@smithplayspokemon I wouldn't be opposed to a forme or alternate evolution of Magikarp that matches some of the newer entries, the ones that call it a descendent of a much stronger ancestor. Come on Game Freak, unleash the Forbidden Magikarp
You need to obtain 50 Pokémon in your Pokédex to get the xp share in Pokémon R/B/Y. No idea why you dismiss it completely. Though i didn't know that it had a different name in english (Exp.All), because it was always called EP-Teiler in german.
as a Milotic ride or die trainer who always nabs one whenever possible I disagree completely, maybe not for the cold hard data but for the feeling of fulfilment you get when you finally get it there and the enjoyment of being one of the trainers that can say they go through the trials and tribulations for a Pokemon that truly is worth the effort both in style and in battle
For me it’s making space for it on my in game team. I don’t want to run surf on it (if physical special split is in the game). Meaning I’ll likely have to run something else that can use surf.
Mega Sunflora where it has a long Exeggutor-like neck and Mega Beedrill stats, but it uses Bullet Seed and Skill Link to endlessly shoot seeds for massive damage
Gyarados was such a great premise when it was first created, but these days I'm sick of seeing Magikarp flooding every body of water in every game, sitting there already at level 20 just winking and nudging as if what they're doing is still special or novel at all anymore
It’s still meant to be seen as a scam because Magikarp is very easy to catch once you get the old rod. Also remember this is Gen 1 and kids unfamiliar with Pokémon at the time probably felt cheated when the Pokémon they bought turned out to be incredibly weak. The idea is if they stick with their useless fish, they’d get a nice surprise.
I think your assessment of BW2 Volcarona is a little unfair. It's not just given to you, you have to go out of your way and explore for it in a completely optional area, and when you do get it it's not like the red Gyarados where it's immediately OP, it doesn't really learn good moves until the 50s and up
You can actually teach it Signal Beam right away from the move tutor in Driftveil, but yeah, the next good moves will be Psychic in route 13, after the sixth gym, heat wave and giga drain in Humilau City (8° gym) and then, before the league it will get Quiver Dance
I was thinking the same, it is balanced by its moveset and by the fact it isn’t always there (I’m sure it only shows up in the right season, like the static Mandibuzz/Braviary). It's not unreasonable for someone to have a playthrough where they just don’t run into it.
Agreed. Volcarona in B2W2 is not as good as it seems. You are stuck with no good or even mediocre fire moves until Fireblast at Lacunosa Town and then flamefrower around Ghetsis. For bug moves its Silverwind for a while, I think. There is the Psychic tm at some point and Signalbeam, Heatwave and Gigadrain at the move Tutor. Signalbeam for 4 Red pieces at Driftveil and the other two at Humilau for 10 yellow pieces each. At that point you have reached gym 8 and have put a lot of work into it. Its stronger than Gyarados (both before and after peak ingame stage) but way later with multible different tideous requirements to push it over the edge.
Absolutely. Volcarona is a good Pokemon to add to your team, but it's not overpowered. It only has mid moves for most of the game, and it does poorly in all of the following gyms. It's not an instant include like Gyarados, and there is a very legitimate argument to picking Emboar over it. Meanwhile, Gyarados's mere existence serves as a nerf to most water starters.
125 special attack on sunflora sounds like a great idea man! i sure wish someone would make a romhack of crystal that did that. that would be very cool and awesome.
Have you played exceeded emerald? It overhauls a ton of stuff and adds more abilities and stuff, in my run I used sunflora and it has an ability where it gains fire type in sunlight and I used a shell bell and solar beam with sunny day and it was so powerful and fun.
@@richardduncan2954the guy who made this video has his own ROM hack of Crystal... I'm sure it wouldn't be very hard to update a few stats and release a new patch.
The fact that Gyarados is a Pokemon that looks like a Dragon but is not a Dragon, yet it is a Flying type that cannot use Fly, makes me think that the Pokemon Company really doesn't like the Magikarp line one bit. They called it pathetic, useless, and horribly weak all of its life, and when it finally evolved they called it Atrocious. Why are they so mean to Magikarp? Why are we still here? Just to suffe-
You can actually get Applin’s evolutions before the 4th gym because of an event in Hammerlocke where after “giving” a boy at the left exit of the town your Applin, he will give you a sweet/tart apple depending on your game. He then gives you your Applin back after some more dialogue.
"Sort of ruined" is a very interesting way to say "defined an archtype". XD As long as I can remember I always played pokemon with traditional nuzlocke rules. You really get attached when you use these little guys.
"Ruined" mostly seems to just mean "unbalanced" in this case-- when Gyarados is too easy to obtain, casual players tend to over rely on it since it's basically the path of least resistance. Which, I mean- I don't think there's really a "wrong" way to play Pokemon--- but treating the game as pseudo-solo run probably isn't what Gamefreak intended hhh
Re: Gen 1 Gyarados, it's worth mentioning that resource management in dungeons/routes was a much bigger part of Gen 1's difficulty thanks to the much more limited bag space and long stretches with no healing. So absolutely stomping all the early game trainers isn't a benefit that should be understated.
Gen1 definitely has "resource management", but to call it difficulty is a bit of a stretch. Was able to easily beat the game as a very young kid without looking up any guides.
There aren't enough relevant items in gen 1 for me to feel like that was really a problem. If you put the things you aren't using in the pc and just have a bag full of basic necessities, the worst pickup you're gonna miss out on is usually gonna be like...a nugget or a potion.
@@Namingway248 Yeah, but that's... arguably a good thing? Forcing players into decisionmaking scenarios used to be the core experience of most non-action games. Either you're preparing before going into a dungeon, or making a call as you find an item. Its "Difficulty" like hitting obvious switches in a Zelda dungeon are "Puzzles." Its not actually hard, but its a sort of obstacle that completes a gameplay loop. An easy decision is the core of most classic Nintendo games, Really- though most of them involve more precision timing.
Shout out to Gen 7 Rufflet and Vullaby. Obtained on the first island, won't evolve until the literal end of the game, but have lower bst than the starter you evolved 20 levels ago.
@@diegomedina9637it was because of the exp system used in those games where you'll get a lot more exp if you defeat higher level pokemon unlike previous gens where every pokemon has a set exp value when defeated, this unfortunately means that evolution levels were made kind of stupidly high because of it
Yeah this theory just barely hangs on. Based on his logic and examples You can take any 2-stage evolution and say it’s “inspired” by Gyarados. Heck even if it’s a 3-stage like Gardevoir or Slaking just act like the middle stage doesn’t exist by lumping it in with the first stage.
15:35 They refused to make it a dragon then refused to give it water attacks until lvl 40 and 0 flying moves until platinum and even it's through a move tutor. Even to this day Gyarados can only learn 2 flying type moves: Hurricane and bounce and only one in current gen 9. But no, it's not a dragon, it's a flying type🙄
The whole HGSS section is missing one crucial fact, the route before Lake Of Rage, you can repel to get a wild, level 50 Magikarp. With 1 Rare Candy you can get in Ecruteak City, you have a level 51 Gyarados after the 4th gym
@@vSilentangel On route 43 in HGSS, if you surf, you can encounter only Magikarp. They can be encountered between levels 5 and 25, or at exactly 50 (probably meant to be a joke encounter). If you use a repel with a level 26 or higher Pokemon (not hard if you beat Morty), you can make it so that you ONLY encounter that level 50 Magikarp.
@andrewjones7329 lack of badges only affects traded pokemon. There's no issues with obedience and, as I said, picking up the (hidden) rare candy in Ecruteak (just south of the water), that's an easy level 51 Gyarados for the rest of the game
The late evolution levels seemed reasonable in the original Black and White. The idea was that the pokemon would evolve when they catch up to the level you're supposed to be at at the point you catch them. The levels just seem *really* weird in literally any other context including Black and White 2.
It's a problem of GF stagnating the evolution level when plucking Pokémon in different contexts. Braviary & Bisharp evolving at level ~50 isn't an issue when you catch Rufflet/Pawniard near that level anyway. But Gen 6 changes the context in which you catch them. Before even attaining the second gym, the games give you a level 12 Rufflet. It's an issue now because while the Pokémon catch place is changed, its evolution level isn't. That's not a problem with Gen 5, but a problem with future generations, GF has shown they'll change evolution methods like with Glaceon & Milotic, so it's weird.
Yeah, it mostly worked in B&W because of the way they changed exp and how most stuff you evolved at level 50 you could catch at like level 40. Then in every game since they are just weirdly high level evos compared to everything else. Gamefreak should just go back and lower those levels by like 10%-20% across the board.
Hey Pat, haven't watched your channel in probably near a decade your editing is incredible and you're very good at narrating, this is just a very well together put video. Great work.
I REALLY like the concept of this video! Looking at a Pokemons game design within the context of its adventure and how overwhelming or underwhelming in light of the region and other pokemon and challenges is so nice. Seriously, great job!
Wait until you go into gen 4 and realize this Gyarados can just run like 3-4 different good sets and you have ZERO CLUE what it could be cooking until its too late.
I was a senior in HS when Gen 4 dropped and I didn't even realize the physical special split until Gyarados learned Aqua Tail and Ice Fang. I thought wow these special moves are hitting hard.
@@AudioGAWDDoes the game even tells you about that? I don't really remember. It does have the special and physical icons but I think you literally have to figure out on your own.
@@diegomedina9637 The games never tell you anything, actually. And if they do, the explanations are all fuzzy and vague. I imagine most Pokémon players find out about these mechanic changes through the Internet first, I know that was the case with me.
I felt a Gen 2 parallel to the "Hidden Dragon" is Zubat. Available very early, terrible starting moveset but with some patience and keeping it in your party, Zubat evolves at Level 22 into Golbat then it treated well: You get a Crobat at Level 23!
In HGSS, I think I only gave my Zubat 2 haircuts and it probably got KO'd a couple times, but it still evolved into Crobat basically right after evolving into Golbat. It's definitely easier to get happiness in Gen 4, but I still don't think you need to spam haircuts to get a Crobat early.
Re: Volcarona at least requires you to explore deep into the relic castle, unlike the red gyarados which is a mandatory story encounter. Not only that but its moveset stinks. You’re stuck with fire spin for the longest time
@@metalvyvern9531so you can get incinerate immiedtelty via grinding battle Points (reasoanble investment cost imo) for shards you get signal beam immediately (bug move lol) Then psychic in the long routes before Gym 7 and the finally heat wave just before 8th gym. It's actually more reasonable than you think in the context of a B2W2 playthrough.
I fun trick for the emulator players: the Pokémon randomizer has an option for "Allow Impossible Evolutions." As the name implies, it makes evolutions possible when the game mechanics or playing on an emulator wouldn't allow (at least not easily). In the case of the original four trade evolutions (Alakazam, Golem, Machamp, and Gengar), they just evolve at a later level.
Best 500 I ever spent. I got red version when I was 4 years old, and i played it with my mother. I named the player character "MOMMY" and everything. She insisted that we should train Magikarp, as we watched the anime together too back then. We got Gyarados on our way to Bill, and then completely dominated everything else in the game. Whenever my mother was in control, she trained other pokemon, used tactics and items, and generally played tbe game like you were supposed to. I, on the other hand, just used Gyarados for everything when I was in control. When we beat the champion, I think most of our team was in the late 30s, but Gyarados was around 70. (I don't know how long i spent in victiry road, but it had to have been days) Then I went on to grind against the elite four and champion until Gyarados hit level 100, all before we even realized Cerulean Cave was right there. Gyarados holds a special place in my heart, even if it isn't on my teams.
@@SomeGuy-ty7kr even still, if you think it takes any special amount of nudging to get a small kid interested in something like a pokemon game then you clearly have forgotten how it feels like to be kid.
I've actually always viewed Ralts as more of a psuedo-starter rather than a hidden dragon. A line that closely follows the evolution curve of traditional starter Pokemon (which is normally 16 to 36) and ends up at a similar power level to your starter Pokemon. I suppose it could be both. The psuedo starter archetype is one I don't see talked about much but there's a few Pokemon that embody it. I usually class any 3 stage Pokemon that has it's first stage evolution between 15-20 and it's second stage evolution between 30-40 to fall within this archetype. It would be cool to see you cover it if you need some inspiration!
@@mugiwara4604Even with crobat, id categorize Zubat as just "early route cave encounter" like Geodude. Embodies just straight up the animal it is (like other early route pokemon)
I honestly wish I was half as expressive as you when I spoke. This is a super fun and interesting video-you earned a new sub!! Keep up the great work my dude!
My first pokemon game was ruby and I remember first discovering that magikarp evolved into gyrados. Stuff like that is what made me love playing pokemon as a kid. As I got further into the game and discovered milotic it was always a bit mystery to me and my brother because it had no location in the Pokédex and you can’t register a feebas unless you find one in the wild so you’d never know it existed or that milotic needed to be acquired by evolving one. Finally solving that mystery one day had me and my brother incredibly excited. Because of this experience and the possibility that other kids out there had a similar one, I’d say they did the magikarp and feebas distribution correctly in gen 3z
True! I’d argue that’s still not without its cost though. In the first version of the script, I did cover this, but it was just too much to talk about so I scrapped it.
@smithplayspokemon No worries. And I want to make it clear I also forget about the daycare. It's far more personal to put in the effort. Side note, I have taken to calling my Magikarp "Steve" as a reference to Steve Rogers. I simply enjoy the parallel.
The fact they had to make it Water/Flying instead of water/dragon deeply angered me. I understand though, they wanted the dragon typing to be sacred back then and water/dragon Gyarados would have been completely and utterly busted in Gen 1.
@@mn_seahawk25thehawk64 Gyarados isn't Dragon type but Flying, because based on Koinobori (carp streamer) windsocks. And he doesn't learn Fly, because it's a sea monster so it doesn't land, but can bounce from water to water (Mantyke too learn Bounce instead of Fly).
They really need to alter the model, I’ve seen soemone “can’t remember their acount name” But they chnaged gyaradoes model to be just like johto remakes
@@mn_seahawk25thehawk64 Ironic considering offensively, dragon type was garbage. The only thing weak to dragon is dragon, and even then, there was only a single dragon type move in gen 1, which dealt fixed (and pathetic) damage.
I think you're on to something, the first time I played gen 2 I didn't know Zubat had gotten a new evolution and was just training one because it has good type advantage for a lot of the early game. My shock when I first saw Golbat evolving was immediately replaced by awe at its great stats, and it could learn Fly which its predecessors couldn't. From then on it became a mandatory team member in every gen 2 playthrough for me.
I’ve been subbed to your channel since you were at 250 with my old RUclips account (I was a die hard zombies player) and even got to play with you once! I sucked, but man I didn’t even realize this was you. Congrats on being so successful on the RUclips world!
I loved this video! Really looking forward to seeing more like it, and I’m glad I found this channel just in time for this type of content haha One thing I’d ask- would you count wishiwashi and palafin as weird in-battle versions of this trope lol
As someone who played B2W2, the "retroactive babies" feeling is somewhat solved with its wild Azuril, Riolu, Magby/Elekid, and Mantyke options. At least in the first four's cases, they are in early-game locations.
@@LazurBeemzThat’s the fun part, it doesn’t evolve to be better. Normal Palafin is awful, but if you switch it out and back in, it gets box legend stats. It needs to be HIDDEN to become the dragon
God I wanted to use one so badly, the evolution tactic is. A JOKE 😭 Istfg in next games better learn a special fighting move to evolve while holding an item and in afternoon time Makes sense sure wild to evolve but remember glarian yamask and such are a thing
@@___________0Z0X altaria is a good substitute to salamence in gen 3 if you didnt want the pseudo legend. and in gen 6/7, at least it got a mega, and a good one at that. flygon got no love ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ none official anyway; i know they wanted to give him one but... they didnt lol
The Gyarados Theorem is exactly why whenever I play a Pokémon game, I limit my team to be just locals. I don't use previous gen mons on my teams In that same note, always pick Greninja. For some reason there's like 3 Water Types in the Kalos dex and one of them becomes a Dragon upon evolution
@@arkaua It's a reference to a pokemon player that lost a tournament because Gyarados flinched him, he then wrote some words (starting with "unfortunate...") and never came back to competitive pokemon after
@arkaua There's a former competitive player named Lavos that went up against a Gyarados in a tournament. He had several instances of bad luck trying to deal with it, resulting in a loss. He quit competitive after He didn't just quit though. He also left behind a post explaining why he left, and it read like the manifesto of a super villian. It starts with "Unfortunate doesn't begin to describe my series..." and became a copy pasta meme.
@BigPanda096 XP share was in Gen 1 though you would just have to start with magikarp and swap immediately to your heavy hitter and rinse and repeat. It wasn't that bad I was 9 when gen 1 games hit the US so my ass had all the time in the world. 🤣
@@staydetermined6717 In the Japanese version, "Splash" is more like "Hop". The English translator wanted to call it something more like "Flop" or "Flail", but the higher-ups overruled him. Which is why later pokemon like Hoppip and Spoink use Splash despite not being water-types.
What if they make Great Tusk and Iron Treads split evos in the future Like you evolve into Great Tusk with an Ancient Relic item, and into Iron Treads with a Cybernetic Armor item (Y'all can make the names for the items, I'm not very creative LOL)
It may be pokemon yellow, I'm not sure, but I swear I remember being able to fish up a level 15 gyarados behind the safari zone warden's house with a super rod
In Black and White, you absolutely will not have a Volcarona before the Elite Four unless you catch the underleveled one in Relic Castle only in BW2 then trade it over to BW1. If you use the Larvesta you get as an egg, it won't evolve until 58, many levels above the Elite Four. The Volcarona in Relic Castle, in that case, is much more comparable to a hidden legendary like the Birds from Gen 1, except, unlike them, Volcarona has pretty lackluster moves at that point and few good TMs you can give it until quite a bit later, and it requires a trade on top of that. Edit: Flamethrower TM is in post-game so the best Fire move you can give your Volcaron before post-game is the unreliable Fire Blast. Similarly, the best Bug move you can get before post-game is Silver Wind, since it Bug Buzz isn't available until well above the Elite Four's level.
Gyarados is actually part of a trio in Gen 1 which I'm surprised you didn't mention. Arcanine and Exeggutor are both stone evolutions instead of grinding to level 20, but they also both have pretty weak first phases and a slow growth rate, and since they don't learn any moves once evolving they require serious investment in a different manner. The three also all fill out the rival's team for the starters he didn't take, and are on the removed Professor Oak teams. Arcanine in particular is also referred to as a Pokemon from "Chinese legend" in early Pokedex entries and its stripes seem to play into the classic chinese Tiger/Dragon motif with Gyarados. Eggy is my personal favorite of the three though because you can evolve it right away and get the insane power boost, but then you're stuck with the inaccurate Hypnosis, but if you grind it all the way up 48, which will probably be roughly around the Elite 4 without comical amounts of grinding, you get the much more accurate Sleep Powder. Sleep Powder on a Pokemon with 455 (580 in modern terms) base stats, the ridiculous (in gen 1) Grass/Psychic type combo, and with the busted Gen 1 sleep mechanics.
I think its also worth mentioning that Gholdengo's evolution method replaces the Gyarados level grind with hunting for coins that better suits the open world nature of Scarlet/Violet and thus preserving the grind aspect.
I was disappointed they didn't mention Palafin! Similar concept, with a 315 as Finizen, but get it to level 38 (and discover it's nearly impossible to figure out evo method) and you get a 650 titan that is still somewhat kept in check by it's ability.
I appreciate how thorough you were in this video. I would add that I always appreciate a pokémon more if I've had to put the effort into training them myself
Idk about anyone else but the reason black and white are my favorite is that everything they did everything that was experimented with. It still feels new. I don’t know how to explain it better
“Everything they did everything that was experimented with” my guy, what??? You don’t know how to explain it better? You didn’t even explain anything that makes sense at all 😂
I feel it's worth noting that the level 35 Volcarona isn't even that good for a playthrough. It gets virtually no good moves until you finally get the Flamethrower TM right before Victory Road. Sure, you can _maybe_ give it Signal Beam, but most of its level up learnset is physical. Better off using literally any other Fire type or Bug type. Edit: I'm aware of the various Tutor moves, but some are late-game and others just don't feel worth using up shards. My biggest point was a lack of reliable STAB options.
Black 2 gives the Wide Lens in one of the buildings on Route 4 to make Fire Blast an option and it does get Giga Drain via tutoring, but yeah using Volcarona in B2W2 was a lot trickier than I thought it would be 💀
It gets psychic via tm, heat wave and giga drain via tutoring, it's moveset is not physical, is just REALLY weak moves til lv 50 (and whirlwind for whatever reason) It sure is tricky, but man does it feel good to sweet the entire elite 4 just with it
I learn this from Chuggaconroy. You can explore Relic Castle and battle Volcarona at lvl. 35. But don't capture it. Beat it, beat the Pokemon League, start postgame and come back to the Relic Castle where Volcarona will respond, but it'll be at lvl. 70. That way it'll have those Special Stab moves without grinding it. So you can capture it there.
@@jaretco6423 While I also heard it from Chuggaaconroy, I actually heard it first from MandJTV, who tried using it in a Bug-only playthrough, and Volcarona wound up being the worst member of his team. It's a shame too, because this was the only time Volcarona hasn't been a post-game Pokémon. Level 59 is simply unreasonable, and I can't fathom why Game Freak made so many Unova Pokémon evolve so late.
@codename618 I understand. But at the same time though, I get why they did that. Volcarona is kinda O.P. and if it had all those Stabs moves, he would break the game.
I would argue Wishiwash doesn't count because in a vacuum of Pokemon knowledge, Wishiwashi isn't that hidden. You first encounter Wishiwash in the area of the water trial, where in original Sun and Moon, Wishwashi is the Totem pokemon. You don't really have a chance to discover Wishiwashi's potential on its own before the game tells you, unlike Magikarp, Ralts, and others who if you stick with them, you'll discover their potential before they start showing up in trainers' parties. That and the Wishiwashi you get are already level 10-15 (10-21 in USUM when fishing in bubbling spots), so it's not nearly as much of a climb to level 20 when its ability triggers.
@@finalbossbowser It probably doesn't count, but I still think it deserved an honorable mention like many other Pokemon that were mentioned in the video
No because wishiwashi IS the dragon. The whole point is the carp evolving into the dragon. If wishi washi counts then archeops and darmanitian zen count. If those count then what about mimikyu and minior? Just no
@ None of those other Pokemon start out weak like Magikarp. Wishiwashi's ability does nothing until it reaches level 20, the same level that Magikarp evolves into Gyarados. Up until then, it's stuck with even WORSE stats than Magikarp, plus no ability of course. Wishiwashi is way closer to the hidden dragon archetype than the other Pokemon you mentioned, and I think it pretty clearly takes a lot of inspiration from Magikarp, being a mostly useless little fish that gets way stronger at level 20. It just puts its own spin on the idea, using an ability and a form change instead of an evolution.
Sunflora either needs a Mega Evo, Regular Evo, or rebrand and better stats. Add Fire-type, give it +15 to HP, DEF, and Sp. ATK, and +10 to Sp. DEF and Speed. Expand its move pool to not just Fire moves but give it a couple Ground, Fairy, Water, and Poison moves. Its abilities should be: Drought or Chlorophyll and Hidden Ability should be Flash Fire.
Worth mentioning, Sunflora does have Earth power and Sludge bomb. As for a buff, I’d love to see an evolution, a Grass/Fire one would be really great. Maybe even give it a fire Type signature move that isn’t literal fire
@@Castersvarog it always had a decent movepool, but the shit stats always made it useless, especially with how many commonly available grass types that are good exist.
24:00 I think Pokemon could’ve been so much better if every game was like black and white and had at least mostly new Pokemon in the regional Pokédex. It sucks the generation sold so poorly
He leveled up and it seems as though the added upper HP limit, didn't bring the current HP with it. Its like having a tube with water in it and you make the tube longer but the water stay the same
Yeah definitely sounds something he would do lmao I mean….sinooh is next if he wants to change things, OH GOD HE COULD GO FOR BDSM I MEAN BDSP 😭 That…would be interesting
I think you're differentiating yourself well by focusing on design choices and game design in the series as a whole. I enjoyed this video, keep at it and if you ever want to do that Platinum Legacy I'm here for it
None of what you said is Gyarados' fault. You're finding your own patterns and drumming up wild conclusions. You blame Gyarados and spent the entire video talking about other Pokemon. Pokemon, whom the majority of players will jump to over Gyarados in new generations. Hidden dragon is in your head. I resent your attack on Gyarados, and I sentence you to a gruesome end via Hyper Beam. Much love. Looking forward to more videos.
Not sure where Kingdra was in the gen 2 hidden dragon discussion. It shares the same base stats as Gyarados and Milotic, and it literally gains a dragon typing. It was clearly meant to be gen2 Gyarados, even if the effort from horsea/seadra compared to magikarp is not the same
16:00 Gyrados doesn’t overshadow milotic, gen 3 as a whole does. It’s annoying as hell to catch and your reward is an above average water type. Wanna know who else is an above average water type? Swampert, Tentacruel, Starmie. Too many options and too little reward for too much work.
Too many water type options in Gen 3, really. I make a point of trying a new water type main every time i replay those games just so i don't default to the water starter/gyarados.
@@Kite403 One water type that really surprised me was Swanna. (The Swan one from gen 5) While it kinda is a poor mans Pelipper, it's still surprisingly solid. Of course, it's no Gyarados, but it gets the job for flying and water needs done. It's also quite fast with a 98 base. (Well, for the time it came out, now 100 base is barely passable anymore)
@@LazurBeemz It doesn't unlock its ability until level 20, and its ability is basically an evolution with a massive base stat total increase. It's pretty clearly a Gyarados clone, except it reverts back at low hp.
Gen 6 I feel that Noivern was missed. Noibat was a low BST Pokemon that gets a HUGE stat increase upon evolving. Obviously agree that no matter what it will be overshadowed by the Lucario problem but still feels worth mentioning. Edit: would Finizen to Palafin also fit the archetype for gen 9?
A fun follow up video could be what you started bringing up with sunkern and togepi. The anti-hidden dragon where they start off harder than average (hard to obtain or hard to train), but pull the rug out from under you and not pay off in the slightest. Examples would be gen 1 jigglypuff (starts off with only sing, so you need to switch train), gen 2 yanma where it's a 1% encounter at a time where it's no longer useful. Gen 2 togepi and sunken for reasons you brought up. Gen 2 spinarak since you don't get ariados until after the 3rd gym, and the early game bug troupe falls off by gym 2 anyway. Gen 3 skitty and surskit with their rarity. Etc. Idk if there's enough pokemon for a whole video, but it might be fun to see the opposite of this to figure out which pokemon ends up being the worst hidden dragon
One thing you didn’t mention: how to _make_ Red Gyarados in Gen2, compared to Gen4. In Gen2, Shiny was calculated by your DVs (IVs for newer games). Most of your stats had to be middling, while Attack could be anywhere from max to 2. This means your Red Gyarados, in terms of Defense, Speed, and Specials were at 66% power. In Gen4, I don’t believe it was given a specific IV spread. Meaning it wasn’t guaranteed to be above mediocre.
Ever since Gen 3, shinyness isn't tied to your stats, it's a separate thing. That was done in Gen 2 to maintain backwards compatibility (same reason why male/female was tied to the Attack DV
I remember I tried to find a formula to evaluate a fitting evolution level for a Pokémon. This is after Generation 5's Pokémon evolution level nonsense. For Magikarp, it has a stats a level -7 Pokémon (yes, negative -7). Gyarados of a level 41 Pokémon. And the suitable level of evolution should be around level 33. Not level 41, in order to reward the use of underpowered Pokémon. I made basically a "level of encounter" depending of the stats. So even if Magikarp could evolve at level 20 (or 33), the designer should only make the player face a Gyarados when the expected level of the team reaches level 41, even if it is available at level 20 (or 33). Here a few example applied to other Pokémon. Sandile → (lv. 14) Krokorok → (lv. 33) Krookodile (instead of 29 and 40) Gothita → (lv. 18) Gothorita → (lv. 31) Gothitelle (instead of 32 and 41) Vanilite → (lv. 19) Vanilish → (lv. 36) Vaniluxe (instead of 35 and 47) Foongus → (lv. 26) Amoonguss (instead of 39) Frilish → (lv. 31) Jeliicent (instead of 40) Ferroseed → (lv. 30) Ferrothron (instead of 40) Klink → (lv. 24) Klank → (lv. 37) Klinklang (instead of 38 and 49) Axew → (lv. 22) Fraxure → (lv. 37) Haxorus (instead of 38 and 48, but I can apply a "Late Bloom" (kin to Dragonite), then it is 30 and 50) Mienfoo → (lv. 35) Mienshao (instead of 50) Rufflet/Vullaby→ (lv. 35) Braviary/Mandibuzz (instead of 54) Deino → (lv. 30) Zweilous → (lv. 55) Hydreigon (instead of 50 and 64 ("Late Bloom" formula)) Larvest → (lv. 40) Volcarona (instead of 59, or 50 with "Late Bloom" formula).
@@9Destra It is a long one. And it is highly empiric. It felt "good" enough for me. It need some adaptations. Mainly because of the early bugs, because it doesn't work when there are 2 weak Pokémon in a 3-stage evolutions. Basically: - I create a Ideal Encounter Level (IEL) for each Pokémon, depending of its Base Stats (BS). It is arbitrary. I made it [BS-250]/7. Bulbasaur, Ivysaur and Venusaur have an IEL of 10, 22 and 39. - To determine the evolution level of Pokémon, I pick 75% of the difference between the Pokémon and its pre-evolution, add 50% of the sum of IEL of the pre-evolved from and the New Evolution Level (NEL). - To that, if the NEL of the pre-evolution is superior to the IEL, I would add 75% of the difference of that value (that value is negative) in order to decrease the NEL of that Pokémon. - Some adaptation are made depending of the Pokémon. Starters has -5 (middle evolution) and -2 (final evolution) in order to decrease their evolution level. "Late Bloom" has +9. Some shenanigan about Friendship evolution, Trade evolution and Stone evolution when it is a 3-stage evolution in order to not have a "hidden dragon", that will increase the NEL of the middle evolution (I think I removed it for Friendship evolution though). Then, I allow myself to round those number to feel more nice. Technically, Zweilius and Hydreigon should be 31 and 56, but 30 and 55 feels nicer.
That's... interesting. I do think it's worth considering that the evolution-levels Game Freak chose especially for a lot of Unovas Pokemon are probably with the idea in mind, that players should be able to/have to use Pokemon in their base form for a while before being able to evolve them, although it does obviously make using them when they reappear at different points in later games absolutely depressing and they absolutely should've adjusted the evolution-levels for them, even though they've never done that before. Another way to fix this kind of issue would be to switch to a system where a Pokemon would only evolve after leveling up a certain amount of times without reaching a specific level, so lets say a starter would have to level up 11 times to evolve the first time, adding up to the classic level 16, but lets say if you bred your starter and trained a new one, it'd evolve level 12. That way late game unevolved Pokemon would be high level but you'd have to use them for some time in that form before they evolve, but you could also in theory breed them to evolve them easier, but if you wanted to use them on your team they'd be severely underleveled.
@@Justic_ I was about to suggest this system too; _Temtem_ does it this way, as well. I think training should be more important to the games again. The way it's handled now, wild Pokémon are only something you engage with to either catch or shiny hunt, and then you can just ignore them afterward-since XP gain is relatively easy with the abundance of XP candies and forced party-wide XP. Playing through a Gen 1 hack right now (Pure Green Version), and I've come to the conclusion that the pre-Gen 5 games had it right the first time. Streamlining XP gain made the games too easy (and makes it trivial to get "hidden dragons" like Gyarados), whereas the bottlenecks you'd encounter right before gyms were the games' way of soft-capping your team's levels. You _could_ raise your team to the leader's levels if you wanted, but at the cost of actual time (Fortunately, PureRGB has an instant text option that makes battling snappier and _way_ more fun). So, depending on the player, you might see that as worth your time, or a brick wall to your progress; and the amount of time you're willing to spend training new helpful teammates is going to be a different priority for every player, so a lot of players may just choose to tackle every fight underleveled, and that's where the challenge comes from. That's why, for many players, the older games seemed tougher than now. Which means the real problem the games have had with grinding is that battling in these games is just _really frickin' _*_slow;_* it lacks the proper amount of action, speed, and dynamism to keep the average player engaged, and _that's_ what makes it unfun. Coming back around to your point, I agree that players should have to actually train their Pokémon again for evolutions, rather than just getting a high-level base form and evolving it after leveling it once.
@@Justic_ You are right, but I have my personal theory. The new Exp. Formula screwed the progression. I will explain. From Generation 1 to 4, the Exp. Formula was unshared and unscaled. Without farming, there is a limited pool of Exp. The most effective strategy was to dump all the Exp. on the higher leveled Pokémon in your team. Which was your starter. An overleveled starter for all the game. As the team composition is limited (HM holder), the designer couldn't really offer tough challenge that would hard counter your starter. Because if they did, the player has to raise on wild Pokémon a new Pokémon to compensate. Thus, the introduction of "legendary in the scenario" since Generation 2: Lugia, Groudon, Dialgia... to cut the grind. Sinnoh's League offered somewhat of a challenge with more thought out Elite 4. They weren't great, but a high level starter with a legendary might not be enough. Gamefreak realized this, and wanted to push the players to try new Pokémon. For this, they saw the Exp. Formula as one of the main culprit and tried to fix it. In Generation 5, the Exp. Formula was unshared and scaled. And... it was a disaster. The idea was to give bonus Exp. on lower level Pokémon, but higher level receive less Exp.. Which was a problem. The Exp. was still in limited access, so you still cannot spread it out without needed to farm. So they made everything to make the new Exp. Formula works. Trainers have high level but weak Pokémon. The wild ones are as well high level but weak. This, in order for your Pokémon to raise faster. But it wasn't enough. The game had to literally introduce a Exp. Punching Bag to circumvent the Exp. problem: Audino. Yeah, around Badge 2, the game tells you about Audino farming for Exp. Since the game was a run for higher and higher level, the evolution level went higher and higher to fit that model. But... the Pokémon themselves stay weak for an absurd amount of time, and their evolution level don't really reward the investment. In Generation 6, they revert back. Unshared and unscaled. But... they introduce the Exp. Share after the first gym. And Exp. on catch. So basically, they made the overleveling starter strategy, except it applies for the whole team. THE WHOLE TEAM. If we add the Exp. on catch with the most expanded Pokédex ever, the +20% Exp. with Pokémon Amie, and O Powers. Yeah, if Gamefreak made everything to make the Exp. Formula works in Generation 5, in Generation 6 they didn't bother to try to balance it. In Generation 7, the Exp. is shared and scaled. Some people says it is bad, but I think it suits Gamefreak goal: cut the grind, allow your to try new Pokémon, prevent to "punish" the player if they dump all the Exp. on a bad Pokémon (like Chikorita), and easier to balance the game. If you are underlevel, the game will give you more Exp. If you are overleveled, the game will slow you down. The only "problem" left was the grind to level 100, which was basically solved by Exp. candy.
Also, kinda worth mentioning that Feebas and Milotic is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to get in ORAS (like, I went to spot and fish for lols and got it first try) But Mega Evo is a thing... so its fell off a 100 feet tall cliff
I absolutely love Gyarados, easily in my top five favorite pokemon of all time! But I really do get that fatigue of Gyarados dominance. I personally love adding my boy to my team, but the points really do make sense
Vikavolt and Crabominable in Gen 7 can also be considered to be this archetype. You have to drag their underevolved forms with you quite a while before you reach the places where they can evolve. Expanding a team slot for them for so long is a higher investment then training them to a certain level in a game where a full party exp share exists.
as an avid gen 3 enthusiast, you nailed it on the head why gyarados is hardly used early. You dont get surf till you are about 2/3rds the way done, and having a water STAB in your party is very helpful for flanery and magma. you can still fish upto a lvl 45 magikarp later game for intimidate with the super rod to become your new water STAB since there isnt any reliable water moves with the same level of power as all the water HMs in gen 3. Gyarados is still super strong for e4 and end game content.
I never used gyarados back in the day. the last pokemon game I played was platinum and I tried him out because I heard of the physical/special split and wanted to give it a try. he sure can commit war crimes but I never really liked gyarados that much. my favorite is gen 3 and I much preferred milotic over gyarados if I wanted a cool water type. speaking of cool water types, lapras can also commit war crimes, arguably more egregious ones due to being water/ice
XY had the gift pokemon problem that made so many other options useless. You get two starts (1 a mega), a Snorlax and level 10, a Mega Lucario and then they even throw in a free Lapras.
27:46 Unfortunately Level 35 Volcarona is kind of a waste of time, primarily because Volcarona has to wait FOREVER to get actually good moves. Until the 7th Gym, its only attacking moves worth caring about are Ember, Fire Spin, and Signal Beam. It is a rather unconventional Hidden Dragon purely because it's dead weight until the moment it finally gets good moves.
Sub to help us hit 200k or Gyarados will be the Gen 10 water starter.
@smithplayspokemon I wouldn't be opposed to a forme or alternate evolution of Magikarp that matches some of the newer entries, the ones that call it a descendent of a much stronger ancestor. Come on Game Freak, unleash the Forbidden Magikarp
You need to obtain 50 Pokémon in your Pokédex to get the xp share in Pokémon R/B/Y. No idea why you dismiss it completely. Though i didn't know that it had a different name in english (Exp.All), because it was always called EP-Teiler in german.
Why no mention of Togekiss in Platinum?
as a Milotic ride or die trainer who always nabs one whenever possible I disagree completely, maybe not for the cold hard data but for the feeling of fulfilment you get when you finally get it there and the enjoyment of being one of the trainers that can say they go through the trials and tribulations for a Pokemon that truly is worth the effort both in style and in battle
I was going to say the same if you didnt. Exp share item from Gen 1 definitely exists lol@@Faude18
The most difficult thing about gyarados is convincing yourself not to use it.
The easiest thing to do is just to use it.
Dont do the same mistake James of Team Rocket did.
Its super easy specialty given that there are alot of water types.
Unpopular opinion i'm not a big fan of Gyarados. So it's not a problem for me.
For me it’s making space for it on my in game team. I don’t want to run surf on it (if physical special split is in the game). Meaning I’ll likely have to run something else that can use surf.
"Imagine a game where Sunflora is buffed to be Gen2's Gyarados"
Says the man who literally has his own version of Pokemon Crystal...
Still hoping for a 2nd stage fire/grass evolution for the Sunkern line. Really let it harness the power of the sun.
You can’t think of everything sadly😮💨
@photoo848 play pokemon emerald seaglass. Sunflora is a grass/fire type with actual good moves and useable stats
sunflora needs a new evolution with better stats
Mega Sunflora where it has a long Exeggutor-like neck and Mega Beedrill stats, but it uses Bullet Seed and Skill Link to endlessly shoot seeds for massive damage
Gyarados was such a great premise when it was first created, but these days I'm sick of seeing Magikarp flooding every body of water in every game, sitting there already at level 20 just winking and nudging as if what they're doing is still special or novel at all anymore
"scam" 500 poke is equal to roughly 5 dollars. You paid that guy in the first generation 5 dollars for some goldfish :y that's not a scam
plus a pokeball is 200 already, so actually you paid him three dollars for a goldfish... that can turn into godzilla
It’s still meant to be seen as a scam because Magikarp is very easy to catch once you get the old rod. Also remember this is Gen 1 and kids unfamiliar with Pokémon at the time probably felt cheated when the Pokémon they bought turned out to be incredibly weak. The idea is if they stick with their useless fish, they’d get a nice surprise.
It’s a “scam” because the guy presents it as being awesome when it (as Magikarp) is useless
@@emblemblade9245 joke's still on him.
¥500 in 1995 is ¥575.83 accounting for inflation (since the value of Pokémon money was based on irl at the time and hasn't changed), which is $3.70.
What was it like growing up with Nicolas Cage as your dad?
I think your assessment of BW2 Volcarona is a little unfair. It's not just given to you, you have to go out of your way and explore for it in a completely optional area, and when you do get it it's not like the red Gyarados where it's immediately OP, it doesn't really learn good moves until the 50s and up
You can actually teach it Signal Beam right away from the move tutor in Driftveil, but yeah, the next good moves will be Psychic in route 13, after the sixth gym, heat wave and giga drain in Humilau City (8° gym) and then, before the league it will get Quiver Dance
I was thinking the same, it is balanced by its moveset and by the fact it isn’t always there (I’m sure it only shows up in the right season, like the static Mandibuzz/Braviary). It's not unreasonable for someone to have a playthrough where they just don’t run into it.
Agreed. Volcarona in B2W2 is not as good as it seems. You are stuck with no good or even mediocre fire moves until Fireblast at Lacunosa Town and then flamefrower around Ghetsis. For bug moves its Silverwind for a while, I think. There is the Psychic tm at some point and Signalbeam, Heatwave and Gigadrain at the move Tutor. Signalbeam for 4 Red pieces at Driftveil and the other two at Humilau for 10 yellow pieces each.
At that point you have reached gym 8 and have put a lot of work into it. Its stronger than Gyarados (both before and after peak ingame stage) but way later with multible different tideous requirements to push it over the edge.
Absolutely. Volcarona is a good Pokemon to add to your team, but it's not overpowered. It only has mid moves for most of the game, and it does poorly in all of the following gyms. It's not an instant include like Gyarados, and there is a very legitimate argument to picking Emboar over it. Meanwhile, Gyarados's mere existence serves as a nerf to most water starters.
It almost feels like hes planning to do another "ultimate romhack" for B2W2 next
125 special attack on sunflora sounds like a great idea man! i sure wish someone would make a romhack of crystal that did that. that would be very cool and awesome.
Yeah I bet it's really hard aswell
Have you played exceeded emerald? It overhauls a ton of stuff and adds more abilities and stuff, in my run I used sunflora and it has an ability where it gains fire type in sunlight and I used a shell bell and solar beam with sunny day and it was so powerful and fun.
@@richardduncan2954the guy who made this video has his own ROM hack of Crystal... I'm sure it wouldn't be very hard to update a few stats and release a new patch.
Plus add fire type because it's SUN flora. Duhhh
I am doing that now. Lol it's a great idea
The fact that Gyarados is a Pokemon that looks like a Dragon but is not a Dragon, yet it is a Flying type that cannot use Fly, makes me think that the Pokemon Company really doesn't like the Magikarp line one bit. They called it pathetic, useless, and horribly weak all of its life, and when it finally evolved they called it Atrocious. Why are they so mean to Magikarp? Why are we still here? Just to suffe-
I mean they’re clearly not that mean to it because it’s been consistently one of the best Pokemon for a playthrough since gen 4
Immunity to earthquake is a big plus
its part of the myth to be fair, as Magikarp fails its transformation due to being filled with Wrath.
@@melfice999Now imagine if it was Water Dragon with levitate
Gyrados can fly
You can actually get Applin’s evolutions before the 4th gym because of an event in Hammerlocke where after “giving” a boy at the left exit of the town your Applin, he will give you a sweet/tart apple depending on your game. He then gives you your Applin back after some more dialogue.
"Sort of ruined" is a very interesting way to say "defined an archtype". XD
As long as I can remember I always played pokemon with traditional nuzlocke rules. You really get attached when you use these little guys.
"Ruined" mostly seems to just mean "unbalanced" in this case-- when Gyarados is too easy to obtain, casual players tend to over rely on it since it's basically the path of least resistance.
Which, I mean- I don't think there's really a "wrong" way to play Pokemon--- but treating the game as pseudo-solo run probably isn't what Gamefreak intended hhh
Re: Gen 1 Gyarados, it's worth mentioning that resource management in dungeons/routes was a much bigger part of Gen 1's difficulty thanks to the much more limited bag space and long stretches with no healing. So absolutely stomping all the early game trainers isn't a benefit that should be understated.
Gen1 definitely has "resource management", but to call it difficulty is a bit of a stretch. Was able to easily beat the game as a very young kid without looking up any guides.
@@djbcubed I never said it was particularly tough, but as far as the game's design goes, that's where a lot of the challenge is meant to come from.
There aren't enough relevant items in gen 1 for me to feel like that was really a problem. If you put the things you aren't using in the pc and just have a bag full of basic necessities, the worst pickup you're gonna miss out on is usually gonna be like...a nugget or a potion.
@@Namingway248 Yeah, but that's... arguably a good thing?
Forcing players into decisionmaking scenarios used to be the core experience of most non-action games.
Either you're preparing before going into a dungeon, or making a call as you find an item.
Its "Difficulty" like hitting obvious switches in a Zelda dungeon are "Puzzles." Its not actually hard, but its a sort of obstacle that completes a gameplay loop.
An easy decision is the core of most classic Nintendo games, Really- though most of them involve more precision timing.
They mean challenge in the game design sense not in the dark souls sense
*"The Gyarados theorem"*
Those theorem videos are such a chatgpt generated bullshit.
A gaaaaaaaaame theory
"how great was Gyarados actually" FalseSwipeGaming
"And in this video we'll be looking at these competitive formats"
The Gyrthagorean Theorem?
Shout out to Gen 7 Rufflet and Vullaby. Obtained on the first island, won't evolve until the literal end of the game, but have lower bst than the starter you evolved 20 levels ago.
Skill issue
Gen 5 really was sh*t huh? Why are these amazing and kinda mid mons stuck as literal toddlers until like post game?
Noibat too...lmao
@@diegomedina9637it was because of the exp system used in those games where you'll get a lot more exp if you defeat higher level pokemon unlike previous gens where every pokemon has a set exp value when defeated, this unfortunately means that evolution levels were made kind of stupidly high because of it
mandibuzz carried gen 8 OU on her back so she makes up
Wait so you're telling me Pokemon get stronger if you evolve them? This franchise gets crazier all the time I swear
Yeah this theory just barely hangs on. Based on his logic and examples You can take any 2-stage evolution and say it’s “inspired” by Gyarados. Heck even if it’s a 3-stage like Gardevoir or Slaking just act like the middle stage doesn’t exist by lumping it in with the first stage.
@jirehjirehjirehjireh I mean I get the premise Pokémon that require investment to get going but once they do they're game changers
except for porygon 2, chansey, and dusclops.
Man, way to out that you didn't watch the video
15:35 They refused to make it a dragon then refused to give it water attacks until lvl 40 and 0 flying moves until platinum and even it's through a move tutor. Even to this day Gyarados can only learn 2 flying type moves: Hurricane and bounce and only one in current gen 9. But no, it's not a dragon, it's a flying type🙄
In shiny pearl Gyradose learns waterfall in the 20s which was surprising to me because I thought it was an HM but I ain’t gonna complain lol
The whole HGSS section is missing one crucial fact, the route before Lake Of Rage, you can repel to get a wild, level 50 Magikarp. With 1 Rare Candy you can get in Ecruteak City, you have a level 51 Gyarados after the 4th gym
Wait, what?
@@vSilentangel yep, surfing on Route 43, you can only encounter Magikarp between 5-25, or 1% chance of a level 50. It's used in the 0 manip speedruns
@@vSilentangel On route 43 in HGSS, if you surf, you can encounter only Magikarp. They can be encountered between levels 5 and 25, or at exactly 50 (probably meant to be a joke encounter). If you use a repel with a level 26 or higher Pokemon (not hard if you beat Morty), you can make it so that you ONLY encounter that level 50 Magikarp.
@andrewjones7329 lack of badges only affects traded pokemon. There's no issues with obedience and, as I said, picking up the (hidden) rare candy in Ecruteak (just south of the water), that's an easy level 51 Gyarados for the rest of the game
OMG I FORGOT ABOUT THIS!!!
You’ve found the hidden dragons, now which Pokemon are the crouching tigers?
The comment so good, I wish I thought of it😂😂😂
Early pokemon doesn't do them. Something like alpha pokemon or the wild terralized pokemon
Incineroar?
Incineroar doesn't crouch
@@williamdrum9899 I was actually thinking the martial arts Pokemon like Throh and Hariyama
Honestly, Gen 5 has a sweeping problem in general with Pokemon that just evolve way too late.
The late evolution levels seemed reasonable in the original Black and White. The idea was that the pokemon would evolve when they catch up to the level you're supposed to be at at the point you catch them. The levels just seem *really* weird in literally any other context including Black and White 2.
Yeah, it seems like Game freak just wanted to Lock them to post game.
Why the hell does Mienfoo evolve at level 51 lmao
It's a problem of GF stagnating the evolution level when plucking Pokémon in different contexts. Braviary & Bisharp evolving at level ~50 isn't an issue when you catch Rufflet/Pawniard near that level anyway. But Gen 6 changes the context in which you catch them. Before even attaining the second gym, the games give you a level 12 Rufflet. It's an issue now because while the Pokémon catch place is changed, its evolution level isn't. That's not a problem with Gen 5, but a problem with future generations, GF has shown they'll change evolution methods like with Glaceon & Milotic, so it's weird.
Yeah, it mostly worked in B&W because of the way they changed exp and how most stuff you evolved at level 50 you could catch at like level 40.
Then in every game since they are just weirdly high level evos compared to everything else. Gamefreak should just go back and lower those levels by like 10%-20% across the board.
Hey Pat, haven't watched your channel in probably near a decade your editing is incredible and you're very good at narrating, this is just a very well together put video.
Great work.
Ayeee welcome back!! Trying to do new things and it really means a lot :)
@@smithplayspokemon You mean running away from the other shit you refuse to apologise for right?
I REALLY like the concept of this video! Looking at a Pokemons game design within the context of its adventure and how overwhelming or underwhelming in light of the region and other pokemon and challenges is so nice. Seriously, great job!
Wait until you go into gen 4 and realize this Gyarados can just run like 3-4 different good sets and you have ZERO CLUE what it could be cooking until its too late.
Unfortunate doesn't even begin to describe my playthrough...
Unfortunate doesn't even begin to describe my series
I was a senior in HS when Gen 4 dropped and I didn't even realize the physical special split until Gyarados learned Aqua Tail and Ice Fang. I thought wow these special moves are hitting hard.
@@AudioGAWDDoes the game even tells you about that? I don't really remember. It does have the special and physical icons but I think you literally have to figure out on your own.
@@diegomedina9637 The games never tell you anything, actually. And if they do, the explanations are all fuzzy and vague. I imagine most Pokémon players find out about these mechanic changes through the Internet first, I know that was the case with me.
I felt a Gen 2 parallel to the "Hidden Dragon" is Zubat. Available very early, terrible starting moveset but with some patience and keeping it in your party, Zubat evolves at Level 22 into Golbat then it treated well: You get a Crobat at Level 23!
The big thing with that was you needed to give it a bunch of haircuts, and can only get it one a day.
@@homer23422000 I got my crobat with zero haircuts at 23.
@@homer23422000you can also just walk around
In HGSS, I think I only gave my Zubat 2 haircuts and it probably got KO'd a couple times, but it still evolved into Crobat basically right after evolving into Golbat.
It's definitely easier to get happiness in Gen 4, but I still don't think you need to spam haircuts to get a Crobat early.
Crobat is an underrated Poké.
Re: Volcarona at least requires you to explore deep into the relic castle, unlike the red gyarados which is a mandatory story encounter. Not only that but its moveset stinks. You’re stuck with fire spin for the longest time
That’s a great point!!
Can't you get Heat Wave from Heart Scales? As well as being able to use some TMs such as Struggle Bug from Burgh?
@@metalvyvern9531so you can get incinerate immiedtelty via grinding battle Points (reasoanble investment cost imo) for shards you get signal beam immediately (bug move lol) Then psychic in the long routes before Gym 7 and the finally heat wave just before 8th gym.
It's actually more reasonable than you think in the context of a B2W2 playthrough.
Yeah you can use struggle bug on it, but it's 30 bp@@metalvyvern9531
@@metalvyvern9531no it doesn’t get heat wave until lvl 60 but you can teach it signal beam from the tutors
never saw your channel before this vid, great work! love that you followed such a cool thread through the entire series.
I fun trick for the emulator players: the Pokémon randomizer has an option for "Allow Impossible Evolutions." As the name implies, it makes evolutions possible when the game mechanics or playing on an emulator wouldn't allow (at least not easily). In the case of the original four trade evolutions (Alakazam, Golem, Machamp, and Gengar), they just evolve at a later level.
Best 500 I ever spent.
I got red version when I was 4 years old, and i played it with my mother. I named the player character "MOMMY" and everything. She insisted that we should train Magikarp, as we watched the anime together too back then.
We got Gyarados on our way to Bill, and then completely dominated everything else in the game. Whenever my mother was in control, she trained other pokemon, used tactics and items, and generally played tbe game like you were supposed to. I, on the other hand, just used Gyarados for everything when I was in control. When we beat the champion, I think most of our team was in the late 30s, but Gyarados was around 70. (I don't know how long i spent in victiry road, but it had to have been days)
Then I went on to grind against the elite four and champion until Gyarados hit level 100, all before we even realized Cerulean Cave was right there.
Gyarados holds a special place in my heart, even if it isn't on my teams.
This is absolutely adorable
That’s so sweet omfg 😭
Bro and his mom destroyed kanto lmaooo
That's super sweet. And your mum did well trying to understand your interests and join in on them.
@@JacktheRah at four years old, I suspect this was one of his mom's interests (not that this is any less adorable for it).
@@SomeGuy-ty7kr even still, if you think it takes any special amount of nudging to get a small kid interested in something like a pokemon game then you clearly have forgotten how it feels like to be kid.
I've actually always viewed Ralts as more of a psuedo-starter rather than a hidden dragon. A line that closely follows the evolution curve of traditional starter Pokemon (which is normally 16 to 36) and ends up at a similar power level to your starter Pokemon. I suppose it could be both.
The psuedo starter archetype is one I don't see talked about much but there's a few Pokemon that embody it. I usually class any 3 stage Pokemon that has it's first stage evolution between 15-20 and it's second stage evolution between 30-40 to fall within this archetype. It would be cool to see you cover it if you need some inspiration!
I'm convinced now. Also got wally out there literally starting with it
I apply this to Mareep too. Levels don't work but in terms of game progression it feels like a fourth Starter
Zubat I feel like is an honorable mention
@@mugiwara4604 That's a good shout
@@mugiwara4604Even with crobat, id categorize Zubat as just "early route cave encounter" like Geodude. Embodies just straight up the animal it is (like other early route pokemon)
1:41 You saying ”swap grind” instead or ”switch train” made me go back 10 seconds to see if i heard it right
Bruh I did a double take. I've never heard someone call it that before.
Swap grind the best description I’ve heard of getting a magikarp to a gyarados.
Swap grind?
@@IG88AAA I mean yes but that's like saying "first partner Pokemon" instead of "starter".
THIS
I honestly wish I was half as expressive as you when I spoke.
This is a super fun and interesting video-you earned a new sub!!
Keep up the great work my dude!
My first pokemon game was ruby and I remember first discovering that magikarp evolved into gyrados. Stuff like that is what made me love playing pokemon as a kid. As I got further into the game and discovered milotic it was always a bit mystery to me and my brother because it had no location in the Pokédex and you can’t register a feebas unless you find one in the wild so you’d never know it existed or that milotic needed to be acquired by evolving one. Finally solving that mystery one day had me and my brother incredibly excited. Because of this experience and the possibility that other kids out there had a similar one, I’d say they did the magikarp and feebas distribution correctly in gen 3z
Everyone forgets the Daycare in Gen 1 exists...
Did you forget how shitty it is to walk around in that game?
@MrNylenRules You're gonna be doing a lot of that anyway. May as well level up Magikarp that way while continuing to play the game.
@@MrAutomatikyou get the bike right after the day care. For one level, it’s not hard at all.
True! I’d argue that’s still not without its cost though. In the first version of the script, I did cover this, but it was just too much to talk about so I scrapped it.
@smithplayspokemon No worries. And I want to make it clear I also forget about the daycare. It's far more personal to put in the effort.
Side note, I have taken to calling my Magikarp "Steve" as a reference to Steve Rogers. I simply enjoy the parallel.
The fact that Gyarados doesn't learn fly, but is constantly FLYING, has always deeply angered me...
The fact they had to make it Water/Flying instead of water/dragon deeply angered me.
I understand though, they wanted the dragon typing to be sacred back then and water/dragon Gyarados would have been completely and utterly busted in Gen 1.
@@mn_seahawk25thehawk64 Bulky Dragon with zero weaknesses would've been a Tauros-level staple in Gen 1 competitive.
@@mn_seahawk25thehawk64 Gyarados isn't Dragon type but Flying, because based on Koinobori (carp streamer) windsocks.
And he doesn't learn Fly, because it's a sea monster so it doesn't land, but can bounce from water to water (Mantyke too learn Bounce instead of Fly).
They really need to alter the model, I’ve seen soemone “can’t remember their acount name”
But they chnaged gyaradoes model to be just like johto remakes
@@mn_seahawk25thehawk64 Ironic considering offensively, dragon type was garbage. The only thing weak to dragon is dragon, and even then, there was only a single dragon type move in gen 1, which dealt fixed (and pathetic) damage.
in a way, wouldn't Crobat almost feel like the true "reward by perseverance" in Gen II? It made us like the damn hateful bats.
I think you're on to something, the first time I played gen 2 I didn't know Zubat had gotten a new evolution and was just training one because it has good type advantage for a lot of the early game. My shock when I first saw Golbat evolving was immediately replaced by awe at its great stats, and it could learn Fly which its predecessors couldn't. From then on it became a mandatory team member in every gen 2 playthrough for me.
true. he also forgot about larvitar. that b*tch evolves into a mfing cocoon poopytar before it evolves into tyranitar and destroys the whole game
I’ve been subbed to your channel since you were at 250 with my old RUclips account (I was a die hard zombies player) and even got to play with you once! I sucked, but man I didn’t even realize this was you. Congrats on being so successful on the RUclips world!
I loved this video! Really looking forward to seeing more like it, and I’m glad I found this channel just in time for this type of content haha
One thing I’d ask- would you count wishiwashi and palafin as weird in-battle versions of this trope lol
As someone who played B2W2, the "retroactive babies" feeling is somewhat solved with its wild Azuril, Riolu, Magby/Elekid, and Mantyke options. At least in the first four's cases, they are in early-game locations.
This is something I really like about baby mons. They allow evolutionary lines to be encountered much earlier.
The problem is these pokemon have low encounter rate or exist after 5th Gym unlike Magikarp which is everywhere when rod become obtainable.
@@waskithonugroho3955 The only one on this list with a low encounter rate is Riolu, and even then I don't remember it being particularily hard to find
No mention of Palafin. He fits the trope so well he stays hidden even during battle.
"a pokemon that evolves and gets stronger" is not a Gyarados
@@LazurBeemzThat’s the fun part, it doesn’t evolve to be better. Normal Palafin is awful, but if you switch it out and back in, it gets box legend stats. It needs to be HIDDEN to become the dragon
God I wanted to use one so badly, the evolution tactic is. A JOKE 😭
Istfg in next games better learn a special fighting move to evolve while holding an item and in afternoon time
Makes sense sure wild to evolve but remember glarian yamask and such are a thing
Crazy that you called it the “hidden dragon” archetype and didn’t even mention Swablu > Altaria, a literal hidden dragon
I was thinking the same thing.
That's just how much it sucks. Sorry.
@@___________0Z0XAltaria is a good dragon, better than cuckgon but outmatched by salamence
@@chavaspada don't you talk bad about my boy cuckgon!
He gets stab earthquake!
@@___________0Z0X altaria is a good substitute to salamence in gen 3 if you didnt want the pseudo legend. and in gen 6/7, at least it got a mega, and a good one at that. flygon got no love ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ none official anyway; i know they wanted to give him one but... they didnt lol
Subscribed cause you're very thorough and I like your format :)
Appreciate the support!! 🙏
Very interesting video and arguments. I thoroughly enjoyed it!
The Gyarados Theorem is exactly why whenever I play a Pokémon game, I limit my team to be just locals. I don't use previous gen mons on my teams
In that same note, always pick Greninja. For some reason there's like 3 Water Types in the Kalos dex and one of them becomes a Dragon upon evolution
No way Smith just called it Sol-gale-eo instead of Sol-ga-leo, this is another kimecho situation
Blastoise = blas-tuss, change my mind
@@smithplayspokemon Easy. Blas-tuss is far too close to blastussy. Now you'll never use it again.
@@Zillionman2010 You fool, now I want to only use Blas-tuss!
@@smithplayspokemon so you pronounce tortoise luke tor-tuss, makes sense😂
Why casual Pokémon players dislike Gyarados: “this video”
Why competitive players dislike Gyarados: “unfortunate doesn't begin to describe my series”
What?
@@arkaua It's a reference to a pokemon player that lost a tournament because Gyarados flinched him, he then wrote some words (starting with "unfortunate...") and never came back to competitive pokemon after
@@s0lsticefr4 Ahh gotcha, thank you!
@arkaua There's a former competitive player named Lavos that went up against a Gyarados in a tournament. He had several instances of bad luck trying to deal with it, resulting in a loss. He quit competitive after
He didn't just quit though. He also left behind a post explaining why he left, and it read like the manifesto of a super villian. It starts with "Unfortunate doesn't begin to describe my series..." and became a copy pasta meme.
@@EclipseKirby lol, Gyarados saved the world from a psychopath.
I love how every Pokemon RUclipsr always uses Gen 5 sprites in their videos. Gen 5 sprites will always be the best.
"Levelling up magikarp from lv5 to lv20 is a monumental task" but "it takes 2h"… alright…
2 hours to make a pokemon usable is pretty grindy tbf
Xp share my guy 😂
@@raydiaz2772he was talkikg gen 1, where doing 2 hours of battles is insanely rough.
@BigPanda096 XP share was in Gen 1 though you would just have to start with magikarp and swap immediately to your heavy hitter and rinse and repeat. It wasn't that bad I was 9 when gen 1 games hit the US so my ass had all the time in the world. 🤣
Magikarp not being able to learn water gun from mt moon was an all time troll
Feel like splash should be a 5 powered water type move, since it’s splash but it’s something
@staydetermined6717 The most hilarious thing GF could do is make splash water type so magikarp can have a stab move, but not make it do damage.
@@staydetermined6717 In the Japanese version, "Splash" is more like "Hop". The English translator wanted to call it something more like "Flop" or "Flail", but the higher-ups overruled him. Which is why later pokemon like Hoppip and Spoink use Splash despite not being water-types.
@ interesting
@@jericho86 lol
14:40 Pokémon is responsible for teaching me how many people mispronounce Truant.
He said something like “troo-aunt” which I almost didn’t understand. I’d pronounce it “trew-ant”
I only used Phanpy in SV, where I replaced the Donphan with Great Tusk and pretended it was the evolution it should have been.
Glad I'm not the only one who did this xD
I did this in Radical Red lmao Tusk fr should've been an actual evolution to Donphan
@@Nadid_Dhrabb And it could be called something like Mastodonphan because that is the nickname I gave mine.
A giant elephant evolution of Donphan is 100% necessary.
What if they make Great Tusk and Iron Treads split evos in the future
Like you evolve into Great Tusk with an Ancient Relic item, and into Iron Treads with a Cybernetic Armor item
(Y'all can make the names for the items, I'm not very creative LOL)
It may be pokemon yellow, I'm not sure, but I swear I remember being able to fish up a level 15 gyarados behind the safari zone warden's house with a super rod
In Black and White, you absolutely will not have a Volcarona before the Elite Four unless you catch the underleveled one in Relic Castle only in BW2 then trade it over to BW1. If you use the Larvesta you get as an egg, it won't evolve until 58, many levels above the Elite Four. The Volcarona in Relic Castle, in that case, is much more comparable to a hidden legendary like the Birds from Gen 1, except, unlike them, Volcarona has pretty lackluster moves at that point and few good TMs you can give it until quite a bit later, and it requires a trade on top of that.
Edit: Flamethrower TM is in post-game so the best Fire move you can give your Volcaron before post-game is the unreliable Fire Blast. Similarly, the best Bug move you can get before post-game is Silver Wind, since it Bug Buzz isn't available until well above the Elite Four's level.
Commenting to say I love Volcarona
@kylespevak6781 Same! It's one of my favorite Bug Types.
Gyarados is actually part of a trio in Gen 1 which I'm surprised you didn't mention. Arcanine and Exeggutor are both stone evolutions instead of grinding to level 20, but they also both have pretty weak first phases and a slow growth rate, and since they don't learn any moves once evolving they require serious investment in a different manner. The three also all fill out the rival's team for the starters he didn't take, and are on the removed Professor Oak teams. Arcanine in particular is also referred to as a Pokemon from "Chinese legend" in early Pokedex entries and its stripes seem to play into the classic chinese Tiger/Dragon motif with Gyarados.
Eggy is my personal favorite of the three though because you can evolve it right away and get the insane power boost, but then you're stuck with the inaccurate Hypnosis, but if you grind it all the way up 48, which will probably be roughly around the Elite 4 without comical amounts of grinding, you get the much more accurate Sleep Powder. Sleep Powder on a Pokemon with 455 (580 in modern terms) base stats, the ridiculous (in gen 1) Grass/Psychic type combo, and with the busted Gen 1 sleep mechanics.
I think its also worth mentioning that Gholdengo's evolution method replaces the Gyarados level grind with hunting for coins that better suits the open world nature of Scarlet/Violet and thus preserving the grind aspect.
I was disappointed they didn't mention Palafin! Similar concept, with a 315 as Finizen, but get it to level 38 (and discover it's nearly impossible to figure out evo method) and you get a 650 titan that is still somewhat kept in check by it's ability.
Larvesta also has the swing from Physical to Special, which can be jarring.
Volcarona is my favourite pokemon but man i don't like this design choice they made, make it consistent, make it make sense
How dare you disparage Milotic! The supreme water wall! 😂
I appreciate how thorough you were in this video. I would add that I always appreciate a pokémon more if I've had to put the effort into training them myself
Idk about anyone else but the reason black and white are my favorite is that everything they did everything that was experimented with. It still feels new. I don’t know how to explain it better
lol wut?
“Everything they did everything that was experimented with” my guy, what??? You don’t know how to explain it better? You didn’t even explain anything that makes sense at all 😂
I can't believe you forgot that you can level up magikarp using struggle move
***DAYCARE***
@@TheRoughGoIt feels like no one remembers the Day care. 😂
Only fools don’t remember the day care for majikarp
And struggle isn’t viable since it’s too weak
When XY was current there was an event Speed Boost Torchic and Mega Blaziken stomps the game even harder than Mega Lucario and you get it earlier.
You can’t get it earlier. You don’t get the mega ring until you get mega lucario
@Boarbatrice True that you can't mega it until then, but even normal Speed Boost Blaziken is busted at XY's power level.
If you even need a mega, you get one of the kanto starters after the first gym, Kalos starters
Hawlucha was introduced right before 2nd gym, etc
Speed boost Torchic broken the game in half 😂
I can't believe that during this whole video you didn't talk about Dratini... in gen 1 he is the ultimate reward for patience.
I was looking for this comment
@@pepelumartinez9915 This
In every single game I'm able to find a Magikarp I add Gyarados to my party.
I feel it's worth noting that the level 35 Volcarona isn't even that good for a playthrough. It gets virtually no good moves until you finally get the Flamethrower TM right before Victory Road. Sure, you can _maybe_ give it Signal Beam, but most of its level up learnset is physical. Better off using literally any other Fire type or Bug type.
Edit: I'm aware of the various Tutor moves, but some are late-game and others just don't feel worth using up shards. My biggest point was a lack of reliable STAB options.
Black 2 gives the Wide Lens in one of the buildings on Route 4 to make Fire Blast an option and it does get Giga Drain via tutoring, but yeah using Volcarona in B2W2 was a lot trickier than I thought it would be 💀
It gets psychic via tm, heat wave and giga drain via tutoring, it's moveset is not physical, is just REALLY weak moves til lv 50 (and whirlwind for whatever reason)
It sure is tricky, but man does it feel good to sweet the entire elite 4 just with it
I learn this from Chuggaconroy. You can explore Relic Castle and battle Volcarona at lvl. 35. But don't capture it. Beat it, beat the Pokemon League, start postgame and come back to the Relic Castle where Volcarona will respond, but it'll be at lvl. 70. That way it'll have those Special Stab moves without grinding it. So you can capture it there.
@@jaretco6423 While I also heard it from Chuggaaconroy, I actually heard it first from MandJTV, who tried using it in a Bug-only playthrough, and Volcarona wound up being the worst member of his team.
It's a shame too, because this was the only time Volcarona hasn't been a post-game Pokémon. Level 59 is simply unreasonable, and I can't fathom why Game Freak made so many Unova Pokémon evolve so late.
@codename618 I understand. But at the same time though, I get why they did that. Volcarona is kinda O.P. and if it had all those Stabs moves, he would break the game.
I'm very surprised that the first Mon that immediately came to mind wasn't even mentioned: Wishiwashi.
I would argue Wishiwash doesn't count because in a vacuum of Pokemon knowledge, Wishiwashi isn't that hidden. You first encounter Wishiwash in the area of the water trial, where in original Sun and Moon, Wishwashi is the Totem pokemon. You don't really have a chance to discover Wishiwashi's potential on its own before the game tells you, unlike Magikarp, Ralts, and others who if you stick with them, you'll discover their potential before they start showing up in trainers' parties. That and the Wishiwashi you get are already level 10-15 (10-21 in USUM when fishing in bubbling spots), so it's not nearly as much of a climb to level 20 when its ability triggers.
@@finalbossbowser It probably doesn't count, but I still think it deserved an honorable mention like many other Pokemon that were mentioned in the video
No because wishiwashi IS the dragon. The whole point is the carp evolving into the dragon. If wishi washi counts then archeops and darmanitian zen count. If those count then what about mimikyu and minior? Just no
@ None of those other Pokemon start out weak like Magikarp. Wishiwashi's ability does nothing until it reaches level 20, the same level that Magikarp evolves into Gyarados. Up until then, it's stuck with even WORSE stats than Magikarp, plus no ability of course. Wishiwashi is way closer to the hidden dragon archetype than the other Pokemon you mentioned, and I think it pretty clearly takes a lot of inspiration from Magikarp, being a mostly useless little fish that gets way stronger at level 20. It just puts its own spin on the idea, using an ability and a form change instead of an evolution.
I mean galar you can find it right away by fishing and get it at like lvl 9
Sure first gym is lvl 20 but…
Sunflora either needs a Mega Evo, Regular Evo, or rebrand and better stats. Add Fire-type, give it +15 to HP, DEF, and Sp. ATK, and +10 to Sp. DEF and Speed. Expand its move pool to not just Fire moves but give it a couple Ground, Fairy, Water, and Poison moves. Its abilities should be: Drought or Chlorophyll and Hidden Ability should be Flash Fire.
Worth mentioning, Sunflora does have Earth power and Sludge bomb.
As for a buff, I’d love to see an evolution, a Grass/Fire one would be really great. Maybe even give it a fire Type signature move that isn’t literal fire
@@Castersvarog it always had a decent movepool, but the shit stats always made it useless, especially with how many commonly available grass types that are good exist.
A "hidden dragon" concept seems sort of tenuous tbh
Something in me died when I got to "baby bear evolving into adult bear is the same as fish evolving into dragon". Christ, what are we even doing here.
24:00 I think Pokemon could’ve been so much better if every game was like black and white and had at least mostly new Pokemon in the regional Pokédex. It sucks the generation sold so poorly
It even tried to have a better story. Sure, it fell a bit flat in some places, but effort was there.
I really like the HD-2D design of it. Where it looks sort of like a pop-up book. Pokemon didn't use that design enough.
People prefer a balance between new and old which is why they scrapped that Idea of "new mons only" in the sequels
@ they would’ve been ok with it if they committed to it from the jump with Gen III instead of waiting
It was probably the most effort they ever put into a game and it didn’t sell. So they decided not to put any effort into future games
at 1:18 why did his health decrease
He leveled up and it seems as though the added upper HP limit, didn't bring the current HP with it. Its like having a tube with water in it and you make the tube longer but the water stay the same
Why did it Say he leveled up to 20 while being 22?
wth thats rly weird @jakubmarcinkowski6581
@@jikemusic8081he means the hp when from 60/60 to 59/59. My guesses for this happening is hp IV decrease somehow or an oversight in editing. 🤷
@@jakubmarcinkowski6581switch training. He has magikarp before the pokemon then it died and he also got experience to level him up
"Pokémon's Gyarados sucks, so I'm remaking it."
LMAO
Yeah definitely sounds something he would do lmao
I mean….sinooh is next if he wants to change things, OH GOD HE COULD GO FOR BDSM I MEAN BDSP 😭
That…would be interesting
“Enter Gardevoir!”
R34 artists: We’ve been trying!
I think you're differentiating yourself well by focusing on design choices and game design in the series as a whole. I enjoyed this video, keep at it and if you ever want to do that Platinum Legacy I'm here for it
None of what you said is Gyarados' fault. You're finding your own patterns and drumming up wild conclusions.
You blame Gyarados and spent the entire video talking about other Pokemon. Pokemon, whom the majority of players will jump to over Gyarados in new generations.
Hidden dragon is in your head.
I resent your attack on Gyarados, and I sentence you to a gruesome end via Hyper Beam.
Much love. Looking forward to more videos.
I was going to say, "Found the Gyarados Stan," but I realize that was the joke.
It's not that serious 😅
Not sure where Kingdra was in the gen 2 hidden dragon discussion. It shares the same base stats as Gyarados and Milotic, and it literally gains a dragon typing. It was clearly meant to be gen2 Gyarados, even if the effort from horsea/seadra compared to magikarp is not the same
16:00 Gyrados doesn’t overshadow milotic, gen 3 as a whole does. It’s annoying as hell to catch and your reward is an above average water type. Wanna know who else is an above average water type? Swampert, Tentacruel, Starmie. Too many options and too little reward for too much work.
Too many water type options in Gen 3, really. I make a point of trying a new water type main every time i replay those games just so i don't default to the water starter/gyarados.
@@Kite403 One water type that really surprised me was Swanna. (The Swan one from gen 5)
While it kinda is a poor mans Pelipper, it's still surprisingly solid. Of course, it's no Gyarados, but it gets the job for flying and water needs done.
It's also quite fast with a 98 base. (Well, for the time it came out, now 100 base is barely passable anymore)
My attention span is fried and now at 30 minutes in I’m still happy to watch, great job smith.
Main channel dead now? Snakey lads
No mention of WishiWashi in Gen 7? Kinda surprised by that
It kinda uses the trope but in an ability form rather than an evolution form
There is no relation there. It doesn't evolve. It's closer to Darmanitan in terms of gimmick.
@@LazurBeemz It doesn't unlock its ability until level 20, and its ability is basically an evolution with a massive base stat total increase. It's pretty clearly a Gyarados clone, except it reverts back at low hp.
i was surprised that both this and Vikavolt weren't mentioned for gen 7
Vikavolt sucks though
@
1] that's a matter of opinion
2] even if that is accepted as fact, it's not particularly relevant considering Sunflora gets a mention during gen 2.
Gyrados was one of the pokemon behind one of the biggest pokemon showdown crashouts.
Also love the melty music
13:37 do what now?
Enter. Gardevoir.
You heard him. Saddle up boys it’s freaking time
As someone who just played Red&Blue as a kid, thanks for the 4:04 minute video. :)
Really well done video. I also share your high praise for gen 5.
Gen 6 I feel that Noivern was missed. Noibat was a low BST Pokemon that gets a HUGE stat increase upon evolving. Obviously agree that no matter what it will be overshadowed by the Lucario problem but still feels worth mentioning.
Edit: would Finizen to Palafin also fit the archetype for gen 9?
For Noibat you get it so late that you barely spend time with it. For Finizen… sure.
Noibat isn't in gen 6, because you can only get it at a point where it would immediately evolve, but it definitely fits in every other gen.
NOibat should of been a rare enounter in the cave with the mirrors or the one where team flare is introduced
@danieljennings9617 you can say the same thing about Jangmo-o the thing literally evolves the moment you catch it.
A fun follow up video could be what you started bringing up with sunkern and togepi. The anti-hidden dragon where they start off harder than average (hard to obtain or hard to train), but pull the rug out from under you and not pay off in the slightest. Examples would be gen 1 jigglypuff (starts off with only sing, so you need to switch train), gen 2 yanma where it's a 1% encounter at a time where it's no longer useful. Gen 2 togepi and sunken for reasons you brought up. Gen 2 spinarak since you don't get ariados until after the 3rd gym, and the early game bug troupe falls off by gym 2 anyway. Gen 3 skitty and surskit with their rarity. Etc.
Idk if there's enough pokemon for a whole video, but it might be fun to see the opposite of this to figure out which pokemon ends up being the worst hidden dragon
Very cool idea! Thank you!
I don't think Smith knows the real reason why Gardevoir is such a fan favourite.
Is it because of it special attack?
Rule 34
And also its part fairy type@@___________0Z0X
@@yeetboi-os5kb how could I forget? That is a very good typing!
absolutely tripped me up when i realized like 2 minutes in that it was smith, nice seeing you again it’s been a while lol
Imagine getting 2 gameboys together with a link cable in 2025... Nobody is getting alakazam anymore... lol
One thing you didn’t mention: how to _make_ Red Gyarados in Gen2, compared to Gen4.
In Gen2, Shiny was calculated by your DVs (IVs for newer games). Most of your stats had to be middling, while Attack could be anywhere from max to 2. This means your Red Gyarados, in terms of Defense, Speed, and Specials were at 66% power.
In Gen4, I don’t believe it was given a specific IV spread. Meaning it wasn’t guaranteed to be above mediocre.
Ever since Gen 3, shinyness isn't tied to your stats, it's a separate thing. That was done in Gen 2 to maintain backwards compatibility (same reason why male/female was tied to the Attack DV
I remember I tried to find a formula to evaluate a fitting evolution level for a Pokémon. This is after Generation 5's Pokémon evolution level nonsense.
For Magikarp, it has a stats a level -7 Pokémon (yes, negative -7). Gyarados of a level 41 Pokémon. And the suitable level of evolution should be around level 33. Not level 41, in order to reward the use of underpowered Pokémon.
I made basically a "level of encounter" depending of the stats. So even if Magikarp could evolve at level 20 (or 33), the designer should only make the player face a Gyarados when the expected level of the team reaches level 41, even if it is available at level 20 (or 33).
Here a few example applied to other Pokémon.
Sandile → (lv. 14) Krokorok → (lv. 33) Krookodile (instead of 29 and 40)
Gothita → (lv. 18) Gothorita → (lv. 31) Gothitelle (instead of 32 and 41)
Vanilite → (lv. 19) Vanilish → (lv. 36) Vaniluxe (instead of 35 and 47)
Foongus → (lv. 26) Amoonguss (instead of 39)
Frilish → (lv. 31) Jeliicent (instead of 40)
Ferroseed → (lv. 30) Ferrothron (instead of 40)
Klink → (lv. 24) Klank → (lv. 37) Klinklang (instead of 38 and 49)
Axew → (lv. 22) Fraxure → (lv. 37) Haxorus (instead of 38 and 48, but I can apply a "Late Bloom" (kin to Dragonite), then it is 30 and 50)
Mienfoo → (lv. 35) Mienshao (instead of 50)
Rufflet/Vullaby→ (lv. 35) Braviary/Mandibuzz (instead of 54)
Deino → (lv. 30) Zweilous → (lv. 55) Hydreigon (instead of 50 and 64 ("Late Bloom" formula))
Larvest → (lv. 40) Volcarona (instead of 59, or 50 with "Late Bloom" formula).
What’s the formula you used?
@@9Destra It is a long one. And it is highly empiric. It felt "good" enough for me. It need some adaptations. Mainly because of the early bugs, because it doesn't work when there are 2 weak Pokémon in a 3-stage evolutions.
Basically:
- I create a Ideal Encounter Level (IEL) for each Pokémon, depending of its Base Stats (BS). It is arbitrary. I made it [BS-250]/7. Bulbasaur, Ivysaur and Venusaur have an IEL of 10, 22 and 39.
- To determine the evolution level of Pokémon, I pick 75% of the difference between the Pokémon and its pre-evolution, add 50% of the sum of IEL of the pre-evolved from and the New Evolution Level (NEL).
- To that, if the NEL of the pre-evolution is superior to the IEL, I would add 75% of the difference of that value (that value is negative) in order to decrease the NEL of that Pokémon.
- Some adaptation are made depending of the Pokémon. Starters has -5 (middle evolution) and -2 (final evolution) in order to decrease their evolution level. "Late Bloom" has +9. Some shenanigan about Friendship evolution, Trade evolution and Stone evolution when it is a 3-stage evolution in order to not have a "hidden dragon", that will increase the NEL of the middle evolution (I think I removed it for Friendship evolution though).
Then, I allow myself to round those number to feel more nice. Technically, Zweilius and Hydreigon should be 31 and 56, but 30 and 55 feels nicer.
That's... interesting.
I do think it's worth considering that the evolution-levels Game Freak chose especially for a lot of Unovas Pokemon are probably with the idea in mind, that players should be able to/have to use Pokemon in their base form for a while before being able to evolve them, although it does obviously make using them when they reappear at different points in later games absolutely depressing and they absolutely should've adjusted the evolution-levels for them, even though they've never done that before.
Another way to fix this kind of issue would be to switch to a system where a Pokemon would only evolve after leveling up a certain amount of times without reaching a specific level, so lets say a starter would have to level up 11 times to evolve the first time, adding up to the classic level 16, but lets say if you bred your starter and trained a new one, it'd evolve level 12. That way late game unevolved Pokemon would be high level but you'd have to use them for some time in that form before they evolve, but you could also in theory breed them to evolve them easier, but if you wanted to use them on your team they'd be severely underleveled.
@@Justic_ I was about to suggest this system too; _Temtem_ does it this way, as well.
I think training should be more important to the games again. The way it's handled now, wild Pokémon are only something you engage with to either catch or shiny hunt, and then you can just ignore them afterward-since XP gain is relatively easy with the abundance of XP candies and forced party-wide XP.
Playing through a Gen 1 hack right now (Pure Green Version), and I've come to the conclusion that the pre-Gen 5 games had it right the first time. Streamlining XP gain made the games too easy (and makes it trivial to get "hidden dragons" like Gyarados), whereas the bottlenecks you'd encounter right before gyms were the games' way of soft-capping your team's levels. You _could_ raise your team to the leader's levels if you wanted, but at the cost of actual time (Fortunately, PureRGB has an instant text option that makes battling snappier and _way_ more fun). So, depending on the player, you might see that as worth your time, or a brick wall to your progress; and the amount of time you're willing to spend training new helpful teammates is going to be a different priority for every player, so a lot of players may just choose to tackle every fight underleveled, and that's where the challenge comes from. That's why, for many players, the older games seemed tougher than now.
Which means the real problem the games have had with grinding is that battling in these games is just _really frickin' _*_slow;_* it lacks the proper amount of action, speed, and dynamism to keep the average player engaged, and _that's_ what makes it unfun. Coming back around to your point, I agree that players should have to actually train their Pokémon again for evolutions, rather than just getting a high-level base form and evolving it after leveling it once.
@@Justic_ You are right, but I have my personal theory. The new Exp. Formula screwed the progression. I will explain.
From Generation 1 to 4, the Exp. Formula was unshared and unscaled. Without farming, there is a limited pool of Exp. The most effective strategy was to dump all the Exp. on the higher leveled Pokémon in your team. Which was your starter. An overleveled starter for all the game. As the team composition is limited (HM holder), the designer couldn't really offer tough challenge that would hard counter your starter. Because if they did, the player has to raise on wild Pokémon a new Pokémon to compensate. Thus, the introduction of "legendary in the scenario" since Generation 2: Lugia, Groudon, Dialgia... to cut the grind.
Sinnoh's League offered somewhat of a challenge with more thought out Elite 4. They weren't great, but a high level starter with a legendary might not be enough.
Gamefreak realized this, and wanted to push the players to try new Pokémon. For this, they saw the Exp. Formula as one of the main culprit and tried to fix it.
In Generation 5, the Exp. Formula was unshared and scaled. And... it was a disaster. The idea was to give bonus Exp. on lower level Pokémon, but higher level receive less Exp.. Which was a problem. The Exp. was still in limited access, so you still cannot spread it out without needed to farm. So they made everything to make the new Exp. Formula works. Trainers have high level but weak Pokémon. The wild ones are as well high level but weak. This, in order for your Pokémon to raise faster.
But it wasn't enough. The game had to literally introduce a Exp. Punching Bag to circumvent the Exp. problem: Audino. Yeah, around Badge 2, the game tells you about Audino farming for Exp.
Since the game was a run for higher and higher level, the evolution level went higher and higher to fit that model. But... the Pokémon themselves stay weak for an absurd amount of time, and their evolution level don't really reward the investment.
In Generation 6, they revert back. Unshared and unscaled. But... they introduce the Exp. Share after the first gym. And Exp. on catch. So basically, they made the overleveling starter strategy, except it applies for the whole team. THE WHOLE TEAM. If we add the Exp. on catch with the most expanded Pokédex ever, the +20% Exp. with Pokémon Amie, and O Powers. Yeah, if Gamefreak made everything to make the Exp. Formula works in Generation 5, in Generation 6 they didn't bother to try to balance it.
In Generation 7, the Exp. is shared and scaled. Some people says it is bad, but I think it suits Gamefreak goal: cut the grind, allow your to try new Pokémon, prevent to "punish" the player if they dump all the Exp. on a bad Pokémon (like Chikorita), and easier to balance the game. If you are underlevel, the game will give you more Exp. If you are overleveled, the game will slow you down. The only "problem" left was the grind to level 100, which was basically solved by Exp. candy.
Also, kinda worth mentioning that Feebas and Milotic is SIGNIFICANTLY easier to get in ORAS (like, I went to spot and fish for lols and got it first try)
But Mega Evo is a thing... so its fell off a 100 feet tall cliff
Legend has it that ancient, extremely powerful pokemon choose to throw themselves off a waterfall to evolve into Magikarps and enjoy peace.
31 years old and I just found out TODAY that the “scam” magikarp evolves at lvl 20
I absolutely love Gyarados, easily in my top five favorite pokemon of all time! But I really do get that fatigue of Gyarados dominance. I personally love adding my boy to my team, but the points really do make sense
🤛
I always used Gyarados or Greninja (occasionally Samurott) from the appropriate gen onwards) but Protean has been banned now so…
Vikavolt and Crabominable in Gen 7 can also be considered to be this archetype.
You have to drag their underevolved forms with you quite a while before you reach the places where they can evolve.
Expanding a team slot for them for so long is a higher investment then training them to a certain level in a game where a full party exp share exists.
So glad ultra games fixed that ngl
Finally, the GYARADOS video
yessirrrrrrr
The dark room with the blue light from the computer monitor reflecting off your face is the perfect setting for ranting about pokemon
Notably, Gardevoir's lore is all about its loyalty for its trainer, which makes sense considering the grind it takes to unlock its "hidden Dragon".
as an avid gen 3 enthusiast, you nailed it on the head why gyarados is hardly used early. You dont get surf till you are about 2/3rds the way done, and having a water STAB in your party is very helpful for flanery and magma. you can still fish upto a lvl 45 magikarp later game for intimidate with the super rod to become your new water STAB since there isnt any reliable water moves with the same level of power as all the water HMs in gen 3. Gyarados is still super strong for e4 and end game content.
I never used gyarados back in the day. the last pokemon game I played was platinum and I tried him out because I heard of the physical/special split and wanted to give it a try. he sure can commit war crimes but I never really liked gyarados that much. my favorite is gen 3 and I much preferred milotic over gyarados if I wanted a cool water type.
speaking of cool water types, lapras can also commit war crimes, arguably more egregious ones due to being water/ice
XY had the gift pokemon problem that made so many other options useless. You get two starts (1 a mega), a Snorlax and level 10, a Mega Lucario and then they even throw in a free Lapras.
Gyrados in gen 4:
Earthquake
Dragon Dance
Ice Fang
Waterfall/Aqua Tail
Literally solos the series.
27:46 Unfortunately Level 35 Volcarona is kind of a waste of time, primarily because Volcarona has to wait FOREVER to get actually good moves. Until the 7th Gym, its only attacking moves worth caring about are Ember, Fire Spin, and Signal Beam. It is a rather unconventional Hidden Dragon purely because it's dead weight until the moment it finally gets good moves.