And later he has a Exeggutor or Exeggcute before you have access to the Fushia route, meaning he has access to routes we don't have access too. So his claim of 40 is fairly likely as he could have pokemon that are from the later cities.
@@TheLastSane1sadly people need in-game presented evidence of him capturing those Pokémon because word of mouth just isn't enough. So this will likely never go away but it may slightly quiet down.
Or Blue isn't limited to game mechanics like you the player, meaning Blue or Gary can catch all version exclusives and able to evolve his Pokémon without trading and access to more than evolution stones
The fact that the rival was able to successfully annoy a huge chunk of the fan base and live rent free in there heads for over 20 years is very fitting. "smell ya later"
Gary’s Pokemon *Rival sprite* of the OG game, manages to do what he uniquely is meant to do, annoy & frustrate people who play 🤣😂 What a well-made- perhaps “perfect” written character! 😂😅
You forget he is lying because he not have a full party, i got all 151 pokemon before fighting second gym since was a cheat back then to get the pokemon you wanted to spawn at level 10 including mew it don't matter if it possible not having a full team means he is a liar.
I didn't realise that I was only supposed to trade with my friends once, and not as often as we felt like. In-game trade is not the same as the trading mechanics in the game. Those in-game trades aren't offered until after you have a badge. The trading system can be used the moment you get the Pokedex. It's like no one in these comments section has actually played a Pokemon game other than Pokemon Go.....
The entire point of the 'I got 40 Pokémon' line is that the rival is always meant to be one step ahead of you. So, I think it's perfectly fitting for the player to only just barely not be able to reach that number (without trading, excessive grinding, etc.)
It's also just natural language use to round up... People tend to round up and round to round numbers. If the max was legitimately 15 and he said 40, that'd be one thing.... But someone getting 36 and saying 40 is natural language use. Everyone does that.
Also important. You get the SS Anne ticket from Bill. Blue... just got one. Maybe he got it from Professor Oak or something, but, it's just one example of him having access to things you otherwise wouldn't. For all we know, he was able to get past the guards into Celadon and take the train to Goldenrod, and your peasant ass doesn't even know a train exists.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 Yea I think Blue just... bought that ticket. And Red is just a little stupid, and never thought to buy one. He put all his smarts into training, so he has none left to, idk, walk around a tiny bush. And that is why we, as a player, are limited in our movement.
Your rival is canonically ahead of you the entire game. Therefore you get all the left overs. He easily could have gotten way more stones, trades, fossils and accessed routes before Snorlax got there. Likely your rival has at least 4 moon stones, both fossils and got the trades since he declined them.
he cannonically went to fuchsia before snorlax blocked the routes since when you fight him in the pokemon tower he has an exeggcute which is only found in the safari zone and by this point snorlax is still blocking the path that leads there
@@depotheose7890 Yeah, he's really ruthless. First he catches the last Snorlax in route 3, although they are clearly under conversation and then he littered it somewhere on the street while he was travelling.
I think this is the best argument, maybe there were 6 moonstones, he took 4 and left you only 2, maybe there were a dozen trades, he took 10 and left you 2. Throw in some of the other arguments like having access to fishing rods earlier (who's to say he had never left Pallet Town before setting off on his adventure) and if he is rich, who's to say he didn't buy some off people too, you can buy pokemon from shops so it makes sense you can buy privately too. 40 definitely seems reasonable.
He's not even restricted to Kanto Pokémon. When you meet him on the SS Anne he greets you with "Bonjour", and we know from X and Y he learned "Bonjour" while studying in Kalos. He just came back from Kalos via the SS Anne and probably couldn't bring the Kalos Pokémon into Kanto because they'd crash the game er I mean for legal reasons (he just came back from studying in Kalos?? How long has it been since we saw him on Nugget Bridge??)
@@danieldutoit2187 I'm glad you got time to figure out imaginary story characters and where they been imaginarily in the game. That must mean you found all the missing children that were taken from their parents a few years ago right you know every single one of them went you know where the government took them to? If not I wouldn't be to proud to be an adult talking about an imaginary scenario for a child's video game.
@@JesusIsKing1991. Okay. What? Playing two games and noticing a common word showing up in regards to the same character is somehow on par with unmasking a government child abduction conspiracy? What?
I always found this discussion a bit pointless. We battle Blue in the Pokémon Tower, where he has an Exeggcute, at a point where the roads to Fuschia are blocked by Snorlax. But he has already been there and obtained a Pokémon that can only be caught in the Safari Zone. This means that he either got that traded to him (which means he can get 40 Pokémon by trading a bunch just like we trade for Mr. Mime), or he accessed routes and cities before we can. Which means he can literally have gone anywhere to get those 40 Pokémon and the possibilities are endless.
@@somechupacabrawithinternet8866 thats what causes problems. how did he get around the snorlax without waking it up? did he do a damn triple jump like mario or something?
Blue obviously went over to Lavender and Fuschia before the Snorlax went to sleep on the pier. The Snorlax was clearly only recently asleep since the passenger on the SS Anne felt it was worth proclaiming as news. The only reason we run back into him in Lavender is because he was grieving his dead Raticate. Then, the only other time we face him is when there's a big mob terrorist event in the Silph Co, but by then he could already be all across the Kanto region and just flew back to check out the commotion.
I'd also make the argument that, as the professor's grandson, he'd have much better resources. The anime shows him as being wealthy, so it'd make sense that he'd have fishing rods from the start, adding several additional Pokémon to his dex count.
Also it’s clear that he’s ahead of us as we travel through the world. Who knows how many moon stones he picked up before we got there, how many trades he made before we had the opportunity, etc.
The "trades only being usable once" argument also works against the player: maybe the rival did some trades before the player so the player doesn't have access to them anymore.
I think so too, because whenever I got to that point in the game, 40 sounded like a ridiculous number to me. I didn't even realize it was a plausible number until I watched Droomish's video about this (my main takeaway watching his video wasn't even "the rival is a liar", it was "wait, 40 is actually possible??")
More like it's a number that's barely doable, but not realistic under normal circumstances (You'd need to go out of your way to catch everything, which without a guide would be hard to do, AND you'd need to grind your extras a lot, which most people wouldn't), so that he's ahead of you, like a good rival should.
Yeah that's what I always thought too. Like they are telling you "you could have encountered 40 Pokemon by now" like the oaks assistants are telling you that you should have at least that many Pokemon by now.
@@rroadagain2810while the number is technically true, it's clear that the dialogue exists to pressure the player to into the collectible aspect of the game. It is not a coincidence that that is also what the developers heavily monetized by setting up artificial barriers (trades, different versions, etc). That was the name of the game back in the day a la proto gacha. Even zelda did it with Oracle of Ages and Seasons.
Okay you're dumb Gary and blue are different people 🤦 this was established years ago there's even a series about it where red and blue go on a pokemon journey 🤦
He also could have done trades, met Pokémon salesmen and collected stones that the player can't access because the rival already did/took them. Adding rules to it based on what is available to the player like how many trades there are don't really make sense to me because he's travelling ahead of us, anything we can see is what he left behind.
I'd like to point out that since he never said he had 40 unique Pokemon, as JRose pointed out, he could have pulled an Ash and caught a bunch of Tauros. He never offered to show us his Pokedex afterall... 😂
Something to keep in mind, the world as we see it is how it is AFTER the rival passed through already. He very easily could've taken npc trades that are inaccessible to us, because he took them already, and we never knew of them because they were gone by the time we got there.
And he could have friends to trade with, something probably lacking for those too concerned about whether or not it was possible for him to have 40 mons by Vermilion.
Yep. And Arcanine is version exclusive Red and he has that on his non charmander teams, so 50/50 chance he traded for that as well. And if he has trading, he could have gotten a pokemon with cut, which opens up more of the region for him.
@@starmangalaxy2001 I think it's just that NPCs aren't bound to game encounters. How did the guy get a Farfetch'd if you can't catch them anywhere in Kanto? How does that other guy have a Mr. Mime when it also can't be caught anywhere in Kanto? Where did Oak get the starters from if the only ones in the entire region are his and the like 3 other random trainers who have one?
@@GoodHunter9 clearly they're one-time encounters like the snorlax and legendaries ( and, technically, the ghost marowak ) and the npcs just got to 'em before you did it is funny to think about, though, that stuff like farfetch'd and lapras are hinted at to be trade / gift only because they're endangered species, yet then there's ones like mr. mime, jynx, and lickitung that are randomly trade-only despite having zero indication of being even all that rare
@@hi-i-am-atan I think it's best to just accept it as video game shenanigans. I've always assumed that stuff like Mr. Mime is common in places we as the player never visit, and Blue probably went to some of those places.
I never liked how this challenge just outright bans trading. It's such a central mechanic that even Blue/Green does it to get an Alakazam. Plus this video proves that he has the version exclusives since in all games if you traded over you would have it.
@hostergaard Semantics. No one differentiates their traded and caught Pokemon when they're talking about creating a living dex. Esp wheb talking about trade only Pokemon, which Gary has. Alakazam? And in Pokemon Blue, if he doesn't have Charizard he uses Arcanine...which is exclusive to Red and unobtainable by the player. So there's evidence he did indeed trade. And the implication is that he's referring to the Pokemon in the Pokedex, he mentions catching 40 after asking to see your Pokedex to prove how many you caught. Beyond that, as JRose said, he never explicitly said they were all different. He could have caught ten Rattata for all we know and is counting that. So overall, entirely possible for him to have 40.
Its very possible the Rival traded with other people, found more Moonstones, had a fishing rod. These options alone, even in Red/Blue, are more than enough to bring him at 40. And MAYBE he was a bit lying, and had 38, 36, 3x, and like all kids do, just made himself try to look a bit cooler. Thats the real answer.
I think that Blue was stretching the truth a little. Also, I don't buy the Raticate death theory. He just benched his Raticate or let it stay at Oak's or his sisters.
he has a growlithe, regardless of game version. that alone is proof that he isnt limited to in game version exclusives. also, as people mentioned above, in later battles he has pokemon that he couldnt catch because they are located in places locked to the player at the time. literaly proving him capable of getting them regardless of what the player has access to.
I always thought this was a way for the writers to show how kids lie with their imaginations. Like the kind of people that claimed their dad works at Nintendo. Gary is a jerk, so why would he not lie?
@@dontcensormebro3217 , he's also a spoiled rich braggart that wouldn't have a problem using money to get ahead of you and then boast about being better. So why should he lie? It works both ways.
I think this is what makes the line so great. If it's your first playthrough, chances are he'll be one step ahead of you with that claim. On subsequent playthroughs you'll have all the knowledge of where to get pokemon and how to evolve them, so you'll be able to match that claim; it's now a benchmark instead of an impossibility. The only thing that Gamefreak should have done to truly solidify this is to add a check for your dex and have additional dialogue if you met that 40 pokemon threshold.
Always found that funny cause like... I have beat you EVERY time I've met you. Why are you still so damn sure of yourself!? How many times do I have to teach you this lesson!?
Just think We didn't get invited to the SS Anne, Bill gave us his ticket because he was busy fixing his fursuit, Blue was just there. Either he was invited, Oak gave him his, or he found some totally unrelated person and got their ticket.
ok but if we start venturing in that direction then why even try to prove anything rationally? if he's going on different routes and has uncles that get him places then whats to say his cousin doesnt own a private jet that he used to fly to alola and catch 200 pokemon there? when you start delving into made-up what-ifs like this then there's literally no point in the exercise of counting every single possible pokemon he could have gotten because then why stop at 48? maybe he found a treasure chest with a thousand full pokeballs in it. either you take the game at face value and the rival is lying (extremely in-character and more rational than "he has a second charmander he raised to level 36") or you just start writing fan fiction where anything could happen
@@jayr.9884 All of that is more sensible than assuming he must obey every law of the game you do, even when assuming as such is completely ridiculous. It's significantly more likely for Blue to be able to pull on pre-existing connections and wealth he has, than it is that he is limited to cloning the moonstones you can pick up, so you both have the same number. It's significantly more likely that version exclusives do not exist in the world, because other trainers are absolutely able to aquire these pokemon you can't get in your version, the proof being that they have them. It's significantly more likely to assume that he can just find more pokemon than you can on routes, because we have seen that these routes have different pokemon on them based on route, generation, time of day, ect, than it is to assume your encounter table is a 100% accurate, unchanging ecological survey. This stuff isn't baseless either. Blue HAS an Arcanine on his non-Charizard teams even when Growlithe isn't in your version. Blue HAS an Alakazam, when you can find nobody in the region willing to trade you their Kadabra. Blue HAS an Exegcute in Pokemon Tower, before you can possibly catch one, if he was bound to following the same routing you are. We KNOW Blue beats Surge's gym without getting Cut from the captain, meaning he either got it somewhere else, or has another way around the gym. We KNOW he has gotten to places that require HMs, yet none of his pokemon have them to use them in battle, meaning either he has more pokemon he isn't battling with, he has ways around needing them, or has access to a Move Deleter that we don't. Blue HAS a level 16 Raticate, suggesting that either he found a place he can catch those, or he's just a better pokemon trainer so can get Rattata to evolve earlier than you can, or that enemy levels take into account things like their current exhaustion, meaning his teams may well actually be higher level than they look when you fight them, because he isn't actively looking for you to pick fights. None of this is wild, baseless speculation, like Blue has found Seath's Elf Key and made it to Tseldora, and caught the Prowling Magus, defeated Freja, evolved his Kadabra by using the Paledrake Soul on it, and used her silk to climb over the tree to Surge's gym. This is just acknowledging the possibilities and explanations for things THAT WE SEE, that prove his event sequencing is different than ours. We have no reason to doubt Blue; at no point does he lie or mislead the player, and he repeatedly shows that he has access to things we the player do not. A world in which Blue does not have access to things the player does not, lies about having access to things the player does not, yet has access to things the player does not is more strange than one where he has access to things the player does not, and tells the player he has access to things the player does not, because Blue has never displayed any other symptoms of dissasociative personality disorder, but does display symptoms of having things we don't. What exactly these methods of access are, we don't know. But we know he has them. There IS speculation in thinking about how, but this is mostly guided along lines of least unreasonability. Assuming Blue was able to get to the Safari Zone before the Snorlax got there, or else knew a way around it is less unlikely than Blue going to wizard school three years ago, and remembering his headmaster gave him an exegcute and told him to keep it hidden until he reached Lavender Town. The goal should be to reduce the explanations to as few common threads as possible, and to make these threads are as close to reasonable as we can muster, based on the information we DO have, and it's less of a stretch to assume he's either more resourceful, or has more connections because of his grandpa, than it is to assume he's a wizard.
@@Pershath08 i'm not trying to argue about specifics i'm saying that the entire thought exercise breaks down and becomes pointless when you start introducing that stuff. "is it possible for blue to have 40 pokemon under these specific circumstances" is a quantifiable and worthwhile experiment and "what if blue opened a wormhole to the pokeball dimension and got a billion pokemon" or "what if blue had a supersonic jet to travel straight to fuchia city" are not. because when you start saying "blue could have a boat" then the answer to how many pokemon blue has changes from 40 (or whatever) to 151. he just has them all at that point.
As a Kanto pioneer back in the day, I have some thoughts regarding Gary's Pokedex: -Gary is wealthy. He could very well have more access to other tools and items, like the Super Rod that help him catch more pokemon -While Gary did not get Cut from the Captain, he supposedly got it from somewhere. See the above point. He also could have traded for a Pokemon with Cut, and perhaps Fly too -The mechanics of fly are dependent on the trainer's experience, not the flying pokemon in question. It takes you to places you have been before. Maybe Gary has already visited Fuschia and Celadon? -For that matter, we do know that Gary visits all the Gyms before we do. Presumably Vermillion's too. Perhaps he even had it done before you could cut the brush - Gary trades for at least 1 pokemon later, 2 depending on if he has Charizard or not. Maybe he trades for some others? Some that you just don't get access to? -Why would he not use stronger pokemon on his team? Ones he has to trade for or level up to catch? Maybe he just doesn't feel like it -Gary, as an NPC, isn't limited to the same mechanics the player is. He actually lives in the world. -Gary does move places faster than the player. Maybe he got to Fuschia before Snorlax got there? -Theory, but Kanto has a 'Living Pokedex', lorewise. Any place a pokemon is available, all forms of those pokemon are available. So any place you could catch Pidgey, you would also have a very tiny chance to catch Pidgeot, etc. So maybe he could've actually CAUGHT 40 kinds outright, as text suggests -There are still some pokemon Gary may not be able to acquire, because they are not CATCHABLE. Mr. Mime, Farfetchd, Jynx, fossils, etc. -Breaking the entire theory, if you assume that all of the other regions and pokemon retroactively existed all this time, then maybe Gary has some non-Kanto pokemon in his collection, like Marill or Steelix?
And his grandpa is the inventor of the Pokédex and a professor so he could just be more talented than red too which is how I think of that line from a writing standpoint
Super Rod was my first thought. With a level 20 cap that would give him poliwag, goldeen, tentacool, krabby, psyduck, and shellder; I think. And trading of course. There might only be 2 npcs that offer us trades, but if Gary is going around offering trades to all the npcs then there could be more that accept.
@@RibbitRibbit25 Agreed. My thought is that Gary either didn't meet those particular people and complete the trades, or he had moved on before they wanted to trade. Plausibly it is quite possible he met and had other trades before we got there.
There is also implication in the original games that Gary/Rival starts off with a bike. which is part of how he gets around faster than you do. This could potentially give him access to areas you do not have access to.
@Quandry1 i considered that angle. In the anime, it takes Ash a few weeks to reach Vermillion, baring in mind he takes a few detours. Gary meanwhile had a car. He probably made it to Cerulean before Ash even had his first badge.
Also why does everyone forget Rival 2 dialogue? during rival 2 he says that he filled out some of his pokedex entry and everything thanks to Bill. to quote "Hey, guess what? I went to Bill's and got him to show me his rare Pokémon! That added a lot of pages to my Pokédex! After all, Bill's world famous as a PokéManiac! He invented the Pokémon Storage System on PC! Since you're using his system, go thank him! Well, I better go rolling! Smell ya later!" who's to say he didn't trade them over to show off the pokedex pages Bill even offers to show you his pokemon and MC flat out says no.
No one reads game dialogue. lol But good catch. Considering he waited until the SS Anne to say the line, he may have used those entries to make it easier to get more pokemon (knowing their locations and whatnot) for bragging later.
Considering Bill just hands you a free Eevee in Gold/silver/crystal, Bill seems like the type to actually trade back and forth to help someone complete their pokedex
"Bill even offers to show you his pokemon and MC flat out says no." Red is awesome. Just this quiet-yet-compassionate guy who's an absolute beast at raising and catching Pokemon. "I'll show you my Pokemon!" "nah I'm good thanks I'll find them myself eventually."
I think the Rivals 40 pokemon is actually a reference to him having access to all pokemon regardless of versions. Cause if he has access to pokemon in all versions, if I'm not mistaken catching 40 before SS Anne would be relatively trivial. It would also serve as encouragement for the player to trade with other versions to register more pokemon, beyond just the games branding.
@@konbkob4156 Well he already has access to some trades at least since he uses Alakazam, so that kinda throws predicting what pokemon he does or doesn't have right out the window.
Which makes one wonder If the boy can get every pokemon, why the HELL is he using Pigeott, literally just a shittier Fearow (itself a shittier Dodrio)? Terrible, so many better options.
It always bothered me that people just assumed he went on the same adventure. Maybe his luck with the old rod isn't as garbage as ours. Maybe he's traveled with his professor, grandfather and been to some of the central cities already. We don't know. Maybe the reason there's only two moonstones is because he already picked the others up. Maybe Bill gave him an Eevee. Blue is important, we are not. Team rocket might even leave him alone because he's too high profile. He is just chilling with them later. Giovanni probably just gives him the badge etc. It is silly to think he has the same adventure. As far as evolves over level 20, I mean I didn't use the dugtrio for surge when I was a kid. It went to the box and I forgot about it. I also evolved Pokemon and then boxed em because I didn't like em. He could have evolved a gloom and just went "ew. Get in the box" grass types were garbage in gen 1. This is actually reinforced later when he has an exegcute and a ryhorn long before we could. He simply didn't take the same path and there is a precedent to prove it.
Remember Bill gave us a ticket to go on the SS Anne. Blue just got on. Maybe he got a ticket from Oak, or someone else, but, we KNOW he didn't get it from Bill, because Bill had one ticket, that he gave to us, yet Blue is on the ship. Also he has Exegcute in Pokemon Tower, when that shouldn't be available if his options and roadblocks are all the same as ours.
"40 types of Pokemon? At this part of the game, on this part of the map, at this time of year, localized entirely in your Pokedex?" "Yes." "May I see them?" "No. I don't take you seriously, so I'm not going to use anything higher than level 20 in this fight."
I mean, if he's training all the pokemon he has equally, unlike most of us who stuck leveling up our starter, then it makes sense his levels are lower.
Well... let's see, using my own experience... If you catch EVERY POKEMON between Pallet and Vermillion, and fully evolve all those that evolve at level 30-34 or earlier, And use moon stones to evolve Jigglypuff, Wigglytuff, and Either Nidiking or Nidoqueen, then Trade Evolve Graveler Into Golem and Kadabra into Alakazam, then yes... it's easily possible to have 40 kinds of pokemon Registered in the dex by that point. I've done it. It takes time, lots of grinding, but it's doable. No video needed.
I've never had any issues with his claim frankly, mainly because it's confirmed just by the fact he has an Alakazam that he trades with people. He has people who can give him extra spaces in his dex that we just don't because he probably already gave them what they want.
This also explains his rat disappearing later on, he traded it. In the anime someone traded a Raticate for Ash's Butterfree(then traded back), so it's clearly a trade someone wants to make somewhere. And no matter what version you pick if you don't choose Bulbasaur he gets an Arcanine as his fire type at the end of the game(if you did choose Bulbasaur he has Charizard), that's a version exclusive which would require trading.
The actual answer (36~47) is close enough to the stated 40, it makes me wonder if the devs actually counted these up and made sure your rival's claim was just a bit higher than the player would ever have.
i think you can get 47 if you catch and evolve everything although since he just has pidgeotto, kadabra and the middle evolution of the starter plus him probably not trading for farfetchd that takes away 4
They probably weren't considering version exclusives when writing dialogue. And considering they wanted every game to be its own unique thing originally (before they had to drop the idea), it probably was possible until the exclusives came about.
I thought the idea that "trades don't count" in this scenario makes no sense because it implies the world from a writing standpoint cannot exist without the player. Your rival, logically speaking would be able to trade too. You can say "Well how come we don't see those trades?" Because he got to them first. The trades don't count argument implies that the trades you are offered are the ONLY trades happening. It just doesn't make any sense.
Not only that, but it's canon that NPCs trade with each other. Not even counting the rival having Alakazam, there's also two NPCs in Celadon's department store that are trading, with one trading a Graveler, and the other commenting that it evolved. Also there's no reason to think that version exclusives, or even one of a kind Pokémon besides legendaries are a thing in the "real world" of the games. The games are simulacrum of the Pokémon world, and impose various barriers between player and world that wouldn't exist for characters in the world itself. The Nidoran lines were not the only Pokémon that had sexes in Gen I, but we couldn't perceive the sex of other Pokémon. Similarly, Pokémon didn't grow Natures and Abilities in Gen III, we just couldn't observe them through the lens of previous games. The medium of games impose various limitations and such on the player that shape how they interact with the world of the game that wouldn't exist for the characters in the game world itself, and it's silly to impose the constraints the medium puts on your interactions with the world onto the characters who logically wouldn’t have those constraints.
EXACTLY. Also who’s to say he didn’t get to more moonstones before you? including only the pre 20 evolutions and the same amount of in game trades (not necessarily the same ones tho), and him just finding more moonstones he would have 40
@@Maker0824 There is also potential for him to get other stones as well. His eevee does eventually evolve which requires access to various stones to accomplish. I forget which fights actually cause the evolution and which one the evolved eevee shows up in but I know this happens. Stones that we the player do not necessarily have access to but open up the pool past 40 quite handily.
Logically, he should have access to more trades and evolution stones since he always gets everywhere before the player. Everything that's left for Red is what Blue chose not to bother with.
I mean, look at his raticate. His ratatta evolved at level 16 into a raticate - my man clearly has illegal pokemon so who is to say he doesn't have more that doesn't exceed level 20?
Ekans, oddish, bellsprout, and zubat, easy. His raticate evolved 4 levels early, those all evolve at 21 or 22 for us, that's easily within that level zone if the cap is 20, and none of them are worth using on a team meant to be serious competition for gyms, the league, and trainers on that circuit.
Who's to say the rival could've only had the player's experience? The player, due to version, can't encounter some Pokémon that we know are home to the regions we explore. The rival probably isn't "playing a version" so to say. The rival could be encountering all the Pokémon available to each route regardless of version, where the player has the terrible luck to never naturally encounter certain Pokémon, no matter how hard they try, based on version. Then consider that the rival is always ahead of you. How many trades did the rival make that aren't available to the player because the rival already made them? The rival was there 1st after all. No 2 people are granted the exact same opportunities in life, so why assume the rival and player could only have the exact same opportunities in their lives?
@@propheinx2250 There's also the fact he likely could get free Evo Stones from Professor Oak to evolve Pikachu as well as all four of the Moon Stone Evos.
@thomashost272 precisely. Who's to say what other doors opened due to being the professor's grandson. He got Cut just visiting the ship captain, where the player has to help the captain out in order to get cut. It shows that he does receive preferential treatment from the world that the player doesn't receive. It's more likely that with his opportunities, only having 40 kinds is a bit lazy.
Another argument for the rival having more possible pokémon is that he is always ahead of you. It wouldn't be that much of a stretch to say there were originally 5 moonstones, but the rival took the first 3 moonstones, and there are only 2 left for you. Also there were originally NPC's that would trade something like a Chansey or Shellder with you. Those wouldn't be availible for you anymore since he already took them
Yeah, there's a very weird logical jump people make with things like "Well Blue could only have 2 moon stones, because there's only 2 moon stones available at this point in the game" - except, the fact that there ARE 2 moon stones, it means that Blue didn't pick them up, there isn't an infinite moon stone spawning points in these two places, he just missed these two
I work retail, and the other day someone's change was $2.56. And I swear, I almost said the word "glitch" afterwards by pure reflex. Look at what you've created.
1) No reason to believe Rival is doing the exact same route, we do find him on a cruise going to a tour we don't follow... 2) No reason to believe he doesn't have rods. We get ours from NPCs hand-outs, he's canonically rich.
NOW THAT I THINK OF IT we never see the rival with an HM move so either he has pkmn we don't see in his team or he is doing a different route. And thinking too much on it I think he never gets an HM at all? Weird theory but stay with me: He didn't got the SS ticket from bill because bill was transformed into a pokémon by the time we got there, so definantly he was either considering going to cinnabar though the ss anne, in which he wouldn't need surf, or he bought the ticket just to see the famous CUT technique from the captain. But then we also know that the captain was sick before we arrived so he couldn't have gotten the CUT hm form him. Fly is obtained with CUT on a specific tree next to snorlax, which I guess he couldn't pokeflute either because MR Fuji was kidnapped by the time we see rival in lavander. The doduo girl specifically give us the HM as a request for us not to reveal her secret hiding, so if it is secret and only we knew about it rival didn't went there to get fly either. Flash is weird to justify as an OAK aid could have given him one, although he could just go to lavander though celadon or saffron as we don't see him in rock tunnel, and both SURF and STRENGHT are rewards given to 1 person in fuschia. We know he might have visited the Safari zone but the surf guy says we are the first to find him and the strenght guy just gives it to us because we found his gold teeth, so it was still lost by the time we got it. So... yeah. I think he does use a different route, prob was given a rod by his granpa, since it was all his request to fill the pokedex anyway, and with those he could have totally got more than 40 pkmn even before reaching 3rd stage evolutions. Moon stoning clefary and jigglypuff instead of nidos for example would still be reasonable for that stage of the game, for example, and maybe he didn't wanted another normal since he had raticate.
If we are really strict with timeline, and we treat the rival as having the same restrictions as the player, then it is impossible to deny that they can have 40+ mons. For all we know, he might have already had cut prior to entering SS Anne. That's because the captain gives you (doesnt lend you, or teaches you) HM cut. If we assume every trainer needs cut to enter Surge's gym, then it is comoletely illogical to expect HM's to be unique, thus, one might assume there are other means of acquiring the item. Furthermore, the ending quote "I heard there was a Cut master on board. But, he was just a seasick, old man! But, Cut itself is really useful! You should go see him! Smell ya!" (Bulbapedia) not only implies he has the item, but has already tested it's utility for exploring. And sisnce there are no cuttable trees on SS Anne, he must've had it before entering. This line of argument only tries to demonstrate the problems that arise when assuming NPC's have the same restrictions as the player, and then setting arbitrary conditions for ome to achieve similar results. In the video, a counterargument for the level cap was well presented, but the in game trades are completely invalid. For all we know, before we even reach Brock, one random ass trainer might have traded them a dratini for a rattata, or a ghastly for a weedle. They don't have the same journey as we have; they will have different struggles, and different advantages. Thus, it is unfair to compare one's journey upon any other. Don't set your goals based on what others achieve. Calling them cheaters or liars might be projecting one's insecurities and fears on failure. But don't worry, you are not a failure, just maybe not good at living other people's lives. But that's the beauty of life, you must find your own goals. It doesn't matter if you catch 10, 34, 36 or even 150 mons before reaching SS Anne. What matters is that you ser your own goals, ones that make you happy, and make it your mission to get there. Don't look to the side to compare your progress on other's achievements, just be proud for getting where you are today, and aim to be one step further tomorrow. Cheers
He canonically DID have either Cut or Surf prior to entering the SS Anne. This is shown in two ways: (1) we know for a fact that he did not get Cut from the SS Anne captain based on his commentary that the Captain was just a sea sick old man who taught him nothing, and (2) we can see, via trading in a Pokemon with Cut and entering Surge's gym and speaking with the statue, that Gary already defeated Lt Surge prior to us meeting him on the SS Anne.
This was worth it for no other reason than to learn something new in a game you've played for forever now. Shout out that moon stone before the fossils
I'm glad you also know about it now. I also only learned about it only a year or two ago, from a RUclips video. "I go to Mt. Moon, pick up the fourth Moon Stone ...." You do WHAT?!
I knew, and I got the realization of how painful it was gonna be just before he explained it. It's probably not worth it, but if you're shiny hunting, it's a nice side quest I guess
I think it's reasonable to conclude Gary/Blue has access to his own trades, and even that the only reason there are only 2 moon stones in Mt. Moon is because he took all the rest. So he can reach 40 even with the level cap.
Those last two spots are to train freshly caught pokemon immediately, as he's on the way to store them in the PC. He's grind maxing, because he's Gary Friggin' Oak.
Even trading with a friend is not against the rules or different the way Game Freak intended you to play. Trading, indeed, is one of the major ways they intended kids should play the versions, and the rival is nothing more than a representation of another kid competing with you. So, I believe the rival 3’s claim is there to motivate the player to explore the whole “catch them all” mechanics of the series
@@hostergaard Except that "caught" is the description used in the Pokédex. Hence why a different RUclipsr saw fit to take on a "Living Dex" challenge, meaning that they have to have every individual Pokémon in their possession, not just "caught" one and "caught" the evolutions by using evolution.
@@justinalicea1590 Except that at no point does it says caught when you evolve or trade Pokemon. Not once. Sorry, that is a fact, and making personal interpretation that caught does not mean caught but means evolved does not truth make. If you disagree you can link the moment in the video where it's says caught when a Pokemon is evolved or traded. Caught means caught, everything in world refer to it as such and makes the distinction clear. You need to show that is what Gary knew and meant what and all the evidence shows that he did not as at no point during the game does it says caught when you evolve or trade nor does any NPC. It's absurd to assume that caught does not mean caught when that distinction is clearly made the entire game by single every piece of info you get. In fact, if you look at orginal box where the catch em all line comes from, it makes it clear that you cannot catch them all and to collect them all you have to trade and evolve. It literally uses collect 150 and not catch. So does the manual. And the pokedex says own and owned, not caught.
@@hostergaard So you've never read the Pokédex before, understood. Because it literally reads as "caught" in the Pokédex. Again, that is the entire point a RUclipsr makes to then make the Living Dex challenge. Come on, do you even remember the tagline for Pokémon? "Gotta catch em all!" Now explain to me where you are going to catch an Alakazam, Gengar or Machamp. Where are you going to catch a Flareon, Jolteon or Vaporeon? Oh wait, you don't, yet the term "catch" is used all the same. Funny how that works?
@@justinalicea1590 So you never actually played the game and projecting yourself on me, got it. I have literally searched trough the game files, at no point does it do what you claim with regards to traded or evolved Pokemon, it does in fact keep a unique Id for the actual person who caught it. Whoops, you should not have talked about shit you did not understand like that now, but you just had to come here and run your mouth about shit you don't know and get absolutely crushed by. That gotta hurt but happy I could clear up your misconceptions and school you on the facts. Why should I? Where in the tagline does it say that you can catch them all? I am sorry but the tagline does not infer that catch does not mean catch Again **where in the video does it says catch when he trade or evolve Pokemon? Stop dodging the question** oh that is right you can't and that is why you so desperately try to to dodge the question. Funny how that works. We are talking about Gary and what he said and meant, not your poorly thought out meta inferences. You need to show where it was used interchangeably during gameplay.
I always took the 40 comment to mean it was the game designers themselves letting you know effectively "You could at this point in the game have around 40 pokemon" to give players a gauge on where they were at vs their pokedex as gamefreak I believe expects you to outlevel the rivals by design, or it certainly did during this time frame.
Keeping your pokemon under level 30, you can have up to 44 by that point in the game, if you've caught and evolved everything, gotten both moon stones, and done the in game trade for farfetch'd. It's a shit load of grinding, but it is possible. This is in Red/Blue, though, not Yellow.
The rival also has a level 16 Ratticate, indicating he is not constrained by the arbitrary gameplay mechanics that the player is. Some people really pressed about the chad rival tbh.
Evolution levels are the levels you can get them to evolve. But this is a new frontier of science! That's why you're doing it in the first place, after all. Blue's just got deeper insights into the true nature of Raticate than you. Maybe it comes up in dinner table conversations in his family.
@@twistedtachyon5877 Just as you can catch a level 9 Pidgeotto (or a level 9 Salamence in Sun/Moon... yes, really), he could just find the wild Raticate at level 16. It's the same game where Lance has some underleveled Dragonite.
@@jimmyh2137 Yes but the underleveled wild Raticate is only in Yellow and the lowest you can get is 17. Also Lance's underleveled Dragonite are only in the Johto games and all of his mons are lower levels.
i feel like this entire argument is made pointless by the fact that: he could be out doing his own thing while you're stuck on your mostly linear path of a storyline.
Some other arguments for the rival: How do we know he didn't make trades that We aren't able to, because he got there first? How do we know he's as limited in movement as we are? He might be able to get pasr obstacles we can't. Maybe he can get into and out of Saffron city with a bit of "Do you know who I am? I'm on a mission for my Grandfather, THE Professor Oak." For example.
Precisely! Most of the obstacles are there for the player to deal with! The rival wouldn't always be one step ahead of he was getting blocked as often as we were
exactly what ive been thinking this whole time! the rival would have a full party but after battling so many trainers on the boat, twocof them are fainted he didnt have enough revives to get them back but made sure to heal the rest with potions before challenging you, thinking 4 would be enough anyway and yes, its a boat you would notice another perdons presecce at some point which gave him time for potions before the battle with you
This! I don't understand how the argument came up from the rival saying "I've already got 40 different types" and everyone ignores that he also want's expecting to run into you there. Its incredibly likely that since the had 2 empty slots in his team they are most likely fainted currently if he actually has 40, and that could either be from fighting his way to the captain or possibly even fighting the captain himself since he clearly did not give the captain a backrub to help with his sea sickness. That could easily be his own over leveled Dugtrio he was using to switch train and another Pokemon that evolves in the low 20s that he didn't plan to use long term and just wanted to get to evolve and be done with for his own dex.
@@dontcensormebro3217 that is also an very fair point against it i myself mainly just assume no one would bother programming in already fainted mons for an pokemon trainer battle that you would never se but that is not disproving your point
@@dontcensormebro3217 this is the same game where you can counter items, various status moves, and _your own recoil damage._ oh, and moves your opponent didn't select, but did hover over on their console, which your console doesn't know about, which leads to counter having _different results on both consoles_ this isn't a technical limitation, as proven by gold and silver having a functional counter. gen 1 is just _that_ cobbled together, so there's no real question as to why they wouldn't bother implementing fake ko'd pokemon for the sake of a minor visual detail that could very possibly lead to a bunch of headache-inducing bugs to quash
I would say you should count all of the moon stone evolutions. just because YOU only managed to find 2 moon stones, doesn't mean that he wasn't able to find 4.
The main argument is saying that he couldn't do trades and Moonstones are limited. But...\ 1. He has an Alakazam. He absolutely can trade. 2. First off, the items in game are just the ones Red happens to find, there are other Moonstones elsewhere. Secondly Blue is always ahead of you and thus could have taken some before you got there. Also this is assuming he's confined to the same spots as Red. What if he knows a shortcut? What if he pulls a Briney and knows a guy who has a boat? What if the Saffron Guards only stop Red(they say the road is closed, but people are on all the routes they're blocking so that's not true) because they're on the Rocket Payroll like the rest of Saffron and Red by this point has AT LEAST thwarted their efforts to steal moonstones at Mt. Moon and captured the guy who stole the DIG TM(and possibly also shut down the Nugget Bridge recruitment scam, I don't think that's mandatory prior though) by this point. They're just blocking Red since he's a threat and Red has to bribe them to take advantage of the fact they aren't being supplied well to get through. Blue might have just gotten through the gate. He also might have bought a Pokeflute or had one from elsewhere, or again had access to a boat.
blue could DEF get more than 40. we have no way to know if he potentially had access to celadon/saffron before we fight him on the ss anne, like yeah the guards are thirsty when *we* get there but theres no proof they were when Blue got there before us. so he couldve had access to more captures, more evo stones, etc. like i know that this run uses the same rules as the player has but yknow, just saying that if in game trades are banned and level caps are in place, that means that the rival wouldnt have to follow the same rules so he could potentially go places we cant yet
The level cap rule should not be a thing because Dugtrio is catchable. That your rival did not run into one or could not catch it is his own fault. Edit to add: even if a level cap would be used, a more reasonable one is 30, because that is the level that any trades will still be completely obedient at this point in the game. Rationale could include The Rival using those mons but not wanting to break that threshold before Erika, so he boxed them before running into the player character. That also offsets the fact he is probably not version-limited. However, that also means lore-wise he can also get: Mankey/Meowth, Oddish/Bellsprout, Ekans/Sandshrew. That's not to mention he probably has access to different/more in-game trades and the pilfering of all the Moonstones before you get a chance at any.
There is also no reason to believe that just because he has an overleveled dugtrio doesn't mean he is going to use it. The assumption that he will always have his 6 best pokemon on him is deeply flawed. At this stage the rival is equally early in his career as you are and likely heavily experimenting with what does and doesn't fit in his long term plans. He makes regular statements about working towards his strongest possible team for the purpose of becoming champion. This is fundamentally different to assembling your strongest possible team for SS Anne. We know there is no dugtrio in his champion team. So either he has the dugtrio and hasn't taken the time to assess it yet, or he has already made the decision to not use it long term, in which case any time spent training it is time not spent finding final team members and training them. If you're goals are firmly set in the long term, you will sacrifice short term gains to achieve them, and that's exactly what Dugtrio is in this situation. The lv 28 dugtrio is a huge powerspike that will fall off in a gyms time. Useful in the moment, not nearly as useful later.
@@91Caesar Exactly. He was playing the long game and the consequence of that was him not loving and caring for his pokemon enough while Red is (forced to) and that's how he ended up with better pokes in the end. One was focused on the end goal, one on the journey.
Something to consider with the 2 Moon Stone thing is he could've just picked them up before we could, similarly he could've gotten some trades done before we could
Theoretically he might also have gotten to different routes before we did by leveraging his granddad's status, so it feels kind of off to judge him by the rules we as players have to adhere to.
@@gwammeh yea who's to say Snorlax didn't plop down right after he got back or he already had a rod to fish with etc; something like that Either way though, it's definitely possible haha
9:50 well, if we talk about our rival, then this sentence doesn't matter. Moonstone (and all other stones) are single time use, so who knows, maybe there were more moonstones and our rival took them - at least in number needed to evolve all his pokemons, and left the ones found by us. ;)
I’ve seen Droomish’s video and found it very entertaining and within the rule set he used that conclusion made sense. Jrose’s parameters are different but also logical. I just find it funny how Blue’s one line is a subject of debate.
@@psychodoctor5370 They both seem stupid. Droomish just imposed a bunch of artificial rules that the game itself doesn't follow (like suggesting the rival can't trade or that the rival is limited to version-exclusives, both of which are canonically false given he has an Alakazam and still has an Arcanine in Blue if he didn't take Charizard). Jrose made a 1-hour video reply to essentially just say "Your ruleset is bogus"
Blue is on his own journey, always a couple of steps ahead. Who knows what trades he took advantage of that aren't available to you, because you're the runner-up? Who knows how many stones he found along the way? I think one thing we all know, though: after the SS Anne, he has one fewer Pokémon. See you in Lavender Town, Blue!
The problem I have with the argument about limited items and one time only trades is this: The rival has been ahead of us the entire game. Who's to say he didn't encounter some trades and items along the way that we don't have access to? For all we know, he has a Super Rod and came across leaf stones along the way.
I always operate by a rule that NPCs aren’t bound to the same restrictions that the player is, like trainers who swim can encounter more Water types like Psyduck without needing Surf, some trainers might have better fishing rods, aren’t bound by “version exclusives” since trainers can have them regardless of your game, find different resources than we do, have traded with people we don’t meet, etc. Blue gets an Alakazam so clearly he’s traded before, so maybe he can do some other things we can’t at that point.
I honestly always assumed Gary had that 40. When I was young playing, seeing his name on the statue of the entrance (every gym) of his name before mine EVERYTIME triggered me lol so with that, that means he’s beaten every gym leader even when ya walk out of pallet for the first time 😂. Funny little thing to consider
Ha, Well I can see your point, but I always assumed his name was first on the statues because he's ahead of you and isn't dealing with Team Rocket so he's getting to places faster than you too, kinda makes me wonder what his run through the game is like. 😄
I can believe the rival would have access to his OWN in-universe or lore-consistent trades, and even that he'd get an early gift pokemon that we didn't. I can believe he wouldn't necessarily bring his best to the fight with us, AND I can believe he'd have a way to access more moon stones before we do. I just don't see him grinding for hours in Diglett Cave, anything beyond level 22 is a stretch.
If you can already accept that he isn't limited to version-exclusives and would have likely had access to various evolution stones earlier, likely could enter Saffron earlier, and all that jazz, then I think it's reasonable to think that he had already caught 40 wildly unique pokemon from all over the place and they're all low level. I agree with you that he probably isn't rocking any level 40's on his team but could still easily have gotten 40+ unique species just by having access to more in-universe content.
As I stated previously, Trainers aren't limited by version exclusives, only player. So he could access any version exclusive. That's why trainers in any version can have in their teams version exclusives from the other games while also not limited by having a limited amount of evolution stones
Yeah even as a kid I took that as the devs saying "you could hypothetically have 40 pokemon in your dex by now". Or whatever. Like the little prizes from Oaks assistants were saying you SHOULD have X number of pokemon by now.
I remember the last time someone brought this up i went over the entire dex and found a way blue could honestly have gotten 50 pokemon by that point. Nobody cared to hear it out for some reason. Wish pokemon had a scene where you get 50 mons and blue is shocked you actually got that many while he has at most less than 20
@@somechupacabrawithinternet8866 well basically I went through similar ways a player can get every pokemon with the base game like jrose. Only difference was how trade EVOS could be gotten much sooner and the moon stone trick as well. I got about the same numbers but I thought blue said 50 so I was looking for every pokemon and place to get to that number not 40
Honestly, if we're going to assume he can't have any Pokemon higher than level 20 based on this encounter we may as well assume that since we only ever see him use maybe 10 Pokemon that he only ever caught that many. Which would be a silly thing to assume
Also, why is level 20 even chosen here? Wouldn't you base it off of his lowest level Pokemon(16) instead? By their logic he shouldnt use a level 16 pokemon over a level 17 pokemon.
There's also the bit of abstraction about what levels actually mean. As players, we have magic bars that tell us how damaged our pokemon are, which is a bit silly; far more silly than assuming Gary's pokemon has been battling on the ship, so it's hypothetical peak performance of say, level 28, is being reduced to 20 because of fatigue, instead of being sent out at lower than maximum health, because that's more work. Since apparently, otherwise we are to believe that the people we meet on routes have not taken a single point of damage from any wild pokemon or other trainers in the area, and/or are dropping a 6 pack of full restores and max elixirs before they fight us, every time.
Its more that the claim was "Its impossible for him or the player to have that money pokemon by this point in the game" which has the video shows is false.
let's make this super easy: You get 2 in game trades, rival gets 2 in game trades. You both get to follow the exact same rules. Barring in-game trades is unfeasible anyway, we know for certain that Blue trades. He has an Alakazam.
Personally I don't think the rival is playing the same game as us, and is stated to always be 1 step ahead of us. I don't think he's lying regardless of how we figure it. Plus based on how he uses a trade evo later, I don't think we can nick the possibility he has traded, found stones we don't have access to because he picks them up first, etc. I guess it's odd he doesn't have a full team, but he could be nerfing himself and not wiping you with a full team of level 30. Maybe for ego stroking reasons (seems the type), maybe because he is pulling a nemona and sees pounding down someone with overleved mons as a cheap win and unsportsmanlike (also probably in-character). Idk. As previously said, I think we are just playing very different games.
For the leveling thing, because rival only has 4 pokemon, 2 of them could be fainted from fighting the trainers in SS Anne (some people don't fight you, so those could have been the ones he fought). And because Dugtrio is obtainable at a higher level, he could have just fought all trainers with it but fainted it. By the time he reaches the captain, he only has 4 left and because revives are not avaiable at that point, he just fights you with 4 (he would have potions to heal). Still, could be an oversight, could be an aproximation of what devs intended, or even a translation error. Also, because the rival ends up with an Alakazam on his team, trades are 100% fair.
Just using logic: Rival is carrying 3 pokemon. None of them are evolved. It is highly likely that Rival is lying - or he is not a very bright individual.
While the player can get 47 pokemon, we know the rival can only get 46. Because neither you nor him can breed your starter, and his starter is only second stage. Therefore, he can't have his starter's third stage evolution yet.
People making this argument should also realize blue is is not the player. He is ahead he could have done more trades, stones, gift pokemon, or even have a better fishing rod that we cant do since he was their first.
He could also swim (although probably not all the way to cinabar or sea foam) and benefits from time passing (maybe snorlax was passable, maybe the roads into saffron weren't closed, etc.).
omg never thought I'd be in a Jrose video! Thanks for all the vids and keep up the good work! Always found it funny that this little bit of throwaway dialogue sparked so much lively debate. At the end of the day, I think the intent is to make the player feel like the rival is still way ahead of them, which they absolutely would be to pretty much anyone playing through the game
Or if he was catching and leveling them as aggressively as shown here to fill the dex, it makes more sense he'd have open slots in his party. The second he caught something, he could level it alongside his team!
One thing you didn’t mention is that he gives you cut, so by the time you fight him and he says this, he had access to everything behind cut trees. Also, tho logic that “in game trades are finite” also should be applicable elsewhere, but in reverse. Using a strand of that logic, he went through mt. Moon first so probably found more moon stones and left us just two. There probably were something like 10 NPCs willing to trade Pokémon, but he did all the trades before we met the NPCs and just left us with farfetchd and Mr mime. Great vid!
Cut opens the route east of Cerulean to Rock Tunnel(he has theoretical access to Flash as well) and that gives potential access to Magnemite, Voltorb, Machop and Onix between versions, and much more than that if you grant he could go through Rock Tunnel(but I think this is going kind of far).
I always took what Blue(Gary) said with a grain of salt because he is only a kid. In my circle of people, there were always people who would tell a lot of tall tales and that is what I always put Gary in that vein like "I could do that with my eyes closed" or "I got a million of them". He is confident, cocky and has a bravado and always likes to toot his own horn. I never thought he caught 40 kinds by that point because it depends on what you mean by kinds. He could have caught multiples of one Pokemon, that may count as one in the Pokedex.
He did the Count impression! I never thought I'd be excited about a Count impression, but here we are, years into the Kanto Solo Challenges. Some more arguments about the ruleset: It could be that he has overused certain pokemon, and they've been benched for struggle behavior. As for trading, just because one time trades exist, doesn't mean the rival didn't do any: you wouldn't have the option of those one time trades and wouldn't see them. Plus, leveling past level 20 for evolutions, even slightly, is sufficient and has the best arguments for why it is conceivable for the rival to do, so trades don't need to matter.
There are trainers in the game with Pokemon that are evolved but are below the evolution level. This proves that canonically at least in the first game, Pokemon's evolution level is an in-game mechanic. Pokemon may be capable of evolving earlier.
@@Jrose11can you do Omastar next? I did a Red and Blue one with it, and beat Mewtwo's 3:03 time. I used the bike, though, so your time will be different, but it's a good Pokemon. I even did minimum battles for a little bit.
I'd say that if you follow some strict rules and you get to 38 or 39, I'd say that's still showing it's at least plausible, as the rival may have taken a slightly different path that allowed him to encounter slightly different pokemon and he had 1or 2 more options available to him to catch or evolve that the player didn't have. It's a fallacy to assume that the conditions that are true for the player must be an exact match for the NPC, whom we only meet at brief intervals, so presumably he's going different routes and in a different order then the PC is.
If you take some of the anime canon into account, then you also have to take into account the fact that Gary is canonically semi-rich. You also have to assume he very likely already has things like the fishing rods (you see him using a rod early in the anime), as well as a bag full of evolution stones. He also boasts about trading a bunch of pokemon at the SS Anne party.
Thanks to this analysis, it shows that 40 really was the perfect number. One a player COULD reach, but not one they were LIKELY to reach unless they played a specific way.
It's also basically canon that Blue used trades because he has an Alakazam which can only be obtained through trading
And later he has a Exeggutor or Exeggcute before you have access to the Fushia route, meaning he has access to routes we don't have access too. So his claim of 40 is fairly likely as he could have pokemon that are from the later cities.
@@TheLastSane1sadly people need in-game presented evidence of him capturing those Pokémon because word of mouth just isn't enough. So this will likely never go away but it may slightly quiet down.
Or Blue isn't limited to game mechanics like you the player, meaning Blue or Gary can catch all version exclusives and able to evolve his Pokémon without trading and access to more than evolution stones
Since Gary is a jerk he might just walk through the forest.
I choose to believe he also found Moon Stones to get to 38. Then a Weepinbel is 39. Maybe fished a Poliwag, who knows lmao.
The fact that the rival was able to successfully annoy a huge chunk of the fan base and live rent free in there heads for over 20 years is very fitting. "smell ya later"
Its the music for me. Duh duuuh dununununuu nu nu nuh nuh naah naaah
Meanwhile he's just chilling, doing his thing.
Their*
One of the best rivals
Gary’s Pokemon *Rival sprite* of the OG game, manages to do what he uniquely is meant to do, annoy & frustrate people who play 🤣😂
What a well-made- perhaps “perfect” written character! 😂😅
the funny part is they realize trades are a one-time event. they don't imagine he could have found people we didn't
Or we might even be trading for pokemon the rival gave them originally! Could've been Gary's Farfetch'd etc.
also they forget that we simply have the option to _not_ take the trades, so the rival could still theoretically get the one-time pokémon if he wanted
You forget he is lying because he not have a full party, i got all 151 pokemon before fighting second gym since was a cheat back then to get the pokemon you wanted to spawn at level 10 including mew it don't matter if it possible not having a full team means he is a liar.
@@basillah7650 you ever heard of putting pokémon in the PC?
I didn't realise that I was only supposed to trade with my friends once, and not as often as we felt like.
In-game trade is not the same as the trading mechanics in the game. Those in-game trades aren't offered until after you have a badge. The trading system can be used the moment you get the Pokedex.
It's like no one in these comments section has actually played a Pokemon game other than Pokemon Go.....
The entire point of the 'I got 40 Pokémon' line is that the rival is always meant to be one step ahead of you. So, I think it's perfectly fitting for the player to only just barely not be able to reach that number (without trading, excessive grinding, etc.)
It's also just natural language use to round up... People tend to round up and round to round numbers. If the max was legitimately 15 and he said 40, that'd be one thing.... But someone getting 36 and saying 40 is natural language use. Everyone does that.
Also important.
You get the SS Anne ticket from Bill.
Blue... just got one. Maybe he got it from Professor Oak or something, but, it's just one example of him having access to things you otherwise wouldn't.
For all we know, he was able to get past the guards into Celadon and take the train to Goldenrod, and your peasant ass doesn't even know a train exists.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 Yea I think Blue just... bought that ticket. And Red is just a little stupid, and never thought to buy one. He put all his smarts into training, so he has none left to, idk, walk around a tiny bush. And that is why we, as a player, are limited in our movement.
@@anzaia2164this cracked me up
The amount of undeveloped brain people not realizing this is insane. "waaah waah they cheatinn"
Your rival is canonically ahead of you the entire game. Therefore you get all the left overs. He easily could have gotten way more stones, trades, fossils and accessed routes before Snorlax got there. Likely your rival has at least 4 moon stones, both fossils and got the trades since he declined them.
he cannonically went to fuchsia before snorlax blocked the routes since when you fight him in the pokemon tower he has an exeggcute which is only found in the safari zone and by this point snorlax is still blocking the path that leads there
@@depotheose7890Not necessarily, he could have just traded for it. His alakazam proves that he can.
@@depotheose7890 Yeah, he's really ruthless. First he catches the last Snorlax in route 3, although they are clearly under conversation and then he littered it somewhere on the street while he was travelling.
@@depotheose7890 That is only true if you didn't pick squirtle as your starter.
I think this is the best argument, maybe there were 6 moonstones, he took 4 and left you only 2, maybe there were a dozen trades, he took 10 and left you 2. Throw in some of the other arguments like having access to fishing rods earlier (who's to say he had never left Pallet Town before setting off on his adventure) and if he is rich, who's to say he didn't buy some off people too, you can buy pokemon from shops so it makes sense you can buy privately too. 40 definitely seems reasonable.
I think people also forget that the rival also just probably isn't restricted by version exclusives
Not probably, definitely. Arcanine is version-exclusive but he has one in both versions.
He's not even restricted to Kanto Pokémon. When you meet him on the SS Anne he greets you with "Bonjour", and we know from X and Y he learned "Bonjour" while studying in Kalos. He just came back from Kalos via the SS Anne and probably couldn't bring the Kalos Pokémon into Kanto because they'd crash the game er I mean for legal reasons (he just came back from studying in Kalos?? How long has it been since we saw him on Nugget Bridge??)
@@danieldutoit2187 Maybe his last two spots were Kalos Pokemon, and he wanted to show his grandfather before you?
@@danieldutoit2187 I'm glad you got time to figure out imaginary story characters and where they been imaginarily in the game. That must mean you found all the missing children that were taken from their parents a few years ago right you know every single one of them went you know where the government took them to? If not I wouldn't be to proud to be an adult talking about an imaginary scenario for a child's video game.
@@JesusIsKing1991. Okay. What? Playing two games and noticing a common word showing up in regards to the same character is somehow on par with unmasking a government child abduction conspiracy? What?
I always found this discussion a bit pointless. We battle Blue in the Pokémon Tower, where he has an Exeggcute, at a point where the roads to Fuschia are blocked by Snorlax. But he has already been there and obtained a Pokémon that can only be caught in the Safari Zone. This means that he either got that traded to him (which means he can get 40 Pokémon by trading a bunch just like we trade for Mr. Mime), or he accessed routes and cities before we can. Which means he can literally have gone anywhere to get those 40 Pokémon and the possibilities are endless.
He also has an Alakazam which can also only be obtained by trading, so we no for certain he has traded at least once.
gary's journey might be different then red's
That's a good point
@@somechupacabrawithinternet8866 thats what causes problems.
how did he get around the snorlax without waking it up?
did he do a damn triple jump like mario or something?
Blue obviously went over to Lavender and Fuschia before the Snorlax went to sleep on the pier. The Snorlax was clearly only recently asleep since the passenger on the SS Anne felt it was worth proclaiming as news.
The only reason we run back into him in Lavender is because he was grieving his dead Raticate. Then, the only other time we face him is when there's a big mob terrorist event in the Silph Co, but by then he could already be all across the Kanto region and just flew back to check out the commotion.
I'd also make the argument that, as the professor's grandson, he'd have much better resources. The anime shows him as being wealthy, so it'd make sense that he'd have fishing rods from the start, adding several additional Pokémon to his dex count.
That's a great point dude
Bro had a convertible filled with adoring cheerleaders, he had all the resources he wanted!
Don't forget he could have possibly trade stuff...which explains Alakazam and Growlithe (being in either version)
Also it’s clear that he’s ahead of us as we travel through the world. Who knows how many moon stones he picked up before we got there, how many trades he made before we had the opportunity, etc.
It's also possible he had hms the player can't get at that point
The "trades only being usable once" argument also works against the player: maybe the rival did some trades before the player so the player doesn't have access to them anymore.
Surprised people never got this
I always felt that this was their way of telling the player "This is where you should be if you're catching them all."
I really like this theory.
I think so too, because whenever I got to that point in the game, 40 sounded like a ridiculous number to me. I didn't even realize it was a plausible number until I watched Droomish's video about this (my main takeaway watching his video wasn't even "the rival is a liar", it was "wait, 40 is actually possible??")
More like it's a number that's barely doable, but not realistic under normal circumstances (You'd need to go out of your way to catch everything, which without a guide would be hard to do, AND you'd need to grind your extras a lot, which most people wouldn't), so that he's ahead of you, like a good rival should.
Yeah that's what I always thought too. Like they are telling you "you could have encountered 40 Pokemon by now" like the oaks assistants are telling you that you should have at least that many Pokemon by now.
@@rroadagain2810while the number is technically true, it's clear that the dialogue exists to pressure the player to into the collectible aspect of the game. It is not a coincidence that that is also what the developers heavily monetized by setting up artificial barriers (trades, different versions, etc).
That was the name of the game back in the day a la proto gacha. Even zelda did it with Oracle of Ages and Seasons.
gary is just too much of a chad to let a shrubbery prevent him from traversing public road infrastructure
Okay you're dumb Gary and blue are different people 🤦 this was established years ago there's even a series about it where red and blue go on a pokemon journey 🤦
"Machop, give me a boost"
Was it a nice, not too expensive shrubbery?
@@christopherstart4410 Aaaah! No, don't say that word!
@@wombat4191 Ni
The fact that people consider he HAS to take the exact same path as us, while he could have been venturing on routes we haven't visited yet . . .
That's what I'm thinking. Your rival probably doesn't have to rizz up a rich guy to get a free bike.
He also could have done trades, met Pokémon salesmen and collected stones that the player can't access because the rival already did/took them. Adding rules to it based on what is available to the player like how many trades there are don't really make sense to me because he's travelling ahead of us, anything we can see is what he left behind.
I'd like to point out that since he never said he had 40 unique Pokemon, as JRose pointed out, he could have pulled an Ash and caught a bunch of Tauros. He never offered to show us his Pokedex afterall... 😂
@@ragnarokaeon8242💀💀💀💀💀
Something to keep in mind, the world as we see it is how it is AFTER the rival passed through already. He very easily could've taken npc trades that are inaccessible to us, because he took them already, and we never knew of them because they were gone by the time we got there.
And he could also have picked up some more moon stones
And he could have friends to trade with, something probably lacking for those too concerned about whether or not it was possible for him to have 40 mons by Vermilion.
You cant catch a Farfetched in the wild because Gary already killed and ate them all as a snack before the game started confirmed!
Wait a second, the rival HAS to participate in trading. He has an Alakazam at the end of the game!
Yep. And Arcanine is version exclusive Red and he has that on his non charmander teams, so 50/50 chance he traded for that as well. And if he has trading, he could have gotten a pokemon with cut, which opens up more of the region for him.
And since he doesn't have the badges, maybe he has some boxed Machamp/Gengar/etc that don't obey him, so he doesn't bother using them.
@@starmangalaxy2001 I think it's just that NPCs aren't bound to game encounters. How did the guy get a Farfetch'd if you can't catch them anywhere in Kanto? How does that other guy have a Mr. Mime when it also can't be caught anywhere in Kanto? Where did Oak get the starters from if the only ones in the entire region are his and the like 3 other random trainers who have one?
@@GoodHunter9 clearly they're one-time encounters like the snorlax and legendaries ( and, technically, the ghost marowak ) and the npcs just got to 'em before you did
it is funny to think about, though, that stuff like farfetch'd and lapras are hinted at to be trade / gift only because they're endangered species, yet then there's ones like mr. mime, jynx, and lickitung that are randomly trade-only despite having zero indication of being even all that rare
@@hi-i-am-atan I think it's best to just accept it as video game shenanigans. I've always assumed that stuff like Mr. Mime is common in places we as the player never visit, and Blue probably went to some of those places.
I never liked how this challenge just outright bans trading. It's such a central mechanic that even Blue/Green does it to get an Alakazam. Plus this video proves that he has the version exclusives since in all games if you traded over you would have it.
He also has an Exeggcute before we can even potentially get one, so he either went to the Safari Zone way before us, or he traded for it specifically
the answer is simple, He actually has friends and can trade, something we all know we don't have
😂😂
Even more reason to hate the rival.
Dude's got swagger. Gotta respect it.
But trading is not catching. He says caught not tradet or registered.
@hostergaard
Semantics. No one differentiates their traded and caught Pokemon when they're talking about creating a living dex. Esp wheb talking about trade only Pokemon, which Gary has. Alakazam? And in Pokemon Blue, if he doesn't have Charizard he uses Arcanine...which is exclusive to Red and unobtainable by the player. So there's evidence he did indeed trade.
And the implication is that he's referring to the Pokemon in the Pokedex, he mentions catching 40 after asking to see your Pokedex to prove how many you caught.
Beyond that, as JRose said, he never explicitly said they were all different. He could have caught ten Rattata for all we know and is counting that. So overall, entirely possible for him to have 40.
He caught the rest in Bill's secret garden.
He caught Pikablu
Is it possible to get Dratini? He could get a Yoshi.
And if he got a Clefairy, he could get a Mewthree.
@@theeducatedfoolahh, you just brought me back to fifth grade
He caught mewthree and doomsday and doomsay
Dang we found all the OG red/blue players here
The premise Blue lied relies on assuming Blue followed the exact path we did, but there's evidence that's untrue, so he was likely honest.
Its very possible the Rival traded with other people, found more Moonstones, had a fishing rod.
These options alone, even in Red/Blue, are more than enough to bring him at 40.
And MAYBE he was a bit lying, and had 38, 36, 3x, and like all kids do, just made himself try to look a bit cooler.
Thats the real answer.
Yeah, he went through mount moon before us so all we find are the moon stones he didn't pick up.
I think that Blue was stretching the truth a little. Also, I don't buy the Raticate death theory. He just benched his Raticate or let it stay at Oak's or his sisters.
not really lying. if you have 38 of something, most people would simply round that up to 40.
The real 40 kinds are the friends we made a long the way?
he has a growlithe, regardless of game version. that alone is proof that he isnt limited to in game version exclusives. also, as people mentioned above, in later battles he has pokemon that he couldnt catch because they are located in places locked to the player at the time.
literaly proving him capable of getting them regardless of what the player has access to.
I always thought this was a way for the writers to be like "he's always a step ahead of you" but, always fun to see people take it literally.
There is a lot of that in gen 1. The rival's name is also listed as a registered trainer in every gym.
I always thought this was a way for the writers to show how kids lie with their imaginations. Like the kind of people that claimed their dad works at Nintendo.
Gary is a jerk, so why would he not lie?
@@dontcensormebro3217 , he's also a spoiled rich braggart that wouldn't have a problem using money to get ahead of you and then boast about being better. So why should he lie? It works both ways.
I think this is what makes the line so great. If it's your first playthrough, chances are he'll be one step ahead of you with that claim. On subsequent playthroughs you'll have all the knowledge of where to get pokemon and how to evolve them, so you'll be able to match that claim; it's now a benchmark instead of an impossibility. The only thing that Gamefreak should have done to truly solidify this is to add a check for your dex and have additional dialogue if you met that 40 pokemon threshold.
Always found that funny cause like... I have beat you EVERY time I've met you. Why are you still so damn sure of yourself!? How many times do I have to teach you this lesson!?
I mean for all we know Blue has a bicycle, a boat, and an uncle who works as a guard. He might have free range access to the whole region.
Just think
We didn't get invited to the SS Anne, Bill gave us his ticket because he was busy fixing his fursuit, Blue was just there. Either he was invited, Oak gave him his, or he found some totally unrelated person and got their ticket.
ok but if we start venturing in that direction then why even try to prove anything rationally? if he's going on different routes and has uncles that get him places then whats to say his cousin doesnt own a private jet that he used to fly to alola and catch 200 pokemon there? when you start delving into made-up what-ifs like this then there's literally no point in the exercise of counting every single possible pokemon he could have gotten because then why stop at 48? maybe he found a treasure chest with a thousand full pokeballs in it. either you take the game at face value and the rival is lying (extremely in-character and more rational than "he has a second charmander he raised to level 36") or you just start writing fan fiction where anything could happen
@@jayr.9884
All of that is more sensible than assuming he must obey every law of the game you do, even when assuming as such is completely ridiculous.
It's significantly more likely for Blue to be able to pull on pre-existing connections and wealth he has, than it is that he is limited to cloning the moonstones you can pick up, so you both have the same number.
It's significantly more likely that version exclusives do not exist in the world, because other trainers are absolutely able to aquire these pokemon you can't get in your version, the proof being that they have them.
It's significantly more likely to assume that he can just find more pokemon than you can on routes, because we have seen that these routes have different pokemon on them based on route, generation, time of day, ect, than it is to assume your encounter table is a 100% accurate, unchanging ecological survey.
This stuff isn't baseless either. Blue HAS an Arcanine on his non-Charizard teams even when Growlithe isn't in your version.
Blue HAS an Alakazam, when you can find nobody in the region willing to trade you their Kadabra.
Blue HAS an Exegcute in Pokemon Tower, before you can possibly catch one, if he was bound to following the same routing you are.
We KNOW Blue beats Surge's gym without getting Cut from the captain, meaning he either got it somewhere else, or has another way around the gym. We KNOW he has gotten to places that require HMs, yet none of his pokemon have them to use them in battle, meaning either he has more pokemon he isn't battling with, he has ways around needing them, or has access to a Move Deleter that we don't.
Blue HAS a level 16 Raticate, suggesting that either he found a place he can catch those, or he's just a better pokemon trainer so can get Rattata to evolve earlier than you can, or that enemy levels take into account things like their current exhaustion, meaning his teams may well actually be higher level than they look when you fight them, because he isn't actively looking for you to pick fights.
None of this is wild, baseless speculation, like Blue has found Seath's Elf Key and made it to Tseldora, and caught the Prowling Magus, defeated Freja, evolved his Kadabra by using the Paledrake Soul on it, and used her silk to climb over the tree to Surge's gym.
This is just acknowledging the possibilities and explanations for things THAT WE SEE, that prove his event sequencing is different than ours.
We have no reason to doubt Blue; at no point does he lie or mislead the player, and he repeatedly shows that he has access to things we the player do not. A world in which Blue does not have access to things the player does not, lies about having access to things the player does not, yet has access to things the player does not is more strange than one where he has access to things the player does not, and tells the player he has access to things the player does not, because Blue has never displayed any other symptoms of dissasociative personality disorder, but does display symptoms of having things we don't.
What exactly these methods of access are, we don't know. But we know he has them. There IS speculation in thinking about how, but this is mostly guided along lines of least unreasonability. Assuming Blue was able to get to the Safari Zone before the Snorlax got there, or else knew a way around it is less unlikely than Blue going to wizard school three years ago, and remembering his headmaster gave him an exegcute and told him to keep it hidden until he reached Lavender Town.
The goal should be to reduce the explanations to as few common threads as possible, and to make these threads are as close to reasonable as we can muster, based on the information we DO have, and it's less of a stretch to assume he's either more resourceful, or has more connections because of his grandpa, than it is to assume he's a wizard.
@@jayr.9884 what is your explanation for Blue getting in the S.S. Anne? How did Blue get Alakazam? He needs to have access to things we don’t.
@@Pershath08 i'm not trying to argue about specifics i'm saying that the entire thought exercise breaks down and becomes pointless when you start introducing that stuff. "is it possible for blue to have 40 pokemon under these specific circumstances" is a quantifiable and worthwhile experiment and "what if blue opened a wormhole to the pokeball dimension and got a billion pokemon" or "what if blue had a supersonic jet to travel straight to fuchia city" are not. because when you start saying "blue could have a boat" then the answer to how many pokemon blue has changes from 40 (or whatever) to 151. he just has them all at that point.
As a Kanto pioneer back in the day, I have some thoughts regarding Gary's Pokedex:
-Gary is wealthy. He could very well have more access to other tools and items, like the Super Rod that help him catch more pokemon
-While Gary did not get Cut from the Captain, he supposedly got it from somewhere. See the above point. He also could have traded for a Pokemon with Cut, and perhaps Fly too
-The mechanics of fly are dependent on the trainer's experience, not the flying pokemon in question. It takes you to places you have been before. Maybe Gary has already visited Fuschia and Celadon?
-For that matter, we do know that Gary visits all the Gyms before we do. Presumably Vermillion's too. Perhaps he even had it done before you could cut the brush
- Gary trades for at least 1 pokemon later, 2 depending on if he has Charizard or not. Maybe he trades for some others? Some that you just don't get access to?
-Why would he not use stronger pokemon on his team? Ones he has to trade for or level up to catch? Maybe he just doesn't feel like it
-Gary, as an NPC, isn't limited to the same mechanics the player is. He actually lives in the world.
-Gary does move places faster than the player. Maybe he got to Fuschia before Snorlax got there?
-Theory, but Kanto has a 'Living Pokedex', lorewise. Any place a pokemon is available, all forms of those pokemon are available. So any place you could catch Pidgey, you would also have a very tiny chance to catch Pidgeot, etc. So maybe he could've actually CAUGHT 40 kinds outright, as text suggests
-There are still some pokemon Gary may not be able to acquire, because they are not CATCHABLE. Mr. Mime, Farfetchd, Jynx, fossils, etc.
-Breaking the entire theory, if you assume that all of the other regions and pokemon retroactively existed all this time, then maybe Gary has some non-Kanto pokemon in his collection, like Marill or Steelix?
And his grandpa is the inventor of the Pokédex and a professor so he could just be more talented than red too which is how I think of that line from a writing standpoint
Super Rod was my first thought. With a level 20 cap that would give him poliwag, goldeen, tentacool, krabby, psyduck, and shellder; I think. And trading of course. There might only be 2 npcs that offer us trades, but if Gary is going around offering trades to all the npcs then there could be more that accept.
@@RibbitRibbit25 Agreed. My thought is that Gary either didn't meet those particular people and complete the trades, or he had moved on before they wanted to trade. Plausibly it is quite possible he met and had other trades before we got there.
There is also implication in the original games that Gary/Rival starts off with a bike. which is part of how he gets around faster than you do. This could potentially give him access to areas you do not have access to.
@Quandry1 i considered that angle. In the anime, it takes Ash a few weeks to reach Vermillion, baring in mind he takes a few detours. Gary meanwhile had a car. He probably made it to Cerulean before Ash even had his first badge.
Droomish: this is impossible
Jrose: *and I took that personally*
☝
Also why does everyone forget Rival 2 dialogue?
during rival 2 he says that he filled out some of his pokedex entry and everything thanks to Bill.
to quote "Hey, guess what? I went to Bill's and got him to show me his rare Pokémon! That added a lot of pages to my Pokédex! After all, Bill's world famous as a PokéManiac! He invented the Pokémon Storage System on PC! Since you're using his system, go thank him! Well, I better go rolling! Smell ya later!"
who's to say he didn't trade them over to show off the pokedex pages
Bill even offers to show you his pokemon and MC flat out says no.
No one reads game dialogue. lol But good catch. Considering he waited until the SS Anne to say the line, he may have used those entries to make it easier to get more pokemon (knowing their locations and whatnot) for bragging later.
Unless Bill is willing to trade with everyone forth and back, that would only pad his number of pokemon seen, not caught.
Considering Bill just hands you a free Eevee in Gold/silver/crystal, Bill seems like the type to actually trade back and forth to help someone complete their pokedex
"Bill even offers to show you his pokemon and MC flat out says no."
Red is awesome. Just this quiet-yet-compassionate guy who's an absolute beast at raising and catching Pokemon. "I'll show you my Pokemon!" "nah I'm good thanks I'll find them myself eventually."
I think the Rivals 40 pokemon is actually a reference to him having access to all pokemon regardless of versions. Cause if he has access to pokemon in all versions, if I'm not mistaken catching 40 before SS Anne would be relatively trivial.
It would also serve as encouragement for the player to trade with other versions to register more pokemon, beyond just the games branding.
He uses Arcanine regardless of which version you choose, so this is the right answer
Not to mention he could get the other two starters and just not use them.
@@konbkob4156 Well he already has access to some trades at least since he uses Alakazam, so that kinda throws predicting what pokemon he does or doesn't have right out the window.
Yup, that's always been my take on it too
Which makes one wonder
If the boy can get every pokemon, why the HELL is he using Pigeott, literally just a shittier Fearow (itself a shittier Dodrio)? Terrible, so many better options.
It always bothered me that people just assumed he went on the same adventure. Maybe his luck with the old rod isn't as garbage as ours. Maybe he's traveled with his professor, grandfather and been to some of the central cities already. We don't know. Maybe the reason there's only two moonstones is because he already picked the others up. Maybe Bill gave him an Eevee. Blue is important, we are not. Team rocket might even leave him alone because he's too high profile. He is just chilling with them later. Giovanni probably just gives him the badge etc. It is silly to think he has the same adventure. As far as evolves over level 20, I mean I didn't use the dugtrio for surge when I was a kid. It went to the box and I forgot about it. I also evolved Pokemon and then boxed em because I didn't like em. He could have evolved a gloom and just went "ew. Get in the box" grass types were garbage in gen 1. This is actually reinforced later when he has an exegcute and a ryhorn long before we could. He simply didn't take the same path and there is a precedent to prove it.
Entirely plausible. Red has to do things the hard way.
Remember
Bill gave us a ticket to go on the SS Anne.
Blue just got on. Maybe he got a ticket from Oak, or someone else, but, we KNOW he didn't get it from Bill, because Bill had one ticket, that he gave to us, yet Blue is on the ship.
Also he has Exegcute in Pokemon Tower, when that shouldn't be available if his options and roadblocks are all the same as ours.
"40 types of Pokemon? At this part of the game, on this part of the map, at this time of year, localized entirely in your Pokedex?"
"Yes."
"May I see them?"
"No. I don't take you seriously, so I'm not going to use anything higher than level 20 in this fight."
I mean, if he's training all the pokemon he has equally, unlike most of us who stuck leveling up our starter, then it makes sense his levels are lower.
The steamed hams reference is clutch
@@livingborg
Top tier reference tbh
Well... let's see, using my own experience...
If you catch EVERY POKEMON between Pallet and Vermillion, and fully evolve all those that evolve at level 30-34 or earlier, And use moon stones to evolve Jigglypuff, Wigglytuff, and Either Nidiking or Nidoqueen, then Trade Evolve Graveler Into Golem and Kadabra into Alakazam, then yes... it's easily possible to have 40 kinds of pokemon Registered in the dex by that point. I've done it. It takes time, lots of grinding, but it's doable. No video needed.
@@TarsonTalonmy starter used to be the only one I’d actually use
I've never had any issues with his claim frankly, mainly because it's confirmed just by the fact he has an Alakazam that he trades with people. He has people who can give him extra spaces in his dex that we just don't because he probably already gave them what they want.
This also explains his rat disappearing later on, he traded it.
In the anime someone traded a Raticate for Ash's Butterfree(then traded back), so it's clearly a trade someone wants to make somewhere.
And no matter what version you pick if you don't choose Bulbasaur he gets an Arcanine as his fire type at the end of the game(if you did choose Bulbasaur he has Charizard), that's a version exclusive which would require trading.
@@scragar Nah, his rat died. Why else do you think he is in the Graveyard, the first time you see him without Ratmon?
@@as3609 to catch cubone?? he literally says why he's there
I like the idea that he also came across the trades you are presented, but they thought he was an a-hole and didn't want to trade with him
@@jonskillings1258
To be fair the trades he skips are all horrid.
You're not getting the cream of the crop, you're getting Farfetch'd.
The actual answer (36~47) is close enough to the stated 40, it makes me wonder if the devs actually counted these up and made sure your rival's claim was just a bit higher than the player would ever have.
i think you can get 47 if you catch and evolve everything although since he just has pidgeotto, kadabra and the middle evolution of the starter plus him probably not trading for farfetchd that takes away 4
Who says, that the reason we only find 2 moonstones in mount moon is because he took 4 with him?
@@MrDoreius Was going to say the same thing, He could've got 4 moonstones.
They probably weren't considering version exclusives when writing dialogue. And considering they wanted every game to be its own unique thing originally (before they had to drop the idea), it probably was possible until the exclusives came about.
he went in front of us so probably had more access to moonstones
Fire Red/ Leaf Green: 5% of Clefairy is holding a moon stone.
I thought the idea that "trades don't count" in this scenario makes no sense because it implies the world from a writing standpoint cannot exist without the player. Your rival, logically speaking would be able to trade too. You can say "Well how come we don't see those trades?" Because he got to them first.
The trades don't count argument implies that the trades you are offered are the ONLY trades happening. It just doesn't make any sense.
Not only that, but it's canon that NPCs trade with each other. Not even counting the rival having Alakazam, there's also two NPCs in Celadon's department store that are trading, with one trading a Graveler, and the other commenting that it evolved.
Also there's no reason to think that version exclusives, or even one of a kind Pokémon besides legendaries are a thing in the "real world" of the games.
The games are simulacrum of the Pokémon world, and impose various barriers between player and world that wouldn't exist for characters in the world itself. The Nidoran lines were not the only Pokémon that had sexes in Gen I, but we couldn't perceive the sex of other Pokémon. Similarly, Pokémon didn't grow Natures and Abilities in Gen III, we just couldn't observe them through the lens of previous games.
The medium of games impose various limitations and such on the player that shape how they interact with the world of the game that wouldn't exist for the characters in the game world itself, and it's silly to impose the constraints the medium puts on your interactions with the world onto the characters who logically wouldn’t have those constraints.
EXACTLY. Also who’s to say he didn’t get to more moonstones before you? including only the pre 20 evolutions and the same amount of in game trades (not necessarily the same ones tho), and him just finding more moonstones he would have 40
similarly, the limits on found items wouldn't really apply if only one person can find any given item.
@@Maker0824 There is also potential for him to get other stones as well. His eevee does eventually evolve which requires access to various stones to accomplish. I forget which fights actually cause the evolution and which one the evolved eevee shows up in but I know this happens. Stones that we the player do not necessarily have access to but open up the pool past 40 quite handily.
Logically, he should have access to more trades and evolution stones since he always gets everywhere before the player. Everything that's left for Red is what Blue chose not to bother with.
I mean, look at his raticate. His ratatta evolved at level 16 into a raticate - my man clearly has illegal pokemon so who is to say he doesn't have more that doesn't exceed level 20?
well maybe in universe a more talented trainer could get their Pokémon to evolve sooner like lance
Ekans, oddish, bellsprout, and zubat, easy. His raticate evolved 4 levels early, those all evolve at 21 or 22 for us, that's easily within that level zone if the cap is 20, and none of them are worth using on a team meant to be serious competition for gyms, the league, and trainers on that circuit.
Who's to say the rival could've only had the player's experience? The player, due to version, can't encounter some Pokémon that we know are home to the regions we explore. The rival probably isn't "playing a version" so to say. The rival could be encountering all the Pokémon available to each route regardless of version, where the player has the terrible luck to never naturally encounter certain Pokémon, no matter how hard they try, based on version. Then consider that the rival is always ahead of you. How many trades did the rival make that aren't available to the player because the rival already made them? The rival was there 1st after all. No 2 people are granted the exact same opportunities in life, so why assume the rival and player could only have the exact same opportunities in their lives?
@@propheinx2250 There's also the fact he likely could get free Evo Stones from Professor Oak to evolve Pikachu as well as all four of the Moon Stone Evos.
@thomashost272 precisely. Who's to say what other doors opened due to being the professor's grandson. He got Cut just visiting the ship captain, where the player has to help the captain out in order to get cut. It shows that he does receive preferential treatment from the world that the player doesn't receive. It's more likely that with his opportunities, only having 40 kinds is a bit lazy.
Also to be fair, the rival could have gotten trades we didn't because he got them already.
Another argument for the rival having more possible pokémon is that he is always ahead of you. It wouldn't be that much of a stretch to say there were originally 5 moonstones, but the rival took the first 3 moonstones, and there are only 2 left for you. Also there were originally NPC's that would trade something like a Chansey or Shellder with you.
Those wouldn't be availible for you anymore since he already took them
Yeah, there's a very weird logical jump people make with things like "Well Blue could only have 2 moon stones, because there's only 2 moon stones available at this point in the game" - except, the fact that there ARE 2 moon stones, it means that Blue didn't pick them up, there isn't an infinite moon stone spawning points in these two places, he just missed these two
I work retail, and the other day someone's change was $2.56.
And I swear, I almost said the word "glitch" afterwards by pure reflex. Look at what you've created.
Then the Karen says you called her a bitch and suddenly jrose got you fired
That escalated quickly XD
1) No reason to believe Rival is doing the exact same route, we do find him on a cruise going to a tour we don't follow...
2) No reason to believe he doesn't have rods. We get ours from NPCs hand-outs, he's canonically rich.
NOW THAT I THINK OF IT we never see the rival with an HM move so either he has pkmn we don't see in his team or he is doing a different route.
And thinking too much on it I think he never gets an HM at all? Weird theory but stay with me:
He didn't got the SS ticket from bill because bill was transformed into a pokémon by the time we got there, so definantly he was either considering going to cinnabar though the ss anne, in which he wouldn't need surf, or he bought the ticket just to see the famous CUT technique from the captain. But then we also know that the captain was sick before we arrived so he couldn't have gotten the CUT hm form him.
Fly is obtained with CUT on a specific tree next to snorlax, which I guess he couldn't pokeflute either because MR Fuji was kidnapped by the time we see rival in lavander. The doduo girl specifically give us the HM as a request for us not to reveal her secret hiding, so if it is secret and only we knew about it rival didn't went there to get fly either.
Flash is weird to justify as an OAK aid could have given him one, although he could just go to lavander though celadon or saffron as we don't see him in rock tunnel, and both SURF and STRENGHT are rewards given to 1 person in fuschia. We know he might have visited the Safari zone but the surf guy says we are the first to find him and the strenght guy just gives it to us because we found his gold teeth, so it was still lost by the time we got it.
So... yeah. I think he does use a different route, prob was given a rod by his granpa, since it was all his request to fill the pokedex anyway, and with those he could have totally got more than 40 pkmn even before reaching 3rd stage evolutions. Moon stoning clefary and jigglypuff instead of nidos for example would still be reasonable for that stage of the game, for example, and maybe he didn't wanted another normal since he had raticate.
If we are really strict with timeline, and we treat the rival as having the same restrictions as the player, then it is impossible to deny that they can have 40+ mons. For all we know, he might have already had cut prior to entering SS Anne.
That's because the captain gives you (doesnt lend you, or teaches you) HM cut. If we assume every trainer needs cut to enter Surge's gym, then it is comoletely illogical to expect HM's to be unique, thus, one might assume there are other means of acquiring the item. Furthermore, the ending quote "I heard there was a Cut master on board. But, he was just a seasick, old man! But, Cut itself is really useful! You should go see him! Smell ya!" (Bulbapedia) not only implies he has the item, but has already tested it's utility for exploring. And sisnce there are no cuttable trees on SS Anne, he must've had it before entering.
This line of argument only tries to demonstrate the problems that arise when assuming NPC's have the same restrictions as the player, and then setting arbitrary conditions for ome to achieve similar results. In the video, a counterargument for the level cap was well presented, but the in game trades are completely invalid. For all we know, before we even reach Brock, one random ass trainer might have traded them a dratini for a rattata, or a ghastly for a weedle.
They don't have the same journey as we have; they will have different struggles, and different advantages. Thus, it is unfair to compare one's journey upon any other. Don't set your goals based on what others achieve. Calling them cheaters or liars might be projecting one's insecurities and fears on failure. But don't worry, you are not a failure, just maybe not good at living other people's lives.
But that's the beauty of life, you must find your own goals. It doesn't matter if you catch 10, 34, 36 or even 150 mons before reaching SS Anne. What matters is that you ser your own goals, ones that make you happy, and make it your mission to get there. Don't look to the side to compare your progress on other's achievements, just be proud for getting where you are today, and aim to be one step further tomorrow.
Cheers
He canonically DID have either Cut or Surf prior to entering the SS Anne. This is shown in two ways: (1) we know for a fact that he did not get Cut from the SS Anne captain based on his commentary that the Captain was just a sea sick old man who taught him nothing, and (2) we can see, via trading in a Pokemon with Cut and entering Surge's gym and speaking with the statue, that Gary already defeated Lt Surge prior to us meeting him on the SS Anne.
This was worth it for no other reason than to learn something new in a game you've played for forever now. Shout out that moon stone before the fossils
I'm glad you also know about it now. I also only learned about it only a year or two ago, from a RUclips video. "I go to Mt. Moon, pick up the fourth Moon Stone ...." You do WHAT?!
Honestly the biggest thing in the entire video. I've been mad for 25 years that I couldn't get all 4 moon stone evolutions in one game lmao.
I knew, and I got the realization of how painful it was gonna be just before he explained it.
It's probably not worth it, but if you're shiny hunting, it's a nice side quest I guess
I think it's reasonable to conclude Gary/Blue has access to his own trades, and even that the only reason there are only 2 moon stones in Mt. Moon is because he took all the rest. So he can reach 40 even with the level cap.
Rival: I already caught 40 different kinds
Also Rival: *uses a team of four Pokemon*
Those last two spots are to train freshly caught pokemon immediately, as he's on the way to store them in the PC. He's grind maxing, because he's Gary Friggin' Oak.
why use Pokemon you don't like?
He was battling trainers on the ship, too. Those were just the healthy ones
Just to evolve and fill out the dex@@shellpoptheepicswordmaster755
The rest had bad natures and IVs? (Ye I know it's gen 1, but seems sorta like it would fit his character)
Even trading with a friend is not against the rules or different the way Game Freak intended you to play. Trading, indeed, is one of the major ways they intended kids should play the versions, and the rival is nothing more than a representation of another kid competing with you.
So, I believe the rival 3’s claim is there to motivate the player to explore the whole “catch them all” mechanics of the series
Technically speaking this is only proof that he could be telling the truth. He could also still be lying to make your character feel bad.
Its actually not; the video claims he says register but he actually says caught. Evolving pokemon is not carching and so this video is wrong.
@@hostergaard Except that "caught" is the description used in the Pokédex. Hence why a different RUclipsr saw fit to take on a "Living Dex" challenge, meaning that they have to have every individual Pokémon in their possession, not just "caught" one and "caught" the evolutions by using evolution.
@@justinalicea1590 Except that at no point does it says caught when you evolve or trade Pokemon. Not once. Sorry, that is a fact, and making personal interpretation that caught does not mean caught but means evolved does not truth make. If you disagree you can link the moment in the video where it's says caught when a Pokemon is evolved or traded. Caught means caught, everything in world refer to it as such and makes the distinction clear. You need to show that is what Gary knew and meant what and all the evidence shows that he did not as at no point during the game does it says caught when you evolve or trade nor does any NPC. It's absurd to assume that caught does not mean caught when that distinction is clearly made the entire game by single every piece of info you get.
In fact, if you look at orginal box where the catch em all line comes from, it makes it clear that you cannot catch them all and to collect them all you have to trade and evolve. It literally uses collect 150 and not catch. So does the manual. And the pokedex says own and owned, not caught.
@@hostergaard So you've never read the Pokédex before, understood. Because it literally reads as "caught" in the Pokédex. Again, that is the entire point a RUclipsr makes to then make the Living Dex challenge.
Come on, do you even remember the tagline for Pokémon? "Gotta catch em all!"
Now explain to me where you are going to catch an Alakazam, Gengar or Machamp. Where are you going to catch a Flareon, Jolteon or Vaporeon? Oh wait, you don't, yet the term "catch" is used all the same. Funny how that works?
@@justinalicea1590 So you never actually played the game and projecting yourself on me, got it.
I have literally searched trough the game files, at no point does it do what you claim with regards to traded or evolved Pokemon, it does in fact keep a unique Id for the actual person who caught it. Whoops, you should not have talked about shit you did not understand like that now, but you just had to come here and run your mouth about shit you don't know and get absolutely crushed by. That gotta hurt but happy I could clear up your misconceptions and school you on the facts.
Why should I? Where in the tagline does it say that you can catch them all? I am sorry but the tagline does not infer that catch does not mean catch
Again **where in the video does it says catch when he trade or evolve Pokemon? Stop dodging the question** oh that is right you can't and that is why you so desperately try to to dodge the question. Funny how that works.
We are talking about Gary and what he said and meant, not your poorly thought out meta inferences. You need to show where it was used interchangeably during gameplay.
I always took the 40 comment to mean it was the game designers themselves letting you know effectively "You could at this point in the game have around 40 pokemon" to give players a gauge on where they were at vs their pokedex as gamefreak I believe expects you to outlevel the rivals by design, or it certainly did during this time frame.
Keeping your pokemon under level 30, you can have up to 44 by that point in the game, if you've caught and evolved everything, gotten both moon stones, and done the in game trade for farfetch'd. It's a shit load of grinding, but it is possible. This is in Red/Blue, though, not Yellow.
The rival also has a level 16 Ratticate, indicating he is not constrained by the arbitrary gameplay mechanics that the player is. Some people really pressed about the chad rival tbh.
Evolution levels are the levels you can get them to evolve. But this is a new frontier of science! That's why you're doing it in the first place, after all.
Blue's just got deeper insights into the true nature of Raticate than you. Maybe it comes up in dinner table conversations in his family.
@@twistedtachyon5877 Just as you can catch a level 9 Pidgeotto (or a level 9 Salamence in Sun/Moon... yes, really), he could just find the wild Raticate at level 16.
It's the same game where Lance has some underleveled Dragonite.
@@jimmyh2137 Yes but the underleveled wild Raticate is only in Yellow and the lowest you can get is 17. Also Lance's underleveled Dragonite are only in the Johto games and all of his mons are lower levels.
@@TheTakato122 The lowest YOU can find, not the Rival ;)
i feel like this entire argument is made pointless by the fact that: he could be out doing his own thing while you're stuck on your mostly linear path of a storyline.
2:00 "That's Three Pokémon, Ah Ah Ah"
YOU DID IT! YOU BROUGHT BACK THE COUNT IMPRESSION! ON MY BIRTHDAY!
THANK YOU!
yall jrose thinks I'm a youtuber my wildest dream has come true 🤯
It actually brought my attention to your "Rival Is A Fraud" video. I liked it. It was very snarky.
Genuine question, no hate. If you have $39 in your pocket, do you say you have $39 or do you round up to $40 😂
@@Mega_Tron6891 Depends. Who am I talking to? Do I dislike them? Do I want to degrade them? Do I want them to feel pain? Anguish?
@@Mega_Tron6891I’d say I have 39. Or I’d say “about 40”.
@@Mega_Tron6891 I'd say $39 and any exact change. I always try to put the truth forward and sometimes the truth is $39.47 being in someone's pocket.
*cough* MAYBE THE RIVAL IS NOT VERSION RESTRICTED *cough*
He isn't
His non-Charizard teams always have Arcanine, even if Arcanine isn't available in that version
Some other arguments for the rival: How do we know he didn't make trades that We aren't able to, because he got there first?
How do we know he's as limited in movement as we are? He might be able to get pasr obstacles we can't. Maybe he can get into and out of Saffron city with a bit of "Do you know who I am? I'm on a mission for my Grandfather, THE Professor Oak." For example.
Or he might have a better fishing rod because he grew up fishing. Pallet town is right on the water after all.
@@Dougy359He also could've hopped the fence and gotten a Tangela outside of Pallet Town.
Precisely! Most of the obstacles are there for the player to deal with! The rival wouldn't always be one step ahead of he was getting blocked as often as we were
And we know that the rival does have access to other trades, considering he has access to alakazam later.
@@maninthetrenchcoat5603 Does that mean he has Pikablu too?
one argument you could also make is the rival had two mons over lvl 20 they were just fainted already and as an result he never used them
exactly what ive been thinking this whole time! the rival would have a full party but after battling so many trainers on the boat, twocof them are fainted
he didnt have enough revives to get them back but made sure to heal the rest with potions before challenging you, thinking 4 would be enough anyway
and yes, its a boat you would notice another perdons presecce at some point which gave him time for potions before the battle with you
This! I don't understand how the argument came up from the rival saying "I've already got 40 different types" and everyone ignores that he also want's expecting to run into you there. Its incredibly likely that since the had 2 empty slots in his team they are most likely fainted currently if he actually has 40, and that could either be from fighting his way to the captain or possibly even fighting the captain himself since he clearly did not give the captain a backrub to help with his sea sickness. That could easily be his own over leveled Dugtrio he was using to switch train and another Pokemon that evolves in the low 20s that he didn't plan to use long term and just wanted to get to evolve and be done with for his own dex.
Why wouldn't they be blanked out on the battle screen? Even the Original Game Boy could show a basic X.
@@dontcensormebro3217 that is also an very fair point against it i myself mainly just assume no one would bother programming in already fainted mons for an pokemon trainer battle that you would never se but that is not disproving your point
@@dontcensormebro3217 this is the same game where you can counter items, various status moves, and _your own recoil damage._ oh, and moves your opponent didn't select, but did hover over on their console, which your console doesn't know about, which leads to counter having _different results on both consoles_
this isn't a technical limitation, as proven by gold and silver having a functional counter. gen 1 is just _that_ cobbled together, so there's no real question as to why they wouldn't bother implementing fake ko'd pokemon for the sake of a minor visual detail that could very possibly lead to a bunch of headache-inducing bugs to quash
I would say you should count all of the moon stone evolutions. just because YOU only managed to find 2 moon stones, doesn't mean that he wasn't able to find 4.
You could easily use the same logic with the leaf/thunder stone evolutions. There's no reason to assume he couldn't find them.
The main argument is saying that he couldn't do trades and Moonstones are limited. But...\
1. He has an Alakazam. He absolutely can trade.
2. First off, the items in game are just the ones Red happens to find, there are other Moonstones elsewhere. Secondly Blue is always ahead of you and thus could have taken some before you got there.
Also this is assuming he's confined to the same spots as Red. What if he knows a shortcut? What if he pulls a Briney and knows a guy who has a boat? What if the Saffron Guards only stop Red(they say the road is closed, but people are on all the routes they're blocking so that's not true) because they're on the Rocket Payroll like the rest of Saffron and Red by this point has AT LEAST thwarted their efforts to steal moonstones at Mt. Moon and captured the guy who stole the DIG TM(and possibly also shut down the Nugget Bridge recruitment scam, I don't think that's mandatory prior though) by this point. They're just blocking Red since he's a threat and Red has to bribe them to take advantage of the fact they aren't being supplied well to get through. Blue might have just gotten through the gate. He also might have bought a Pokeflute or had one from elsewhere, or again had access to a boat.
blue could DEF get more than 40. we have no way to know if he potentially had access to celadon/saffron before we fight him on the ss anne, like yeah the guards are thirsty when *we* get there but theres no proof they were when Blue got there before us. so he couldve had access to more captures, more evo stones, etc. like i know that this run uses the same rules as the player has but yknow, just saying that if in game trades are banned and level caps are in place, that means that the rival wouldnt have to follow the same rules so he could potentially go places we cant yet
I bet the rival challenged the guards to a bunch of pokemon battles, and they only end up thirsty because your rival tired them out so much.
RUclipsr : spends hours proving a random line in a pokemon game
Blue : I just rounded up bro
My stoned ass thinking you meant "can I beat rival if he's using 40 pkmn"... lord have mercy
Best Comment.
That would be funny as hell challenge.
I also assumed this and was really excited, but this video is good too i guess /lh
The level cap rule should not be a thing because Dugtrio is catchable. That your rival did not run into one or could not catch it is his own fault. Edit to add: even if a level cap would be used, a more reasonable one is 30, because that is the level that any trades will still be completely obedient at this point in the game. Rationale could include The Rival using those mons but not wanting to break that threshold before Erika, so he boxed them before running into the player character.
That also offsets the fact he is probably not version-limited. However, that also means lore-wise he can also get: Mankey/Meowth, Oddish/Bellsprout, Ekans/Sandshrew. That's not to mention he probably has access to different/more in-game trades and the pilfering of all the Moonstones before you get a chance at any.
He might also have picked up the other two starters somewhere from the same people who give them to you in Yellow.
There is also no reason to believe that just because he has an overleveled dugtrio doesn't mean he is going to use it. The assumption that he will always have his 6 best pokemon on him is deeply flawed. At this stage the rival is equally early in his career as you are and likely heavily experimenting with what does and doesn't fit in his long term plans. He makes regular statements about working towards his strongest possible team for the purpose of becoming champion. This is fundamentally different to assembling your strongest possible team for SS Anne.
We know there is no dugtrio in his champion team. So either he has the dugtrio and hasn't taken the time to assess it yet, or he has already made the decision to not use it long term, in which case any time spent training it is time not spent finding final team members and training them.
If you're goals are firmly set in the long term, you will sacrifice short term gains to achieve them, and that's exactly what Dugtrio is in this situation. The lv 28 dugtrio is a huge powerspike that will fall off in a gyms time. Useful in the moment, not nearly as useful later.
@@91Caesar Exactly. He was playing the long game and the consequence of that was him not loving and caring for his pokemon enough while Red is (forced to) and that's how he ended up with better pokes in the end. One was focused on the end goal, one on the journey.
Gary: "Are you calling me a liar?"
Ash: "I ain't calling you a truther."
Tbh, even if droomish’s rulest was followed, it’s entirely possible the rival could be approximating and been like “ehh, close enough”
And Gary is *absolutely* the type to round up when boasting.
Who would have thought the character whose main characteristic is his cockiness would over inflate his achievements a bit?
Something to consider with the 2 Moon Stone thing is he could've just picked them up before we could, similarly he could've gotten some trades done before we could
Yea, who’s to say we can only get 2 because he already picked up 4.
Theoretically he might also have gotten to different routes before we did by leveraging his granddad's status, so it feels kind of off to judge him by the rules we as players have to adhere to.
he left us those last two moon stones out of pity haha
@@gwammeh yea who's to say Snorlax didn't plop down right after he got back or he already had a rod to fish with etc; something like that
Either way though, it's definitely possible haha
Pretty sure rivals dialog says: I caught 40 kinds pal
8:54 there's also a nidoran trade south of cerulean in the underground pass building
9:50 well, if we talk about our rival, then this sentence doesn't matter. Moonstone (and all other stones) are single time use, so who knows, maybe there were more moonstones and our rival took them - at least in number needed to evolve all his pokemons, and left the ones found by us. ;)
I’ve seen Droomish’s video and found it very entertaining and within the rule set he used that conclusion made sense. Jrose’s parameters are different but also logical. I just find it funny how Blue’s one line is a subject of debate.
Yea both arguments are valid:]
I don't know about that, droomish has so many rules that of course he reached his conclusion.
@@lebastion7812I preferred droomish.for the exact opposite reason, jrose throws out all rules so of course he got his conclusion
@@psychodoctor5370 They both seem stupid. Droomish just imposed a bunch of artificial rules that the game itself doesn't follow (like suggesting the rival can't trade or that the rival is limited to version-exclusives, both of which are canonically false given he has an Alakazam and still has an Arcanine in Blue if he didn't take Charizard). Jrose made a 1-hour video reply to essentially just say "Your ruleset is bogus"
Blue is on his own journey, always a couple of steps ahead. Who knows what trades he took advantage of that aren't available to you, because you're the runner-up? Who knows how many stones he found along the way?
I think one thing we all know, though: after the SS Anne, he has one fewer Pokémon. See you in Lavender Town, Blue!
The problem I have with the argument about limited items and one time only trades is this: The rival has been ahead of us the entire game. Who's to say he didn't encounter some trades and items along the way that we don't have access to?
For all we know, he has a Super Rod and came across leaf stones along the way.
I always operate by a rule that NPCs aren’t bound to the same restrictions that the player is, like trainers who swim can encounter more Water types like Psyduck without needing Surf, some trainers might have better fishing rods, aren’t bound by “version exclusives” since trainers can have them regardless of your game, find different resources than we do, have traded with people we don’t meet, etc. Blue gets an Alakazam so clearly he’s traded before, so maybe he can do some other things we can’t at that point.
This whole thing basically boils down to "I can't swim, and anyone who says they can are lying".
Just because it's possible, it doesn't mean he still isn't lying lol
I always wondered what the hell was Blue doing when battle him the fifth time. He was literally down the hall from Giovanni...
I honestly always assumed Gary had that 40. When I was young playing, seeing his name on the statue of the entrance (every gym) of his name before mine EVERYTIME triggered me lol so with that, that means he’s beaten every gym leader even when ya walk out of pallet for the first time 😂. Funny little thing to consider
Ha, Well I can see your point, but I always assumed his name was first on the statues because he's ahead of you and isn't dealing with Team Rocket so he's getting to places faster than you too, kinda makes me wonder what his run through the game is like. 😄
I now like to think rival just asked his grandpa for a bunch of evolution stones
I can believe the rival would have access to his OWN in-universe or lore-consistent trades, and even that he'd get an early gift pokemon that we didn't. I can believe he wouldn't necessarily bring his best to the fight with us, AND I can believe he'd have a way to access more moon stones before we do. I just don't see him grinding for hours in Diglett Cave, anything beyond level 22 is a stretch.
So no Venusaur
@@Xurikk Especially since his starter's still at stage 2 right after that.
If you can already accept that he isn't limited to version-exclusives and would have likely had access to various evolution stones earlier, likely could enter Saffron earlier, and all that jazz, then I think it's reasonable to think that he had already caught 40 wildly unique pokemon from all over the place and they're all low level. I agree with you that he probably isn't rocking any level 40's on his team but could still easily have gotten 40+ unique species just by having access to more in-universe content.
As I stated previously, Trainers aren't limited by version exclusives, only player. So he could access any version exclusive. That's why trainers in any version can have in their teams version exclusives from the other games while also not limited by having a limited amount of evolution stones
Yeah even as a kid I took that as the devs saying "you could hypothetically have 40 pokemon in your dex by now". Or whatever. Like the little prizes from Oaks assistants were saying you SHOULD have X number of pokemon by now.
I remember the last time someone brought this up i went over the entire dex and found a way blue could honestly have gotten 50 pokemon by that point.
Nobody cared to hear it out for some reason. Wish pokemon had a scene where you get 50 mons and blue is shocked you actually got that many while he has at most less than 20
i want hear it let us hear it
@@somechupacabrawithinternet8866 well basically I went through similar ways a player can get every pokemon with the base game like jrose. Only difference was how trade EVOS could be gotten much sooner and the moon stone trick as well.
I got about the same numbers but I thought blue said 50 so I was looking for every pokemon and place to get to that number not 40
Honestly, if we're going to assume he can't have any Pokemon higher than level 20 based on this encounter we may as well assume that since we only ever see him use maybe 10 Pokemon that he only ever caught that many. Which would be a silly thing to assume
Yeah, I agree, that's a very low object permanence view; "if I don't see it, it's not real".
Also, why is level 20 even chosen here? Wouldn't you base it off of his lowest level Pokemon(16) instead? By their logic he shouldnt use a level 16 pokemon over a level 17 pokemon.
There's also the bit of abstraction about what levels actually mean.
As players, we have magic bars that tell us how damaged our pokemon are, which is a bit silly; far more silly than assuming Gary's pokemon has been battling on the ship, so it's hypothetical peak performance of say, level 28, is being reduced to 20 because of fatigue, instead of being sent out at lower than maximum health, because that's more work. Since apparently, otherwise we are to believe that the people we meet on routes have not taken a single point of damage from any wild pokemon or other trainers in the area, and/or are dropping a 6 pack of full restores and max elixirs before they fight us, every time.
The level 20 cap makes sense for the argument though. It's REALLY stretching it to say he has higher but isn't using them.
I think a bragger wouldnt keep all these supposely higher level mons in the box.
The only thing I would like to disagree with is evolving the dtarter to the 3rd stage, since the rival does have a charmaleon
Its more that the claim was "Its impossible for him or the player to have that money pokemon by this point in the game" which has the video shows is false.
Yeah, but even if we assume he doesn't have Pidgeot, Alakazam, or his fully evolved starter, he can still have over 40 kinds of Pokémon
@@JonnySpec Hence, "the only thing I would like to disagree with." He wasn't disagreeing with any of that.
Maybe Gary miscalculated by forgetting to put a comma in the middle of that number.
let's make this super easy:
You get 2 in game trades, rival gets 2 in game trades. You both get to follow the exact same rules.
Barring in-game trades is unfeasible anyway, we know for certain that Blue trades. He has an Alakazam.
Jrose flexing his Gen 1 knowledge will always be entertaining!
COUNT SIGHTING MY BELOVED!!
Personally I don't think the rival is playing the same game as us, and is stated to always be 1 step ahead of us. I don't think he's lying regardless of how we figure it. Plus based on how he uses a trade evo later, I don't think we can nick the possibility he has traded, found stones we don't have access to because he picks them up first, etc.
I guess it's odd he doesn't have a full team, but he could be nerfing himself and not wiping you with a full team of level 30. Maybe for ego stroking reasons (seems the type), maybe because he is pulling a nemona and sees pounding down someone with overleved mons as a cheap win and unsportsmanlike (also probably in-character). Idk. As previously said, I think we are just playing very different games.
For the leveling thing, because rival only has 4 pokemon, 2 of them could be fainted from fighting the trainers in SS Anne (some people don't fight you, so those could have been the ones he fought). And because Dugtrio is obtainable at a higher level, he could have just fought all trainers with it but fainted it. By the time he reaches the captain, he only has 4 left and because revives are not avaiable at that point, he just fights you with 4 (he would have potions to heal).
Still, could be an oversight, could be an aproximation of what devs intended, or even a translation error. Also, because the rival ends up with an Alakazam on his team, trades are 100% fair.
Your naming choices remain on point with "Mythbyster" and "Truth" 😂
Just using logic: Rival is carrying 3 pokemon. None of them are evolved. It is highly likely that Rival is lying - or he is not a very bright individual.
While the player can get 47 pokemon, we know the rival can only get 46. Because neither you nor him can breed your starter, and his starter is only second stage. Therefore, he can't have his starter's third stage evolution yet.
But the rival gets first dibs on items. He can potentially have any number of moonstones, cut, fishing rods, etc.
People making this argument should also realize blue is is not the player. He is ahead he could have done more trades, stones, gift pokemon, or even have a better fishing rod that we cant do since he was their first.
He could also swim (although probably not all the way to cinabar or sea foam) and benefits from time passing (maybe snorlax was passable, maybe the roads into saffron weren't closed, etc.).
Imagine if they also made Nidobishop, Nidorook, and Nidoknight alongside Nidoking and Nidoqueen?
omg never thought I'd be in a Jrose video! Thanks for all the vids and keep up the good work!
Always found it funny that this little bit of throwaway dialogue sparked so much lively debate. At the end of the day, I think the intent is to make the player feel like the rival is still way ahead of them, which they absolutely would be to pretty much anyone playing through the game
Also if he just uses 4 pkm that could just mean 2 fainted already
Or if he was catching and leveling them as aggressively as shown here to fill the dex, it makes more sense he'd have open slots in his party. The second he caught something, he could level it alongside his team!
One thing you didn’t mention is that he gives you cut, so by the time you fight him and he says this, he had access to everything behind cut trees.
Also, tho logic that “in game trades are finite” also should be applicable elsewhere, but in reverse. Using a strand of that logic, he went through mt. Moon first so probably found more moon stones and left us just two. There probably were something like 10 NPCs willing to trade Pokémon, but he did all the trades before we met the NPCs and just left us with farfetchd and Mr mime.
Great vid!
Cut opens the route east of Cerulean to Rock Tunnel(he has theoretical access to Flash as well) and that gives potential access to Magnemite, Voltorb, Machop and Onix between versions, and much more than that if you grant he could go through Rock Tunnel(but I think this is going kind of far).
I always took what Blue(Gary) said with a grain of salt because he is only a kid. In my circle of people, there were always people who would tell a lot of tall tales and that is what I always put Gary in that vein like "I could do that with my eyes closed" or "I got a million of them". He is confident, cocky and has a bravado and always likes to toot his own horn. I never thought he caught 40 kinds by that point because it depends on what you mean by kinds. He could have caught multiples of one Pokemon, that may count as one in the Pokedex.
He did the Count impression! I never thought I'd be excited about a Count impression, but here we are, years into the Kanto Solo Challenges.
Some more arguments about the ruleset: It could be that he has overused certain pokemon, and they've been benched for struggle behavior. As for trading, just because one time trades exist, doesn't mean the rival didn't do any: you wouldn't have the option of those one time trades and wouldn't see them. Plus, leveling past level 20 for evolutions, even slightly, is sufficient and has the best arguments for why it is conceivable for the rival to do, so trades don't need to matter.
Trainers also occasionally have Pokemon at levels the player can't. Maybe he evolved some early with his superior pedagogical technique.
There are trainers in the game with Pokemon that are evolved but are below the evolution level. This proves that canonically at least in the first game, Pokemon's evolution level is an in-game mechanic. Pokemon may be capable of evolving earlier.
I love when Jrose goes back into detective mode, would love more videos in this style, keep up the good work!
You're gonna love the next few videos
@@Jrose11can you do Omastar next? I did a Red and Blue one with it, and beat Mewtwo's 3:03 time. I used the bike, though, so your time will be different, but it's a good Pokemon. I even did minimum battles for a little bit.
@@dawnsbuneary that's really cool!!!! 🔥🔥🔥
Jrose dismantling rival slander with FACTS and LOGIC
I'd say that if you follow some strict rules and you get to 38 or 39, I'd say that's still showing it's at least plausible, as the rival may have taken a slightly different path that allowed him to encounter slightly different pokemon and he had 1or 2 more options available to him to catch or evolve that the player didn't have. It's a fallacy to assume that the conditions that are true for the player must be an exact match for the NPC, whom we only meet at brief intervals, so presumably he's going different routes and in a different order then the PC is.
Gary is also more popular, if anything he got more gift pokemon and trade opportunities.
If you take some of the anime canon into account, then you also have to take into account the fact that Gary is canonically semi-rich. You also have to assume he very likely already has things like the fishing rods (you see him using a rod early in the anime), as well as a bag full of evolution stones. He also boasts about trading a bunch of pokemon at the SS Anne party.
The rival isn’t blocked by Snorlax, so he had more access to other areas.
Thanks to this analysis, it shows that 40 really was the perfect number. One a player COULD reach, but not one they were LIKELY to reach unless they played a specific way.