As a Nigerian, my opinion on colonialism will be more nuanced than that of most westerners. On one hand, it was brutal in some ways but on the other it did play a huge role in bringing much of Africa into the modern age via introduction of modern tech, medicine, western education, and nation building. Also, one major good it did was abolish slavery. I cannot be more thankful for the British using their naval power and economic might to suppress the slave trade in Africa. Oh, I know they partook in it for a time, themselves, but it existed here long before whites ever came to Africa. Even my own ancestors of the Edo kingdom were slavers. What makes the British different is that unlike other regional African and Arab powers, they had the cultural & religious framework, wisdom, humanity and courage to actually stop the evil of slavery even at huge cost to their economy. God bless them.
Hear hear 👏 well said my good sir. As a descendant of Arab slavers from the Omani city of Sur. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement, and applaud you for it.
You can tell somebody to read a book and you can indoctrinate children, or you can just speak some facts and if somebody wants to know where you got your facts, then you recommend a book. But lots of parts of Africa were doing well before the western civilization came to Africa. A lot of Muslim conquerors and Jehovah witness type Muslims were coming to a lot of African territories and built states, but before the west and Islam, Africa want just a bunch of sitting ducks, they were building too.
This was like a tall glass of water after slogging through days and days of parched burning desert! Such a relief to hear a discussion based on research, facts and common sense!
Ha!! Ha!! It was the Hindus that invented the ZERO & even basic science, medicine, mathematics, astronomy etc.. certainly NOT the Europeans!! This shows the hogwash that is the European, so called civilzation!!
Currently, in Hong Kong, you have people wanting the British to return because Chinese Imperialism is so much more suffocating than British colonialism ever was. Such has turned out to be the case in many countries.
Hear hear, I quote Murray few years back… “If you’re one of those who’ve opposed the global American hegemony… just wait, you’re gonna love the Chinese hegemony.” 😆
Not just in Hong Kong. The same sentiment came from more educated people in India, Africa, you name it. I am still old enough to remember it. It has died down now because almost all people who saw life in colonies both before and after independence are now dead, and younger people have not known the old colonial life. So they have nothing to compare with the only life they know. So they fall for propaganda. There is a very interesting case of the author V.S. Naipaul. Author of many books of generally anti-colonial direction, he was lauded to the sky for most of his life. Proclaimed "the greatest living English language writer." Until he wrote a book that was not quite like others, that expressed general regret over the passing of the old ways, and disappointment with what has come instead.. And right away he almost disappeared from the literary scene.
The fact is that many of the British colonies were very well run. Rhodesia was once called the Switzerland of Africa. It had a highly developed infrastructure, including first class hospitals, a highly professional and dedicated civil service. It was also the bread basket of central Africa. Corruption was practically unheard of. As Zimbabwe the country has become a failed state constantly on the brink of starvation brought down by a gang of half-baked Marxists groomed by the Chinese who are now gnawing on the bones of what’s left. This is the truth. I know it because I was there.
Rhodesia was wellrun because they did it for themselves not the natives. An adult native couldnt even buy a bicykle without getting a permission. Something even white teenagers could do in Rhodesia. It was great for whites but the blacks did not like it. Is Mugabes reign better ? No but that dont justify the Rhodesian oppression.
A breath of fresh air. Who would've thought just a few years ago that two lads talking about real things without shame would be such a treat. Thanks boys, brilliant conversation.
Douglas is probably my favorite public intellectual. I love Jordan Peterson, but Douglas is so well-spoken and sharp and has a humor and depth that is unparalleled
How embarrassing for you. Murray is bad enough, but Peterson? Jesus effing Christ, that dude isn't a "public intellectual," he's a word-salad-spewing headcase, and a dumb person's idea of a smart person
@@chadjohns6955 I've read some of Peterson's writing and I've heard him speak. Like I said, he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person. He spews a lot of multisyllabic word salad, and weak-minded man-simps eat it up. The funniest part is how so many people (mostly dudes) listen to this emotionally fragile, Kermit-the-Frog-sounding crybaby for lessons on masculinity 😂😂😂😂😂
@@christheghostwriter real thoughtful analysis of ad hominem attacks. Nothing of substance, what I expect from a hateful person such as you appear to be. Good luck going on comment sections to talk about how much better you are than everyone actually doing something of value in the world
And a master builder of straw men he likes to serve up to his interlocutors. He's no public intellectual, he's a self publicising right wing contrarian shill.
Thomas Sowell has spoken and written extensively and eloquently on this subject for many years. His voice needs to be more widely heard. Good show Douglas.
Sowell talks at great length about the history of slavery. Sowell is essentia listening (RUclips) and to me is a brilliant voice of wisdom, as indeed the whole of this conversation is. @@Pan_Z
Dr. Thomas Sowell is one of my all time favorite people. I so wish that young black people would listen to him. They would see how race baiters like Sharpton have so misled them.
I loosely quote Murray few years back… “Those ideologically against the global American hegemony… just wait, you’re gonna love the Chinese hegemony.” 😆
The African people seem to appreciate the Chinese people. Maybe because the Chinese people treat them with respect instead of enslaving and genociding them, and stealing their natural resources.
In a couple of decades these two will be replaced by two Chinese academics making exactly the same argument about how western civilization was corrupt and now there is a superior more advanced civilization everyone lives under, the Chinese one. So don't be so cocky
I am against American hegemony, but the alternatives are sooooo much worse so I stopped talking about it.Some naive people think if you stop one hegemony its over.Its not, another takes its place.So all hail our American "overlords" ;p
No one likes hegemony of anyone; NOT American, Chinese or anyone else..!! Let alone nations, even a Child tends to hate hegemony of parents & society!!
I'm afraid that they will so I make sure that share them and get the word out. This one was mind-blowing. I even found myself laughing at some points because I know how badly some of the things said here will piss certain people off.
Excellent show, Douglas. I am currently reading Professor Gilley's "The Case for Colonialism" after watching his interview with Peter Boghossian; fascinating stuff. Thank you for creating this new series - I look forward to more content.
When I was in highschool we were taught that there were pros and cons to colonialism. Indigenous people suffered to some extent but also benefitted from being colonized. We accepted this as common sense. Any teacher who says this today would practically be signing his own resignation letter because he'd be fired for suggesting such a thing.
Depends on where you were ,the new world was strange scenario where majority died from diseases due to lack of immunity rather just being killed or butchered.
which helps explain why we have the problems we have as a society and why today's school leavers are in some ways deeply intolerant of any opposing views.
@@davidw8668 Sure a non-Colonial government can do that and indeed many pre-colonial places had dubious practices to write the least. Human sacrifice for example. Considering another less than human too.
In NZ in pre-European times, Maori were "colonising"" neighbouring tribes and sticking them in the ground oven. Radical Maori academics will say that this was a spiritual cultural practice. Actually, as Neil Oliver wrote in a recent book, eating and then defecating your enemy was the greatest dishonour. The British manifestly did not eat the colonised peoples, rather it was the other way round.
And yet..."we" in the West haven't been taught that. Wonder why.... ( Reminds me of the time when speaking with a Mexican-born/raised-turned-American-Citizen who was talking down about the history of American slavery and its evil, so I turned it back in the spirit of fairness and mentioned the Aztec brutality, human sacrifice included. He suddenly went speechless, his gears churning out some congnitively dissonant comeback, then muttered it had its purpose. LOL. Yeah, OK. It's not so Either/Or now, is it? World History is far more complicated than the Leftists would have us believe in their veiled racism. )
To be fair, a least the Maori didn't intentionally starve 3 million natives of India to death, like Winston "the Aryan man will prevail" Churchill did.
What's compelling about Gilley is he is so intellectually centered regarding his interest in truth of history and the principles of his field. The whole 'culture war' and the wokism that is lined up against him seems to just run off his back like water. There's no axe to grind or reactive stance that would undoubtedly consume others. He displays an admirable degree of personal integrity.
@@davidlloyd-jones8519 thanks. And am I missing something about how being in the ‘centre’, intellectual, pertains to objectivity? Strikes me as a clumsy and imprecise Americanism, that could mean anything to anyone.
@@lectorintellegat Agreed it was clumsy and imprecise - and my response was equally clumsy and imprecise - . and whislt i am not an authority as to what was originally meant - i do think my stab at it was pretty reasonable - in fact i would - could say that my respnse was 'intellectually centered. PS - not that the word used was centered - not center. And no, centered does not equal objective - but it does likely mean - or lean toward non biased. PPS - the comment by KB seems to have hit a chord too - so if you would prefer the word consensual as opposed to objective - that sounds reasonable too - no problem
On a visit to Kenya in 1991 as my friend and I sat around a table with 8-10 local natives, a gentleman, who looked remarkably like Sammy Davis Jr, explained to me that Kenya was better under British rule, because the British weren't racist, they treated every tribe and every white employee in the same way. He said we were respectful when we addressed them, and that British nurses were kind to the native children, not like the native nurses of that day. Employment was merit based and recommendations, not on tribal connections as in that day. Brought up in the 60s &70s I have always been grateful for that trip and what I saw and heard. They treated me most respectfully while I was there, I was just 32.
Howcome it is NEVER noted that America was a colony? Achieve independence but take some good lessons from the colonizers with your own resource and business management techniques.
How refreshing to be able to listen to intelligent, clear-thinking, open-minded people discussing matters in this way, giving themselves time to discover a more nuanced view instead of clambering aboard some guilt-trip bandwagon or other.
What a breath of fresh air it is to listen to a balanced conversation. It's a shame it won't reach the eyes and ears of the people who need to listen to this. Sadly, their eyes and ears are closed to this information.
In Canada we are currently experiencing a hysterical wave of anti-colonialism, to the point where any challenge to the existing, dogmatic narrative is met with social, cultural and even legal prosecution.
my university, like the others in Canada, are obsessed with "decolonizing" and "indigenizing" everything, which one can only assume means removing "colonial" things like rights, democracy, science, logic, philosophy, equality, peace, private property, etc.
@@Strange9952Your people are not condemned, its the actions of your ancestors that are condemned. If you were condemned then there would be groups of First Nation people terrorising and blowing up airplanes for their freedom.
@@jacobmatthews7524LOL You think the West or Europe has a patent on "democracy", "rights", law, science, logic ?? Everything you claim to be "Western" was Stolen from the Greeks/Romans by your ancestors who were themselves "civilised" by the Romans. Science, logic, philosophy were all again borrowed from the East by Europeans. Including mathematics, engineering, even the written language itself. Egyptians were building pyramids when your ancestors lived naked in caves! The Chinese had pottery and agriculture when you people couldn't even cook meat! The Indians invented steel while your ancestors didn't even know how to Smith iron. The Aztecs, the Babylonians, the Indus Valley, etc all were building Hydro projects like Dams and Canals while Europe was populated by tribes of hunter gatherers living in mud huts and caves. Democracy existed in thousands of cultures - in China, India, Mesopotamia, Phonecia, the Iroquois of North America etc. Stop this delusion that it is some Western invention.
Giving this a pre-emptive thumbs up based on the excellent quality of the discussion on General Lee. I'm DEEPLY appreciative of Douglas (who's long been one of my favorite contemporary social commentators in any case) and all those involved for making intellectual discourse available on these subjects. Thanks a million!!
@@douglasmurray This man is simply bias is own way, you're no better than the progressively minded on that front in promoting him over others. Historians needn't be political but this guy clearly is. He's arrogant, he's still telling people what they're 'allowed' to think. He will empower white supremacists even if he technically isn't one. Funny how he neglected to mention any of the massacres conducted upon black/brown people.
WOW. Douglas, this is a fantastic interview (and series). Your discussion with Bruce goes beyond the superficial and provides a much needed overview from someone who truly understands his subject and isn't afraid to provide facts that contradict the "narrative." It's exactly the type of interview that's been missing from RUclips. Many thanks for all of the care and hard work you've put into this series. I look forward to watching (and recommending) all of these discussions.
@@AminTheMystic 28:22 and onward is pretty interesting to my ear. Goes beyond the surface level talk of how governance, economies and other things should just be returned to indigenous peoples...and that's it. Hearing that Marxism was the "return to" system that anti-colonialists were pushing for in some cases was also interesting to learn. Really it's a good long-form discussion that gives a counter to some idealized storylines in history (like Ghandi not being as much of a factor for independence as we might like to think). Maybe these are all things you already knew, so congrats if you've done as deep of a dive as the host and guest. But why be bothered some of us found this vid to be quite good?
@@justinp.3256 "But why be bothered some of us found this vid to be quite good?" because if you are THIS pig ignorant over the subject, then who do you think you are defining what is "profound"? And calling Gandhi a 'silly man' is superficial, textbook meaning of the word. On top of that, Gilley clearly says one thing, and Murray another. Even Murray doesn't know what he is saying. But as long as it's vaguely anti-woke and pro your own biases, then it must be automatically good. Gilley is lying through his teeth when he sums up that there were no indigenous anti-colonial movements. It's counter to basic history. But then there are ignoramuses who'd lap up and revel in their ignorance... and label nonsense like this as deeply profound.
Mr Murray , I start the day looking for your interviews,speeches etc! I was born in a British colony,and deeply regret that they left. I do believe that the British Empire was a force for good,just like the Roman Empire. Thank you .
The Roman Empire?! They are the ones who destroyed the Second Temple and exiled most of the Jews from Israel. They also conquered Britain. Had the Roman Empire lasted, there would have been no British Empire
Fantastic interview and comments from viewers. For people who do not wish to live in ignorance by the censorship of facts and canceling the informed points of view of others, this video and series are of tremendous value and a godsend. Thank you.
Excellent interview. I've watched Bruce Gilley on his own channel, but his insight and understanding was brought to a higher pitch in this interview, thanks to Douglas Murrays intelligent listening and questioning. The conclusion that the "Anti's" are driven by resentment to spread their intellectual fog is spot on.
A lot of these left-wing independence movements were led by middle to upper class individuals who benefited from the education that colonial powers provided them. Unsurprisingly, individuals in the same social classes in the West are propagating and defending the way that these movements conducted themselves.
@@quintbromley2112 - An audio-only version of the debate is available here on U tube. Not yet found a full video version. Gladwell is clearly unprepared and behaves disgracefully, quickly turning to throwing ‘-isms’ and ‘-ists’.
As someone who has lived in Africa for decades and visited most of its countries at one time or another, I found this video fascinating. I agreed with Professor Gilley right up until the point where he brushed off Chinese economic Imperialism. His position was that the Chinese do not seek to assert their own systems of government upon African nations, which is true, but he completely ignores the influence that China has gained in global organisations such as the UN and WHO with the aid of votes from its client nations. For example, China has almost completely shut down any debate about the origins of Covid-19 having previously installed a representative from a client state as head of WHO. Similarly, one cannot dismiss the fact that China enjoys a virtual monopoly on the raw materials needed for global electrification, as demanded by elements, of the UN, which also mostly emanate from Africa. Perhaps Bruce should take another look at Chinese Imperialism.
China official politic about Islam is mental illness. They are using same kind of metods like Mao. Camps were cleaning whole mind and Brainwashing new order of Xi. China is also much bigger and evil that truth. Helping Russia, Bad Threath to Taiwan, Role in middle east terrorism are growing. 2month ago two chinise engineer expert of tunnels founded by IDF in Rafah/Gaza. China steal Patents and is involved US campus & Academia chaos. China is military training in Cuuba.
@@MrGolov-te5ebToo many folks tossing around, terms such as, colonialism, imperialism, and immigration, in ways that are inaccurate, incorrect or incontextual.
Thank you very much for this brilliant and fascinating discussion around Colonialism. For me, an enlightening and very welcome series - look forward to the next episode.
Very interesting and well-conducted interview, great speakers. However, I missed a discussion of the alleged economic exploitation of colonies by the colonial powers, transfer of raw materials and other forms of wealth, etc. That is a major point of modern criticism of the colonial era and it would have been interesting to hear both speakers on that issue.
Subscribed after episode 1. Sharing with all my friends after episode 2. What a breath of fresh air. Thank you to Douglas Murray and Nebulous Media for putting out this content.
💯…so much is accepted and spouted nowadays as truth without proof or knowledge. Thank goodness there are those who are wiser and present a truer picture.
I really love Douglas Murray, I've read every one of his books several times and I try to read as many articles of his that I can. However, in the recent years, I've become increasingly bored with all the woke stuff. While I agree with him on all of it, I'm so tired of hearing the same things over and over again. I expected this to be in the same vein but it was actually a really insightful video. I learned a lot and I will definitely be reading some of Bruce Gilley's works!
I understand what you mean, but if Douglas is offered a couple of grand every time he's invited on podcasts/news channels to be the voice of reason, I don't blame him for accepting.
@@tchai91 agreed, I dont blame him either. obviously want him to make as much money as possible; but hopefully that will eventually allow him enough freedom to go back to writing about other things
Hearing about the woke nonsense is certainly tiring and increasingly depressing. Every week it just seems to get worse. But occasionally, interviews appear that shine a bright light in the darkness - the last such was when Dr Gilley appeared on the Triggernometry podcast. Well worth a look-see!
Mr Gilley is dressed like your typical university history professor. He also looks like my 1986 high school ancient history teacher, Mr Ryan. He eventually went into politics. He was one of those rare teachers who inspired his students and left a lifelong mark on them. I have Mr Ryan to thank for my lifelong interst in history. Today, I homeschool our 15 year old son and history is my most favourite subject to research for his curriculum and learn about myself. We just completed a 25 page research project on Australia (where we love). Before we pulled him out of the public education system he told me he wasn't learning about white British colonial history. That they were only ever teaching about aboriginal history. We have rectified that and he now knows about his white ancestry past. That is his fathers heritage. Mine is from the Canary Islands and is of Spanish heritage. I have also taught him about the history of the islands and how he has Guanche Aboriginal DNA in him (he has had his DNA done to confirm it) and he knows the Portuguese, Italians and Spanish Conquistadors invaded the Islands but not without a brave 100 year long fight by the Guanches. The last king "Mencey" to die was Mencey Bencomo and he died in a brave battle worthy of a Warrior. Our son likes Vikings so once he found out he is descended from Guanche Warriors he is proud of his ancestry.
The interpretive dance quip was absolutely priceless. Thank F**k for Douglas Murray. I've been bored forever by history due to poor school options that left me having to chose between History & Geography. I find this series fascinating. Thanks.
@@paramidge8935 My year was the GCSE 'guinea pig' year during the teacher training strikes. The entire system changed that year causing absolute havoc. We were taught the wrong curriculum for Physics resulting in nobody passing the higher paper due to a mix-up in examination boards. It was the year course work became 40% of the final grade. The teachers were missing for most of the time. It was a complete mess. From 'Options' to Subjects, everything was turned upside down, often without the teacher's knowledge.
@@joshuataylor3550 Tjhat was not at all my perception. They could care less if people disagree or not. There emotional about not being able to state there case without being attacked. Thje attacks are always ugly as ther character assasinate rather than listening to a perspective that is not allowed to be stated without backlash. L/Chaim
I've been watching your interviews and common sense speaking out for about 4 years and am always so glad that you (Douglas) are willing to speak out, use your great knowledge of history, courage to stand against the madness and with that wonderful voice you have!
Hello Douglas. Thank you! I've read your books and look forward to receiving Bruce Gilley's book on Colonialism. I am a huge supporter of Britain and the Commonwealth and will be better equipped to defend it.
Wow. I had to read King Leopold’s Ghost for a western civ class last year and I totally bought into the numbers. I was appalled by it. I saw evidence of bias but I couldn’t fathom a figure so serious being misrepresented. Thank you both for presenting the truth.
What "truth"?. "Ghost" may be sensationalist to a point but there's plenty of other material which corroborates much of it. Perhaps the numbers are exaggerated but he points to many depopulated villages, etc etc. Sleeping Sickness was raging at the time too. 10 million is certainly a lot but this was someone else's estimate as I remember, Hochschild just quotes it.
There's so many perspectives and so much history to dig, it depends on the person that does the digging to build their perspective. I have my own perspective and channel and I haven't gotten to colonialism on video yet because I'm starting from the beginning. But I'll get there eventually. I have tons of resources and notes though that form my own story.
Yes, you were a promoter of slavery. You were the first to come to West Africa and the last to leave. You did not leave voluntarily; you were pushed out. Yes, you ought to feel bad.
I am so glad you are doing this. As a HS teacher and someone who got a history degree almost no pro of colonialism were/ are ever mentioned. Once I got an econ MA and really thought about opportunity cost it really became clear that History is complicated. Costs and benefits. Half way through, well done.
High school teacher here in a very conservative Catholic school. Our textbooks repeat these lies, too. The Belgian Congo is the perfect example. We must not let sensationalism and ignorance supplant real learning!
@@semilio1 I'd like to follow up on this point. The atrocities committed by the Belgians in the Congo are some of the worst ever recorded. Thumbs cut off, people burnt alive, children raped and killed, if the quota of work wasnt met. This is all publicly available information, you can see pictures and documented evidence of this. What on earth do you mean this is lies? It's scary and honestly sad, that we even have to debate what happened to the Congolese people during Belgian rule
@@dheerajthapliyal9533thats the congo free state. These cruelties also happened in the rubber colonies of france portugal and germany in africa. Why dont you talk about those
@@georgeokoro1149 well, since you mentioned it, what had replaced the old apartheid government has turned out to be far worse for black South Africans than apartheid ever was: Endemic corruption, a collapsing economy and education and zero job creation. My experience was further north with the various black tyrants there: Nyerere, Amin, Bokassa, Banda, Kaunda, Mugabe, Machele etc. All genocidal maniacs who the left gave a free pass to.
What a wonderful discussion. The intelligence and erudition of Murray and Gilley gives so much pleasure. The inability of the woke generation to ignore, misunderstand or re-write history is frankly appalling. Subscribed!
Wonderful discussion? Really? How would you like it if Africans and Asians were to come over and colonise Europe? Impose it's language, religion, culture and values on you and your kind? Oh wait, I almost forgot, it's already happening. Thank God
Enjoyed this discussion between 2 good men,with respect for each other.I have learned a considerable amount of of history of empires. Would love to have more of these 2. Thanks indeed.
Fascinating. This view of colonialism needs to be widely taught. I learned a lot. Thank you Bruce Gilley and Douglas Murray. This was well worth my time and attention.
Thanks for starting this series I'm really enjoying the concept as it delves into topics/people that I had only known in a shallow way. I like the framing of 'rounder' explanation, as its non-accusatory/inflammatory and shows the necessity of understanding a whole and its context. Although I did not have any concrete opinions about colonialism in the past I was caused to muse to myself that it must surely be hard to condemn something, while also maintaining that you cannot talk about it. It seems any condemnation without context is sure to loose any meaning or cultural impact over time. Subscribed.
I used to think learning about colonial history was so boring in high school but now that it's "forbidden fruit," I can't get enough of it. Thank you. I've watched this twice.
Absolutely fascinating - thanks both. My uni is going through decolonisation and as a biologist, I'm not equipped to properly resist, even though I can identify obvious flaws e.g. that many of the ideas behind decolonisation are at least contested - we require erudite debate. Of that, there has been little.
Same situation at my university. Except I’m doing an MA in History and it’s just a constant barrage of anti-colonial/anti-Western bias. The recommended reading lists consist almost entirely of Marxists, Anti-colonialists, and postmodernists. In order to get a more balanced perspective of colonial history you have to read way outside of the recommended reading lists. If anyone is interested in the history of the British Empire I would recommend the work of: Tirthankar Roy, Zareer Masani, Jeremy Black, Niall Ferguson, and even Kartar Lalvani’s book ‘The Making of India: The Untold Story of British Enterprise’ is worth checking out. 👍🏻
@Mal Preece - sounds awful. The best way to fight this is student feedback. Please complain, even if anonymously. I'm refusing to decolonise my teaching material, based on the premise that it's racist to do so. I teach, based on the quality of the material, not the ethnicity of the individuals who produced it.
Read Thomas Sowell, Douglas Murray, James Lyndsay and Helen Pluckrose they will give you the tools to resist. Compared to what? Is the ultimate question.
Are universities aware of how their reputation has plummeted among the general public in recent years? A genuine question as what's happening in colleges seems utterly surreal in its stupidity and bigotry to outsiders looking in. Must be grim to work there.
@John Neville - it's a mixed picture where I work. Senior management are of the view that society want decolonisation etc. They also don't seem to see that academics are afraid to speak out on a host of issues for fear of retribution - loss of collaborations and maybe even being forced out of post. Older academics, and some younger ones, smell the bullshit. But for the moment, there's collective madness in the air that's difficult to counter.
Wow. Fantastic discussion. Prof. Gilley's book is on the way, too. Can't wait to read it, and probably his newer one mentioned about German Colonialism.
Brilliant Brilliant Brilliant! 👏🏽 Finally, someone has the moral courage to speak the inconvenient truth! Imperialism (particularly British Imperialism) was, on balance, a force for good globally. This was especially true for marginalised groups such as women and the lower economic classes. Even Marx acknowledged the benefits of colonialism! You only have to look at what happened to former colonies when the British left to realise which is the superior hegemony. Hence the post-colonial exodus to Britain from former colonies. This discussion needs to become part of the mainstream narrative...thank you Douglas and Bruce ❤
A wonderful interview, thank you both very much. I actually am that hated figure, a colonialist! Born, brought up and educated in Kenya I had the most wonderful childhood, not mainly among my own white tribe, but amongst the indigenous peoples. The Mau Mau was a cruel and unnecessary horror as the country was galloping fast towards a freedom for all. And Kenya today is a good place to live, safer than the U.K.
Mambo Louise - I have emigrated from UK to maumau homeland Nyeri and would totally agree that Kenya is a far safer and less F'kd up place - the people here are GREAT. Nothing like what you would imagine from the woke westerners. In fact i have discovered that whilst the origins of maumau had their genuine grievances - soldiers not being given land post burma war.. It was the marxists (during the end of cold war) who poured petrol onto the fire - and so the whole thing became more of a conflict between western ideology and marxist ideology. The marxists wanted to be the cultural colonizers - and sadly the kenyans got caught up in the middle Bora kabissa
@@najbritcol Immigration into UK - Well in my personal opinion/ philosophy - when you see 10,000 people moving in one direction, then you do not follow like a sheep, you should realise that the opportunities have peaked - and it is now time to look elswhere and possibly go in the opposite direction. Africa is now the future and the place to be. I myself have emigrated from UK to Kenya - the opportunities are staggering
Jambo, rafiki! I also grew up in Kenya, where my grandparents went after WW1, & lived through the Mau Mau. I equate the Russian atrocities of today with those of the M.M. then. The intention of the Colonial administration of the 3 territories of Kenya, Uganda & Tanganyika was to make them fit to govern themselves at the earliest possible opportunity but thanks to MacMillan independence was rushed through at least 10 years too soon, leading to the problems in governance seen thereafter.
Thanks for having these conversations Douglas. Alternative viewpoints and interpretations of these controversial topics are necessary and almost impossible to have in real life here in the Caribbean. You’d never hear this discussed at the University of the West Indies I’ll also add this: our French neighbors (Martinique, Guadeloupe and French Guiana) see what has happened to their Anglo neighbors (Trinidad, Jamaica) and see their future if the metropolitan government left. They’d be dysfunctional best case like us, or a disastrous catastrophe like Haiti at worst. They sensibly avoid independence like the plague.
Under tribal law the headman had the power of life and death. A husband could accuse his wife of unfaithfulness and given the corruption the wife would be mutilated or killed. This stopped with the introduction under the British of two tier law, civil law and criminal law.
What are you talking about? Africans had no standing in British Courts. Their prior land claims were ignored and the British Court handed out bits of paper that then let British Soldiers violently evict Africans from their own land.
Very interresting that writing an article brings on an angry mob. Some topics are not safe. Who will dare to write about them? Bruce Gilley. I need to read his work.
I may be the worst history student who ever lived. Certainly, my high school history teachers thought so. However, I've had this vague idea that the world has always been colonial, or tribal or something akin to that. Everywhere, all the time, until recently. And I've also wondered what things would have been like if not for the British Empire, etc. Thank you so much for this!
@Lynne J you’re more or less correct. Damn near every culture prior to the last couple centuries was firmly of the opinion that people that weren’t them weren’t really people.
@@Muljinn I also suspect that there is nowhere on earth were there isn't a dominant culture. Some cultures are more welcoming than others, and some places are more multicultural, but I think if you don't belong to the dominant culture, to some degree, you will feel like an outsider. I don't think it can be avoided.
Literacy rates in India prior to the East India company arriving in 1700s were 16%. By 1948 they'd dropped to 5%. India in the 1700s had a stronger economy than most European countries. What exactly was it that needed civilising?
I think our modern form of historical censorship is doing a lot of damage to our current political and social makeup. Since people nowadays don't seek to understand both the positives and negatives of different ideologies & the real world effects they've had it hurts our path forward. I think this channel is a lovely step in the right direction & I can't wait to see some more enlightening conversations.
Critically reasessing the multiple negative impacts of European colonialism on colonised peoples is not censorship! Wilfully destroying official records of torture as the British did as Kenya was about to gain independence, that's censorship. Banning books, films or curriculae focusing on groups previously under-represented in high school history lessons is censorship.
@davidmundowyahoo7839 What Im talking about when I say censorship is the unwillingness to teach anyone anything that can be seen as controversial. By doing that people losse the nuance of history and start generally thinking about complicated events.
Gilley is one really smart guy and here he shows that he's done the homework that not one woke latte-sipping "progressive" ever even considered doing on this issue. Kudos to him for sharing his knowledge and especially for his courage to stand up to the anything-but-inclusive inclusive crowd. Kudos also to Murray for conducting such a great interview, to say nothing of writing his wonderful books and articles. I'm now hooked on his Uncancelled History series. Many thanks Mr. Murray.
when you invoke stupid backwards toxic usa american sayings thats now poisioning the world i know yur biased to the right wing and look for evidence to support your poor views without critiquing it
Great discussion. Feel quite proud of the old empire now. Not an exercise in perfection obviously, but an important step in the advancement of many ares of our world.
Throughout history colonialism has taken many different forms. If we would aspire to any standard of objectivity and of a balanced historical perspective, it is important that we distinguish between them. There were colonial enterprises which were popularly motivated and democratically organized while others were patently imperialist, brutally racist, and ruthlessly exploitative.
Spot on. I remember reading (in a biography of Lord Salisbury I think), that in at the start of the 20th century the long term plan of the India Office was for India to become a self governing Dominion along the lines of Australia and Canada in the 1980s. Not quite sure about the idea that the early empires got the best and easiest "bits". Gilley mentioned the Portuguese in the context of being late to the table. Is he referring to the same Portuguese that pioneered the coastal exploration of Africa and penetration into Asia via the Indian Ocean in the 16th century? The same Portugal that kick started the British Raj when they gave Bombay to Charles II as part of his wedding dowry in the 17th century? Yeah, not sure they were "late to the table".
The same is happening in Mozambique and South Africa where people are openly saying that they are worst off under African rulers. It breaks my heart to see the corrupt governments
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As a Nigerian, my opinion on colonialism will be more nuanced than that of most westerners. On one hand, it was brutal in some ways but on the other it did play a huge role in bringing much of Africa into the modern age via introduction of modern tech, medicine, western education, and nation building.
Also, one major good it did was abolish slavery. I cannot be more thankful for the British using their naval power and economic might to suppress the slave trade in Africa. Oh, I know they partook in it for a time, themselves, but it existed here long before whites ever came to Africa. Even my own ancestors of the Edo kingdom were slavers. What makes the British different is that unlike other regional African and Arab powers, they had the cultural & religious framework, wisdom, humanity and courage to actually stop the evil of slavery even at huge cost to their economy. God bless them.
Sir you are wrong, you are looking at it surface level. Please read Fatherless by Dele Ogun and get back to me.
Hear hear 👏 well said my good sir. As a descendant of Arab slavers from the Omani city of Sur. I wholeheartedly agree with your statement, and applaud you for it.
@Lil Rawri read the book first and get back to me
@Lil Rawri That's up to them. You can only offer people a pathway to enlightenment if they reject there is nothing you can do
You can tell somebody to read a book and you can indoctrinate children, or you can just speak some facts and if somebody wants to know where you got your facts, then you recommend a book. But lots of parts of Africa were doing well before the western civilization came to Africa. A lot of Muslim conquerors and Jehovah witness type Muslims were coming to a lot of African territories and built states, but before the west and Islam, Africa want just a bunch of sitting ducks, they were building too.
This was like a tall glass of water after slogging through days and days of parched burning desert! Such a relief to hear a discussion based on research, facts and common sense!
Moscow troll.
@@busterbiloxi3833
Duhhh
Who, you ?!? 😂
@@busterbiloxi3833
Moscow trolls are Marxists - that comment is not marxist.
@@busterbiloxi3833🤣🤣🤣🤣when you can’t handle a opinion that differs with yours label them a troll. Pathetic
Ha!! Ha!! It was the Hindus that invented the ZERO & even basic science, medicine, mathematics, astronomy etc.. certainly NOT the Europeans!! This shows the hogwash that is the European, so called civilzation!!
The more I’m told to hate my heritage and culture, the more I find to love in it.
Sounds like you have no moral backbone or capacity for critical thought
Well said.
Afrikaner Boer?
@sarahhale-pearson533
Feel this way about Fourex (Queenslander)
🥂
There is perspective in everything
The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly
But yup ownership your heritage is important
Currently, in Hong Kong, you have people wanting the British to return because Chinese Imperialism is so much more suffocating than British colonialism ever was. Such has turned out to be the case in many countries.
A poll in Jamaica had the majority wanting British rule again because of the massive corruption they now have.
BULLS#^T. Get OFF your medication. It's clearly not working.
Hear hear, I quote Murray few years back… “If you’re one of those who’ve opposed the global American hegemony… just wait, you’re gonna love the Chinese hegemony.” 😆
source?
Not just in Hong Kong. The same sentiment came from more educated people in India, Africa, you name it. I am still old enough to remember it.
It has died down now because almost all people who saw life in colonies both before and after independence are now dead, and younger people have not known the old colonial life. So they have nothing to compare with the only life they know. So they fall for propaganda.
There is a very interesting case of the author V.S. Naipaul. Author of many books of generally anti-colonial direction, he was lauded to the sky for most of his life. Proclaimed "the greatest living English language writer."
Until he wrote a book that was not quite like others, that expressed general regret over the passing of the old ways, and disappointment with what has come instead..
And right away he almost disappeared from the literary scene.
The fact is that many of the British colonies were very well run. Rhodesia was once called the Switzerland of Africa. It had a highly developed infrastructure, including first class hospitals, a highly professional and dedicated civil service. It was also the bread basket of central Africa. Corruption was practically unheard of. As Zimbabwe the country has become a failed state constantly on the brink of starvation brought down by a gang of half-baked Marxists groomed by the Chinese who are now gnawing on the bones of what’s left. This is the truth. I know it because I was there.
Still depended on the unprovoked murder of millions. Is that worth some nice admin I guess?
"Once" ... reallly makes you think that Africa for Africans is a HUGGGE Mistake.
So sorry to hear, my disseration was partially on the efforts to turn Zanu guerrillas through the protected villages program.
Rhodesia was wellrun because they did it for themselves not the natives. An adult native couldnt even buy a bicykle without getting a permission. Something even white teenagers could do in Rhodesia.
It was great for whites but the blacks did not like it. Is Mugabes reign better ? No but that dont justify the Rhodesian oppression.
Not all colonialists are made equal. Observe the contrast with the colonies ruled by the French for example. What a blight on humanity.
A breath of fresh air. Who would've thought just a few years ago that two lads talking about real things without shame would be such a treat. Thanks boys, brilliant conversation.
Douglas is probably my favorite public intellectual. I love Jordan Peterson, but Douglas is so well-spoken and sharp and has a humor and depth that is unparalleled
How embarrassing for you. Murray is bad enough, but Peterson? Jesus effing Christ, that dude isn't a "public intellectual," he's a word-salad-spewing headcase, and a dumb person's idea of a smart person
@@christheghostwriter Sure thing, what have you done worth noting that you're the expert. What a hateful and poorly thought out attack
@@chadjohns6955 I've read some of Peterson's writing and I've heard him speak. Like I said, he's a dumb person's idea of a smart person. He spews a lot of multisyllabic word salad, and weak-minded man-simps eat it up. The funniest part is how so many people (mostly dudes) listen to this emotionally fragile, Kermit-the-Frog-sounding crybaby for lessons on masculinity 😂😂😂😂😂
@@christheghostwriter real thoughtful analysis of ad hominem attacks. Nothing of substance, what I expect from a hateful person such as you appear to be. Good luck going on comment sections to talk about how much better you are than everyone actually doing something of value in the world
And a master builder of straw men he likes to serve up to his interlocutors. He's no public intellectual, he's a self publicising right wing contrarian shill.
Thomas Sowell has spoken and written extensively and eloquently on this subject for many years. His voice needs to be more widely heard. Good show Douglas.
Sowell is a national treasure
Any specific videos or writings where Sowell discussed colonialism?
Sowell talks at great length about the history of slavery. Sowell is essentia listening (RUclips) and to me is a brilliant voice of wisdom, as indeed the whole of this conversation is. @@Pan_Z
Dr. Thomas Sowell is one of my all time favorite people. I so wish that young black people would listen to him. They would see how race baiters like Sharpton have so misled them.
@@Pan_Z You have a YT search bar? It is easy to find videos.
Ahh. Found more Murray! I will soak this series up. Looks like i am 11 months late but who cares. Douglas is timeless.
So well said!
I loosely quote Murray few years back… “Those ideologically against the global American hegemony… just wait, you’re gonna love the Chinese hegemony.” 😆
The African people seem to appreciate the Chinese people. Maybe because the Chinese people treat them with respect instead of enslaving and genociding them, and stealing their natural resources.
In a couple of decades these two will be replaced by two Chinese academics making exactly the same argument about how western civilization was corrupt and now there is a superior more advanced civilization everyone lives under, the Chinese one. So don't be so cocky
I am against American hegemony, but the alternatives are sooooo much worse so I stopped talking about it.Some naive people think if you stop one hegemony its over.Its not, another takes its place.So all hail our American "overlords" ;p
😂
No one likes hegemony of anyone; NOT American, Chinese or anyone else..!! Let alone nations, even a Child tends to hate hegemony of parents & society!!
What a delight to listen to Douglas and his guests. I don't want these episodes to ever stop..
I'm afraid that they will so I make sure that share them and get the word out.
This one was mind-blowing. I even found myself laughing at some points because I know how badly some of the things said here will piss certain people off.
I do
Excellent show, Douglas. I am currently reading Professor Gilley's "The Case for Colonialism" after watching his interview with Peter Boghossian; fascinating stuff. Thank you for creating this new series - I look forward to more content.
When I was in highschool we were taught that there were pros and cons to colonialism. Indigenous people suffered to some extent but also benefitted from being colonized. We accepted this as common sense. Any teacher who says this today would practically be signing his own resignation letter because he'd be fired for suggesting such a thing.
Depends on where you were ,the new world was strange scenario where majority died from diseases due to lack of immunity rather just being killed or butchered.
which helps explain why we have the problems we have as a society and why today's school leavers are in some ways deeply intolerant of any opposing views.
An issue with this is that colonialism also had murder and a degree of shaming involved. Whether one outweighs the other is the problem.
@John Not Real Name that's not a phenomenon related to colonialism and also exists without colonialism, isn't it?
@@davidw8668 Sure a non-Colonial government can do that and indeed many pre-colonial places had dubious practices to write the least. Human sacrifice for example. Considering another less than human too.
In NZ in pre-European times, Maori were "colonising"" neighbouring tribes and sticking them in the ground oven. Radical Maori academics will say that this was a spiritual cultural practice. Actually, as Neil Oliver wrote in a recent book, eating and then defecating your enemy was the greatest dishonour. The British manifestly did not eat the colonised peoples, rather it was the other way round.
I would like to pay respect like that to Nell Oliver
And yet..."we" in the West haven't been taught that. Wonder why....
( Reminds me of the time when speaking with a Mexican-born/raised-turned-American-Citizen who was talking down about the history of American slavery and its evil, so I turned it back in the spirit of fairness and mentioned the Aztec brutality, human sacrifice included. He suddenly went speechless, his gears churning out some congnitively dissonant comeback, then muttered it had its purpose. LOL. Yeah, OK. It's not so Either/Or now, is it? World History is far more complicated than the Leftists would have us believe in their veiled racism. )
Why invent the wheel when you can wait for one to be delivered...
@@jamesclark6487 - LoL. Nice.
To be fair, a least the Maori didn't intentionally starve 3 million natives of India to death, like Winston "the Aryan man will prevail" Churchill did.
Excellent. Thank you both. I cannot believe this man escaped Portland alive, but I am glad he did. Brave man.
This scholar is a bright light in my Alma Mater PSU, a cut above the Marxists.
What's compelling about Gilley is he is so intellectually centered regarding his interest in truth of history and the principles of his field. The whole 'culture war' and the wokism that is lined up against him seems to just run off his back like water. There's no axe to grind or reactive stance that would undoubtedly consume others. He displays an admirable degree of personal integrity.
What does ‘intellectually centred’ mean?
@@lectorintellegat I would take it to mean non biased/ objective fact and evidence based/ emotionally, ideologically and politically neutral
@@davidlloyd-jones8519 Spot on.
@@davidlloyd-jones8519 thanks. And am I missing something about how being in the ‘centre’, intellectual, pertains to objectivity?
Strikes me as a clumsy and imprecise Americanism, that could mean anything to anyone.
@@lectorintellegat Agreed it was clumsy and imprecise - and my response was equally clumsy and imprecise - . and whislt i am not an authority as to what was originally meant - i do think my stab at it was pretty reasonable - in fact i would - could say that my respnse was 'intellectually centered.
PS - not that the word used was centered - not center.
And no, centered does not equal objective - but it does likely mean - or lean toward non biased.
PPS - the comment by KB seems to have hit a chord too - so if you would prefer the word consensual as opposed to objective - that sounds reasonable too - no problem
Bruce Gilley, we need you. Thanks for writing books for the rest of us.
On a visit to Kenya in 1991 as my friend and I sat around a table with 8-10 local natives, a gentleman, who looked remarkably like Sammy Davis Jr, explained to me that Kenya was better under British rule, because the British weren't racist, they treated every tribe and every white employee in the same way. He said we were respectful when we addressed them, and that British nurses were kind to the native children, not like the native nurses of that day.
Employment was merit based and recommendations, not on tribal connections as in that day.
Brought up in the 60s &70s I have always been grateful for that trip and what I saw and heard.
They treated me most respectfully while I was there, I was just 32.
Howcome it is NEVER noted that America was a colony? Achieve independence but take some good lessons from the colonizers with your own resource and business management techniques.
Exactly the reaction and response I received from people in India a few years ago.
Utube gets many criticisms but where else could such a discussion occur…be so easily available….certainly not on television
Who watches television now ?
How refreshing to be able to listen to intelligent, clear-thinking, open-minded people discussing matters in this way, giving themselves time to discover a more nuanced view instead of clambering aboard some guilt-trip bandwagon or other.
seriously - 5 min it was already full of bs and i stopped listening
What a breath of fresh air it is to listen to a balanced conversation. It's a shame it won't reach the eyes and ears of the people who need to listen to this. Sadly, their eyes and ears are closed to this information.
Or the people whose ancestors were murdered by the Colonialists and heard about the murders via their own family's stories?
Sadly, you are a Moscow troll.
I'm from New Zealand and I can unequivocally say that British colonialism was the best thing that happened here.
Never ending treaty settlements! When will that end?
Of course: without British colonialism there would be no All Blacks (Peace Be Upon Them) :)
You are British, no native. Of course, you will think in that way.
BTW, always go to the dentist
I’m looking forward to watching Murray interview a Marxist a academic. I’m aware it’ll be a long wait.
Yes indeed. Whyte a**holes oppressing the natives, that's all that your lot wants ryt?
In Canada we are currently experiencing a hysterical wave of anti-colonialism, to the point where any challenge to the existing, dogmatic narrative is met with social, cultural and even legal prosecution.
We're deemed as racist for not completely condemning our own people
my university, like the others in Canada, are obsessed with "decolonizing" and "indigenizing" everything, which one can only assume means removing "colonial" things like rights, democracy, science, logic, philosophy, equality, peace, private property, etc.
@@jacobmatthews7524 The universities have been subverted by Marxists in Canada!
@@Strange9952Your people are not condemned, its the actions of your ancestors that are condemned.
If you were condemned then there would be groups of First Nation people terrorising and blowing up airplanes for their freedom.
@@jacobmatthews7524LOL You think the West or Europe has a patent on "democracy", "rights", law, science, logic ??
Everything you claim to be "Western" was Stolen from the Greeks/Romans by your ancestors who were themselves "civilised" by the Romans. Science, logic, philosophy were all again borrowed from the East by Europeans. Including mathematics, engineering, even the written language itself.
Egyptians were building pyramids when your ancestors lived naked in caves! The Chinese had pottery and agriculture when you people couldn't even cook meat!
The Indians invented steel while your ancestors didn't even know how to Smith iron.
The Aztecs, the Babylonians, the Indus Valley, etc all were building Hydro projects like Dams and Canals while Europe was populated by tribes of hunter gatherers living in mud huts and caves.
Democracy existed in thousands of cultures - in China, India, Mesopotamia, Phonecia, the Iroquois of North America etc. Stop this delusion that it is some Western invention.
ABSOLUTELY SUPERB INTERVIEW!! Thank you Douglas for inviting this guest that brought the truth about colonialism. Everyone , please share!!!
Giving this a pre-emptive thumbs up based on the excellent quality of the discussion on General Lee.
I'm DEEPLY appreciative of Douglas (who's long been one of my favorite contemporary social commentators in any case) and all those involved for making intellectual discourse available on these subjects. Thanks a million!!
Happy to hear it, Dave! Thanks for watching
@@douglasmurray This man is simply bias is own way, you're no better than the progressively minded on that front in promoting him over others. Historians needn't be political but this guy clearly is. He's arrogant, he's still telling people what they're 'allowed' to think.
He will empower white supremacists even if he technically isn't one.
Funny how he neglected to mention any of the massacres conducted upon black/brown people.
WOW. Douglas, this is a fantastic interview (and series). Your discussion with Bruce goes beyond the superficial and provides a much needed overview from someone who truly understands his subject and isn't afraid to provide facts that contradict the "narrative." It's exactly the type of interview that's been missing from RUclips. Many thanks for all of the care and hard work you've put into this series. I look forward to watching (and recommending) all of these discussions.
Give it a rest. Name me one profound fact which was discussed. Just one. "goes beyond the superficial" When did that happen?
@@AminTheMystic 28:22 and onward is pretty interesting to my ear. Goes beyond the surface level talk of how governance, economies and other things should just be returned to indigenous peoples...and that's it. Hearing that Marxism was the "return to" system that anti-colonialists were pushing for in some cases was also interesting to learn. Really it's a good long-form discussion that gives a counter to some idealized storylines in history (like Ghandi not being as much of a factor for independence as we might like to think). Maybe these are all things you already knew, so congrats if you've done as deep of a dive as the host and guest. But why be bothered some of us found this vid to be quite good?
@@justinp.3256 "But why be bothered some of us found this vid to be quite good?" because if you are THIS pig ignorant over the subject, then who do you think you are defining what is "profound"? And calling Gandhi a 'silly man' is superficial, textbook meaning of the word. On top of that, Gilley clearly says one thing, and Murray another. Even Murray doesn't know what he is saying. But as long as it's vaguely anti-woke and pro your own biases, then it must be automatically good.
Gilley is lying through his teeth when he sums up that there were no indigenous anti-colonial movements. It's counter to basic history. But then there are ignoramuses who'd lap up and revel in their ignorance... and label nonsense like this as deeply profound.
I'd love to see a proper debate between this chap and those on the other side of it.
@@jumblestiltskin1365 yes. but he won't. this academic sits on twitter carping.
Mr Murray , I start the day looking for your interviews,speeches etc! I was born in a British colony,and deeply regret that they left. I do believe that the British Empire was a force for good,just like the Roman Empire. Thank you .
The Roman Empire?! They are the ones who destroyed the Second Temple and exiled most of the Jews from Israel. They also conquered Britain. Had the Roman Empire lasted, there would have been no British Empire
"What have the Romans ever done for us?"
Fantastic interview and comments from viewers. For people who do not wish to live in ignorance by the censorship of facts and canceling the informed points of view of others, this video and series are of tremendous value and a godsend. Thank you.
At 87, I am glad to have lived long enough to praise Douglas Murray.
@@annechayahurwitz8982 I am glad you have as well. Blessings and strength to you, Anna. May you live in good health for many more years to come.
Brilliant. Simply brilliant. Thank you both for bravely wading into such controversial, but necessary topics of conversation.
Great podcast. It is such a breath of fresh air to talk about subjects in an open intellectual manner. Thank you!
Excellent interview. I've watched Bruce Gilley on his own channel, but his insight and understanding was brought to a higher pitch in this interview, thanks to Douglas Murrays intelligent listening and questioning. The conclusion that the "Anti's" are driven by resentment to spread their intellectual fog is spot on.
A lot of these left-wing independence movements were led by middle to upper class individuals who benefited from the education that colonial powers provided them. Unsurprisingly, individuals in the same social classes in the West are propagating and defending the way that these movements conducted themselves.
Gosh, this is a bit grown up for the 2020s! Measured and informed - very old fashioned. Thank you.
I did not know that Mr. Murray had his own site, I am so happy It did show in my feed, I subscribed of course
yes.... I never thought to find him this way.... and now I have him.... or he has my attention by subscription as well
She didn't presumably make her objection known through the form of interpretive dance, did she?" 🤣 Murray is gold.
I agree. His level of sarcasm is legendary, especially in the recent Munk Debate. He's actually a very good interviewer; I didn't realise how good.
@@tchai91 I need to watch that Munk debate. Haven't seen it yet. Thanks for the recommendation.
If you’re a fan of Malcolm Gladwell’s books, which I am, the debate unfortunately shines a not very positive light on him.
@Captain Teabag I haven't read him, but look forward to watching the debate. Cheers.
@@quintbromley2112 - An audio-only version of the debate is available here on U tube. Not yet found a full video version. Gladwell is clearly unprepared and behaves disgracefully, quickly turning to throwing ‘-isms’ and ‘-ists’.
The world still has a chance so long as this kind of interview can be had and aired. Enjoyed the interview immensely (bought his book).
As someone who has lived in Africa for decades and visited most of its countries at one time or another, I found this video fascinating. I agreed with Professor Gilley right up until the point where he brushed off Chinese economic Imperialism. His position was that the Chinese do not seek to assert their own systems of government upon African nations, which is true, but he completely ignores the influence that China has gained in global organisations such as the UN and WHO with the aid of votes from its client nations.
For example, China has almost completely shut down any debate about the origins of Covid-19 having previously installed a representative from a client state as head of WHO.
Similarly, one cannot dismiss the fact that China enjoys a virtual monopoly on the raw materials needed for global electrification, as demanded by elements, of the UN, which also mostly emanate from Africa.
Perhaps Bruce should take another look at Chinese Imperialism.
Absolutely.
China official politic about Islam is mental illness. They are using same kind of metods like Mao. Camps were cleaning whole mind and Brainwashing new order of Xi. China is also much bigger and evil that truth. Helping Russia, Bad Threath to Taiwan, Role in middle east terrorism are growing. 2month ago two chinise engineer expert of tunnels founded by IDF in Rafah/Gaza. China steal Patents and is involved US campus & Academia chaos. China is military training in Cuuba.
You need to read the definition of colonialism. Because nothing you wrote that China is doing fits that definition.
China's demographic future is a disaster. It lacks the capacity for much "real" colonialism beyond its current exploits.
@@MrGolov-te5ebToo many folks tossing around, terms such as, colonialism, imperialism, and immigration, in ways that are inaccurate, incorrect or incontextual.
How refreshing to see something like this on youtube. Keep it up Douglas Murray, you are a credit to our civilization!
Thank you very much for this brilliant and fascinating discussion around Colonialism. For me, an enlightening and very welcome series - look forward to the next episode.
Thanks Carolyn, we're glad to hear you liked the episode! Please like and subscribe for new episode notifications!
Thank you @@douglasmurray Liked and subscribed!
Very interesting and well-conducted interview, great speakers. However, I missed a discussion of the alleged economic exploitation of colonies by the colonial powers, transfer of raw materials and other forms of wealth, etc. That is a major point of modern criticism of the colonial era and it would have been interesting to hear both speakers on that issue.
@@janbohanes7096 Because they can't defend it. It's very obvious that raw materials were stolen and not compensated for.
@@joshuataylor3550 Well, obviously sweeping statements like these don't enable a nuanced, rigorous discussion
I read his paper "A Case for Colonailism".It was excellent.I would heartily recommend it.
Wonderfully refreshing interview, Bruce Gilley is a gem! Thank you mr. Murray.
Wonderfully racist
Subscribed after episode 1. Sharing with all my friends after episode 2. What a breath of fresh air. Thank you to Douglas Murray and Nebulous Media for putting out this content.
💯…so much is accepted and spouted nowadays as truth without proof or knowledge. Thank goodness there are those who are wiser and present a truer picture.
Very well said guys, truth and common sense is like music to my ears 😂
I really love Douglas Murray, I've read every one of his books several times and I try to read as many articles of his that I can. However, in the recent years, I've become increasingly bored with all the woke stuff. While I agree with him on all of it, I'm so tired of hearing the same things over and over again. I expected this to be in the same vein but it was actually a really insightful video. I learned a lot and I will definitely be reading some of Bruce Gilley's works!
Agreed
I understand what you mean, but if Douglas is offered a couple of grand every time he's invited on podcasts/news channels to be the voice of reason, I don't blame him for accepting.
@@tchai91 agreed, I dont blame him either. obviously want him to make as much money as possible; but hopefully that will eventually allow him enough freedom to go back to writing about other things
Hearing about the woke nonsense is certainly tiring and increasingly depressing. Every week it just seems to get worse. But occasionally, interviews appear that shine a bright light in the darkness - the last such was when Dr Gilley appeared on the Triggernometry podcast. Well worth a look-see!
Check out Gilley's RUclips video "Why they loved Hitler".
Mr Gilley is dressed like your typical university history professor. He also looks like my 1986 high school ancient history teacher, Mr Ryan. He eventually went into politics. He was one of those rare teachers who inspired his students and left a lifelong mark on them. I have Mr Ryan to thank for my lifelong interst in history. Today, I homeschool our 15 year old son and history is my most favourite subject to research for his curriculum and learn about myself. We just completed a 25 page research project on Australia (where we love). Before we pulled him out of the public education system he told me he wasn't learning about white British colonial history. That they were only ever teaching about aboriginal history. We have rectified that and he now knows about his white ancestry past. That is his fathers heritage. Mine is from the Canary Islands and is of Spanish heritage. I have also taught him about the history of the islands and how he has Guanche Aboriginal DNA in him (he has had his DNA done to confirm it) and he knows the Portuguese, Italians and Spanish Conquistadors invaded the Islands but not without a brave 100 year long fight by the Guanches. The last king "Mencey" to die was Mencey Bencomo and he died in a brave battle worthy of a Warrior. Our son likes Vikings so once he found out he is descended from Guanche Warriors he is proud of his ancestry.
The interpretive dance quip was absolutely priceless. Thank F**k for Douglas Murray. I've been bored forever by history due to poor school options that left me having to chose between History & Geography.
I find this series fascinating.
Thanks.
Murray loves dancing. In drag.
@@busterbiloxi3833 Which one, Norwegian or Romanian?
Of course, Murray would have had all the 'options' where he schooled. Why do you think yours were so poor?
@@paramidge8935 My year was the GCSE 'guinea pig' year during the teacher training strikes. The entire system changed that year causing absolute havoc.
We were taught the wrong curriculum for Physics resulting in nobody passing the higher paper due to a mix-up in examination boards. It was the year course work became 40% of the final grade.
The teachers were missing for most of the time. It was a complete mess. From 'Options' to Subjects, everything was turned upside down, often without the teacher's knowledge.
Outstanding discussion. I learnt a great deal from that. Amazing how much one can learn when open discussion & debate is allowed!
Thank you.
Finally an adult discussion
They get very emotional about those that disagree with them...
@@joshuataylor3550 Tjhat was not at all my perception. They could care less if people disagree or not. There emotional about not being able to state there case without being attacked. Thje attacks are always ugly as ther character assasinate rather than listening to a perspective that is not allowed to be stated without backlash. L/Chaim
I've been watching your interviews and common sense speaking out for about 4 years and am always so glad that you (Douglas) are willing to speak out, use your great knowledge of history, courage to stand against the madness and with that wonderful voice you have!
Hello Douglas. Thank you! I've read your books and look forward to receiving Bruce Gilley's book on Colonialism. I am a huge supporter of Britain and the Commonwealth and will be better equipped to defend it.
Wow. I had to read King Leopold’s Ghost for a western civ class last year and I totally bought into the numbers. I was appalled by it. I saw evidence of bias but I couldn’t fathom a figure so serious being misrepresented. Thank you both for presenting the truth.
What "truth"?. "Ghost" may be sensationalist to a point but there's plenty of other material which corroborates much of it. Perhaps the numbers are exaggerated but he points to many depopulated villages, etc etc. Sleeping Sickness was raging at the time too. 10 million is certainly a lot but this was someone else's estimate as I remember, Hochschild just quotes it.
Great talk. 2 great and interesting men.This should be shown in schools the length and breadth of the country.
A spitfire of a man. Would love to read a book from him covering the history of colonialism as a whole
There's so many perspectives and so much history to dig, it depends on the person that does the digging to build their perspective. I have my own perspective and channel and I haven't gotten to colonialism on video yet because I'm starting from the beginning. But I'll get there eventually. I have tons of resources and notes though that form my own story.
“The idea of a blanket condemnation being untenable” - ooof!!! ❤ keep it up my lads
Both of you are beautiful souls...forever thankyou.
Thanks Doug for having the balls to publish this.
Why? It's just a regurgitation of patriarchal narrative, same as has been taught for 100s of years. Nothing new.
Brilliant discussion and insight . Academic excellence on full display.
As a Portuguese I thank you; I am fed up of being tagged promoter of slavery
Yes, you were a promoter of slavery. You were the first to come to West Africa and the last to leave. You did not leave voluntarily; you were pushed out. Yes, you ought to feel bad.
I am so glad you are doing this. As a HS teacher and someone who got a history degree almost no pro of colonialism were/ are ever mentioned. Once I got an econ MA and really thought about opportunity cost it really became clear that History is complicated. Costs and benefits. Half way through, well done.
High school teacher here in a very conservative Catholic school. Our textbooks repeat these lies, too. The Belgian Congo is the perfect example. We must not let sensationalism and ignorance supplant real learning!
What are the lies about the Belgian Congo?
@@semilio1 I'd like to follow up on this point. The atrocities committed by the Belgians in the Congo are some of the worst ever recorded. Thumbs cut off, people burnt alive, children raped and killed, if the quota of work wasnt met. This is all publicly available information, you can see pictures and documented evidence of this. What on earth do you mean this is lies? It's scary and honestly sad, that we even have to debate what happened to the Congolese people during Belgian rule
@@dheerajthapliyal9533 I wanted to get an answer from Mattison Hale since he is a high school teacher in a conservative school.
Belgian Congo occurred
@@dheerajthapliyal9533thats the congo free state. These cruelties also happened in the rubber colonies of france portugal and germany in africa. Why dont you talk about those
I spent 20 years in Africa witnessing the collapse of former colonies. It was so sad to see.
Yeah, you probably bemoaned the end of apartheid.
@@georgeokoro1149 well, since you mentioned it, what had replaced the old apartheid government has turned out to be far worse for black South Africans than apartheid ever was: Endemic corruption, a collapsing economy and education and zero job creation.
My experience was further north with the various black tyrants there: Nyerere, Amin, Bokassa, Banda, Kaunda, Mugabe, Machele etc. All genocidal maniacs who the left gave a free pass to.
@@georgeokoro1149that was an economic boom for cultural marxists
What a wonderful discussion. The intelligence and erudition of Murray and Gilley gives so much pleasure. The inability of the woke generation to ignore, misunderstand or re-write history is frankly appalling. Subscribed!
Wonderful discussion? Really? How would you like it if Africans and Asians were to come over and colonise Europe? Impose it's language, religion, culture and values on you and your kind? Oh wait, I almost forgot, it's already happening. Thank God
Its soooooo nice.., putting it on repeat and playing it all night
@@evaristus4821you obviously didn’t listen to the conversation
Oh yes, yes, yes. It almost feels liberating.
Superb! I shall be buying his book on Sir Alan Burns.
Enjoyed this discussion between 2 good men,with respect for each other.I have learned a considerable amount of of history of empires. Would love to have more of these 2. Thanks indeed.
Glad you enjoyed it!
@@douglasmurray They left out anything negative. Very bias view of history. Cherry picking for the mob.
Fascinating. This view of colonialism needs to be widely taught. I learned a lot. Thank you Bruce Gilley and Douglas Murray. This was well worth my time and attention.
Thanks for starting this series I'm really enjoying the concept as it delves into topics/people that I had only known in a shallow way. I like the framing of 'rounder' explanation, as its non-accusatory/inflammatory and shows the necessity of understanding a whole and its context. Although I did not have any concrete opinions about colonialism in the past I was caused to muse to myself that it must surely be hard to condemn something, while also maintaining that you cannot talk about it. It seems any condemnation without context is sure to loose any meaning or cultural impact over time. Subscribed.
Douglas, your voice is needed in the regular podcast sphere. Please keep this up
I used to think learning about colonial history was so boring in high school but now that it's "forbidden fruit," I can't get enough of it. Thank you. I've watched this twice.
Absolutely fascinating - thanks both. My uni is going through decolonisation and as a biologist, I'm not equipped to properly resist, even though I can identify obvious flaws e.g. that many of the ideas behind decolonisation are at least contested - we require erudite debate. Of that, there has been little.
Same situation at my university. Except I’m doing an MA in History and it’s just a constant barrage of anti-colonial/anti-Western bias. The recommended reading lists consist almost entirely of Marxists, Anti-colonialists, and postmodernists. In order to get a more balanced perspective of colonial history you have to read way outside of the recommended reading lists. If anyone is interested in the history of the British Empire I would recommend the work of: Tirthankar Roy, Zareer Masani, Jeremy Black, Niall Ferguson, and even Kartar Lalvani’s book ‘The Making of India: The Untold Story of British Enterprise’ is worth checking out. 👍🏻
@Mal Preece - sounds awful. The best way to fight this is student feedback. Please complain, even if anonymously. I'm refusing to decolonise my teaching material, based on the premise that it's racist to do so. I teach, based on the quality of the material, not the ethnicity of the individuals who produced it.
Read Thomas Sowell, Douglas Murray, James Lyndsay and Helen Pluckrose they will give you the tools to resist.
Compared to what? Is the ultimate question.
Are universities aware of how their reputation has plummeted among the general public in recent years? A genuine question as what's happening in colleges seems utterly surreal in its stupidity and bigotry to outsiders looking in. Must be grim to work there.
@John Neville - it's a mixed picture where I work. Senior management are of the view that society want decolonisation etc. They also don't seem to see that academics are afraid to speak out on a host of issues for fear of retribution - loss of collaborations and maybe even being forced out of post. Older academics, and some younger ones, smell the bullshit. But for the moment, there's collective madness in the air that's difficult to counter.
Wow. Fantastic discussion. Prof. Gilley's book is on the way, too. Can't wait to read it, and probably his newer one mentioned about German Colonialism.
Brilliant Brilliant Brilliant! 👏🏽 Finally, someone has the moral courage to speak the inconvenient truth! Imperialism (particularly British Imperialism) was, on balance, a force for good globally. This was especially true for marginalised groups such as women and the lower economic classes. Even Marx acknowledged the benefits of colonialism! You only have to look at what happened to former colonies when the British left to realise which is the superior hegemony. Hence the post-colonial exodus to Britain from former colonies. This discussion needs to become part of the mainstream narrative...thank you Douglas and Bruce ❤
Wow, Douglas, you dive right in with Things You're Not Allowed to Discuss! LOL Great discussion.
Gilley is clearly well studied and a wealth of historical knowledge. I loved the cold objectivity of his insights. Just the facts…
An interpretive dance professor took offence to a scholarly paper on colonialism.
Imagine my shock!😂😂😂
Much like an ice cream company demanding the US return to native rule. We live in a very strange new world.
"Interpretive dance professor," is a dead give away. Seriously giving this type the time of day, clues us into why the West is floundering.
@@LUIS-ox1bv 1000%!
A wonderful interview, thank you both very much. I actually am that hated figure, a colonialist! Born, brought up and educated in Kenya I had the most wonderful childhood, not mainly among my own white tribe, but amongst the indigenous peoples. The Mau Mau was a cruel and unnecessary horror as the country was galloping fast towards a freedom for all. And Kenya today is a good place to live, safer than the U.K.
As a scholar of African history, I am impressed with Dr. Gilley, and your own story. I've always belived Kenya had Africans who opposed the Mau Mau.
OK, but what is your opinion about Black African immigration into the UK (or the West in general)?
Mambo Louise - I have emigrated from UK to maumau homeland Nyeri and would totally agree that Kenya is a far safer and less F'kd up place - the people here are GREAT.
Nothing like what you would imagine from the woke westerners.
In fact i have discovered that whilst the origins of maumau had their genuine grievances - soldiers not being given land post burma war..
It was the marxists (during the end of cold war) who poured petrol onto the fire - and so the whole thing became more of a conflict between western ideology and marxist ideology.
The marxists wanted to be the cultural colonizers - and sadly the kenyans got caught up in the middle
Bora kabissa
@@najbritcol Immigration into UK - Well in my personal opinion/ philosophy - when you see 10,000 people moving in one direction, then you do not follow like a sheep, you should realise that the opportunities have peaked - and it is now time to look elswhere and possibly go in the opposite direction.
Africa is now the future and the place to be.
I myself have emigrated from UK to Kenya - the opportunities are staggering
Jambo, rafiki! I also grew up in Kenya, where my grandparents went after WW1, & lived through the Mau Mau. I equate the Russian atrocities of today with those of the M.M. then. The intention of the Colonial administration of the 3 territories of Kenya, Uganda & Tanganyika was to make them fit to govern themselves at the earliest possible opportunity but thanks to MacMillan independence was rushed through at least 10 years too soon, leading to the problems in governance seen thereafter.
Thanks for having these conversations Douglas. Alternative viewpoints and interpretations of these controversial topics are necessary and almost impossible to have in real life here in the Caribbean. You’d never hear this discussed at the University of the West Indies
I’ll also add this: our French neighbors (Martinique, Guadeloupe and French Guiana) see what has happened to their Anglo neighbors (Trinidad, Jamaica) and see their future if the metropolitan government left. They’d be dysfunctional best case like us, or a disastrous catastrophe like Haiti at worst. They sensibly avoid independence like the plague.
This was funny! I love a good parody of history. 😅😅😅😅😅😅😅. This might be one of SNL's best!
This video is awesome, thank you Douglas Murray. Prof. Gilley is brilliant.
Under tribal law the headman had the power of life and death. A husband could accuse his wife of unfaithfulness and given the corruption the wife would be mutilated or killed. This stopped with the introduction under the British of two tier law, civil law and criminal law.
What are you talking about? Africans had no standing in British Courts. Their prior land claims were ignored and the British Court handed out bits of paper that then let British Soldiers violently evict Africans from their own land.
This was absolutely fascinating, Thank you Douglas and Thank you Prof Gilley
Murray is a refreshing inspiration. Thank you.
Very interresting that writing an article brings on an angry mob. Some topics are not safe. Who will dare to write about them? Bruce Gilley. I need to read his work.
Brilliant , thotough, Deep . No wonder It raises criticism: It shows the academic hipocrisy and ideology too well
Wonderful discussion, thank you! I could have listened to this for so much longer than an hour.
Full of crap lol
I may be the worst history student who ever lived. Certainly, my high school history teachers thought so. However, I've had this vague idea that the world has always been colonial, or tribal or something akin to that. Everywhere, all the time, until recently. And I've also wondered what things would have been like if not for the British Empire, etc. Thank you so much for this!
@Lynne J you’re more or less correct. Damn near every culture prior to the last couple centuries was firmly of the opinion that people that weren’t them weren’t really people.
@@Muljinn I also suspect that there is nowhere on earth were there isn't a dominant culture. Some cultures are more welcoming than others, and some places are more multicultural, but I think if you don't belong to the dominant culture, to some degree, you will feel like an outsider. I don't think it can be avoided.
Most of the world would still be eating dung for dinner.
Do you have a license for this common sense, Madam?
@@DieFlabbergast do you mean "licence" or are you American?
Great podcast Douglas. Your guest speaks with such authority on the subject. These debates by intellectual historians will be influence the future.
Brilliant. Thank you Douglas Murray and Nebulous Media.
Much obliged. Well worth watching.
Literacy rates in India prior to the East India company arriving in 1700s were 16%. By 1948 they'd dropped to 5%. India in the 1700s had a stronger economy than most European countries. What exactly was it that needed civilising?
Great conversation, very informative. Well done
I think our modern form of historical censorship is doing a lot of damage to our current political and social makeup. Since people nowadays don't seek to understand both the positives and negatives of different ideologies & the real world effects they've had it hurts our path forward. I think this channel is a lovely step in the right direction & I can't wait to see some more enlightening conversations.
Critically reasessing the multiple negative impacts of European colonialism on colonised peoples is not censorship! Wilfully destroying official records of torture as the British did as Kenya was about to gain independence, that's censorship. Banning books, films or curriculae focusing on groups previously under-represented in high school history lessons is censorship.
@davidmundowyahoo7839 What Im talking about when I say censorship is the unwillingness to teach anyone anything that can be seen as controversial. By doing that people losse the nuance of history and start generally thinking about complicated events.
@@1008chaz feel free to point out the positives of British colonialism in Ireland
@@davidmundowyahoo7839 they established a formal education system and built trinity collage dublin.
Gilley is one really smart guy and here he shows that he's done the homework that not one woke latte-sipping "progressive" ever even considered doing on this issue. Kudos to him for sharing his knowledge and especially for his courage to stand up to the anything-but-inclusive inclusive crowd. Kudos also to Murray for conducting such a great interview, to say nothing of writing his wonderful books and articles. I'm now hooked on his Uncancelled History series. Many thanks Mr. Murray.
"woke latte-sipping"...?
@@adamlowe7618 Indeed. Scientific studies show that ALL progressives sip lattes. ha ha
@@adamlowe7618 yes
when you invoke stupid backwards toxic usa american sayings thats now poisioning the world i know yur biased to the right wing and look for evidence to support your poor views without critiquing it
So pleased that I stumbled across your channel, Douglas, I shall be a regular listener.. thank you. Stevie, York.
Fantastic episode. Keep it up guys and always a pleasure to listen to Douglas.
Great discussion. Feel quite proud of the old empire now. Not an exercise in perfection obviously, but an important step in the advancement of many ares of our world.
Thank you for this new podcast!!!! We will learn so much!
Throughout history colonialism has taken many different forms. If we would aspire to any standard of objectivity and of a balanced historical perspective, it is important that we distinguish between them. There were colonial enterprises which were popularly motivated and democratically organized while others were patently imperialist, brutally racist, and ruthlessly exploitative.
Spot on. I remember reading (in a biography of Lord Salisbury I think), that in at the start of the 20th century the long term plan of the India Office was for India to become a self governing Dominion along the lines of Australia and Canada in the 1980s.
Not quite sure about the idea that the early empires got the best and easiest "bits". Gilley mentioned the Portuguese in the context of being late to the table. Is he referring to the same Portuguese that pioneered the coastal exploration of Africa and penetration into Asia via the Indian Ocean in the 16th century? The same Portugal that kick started the British Raj when they gave Bombay to Charles II as part of his wedding dowry in the 17th century? Yeah, not sure they were "late to the table".
A wonderful, open and frank discussion. Many thanks for posting. I now have several more books I need to add to my library.
And this guy teaches at Portland? I'm amazed. That's quite heartening
He must be very lonely.
@@BillKing8888 I will check on him as I only live four miles away from PSU.
The same is happening in Mozambique and South Africa where people are openly saying that they are worst off under African rulers. It breaks my heart to see the corrupt governments
exquisite filming. Amazing set. Nice work Mr Murray. very interesting interview
When someone argues against British Colonialism, I would quote the Monty Python skit from "Life of Brian"; "What have the Romans ever done for us?".