+Luka Giga I was telling my cousin about civ off handedly and I mentioned something like"going to maximize my culture output and translate that to a maximal amount of faith that I'll use to buy great scientist and get Hubble" and you have to understand how ridiculous that sentence sounds to anyone who doesn't play civ.
I still find myself coming back to this video (as well as every other Filthy civ 5 video) just because of how amazing they are. So much knowledge presented in such an eloquent and well structured way. Thanks for making these
I feel obliged to comment and support this video just due to how willing you are to sit down for over an hour and talk through this in a logical and easy to understand manner. top advice and thanks
It amazes me how you can easily talk for over an hour, without breaks or edits, on a Civ topic. There's so much good information in these videos it almost too much to take in! As a new player I will probably be avoiding the Liberty tree for a while as it does seem to be less reliable and forces more decisions that I'm not sure I'm qualified to make just yet! Great video, I'll be sure to check out your others and I've started tuning into the stream when I can too.
***** I don't necessarily agree that's the best route though. The thing is that as soon as you get to Renaissance, you want to start adopting Rationalism whether you're Poland or not. As Poland you're only going to get 2 free policies before reaching Renaissance. Even assuming you build the Oracle, that's not enough time to finish both Liberty and Tradition unless you're really lagging behind in science.
I don't think the Pyramids are generally very useful. I certainly wouldn't adopt Liberty just for Pyramids. If I had some extra policies after finishing Tradition and before the Renaissance era, I would spend them on Patronage and/or Commerce before Liberty. That's just me though.
i didnt get this comment even though this was my second time watching this Video, i wanted to finish it seeing as i had only watched 16 minutes of it and figured i needed to finish it. now i remember why...once again im doing exactly what u just said, fk lib go tra
Why is it so much fun to listen to this guy's commentary about civ5? I like civ5 i play it often but sometimes i like to watch this guy rather than play myself , why?
Yes and no. The same weaknesses translate, but the strengths are further exemplified due to the longer time frames. Production takes such a center stage that it isn't much of a stretch to say the first to take a turn on something is often the one that gets it. Play marathon versus ai enough and you run into a thing where your typical play pattern gets upset by the differences in production. I can't count the number of times I've lost great library due to getting settlers out and not starting production till turn 160 plus instead of building it on turn 100 to 120
Tradition is so much easier to deal with but honestly, I think it's lowkey fun to go liberty. The games I play with my mates are just races to see who can get the science victory first and I think by going liberty, I can maybe spice it up for once lol
Your channel is a real asset to strategy gamers everywhere. It makes me yearn for channels with this kind of depth for some of the other games I'm into.
@Xenovista Yet it is written in Egyptian texts and documents that there were many foreign slaves. There were papers found describing wealthy lords in Egypt who owned many slaves of semetic origins. www.haaretz.com/archaeology/were-hebrews-ever-slaves-in-ancient-egypt-yes-1.5429843
@Xenovista But at one point, the jews were leaders of some lower regions of egypt. They were eventually overthrown and a kingdom of Canaanite leaders united the north and south under a counsel called the "Pharoah", which was actually multiple people. The bible describes Jacob, a slave to egypt before the events of Moses and the exodus, who rose to power in Egypt. Later, when the kingdom was united and many Hyksos (aka "israelite") peoples remained, there were slaves as well as servants used to build monuments. If the account of the bible regarding Egypt as a breadbasket and having been full of Jews is accurate, there is no reason that those minority people would not be angry to be stuck building monuments and buildings for the Pharoah.
One significant advantage that a liberty player has is greater access to Strategic Resources. I can't count how many games I get great lands for Tradition and have a very solid mid-game, only to lose later on due to bad RNG and not having access to coal/uranium which can be incredibly crucial to success in those eras. Overall though, fantastic guide!
Once i built a tradition empire that didn't have iron. *Iron*. It was back when i was just getting started in civ so i still managed to win because it was on settler difficulty but ffs i could build nothing. That actually made me realise how much we do depend on iron for infrastructure and things like that.
@@GrantedBunion Right. But Iron, like horses, can boost your economy dramatically! Which then you can buy city-states which give you the Iron back anywase. Frigates, from a military standpoint, are the only thing iron is good for.
I can't possibly imagine a better guide than this, very efficient and well explained mr. Phil. I really enjoy the information/time (fraction) in your vids! So much accurate details given in the shortest time possible.
Haven't played Civ 5 in a long time, but I'm super impressed by your amount of knowledge and wanting to play again just after seeing two of your videos.
I feel like Liberty should get some of the lesser bonuses from Order honestly. Such as Resettlement, the thing that gives your cities god king but with food instead of faith, slightly better internal trade routes. You know, maybe anything at all to help with happiness in an impactful way. Obviously I don't mean the exact tenants.. But yeah.
Another really well thought out wrap up mate. I'm late to the game (had it about a couple of months, played 290 hours) and find your vids very helpful and for that I thank you. Well done :)
Thanks for the video Filthy. The 5% technology and social policy cost per city is IMO, the defining factor in preventing liberty from being relevant. Since there is no production penalty; eventually, a liberty empire will outproduce a tradition empire, but that's doubtful. I feel if players were given a 1% penalty per extra city that scaled up to a maximum of 15% (similar to the production follower belief) would balance reasonably well (and speed the game up!) Monarchy is just too overpowered. Perhaps if you could relocate your capital there would be a case for liberty being more popular. It's amusing that to combat ICS from vanilla and G&K, minimum distance between cities increased from 2 to 3 hexes, scientist specialists removed from libraries, nerfs to meritocracy, Forbidden Palace and HUGE buffs to tradition with the final nail in the coffin being additive tech/social policy costs have created a situation so one sided. Thematically, a wider larger empire SHOULD out produce and out compete a tall, centralised empire. Honestly, if the tech/SP penalty was removed or tweaked, players could reliably make a meaningful and difficult game decision between liberty/tradition. Not have it decided within 5 turns between whether your capital or viable or not. It would be nice to regardless of the strength of your capital, be able to go wide if that is your playstyle. Also if converting population into production a la Civ4 Slavery would have been great.
It is sad as ICS was really a SP strategy and not really viable in MP. I honestly never saw the reason for the science penalty as happiness was a resource to help keep that in check.
Great overview. He nailed basically everything. Short answer is Tradition is always safe, you really can't go wrong with it. Liberty can be better though if the circumstances are right.
The rate and quality of information is so much that I had to backtrack more than a dozen times to keep up with what you're saying. That is in no way your fault, if this amount of information was all scripted, your videos would be 3 times the lenght with no need imo. This is more akin to a real class. Thanks for your work its really appreciated, and although its allways good to explore our own strategies and learn the game by fault and error, my enjoyment of the game is much higher because of your help. Godbless mate.
Surprisingly, Korea is very good in Liberty game thanks to its science bonus per specialist which allowed me to keep up with demographics science leader in the mid-game having 8 cities and around -20 GPT.
I can't believe how much I improved by watching 2 of your videos. I will watch more in the future but I've been playing both tradition and liberty incredibly wrong until I watched your videos. I've tried Google to find some information but mostly it's not as in depth as your videos and I tend to interpret things differently as they meant, meaning I screw up again. Love your videos!
This is one heck of a guide. im new to brave new world, but i was doing some policy research for use with my single player mods on 10 player maps. i usually play liberty over tradition, but i usually play defensive and its clear based on your information that Tradition would far work better for me overall.
Thanks to Filthy's guides I always hold at least a 500pt lead in casual online ffa games with friends aha This is the last guide I have to watch to completion and if I don't smash them in the early game too now I'll be surprised!
I played my first Civ 5 game. My AI teammate goes to war 4 times ruining my economy and friendships I’ve built up since the start of the game. So I’m too poor to afford more troops because of past wars and I can’t denounce him or stop him from being my teammate. He’s on the opposite side of the map and I have to deal with everyone he went to war with. Nobody accepted my peace treaties and I was apparently the one who warmongers while I was the only one denounced with people attacking me.
Cool and interesting stuff. I have palyed Civilization games for a long time, since 2003. it started with a game called Civilization: Call to Power. When you mentioned big empires can spam out a lot of units even if it takes a lot of turns for each city to build units, i thought of when i used to play Call to Power, and spent the early part of the game to expand like CRAZY!! :), build (or rather settle) a huge number of cities, got the Agricultural Revolution technology and then built a whole lot of the sort of cheap pikemen who were fairly decent (3 attack, 3 defence, not at all very strong units) units but very strong in huge numbers against empires with big obsolete ancient armies. (With a few musketeers as long range units to help out and huge numbers of pikemen it was easy to conquer). Even smaller cities could build pikemen fairly Quick, and a big empire and early focus on science meant iw as usually first with the good texhnology and advantages. Libraries were quite cheap in the game as well as settlers also. And once you changed government from the earliest one to Republic (i Think it was republic) then it was easier to expand and get enough gold for a bigger army. A few years later i played Civ III a lot and by then a lot of things had changed inthe gameplay. There were borders, Culture, Resources and other stuff introduced in the game. But the expansion tactic was still an easy way to get ahead of the computer. Once you started building cities far away from the capital though, Civ III punished you a lot in terms of Culture. Some cities turned to the other empires if Culture was too weak, on the other hand you could also get cities if your Culture was stronger. Also, if a city was to far away, the cultural influence got lower, which meant less production i Think. But you could still expand very much. The next Civ game i played was Civilization Revolution, which was quite somple compared to a lot of other Civ games and i Think expansion was quite easy to achieve. Then i started playing Civ V as late as early 2014 (after a Humble Bundle) and i played it quite a lot during the first half of 2014, but in 2015 i have only played one game in the spring and Another one going on right now (or two actually, but i might not finish both of them). I play the regular Civ V and i still tend to play games where i want to expand a lot. Liberty seemed like the natural choice for me. In plain Civ V you also get the free settler much quicker, which is a big reason to go fr the monument, because essentially, getting 4 Culture per turn instead of 2 Culture per turn rom the capital means i can get to the free settler social policy much faster. I have not played Civ V as in depth as Civ III or Civ Rev though. In the beginning i used to pick some stuff from both Liberty and Tradition, but nowadays i tend to get the settler Liberty social policy, then the production one and the worker one, and by then i only need 2 more social policies to clear out the whole area and get the bonus. And by the time i can choose my seventh social policy, i usually need gold, and happiness (or both) and Commerce tends to be better for getting such things. I know tradition gets some happiness, but only for big cities, which i usually have not got. Expansion and social policies is a bad combination though. Happiness is a huge problem for me, especially when i want to conquer other cities and take over them during the middle phase of the game when i have lots of cities who have grown a bit and a few big core cities which can be used to make units quite fast. I keep playing Civ like a game of conquest and expansionism, but perhaps i should change tactics and try something sligthly conservative when it comes to expansion. I Always run into happiness problems, and trying to get the luxuries is hard. I want a big empire with lots of luxuries to become self suffcient and not relying on items from other. But perhaps i should try to get luxuries from city states instead, but how to get gold to bribe them? I know i can later in the game but i wxpand so much even early in the game and i usually have not got enough gold in the early parts of the game.
I've always simplified Liberty as the "incase your capital location sucks", which 90% of the time it doesn't. Always found the benefits of tradition will back fire if the capital you have isn't worth growing. Not sure if this is the best strategy, but I usually go for the free settler (considering sacrificing what little growth my capital can do is already a problem) then get a few honor to make up for the loss culture with killing barbs, then max out tradition for the aqueducts later on for my 2nd or 3rd city being the main. So many things can go wrong though (lose the settler, can't find a much better 2nd city in-time), meh~ liberty nightmares.
Seems very thought-through, big thanks! Playing atm and listening to the video for the third time as background sound! And I'm even writing notes on paper! Trying out implementing your strategies, playing Earth and started alone in N-America, so I'm trying a good tradition game! (Which will end in global bloodbath, ofc) :D
I randomly stumbled across one of your videos. I think I went a mix of both tradition and liberty in a recent game and managed to get all the cultures in both of those and half of the ones in rationalism and commerce. I had gotten quite a lot of culture wonders due to having a lot of production.
"TL;DR go tradition, thats what this video is saying"...Wouldve been nice if that wasnt halfway through the hour long video. Anyways great video, I learned a lot :)
The gap between Tradition and Liberty has frustrated me ever since G&K. If it were up to you, what changes would you make to Liberty to make it at least closer to Tradition? Or would it be something on a different level like making a bit longer before you have to choose your first SP? Or both? I'll admit I'm typing this around the 50:00 mark so if you answered this later and I look dumbo I apologize.
Infantry tech needs to be changed - it shouldn't be on the primary science tech path. City resistance needs to be greatly reduced or changed so that captured cities can actually be useful for science production. Entering modern through radio needs a nerf/change so that other tech paths offer ideology as quickly. Bulbing/rationalism needs a change - it's currently too easy to reach late game techs extremely early with an optimal science game. The entire modern and atomic eras are skipped. Abombs need a nerf/counter earlier so that people don't need to reach the info era to defend against an atomic era tech. Liberty 6 needs to allow purchasing of engineers - just like tradition 6. MAYBE there need to be a few minor tweeks to monarchy, and/or science/culture cost of additional cities.
Tradition:completion bonus only granting free aqueducts in the first 3 cities. Free monument only in first 3. Hurts tradition's efforts to go semi-wide and stops the ridiculous growth bonus that makes Tradition expansions so good. Also, the great engineers are just ridiculous in the late game and have to go. Liberty:a third less tile maintenance costs with the policy that improves tile improvement rate and gives a free worker. Republic 5% building production doubled. Should solve the gold problem and help Liberty expansions get past those nasty building chokepoints. Even with such a huge nerf to Tradition and buffing Liberty's best policies, this likely wouldn't be enough. World wonders are a bit too powerful and the tech/culture costs rise too rapidly with amount of cities.
I would say that there needs to be something in Liberty that allows you to get your national wonders easier. You might be able to get NC out before you expand to 10 cities, but the cost of all the other national wonders goes up so much that it is not realistic to get them.
The main problem with buffing liberty is that the AI will get the same bonuses, and the problem is compounded when playing on higher difficulties with all those AI discounts. Additionally, if you change the liberty finisher to allow purchasing of GE's, then an AI who finished liberty, and spammed cities with shrines and temples, will be getting manufactories and wonders much sooner than usual. I don't think there's a good way to resolve the issues with liberty without fucking up deity games.
I don't know why I am on RUclips, really. The one thing I really hate is images that move. Thank goodness, I was finally able to rest my eyes on the almost completely static Social Policies page for an hour and seven minutes. I am not sure what you were saying, because I was trying to keep my attention averted from the movement in the camera screen-in-screen
This may be the channel for you. I strongly recommend you check out the Civ5 tier guide. It's over 4 hours long and there is very little movement. Infact, for a small fee, I could perhaps send you a non-moving image of myself with a civ logo in the back ground. Just let me know!
Thank you for your amazing videos. I'm curious, you never mention the possibility of buying only the first social policy of some branches, especially Honor which is quite powerful culturally early in the game, and Tradition (if you're playing Liberty) for it's big border expansion Bonus. It seems to me that picking one or both of these 2 branch openings wouldn't get you too much behind in your social policies development (even maybe ahead with the Honor culture vs barbarians). I'd love to hear what you have to say about it! Thanks again for these videos they're very helpful.
I know you were talking almost exclusively about 6-person FFAs online, but I would like to input that as someone who plays almost entirely in marathon mode vs AI (hey, at least its on emperor/immortal), the extension of the length of the early-game multiplies the effectiveness of Liberty (and Honor and Piety, too) to the extent that they are all viable starting policies. Basically since everything costs most to produce, its importance is magnified tenfold. Units that normally obsolete themselves in a number of turns (like UU warriors) have a chance to shine in the early game. Also, a question: do games online always play at standard pace, or is that changeable? Marathon can sound like a real pain but it definitely can allow for a larger variety of gameplay (90% tradition start? sheesh!)
It's pretty simple. 1. Spam the fuck out of artillery units and GDR's 2. Also build some infantry units I guess 3. Walk up to enemy city 4. Attack until it's yours 5. Rinse repeat
You are so fucking smart, i can't believe how much im learning from these videos. I've been playing Civ for quite a while, but have always played very casually and it's nice to know a lot of these things now.
The reason I watched a video of yours for the first time (settling your capital): lmao how can this dude make a 31 minute video on clicking the goddamn settle button I'm gonna make fun of him. The reason I watch your video's now: they're fun and teaching and helpful and interesting!
Lots of great info i didn't know, and you clearly know a ton about Civ. I'd like to see these a little more concise, though. Other than that, very impressive.
I like the parallel this game presents in this discussion, because if I'm thinking from a historical context, ww1 was basically this discussion with nations like Russia, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottomans being liberty in style while nations like Britain, France, and Germany were more tradition oriented.
On the points about the bunching buildings that 'you have to get through' at 19:42; Public School, Windmill, Factory, Hydro Plant (plus Research Lab) - "all those buildings are extremely important buildings, very impactful buildings ..." Well, looks like I'm doing a few things right then, even if I don't know them off the top of my head and have to slow it down to 0.75 to hear them! :) Edit: Oh, and as a note to self: the discussion after all the basics have been covered begins around 34:45 -- this immediately refers back to the 20:50 comments on early vision and production order.
Liberty does have a few small advantages as well, in that the finisher does give you options other than the scientist - you can take the engineer and use it to finish Hagia for faith production and a religion, or straight take a prophet for religion, and if you know you are going to need to go that route, you can focus on culture via a strong culture pantheon like pastures, etc. to get you there if you don't have access to a strong faith producing pantheon. The early hammers also let you make use of grassland settles slightly more easily, and the workers let you improve jungle terrain more quickly.
Been a liberty player for ages. Did a test where I played the same game to t100 going lib and going trad. Trad won hands down in all categories except production. In fact, i tried lib a few times to try to get the same tech rate and development as the trad game but its just not possible. Really wish the game was more balanced.
yeap, its like i am already on another level. I can even beat the fucking bots on the 7th difficulty without even trying very hard. (telling the truth, its a little competitive but its doable) all thx to your vids. cheers :)
I just had this RIDICULOUS Liberty game as Spain recently. Got a an Early Uluru city and got tithe(cause gold hurts as liberty) and mosque and pagodas. And then i just rolled. Snowballed so hard discovered 3 wonders. And then just dominated, By modern era i had 100 extra happiness on 15 cities with Commerce Rationalism(one from done) And a full Autocracy Ideology filled in. And then i just picked up tradition because I could. Most pop in game before tradition. Man oh man. Was a fun game.
I am neither a super pro player nor a civ 5 expert but i have deticated around 200 hours on the game and have sone ci3 and insane civ2 experience, and i must say i completely agree with you 100% on what you say about liberty and tradition. Just yesterday i had a king game with bismark which i dedicated to liberty and from god damn first turns i realized how weak it is against tradition. Everything you said got confirmed step by step throughout the game, which pretty much made me wish i had picked up tradition. Money lacking early, could not grow without good luxury luck, i was SO far behind in science and culture, things that i didnt have to worry about in tradition except my first games which i lacked due to inexperience. Perhaps for super veteran players on the game who can synchronize every single detail of their game and dont miss even a single turn without sucking every advantage they can get from it, liberty is worthy..But is it worth to call something worthy because you are super high skilled and pick it when you can use those skills to make the superb tradition shine and give you a better game?
What is your opinion on dipping into liberty just for the early production boost and free settler (and production bonus for settlers) and then finishing tradition when playing as Poland? I realize that this isn't a viable strategy on most civs since you delay the tradition finisher and give up all your points on filler policies before starting rationalism, but Poland gets 2 free social policies before the renaissance, so it would only delay the tradition finisher for a bit. Is the early boost in production and the earlier expanding worth it?
+NervFaktor00 Poland is a bit of a wild card. I expect there are better policies to dump your filler points into, but you might be able to make it work as Poland.
Actually if you pick piety you can get a reformation belief that allow you to purchace all great people out there including engineers and scientists in the industrial era
"Man is not intended to see through the eyes of another, hear through another’s ears nor comprehend with another’s brain. Each human creature has individual endowment, power and responsibility in the creative p lan of God. Therefore, depend upon your own reason and judgment and adhere to the outcome of your own investigation; otherwise, you will be utterly submerged in the sea of ignorance and deprived of all the bounties of God." ~ Baha'i Faith
I often grab both Liberty and Tradition for the extra culture so I don't have too buy tiles. Then I hit honor early to get extra culture from killing barbs. This allows me to grab both Liberty and Tradition. -But Im not playing on Immortal with aggressive humans.
Stingy question: what happens to existing "normal" aqueducts in cities when that policy is adopted? Are the free 'ducts just bumped or queued to later cities? Are they dropped in as instant replacements? Or do you lose out entirely on the free maintenance if you don't delete existing ones?
One thing regarding what you say around 1:00:00 into it about Liberty and Tech: There is a feature in the Rationalism Bransch which gives 1 sceince for each trading post, right? or is it removed from Brave New World, and only in Civ V , the plain version? Anyway, a player who conquers a lot tends to get some workers captured too. And if you have a strong force of workers, then you can convert a lot of your farms into trading posts, which is nice (on the other hand, huge empires tend to miss out on the science bonus from Rationalism which only happy empires get). Also, i am thinking perhaps i should start to use to check the box which says "stop city from growing" for some less important cities in my huge empires. it is better for a big empire to have some big and some small cities rather than many middle sized ones. The small cities can still serve a purpose for military strategic reasons, or maybe to extract the strategic Resources and luxury Resources. And a big empire might get lots of coal and uranium too, which is nice, it means it can get a lot of the very important factories and Power plants later in the game. A smaller empire might not have a single one of the Resources. Trading with city states, yeah. But i usually play with huge empires (i Always considered them to be the best, because of my experiences with previous Civ games i guess) and when i see a city state which has something important, i don´t bargain for its oil or aluminium or coal. I just take it with military force, and then the smaller empires can´t get it by trading. So i Think it is important to try to cut the small ones off from the Resources at the source. :) But i have only played against AI/computers so i can´t say if it works as well if i play against real people, perhaps they send in units of their own too (or gift them), as a way to defend the city state they are dependent on to get strategic Resources. I like the fact you can play a game in such a way, because it bears a lot of resemblance to how the super Powers of the real World behaves / would behave. It makes Civ V a sort of educational experience in terms of geopolitics. :)
If you don't want to watch the entire 1 hour of video, he's basically saying that you should pick tradition because Liberty is more situational and you simply can't see enough of the map to make a logical decision on which culture policy to pick.
@FilthyRobot: There are another source of faith generation without those that you have mentioned - It's the belief named "Devine inspiration: + 2 faith per cultural wonder". Hence one wonder is equal one temple in term of faith gen.
Hi, FR, For me, this is a great guide, as I don't mind theory at all. I've played maybe just enough, solo, and a tiny bit multi-player, to have examples in mind. But theer is one little thing that everyone assumes that everyone else already knows. From the way you talk about internal trade routes, that extra food or extra hammers being brought back to a city by its caravan must not actually be subtracted from the other city's food or hammers. I think you're saying that a mother city can build a caravan, transfer it to a growing daughter city, and the tdaughter city can route it back to the mother city for a free growth boost (at only the cost of building the caravan and not using it for gold and maybe science). If that's not true, if a growth boost foer a newer city only comes at the expense of a donor city, then I don't know how internal caravans help. For me, the game doesn't spell that out absolutely,.
filthy - great videos! some of the best I have ever seen for any game. question: I watched a Persian game of yours (game 352?) and you seem to mention Tradition is no longer viable? has there been an update to your stance since this video?
I played a game on normal difficulty as Ghandi where i spawned not to far away from the natural wonder lake Victoria. Then that basterd Washington of america tried to settle a city two tiles away from it. So i chose a different location and bought my way to the lake Victoria tile. Then i got the hanging gardens in the capitol. I ended up with like 35 happiness and 20 something population in both of my cities by turn 178 :)
Is it a bad idea to do Liberty after completing the Tradition tree? Why? By the way, this is very useful! Someone please make notes and compile them for all of his videos and post them up! This would save a lot of time watching videos. For example, the first 15 mins of the video can be summarised as follows: Strengths of Tradition: 1. Better for growth and hence science 2. Centralised production means you can build more Wonders, faster 3. Large population means your cities can have more specialists Problems of Tradition: 1. Low early to mid-game production 2. Difficult to expand beyond 4 cities 3. Lower faith generation (to a lesser extent)
I put a point in honor once there are a few barbarians i can capitalize on, and other than that tradition for the first pick unless i really struggle with barbarians, then honor goes first. All other points i put in to liberty, i sometimes put one point in wonder prodution too
So, as a general conclusion: Tradition is the standard approach. While Liberty shines when you have tons of free land with fresh luxuries available, while it very heavily depends upon religion and faith, to offset its intrinsic disadvantages. (As are culture, gold, science) It has an advantage in military production over Tradition (at the cost of civil production) that is direly needed to conquer cities for further aggressive expansion , and to earn the lacking gold. Early tributing City States is not only easier with Liberty, but it becomes generally even a must.
sometimes I do open honor first but then switch to either tradition or liberty. The idea is that given the fact that there are lots of barbarians around, it'll help you clear them out without spending early turns building many units AND that by killing a few barbarian units you actually get back the amount of culture you spent on it (and alot more actually) pretty quickly.
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This guy...he'd probably beat me before i get past the loading screen
almost upvoted your comment, but i wanted to keep it at 444
My games finish before the loading screen is finished cuz my pc is an electric potato
Turn 0: Your Settler was captured by Mobile Infantry.
You must be one of the great writers
"Faith is science."
Chaos ensues.
+Luka Giga I was telling my cousin about civ off handedly and I mentioned something like"going to maximize my culture output and translate that to a maximal amount of faith that I'll use to buy great scientist and get Hubble" and you have to understand how ridiculous that sentence sounds to anyone who doesn't play civ.
Yeah, that's what I meant. :)
+misteratoz its just one thing that only makes sense in civ
+1 Isaac Newton
Yamato Jihad1488 game is game real life is real life
Poland: "Why not both?"
so true lmao
I did both as Netherlands,
por que no los dos?
@@lek289 How
@@marthvader14 it was 4 YEARS AGO
I still find myself coming back to this video (as well as every other Filthy civ 5 video) just because of how amazing they are. So much knowledge presented in such an eloquent and well structured way. Thanks for making these
Glad to hear they're still helpful for so many people!
@@FilthyRobot fuckin legend replying nearly 10 years later
Same here, I still dislike Civ 6 and Civ 7 is yet to come so back to Civ 5 :)
@@tonyvu2011 i have low expectations for civ 7 as the option to have different leaders for different cultures takes me out of it.
I feel obliged to comment and support this video just due to how willing you are to sit down for over an hour and talk through this in a logical and easy to understand manner. top advice and thanks
It amazes me how you can easily talk for over an hour, without breaks or edits, on a Civ topic. There's so much good information in these videos it almost too much to take in!
As a new player I will probably be avoiding the Liberty tree for a while as it does seem to be less reliable and forces more decisions that I'm not sure I'm qualified to make just yet!
Great video, I'll be sure to check out your others and I've started tuning into the stream when I can too.
Sometimes it disturbs me too--it's a bit of a dubious area of expertise. Also, I do draft notes before doing these!
Notch Jonson
If you're playing as Poland you can get both Tradition and Liberty, stability AND expansion ^^
***** I don't necessarily agree that's the best route though. The thing is that as soon as you get to Renaissance, you want to start adopting Rationalism whether you're Poland or not. As Poland you're only going to get 2 free policies before reaching Renaissance. Even assuming you build the Oracle, that's not enough time to finish both Liberty and Tradition unless you're really lagging behind in science.
Mindless Ambience
Well you could go Tradition and get some nice policies from Liberty, including getting to build the pyramids ^^
I don't think the Pyramids are generally very useful. I certainly wouldn't adopt Liberty just for Pyramids.
If I had some extra policies after finishing Tradition and before the Renaissance era, I would spend them on Patronage and/or Commerce before Liberty. That's just me though.
15 mins in this video, fk Liberty I am going Tradition, starts a new game..
i didnt get this comment even though
this was my second time watching this Video, i wanted to finish it seeing as i had only watched 16 minutes of it and figured i needed to finish it.
now i remember why...once again im doing exactly what u just said, fk lib go tra
"I'm gonna watch a few quick vids" Ends up here, watches it all...
+Dessik190 :)
+Dessik190
--->quick vids
--->Civ vids
select one.
+Dessik190 whenever you think civ, best not think quick like ever xD
Dessik190 iii
when your brain is churning out so much genius that it needs 10 seconds to cool down, in order to think of the word "World Wonders"
Why is it so much fun to listen to this guy's commentary about civ5? I like civ5 i play it often but sometimes i like to watch this guy rather than play myself , why?
is liberty better in a slower game like standard or marathon? That way their military units stay relevant for longer right?
Yes and no. The same weaknesses translate, but the strengths are further exemplified due to the longer time frames. Production takes such a center stage that it isn't much of a stretch to say the first to take a turn on something is often the one that gets it. Play marathon versus ai enough and you run into a thing where your typical play pattern gets upset by the differences in production. I can't count the number of times I've lost great library due to getting settlers out and not starting production till turn 160 plus instead of building it on turn 100 to 120
Tradition is so much easier to deal with but honestly, I think it's lowkey fun to go liberty. The games I play with my mates are just races to see who can get the science victory first and I think by going liberty, I can maybe spice it up for once lol
Your channel is a real asset to strategy gamers everywhere. It makes me yearn for channels with this kind of depth for some of the other games I'm into.
+sedghammer
Am I the only one who thinks the pyramids being unlocked by Liberty is kind ironic?
+Danilo Luís Faria You should take a look at this.
news.discovery.com/history/ancient-egypt/pyramids-tombs-giza-egypt.htm
Seems kinda flimsy to me.
@Xenovista Yet it is written in Egyptian texts and documents that there were many foreign slaves. There were papers found describing wealthy lords in Egypt who owned many slaves of semetic origins.
www.haaretz.com/archaeology/were-hebrews-ever-slaves-in-ancient-egypt-yes-1.5429843
@Xenovista But at one point, the jews were leaders of some lower regions of egypt. They were eventually overthrown and a kingdom of Canaanite leaders united the north and south under a counsel called the "Pharoah", which was actually multiple people. The bible describes Jacob, a slave to egypt before the events of Moses and the exodus, who rose to power in Egypt. Later, when the kingdom was united and many Hyksos (aka "israelite") peoples remained, there were slaves as well as servants used to build monuments. If the account of the bible regarding Egypt as a breadbasket and having been full of Jews is accurate, there is no reason that those minority people would not be angry to be stuck building monuments and buildings for the Pharoah.
Xenovista What are you smoking? Jews were definitely slaves in Egypt, what do you think Exodus means? Why do Jews celebrate Passover every year?
One significant advantage that a liberty player has is greater access to Strategic Resources. I can't count how many games I get great lands for Tradition and have a very solid mid-game, only to lose later on due to bad RNG and not having access to coal/uranium which can be incredibly crucial to success in those eras.
Overall though, fantastic guide!
Michael Rose turn on strategic balance or legendary start, they will give you guaranteed strategic resources.
Once i built a tradition empire that didn't have iron. *Iron*. It was back when i was just getting started in civ so i still managed to win because it was on settler difficulty but ffs i could build nothing. That actually made me realise how much we do depend on iron for infrastructure and things like that.
@@beargrills3508 I usually play without ever using iron.
@@beargrills3508 kinda makes ya wish you knew how valuable pikemen & crossbowmen are in the early game haha
@@GrantedBunion Right. But Iron, like horses, can boost your economy dramatically! Which then you can buy city-states which give you the Iron back anywase. Frigates, from a military standpoint, are the only thing iron is good for.
Hover along the time bar, the clouds move!!!!!
4 years late but holy fuck! the amout of hours i have in civ and i ddt know that
I can't possibly imagine a better guide than this, very efficient and well explained mr. Phil. I really enjoy the information/time (fraction) in your vids! So much accurate details given in the shortest time possible.
Thanks!
Haven't played Civ 5 in a long time, but I'm super impressed by your amount of knowledge and wanting to play again just after seeing two of your videos.
34:58
I love how you put your short answer in the middle of the video lol
I feel like Liberty should get some of the lesser bonuses from Order honestly.
Such as Resettlement, the thing that gives your cities god king but with food instead of faith, slightly better internal trade routes. You know, maybe anything at all to help with happiness in an impactful way. Obviously I don't mean the exact tenants.. But yeah.
Another really well thought out wrap up mate. I'm late to the game (had it about a couple of months, played 290 hours) and find your vids very helpful and for that I thank you. Well done :)
Thanks!
Thanks for the video Filthy.
The 5% technology and social policy cost per city is IMO, the defining factor in preventing liberty from being relevant. Since there is no production penalty; eventually, a liberty empire will outproduce a tradition empire, but that's doubtful. I feel if players were given a 1% penalty per extra city that scaled up to a maximum of 15% (similar to the production follower belief) would balance reasonably well (and speed the game up!) Monarchy is just too overpowered. Perhaps if you could relocate your capital there would be a case for liberty being more popular.
It's amusing that to combat ICS from vanilla and G&K, minimum distance between cities increased from 2 to 3 hexes, scientist specialists removed from libraries, nerfs to meritocracy, Forbidden Palace and HUGE buffs to tradition with the final nail in the coffin being additive tech/social policy costs have created a situation so one sided. Thematically, a wider larger empire SHOULD out produce and out compete a tall, centralised empire. Honestly, if the tech/SP penalty was removed or tweaked, players could reliably make a meaningful and difficult game decision between liberty/tradition. Not have it decided within 5 turns between whether your capital or viable or not. It would be nice to regardless of the strength of your capital, be able to go wide if that is your playstyle.
Also if converting population into production a la Civ4 Slavery would have been great.
It is sad as ICS was really a SP strategy and not really viable in MP. I honestly never saw the reason for the science penalty as happiness was a resource to help keep that in check.
Your TL:DR is 35 minutes into the video.
That isn't how TL:DRs are supposed to work sir.
Shouldn't it be a TL:DW because it's a video?
Excellent video. Very informative and useful guide, even for semi-experienced players like myself.
Great overview. He nailed basically everything. Short answer is Tradition is always safe, you really can't go wrong with it. Liberty can be better though if the circumstances are right.
Subscribed. One of the best streamers I've seen, coherent, insightful and a genuine learning experience watching you.
Thanks!
The rate and quality of information is so much that I had to backtrack more than a dozen times to keep up with what you're saying.
That is in no way your fault, if this amount of information was all scripted, your videos would be 3 times the lenght with no need imo.
This is more akin to a real class. Thanks for your work its really appreciated, and although its allways good to explore our own strategies and learn the game by fault and error, my enjoyment of the game is much higher because of your help.
Godbless mate.
Glad you're enjoying it!
Awesome guide. I quit studying to my tests to watch this video and it was worth it!
Surprisingly, Korea is very good in Liberty game thanks to its science bonus per specialist which allowed me to keep up with demographics science leader in the mid-game having 8 cities and around -20 GPT.
i like how liberty make me feel like im over everyone with so many cities but i guess after this video im wrong
I can't believe how much I improved by watching 2 of your videos. I will watch more in the future but I've been playing both tradition and liberty incredibly wrong until I watched your videos. I've tried Google to find some information but mostly it's not as in depth as your videos and I tend to interpret things differently as they meant, meaning I screw up again. Love your videos!
Thanks mate!
In a nutshell: "Liberty suffers..."
This is one heck of a guide. im new to brave new world, but i was doing some policy research for use with my single player mods on 10 player maps. i usually play liberty over tradition, but i usually play defensive and its clear based on your information that Tradition would far work better for me overall.
This guy really knows his shit! I can't believe I just sat for an hour and watched this. I'm gonna go play civs.
Thanks to Filthy's guides I always hold at least a 500pt lead in casual online ffa games with friends aha
This is the last guide I have to watch to completion and if I don't smash them in the early game too now I'll be surprised!
I learned so much here and I've played civ for 200 hours. LOL
I have 1000 an learned things
+misteratoz this guy has played for 3000
I have been playing for 9 years...
I played my first Civ 5 game. My AI teammate goes to war 4 times ruining my economy and friendships I’ve built up since the start of the game. So I’m too poor to afford more troops because of past wars and I can’t denounce him or stop him from being my teammate. He’s on the opposite side of the map and I have to deal with everyone he went to war with. Nobody accepted my peace treaties and I was apparently the one who warmongers while I was the only one denounced with people attacking me.
You are so chill when making guides, a totally different person from the one in MP games lol
I love you so much dude. I still play this with my friends and you are the singular reason I destroy them every time now lol.
I only play single player Civ 5, but I still got a lot out of this video. Thanks for making it.
This guy should do guides on every video game ever he's so good at it! Learning so much lol
wow i never knew that 15% growth in tradition was for all cities, always thought it was the first four
Cool and interesting stuff. I have palyed Civilization games for a long time, since 2003. it started with a game called Civilization: Call to Power. When you mentioned big empires can spam out a lot of units even if it takes a lot of turns for each city to build units, i thought of when i used to play Call to Power, and spent the early part of the game to expand like CRAZY!! :), build (or rather settle) a huge number of cities, got the Agricultural Revolution technology and then built a whole lot of the sort of cheap pikemen who were fairly decent (3 attack, 3 defence, not at all very strong units) units but very strong in huge numbers against empires with big obsolete ancient armies. (With a few musketeers as long range units to help out and huge numbers of pikemen it was easy to conquer). Even smaller cities could build pikemen fairly Quick, and a big empire and early focus on science meant iw as usually first with the good texhnology and advantages. Libraries were quite cheap in the game as well as settlers also. And once you changed government from the earliest one to Republic (i Think it was republic) then it was easier to expand and get enough gold for a bigger army.
A few years later i played Civ III a lot and by then a lot of things had changed inthe gameplay. There were borders, Culture, Resources and other stuff introduced in the game. But the expansion tactic was still an easy way to get ahead of the computer. Once you started building cities far away from the capital though, Civ III punished you a lot in terms of Culture. Some cities turned to the other empires if Culture was too weak, on the other hand you could also get cities if your Culture was stronger. Also, if a city was to far away, the cultural influence got lower, which meant less production i Think. But you could still expand very much.
The next Civ game i played was Civilization Revolution, which was quite somple compared to a lot of other Civ games and i Think expansion was quite easy to achieve.
Then i started playing Civ V as late as early 2014 (after a Humble Bundle) and i played it quite a lot during the first half of 2014, but in 2015 i have only played one game in the spring and Another one going on right now (or two actually, but i might not finish both of them). I play the regular Civ V and i still tend to play games where i want to expand a lot. Liberty seemed like the natural choice for me. In plain Civ V you also get the free settler much quicker, which is a big reason to go fr the monument, because essentially, getting 4 Culture per turn instead of 2 Culture per turn rom the capital means i can get to the free settler social policy much faster.
I have not played Civ V as in depth as Civ III or Civ Rev though. In the beginning i used to pick some stuff from both Liberty and Tradition, but nowadays i tend to get the settler Liberty social policy, then the production one and the worker one, and by then i only need 2 more social policies to clear out the whole area and get the bonus. And by the time i can choose my seventh social policy, i usually need gold, and happiness (or both) and Commerce tends to be better for getting such things. I know tradition gets some happiness, but only for big cities, which i usually have not got.
Expansion and social policies is a bad combination though. Happiness is a huge problem for me, especially when i want to conquer other cities and take over them during the middle phase of the game when i have lots of cities who have grown a bit and a few big core cities which can be used to make units quite fast.
I keep playing Civ like a game of conquest and expansionism, but perhaps i should change tactics and try something sligthly conservative when it comes to expansion. I Always run into happiness problems, and trying to get the luxuries is hard. I want a big empire with lots of luxuries to become self suffcient and not relying on items from other. But perhaps i should try to get luxuries from city states instead, but how to get gold to bribe them? I know i can later in the game but i wxpand so much even early in the game and i usually have not got enough gold in the early parts of the game.
New to Civ and your channel but you articulate ideas really well and very quickly. Be a professor, like someone else mentioned
I've always simplified Liberty as the "incase your capital location sucks", which 90% of the time it doesn't. Always found the benefits of tradition will back fire if the capital you have isn't worth growing. Not sure if this is the best strategy, but I usually go for the free settler (considering sacrificing what little growth my capital can do is already a problem) then get a few honor to make up for the loss culture with killing barbs, then max out tradition for the aqueducts later on for my 2nd or 3rd city being the main. So many things can go wrong though (lose the settler, can't find a much better 2nd city in-time), meh~ liberty nightmares.
Seems very thought-through, big thanks! Playing atm and listening to the video for the third time as background sound!
And I'm even writing notes on paper!
Trying out implementing your strategies, playing Earth and started alone in N-America, so I'm trying a good tradition game!
(Which will end in global bloodbath, ofc) :D
I randomly stumbled across one of your videos. I think I went a mix of both tradition and liberty in a recent game and managed to get all the cultures in both of those and half of the ones in rationalism and commerce. I had gotten quite a lot of culture wonders due to having a lot of production.
>That Moment you always pick liberty and you're like "OMG i'm doing this so wrong"
@@marcoflorian7935 to be fair, being able to play Liberty at all means you probably have solid fundamentals and understand the game a decent amount
"TL;DR go tradition, thats what this video is saying"...Wouldve been nice if that wasnt halfway through the hour long video.
Anyways great video, I learned a lot :)
WHen i play tradition the expansion rate im compelled to greedly attempt always causes everyone to declare war on me for being massively overstretched
i like finding new youtubers that i enjoy
Thank you for all your videos. Gave me a great insight on civ5 and how to play. Thanks again.
The gap between Tradition and Liberty has frustrated me ever since G&K. If it were up to you, what changes would you make to Liberty to make it at least closer to Tradition? Or would it be something on a different level like making a bit longer before you have to choose your first SP? Or both? I'll admit I'm typing this around the 50:00 mark so if you answered this later and I look dumbo I apologize.
Infantry tech needs to be changed - it shouldn't be on the primary science tech path. City resistance needs to be greatly reduced or changed so that captured cities can actually be useful for science production. Entering modern through radio needs a nerf/change so that other tech paths offer ideology as quickly. Bulbing/rationalism needs a change - it's currently too easy to reach late game techs extremely early with an optimal science game. The entire modern and atomic eras are skipped. Abombs need a nerf/counter earlier so that people don't need to reach the info era to defend against an atomic era tech. Liberty 6 needs to allow purchasing of engineers - just like tradition 6. MAYBE there need to be a few minor tweeks to monarchy, and/or science/culture cost of additional cities.
Good to see you up and about! Will you be producing more videos anymore?
Tradition:completion bonus only granting free aqueducts in the first 3 cities. Free monument only in first 3.
Hurts tradition's efforts to go semi-wide and stops the ridiculous growth bonus that makes Tradition expansions so good. Also, the great engineers are just ridiculous in the late game and have to go.
Liberty:a third less tile maintenance costs with the policy that improves tile improvement rate and gives a free worker. Republic 5% building production doubled.
Should solve the gold problem and help Liberty expansions get past those nasty building chokepoints.
Even with such a huge nerf to Tradition and buffing Liberty's best policies, this likely wouldn't be enough. World wonders are a bit too powerful and the tech/culture costs rise too rapidly with amount of cities.
I would say that there needs to be something in Liberty that allows you to get your national wonders easier. You might be able to get NC out before you expand to 10 cities, but the cost of all the other national wonders goes up so much that it is not realistic to get them.
The main problem with buffing liberty is that the AI will get the same bonuses, and the problem is compounded when playing on higher difficulties with all those AI discounts. Additionally, if you change the liberty finisher to allow purchasing of GE's, then an AI who finished liberty, and spammed cities with shrines and temples, will be getting manufactories and wonders much sooner than usual.
I don't think there's a good way to resolve the issues with liberty without fucking up deity games.
I can't get all this info on my head so I'll just pick tradition ok :p
I don't know why I am on RUclips, really. The one thing I really hate is images that move. Thank goodness, I was finally able to rest my eyes on the almost completely static Social Policies page for an hour and seven minutes. I am not sure what you were saying, because I was trying to keep my attention averted from the movement in the camera screen-in-screen
This may be the channel for you. I strongly recommend you check out the Civ5 tier guide. It's over 4 hours long and there is very little movement. Infact, for a small fee, I could perhaps send you a non-moving image of myself with a civ logo in the back ground. Just let me know!
Thank you for your amazing videos. I'm curious, you never mention the possibility of buying only the first social policy of some branches, especially Honor which is quite powerful culturally early in the game, and Tradition (if you're playing Liberty) for it's big border expansion Bonus. It seems to me that picking one or both of these 2 branch openings wouldn't get you too much behind in your social policies development (even maybe ahead with the Honor culture vs barbarians). I'd love to hear what you have to say about it! Thanks again for these videos they're very helpful.
I know you were talking almost exclusively about 6-person FFAs online, but I would like to input that as someone who plays almost entirely in marathon mode vs AI (hey, at least its on emperor/immortal), the extension of the length of the early-game multiplies the effectiveness of Liberty (and Honor and Piety, too) to the extent that they are all viable starting policies.
Basically since everything costs most to produce, its importance is magnified tenfold. Units that normally obsolete themselves in a number of turns (like UU warriors) have a chance to shine in the early game.
Also, a question: do games online always play at standard pace, or is that changeable? Marathon can sound like a real pain but it definitely can allow for a larger variety of gameplay (90% tradition start? sheesh!)
FriedChckn13 Online games are all played on quick speed
+FriedChckn13 I know. He mentioned a 90% tradition start ... I take Liberty about 90% of the time ... and don't max out my cities.
Would you consider making a tutorial on late game war?
It's pretty simple.
1. Spam the fuck out of artillery units and GDR's
2. Also build some infantry units I guess
3. Walk up to enemy city
4. Attack until it's yours
5. Rinse repeat
Victor Viridian
Except is isn't anything like that. It's all stealth, nukes and xcom.
FilthyRobot xcom wins me like half my games. I am forever on debt to their ridiculous paradrop
FilthyRobot stealth? i thought the mobile rocket artillery would play more of a keyrole though.
+Dicsoupcan he means stealth bombers
You are so fucking smart, i can't believe how much im learning from these videos. I've been playing Civ for quite a while, but have always played very casually and it's nice to know a lot of these things now.
***** Glad to hear they're helping!
Tradition for a easy game, Liberty for a micromanagement hell.
The reason I watched a video of yours for the first time (settling your capital): lmao how can this dude make a 31 minute video on clicking the goddamn settle button I'm gonna make fun of him. The reason I watch your video's now: they're fun and teaching and helpful and interesting!
Anne de Groot Glad to hear I pleasantly surprised you!
Lots of great info i didn't know, and you clearly know a ton about Civ. I'd like to see these a little more concise, though. Other than that, very impressive.
I like the parallel this game presents in this discussion, because if I'm thinking from a historical context, ww1 was basically this discussion with nations like Russia, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottomans being liberty in style while nations like Britain, France, and Germany were more tradition oriented.
On the points about the bunching buildings that 'you have to get through' at 19:42; Public School, Windmill, Factory, Hydro Plant (plus Research Lab) - "all those buildings are extremely important buildings, very impactful buildings ..."
Well, looks like I'm doing a few things right then, even if I don't know them off the top of my head and have to slow it down to 0.75 to hear them! :)
Edit: Oh, and as a note to self: the discussion after all the basics have been covered begins around 34:45 -- this immediately refers back to the 20:50 comments on early vision and production order.
This guy knows a lot about Civilization . . . And I love it!
Tradition all day every day 🇷🇺
Jokes aside, thanks for the guide Filthy 👍 as always, well done dude ❤️
Liberty does have a few small advantages as well, in that the finisher does give you options other than the scientist - you can take the engineer and use it to finish Hagia for faith production and a religion, or straight take a prophet for religion, and if you know you are going to need to go that route, you can focus on culture via a strong culture pantheon like pastures, etc. to get you there if you don't have access to a strong faith producing pantheon. The early hammers also let you make use of grassland settles slightly more easily, and the workers let you improve jungle terrain more quickly.
tl;tr: There are no friendly Liberty neighbors in Civ5. They always covet your lands.
been watching some of your guids... really great vids, thanks
Been a liberty player for ages. Did a test where I played the same game to t100 going lib and going trad. Trad won hands down in all categories except production. In fact, i tried lib a few times to try to get the same tech rate and development as the trad game but its just not possible. Really wish the game was more balanced.
+Gordon Yuda Guo NQMod makes Liberty a lot more fun!
what I got from this video is that it's time to go to
liberty city
sunglasses
yeeeaaaahhhhhhh
epic length man. Good stuff all around.
Unbelievable video! Helped surprisingly a lot. Thx :) I even joined the group :P Keep up the good work.
+spyros kavvas Cheers! Here's hoping you get a chance to enjoy MP Civ5!
yeap, its like i am already on another level. I can even beat the fucking bots on the 7th difficulty without even trying very hard. (telling the truth, its a little competitive but its doable) all thx to your vids. cheers :)
I just had this RIDICULOUS Liberty game as Spain recently. Got a an Early Uluru city and got tithe(cause gold hurts as liberty) and mosque and pagodas. And then i just rolled. Snowballed so hard discovered 3 wonders. And then just dominated, By modern era i had 100 extra happiness on 15 cities with Commerce Rationalism(one from done) And a full Autocracy Ideology filled in. And then i just picked up tradition because I could. Most pop in game before tradition. Man oh man. Was a fun game.
I am neither a super pro player nor a civ 5 expert but i have deticated around 200 hours on the game and have sone ci3 and insane civ2 experience, and i must say i completely agree with you 100% on what you say about liberty and tradition.
Just yesterday i had a king game with bismark which i dedicated to liberty and from god damn first turns i realized how weak it is against tradition. Everything you said got confirmed step by step throughout the game, which pretty much made me wish i had picked up tradition. Money lacking early, could not grow without good luxury luck, i was SO far behind in science and culture, things that i didnt have to worry about in tradition except my first games which i lacked due to inexperience.
Perhaps for super veteran players on the game who can synchronize every single detail of their game and dont miss even a single turn without sucking every advantage they can get from it, liberty is worthy..But is it worth to call something worthy because you are super high skilled and pick it when you can use those skills to make the superb tradition shine and give you a better game?
What is your opinion on dipping into liberty just for the early production boost and free settler (and production bonus for settlers) and then finishing tradition when playing as Poland?
I realize that this isn't a viable strategy on most civs since you delay the tradition finisher and give up all your points on filler policies before starting rationalism, but Poland gets 2 free social policies before the renaissance, so it would only delay the tradition finisher for a bit. Is the early boost in production and the earlier expanding worth it?
+NervFaktor00 Poland is a bit of a wild card. I expect there are better policies to dump your filler points into, but you might be able to make it work as Poland.
So confused why the alias is filthy... this was a very clean discussion about liberty vs. tradition.
hue
exacerbated! the word you're looking for is exacerbated! you almost have it! thanks for the help this is phenomenal
Glad it's still helpful all these years later!
Actually if you pick piety you can get a reformation belief that allow you to purchace all great people out there including engineers and scientists in the industrial era
"Man is not intended to see through the eyes of another, hear through another’s ears nor comprehend with another’s brain. Each human creature has individual endowment, power and responsibility in the creative p lan of God. Therefore, depend upon your own reason and judgment and adhere to the outcome of your own investigation; otherwise, you will be utterly submerged in the sea of ignorance and deprived of all the bounties of God." ~ Baha'i Faith
I often grab both Liberty and Tradition for the extra culture so I don't have too buy tiles. Then I hit honor early to get extra culture from killing barbs. This allows me to grab both Liberty and Tradition. -But Im not playing on Immortal with aggressive humans.
I think liberty is great for single player vs AIs in large maps. Especially if more lux mod is in play. Thoughts?!
I actually had an empire collapse under its own weight, massive unhappinness and uprising everywhere etc
Fascinating, the culture trees are different from vanilla Civ 5.
Stingy question: what happens to existing "normal" aqueducts in cities when that policy is adopted? Are the free 'ducts just bumped or queued to later cities? Are they dropped in as instant replacements? Or do you lose out entirely on the free maintenance if you don't delete existing ones?
One thing regarding what you say around 1:00:00 into it about Liberty and Tech: There is a feature in the Rationalism Bransch which gives 1 sceince for each trading post, right? or is it removed from Brave New World, and only in Civ V , the plain version?
Anyway, a player who conquers a lot tends to get some workers captured too. And if you have a strong force of workers, then you can convert a lot of your farms into trading posts, which is nice (on the other hand, huge empires tend to miss out on the science bonus from Rationalism which only happy empires get).
Also, i am thinking perhaps i should start to use to check the box which says "stop city from growing" for some less important cities in my huge empires. it is better for a big empire to have some big and some small cities rather than many middle sized ones. The small cities can still serve a purpose for military strategic reasons, or maybe to extract the strategic Resources and luxury Resources. And a big empire might get lots of coal and uranium too, which is nice, it means it can get a lot of the very important factories and Power plants later in the game. A smaller empire might not have a single one of the Resources.
Trading with city states, yeah. But i usually play with huge empires (i Always considered them to be the best, because of my experiences with previous Civ games i guess) and when i see a city state which has something important, i don´t bargain for its oil or aluminium or coal. I just take it with military force, and then the smaller empires can´t get it by trading. So i Think it is important to try to cut the small ones off from the Resources at the source. :) But i have only played against AI/computers so i can´t say if it works as well if i play against real people, perhaps they send in units of their own too (or gift them), as a way to defend the city state they are dependent on to get strategic Resources. I like the fact you can play a game in such a way, because it bears a lot of resemblance to how the super Powers of the real World behaves / would behave. It makes Civ V a sort of educational experience in terms of geopolitics. :)
If you don't want to watch the entire 1 hour of video, he's basically saying that you should pick tradition because Liberty is more situational and you simply can't see enough of the map to make a logical decision on which culture policy to pick.
You're a civ genius, I love it.
I've never had a Liberty game that went well. It becomes near impossible to build the National Wonders
what a bomb of knowledge. absolutely god tier
@FilthyRobot: There are another source of faith generation without those that you have mentioned - It's the belief named "Devine inspiration: + 2 faith per cultural wonder". Hence one wonder is equal one temple in term of faith gen.
Hi, FR,
For me, this is a great guide, as I don't mind theory at all. I've played maybe just enough, solo, and a tiny bit multi-player, to have examples in mind.
But theer is one little thing that everyone assumes that everyone else already knows. From the way you talk about internal trade routes, that extra food or extra hammers being brought back to a city by its caravan must not actually be subtracted from the other city's food or hammers.
I think you're saying that a mother city can build a caravan, transfer it to a growing daughter city, and the tdaughter city can route it back to the mother city for a free growth boost (at only the cost of building the caravan and not using it for gold and maybe science).
If that's not true, if a growth boost foer a newer city only comes at the expense of a donor city, then I don't know how internal caravans help. For me, the game doesn't spell that out absolutely,.
filthy - great videos! some of the best I have ever seen for any game. question: I watched a Persian game of yours (game 352?) and you seem to mention Tradition is no longer viable? has there been an update to your stance since this video?
It was probably a specific version of the NQ balance mod where Tradition was weaker compared to the other social policies.
Thanks for your reply. Will be donating to your stream!
Great video! Can you do a video on city state tributes? Thanks.
I played a game on normal difficulty as Ghandi where i spawned not to far away from the natural wonder lake Victoria. Then that basterd Washington of america tried to settle a city two tiles away from it. So i chose a different location and bought my way to the lake Victoria tile. Then i got the hanging gardens in the capitol. I ended up with like 35 happiness and 20 something population in both of my cities by turn 178 :)
I think that liberty is best for production and science because when I choose a great person I always try to choose a great scientists.
Ir you can choose a prophet for a religion.
Is it a bad idea to do Liberty after completing the Tradition tree? Why?
By the way, this is very useful! Someone please make notes and compile them for all of his videos and post them up! This would save a lot of time watching videos.
For example, the first 15 mins of the video can be summarised as follows:
Strengths of Tradition:
1. Better for growth and hence science
2. Centralised production means you can build more Wonders, faster
3. Large population means your cities can have more specialists
Problems of Tradition:
1. Low early to mid-game production
2. Difficult to expand beyond 4 cities
3. Lower faith generation (to a lesser extent)
I put a point in honor once there are a few barbarians i can capitalize on, and other than that tradition for the first pick unless i really struggle with barbarians, then honor goes first. All other points i put in to liberty, i sometimes put one point in wonder prodution too
So, as a general conclusion: Tradition is the standard approach. While Liberty shines when you have tons of free land with fresh luxuries available, while it very heavily depends upon religion and faith, to offset its intrinsic disadvantages. (As are culture, gold, science) It has an advantage in military production over Tradition (at the cost of civil production) that is direly needed to conquer cities for further aggressive expansion , and to earn the lacking gold. Early tributing City States is not only easier with Liberty, but it becomes generally even a must.
sometimes I do open honor first but then switch to either tradition or liberty. The idea is that given the fact that there are lots of barbarians around, it'll help you clear them out without spending early turns building many units AND that by killing a few barbarian units you actually get back the amount of culture you spent on it (and alot more actually) pretty quickly.
Hype!