph Smith did get what he wanted, unfortunately.
I just want to say that I appreciate that you give current members of the church resources that are more faithful. It shows great respect.
When I was first questioning, “faithful” resources were still the only stuff I was willing to read. Ironically the faithful explanations of this type of subject matter still led me to ultimately choose to leave.
It's maybe not intentionally but it's also such a power move.
To say that they should look at all kinds of sources, including faithful ones, just shows that she is not afraid of people questioning her points as well. Contrary to church leaders who don't want members to look at unfaithful sources.
Honestly seems like a good way to get faithful members to also watch and listen to her video. Because they'll believe that when they look at church sources later they will find explanations for everything there.
My question is, do the higher ups in the Mormon church ACTUALLY believe this stuff, or do they make it seem that way so families keep paying tithing?
As someone who did not grow up in the church and became a convert all I can say is this. When I listen to you all I see is darkness, when I listen to the missionaries all I see is light. When I went to the temple I felt a peace that surpasses all understanding. So say what you like, Heavenly Father has shown me through the spirit the truth. When I have prayed for confirmation of the church I felt peace beyond all understanding, so say what you like this cannot be falsified.
@@user-emmaw ummm.. did you watch the video?
with enough booze and inbreeding you will believe anything
@@user-emmaw broo same, the church has given me such a sense of peace. she can describe her own experience but i know how i feel personally.
Feelings aren't facts.
I have ADHD and always had a hard time reading the Book of Mormon. I grew up in the church. My Dad would make my sibling and I read the book EVERY night for 20 minutes . I had a hard time staying focused and getting into it because I thought it was sooo boring, I would just pretend to read it and when my Dad would quiz us on it, I would just repeat what my other sibling would say. In sacrament I was always fidgeting and would constantly look at the clock, I couldn't wait for it to be over so I could get up and move my body! I stopped going when I turned 18. I used to feel so guilty for not going to church, But the thought of sitting for 3 hours ( Now it's 2 hours) killed me. It was sooo boring! Lol. Your channel has helped me not feel guilty anymore. You have helped me see the bigger picture. Thank you Alyssa! I am so grateful for you. Keep up the good work.
You need to get meds.
@@trinityc3579 I would have told you to see mormon stories but that is long form. What I do is start and just listen and stop when I can't any more and go back later
I like the God Loves Mormons (GLM) podcast because it’s short and digestible - you might enjoy that as well…not that you need convincing at this point. Congrats on your escape from Mormonism. Hope some of your family joined you in leaving.
We had to read it in a family circle, taking turns reading aloud. My brother and I used to make up random passages when it was our turn just to add to the interest level. We literally never got caught.
@@AprilFriday-de6vm My family would also do this too. Mostly during family home evening.
The term "Bible fan fiction" is so funny to me
It's funny because it's such an accurate descriptor 😂😂
@@alyssadgrenfellomg yes!
There is a lot of Bible fanfiction- the book of Judas, for example. They're an interesting perspective of how others saw and embraced the religion.
Wait-that means the Book of Mormon and Supernatural are in the same category!
Bible 2: electric boogaloo
Another point of reference is Thomas Stuart Ferguson, he was a true believing Mormon who was dedicated to proving the BOM true. The Church funded his work The New World Archeological Foundation. He spent nearly 25 years searching foe evidence for the BOM, at the end of the day he concluded the the book is fictional. I have a copy of a letter he sent to someone who made an inquiry about his work, he responded (in part) "what is in in the ground will never correspond to what is in the book because it's fictional"
They said that about my ancestors in Turkiye as well. Yet LD$ put otherwise in our family records with a wonderful facade of a fairytale and mission Pres.Booth
LET'S GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO NEW ALYSSA GRENFELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HELLLOOOOOO LETTTTSSS GOOOOOOOOO 💃🏼💃🏼💃🏼💃🏼💃🏼💃🏼
@@alyssadgrenfell
The Book of Mormon. I remember feeling so horrible as a young child when I accidentally let the words slip out of my mouth that another book was my favorite book, or saying “that is the truest thing ever written!” About something I agreed with or thought was funny. Of course someone would have heard me, and corrected me, saying “no, the Book of Mormon is the truest thing ever written”, or saying “well my favorite book is the Book of Mormon”, making me feel guilty.
I was also told that a scripture a day keeps the devil away, after I had sleep paralysis for the first time, and was horrified of going to sleep again because I through demons were attacking me and would possess me. So I started reading the Book of Mormon every day. I was told many times that the scriptures would make you feel peaceful, but really, whenever I read them, I’d feel anxious, and have a stomach ache because I felt like everything I was reading was wrong. That made me feel like there was something wrong with me. I’m glad to be out of this church
You would like theramintrees
There are sooooooooooooo many errors with the Book of Mormon.
Such as:
-written in Egyptian ( 1 Nephi 1:2)
-Messiah being mentioned by name BEFORE He is born ( 2 Nephi 25:20)
-NOT divinely inspired ( Jarom 1:1 & Omni 1:1!!!!!!)
-called "christians" in 73 B.C. ( Alma 46:15)
-Messiah will be born in JERUSALEM ( Alma 7:10)
-returns to "day of judges" ( Helaman 4:17)
-prayer quoted from MEMORY ( 3 Nephi 13:9-13)
-too amazing to be true ( 4 Nephi 1:32-33)
-the problem of Mormon theology ( Moroni 4:3)
-and MANY other problems
The hard part is HOW to talk to Mormons in a productive manner- without "tarring their book up" up one side and down the other.
Do you want to join true Christians in the Holy War?
0:49 Mormons do everything tearfully 😂
lol
In retrospect, I'm embarrassed that I spent most of my life believing The Book of Mormon to be literally true. If that's what you grow up with though, it just seems normal.
Completely agree! But I honestly feel that such efforts were made to convince us it was LITERALLY TRUE that it feels like it was impossible to see it any other way.
Screen door by rich Mullins
Nothing to be ashamed of, when you get raised in a religion it’s beliefs become second nature to you, you should be proud you are out, stay strong
You don't know what you don't know, so don't be embarassed about it
I stayed in the church two decades after I already knew it couldn't possibly be literally true, and knew that the church itself softened it's own language about the historicity of the book of mormon.
The argument goes, it's about as true as the bible, which also is demonstrably not literally true. The universe is 13.7 billion years old, so even if you devoutly believe the bible, you can't believe it's literal and believe facts at the same time.
Finding value in faith and community when it's essentially myth is hard. It broke down when I couldn't be part of the community anymore.
Honestly the Book of Mormon is so insulting to Indigenous communities across America and the tens of thousands of years of their history which is well-documented.
As a Native American, this book is so outrageous in many of its claims. On our reservation many of our teachers were Mormon, it makes sense to me now some of the soft racism I felt
As a indigenous individual & female, being raised in this cult I always felt like I was less than even a second class citizen. I'm out of this cult now & much happier, without all the lies & judgement.
it's so chilling to me how much effort they put into advancing this part of their belief as well. extremely creepy and colonialist
The intellectual DRIVEL Mor(m)onism is based on was HUGELY POPULAR at the time of Joe Smiff's change to scamming people with religion, after he'd been nearly JAILED for his "Gold of the Lost Tribes and Indians" in Pennsylvania, but got out because they told him, "You can go to jail, or you can go back where you came from!" ..., which were the Burned Over Districts of NY ..., which, by themselves were Burned Over because of the HUGE number of Christian Based SCAMS at the time!!
Many native Americans are members and trace their family history in the church back to the days of Joseph Smith. There are Native American books and legends that match well with the Book of Mormon. Chief Midegah is a prominent youtube voice for the Book of Mormon. ruclips.net/video/VvQ70KGClI0/видео.html&ab_channel=ZionMedia
I wish I had watched this video as Mexican who just encountered a young Mormon missionary while shopping in Toluca. I think is funny they want to link our ancient Aztec serpent god. We still have indigenous tribes living here that don’t even associate with Christianity, yet they want to say this is proof. The condescending nature of Mormons with natives is confusing, why you would want people in your church you don’t like ?
It is extremely insulting how the Mormons try to steal the history of various people as their own.
17:33 I love how you customized your text by crossing out 'son' and writing 'daughter'. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it feels like a tiny little rebellion in the misogynistic culture you were experiencing.
Awww I didn’t even notice that 🥹 yeah, I think I tried to make room to see myself in scripture, even if scripture doesn’t really ever include women.
@@alyssadgrenfell honestly, the idea that god had to be a man was something that always bothered me growing up catholic, nowadays even though I don't fully believe, I still replace "him" with "her" as an act of rebellion myself 🙈😔
I used to prefer "they" re: a non binary diety...
Mormom theology assigns gender specifically however, as there is implied a divine "mother" god (or several, god is polygamous in mormonism).
@@kewlkatnat Reminds me of me and my sister as kids singing the German national anthem and changing the lyrics from brother/father to sister/mother.
So we sang "Unity and Justice and Freedom For the German Motherland - After these let us all strive Sisterly with heart and hand".
We just thought we were so cool, rebellious and clever for that.
@@alyssadgrenfellwhen I was younger, I know I heard the sisterhood being told to "liken the scriptures unto" themselves as well.
If they can control the kinds of rebellion you can do, then they can continue to control the narrative.
it’s also interesting that they said that they spoke reformed Egyptian when the language of the israelites was ancient hebrew or aramaic depending on when they are said to have migrated
Exactly. My mind went, why any type of Egyptian language and not Aramaic...make it make a little sense.
Exactly. So why Egyptian? Because there was a huge trend of fascination with Egypt at the time! The history just tattles on itself
@@WitchOracleAlso because at the time translating Egyptian was thought impossible, the news of the Rosetta Stone being discovered hadn’t reach the Americas yet
@@Aure457 true! I think the mystique of the "unknowable" language probably ties in to the Egyptomania of the early 19th century as well
Wrote, not spoke, but yes, because then only JS could claim to be able to read it.
My favorite part is that the angel is named Moroni. It’s the funniest possible name.
Joseph Smith originally named them the twin angels Duhm and Dumher. But his editor suggested a name slightly less obviously mocking.
😂😂😂
Moroni is an Egyptian name, which means ''faithful''
because anyone who believed that bs was a MORON! How did you NOT get it???
idk Those Golden cows on the steeple of each temple say a lot ! Oh wait that is Moroni !!! lmao
I'm an ex-mo from Mexico, and here it's wild. There are trips to archeological sites like Teotihuacan organized by the church, and they give guided trips with the point of view and explanation of how's related to mormonism. Some stuff they say is like, "Look how similar is the clothes of the Atlantes de Tula to the temple clothes."
Those trips are for members, but of course, they might use them as proselitism to people who aren't mormon.
It is absolutely disgusting how the Mormons attempt to steal the history of others.
ugh that’s revolting
what's an ex-mo, you should try to practice your English a bit better.
Listening to Alyssa trying to explain the Book, it’s like listening to Trump answering the question on how he was going to lower child care cost in America. 🤔
wow. i’m not even 1/3 through yet, but this video is already SO thorough, well researched, well organized, and honestly respectful. As a Christian, one of my favorite sayings is “A faith not worth investigating is not worth having” ❤
and her voice is beautiful, also the hair and outfit and the eyes
Genuine question, as an athiest.
If you need to investigate, doesn't that remove the necessity for faith and belief, since neither require evidence?
@@HomoLegalMedic I think you have a misunderstanding of faith and belief in Christianity. Let's take a boat for example. I show that I have faith/trust/belief in the boat by actually getting into it and pushing off from shore. It doesn't matter if I looked it over first, watched others safely cruising around in it, or researched how a boat works. Fundamentally I still demonstrate faith when I am actually relying on the boat to keep me alive.
Christianity teaches that we are saved by the object of our faith, not the amount of our faith. I could blindly and quickly get into a boat that is full of holes. Sure, that might seem like really good faith because it came without questioning, but that faith and trust won't actually save me because the boat is shoddy. Contrast that with someone who sat on the shore for weeks watching a good boat's performance. Maybe they spent time looking it over, testing it out, talking to people who had been on it etc. Even if at the end of all that they got in the boat trembling with fear, their weak and meager faith would still save them from drowning because the boat itself is trustworthy.
True Christianity welcomes questioning and investigation because it is watertight so to speak. Ultimately, though, you need to make a decision whether or not you're going to hop in, run away, or just keep hanging around the dock talking about the boat (or religion) and pretending like you really believe in it, all the while never really having true faith.
Hope that helps!!
@@HomoLegalMedic just giving my opinion, faith and evidence can and SHOULD coexist. For example I am a Christian (never been a Mormon) but I was agnostic until my early twenties. Having evidence provided in the Bible that is proved true by science, having ACTUAL history and historical figures in the Bible, and seeing how the life of Jesus would have played out in his time and society are all things that reinforce my faith, personally. But other people might say exactly what you’re saying: you shouldn’t need evidence if you have faith. It’s an individual preference but if you ask me, I like Alyssa’s mantra of informed consent; you should know the truth behind the religion that you’re signing up for. You deserve at least that much.
@katschneidermusic6745 faith and evidence can't coexist. Faith, by definition, doesn't require evidence and is therefore either useless or can't coexist with evidence. Either there is evidence and you don't need faith, or you gave faith and don't need evidence.
I am an non believer. I have read many books. To then decide that ONE of those books is 'the absolute truth' is a completely foreign concept to me. I am literally unable to understand the thought process behind such a decision. Books contain many truths, and also many fantasies, that is kind of the point of books... or am I being too simplistic now?
I love how the golden plates are in a three hole binder in the like clip! Moroni had xerox!
A replica of what the plates would have been like was made with lead sheets, similar in weight and consistency to gold. It was on display for a time in the Tanners Utah lighthouse mission. The book weighs many tens of pounds and is quite fragile. It is totally impractical for it to have been passed down as a continuous historic record for hundreds of years.
@@ronjones4069Yet, we have manuscripts of other “fragile” materials that have been passed down. I feel like gold would have been more “practical” than papyrus and scrolls.
@@TheHcjfctceasier to move around and store papyrus scrolls than heavy metal plates bro
I live 1 hour from hill cumorrah. Nothing there but farms and trees. No battle ever happened there except the battle of boredom
Not to mention the fact that ZERO tribes of New York have any stories of such a battle or people fitting the description of the so-called participants.
That is because it did not occur there silly.
Sounds like the battle of Schrute farms. That's some serius shit.
What!!! No sword ⚔️ of Laban ??
@@MelTiedermann-wy1pc
I read somewhere that Smith and others claimed that there are wagon LOTS of plates and treasure in that hill.
Thank you for posting this. The fact that Mitt Romney went to Harvard Business School and Harvard Law School concurrently and made top grades in both schools and still believes in Mormonism shows how powerful childhood conditioning is.
24:32 It's a shame how BYU gets used to science-wash the church. I recently found out that a great academic resource I use was originally housed at BYU, but the professor in charge had to evacuate the project from BYU and quit teaching because administrators were trying to interfere with the project‽ With that and some of the questionable "peer-reviewed" papers that come out of BYU, it really makes me wonder how much scientific progress has been set back by them essentially serving the church above all else
Me, a Mayan person, realizing the Book of Mormon is sloppy cultural appropriation of my culture
Same for other tribes and the Israelites.
That would be harder if Mayans hadn't claimed to be Israelites in their history "Los Titulos de los Senores de Totonicapan". It would also be harder if the cross wasn't a major piece of their iconography, and if they didn't have legends of a bearded white god who would return one day.
@@robertrosskopf4641Quetzalcoatl was a feathered snake
@@robertrosskopf4641 You need to go back and research your claims more properly. The MAYANS never claimed they were Israelites, Europeans had a misconception that they WERE part of the Lost Tribes of Israel. You are literally trying to blame the Mayans for something they didn't believe and push on them the beliefs of the European Colonizers. Mayans never claimed that, the Europeans claimed that based on misconceptions.
Watching Alyssa's content as a non-Mormon, I've been trying to put my finger on why I find the story of the Mormon's to be so interesting. One theory I have is that there is this strange contrast between the idea of a group of people who seem really gullible but who also very kind, friendly, neighborly, and enthusiastic about what they believe on one hand, versus these things such as repression, groupthink, and polygamy that are really dark on the other hand....
To me the most obvious thing that sets off my BS meter is “reformed Egyptian”. Why would people from Jerusalem be speaking Egyptian? We have a decent number of surviving texts, including holy texts, from 2000+ years ago. Most early surviving Jewish and early Christian texts were in Aramaic, Greek, and Old Hebrew. Even the Egyptians themselves were very Hellenized by ~2000 years ago and a lot of the elites (who were the only ones reading and writing) would have spoke Greek or Latin.
The only way this makes sense is if you consider that it was written by a guy who didn’t know much about history or geography and just knew Jerusalem was somewhere kinda near Egypt.
It was hard to fact check back then, but it isn’t now.
‘Scuse me, what is. a “holy text”? Full of holes? Sounds apt!
Smith and his contemporaries were aware that ancient Jews spoke Hebrew. He chose “reformed Egyptian” based on the widespread belief at the time that Egyptian Hieroglyphs represented an abstract form of communication rather than a language. If you read the “translation” of Egyptian Hieroglyphs attempted by Athanasius Kircher, you can see this in action. He wrote a multi-paragraph, biblically inspired translation of an Egyptian obelisk in Rome which he called Obeliscus Pamphilius.
The hieroglyphs themselves say “Horus, strong bull, beloved of Maat.” He translated:
“To the triform Divinity Hemptha - first Mind, motor of all things, second Mind, craftsman, pantamorphic Spirit - Triune Divinity, eternal, having no beginning or end, Origin of the secondary Gods, which, diffused out of the Monad as from a certain apex into the breadth of the mundane pyramid, confers its goodness first to the intellectual world of the Genies, who, under the Guardian Ruler of the Southern Choir and through swift, effective and resolute followers Genies who partake in no simple or material substance, communicate their participated virtue and power to the lower World...” (Keep in mind that this entire paragraph supposedly came from like 5 symbols.)
Smith would not have known about the Rosetta Stone yet, and so he thought he could “translate” Egyptian as much as he wanted and get away with it. See also his horrific “translation” of the Book of Abraham, which was actually a collection of Egyptian funerary texts.
My mom's cousin was a professor of Anthropology at BYU. He was one of those who traveled around seeking evidence to support Mormon history. He worked on some cool digs, but obviously he never found what he was looking for.
One thing that stands out immediately is that even if all religions are wrong, the Torah, Bible, and Quran are ancient texts, so they have some cultural basis in society. They were written and sounded like the eras they originated from.
Joseph Smith wrote like no one spoke at the time the text was created. "Verily I say unto thee!" That's the era of a King James translation, not Joseph Smith's era. The Book of Morman is completely out of place in time, which automatically throws up red flags!
Like you, I also served a Mormon mission. After 55 years in the Mormon Church, I’m continuing as a missionary but I’m now testifying that the church is NOT TRUE! I’m thankful for my time as a sister missionary because that experience taught me how to testify of truth-or the truth as I knew it then. Now, thanks to the internet and more importantly the voice of God, I now can testify boldly that I was deceived by the corrupt Mormon Church and warn others to beware of the corporation of the president. Keep up the excellent work you amazing missionary woman! 🎉
Thank you! I am a Christian here to learn so I can slowly talk with my friends that are under the lies of the LDS church.
@@tianarhastings8372 Honey, if you're still calling yourself Christian you have your own lies to talk through. Worry about you.
The Italian Giacomo Casanova once wrote:
“Trust no one who reads only one book.”
This was in the 18th century, many decades before the Book of Mormon.
Props to you for not only finding your way out, but trying to help others do the same. Religion is truly a virus of the mind that preys on the most earnest qualities of human beings.
I spoke with a missionary who said "Why read the Bible when I have the Book of Mormon to read instead?" He admitted that he's never read the Bible all the way through, there's still sections of the Bible he's never read. But he has read the BOM cover to cover many times. Because it's just "better". They really throw the Bible under the bus.
Modern day marcionites 😁
@@sciking8756At least Marcionites worshipped Jesus as God and respected the NT. Mormons are worse than Marcionites
They really throw the Bible under the bus. That comment is so true. And it's done because if you really read all the Bible you would see how much better IT is.
it’s a terrible book.
@@deniseeulert2503 obviously. because whether you are a Christian or not, you have to admit that the Bible is based on real facts, historical places, real people and real events. Most of the Bible is concrete history (unlike the BOM)
The Jesus = Quetzalcoatl connection is as old as Catholic attempts to convert the natives of Mexico lmao. Hardly an original thought in their heads.
I left the church over 30 years ago. Only since discovering your channel have I taken it upon myself to check whether many of my favorite "Bible verses" existed outside of the JST version.
Spoiler alert: almost none of them did. A few weren't even in the JST version of the Bible. They were quotes from the Book of Mormon.
Fortunately, when I left the church, I swore off all organized religion, so I didn't have to endure a second crisis of faith.
These days, I simply focus on being the kindest, most loving, and forgiving version of myself that I can possibly be.
ayo i mean you're still being christlike 💪💪
As a teenager I became a born again Christian based solely on the idea that "if so many people believe it, it has to be true". I was so naive. Turns out it is very easy to get large numbers of people to believe things.
So easy. So true.
Even as a believer, there is an intrinsic problem there because there are several major religions with different beliefs (not even other Christian denominations: Islam, Judaism, Buddism, Induism etc) with millions of followers each. We all have those moments of "how could I believe this".
that is basically the argument that there are lots of idiots, therefore it must be true.
@louiscyfer6944 The idiots are people defending their intelligence, which ultimately comes from nonintelligence.
I consider myself a Christian, but there is a lot of problems in Christianity I try my best not to look down on anybody because I am far from perfect. I make mistakes every day so I don't have a right to judge anybody I don't care how anybody lives their life.
As an ex Mormon I never saw the hype of the Book of Mormon. Everyone raved about how great it was but… ehh? It makes sense now that I don’t believe it’s divine anymore.
I genuinely think that most Mormons haven't actually read The Book or Mormon cover to cover. Most of them just read certain sections and skip over the boring parts. Maybe 10% of the book is actually interesting at all imo.
Edit: of course tbf, the same could be said about most Christians and the Bible.
It is such a BORING book to read, but I always felt guilty I didn't love the Book of Mormon more.
@@alyssadgrenfellAlyssa...have you read The Book of Jeraneck yet? It's even worse than the B.O.M.
The Book of Jereneck is suposedly a record of the ancient people of The British Isles.
The Jereneckites are our home grown version of mormonism here in The U.K.🇬🇧
@@Themanyfacesofegodo you know a place you can read it? I’ve been curious about it for awhile but it’s been hard to find.
@saulwoolsey9801 Hi there mate. If you type in Restored Branch of Jesus Christ Matthew Gill, you can find everything.
I once chatted to Matthew and he seemed the nicest person. An angel left the plates for the Book of Jeraneck on his front door step apparently!
This channel just keeps getting better.
I am getting out now and I am in my mid 40’s. Wish I had done it long ago. Frustrating for me that I believed this for so long and paid so much. Thanks though to my wife leading the way out and at least we have saved our kids from being trapped.
CongrTs on leaving. Leaving religion is a tough battle. Took me ten years to leave christianity, despite all the silliness and nonsense surrounding the belief.
@ thanks for inspiring those of us just now making the move.
@@Deconstructingmormon You are welcome.
I'll pray for your family ❤️
I’m right there with you. I called it quits at 41. There are so many things I wish could have happened differently in my life.
I remember when I was a university student I was approached by missionaries on the street, and I had this one missionary yelling at me that the Book of Mormon was the 'Word of God'. I asked him how and all he could say was that "He could feel it in his bones and breath" which is really a load of bs and gaslighting...The fact that I was a young teenager, and I had a hard time saying 'No' I decided to cave in to see what this guy was talking about. I decided to give them my number, and looking back the biggest mistake was giving them those details.
Keep in mind I was very well versed in the bible as I'm an ex Catholic now and I've read many versions of the bible. I've also read the Whole New Testament and the majority of the Old Testament for sure.
I agreed upon a time to meet, and we met at the church these delusional people have on campus so they can bother and prey on university students with the hopes of converting them to their cult ...
We got straight to business, and I brought my bible with me asking the missionaries the hardest questions I felt about the Christian faith and most importantly the occultism behind Mormonism. We spoke for like 30 minutes and most importantly I asked about the fact that Joseph Smith was a 33rd degree Freemason meaning he was a Scottish Rite Inspector General within a SECRET SOCIETY when in Luke 8:17 (KJV) it states that "For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad". I thought it was very weird for a man to profess being a person of God, and yet belonged to a secret society and engaging in secret activities behind the scene.
The missionary just dodged my question, and told me to pray to God. I could feel this person was just reading off a script and not having a genuine authentic conversation with me. Vibes dont lie, and I inferred that it was pretty obvious. They prayed in front of me trying very hard to appear pious, and asked if I would join before hand twice to which I declined.
It never felt like I was having a conversation with two people. It was rather with an organized religion with it's own set of formal structure, hierarchy, official doctrine, beliefs, rituals etc. and this person was simply regurgitating what some other person told him. Which is why I left the Catholic faith
Whats very disrespectful was that he gave me homework, and told me to start reading chapters in the book. After that they set another appointment with me.
Before I left the building I pretended to agree with the appointment date, and put on a fake smile as they were being disingenuous with me so I didn't see a problem in doing that. I shook their hands, and stated "I would see them next week" to which the missionary responded "We'll see you next week ________, and don't forget your homework".
After I left the building I made a promise to myself that I won't do that again, and I would never speak to the missionaries. Whats crazy is that a months and even 2 years down the road they wouldn't stop harrasing me even though I made it super clear I wasn't interested. It was only until I got a text from a different missionary if "You've heard of missionaries from the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints?" to which I responded "Yes I have, and I dont believe in organized delusion." that I never heard from them again. Now I can breathe a sigh of relief lol.
poor you, a sectarian anti-catholic, making your ignorance the occasion of your pride...
“Organized Delusion”! I love that! It’s brilliant!
My father, an atheist with a fervent dislike of organised religions - possibly because of his experiences during the Great Depression and during WWII - once invited two 'missionaries' in to the house for a discussion. Looking back, I feel rather sorry for them, as the three hours they spent in his company must have been the hardest test of their faith they had ever had to experience. They left exhausted and subdued. Dad felt rather proud of himself, though Mother told him never, ever to do it again, as she'd had to delay the evening meal.
@@NoName-ur2vs you definitely had those young men at a disadvantage. You a well read college student with an insane amount of biblical knowledge. Them a couple of kids pushed into their little box and just following the words that they were taught. They stood no chance! But the system is effective. They're more like extremely resilient door to door salesmen than actual religious representatives.
Ah yes the good old distrust of Freemasonry from Roman Catholics 😁
I am an ex JW and understand how hard it was to escape that absurd ideology and group of fallacious claims. Good for you 🙌🥳, welcome to the enlightenment.
I've probably heard a lot of this before, but I'm seated with my popcorn again like im watching a good remake of a film.
It's definitely a summary, I feel like apologists have proven you can re-litigate every tiny centimeter of this conversation, so you can really go off into left felid if you're not careful.
@@alyssadgrenfellWait, an American who uses the metric system?
@@0000-z4z We use both but mostly imperial, centimeters are definitely used
@@alyssadgrenfell "so you can really go off into left felid if you're not careful."
Or the Malay Peninsula. I don't think the Old World models would work either, but they present completely different problems from the New World models.
"why lie about the face in the hat situation?" just an absolutely absurd question to have to ask of a corporation that stole money and hope from me as a child. Sheesh, feckin ridiculous
Joseph Smith looked at the names of places in the surrounding region, including Ontario, and slightly altered them to create the names in the Book of Mormon. Some examples include:
Alma (Valley of Alma) - possibly derived from Alma, Ontario
Antrim (Antum) - possibly derived from Antrim, Ontario
Boaz - possibly derived from Boaz, Ontario
Connor (Comner) - possibly derived from Connor, Ontario
Ephrem (Ephraim, Hill) - possibly derived from Ephraim, Ontario
Hellam (Helam) - possibly derived from Hellam, Ontario
Jacobugath (Jacobsburg) - possibly derived from Jacobugath, Ontario
Jerusalem - possibly derived from Jerusalem, Ontario
Jordan - possibly derived from Jordan, Ontario
Lehi - possibly derived from Lehigh, Ontario
Moroni - possibly derived from Monroe, Ontario
Morianton - possibly derived from Moraviantown, Ontario
Noah (Land of Noah) - possibly derived from Noah Lakes, Ontario
Onidah - possibly derived from Oneida Castle, Ontario
Omner (Omer) - possibly derived from Omer, Ontario
Ripliancum (Ripple Lake) - possibly derived from Ripliancum, Ontario
Sidom (Sodom) - possibly derived from Sidom, Ontario
Shilom (Shiloh) - possibly derived from Shiloh, Ontario
If the word Mormon is a slur to the church why do they still call it the Book of Mormon
Mind. Blown. Holy cow. Coming soon: "The Book of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" since it's not a mouthful already.
The word "Mormon" isn't a slur. It's the name of a great prophet who compiled the writings of other prophets into a book. Hence, it is the book that Mormon wrote, or The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
@ But I thought that according to the LDS Church it wasn’t Mormon who wrote the book, but it was God who sent the book to Joseph Smith? Correct me if I’m wrong but wouldn’t that suggest the Book of Mormon was written and not translated?
@@Machtynthere are members that claim it as a slur equivalent to the n word.
@@LaurenxOtt I will give you a correction. If you read the book, the introduction page explains the book. According to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, The Book of Mormon is a book compiled by the prophet Mormon, who also added his own commentary. He then gave it to his son, also a prophet, Moroni, who completed the last bit of the book and placed it in the ground. Where Joseph Smith later found it through the assistance of Moroni, now an angel. Joseph used revelation both through the Seer Stones and direct revelation to translate the "Reformed Egyptian" writings into English.
The Church has never stated that it was "God who sent the book to Joseph Smith." If it had, it would be incredibly easy to show that the Church had fallen away from its written word that states the above in the title pages, in the testimony pages, in the books of Nephi 1, Nephi 2, Mosiah, Helaman, Mormon, and Moroni, and Joseph Smith's own written words, etc.
The thing you mentioned about anachronisms later in the video really threw me back to when I was in a christian elementary school and involved with the church as a kid, because they did the same thing. I would notice something that didn't check out and they would be like "oh they didn't mean that, that's just how they translated it to make it make more sense to us" but them of course I started wondering, wait what else did they just decide to translate differently? really makes you lose faith in, at the very least, the accuracy of the book, since i guess they can just translate things however they feel is best. I understand localization to an extent but you's think for something as important as a religious text they would want to be as accurate as possible lol
I agree on the major point though. The historical fiction that is the Catholic, Ethiopian, Orthodox, or Protestant Bibles at least have historical places, times, and events.
babe wake up, new alyssa grenfell video just dropped
Fun fact: there are passages of Isaiah in the Book of Mormon that hadn’t *been written yet* at the time the BoM claims it was taken from Jerusalem with Lehi.
And don't forget the errors that were in the 1769 version of the King James Bible that ended up in the book of Mormon, The Lord sure works in strange ways don't he?
Oh, you're spot on with the apologetics doing more harm than the actual doubt. I was much better off with an unanswered question than a ludicrous explanation.
I know indoctrination is a powerful force, but for the life of me, I cannot understand how anyone could possibly believe this stuff as an adult.
That 56:10 description of Joseph Smith crafting the book of mormon is almost the EXACT way I described him to my (then friend) husband when I was first leaving the church 8 years ago. wow! Keep up with the great work!
This honestly boggles my mind. I’ve never been Mormon or interested in any type of religion. I was raised Christian, but turned atheist at 10 because I didn’t believe any of that. I found your channel after watching Heretic and saw your Heretic review and watched a few of your other videos. I am a new sub and I’m really glad that I watched this video. Soooooo many inconsistencies I don’t understand how people believe. The whole time I was just like wtf this doesn’t make any sense…. How do soooo many people blindly believe because they were born into the church, and how have older people in the church still believe? I would love to debate someone in the church. I’ve gone down a Mormon rabbit hole since watching Heretic. Obviously I was aware of the religion before Heretic, but after watching the movie it did spark my interest again. My fiancé surprised me with Book of Mormon tickets for February in Long Beach. I’ve never seen a musical before, but I heard it’s written by the guys who made South Park and I just rewatched their Mormon episode and I am so down to watch it and have it be my first musical.
If I was being extremely generous to Joseph Smith, I could see him using a lot of Psychedelics which would have been freely available in the area he grew up. While using a lot of them myself I have seen "Golden plates" with writing on them when I close my eyes, and sometimes even entire pages of text that I recognized, and could make out the words of (Although in my case, this was a diner menu from earlier that day).
Oh wow I wonder if that is what was going on.
@@Yaseyeh The Word of Wisdom notably does not prohibit "Herbs, plants and roots" - "every herb in the season thereof...all these to be used in prudence and thanksgiving."
Schizophrenic fevers and manipulative behavior disorder was his jam. He was a rapist. Creepy. Now a days , we would run from someone like that.
I saw flying rolls of parchment/scrolls with glowing text in every different language
Lord of the Rings is fantasy? I'm crushed.
It might be. However, it's infinitely more likely and much, much better written. And, a much more 'moral' mythology than the B of M.
One of the most easily debunkable Cults.
As someone's whose has made a life goal of reading the scriptures of every religion, I can confidently say that the BoM is, by far, the most boring. Which is a shame as it has an interesting story and ideas...just that writing...WHY DID HE HAVE TO TRANSLATE/"TRANSLATE" (DEPENDING ON YOUR POV) IT INTO KING-JAMES-STYLE ENGLISH?
If you can find it, there used to be a podcast called My Book of Mormon, where someone reads the entire book for the first time out loud and does funny commentary about how absurd it is. That's probably a good way to go if you want to read it and also be entertained.
Also, I think it's funny how the BOM has the exact errors that a King James Bible would've had circa 1830.
I like the comment
Am on self journey of comparative religions
Fascinating
What I never understood is how people can look at the size of the Book of Mormon & the amount of words it contains, then think "Yeah, all that could fit on *GOLDEN PLATES!"*
I mean, did Joseph Smith carry back an entire carriage convoy of golden tablets? Think of how many pieces of paper it took to fit all the words, let alone pieces of metal with the words inscribed on them!
And he apparently put them in a hat & translated with a "seer stone?" How did he hide so many metal tablets from Martin Harris & where did he store them all?
And where are these plates now? Has anyone ever seen them?
@@celestehowell4128the claim is the plates were taken back by the angel or some such convenient BS.
The claim is 1) they were written in the "reformed Egyptian", ie compact language.
and 2) he didn't use the plates anyway, just the hat. no plates were even present most of the time.
If its Gods work. Do we not believe God to be powerful beyond our mortal understanding. And so we will not understand all things.
The stone in the hat didn't require the plates. So why come up with this story of golden plates? Because it sounds better because JS was treasure hunter. Look at how the Koran was transcribed with no physical objects.
10:00 He thinks that sounding "old-timey" makes him sound authentic, just like Joseph Smith and his King James style speech in the 1800s. "In these our times..., heretofore unknown text..., such persons, elect or otherwise..." 🙄 Also, millions of people believe that they voted correctly in the last election.
Never go full face in a hat
😭😭😂
The Mormon church recently ( some months ago) started showing off the "peep-stone" that Jospeh Smith used to "translate" the so-called "Gold Plates".
How insulting is it to purport that those who do not believe in the Book of Mormon are somehow less intelligent, less intellectually curious and capable than the tiny percentage of humans who wish to be a part of the LDS Church?
It's called 'othering', aka 'dehumanising'. A feature of just about all organised religions. The Catholic Church, during the colonisation of Middle and South America used this argument as a way of justifying the genocide. But it wasn't just the Catholic church. There are many historical instances of similar acts being perpetrated by other sects and denominations.
@ Oh I know. Still hate it.
It's evolutionary tribal behavior. Pre-demonize everyone who believes something else so you believe you are more important than them. It's an idiots process but works very well in dull minds.
Hello, I enjoy binging your vids a lot, just a small correction. at 7:03 - it says all scholars of antiquity. The age of antiquity is of ancient history, the past middle ages and even prior. While most modern scholars do agree that there was a person named jesus but they don't know very much beyond that. For example there's good evidence based on roman record that the Josephus' record of 'Jesus' may be entirely different than the one described in the majority of mark. Some posit the liklihood of an amalgamation of multiple myths of different live figures. Anyways I'm high & your vids are fantastic!
It's also just not a "fact" it's just that it makes more sense that a hypothetical real figure Jesus existed. As far as historical figures go the evidence is pretty thin
Buckle up Gentiles Alyssa is about to bring that knowledge!!!
The old-timey 3-ring binder gets me every time...
Joseph Smith was on the lam from criminal charges basically his entire adult life. It would not be unjust to call him a career criminal.
I’m totally blown away by this incredible video. You are such a good communicator, and everything is well researched, and thought out and well presented. I’m so impressed. I love your intellectual approach and your ability to communicate things so thoroughly and intelligently. I have watched content and read books about the Mormon church for over 30 years and I think you do a better job communicating around the issues with Mormonism than anybody I have seen or read. Keep it up.
I’m just gonna imagine that Joseph Smith used a fuzzy purple floral-print hat to translate the Book of Mormon from now on
re: the speed of "translation": I always felt a little weird as a teen in seminary when they played up "no human could have produced this in this amount of time!" etc. because... yes people could. I can easily write 2,000-3,000 words of original fiction in a day, up to 10k if I spend a few hours on it. currently this would be a fairly weak first draft, but I'm practicing getting a full story outline in my head and fully expect I will be able to get to the point where I write a full novel in a month or two, spend a couple months editing, and have a publishable piece. and I already know of at least one author who can whip out a 4,000-ish word short story once a week who is making full-time income as an author. it's totally doable for someone with desire and motivation.
Your courage is fantastic. To shed light on this crooked organization, a cult that profits from the perpetuation of lies, at personal cost and risk; that's courage. Even turning away from the lie you once were exploited by is not easy. To take a step further and expose the lies, hence weakening their power to abuse and manipulate, that's compassion.
The trolls have been annoying you ever since, I know. Good, they are bothered, that shows how you are making a difference!
When I read the book of Mormon (much to the annoyance of the missionaries that gave me a copy. Apparently they don’t count on people actually reading it, and they don’t actually really want you to read it. At least that was the impression I got.) the very obvious implication was that the land northward was North America and the land southward was South America, and the narrow neck of land was the isthmus of Panama. I mentioned this to them and they said that that’s not actually true, and then said basically what you just said. This struck me as very odd because as I say, it was very clear to me that that’s what the text meant.
Had some friends who were archaeologists doing American Indian studies in the 70s and 80s and I also had a couple of friends who were American Indians (Lakota Sioux). The archaeologist told me several times that they did everything in their power, every legal means possible, to keep Mormons away from archaeological sites because they were notorious for trying to plant artifacts in order to ”prove” the book of Mormon and it was an enormous pain in the ass for them. And my sioux friends where are not at all amused by the occasional missionary that would come through and tell them that they were secretly Jewish. That was actually insulting because they are very very sensitive about people taking their identity away from them, usually under the guise of some “more realistic truth.” So telling an oppressed people that their entire history is false and what actually happened was…. Blah blah blah…. Oh, and also you got cursed by God and that’s why you’re dark.” Does not go over well.
(incidentally that’s why I referred to American Indians as American Indians: Most of the American Indians I know have requested that I referred to them as American Indians. There are quite a few who prefer the name “indigenous.” Nowadays, but my American Indian friends vigorously detested the label “ native American” because (a) white people made it up without consulting them (b) it appeared to make them just another ethnic group like Italian Americans, or Irish Americans, which in their eyes diminished their prior claim and (c) a lot of them have, or had, a very close relationship with the name ‘Indian’ Including some folklore about the origins of the name, which is probably not true, but which is very important to their sense of identity.
Actually, I think about it, that’s an interesting question : do Mormons have any kind of success converting American Indians?
Joseph Smith miraculously writing an impossible 8 pages per day is especially funny when you look at other author's writing paces. Stephen King averages closer to 10 per day, Robert E. Howard regularly wrote 10-20 pages per day. He's not even the most prolific cult leader who was into writing religious text; L Ron Hubbard of Scientology cranked out over 100,000 words a month at his writing peak; none of which included "it came to pass" either.
Plus it becomes even less miraculous when we consider that Smith did not actually even write parts of it...but just plagarized sections. There are about 15 pages of Isaiah plunged into
the book as filler. Smith was
desperately trying to fill the
gaping hole left in the text
caused by his losing 116
pages of it .
If the Divine Comedy is the gold standard of Holy Bible fanfiction, then the Book of Mormon is the trashy kind written by an amateur.
The standardized written Italian is largely based on the Divine Comedy, while the LDS church is based on the Book of Mormon
Exactly, it is a bigger display of influence to create a language than to only create a religion
So Book of Mormon is basically 50 shades of grey?
I always thought the Quran was the gold standard of Bible fan fiction.
when you talk about the "map" of where the Book of Mormon takes place... I remember as a teenager being told it takes place in and around Panama, which is impossible when you consider the topography of the region, but they use that to be the narrow neck of land between the waters that seperated the land from the south and the land in the north....
only after leaving Mormonism did I learn about that Joseph was more likely placing the Book of Mormon in New York and Canada with that supposed narrow neck of land being Buffalo/Niagra Falls. But of course in both instances we fail to find the evidence of massive civilizations.
the church itself seems to be leaning more into the messo american theory with what you see in official artwork, but when they do that it makes the story more implausible since it means that Moroni would have had to carry the gold plates all the way from central america to upstate new york so they could be buried where joseph would find them (rather than say buring them in Mexico and just having Joseph's "spirit" be bore in Mexico instead?) OR the Nephites and Lamanites would have had to have populated the enitrity of north and south America in about 400 years (which is very unlikely considering how long it took for the lands to be repopulated after smallpox decimated the native populations even with massive waves of migration during the colonial era) AND that the Lamanites would have had to have succeeded in wiping out two entire continents worth of people
I remember as a teenager always thinking that it defied belief that all this could happen... but also feeling such pressure not to voice those questions or concerns that I was never able to talk about it with anyone
I love how the university of utah does literally everything in its power to distance itself from Mormonism
2:14 wait, ok, so if Native Americans were the supposed originators of this religion... why are they not revered by Mormons as God's chosen people? I always wondered this about Christians, too. Christians know that "god chose the israelites" as his holy people, but yet they don't see judaism as the one true religion for some reason? Religion is so weird and confusing. 🤦♀️
They were cursed with dark skin. And they killed all the white and delightsome people. Both groups were wicked, and the dark skinned lamenites were the tool for the destruction of the white skinned Nephites. This was because the Nephites were the chosen people, and they turned their back on the gospel. That is the Mormon explanation. I am a few decades out of date, but this was the explanation when I was growing up.
In another video Alyssa mentioned that Mormons believe that people with dark skin look that way because of their sins (or of their ancestors' sins), which is totally just racism. So they probably made up some sin for the Native Americans, to explain why their skin is dark.
Religion is a fun game of claiming you're better but also not talking too much shit about the other religions to avoid a full on war.
@zoeb3573 perfectly stated👏
I don't know about Mormons and Native Americans but for Christians Jews indeed are the chosen people. In the past antijudaism was rooted in the believe that Jews were responsible for the death of Jesus and by that refused salvation. But in modern times most Christian churches changed their stance. You can see this in the (weird) connection between evangelical Christians and Israel.
I appreciate the distinction made between the historicity of Book of Mormon and Bible.
Although, I would add, that just because the scholars agree that Jesus is “real” it doesn’t mean that the accounts of his life are necessarily accurate.
Even his enemies said Jesus did his miracles through the power of Satan: they were eyewitness to them and didn't deny they happened, only said Jesus was using Satan's power.
You're NOT in a position to judge the evens of Jesus' life.
@ you have to assume that the accounts are accurate to begin with.
@@jayvansickle7607or if Jesus was real to begin with, like completely fictional,an amalgamation of different people is what I've heard others describe
The bible is as bad, christian scholars say jesus was real but they have zero record outside the bible
The accounts of his life can be largely accurate too, and if not for a handful of easily mythologised "miracles", it'd just be the life of a regular religious leader. The whole "son of god, died for our sins" thing is editorialising.
On the lack of archaeological evidence for the BoM, there is a very good institute for new world archaeology at BYU founded in the 1950's specifically to find such. The founder lost his faith and was eventually excommunicated over the complete lack of evidence. Since then the institute has become a very good secular archaeology institute and no longer even pretends to be looking of evidence for the BoM.
Latter-Day Saint Thomas Stuart Ferguson was the founder of BYU's archaeology division(New World Archaeological Foundation). NWAF was financed by the LDS church to find archaeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon. After many years of diligent effort, this is what Ferguson wrote in a letter about trying to dig up evidence for the Book of Mormon: "...you can't set the Book of Mormon geographically down anywhere-because it is fictional and will never meet the requirements of the dirt - archaeology. I should say - what is in the ground will never confirm what is in the book."
As someone with creative writing experience, I can say with 90% confidence that I could complete a book of similar length and complexity to the Book of Mormon within the conservative timeframe for its writing - especially if I got to dictate it and literally draw entire sections from other works.
Linguists can prove he copied mistranslations of biblical English in the Bible in his alleged "translation" from the Golden Plates
AG: I have viewed a few of your videos, I love your intellectual honesty, and that really gets some respect. I am not clear why leaving the world of Mormonism necessitated also leaving the world of real Christian faith, but I have seen that you offer a video on this and will see it soon. I am now subscribed, and watch with interest.
43:39 "Full Face-In-Hat" is my new Drinking the Koolaid, which is a phrase that should be phased out anyway
Besides, it was Flavor-Aid.
I really tried reading the book. It was curiosity, like when I read the Koran. In the BoM, about the millionth time I ran into the phrase "And it came to pass" I wanted to throw it across the room. It is so obviously based on the King James Version of the Bible. If Smith was translating "Reformed Egyptian" why didn't he translate it into what he knew as contemporary English?
Since I couldn't finish it, what really was supposed to have happened to those Isrealites who came here? How did they disappear?
A very important point that is rarely mentioned. He wrote his BoM into the wrong language, obviously to mimic the KJV Bible.
According to the story, which Mormons believe to be the actual truth, the Israelites who came to the Americas split into two factions called the Nephites (the righteous white good guys) and the Lamanites (the evil apostates who were “”cursed”” with dark skin), and that over the course of hundreds of years they warred on and off with each other until the last great battle (which coincidentally took place in what became Joseph Smith’s backyard) where the Lamanites completely wiped out the Nephites, claiming more lives in this one singular battle than the entirety of the American Civil War. They honestly believe that the Indigenous tribes of the Americas are the descendants of the Lamanites.
@@skywalkerchick Thanks for the info. I guess God didn't stand with the good guys there, did he?
@@deniseeulert2503 just like all those failed crusades
@@skywalkerchickThat assumes the crusaders were consistently the good guys, which many agree they were not.
When I first came across the Book of Mormon, I didn’t know Mormonism was a „religion“. I read the synopsis and thought „ok cool, some dude made his own La Divina Commedia, but terrible“, then I found out people actually take this shit seriously and lost a lot of faith in humanity
You don't have to prove it's false. They have to prove it's true.
I “leaned on” holland’s testimony of the Book of Mormon when I was a missionary and believing. He spoke with so much conviction that it convinced me. But once you scratch the surface and look into it even a bit….
Holland is a master of psychological manipulation
His 'argument' is constructed on an obvious and transparent logical fallacy, and fails miserably. Circular reasoning, where the conclusion that you are trying to reach is assumed in the argument.
Ah yes, the Gold plates which nobody else saw translated from a mythical native language which he somehow converted into English “so that all the world can read them”. I’m so glad that God then gave everyone on earth the capacity to read his fluent English.
The bloke named Jesus in his afterlife: "I promise I had NOTHING to do with ANY of this."
Do you mean that character from that other fictional book?
Jesus Christ is not just any person, He was and remains the sinless Son of the living God who has come to redeem you and I from the abyss of ourselves and of sin.He waits for you to come and receive true life, please know you are loved, and when the day arrives that you call out in faith, He shall be there,
@@DanBurress He's a monomyth character. Can you read conceptually? Lets see a Moses and Jesus parallel.
Moses crossed the threshold of the Red Sea after leaving Pharaoh behind and spent forty years in the Desert.
Jesus crossed the threshold at the Baptism leaving John behind and spent forty days in the wilderness.
Do you process those for the spiritual concepts or simply read the analogs as historical? Here, an easier one.
Jesus was called as only son of God, has supernatural powers, travels with hand selected disciples and instructs to seek the Kingdom of Heaven Within.
King Arthur was called as the only one who could extract Excalibur, traveled with Merlin for supernatural powers, travels with and selected Knights and seeks the Holy Grail.
We are all not so eager to worship a monomyth. Demanding tones from ignorance need to be called out.
Jesus never said to worship him and he's got this. That was Paul. Idol worshiping Jesus without following his teachings is a shallow thing to do. It is all outside the narrow gate.
@@danielpaulson8838 I understand your examples, but I will testify of this: That ourSavior is the Son of the living God, who has died so that we may receive an eternal inheritance or eternal life if we accept that atonement that was on full display for us to believe,No salvation in any other, none!This testimony of both the Holy Bible and Book of Mormon, that Christ has come to deliver you and I from the grasp of sin is the sum total of their twin message.
Quetzalcoatl was almost certainly not thought of as "White" by the Pre-Columbian peoples of Mesoamerica. The myth of Quetzalcoatl has a "White God" originated in the period of the Spanish conquest, along with the whole story of the prophecy of his return.
Quetzalcoatl when depicted has a Red and very often a Black face and body complete with a Red strip over the eyes. He is often shown with a beard, which is virtually always black, although in the legends he is sometimes given a beard of feathers.
The "White God" and returning God mythos seems to be the creation of the conquest period, by both the traumatized Natives and the Spanish to explain the conquest and provide a supernatural explanation for it.
As someone who has been evangelizing towards LDS/Mormons for years, (and been asked to not return to 1 temple for asking the missionaries too many thinking questions), it is understandable you & many others who wake up to reality will become extremely skeptical towards if people & groups are telling you all the information & incredulous towards anything religious. It’s 100% understandable & expected.
When you’re ready, perhaps you shall consider that Jewish carpenter you affirmed truly lived who- according to many atheist scholars- can be attested by a historical valid book, Luke, which recites the historical record of the Son of Man who performed true miracles. Understanding your purpose in life is no small ask, but a great blessing.
I just watched the film Heretics yesterday and it is majorly themed around Mormonism, questioning Mormonism and control/cultishness. If you do end up watching it, it would be really interesting to hear your take on it!
Great job Alyssa! Your one statement, in my humble opinion, proves your sincerity. You advised your readers to "do your own work and investigate. Research and make your own decisions as to what you CHOOSE to believe." It was not until my 60's that i discovered that the very people that had been grooming me since birth to believe in their spirituality and my soul, heaven, hell et al' were also in other provable situations dedicated liers. People that were proovably beyond any possibility of trust. So yes save your own life and make these important decisions for yourself.
I appreciate what you are doing and i hope some of the young people hear you.
As a scientist, your take on stylometry and science is absolutely spot-on. You can have a hypothesis, but you’re trying to disprove this in science. If it withstands, it is accepted as a theory. You can never prove something, only accept it until more evidence suggests something else. A real scientist has to minimise confirmation bias.
The truth is a Mormon's worst enemy.
arpik, the enemy is satan.
@talaiasimoli1114 Agreed. --Satan "loves" the Mormon belief system.
The truth is any supernaturalist's enemy. Abrahmics cannot tolerate it.