How Infinite Combos Ruin Fighting Games (While Still Being Awesome)
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- Опубликовано: 26 июн 2024
- They go on forever and ever, but usually, that's not great for fighting games. In this video, I take a look at infinite combos, their place in fighting games, and a few examples of the communities who had to deal with them head-on.
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Игры
Infinite at Tourneys: Degenerate
Infinite at Home: OOOOOOOHHHHHH!!!!!
Whenever u get hit by an infinite online I'm just happy that it's being done without the shitty net code eating the inputs
@@starsheep1140 what is it with fighting games and garbage netcode
@@hughmungus99 I think that fighting games are just more sensitive to small input delays than any other genre because they can't use the tools other genres use to mitigate the lag.
As an example some games guess where you're going to go when you disconnect, then if they guess wrong they just kinda teleport you back a bit; this can be annoying in most games, but in fighting games it might make you lose because you get hit by something that you would have avoided but the server didn't.
I hate how realistic this is LMFAOOOO
@@hughmungus99 there are as many reasons for shitty netcode as stars in the sky
Unsurprisingly most of them aren't valid
She continued the wobble for the rest of the video in the background.
nah, she was tapping too fast to Dtilt wobble in the first place.
She ?
@@terreausore2435 the lady wobbling at the start
how is she wobbling on a switch controller?
@@QuantemDeconstructor could be emulator, but the real answer is she isn't and is just faking it for the shot
In competitive JoJo: HftF, infinite loops are allowed a maximum of three repetitions before you have to end the combo. I kinda like that rule.
imagine needing inf loops this post was made my rubby 214a bs gang
3. Na
I'd vote for, if i get dealt, i get dealt with
@@PinupSticknerd That ain't fun for a lot of people. Easy to say that when you're not the one getting wobbled by someone mashing on a controller with no way out.
Matches shouldn't come down to fishing for a specific attack and locking out your opponent
Can you explain how that works? I can't imagine it.
@@BakumanLakuman let's say combo is
Move 1 - Move 2 - Move 3 -> Move 1 - Move 2 - Move 3 -> Move 1 etc.
You can use the 1-2-3 sequence 3 times then you have to use another move than 1/stop comboing
I was very surprised that there was no "LIGHT PUNCH, MEDIUM PUNCH, LIGHT KICK, HEAVY PUNCH" in this video. I haven't even played marvel 2 and the ironman is my favorite infinite due to that.
lmao I wish I coulda fit that in. follow @ironmaninfinite on twitter
Wobbling should be unbanned, it's so hype to watch tense sets, you're either trying to avoid getting grabbed and camping the icies or getting shined at 0%.
@@SwoleTony13 agree
was JUST about to post this
@@SwoleTony13 I WOULD agree but handoffs are still legal and there's ways to loop those
My favorite infinite is the time my dad has been on the liquor store buying cigarettes.
Your lucky my dad buys scratch cards and there's no counter pay at all. Ba bum tish
@EmberMist truly a heartwarming story about family values.
Lemme guess: he literally just spams the punch buttons and swivels the stick to perform this?
@@chrisrockett5897 Its actually more like gambit's glitch, isn't the hits that hurt you, is the abandonment.
@@n00bsstuff36 Damn, that's tough.
Back in my days, doing an infinite combo on the guy sitting literally inches to your side is an instant black eye.
Usually, to the one doing the infinite combo.
Funny coming from a guy with a cute waifu pfp
@@toshirohitsuguya8779 Never said I was the one doing it
@@danhibiki2 it's just funny
This totally happened guys.
usually?
I think a big part of what makes infinites so palatable in Fist of the North Star is that it's based on a manga/anime series focused entirely around martial artists trained in techniques that can destroy the human body with a single touch and the fighting game ended up capturing that exact feeling mostly by accident.
I think it's just a bad game getting new life into it by hitting the "it's so bad it's good" threshold. I'm not a fan of infinite/ zero-to-death combos at all. It loses its novelty pretty quickly and makes me lose interest in the game, especially if it's easy to use and multiple characters can do so. But I'm generally not against infinites if it's an extremely high-risk/high reward play. If an infinite covers that requirement and I get caught in it, you deserve to win.
Fist of the north star was my favorite game when it came out. When i found out about infinite combos, i never wanted to watch tournament matches no more. So broken games like fist of the north star, marvel and such, i only love them when i play casually against casual players. Don't get me wrong, i can play marvel and try hard enough to win against those who do broken stuff if i concentrate, but trying that hard is never fun.
Hokuto no Ken's gameplay is extremely all or nothing with a variety of routes to victory, kinda like MVC2. Each match you'll see players aim to either TOD or Time Out in the first round and end the match quickly in the second, usually through Fatal K.O. (Which is made available by successfully achieving the star of death in the first round. This combined with the viability of the entire cast makes it pretty entertaining.
it wasn't covered in the video but from experience of those who have practiced and played HnK at some competitive level, they mention the combos are not EZ access. It requires well timed execution in comparison to other FGs as the combos can (and will drop). There are many videos (and even a recent one) of HnK 3v3 tourneys where one guy was in the drivers' seat into his TOD while his opponent looked on. Then all of a sudden the player dropped his combo, the player teched out, game went back to neutral then got his hit and proceeded to combo his other opponent to death. HnK is a merciless game that is equal opportunity punishment and the community relishes that. So when you watch those HnK combo montages, think of it more as each player using their experience and focus trying to fight the game mechanic that is trying to deny them of their end result.
Another reason why HnK still gets the yearly attention is through a 3v3 tournament. Nobody really cares enough to play a 1v1 HnK tourney everyone spectating it will get stale with the obvious format favoring Toki. BUT when you make it a team situation, it is still a roll of a dice. Character specialists will show why they don't care about the dreaded Toki matchup. In some cases top 8 teams have included other chars that aren't just all 3 Tokis. Of course when the easy stars align a skilled 3 Toki team just takes home the gold and the pride.
@@t4d0W i love this post fam. You follow Game Newton?
"And then he chooses Ice Climbers? That's no fox!" He says, as the other player has selected Falco, which incidentally, is also not fox.
Yeah but PPMD was the most successful Falco player by far whereas nobody even knew who Wobbles was so he was expected to pick Fox like the majority of players would
Isn't he though?
@@ryane5281 mang0 was the most successful falco he was at #1 at the time but yeah the best ICs run in any tourney ever was because of wobbling
@@fcnelson8875 Was mang0 #1 because of his Falco gameplay tho? I'd say no. He was #1 mostly because of his Fox. He did play Falco as well, but PPMD was purely a Falco player
@@ryane5281 id say that he was number one not specifically for the characters he played, but his style in general. He isn’t reliant on one character like say, Hungrybox, but his intuitive style is what brought him to number one. I honestly think he could’ve made his way to #1 using most of the high and top tiers.
The reason Hokuto has infinites is actually pretty funny, since it was caused by a system explicitly designed to do the opposite. The devs made it so that juggle combos gradually increase the victim's gravity to make them harder to maintain. However, this increased gravity eventually causes the victim to bounce higher and higher like a basketball because the devs neglected to put a cap on the momentum.
I wonder how the game would be if the proper momentum gets patched in.
my favorite combo is
LIGHT PUNCH
MEDIUM PUNCH
LIGHT KICK
HEAVY PUNCH
YOU CAN CANCEL IT OUT INTO MOTHERFUCKIN HEAVY PUNCH ULTRA
BUT I AIN'T GON DO THAT SHIT
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
@@WolfXGamerful
IT DROPPED AT MOTHAFUCKIN FIFTYNINE HITS MUTHAFUKCA, THAT SHIT'S CRAZY!!
dwiky ilhamsyah 😂
Chun Li's air inf in MvC1
(in air, and perfect positioning) lp, lk mp, d+mk [repeat]
*both go off screen into orbit as combo meter keeps rising*
nice mines standiing heavy kick
I really like Base Goku’s TOD: Limit Break + Lv3 Sparking then 2M->5H->Lv3Hand Spirit Bomb->Lv3 Super Spirit Bomb
You can also do Hit: Limit Break + LV3 Sparking then 5H->214M->LV7 Death Blow
Gogeta also has one:
Spark+Limit Break
5h-Ex Rekka-Empty Vanish-Ex Rekka-Cancel into lv5 before the last hit
Then there’s Gogeta + Teen Gohan: Spark then 5H->214S->Gogeta LV2->Gohan LV5
@@BlastoiseMaster pretty sure Frieza also has one
Spark+LB+Golden
5h+2ExSpecial(the one that has him do 2 down heavies. Idk the move cuz i dont play frieza)+Empty Vanish+214S/236S(idk the command but it's the move you use to end combos)+Lv3
Thế Nguyễn Diệp Nguyên
I tried the Frieza one. It didn’t work, but it did quite a lot.
I remember back during the MvC2 haydays, Ironman's infinites were notorious, and the Japanese players, known for their execution were favouring him, yet neither the Japanese scene or ironman as a character ever reached top tier.
Yea, because infinite is not the core gameplay of MvC2. Its the guard break, guard cancel, unfly, refly combos and frame data etc that makes someone a better player at MvC2. Ironman despite having easy 100% infinite have trouble getting in and landing a hit on characters like storm and sentinel, he even have trouble getting in on Cable. Against Magneto, its likely that Magneto will land a hit on IM than the other way around. Even in America where the best MvC2 players are found, IM is not favored.
In hftf, the Japanese have set themselves an honour system where they don't ban anything, but does give you weird looks. Things honour-banned are for example unblockables, TODs, infinites, and at times certain tools or mechanics from S tier characters. Meanwhile the western scene outright bans anything broken. Yet, even with our degenerate plays, the Japanese can still totally destroy any of us even with their honour rules.
Isn't Marvel considered a kusoge in Japan?
@@multistuff9831 So they pretty much get an advantage
If I wanted to play a FG where one mistake is death Id probably just play Bushido Blade.
Or Samurai Shodown 5 Special.
There’s pretty much no difference between dying in a fairly long combo and dying in one hit. You’ll be K.O’ed either way at the end of the day.
@@JohnGaming55 The main difference is that some of these infinites take fucking forever. Just kill me so we can do another round already.
"Just dont get grabed bruh"
- Westballz probably
The defender might be bored but when I'm doing an infinite I am MORE ALIVE THAN I HAVE EVER BEEN I AM A COMBO GOD
BEHOLD MY SUPERIOR EXECUTION PROWESS YOU FUCKING PLEBS. NNNNNNGGGGGGGG
I think this perfectly captures the essence that some people who feel so strongly against juggles are missing.
They don't understand that after tussling in the neutral, its incredibly carthatic to have the freedom to whip your opponent's ass when you get that launch or confirm.
Combos actually improve general pacing & tension as well, contrary to the typical arguments that they kill the pace.
After drawn out periods of pure tension of playing footsies to bait my opponent or tussle for advantage, once I've won the neutral I don't wanna straight go back.
I wanna be able to savour my reward for winning the neutral before returning to the stress & hard work of the neutral.
Calm down bruh.😂
Lol o please most tod come from the easiest button commands or strings
@@MrOzzification yeah but as a fighting game enthusiast, it gets old really fast and whats the point of playing together if your sole goal is to infinite me and have me checking text messages while just holding the controller. I don't think that its something people don't understand, I mean i think anyone will feel satisfaction after landing a huge health bar depleting combo, I think it just genuinely can take the fun out of some games and leave the other player bored or no longer interested in that particular game. Just my opinion.
I think a part of what makes an infinite acceptable is the executional demands for performing it. [Project+ player here, so there's my bias, but] what I found most compelling about the arguments against Wobbling were the lack of victim interaction and the lack of significant execution test. Once Wobbling was banned, we got to see, very briefly, the basically inescapable handoff combos and ICs specific regrabs found in Melee, which more closely featured the execution demands of typical Melee-esc hitstun combos, while also giving opponents a fleeting, though futile, opportunity to escape, a mitigation scenario found in other moments/characters, such as the Fox-Peach Running Shine loops.
This is also why the ICs infinite in P+, which when weighed against the rest of their kit is not as relevant, is so interesting: a position specific (both Nana and Popo must be in different positions to execute, and overall position relative to ledge is a factor for Nana AI manipulation) and suuuper timing tight infinite, but so not worth the risk that it is more of a flex to be killed with it. Unless you are Bowser. Poor, poor Bowser. Gets his own special infinite to die to with only a tight timing execution, bless his heart.
My favorite Infinite is the edgy masked guy from Sonic Forces!
I didn’t think wobbling would sound like a euphemism until I heard the sentence, “my fiancé has been working on her ice climbers”. And now you too will never hear that word the same
I was a kid just randomly moving through streams when I saw my first wobble by wobbles. I couldn't believe my eyes and to this day, I still love seeing a good wobble.
I think infinites in Skullgirls are fun cause you're actively fighting against the system put into the game that solely exists to detect infinites, so you cant repeat the same motions over and over, you have to find a way to combo your opponent without the game stopping you.
One thing MVCI did right was the counter-switch. One mistake shouldn't cost you an entire character or the game.
Surreal It should. You shouldn't be able to INFINITE. BUT you should have a lot of risk when making mistakes in competitive gamimg.
It is really all relative to the game.
Ironic that the game called infinite has to mechanic to stop infinite combos
Bruh The Person it shouldnt losing to something like that is honestly dumb imo
Virtual Fighter is the most balanced game of all time, and grappler's have 50% damage throws. And that's basically what losing a character amounts to in MvC:I.
I KNEW I RECOGNIZED YOU IN THAT CROWD WHEN I REWATCHED ‘WOBBLEZ’ MATCH
I think it would have been nice if you mentioned how this can lead to games that become pretty much 2 games in 1.
You can play Marvel 2 in all of its degenerate top tier glory or you can also play a mid-tier only tournament, which feels almost like playing a different game.
Since MVC2 system is so broken and filled with possibilities even learning what kind of crazy and broken strategy you can come up with when using those who aren't top tier can be a pretty fun experience.
Regarding Melee, while I'm not the biggest fan of that exploit I think there's a lot of charm in watching a top tier trying its hardest with his overpowered arsenal to not get grabbed by the "underdog".
As an FGC guy who knows nothing about Smash... I get so hype every time ICs land the wobble
Oh what's up crofts? Yeah, wobbling is dope. The crowd at Evo was chanting AY AY AY AY like a Ginei-jin combo every time the ICs hit the wobble.
@@Stumblebee nah wobbling is honestly pretty stupid.
I think Icies are so sick, 2 characters at once sounds sweet. I don’t like wobbling because it kinda takes away what makes icies interesting and now they’re “the wobblers” and their gameplay is to wobble you.
@@Clarkbardoone That's why the community dislikes that combo, because it's absurdly easy to get and actually makes mid-level players have bad habits who won't allow them to rise to the top.
@@Clarkbardoone I like the rulesets that ban wobbling until top 32 or whatever. The technique is only not broken at the very top level where everyone dies in 1-3 neutral wins. The skill ceiling of melee is high enough that most players drop punishes. Constantly. Except the ice climbers.
The KV meter in Killer Instinct really solves the infinite problem very quickly. Your opponent can fall out with invincibility frames no matter the conditions, as long as your moves accumulate the KV meter beyond max. Every attack (except for shadow meter moves) adds to the KV meter.
That ending: When you're about to be late for a meeting but this video gotta go live WITHIN THE HOUR
Side note: MVC2 War Machine/Iron-man Fly unfly Infinite is the sexiest looking infinite combo ever
Morrigan comes in second
So my fave isn't something you can use in regular gameplay but it was one of my proudest moments.
In skullgirls there's a bonus fight with the SNK boss called Marie 300% as the name implies they have triple their normal health and if you give them any room to breathe in the first or third phase you get bombarded to death by a flurry of multi hit projectiles. In its third phase the boss becomes a free floating skull which hovers around the screen making it hard to hit in between dodging.
Additionally this boss requires you to fight as Squigly who I hadn't played before. After days without success i went to google and found out that you can pull off an infinite on the boss during its first phase and then exploit the easy to dodge projectiles in the second phase to time the boss out without having to fight the third.
It took me a few more hours to finally beat the boss but afterwards I decided to learn Squigly proper and she's since become my favourite fighting game character of all time.
I beat this fight by playing in The Typing of the Skullgirls mode, which gives you an auto-refilling meter and supers that can do quintuple damage if you type out the prompt correctly. Even that took me many tries, but I eventually managed to beat her (fittingly enough, the final prompt was "The singer's name is Squigly!").
as the maker of Alter Amiba i appreciate his cameo at 12:35
I'm against infinites purely on the basis that it takes so long before the other person gets a chance to do anything again. I'm more for a high octane, back n forth battle rather than just a one hit confirm equals one round. Even in games which don't have them but instead things like ~70% juggle/wall combos, i'm either getting bored by the person doing them to me or feel shitty for doing them to someone else.
"it takes so long before the other person gets a chance to do anything"
if it's really infinite, the opponent gets no chance to do anything lmao
@@soniablanche5672 yeah. i'm aware. my comment was in two parts essentially. firstly saying that i'm against infinites as a whole and secondly that even combos that do ~70% dmg are too long to complete and leaves the other player sitting doing nothing for too long.
better add instakill moves with extremely long combo chains then
This is why I play Killer Instinct, honestly.
C-C-C-C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!!!!
Killer Instinct and Dead or Alive are the only games that have the best mechanics against infinites. At some point, someone is going to push the same button again. At that moment, you counter and follow up with your own.
Unless you're at the end of the game and you lose, then you're eating a 90 second ultra combo. Or if the player reads that you're trying to combo break and they can make the combo longer
@@mitzi3262 the second point only makes the game more interesting because there's a mind game of when you should break the combo to try and avoid damage or should you leave it incase they read the break
That mechanic still comes down to reads. Read the wrong break and you still east damage. Besides the stronger chars in that games history didn't care about the threat of broken combos than having ways to bypass that mini-game altogether. TJ Combo in his prime had big boy damage and grab resets that put all the burden on the defender to guess so many things on that mental stack that its impossible to account and get the read right.
KI is so awesome
Once again, great video as usual.
Heres to spicing up the fgc youtube content stream with some interesting topics.
Looking forward to the next one Bee.
Good stuff as usual.
Technically ics have infinites outside of wobbling, theyre just harder
not really, a few of the low tier fatties get handoff infinited but most of the cast needs a single specific handoff setup that icies basically need a significant amount of luck to setup.
your general Dthrow/fthrow handoff chains stop once nana gets right up to the ledge as popo can't walk forward to regrab off nana's Fthrow.
plus there's the fact that those dthrow/fthrow chains are RNG unless nana's within a yoshi's story platform length of a ledge as her throws are RNG otherwise.
“You wanna learn how to do a fuckin’ infinite?”
fav infinite combos are from Mortal Kombat: Armageddon for PS2 & Wii cuz you could give your custom characters any of the attack strings of any other characters including any of the ones that led to infinites
Playing melee with a stadia controller?
and a 2DS
Yeahhh that was the weirdest thing I have ever seen.
I can't decide if it would be better or worse than sideways joy-cons...
And Wobbling with neutral b
The title represent my thoughts exactly. How can they be cool, yet ruins the fg experience?
because they are only cool to the people who like to do then.(mostly).
Melty blood pfp checks out
Yeah but they're hard to do. You can easily drop some infinites
@@legoblozz What? That doesent make any sense.
@@WThroat what did I say that was so confusing
5:24 _how everyone feels about 2020 so far LOL!_
I need to look up that Ruby MvC2 infinite / bug now. That clip where the guy screams, "I WANT HIM BANNED FROM FROM THIS ARCADE!"
My favorite "infinite" is actually unblockable loops. My team in Marvel 3, Trish / Rocket / Ammy, ended up being centered around the ability to end combos with a situation where the opponent is stuck in blockstun while Rocket Raccoon lands an unblockable to confirm into a combo that repeats the process. Finding ways to modify the setups to take into account the wakeup options of different characters was fun and interesting to me and it made my team feel unique in the way it accomplished "one touches." The top tier embodiment of this kind of team was Apologyman's Firebrand team so that also gave me someone to root for when watching tournaments.
My stand on if infinites should exist are:
1, Fits the game speed. Samsho can have TOD with one or two hits but if it go full marvel and combo for a day it feels off.
2, Not broken, say a lot of the cast have infinites within fairly the same execution difficulty, extremely situational, still have risks if you drop etc.
3, Does not eliminate options. Bad infinites makes the game boring because it eliminate options of characters or the entire game.
4, Not boring itself. Good infinite combo at least should be hype, not A dash cancel A loop, look at Iron man, he jumps all over the place, looks cool is very important in fighting games.
As a set play degenerate myself I sure love my controller disconnect stuff so I'm for some cool infinites in a good environment, which is rare because as the video suggest, most of the time infinites are oversights.
what inf doesnt remove options? like 99% of inf remove options the only one i can thinl of is smash
@@deathbringer9893 When the infinite has actual execution barrier and confirm barrier. When you're in infinite you can't do anything until dead or they fuck up. If most cast has the general idea of different fishing it's expanding options not limiting them.
@@deathbringer9893 MVC2 is an example. Iron man has the infinite but outside of that the character isn't on par in comparison to La Lata (sentinel), Storm, Magneto or even Cable blessed with his AHVB. In some cases it is the only way out against certain team compositions as you don't let them play. BUT if you drop that infinite against a skilled MSP team (Magneto, Storm, Psylocke) they only need a big chance to mix your shit up and kill your team off.
@@t4d0W and then we look at mvc3 and we see a lvl 3 vergil
Samsho is fun but if a hard slash whiffs you are going to die
What a vid! I can think of a favorite ToD before a Favorite Infinite and that's that beautiful scum bag Ash Crimson. He has a power up technique
Sans-culotte - A,B,C,D
A,B,C,D is the button input to make people hate you forever as he pummels you into smoldering Ash.
It's brings a tear to eye
The only thing about it which is not that great is damage and if you drop that combo then you're dead.
6:38
I love how u put El fuertes theme in the background 👏👏 earned a new subscriber
Its no infinite but i love the icies desyncs in ultimate
They require skill
Are cool to watch
And increase the skill gap to master them.
Thats why i main them lol even though im a month in and all that is ok with them is my neutral 🤣
Other than wobbling melee's icies have sick desync combos, which is the main reason why I want wobbling dead; it gives a bad name to a very high skill and fun to watch character.
the day they discovered an ice climber infinite in ultimate was my favourite thing about that game because it was so slow and impractical that it was more comedic than outright broken
How to beat ice climbers, camp and separate them. They are too silly to brawl against.😂
Everyone keeps talking about wobbling in Melee and forget about their chain grab in Brawl, which was much worse.
ChillQuillz they actually have 3 desyncs that are almost infinite, like the one Gimr showcased that’s just Footstool and jab, the second one is down throw footstool+side b and grab again to loop and the Third one it’s similar but instead of side b you jab and get up attack and grab
I feel like TOD combos should be a valid option for team games and some platform fighters simply because it can be difficult to overcome a lead. In something like Kof, having a TOD can be difference between a reversal OCV and losing to a middle character.
I don't play melee, but I feel like this is a reason to keep wobbling. If what people say about their neutral is true I don't see how they're supposed to make comebacks now.
No dude Infinites or TOD is the product of the old times where patching a game is nonexistent
You make comebacks by playing better than your opponent
That's what makes them hype
Barely anyone's heard of it but Gundam Battle Assault 2 is one of my favorite fighting games ever made, and is also incredibly unbalanced, including of course infinites. In particular, the character Deathscythe has an infinite combo off of one of his projectiles anywhere on the screen. When timed correctly, he can combo his projectile into an aerial heavy punch, which he can then combo into the same projectile, and by making use of this teleport move he can immediately cancel out of to gain height, he can hit another aerial heavy punch which combos into the projectile, and because they didn't add a limit to how many times he can teleport in air, this goes on until the combo drops or the opponent dies.
Such a good video, you never disappoint. Just followed you on Twitch and Twitter can't wait to catch a stream.
Hey Stumblebee, I've been a fan of yours since your Street Fighter x Tekken video. Absolutely swell stuff. I have a little suggestion for a video topic. SNK's recent resurgence. Porting many classics to the Nintendo Switch, Samurai Showdown 2019, SNK Heroines, KoF VX and of course having a guest character in several big, and current fighting games. I just find it very interesting. Thanks to anyone who reads this.
I knew this was a Stumblebee video, I just clicked on the video because of the name, then I finished the video and was like "OH THIS IS STUMBLEBEE". I think that's a sign you have a very good and signature style that someone can recognize. (But I also do film so your edits and tone stand out to me I guess...)
The best part of the intro was you holding a 2DS while getting wobbled lmao
Magneto's infinite throw from MvsC2. I used to do this with my friend when he used his spider-man combos on me, to shut him up! XD
By far the best intro to a video seen, EVER. Holy fuck lmao
" where am I? and how long have I been out?"
Im dead
Meh, infinites are fun and invigorating, but at the end of the day, all you're doing is wasting your opponent's time, no matter if the infinite requires perfect spacing, a long command input, and a hard read, or just a grab
That's why FGC has breakers and escapes,right?
TRUE infiniteS are End Of Fun. If there's a way to miss it OR escape, I believe it is OK... ESPECIALLY IF IT IS DIFFICULT
Toon Link that is the enemy's penalty for making a mistake.
@@DragoonCenten The opponent should be punished with something that doesn't waste their time, preferably
Toon Link your time is only wasted if you didn't learn anything, and that depends completely on the player. You can win and still waste your time. You can get hit with an infinite and not waste your time.
@@CesarGonzalez-ur9ic when your playing a fg you shouldnt care about if your enemy is having fun?
Peach had an infinite in smash 4 that was patched out and I put a lot of time into practicing. Off of a grounded footstool she’d float immediately above them and come down with a 1st hit uair. Set knock back on the uair gave peach enough time to get another footstool and loop it. Pretty hard to do and I was sad they patched it out, it felt like peach lost a really cool and expressive technique :/
AIDAN ORMSBY I get your point on something like an infinite not being expressive but I would point you to Josh360 in the marvel 2 scene and his iron man infinite. Albeit with some practice, a lot of people could pull of that combo a few times maybe. But Josh was really known for just landing that shit consistently and rolling people with it and setting himself apart. It’s a rare example of a bullshit thing being hype and expressive but it exists
There are a few cases where I actually like seeing infinites. What actually got me to like the idea is watching a match between Ice Climbers and Meta Knight in Brawl. Thing is Meta Knight is just so powerful in just about every way that he's terrifying as heck and the Ice Climbers have to respect him and be patient. However if that Meta Knight slips up just even once, the tables turn instantly as the grab of doom lets Ice Climbers KO Meta Knight. It's kinda like Sheik vs Ganondorf except more extreme as it's only one grab instead of a few hits.
With that said, if I had the option to have infinites or not, I'll generally not want infinites. Spectating isn't all that fun because it's like watching a repetitive cutscene where you know the outcome everytime. Getting hit by those kinds of combos just kinda kills you inside when you're playing a game to see how good everyone is, but only to fight someone that does the same thing over and over again.
I definitely prefer watching Ice Climbers in Ultimate because they look so friggin cool with all the combos they got, as opposed to watching them standing in one place for a while like in Melee. I don't know how true the combos are for Icies in Ultimate, but at least it's not the same thing over and over again since they seem to have to take more into consideration of where everyone is on the screen and the %.
Skullgirls do something pretty interesting with this:
First of all, there's 2 different systems that prevent infinite combos: one that limits its overall length and other that prevents repetitive inputs. Getting detected by either one results in the opposite player getting the ability to free himself and knock the opponent away with the press of a button. It's called Infinity Burst.
*However,* if you are far enough from your opponent while he uses this move, you wont get knock back and the long recovery animation of the I. B. will allow you to begin yet another entire combo immediately. In fact, you'll be rewarded because hitting an opponent while in his I.B. actually loosens the restrictions the infinite combo detection system puts on you, allowing for a longer combo than usual. You can defeat an entire enemy character (its a 3 v 3 game) with full health and without using specials or anything, if he messes up with his I. B.. There's even a term for a combo that ends in this situation if the opponent falls to it: it's called a Burst Bait.
Not only that, the assist system (AKA using one of your offscreen characters to attack and then retreat) is also exploitable. If you manage to hit both the main and the assisting enemy, you can combo both. It shouldn't matter because all damage assists suffer gets healed when they retreat, but, *what if they didn't.*
Every character has an attack that knocks an opponent out of the screen in a Super Smash Bros fashion, so it gets replaced by another of the enemy characters. It's used mainly to force a specific character to come out, mainly to erase their entire red bar (a % of the damage they received that slowly heals while offscreen but dissappears the moment they get back in). The thing is, only main characters get expelled from the screen, assists don't. So if you hit both the main and assist characters with this attack, the main will dissappear and the assist will stay there, and because assists can't use Infinity Bursts, you'll be able to easily 100 to 0 the assist character with a neverending loop of short basic combos.
I love the rhythm of Zero's lightning loop. It's a metered infinite so technically it's not a true infinite in the pure sense, but with two bars you can pretty much kill anyone in the game.
Put the video on loop and have fun
The editing is so great in this video
Love those Megaman Smash 4 infinites with the metal blade! Probably the first big combo I learned about in Smash 4.
Fighting games should be closer to chess or actual martial arts outside of how the players feel about infinites for spectators it can only be hype for so long
Ever Gladez thank.....you.
It depends on which fighting game you are talking about...
Ever Gladez in reality, they already are, but when the topic is on the spectators of it, you can't really get into stuff like that unless you assume all spectators are on the same skill level.
@@DragoonCenten name one infinite in chess or martial arts?
Ever Gladez You completely misinterpreted what I just said. Also your post would imply that all games in the genre boil down to infinites. I hope you are shitposting.
"Vergil"
Max Dood somewhere in the distance "AHHHH"
M644theawesome 😂
Storm's infinite on sentinel in mvc2 is hands down my favorite. It just looks so nice. And having her scream at him is a bonus.
im so glad this came up in my home. I felt a similar thing with many card games. I used to be a player in CCGs that looked at every card and if I saw an OTK i tunneled to "how consistent can I get this" and I feel there's a lotta parallels here and there. Catch this hit-stun subscribe->bell notif combo my dude
Okay fellow game devs, here is how to fix infinites. If a combo reaches a certain amount (let's say 25 hits as a random number), then give the person being hit one or more escape options via a button press. Perhaps a dodge and counter options. This also helps lower skilled players that get comboed, and while that runs the risk of lowering the skill sealing, you could find ways to balance it in a way so that higher skill players wanna figure out how to work around it.
Thank you for talking about Melee. This was a great video and I'm gonna check out more of your vids. I do think you missed out on a crutial point of the Icies discussion which is that they need Nana to wobble. I think that makes wobbling even more fair, but it still is banned because since Melee is a grass roots game the community can realize that they don't enjoy wobbling and make their own game better.
Great vid
You were so hype I couldn't hear right for an hour thanks bro lol
What shaver did you use in the end of the Video? Shaved clean with only one swipe, i need that thing
umvc3 tac infinites on weird characters are the coolest shit to me
thinking of the nemesis, captain america and dormamu ones off the top of my head
It's really cool for spectacle but just unfair.
I've seen it in mk Armageddon and marvel vs capcom 2.
It takes the fun out of playing because one mistake could cost you the game.
But it's still cool looking.
Yet in some cases it makes games really fun.
This comment is too reductive considering the video you just watched
What was that old saying, Git Gud
@Grima the Fell Dragon Ironic cause broken games stay in evo for years and balanced games dont, so yeah git gud
@Grima the Fell Dragon I never disagreed in just saying that those broken aspects are what makes games fun. Potemkin might not have a combo breaker but if you manage to win with him it feels a lot better than if he was op. So you could either give up or Git Gud
@Grima the Fell Dragon i guess im being a bit anti casual but i dont think removing infinites help, matches are mostly best to 3, One of the umvc3 evo champions didnt even need them. Infinites wont help you if you cant land them
Never thought I’d see Kyanta 2 in a serious video analysis, but I’m happy for it
So endearing seeing you all hyped at the EVOs
I thought u were gonna do a Harry's ad read at the end....but u didn't....so wth were u shaving at the end, StumbleB? 0_o
That Willamette Mall music tho
Haha, thank you. I knew I recognised it.
Don't know why I find it so funny that you're holding a 2DS in the opening skit.
I was expecting a segway to some weird beard shave company sponsor with that end. Instantly liked and subscribed after seeing no sponsor shit.
The "fox only final destination" meme is far from true, bro. I mean, in 2013 it was maybe more true, i guess, but cmon. Even then Marth, Peach, Puff, Falco, and Falcon were very popular and got to top 8
Yeah, even gannon, ice climbers and doctor mario had been making it deep into top 8 at majors in 2009-2012 atleast once each
THANK YOU!!!
Also the other examples of "infinites" from smash he showed are combos with resets, like the megaman one.
Yeah him saying that was stupid
It’s funny to me how the first thing you noticed at evo 2013 were the Ice climbers and not the Dr Mario who played the first set.
No hate just thought that was pretty funny lol great video
This video was stunningly well written--count me in as a new subscriber!
I don't know much about fighting games but I recently played a game called Skull Girls with a friend. However, he's pretty good at the game; more than I am to be exact. He was pulling this crazy combo I couldn't escape. Lucky for me the game has a feature that detects infinite combos, if It detects a combo your character glows a bright pink color, if you press any attack button the character makes a move that separates you from the other player. I honestly believe this feature should be implemented in most fighting games.
I'm not exactly convinced. Seems the argument boils down to "if one broken thing was fixed then game developers would have to fix all the other broken things". Shouldn't we want this? I mean I can totally respect the people that play sailor moon or street fighter 2 rainbow because they're just bonkers, but do we really want this stuff to leak into other games? Broken gameplay is broken gameplay full stop and the unintended side effect of letting these things slide is less responsibility on the part of the game developers. Maybe I'm sounding a bit "no fun allowed" but if it means that games lack mechanics or combos that are "boring and frustrating" as this video states then I'm okay with that
Depends on what we're talking about. Obviously modern games should fixed to function properly, but games that have established communities and have been played for like decades at this point, do players really want that fucked with? I think the failure of HD Remix says no. Likewise, i think what stumblebee was talking about was how do you want to define "properly". Should TOD's exist? should they exist with enough resources? should they not exist unless you get a counterhit? If you ask Mike Z (the guy whos saying that MvC2 is more unbalanced without infinites), Skullgirls (the game he made) has TOD's in the game, but only in rare circumstances and with at least 3 bars, and usually off of CH's or if the Ratio is in your favor ( usually 2v3). But specifically as it relates to MvC2, most infinite combos will actually drop before they kill you if you dont spend meter due to the games' undizzy mechanic.
Mvc2 spent 10 years on Evo, so no ppl want the broken stuff
"Fix" is just a platitude. A game is a game and if you make changes, you aren't fixing or breaking it, you're putting out a different game that's very similar. That's the general point. The jank in mahvel can and often is fun and exciting and that's what mahvel is.
On a further level, the path of least resistance to "fix" is to remove. He's not just saying you'd need to fix everyone's jank, the implicit here is that you'd need to remove everyone's options. It's a fine line but if you just keep cutting and cutting "jank" you are cutting and cutting the decision tree and making a more vanilla, limited game. This is why SFV, as polished and pretty darn fun it's become, is still regarded by many as sleep fighter. Because it's an extreme of this bare essential fun mentally.
The point being made with hokuto no ken and marvel 2 is that something that on first impression is boring and frustrating can become something that's enjoyed. Later on it might even be considered essential, something that enriches a character and a game and build's on it's strategy. If you decide that the first time you see it, you'll never find out.
We keep playing because we want to be surprised and you'll never surprise anyone if you plan something to be exactly as your audience expects it should happen. The best games surprise you without ever being broken or boring... But that's never been achieved without a little jank.
Trouble in large numbers Depsite Skullgirls' attempt to beat infinites, there is still a way to get around that system. You can simply drop a combo on purpose and then start it over instantly to get the same effect. They don't call it Resetgirls for nothing.
i myself think tods and infinites should stay
The message I got was that while high-skill infinites fit the extremely wild environments of Fist of the North Star and MvC2, something as simple as wobbling wouldn't really fit *anywhere.*
The daft thing is, Icies have touch-of-death handoffs. They can 0-to-death just about anyone off a grab without specifically wobbling. But from a player perspective, since wobbling isn't entirely banned, well, why put in the work into learning some fancy, awesome Ice Climbers TOD combos when you can just rhythmically press A? It's simply the most efficient thing to do.
From a spectator and competitive perspective, however, since it's both dead easy to do and dead boring to watch, I think it's wise to ban wobbling for the sake of the game's health. If people put the time into learning Melee Icies outside of wobbling, they could absolutely be put on the map - maybe not as a top tier, but at least a character with some potential hype instead of the opposite of fun.
Even the simplest, most predictable Icies ToDs in Ultimate (grab at ledge, throw(?) into shorthop Nana fair spike) aren't entirely dull because they demand some skilled execution. And seeing them carry someone from center stage to the edge and dunk a schmuck is cool!
as someone who's put significant amount of time into learning "fancy, awesome ice climbers TOD combos" is because they are not TOD a significant amount of the time. if the climbers aren't near a platform/stage edge then nana throws randomly, and you have a 50% chance of only getting an aerial on followup.
most non-fastfallers die to an upsmash grab combo ender at around 100%, you generally build 20-25% per set of handoffs, so your combo will replicate wobbling 1/16 to 1/32 times, you might be able to mixup a DI escapable regrab setup depending on the character to give you a better chance, but for each you do you'll only cut out one handoff set and make your chances 1/8 to 1/6.
nobody who wants to actually play melee for the competitive aspect would play wobbleless ice climbers, and even people who play for the style would generally prefer to play a character who they aren't hampered by RNG on.
people don't do handoffs as often as wobbles because they rely on RNG, not because icies players are just lazy or whatever
I honestly prefer a mid tier who rewards the player for being creative about their combos over a high tier who only uses wobbling ruining the experience of less experimented players. A pro can easily avoid grab since IC options are underwhelming in general, but a player has to miss one wavedash per stock (something even pros do) to be punished with death.
I just infinite comboed that video. Right after that, i was like, wait this is already over? Yes, 17.10 minutes have passed. This video was really good!
@stumblebee what is that fighting game shown at 2:19?
I find it awesome that a fist of the north start fighting game accidentally because aa touch of death simulator given the memes about the serious. You truly are "already dead"
The video was awesome...a lot more focused and sharper than usual...great job.
Also...are you ever going to continue the video series about guest characters
The fact that the fist of the North Star game pretty much had a scene around beating ultra op methods with more ultra op methods kinda fits considering what it’s based of off
In the long long ago when my friends and I played a few multiplayer competitive combat games
Mortal Kombat Deception- they would get upset at anyone who used long combo chains from, ya know, actually knowing the character's moves instead of just button mashing
DBZ Budokai 3- no one was allowed to Dragon Rush because it meant that your character's ability to block incoming damage was reduced to a set of rock paper scissors quick time events, especially if playing a character that had a huge ultimate move at the end of the rush. The Dragon Rush was a big mechanic to set up fatigue to more easily hit your regular ultimate moves. They also banned transformation guard breaking into ultimates.
Goldeneye- no Odd Job (actually pretty standard), no Proxies, no lasers unless playing lasers only
Smash melee- no fox. just straight up no one was allowed to play fox.
Anything in any game that gave an experienced player advantage over a newer player became taboo.
Wobbling is THE mechanic of IC. If you know how to wobble, then combos, reads, movements, any fundamentals of Melee are thrown out the window. It's bad enough that it exists but it also has its own setups. As if the easiest infinite in the game needed to be easier. There are IC mains that only practice wobbling. If people complain that Puff is too campy, then complain about IC's fishing for grabs and forcing players to play defensively which is so mind numbingly dull. IC's still have chain throws so banning wobbling isn't invalidating them, it's invalidating IC mains who fish for grabs the entire set then act like they earned it.
I don't see how it's an IC's fault that their opponent is camping them when you can still camp them out even without wobbling.
I was there for the publishing lol
I liked how you mentioned actual infinites in Umvc3 such as spencers zip loop rather than tac infinites
Stummblebee: The usual Fox only, no items, final destination that I’d come to expect from top level melee
Hungrybox: I’m I a joke to you
Ayy, Hokuto no Ken is godlike, love the game.
Protip: when shaving, short strokes are far superior to long strokes
nice blades though, took all that off in one shot
5:23 what’s your iFunny?
If you can nail a 1 frame input every loop you deserve the infinite. No one can nail a 1 frame input 100% consistently, and that's what makes it hype to pull off.
Im sorry, Raiden pronounced Riden?
It's the correct Japanese pronunciation of that name AFAIK, though in the context of the Mortal Kombat character it's wrong lol.
@@LonelySpaceDetective Yeah, im aware of that much lol, but in MK its def "Rayden"
Plus literally any time you choose him whoever you have as an announcer says his name. When you win they say his name. A lot of intros mention his name.
I really don’t get how he got it wrong
One hit KO? F I N E, works for some games, works for some people. One hit K.O. that lasts two minutes, and I need to wait through it? N O. Just no. It makes the whole round unfun for all three parties in the match: the executioner, the receiver, and the audience. Long combos is considered the main or one of the main reasons that Tekken Tag Tournament 2 wasn't and isn't popular, and didn't sell. (Didn't sell so much, it's a miracle that Tekken 7 got released). When you know the round is over, but I have to wait 75% of the healthbar go down, it's just not fun. And actually right now it's the main point of criticism of Tekken 7 season 3 again, too long/too damaging combos, as both damage and wall carry got buffed across the roster
You make a great point, but that is where community comes into play. Just how some infinites aren't banned but others are.
tekken needs to be fixed tho,
I honestly think Tekken 7 was just marketed far better (and it has cool crossover inclusions and Negan). People join for that then they either stick around for the story or to learn or they leave.
TTT2 at least had Tekken Ball in one version and I'll take a terrible game with it but the most damning thing I've heard is that TTT2 is too hard to learn competitively (not something T7 even tried to fix till they sold frame data) and Unknown doesn't have a stand (okay I feel this one a bit).
Yeah, doubles of a character (via semiclones) can be a nuisance and it is odd for a tag game, but rules could be implemented if it is an issue.
Also worth noting that Wobbling being banned partially comes from the fact that Icies players can still do hand-offs, which can also be touch of death but are much harder to execute and depend on stage positioning, platform placement, where Nana is at the time of the grab, etc. Essentially you could argue they're still not balanced, but they're certainly MORE balanced than wobbling by virtue of the higher skill requirement of the player and the narrower context/smaller range of errors that directly lead to getting hit by it on the opponent's part. So the wobbling ban isn't a blanket ban on infinites, just the ones that look more like MK11 Raiden than Marvel 2 Iron Man, Storm, Magneto etc.
if you're concerned about balance you'd be against a wobbling ban rather than for it. handoffs are RNG midstage and icies as a character are largely awful at controlling their opponents stage position. making a character worse does tend to raise skill ceilings, but that's cos you made the character worse. icies without wobbling are not a viable character as they have no way to control the opponents stage position against the vast majority of the cast (they can reasonably do so against fastfallers but everyone has crazy punish against fastfallers so that's kinda moot)
making the 8th best character in the game go from an instakill grab midstage with nana around to one that is likely to only do 30-50% against the vast majority of the cast is not "more balanced".
@@nickq8093 I may have misused the word when I referred to balance - I meant in regards to the balance of offensive-defensive control between players in the punish game, rather than objective power.
@@FrizzlenillCAN that's pretty questionable too tho. wobbling is inherently tied to nana, who ice climbers can pretty easily lose off a single neutral loss.
with wobbling neutral is a high risk high reward situation on both sides, icies can take a stock, the opponent can kill nana and render icies a low tier for the rest of the stock, and icies have the worse neutral there.
take wobbling away and the opponent can still reduce them to a low tier.... but icies mostly just get a punish that every high tier could get anyway (~75% chance of 30-50%). they can get more on fastfallers but who CAN'T get more on fastfallers.
I was half expecting a dollar shave club sponsorship at the end