The SCIENCE Behind Recoil & Grip (Mantis Dry Fire Monday) | Active Self Protection Extra
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- Опубликовано: 16 дек 2018
- Please thank MantisX for bringing us today’s video of the science behind recoil & grip! Check them out at get-asp.com/mantisx or their FB page at / mantisfts I seriously DO use the system in my own dry fire training and with students on the range and you can get one at amzn.to/2gZjMuR. Want to see me use it? • Zeroing my RMR and Win...
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Attitude. Skills. Plan.
(music in the outro courtesy of Bensound at www.bensound.com)
a solid physics explanation, plus anatomy, plus a lefty grip demo. Hallelujah.
"I smoosh all of the meat that I possibly can down into that gun"... I love these technical talks and with these technical terms!
I am all about the technical lingo. ;)
@@ASPextra And the "bits." Don't forget those all important "bits!"
Learning has occurred!
Nerds uniting around guns....I would have never predicted this. HA the engineer in me really appreciated this, I knew my palms were doing most of the work but had not considered the longer radius of the pinky finger applying a lot of torque. Guess that explains why the gun jumps a ton when shooting without a mag extension on a shorter grip gun. Thanks John - you have me thinking...need to get to the range and test out a few ideas.
One of the best videos I have watched regarding gripping a pistol appreciate the lesson
Best explanation of grip dynamics I've ever seen. The pinky explanation was an eye opening. True geekdom and with a degree in mechanical engineering I am able to follow everything you showed. Great job...
Great video! I didn't know that the smallest finger makes the biggest difference!
Thanks John. I've had a lot of helpful pieces of "advice" about gripping a pistol in my life, but for me-- this was priceless! I wish I would've had this 20 minute instruction 30 years ago!
Glad to help!
Without question some of the best tutorials available for shooters. Thank you John
Thank you for going over this John. For the longest time I've been hearing about locking wrists and had no real idea if I was doing it right. Only in the past week did I discover using your ring and pinky is a big part of it, and then bam, I see this. Never got the impression my wrists were "locked" until I started engaging those fingers more. I liked how you explained the importance of the pinky as well, NO other grip video I've seen has broke it down as well as you did here.
This has been one of the most informative videos from ASP, never knew the why of the way I was taught to hold a pistol, actually learned something useful in my handgun usage.
Nice!
Hey John, congrats on still kicking butt on your health progress through the holidays!! You look great! 👍
Lol look again.
Your thumbnails are looking like Bond villains. Love it
Excellent explanation of grip, the best I have seen by far! You are the man!
This is the best explanation of grip I've ever seen, thanks John 👍
Thanks!
damn you talking all this logic stuff really motivates me to push myself when i go to college
John, best discussion about the dynamics of firearm torque characteristics and role of the proper grips to control muzzle movement.
Incredibly helpful video. Thanks for taking the time to explain the science element. That makes more sense to me than anything else I've been told on gripping properly. 👍🏻
John, you are so unique in your approach to your channel. Great teaching that is something a shooter can take with him to become a better shooter. Keep it up and thank you.
You called the FLEXOR muscles, "extensors". It is the other way around.
Secondarily, it is neurologically impossible to intentionally activate only one-layer of flexor at a time in.maximum contraction. Hence, grip size, shape and angle need to be designed to emphasize the effective force direction (though this is a relatively small effect).
However, one could make an argument for variable sizes and shapes to enhance index finger vs middle & ring finger vs pinkie. Likely, these variations would make surface less-uniform and adversely affect smooth-draw mechanics.
Yes, I have 2-doctorates and qualified in more than one specialty. You descriptions and biomechanics-to-physics were otherwise very solid.
Yeah I realized I screwed up the terminology. MY BAD! :)
Correct on the correction... lol I thought going into the anatomical names of specific tissues was only going to create deer in the headlights effects on most viewers anyway... But I love the depth and passion John puts into his work!
Can you make me a prosthetic arm? I mean if I needed one?
Dear John, I’m a plastic and hand surgeon from Germany and a great fan of your videos!
You’ve just explained the anatomy and physiology of the hand tendons perfectly right, and I‘ve learnt a lot from your explanation for the use of a hand gun.
Keep on with your GREAT TEACHING!!
You’re just a genius!!! ❤️
Wow, thanks! Glad it was explained well! :)
This is the absolute best video I have ever seen on control and hand position!! Very good. Thank you for this , John.
Holy shit, I haven't seen an ASP video in a while, and I was honestly shocked to see John in such an amazing condition! Excellent job, John, keep it up!
I ordered a Mantis X10. While I'm waiting for it to arrive I've been watching dry fire videos. I watched this video after trying to do the "dime drill" about 20 times and only succeeding once. After 2 days of applying these ideas, particularly concentrating on applying rearward pinkie pressure, I'm able to balance a dime on my front sight and from a compressed ready, present , press the trigger and return to a compressed ready without dropping the dime about half the time now. With more practice I will get even better. Can't wait until my X10 arrives.
Great stuff. Will be sending to some newer shooters. I learned a few things as well.
I’ve got to admit though, I’m always a little disappointed when John doesn’t tell us how to cover our ASP at the end.
Best I've heard. Worth reviewing and re-listening many times. Thanks.
John, I know some people don't like to hear all the "science" involved
but, I gotta say I enjoyed watching and learning more about my grip.
Thanks for sharing!
Be safe!
Randy
Well, I just learned a ton! Thank you for this video.
Outstanding. John Ruiz and Jeff Gonzales both talk about pinky power.
Holy smokes, havent checked the channel in a while, looking good! I remember you saying a while back you were pushing yourself to be more healthy overall and it looks like youre sticking through.
Good stuff!
Great explanation! I’ve been shooting since I was 6, now over half a century and I still took something away.
Love your channel. Have a great Christmas.
You too!
These grip lessons changed my shooting big time.
Great!!
John, best and most logical explanation about grip mechanics. It makes sense to utilize the “pinkie” finger as it is working on the longest torque lever, therefore has a mechanical advantage.
Thanks!
Absolutley fabulous explanation! Thank you John
The why is always helpful with application. Thank you!
Glad to help!
♿♿I learned more in this one video than I could have imagined! WOW, I've been told how to grip before but your explanation put all the pieces together in a way that really makes sense. Please keep doing what you guys do. I'm starting to save up so that I can get a Mantis. Once I reach that goal, I'm going to start saving money for one of John's classes. (Hopefully he doesn't retire before I reach that goal. 😉) Thanks for the great content!!♿♿
Keep at it...you're guaranteed to get there!!
You are really getting skinny! Good job!
*With my experience* when you explain the whole pinky thing, I've noticed there is such thing as gripping too hard, you'll break shots left or right with shot anticipation and gripping with your whole hand. In the end you touched briefly on separating your trigger finger from the rest and I think that's definitely important to highlight a bit more.
Really enjoyed this video, please do more of these!
Hi John. Just picked up a MantisX last week. I love it, great training tool.
OUTSTANDING video John! Great explanation.
Thanks!
most under rated video on your channel. love all the content john. thank you
Which is why a slight forward pinky extension is helpful for short grips
This one and the trigger press video are my favorites from both channels now. I even created a playlist to save them. If you ever remove these from RUclips, I will go in to immediate vapor lock. But then I wouldn't have any need for self-defense. Thanks John for always keeping it juicy!
Great video. Thanks for making.
Great video John!
One of your best and most practical yet. You keep getting better and better.
This is an older video, but thanks!
@@ASPextra lol, should have mentioned that after watching your latest, I went back to your beginnings. One is silver and the other is gold.
Excellent content as always John. These videos help me out tremendously!
Glad to help!
can't wait to try this out during my dry fire tonight! ...and see how things go during my next range trip. Thanks john!
glad to help.
Great video on recoil management. The part about focusing your not only high up but on the low part of the handgun is really going to help.
Great info that does help. Thank you.
Nerd shooter here... Loved this video! I was always a decent shot before (Navy as well), but now that I have to shoot fast for IDPA, controlling recoil is where I need to focus! Thank you for the physics lesson! I'll be asking for a Mantis X10 for Christmas!
Thanks for a great explanation!
Thank you for sharing John, that pinky tip is huge.
Glad to help!
Thanks for the light physics explanation. As a scientist I like how you made it simple and plain. Also one could argue that the torque is a facet of why "lazy shots" dip left due to the introduction of unmanaged torque. Think physics and the "right hand" rule of the direction of the force induced via torque. But that's the geek in me "over thinking". LOL!
Huh, an interesting thought!
I’ve had physics and engineering professors who would’ve butchered this explanation. More science days with John please!
Great video sir. In my opinion, this is the most important lesson to work on with pistols.
I'm catching up on this and some other old videos of yours. I started college in pre-veterinaty
Excellent scientific video. Really wonderful that you could do this. Thank you.
Thank you!
You are doing really good work John. This one tickled my interest a lot, being an engineer. Your biomechanics analysis is very useful and wow, who would have thought, pinkies rule! A minor quibble. The primary force from the discharge is aligned to the bore center, not the recoil spring. That is why high bore axis (relative to hand) guns seem to kick more than low bore axis (hammer fired vs Glock). The induced couple is greater, even if the magnitude of the primary vector is the same. Recoil spring location doesn't matter just hand to bore. Keep up the good work!
I really enjoyed this video - love the geeky stuff !
Awesome, thank you!
Very great lesson.
Very well explained. God Bless John.
You too!
Great presentation. Appreciate the science.
Glad it was helpful!
Outstanding!
It is really interesting that you say: "Of course, we haven't designed that gun yet". I think this is a matter of marketing. The flip side to a "perfect" gun design with no upward recoil would be that all the recoil would go straight back into your shoulder. That might be a very effective gun in a self defense situation where you have to put multiple rounds on a target quickly, but people would complain about it making their shoulder sore after some practice with it.
Well explained....👏👏
This video was so helpful thank you
Glad it was helpful!
Geeking out totally pays off!
Very informative video. With your discussion I drew an vector analysis where your thumb and index finger form a fulcrum. The higher the fulcrum the more leverage the fingers have against the recoil of the gun. Longer grips allow the pinky to have greater leverage the farther away my pinky is from the fulcrum. This fact along with arthritis make full double stack grips more comfortable to hold an allow greater counter recoil leverage for me. Compact and subcompact pistols, for me not too good. Thanks again for the great videos.
Yep, science! Although I think that the actual vector is somewhere below the thumb-index finger joining, it's not far from there.
Awesome information. Thank you very much... i just ordered a strength trainer (newbie) and when my p226 arrives i’ll be adding a Mantis X. Loved the physics explanation.
Thanks!
Very helpful, thank you!
Glad it was helpful!
Yeah, Science!
You are really looking great! Keep up the good work! Thank you for this video...it explained so much about recoil...can you do one with revolvers? I have a Ruger LCRx revolver. 38 Special snub nose! First time I fired it I could only shoot 10 rounds...my thumb was killing me! But then I learned to make sure the grip was in the fleshy part between my index finger and my thumb...I was able to 30 rounds the 2nd time...no pain! Now, I am going to concentrate on my support hand pinky placement!TY
This video is 🔥🔥🔥
Thanks!
I finally got around to watching this video. Great training. I've always thought my problems came from my trigger finger. I think my grip could use some work. You tip on the support hand pinky placement was a good one too. I'm going to have to try this at home for a bit then verify at the range. After the COVID lockdown my last trip to the range was less than inspiring.
Glad you found it informative! Let us know how it goes when you try it at the range.
Physiology & Physics Overload!!! haha Really excellent training John!!! Thanks!
Haha!
LOVED THAT LESSON 🥰🥰🥰👍
Glad you liked it!
Greatly explained! Love your videos. "Judy chop" must have learned that from Mike Seeklander 😉
Indeed!
Very interesting content, John!
I was following along with my (unloaded) Glock 19 and your recoil control explanations made perfect sense.
Edit: I'm subscribed to the extra channel now.
Welcome!
John, There is a oversight mistake in this video. Your description of the extensor digitorium's functional mechanics is actually the flexor digitorum in the forearm. There is something interesting your readers might gain from -for loosening the grip of an assailant. I am a retired Occupational Therapist. We learned that the mechanics of the flexion/extensors can be called upon to loosen the grip of someone's hand off of an object or while in a fist. We would use this when working with the affected contractured hand of a stroke patient, while doing gentle passive exercises to temporarily loosen the tone in the affected hand. You position their wrist into flexion and it weakens the flexors as the extensors are passively incorporated into action to straighten the fingers. To test this- give someone an object to hold tight. Then gently and slowly bend their wrist - of that arm - forward. They typically will have a much harder time holding the object. (Here is more info about the actions and mechanics of our structural body mechanics). The extensors of the arm are on the top side when palms are down. A muscle basically shrinks itself and relaxes to cause an effect . The muscle typical gets a stimulus from the brain and contracts or shrinks itself momentarily, or sustains the contraction. When a muscle affects things connected to it-the effect is a pull due to that contraction or shrinking. The contraction is momentarily or sustained, then a relaxing. Think of the placement of a string & it's pull. Where would a string need to be placed on the forearm to produce the movement described. Generally through out our body's whole muscle system, the extensors pull to straighten what ever the flexors have bent or curled. In the forearm the extensors uncurl the fingers out of flexion and straighten them, the flexors curl the fingers into flexion that grips items well because of the 3 joints in each digit. The extensors (as in our backs) are on the back side of the spinal bones to stand us up straight, the flexors of the spine help us move portions forward to sit, stand stabilize. Flexors and extensors working together stabilize us. In the forearm the extensors are on the back, top, and/or dorsal side (also called posterior side) of our forearm - (top side when palms and soles of feet are down = dorsal side) of the arm. The forearms flexors are on the under, inside, of our forearm (called ventral side that rests on a table top when we sit). The flexors curl up segments of fingers, legs, torso to the extend of their connection points to tendons, bones, and muscle. My Professor in Occupational Therapy at KU used to tell us the genius design of the human forearm is that our whole arm doesn't curl up when we flex out index finger joints. to signal a child to "come here". Don't be embarrassed John, the anatomical position terminology has a lot of discrepancies & seeming contradictions in it, such as ventral and dorsal when it comes to certain areas of the body.
great discussion and your schematics highlight why glocks are lighter than other striker pistols yet most experience less muzzle flip. that is high grip yet ability to generate plenty of counter torque with the frontstrap. from perspecive of physics the higher grip angle makes a lot of sense despite it's lack of popularity. a more upright grip angle will by definition experience more flip all else being equal.
Great Explanation of the use of the hands! THANKS for the demonstration of the Mantis System. Finally clarifies the advantages of dry firing w computer analytics you can see displayed on your own Smart Phone. This is one of the few phone-applications that seems to have real value to me. Sorry, I'm coming from four decades of working with Multiple 30-inch monitors for the animation work I've done, Where I really Need to check individual pixels for some processes. Not really interested in watching vids on a 4.5" screen. Guess I'm a little spoiled.
Great explanation
Glad it was helpful!
Great advice. Focusing on the pinkies definitely upped my scores. I went back and forth between low 90s and high 90s each time I lost focus and refocused on pinkies. I feel like there's something else happening in addition to just pinky grip when that refocusing is done because it's hard to believe THAT much control rests in that 1 little thing.
But, if 30+% grip strength is affected by pinkies, I guess so?
It really is an amazing difference.
great video!!! dont forget to get out and practice.. but its really hard to do now...
Dry fire is life!
I'm going to get the MantisX when I can.
Great stuff! No Bob Vogel style rotational torque/clamping forces in your grip?
I had no idea about the pinky. My compact carry gun (VP9SK) has a shortened grip that only has room for 2 fingers with the flush floor plate mags. I had got used to my pinky hanging off or curling under the mag. But I've gotta try with the extended floorplates...
Watched video. Ordered pinky extensions for all the 10 round mags for my P30sk
PROTIP: Go with the 13-rounder instead unless you're in a legislatively limited state. Same concealability, pinky grip is the same, 3 more rounds.
Thanks. Almost changed the channel on SCIENCE .... I trained on the Trident plant in USN. Wondered where you got dem smarts.
Great video for sure. I will say though, I've never seen a pistol with a trigger that went anywhere but to the rear in either a straight or pendulum motion. Grip is most useful for recoil mitigation. You can shoot quite accurately with only a thumb and index finger of one hand on the gun.
Keep the sights lined up on target and press the trigger. That's all there is to making a single accurate shot. I like to simplify things though lol.
That's why guns like the Styer M series and HK P7 M series are extremely fast shooting, low recoiling guns! Much better than that VP doo dad, or Glocks, and especially Sigs...
Well presented, John. You have quite a grasp on this subject. :)
Three things:
1. I appreciate that you are left handed as well.
2. Why doesn't MY new X10 have the same "Share" option that your screen shows on the muzzle motion plots?
3. The nerd (Mech E) in me insists on expressing that you ignored the CoG and the moments of inertia that are in play and independent of your grip (but admits that the genereal descriptions of the force reactions is spot on). Also seems hard to demonstrate recoil control with dry fire since all "recoil" is generated by your hands and trigger pull. :P
You've earned a new subscriber! :) Loved this content.
So, you’re right of course about the center of gravity and inertial moments, but those are so much to explain and not really controllable.
I really need to purchase a Mantis X
Hey there, quick question.
I used the MantisX recoil meter for the first time yesterday (amazing training tool) with my P365X at the range.
I noticed my muzzle rise angle was typically around 20-30 degrees (which seems fairly high) and that recovery from that typically came to rest left of where the shot hit.
Would you suggest focusing more on reducing muzzle rise by increasing grip strength, or making sure to adjust grip on the gun so that it more reliably returns to the point where the shot broke?
I realize this is a long question/scenario to read so I really appreciate your time if you are able to offer it!
I always try to respond to my subs whenever they have questions and you’re one of the few other big people/channels here on YT that makes an effort to connect with your audience through comments, kudos on you for that!
I would start by focusing on the front to back and side to side pressures and pinky power. If you do, that should be a good start on both of those issues.
...3:37 (ish) "a-peewwww"... 😂🤣😂. Omg that.. Im dying right now!! Omg. Hahahaha
In light of one of your recent instagram posts in which you upgraded your NRA membership; myself, and I'm sure other supporters of your channel would love to see a video discussion on why us as supporters of the 2A, should support the NRA, regardless of some of their recent controversial decisions. Seems like a lot of "cool" gun guys have a strong opinion regarding not supporting them. Would love to hear your thoughts man! Keep up the great work! God bless.
A good idea.
So it's the cartridge case pushing the slide back not the bullet leaving the barrel? Your explanation sheds light on why Glock and Steyr and CZ have the Luger grip angle. Thanks
It's both, surely? There is rearward recoil force whether or not there is a cartridge case being projected to the rear.
We need more nerds with your character and well meaning demeanour John . Americans with guns scare me ... but if I knew they had to have instilled the discipline and training before gun possession well like a driving licence for example then that is more reassuring .. great stuff buddy !
lol like a driver's license? The training required for a driver's license is perfunctory and laughable and useless.