Comeback Mechanics (In Games [Mostly Fighting Games])
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- Опубликовано: 30 янв 2021
- How about you Comeback Mechanic to my place and we uhh, talk about Guilty Gear, how's that sound? B^)
MASSIVE THANKS TO VGBOOTCAMP AND TEAM SPOOKY:
VGBC - / vgbootcamp
/ videogamebootcamp
Team Spooky - / teamsp00ky
/ teamspooky
Also ty to Arya of TBS for being skeletor
TBS - / @thatblastedsalami
Games shown (in order of appearance)
Fighters Megamix
Trackmania - www.trackmania.com/
Riptide GP2 - store.steampowered.com/app/25...
Super Pilot - store.steampowered.com/app/64...
Burnout Paradise - store.steampowered.com/app/12...
Forza Horizon 4 - www.xbox.com/en-GB/games/forz...
Grand Theft Auto 5 - store.steampowered.com/app/27...
Mario Kart Double Dash
Mario Kart 8 Deluxe - www.nintendo.com/games/detail...
Ultra Street Fighter 4 - store.steampowered.com/app/45...
Tekken 7 - store.steampowered.com/app/38...
Guilty Gear Xrd Rev 2 - store.steampowered.com/app/63...
Fallout New Vegas - store.steampowered.com/app/22...
Street fighter 5 - store.steampowered.com/app/31...
Super Smash Bros Ultimate - www.smashbros.com/en_GB/
Power Rangers Battle For The Grid - store.steampowered.com/app/11...
The King Of Fighters 2002 Unlimited Match - store.steampowered.com/app/22...
Marvel VS Capcom 2
Ultimate Marvel VS Capcom 3 - store.steampowered.com/app/35...
My socials innit -
Twiiaa - / leonmassive
Twich - / leonmassey 
Игры
I wish someone loved me as much as leon loves Guilty Gear
Realest shit
don't get unrealistic expectations
Call your parents and grandparents
I love you more than leon loves guilty gear
@Nicolas Pokusa see this is how the hoes get you
Another aspect to comeback mechanics in fighting games is the type of games that such mechanics are found in. Marvel v Capcom is an inherently volatiles series with infinite combos, happy birthday kills, and sparse neutral. A mechanic that ramps this volatility to the maximum while also providing interesting decisions based around when to activate it is fitting to the core of the series. On the other hand, Tekken is a franchise that is based around movement, prediction, and precise combos. A mechanic that removes the complexity of these things at the end of a round does not suit the core of the franchise.
If I could like a comment multiple times I would
What’s a happy birthday kill? I’m a casual at MvC
@@Guitar-Dog It's a common slang term for when two characters are comboed at the same time. If a player manages to hit both his opponent and his opponent's assist at the same time, he can kill both characters with a combo that juggles both of those characters. This is incredibly difficult because the game lags when multiple characters are being hit and because the timing for the combo can be finnicky. X-Factor is a really important mechanic in these cases because it serves to mitigate the harm that happy birthdays can cause to a player. If two of your characters are killed due to one bad assist call, X-Factor level 3 can put you right back in the match.
It can be done. Look at Smash Sephiroth. His One Wing Angel has a far riskier requirement to activate if he's ahead in stock while less risky if he's behind in stock. Directly translate this to Marvel could mean the X Factor is harder to activate if you still have more characters. If we put this example in say...Guilty Gear then maybe it could boost your Meter gain the more behind you are but gives less Meter if you are ahead or sth. It won't directly translate to damage BUT it gives an opportunity for a comeback
@@atlantic2909 I chuckled far more then I should've when finding out happy birthday is a real term. I love that the origin of the slang is that a guy lost a tournament due to this on his birthday, and people started saying happy birthday to him sarcastically. Then it just stuck.
Local man too angry to beat an oldman with a funny hair
Lasheron compañero que hace aquí
@@reboomer8369 que pesados que son, nisiquiera ha subido nada en siglos y le seguis preguntando lo mismo xD
No esperaba verlo señor
Lo umiyastes
British man yells at Harada
I just realised that in shooters the comeback mechanic is basically the map: the farther back you get pushed, the more advantagous the map becomes for the defenders and gives them more high ground and forces the attackers to push through chokepoints. Hell, even the distance to the spawn room can be seen as a comeback mechanic.
This is one of the main balancing methods in TF2 and it isn't exactly perfect but it is still good. Barnblitz and Dustbowl last are notorious examples of this because the final checkpoint of the map is horrendously good at producing the stalemate that the defending team needs to win in exchange for them having to fight for a really long time which gives them time to make mistakes which can give attackers the opening they need to win. basically it's a war of attrition which isn't exactly a good thing but some maps like Upward and 5gorge can use to their advantage
Ok, the "CUUUUUUUUM" license plate was too hilarious to not point out.
When?
@@Liliana_the_ghost_cat 1:22
@@emi1807 thanks
The little text rant about "good tutorials" was spot on
From the glances we've seen of Strive's, I think it could have a really good tutorial when it comes to the fun for newcomers department.
Spot on.
The worst offender this is Soul Calibur 6 where key character game plans are in text and the basic tutorial is in the Story Mode
On the other hand Granblue Versus does the best in terms of explaining basic concepts and "game-ifys" the learning process making learning the game extremely fun.
@@OseiTheWarriors Did Soulcalibur VI even get a tutorial for the new gameplay mechanics that came with Hilde's release?
@@KaiKrimson56 if you're referring to Soul Attacks and the new Guard Impact that can counter unblockables all I can say is maybe?
It may have been added to the story mode tutorial bit I haven't bothered to check. The only way I knew about these mechanics is cuz of tournaments, streams, and forums
Look how much this man loves Gear. Give him Strive early Arc Sys
Bad ending
I don’t know why RUclips recommended this channel to me, a person who’s never seriously played a fighting game in their life, but I couldn’t be happier that it did
I got reccomended this channel and core a gaming even thought I dont play fighting games. I'm going to start playing SFV because of them
I think the best part of it is once you start watching the tournaments after understanding the game.
Welcome to the FGC!
Leon Massey makes a 14 minute video because he's mad he couldn't get out of pools.
I wish I could write essays as good as how Leon explains fighting games
Give a shot. Experience makes you better at anything
you wouldn’t believe how easy it is to write essays when you actually care about what you’re writing about
He explains it in the worst possible way as he gives you the perspective from a very low level fighting game player. He knows absolutely nothing about high level play and bastardizes explaining the nuances involved with the way these mechanics are used at high level.
"Honey wake up new Leon Massey vid"
Wow i've NEVER seen that before.
Pog
@@deveshwarsudhakar8392 if that means stealing then yeah
@@oonkymppa5923 lol
ruclips.net/video/3jabPgOnFjw/видео.html
To dive further into the racing game analogy:
I'm a pretty big racing game fan. Trackmania, Distance, F-Zero and Burnout to name a few, and one of my more recent favorites has a pretty hefty comeback mechanic. I play (or rather PLAYED, before the world ended) a lot of Wangan Midnight Maximum Tune 5, which is a prevalent racing game found in arcades.
The game features outright blatant rubberbanding via adjusting the top speed of the player cars. The further behind you are, the faster you'll go relative to the leader. It means that if you're behind, and both players execute perfectly, you'll both end up in a battle for 1st in a very short period of time.
I'll be real, I smoke a lot of my friends in racing games, and it's always been a bit of a pain point for me, because I love them enough that most of my friends can't keep up with me, so a more casual focused mechanic like this is actually wonderful in my eyes, enough so I keep a 2nd fully tuned card for friends so they can play high-speed tunings with me.
The thing that stands out to me when I analyze a system as outright blatant as Maxi 5's though, is how LITTLE it bothers me when I play other regulars at the arcade, win or lose.
Let's take the example above again, with the two perfect drivers. The trailing car will be able to catch up in a while due to the comeback speed boost, but should the point driver start making mistakes, the time before the trailing car catches up is shorted. If the trailing car makes mistakes, it extends the amount of time they will spend trailing before having an opportunity to overtake.
You could argue that this is an advantage strictly to the trailing vehicle. "Just wait until the end of the race, then blow past at the end." but it isn't that simple. Maxi 5 has a very powerful defensive playstyle that encourages roughhousing, and the more time you have to try and challenge the leader, or find an opening in traffic to blow past them on a corner, the better off you are. Plus, the closer you get, the more rapidly the mechanic loses momentum, meaning you won't be blowing past at high speed just because you were behind.
What it almost always comes down to is consistency. In a sim environment, if one driver makes a mistake early on, but then drives perfectly for the rest of the race, and their opponent stayed perfect the whole time, they will never get another opportunity to take the lead, and have already lost. Makes for a pretty underwhelming race, and a disappointing loss. With Maxi 5's heavy rubberbanding, the same assumption scenario of two perfect drivers with a botched opening, results in a constant back & forth battle for pole position to the end of the race.
What a system like this provides is opportunities, and I think that's the important part comeback mechanics need to focus on. The Maxi 5 rubberbanding provides a lesser skilled driver SOME form of passing opportunities (provided enough competency to drive the track, of course), while a more skilled player in the back will have all the same opportunities to battle out against the leader thanks to the mechanic, but get to that phase sooner due to catching up faster, resulting in them getting more opportunities/the lead sooner (which, ironically, could give the opponent more time to stage their own comeback than if they caught up and passed them later on without it)
What results is a game that emphasizes it's cartoony, action-movie esque car battling, rewards trailing players with more chances to overtake based on how well they showcase their traditional driving ability, and rewards leading players with giving the opponent less chances to overtake based on how little they mess up.
I think that's the important part of the comeback mechanics that fighting games need to be focused in on more; Opportunity. X-Factor in Marvel 3 is hated because of how many opportunities it REMOVES from the winning player. 1-3 hit confirms (depending on resources) per character, to win (so ~3-9 chances) gets thrown out the window in favor of multiple 1-touch-kills awarded to the losing player. The winning player's reward for playing well is to lose on potentially less opportunities than they won with to get there.
Compare this to Dragonball FighterZ's Sparking. While it does also come with a damage boost, it's nowhere nearly as strong, and barely lasts long enough to sweep a team. Meanwhile, it introduced something unique; active health recovery while being hit, and an absurd amount at that. While it certainly dragged out games (personally something I wasn't huge on) it did provide the trailing players more chances for survival when their backs were up against the wall.
Active health recovery as a comeback mechanic does not worsen the attacker's opportunities should they get hit, but it does provide the defending player more breathing room, meaning should they start mounting their own comeback, they may still have an extra hit or two left in them.
I think there's other avenues to explore here once a player is on their last legs. Limited time/quantity pushblocks, low damage meterless reversals, maybe a temporary speed boost (my favorite aspect of X-Factor is easily the new combos that open up. Shame people die so fast). Something that can provide the defending player more chances to stay in the game, without compromising the advantaged player's position. Say what you will on it being exciting/restrictive/underwhelming, I think V-Skill & V-Reversal is a great example of how to try pushing this concept.
I just want to say THANK YOU FOR SPACING OUT YOUR PARAGRAPHS! Made this super informative comment so much easier to read when it isn't a massive wall of text.
@@Elonyx.studios ay np.
Bruh all interactions in Marvel are one hit touch of death combos.
@@paulakroy2635 under absolutely ideal circumstance, yes, but that's not always the case, and there's lots of factors at play.
If you want to get a 1 touch kill in Marvel, you have to have at least one or more of these going for you;
Meter is the first big one. Anyone can KO if you have enough bar, but that's not going to be the case for every character. Suppose you get a touch at round start. You have 1 bar. Who's killing with 1 bar? The answer is Zero and only Zero (thank you Zero loops). If you can build a 2nd bar during that combo, characters like Magneto & Doom via a 2 bar DHC may kill, but your opponents character plays into it. Are they a low health character like Zero or Vergil? One bar may be enough. Dante will die to a 2 bar DHC, but Chris Redfield, Captain America, or Haggar will probably survive it. You can step it up to a Lv 3, but not everyone has one. You also haven't built the bar yet, and even then, not every character is going to have the damage output to kill off a Lv3. They may need a 4th bar for a lv 1 follow up, like Dante does. Again though, if you're combing say, Akuma, the Lv 3 would have been enough.
Suppose you're playing Wolverine though. Round start hit. Are you killing a Captain America? Probably not. Unless you spend X-Factor. And that combo will build you enough meter that you'll be able to kill the 2nd. But you won't have meter or X-Factor for the 3rd, which is why round start X-Factor is a gamble. Maybe you could go for a TAC infinite, but you're now gambling your opponent picked wrong, and you'll need a character who can not only do one, but also do one in the direction you picked.
This is the deal with Marvel. If you HAVE the right resources, against the right time, against the right people, you CAN get a 1 touch, but the management of getting that, both in-game and at the character select screen, is not always going to play in your favor. Things will happen, and the important thing to remember is that these aren't free. A lot of what gets put on display is the top level players with the top level decision making, both in the moment and with their teams, so that they CAN set up and chain together multiple 1 touch kills.
Or you could play Zero. Zero will just 1 touch kill you.
@@CrunchyMaggots reading stuff like this really just reminds me i should get into marvel
"Quality over Quantity"
Look how they massacred my boy.
@@madil2259 who's your boi?
10:19 the reason the 2nd paragraph is only visible for a short time is because Leon was embarrassed at the misspelling of "incentivised"
7:39 "At a high level of play" *KY does 3 greed severs in a row.*
wdym, this is peak ky gameplay
Mommy, Leon Massey is making me pause his videos to read his funnies
I'd argue that GG guts isn't a comeback mechanic rather a way to give characters their effective health since everyone has a healthpool of 420. Sparking from DBFZ i believe is Marvel vs Capcom 3's X factor done properly because while being a comeback mechanic both characters get the chance to use it, it acts as a defensive mechanic that can be punished if called out, and as an offensive mechanic it scales a combo to all hell. In season 3 they added a last character damage buff as well as giving you 1 bar on your last character and I think it actually is such a genius idea that keeps the person that had a lead in the lead because they will get that crutch and get to be a bit more loose with their meter while also allowing the player that's behind to be able to 2 touch if not tod each character they get a hit on assuming the have the correct amount of meter. Comeback mechanics as a whole are exciting to players at all skill levels if they are not so overtuned so that the player that was originally winning never gets a chance to use it in 50%+ of games. It has to be a mechanic that is just strong enough to
give the loser a winning chance but not so much that you'd rather throw away some hp so you can win the game.
Especially since the player with 3 characters is so inherently at an advantage that a game that gets to the point of a 3v1 is otherwise a complete wash with no chance for comeback.
Guts is very literally not a comeback mechanic in the same way that giving every character in a fighting game 100 more hp isn't a comeback mechanic. Guts is like if in racing games you got slower the closer you get to the finish line. It looks like you're getting closer to the person in the front but really you're just as far behind as you were since you experience the same exact slow down.
Comeback mechanics are pretty important for fighters and something that no dev should shy away from. When your game inherently has win-more mechanics like meter gain from hits or the other player losing assists/tags it needs something that balances that back out that you can play around like Sparking in DBFZ or V-Trigger in SFV. This is also a good reason behind why tag games have way more powerful comeback mechanics when if someone is winning the other player loses assists and you get meter. Tag fighters can afford to be a lot more aggressive with their comeback mechanics since they're on the casual end of fighting games so something over scaled isn't that big of a deal unless it's REALLY over scaled. More competitive fighting games need to balance it out against the tools that the win-more mechanics afford the winning player.
@@grandsquanchrum Tekken doesn't really have snowball mechanics apart from a life lead and a really oppressive timer so rage might be overtuned.
@@grandsquanchrum I never understood why so many fighting games give more meter to the player who is hitting more attacks rather than the opposite. Meter is inherently a versatile, interesting resource that is would function much better is used as a comeback mechanic than these sort of flat damage buffs you see with rage or X factor. Instead it kinda becomes just a mechanic to help the winner do cool-looking moves while they're snowballing to victory. Every other fighting game has a differently implemented comeback mechanic with differing effectiveness, yet so many fighting games implement the same sort of meter system but don't implement it to fit its most obvious purpose.
I disagree with Sparking and Limit break being better comeback mechanics. It's more of a mixed bag.
With Sparking specifically, the health regen is insane. In UMvC3 X-Factor regen I believe was pretty slow, meaning that while the player in X-Factor can generally 1 touch you with ease, if you can get a hit in and don't flub your combo they can die. In DBFZ, the health regen from sparking is much faster meaning that you regen while being comboed, making most punishes against a character in sparking just a chance to lower their sparking time. I've seen combos that deal 0 real damage because sparking regenerated most of their health, and level 3s don't help because all their damage is blue health and you've regened most of it because it continues while you're knocked down and during certain pauses in the middle of the level 3 animation.
Also in UMvC3, there is also a way to punish a certain X-Factor set up. You can X-Factor during blockstun and get a punish against that attack, usually reversing momentum since when a character does your opponent gets a meaty and/or mix up on the incoming character and you get a small chance to put the hurt back on them. That being said, if your opponent is aware you're going to do this, they can throw and quite a few characters can combo and kill from throw.
Limit Break also affects characters disproportionately. Z Broly has good mix with his comand grabs and good zoning with his Ki blasts and other abilities to deter just superdashing through them. One of the ways he was balanced though was through giving all his normals I believe starting his combos at 90% proration, meaning his hit/grab mix alone isn't enough to two touch you. Now add Limit Break damage buff and his extra 1 bar that can be saved for level 3 and now his Light command grab will get you 50% life. With Sparking it gets worse and now he regens through your combos so you need to catch out a character whose normals and specials have armor and can lead to you losing 50%+. The only reason I think Z Broly last hasn't been seen much is because the game is centered around 1 touch normal combos 2nd touch 1-1-1 kill which means Z Broly is getting shifted around a lot and won't always be your last character and raw tag to save him carries the same risk as super dash. Limit break just makes already solid characters also have the threat of needing less hits to kill you and can let solo characters mow through weakened teams. There's definitely nothing on the tier of X Factor 3 Vergil or X Factor 3 revived Phoenix and probably never will be since DBFZ characters usually have fewer character specific tools because the game only utilizes qcf and qcb and sometimes 22x, but most of the groundwork is still there.
DBFZ actually has a small system change that kind of works like a comeback mechanic that makes it much better than UMvC3, being the reset to neutral after a character down. UMvC3 was a casual killer solely because when you lost a character you had a predictable entry timing with your next character which could be used to set up mix or meaty which left many games feeling like a one-sided beatdown for people who didn't have the match-up experience for defending against the set up. In DBFZ, when a character is downed, you only negative effect is the loss of that character. You're not subject to mix afterwards and are given some time and breathing room to decide how to approach your opponent next. You don't have to deal with Zero snowballing out of control or Morrigan setting you up for a second round of Touhou with meter drain and chip because she got 1 bar and still gains meter through her twin super. It's definitely not a comeback mechanic in the traditional sense where the player is given raw power for being close to losing, but it is a change that definitely helps more casual players and is a change I'd like to see more in other VS games.
There isn't a better way to start your day, then watching Leon Massey.
3:22 YOU THINK I DIDNT SEE THAT LEON
You were supposed to 😳
Doa5 has one of the best implementations of a comeback mechanic I've ever seen. Once you're health gets down to 50%, you can do a Power Blow or a Power Launcher. The Power Blow is essentially a Rage Art; an automatic combo that does decent damage and let's you control where your opponent lands, which allows you to combo into wall breaks, stage transitions, breakable objects, etc. The Power Launcher is pretty self-explanatory; a huge fuck off launcher that lets you get combos you couldn't normally pull off. Every character has both of these, and some benefit more from one than the other, but what makes this so balanced is that you have to charge these moves in order to get either the PB or PL, and with how defense works in DoA, if you try going for these outside of Critical Stun or the treacherous Critical Blow, the opponent is probably gonna hold your attack for a third of your health bar. It's design completely prevents it from being a panic button, so you have to think about *how* you'll use it, and which one to use: either the safe, guaranteed damage of the Power Blow or the risky but potentially astronomical damage of the Power Launcher.
pls play doa leon-senpai its good game i promise
Power Blow definitely is a Comeback but not Power Launcher. Its more of a risk reward thing like GG Danger Time
@@nomblob5592 Well, I lumped them in together because you have to be at half your health bar in order to use either, but I see what you mean. In truth, I don't use Power Launchers because the characters I play either don't have good combos or don't have good combo damage, so I prefer the ability to put my opponent in a bad spot with the Power Blow
DOA is genuinely one of the best fighting games and deserves to be recognized as such. Change my mind.
5:05 “Ranging somewhere between stepping on Legos”
You mean infinite damage?
to be fair that's still accurate, you either die or lose a good chunk of your health of they set up an unblockable.
i feel like if you ever come back to this topic, blazblue's overdrive would be a super good topic
it's a comeback system that, despite being different throughout the cast, feels meaningful with every character and has counterplay. in my mind it's the perfect middle ground between hellfire and x-factor
Ah yes, Terumi doing 8k damage loops. I like that you have to choose between bursting and overdriving, and how active flow rewards good play. BBCF should really get more attention.
@@grandpanoogie2665 It could've been huge if the netcode wasn't trash
JoJo All Star Battle also had a comeback system where some characters got a damage buff at their last 20% of health and other revived with 20% health
But that's stuck on a PS3/360
@@bumibomber If the rollback netcode ArcSys are working on for GG Strive manages to make it's way into whatever new BlazBlue project they might be planning, then maybe there's a chance.
@@bumibomber This whole netcode movement was super niche until last year, with just people like Sajam mostly pushing for it. As an anime game from the series that people liked to pretend to hate despite never playing it and went "I'm a GUILTY GEAR fan cause that's the COOL anime game" (despite never playing Gear either) that came out in 2016 it was never going to be huge. Anime fighters that don't have massive IPs are niche, and there's nothing wrong with that.
10:20 eventual video topic? Especially since you’re willing to go into things outside of the games, I could see you doing great job on that one. Thanks as always!
I'm fully in support of this. Modern fighting games need a lot more criticism in this regard especially since a good bit of the fgc supports this idea. Devs should do more to curate the experience and growth in fighting games instead of only leaving the tools around for the players to learn.
That SFV to smash transition was clean
Hearing someone speak about engagement, game feel, and, meaningful decision making with nuance while talking about comeback mechanics is *seriously* refreshing.
Most fighting game players / fans just spit out "its all bullshit, just pick your favorite flavor of doodoo lol" when talking about comeback mechanics.
This video is great.
As ringo roadagain once said: an earned victory is the true man's world
lol Guilty Gear is my favorite fighting game and I didn't even know that Hellfire was an actual mechanic, I thought it just said it whenever you end the round with a super lol
"varies between stepping on a lego and being hit by a car at 80 mph" i dont think i've ever head someone describe pain in the wrong order
I don't think it was mentioned here, but SF4 and SFV also have their "guts" system where a character takes less damage the lower their health is.
I'm not very familiar with GG but from what I've heard it's MUCH more pronounced than in SF
@@yugiohnerd22 It is, SFV's damage multiplier goes down to just 0.75, whereas in GGXRD the multiplier can go as low as 0.38 at 10% health.
GG also sets a defence multiplier for each character that can reduce the damage even further, but I don't know if that really counts; technically everyone in the game has the same health, and the different defence multipliers scale the base health effectively like in any other fighting game.
I'm surprised you didn't really cover how meter burning Supers in general were pretty much the first and longest lasting comeback mechanic. Though I guess meter burning Supers really deserve their own video lol.
It really depends on the way that the meter builds which can flip supers from snowball mechanics OR comeback mechanics, It's definitely a video for another day though because it's a very long topic LOL
Like Leon said meter gain can be pretty complicated. Sometimes meter rewards a player, the opposite of a comeback mechanic.
These mechanics are needed for games to not feel like they end before a player actually loses, regardless of skill level.
As long as both players get to make use of them, no person has a real advantage over the other.
Still, bonus points if they give you the choice to spend your comeback factor to extend your offense, that's cool as fuck.
"As long as both players get to make use of them" is one of my big gripes specifically about Tekken 7's rage, because if I'm below the rage threshold and my enemy is at 50% health, if I had any kind of punish window I could end the round then and there by doing a normal combo with and end it with a rage art before the opponent even gets the chance to capitalize on their rage.
The problem with that is the issue comeback mechanics and beginner level mechanics always have though; knowledge checks. Every has rage art in tekken 7 but if you’re opponent knows how to use Akumas for a TOD combo/close enough while you’re unaware Jin has a better rage drive than art players are gonna be even more frustrated because this mechanic that was supposed to make it so they had a fair chance is now being used to, in their eyes, steal a game they’re hard work went into in the blink of an eye.
X factor is the biggest example for this. To a casual it’ll make them feel like they’re putting up a fight when they lose two guys, but the minute someone uses it’s against them for a happy birthday TOD they no longer care. They don’t know how to do that. The mechanic that was made to make things more more forgiving for people without the knowledge to make big comeback combos is now being used to put them in a worse position than ever. It’s an idea appealing to equity, but it can only work off the principle of equality, so now instead of little Timmy being given an opportunity to play the game more he’s been dunked into a situation where he’s losing even harder.
@@ramp8536
Not only rage arts but rage drives. In tekken you can legit death combo with the right stage and even easier with right character, i.e. 2d characters especially. This is why people have such gripes with tekken. 2d characters have insane options that no other characters have. In addition, most characters with a decent rage drive can easily take out 75% or so of your health or put you in a situation where id you guess wrong one more time you're dead. I love tekken because of its depth and execution but I absolutely hate what the rage system has become.
you know of all the problems these mechanics can have, at least these games don't allow you to just pick a boss character and win with 2 moves, fucking kof 2002
aren't they are banned online?
@@cyon1697 I tried a player match and the guy picked C zero, he can break your block in one move. I guess I wait for kof 15 and hope that has rollback too...
I'm sorry to hear you ran into someone who cared more about winning a random player match at any cost than respecting the integrity of the game. This was what I would call a very unfortunate case of bad luck on your part... However! I will state with unyielding confidence that _no one who actually cares about said game_ would think less of you for simply disconnecting at the mere sight of someone picking so much as one of them, so if that was your first and/or only experience playing online I would encourage you to please try again. Truth be told it's been a while since my last session with the title, but despite my profile pic I've never entered a set with the intention of picking a boss character and have never had it done to me. It sucks that the game relies on the honor system to prevent them from being abused by shitters, but it's also fair to say there's nothing forcing you to give those people the time of day. So keep this in mind, maybe you still won't love the experience but if nothing else I hope you can manage to have a better time playing someone who at least put in their fair share of effort even if you end up losing.
@Leo B ...oh. I should have trusted that SnK would have the foresight to include such a basic option in the online mode, but after opening the game again to check I've noticed there's no clear visual indicator to catch before entering the char select screen if you hit quick match and join someone else's game. It's included in the filters for custom search and lobby creation (I've also noted that it defaults to "all" in the search for custom which forces you to switch, but "normal" for hosting) but I can see that those restrictions don't exactly make it difficult for these trolls to prey upon new players. I would say the devs should have "normal" be the default for quick match as well, but I also think that disconnecting is an easy, morally unambiguous response, which at most results in them wasting however many seconds of your time it takes to restart the game.
@@HS_Gomikubi alright I'll give it another go. It's just that it was my very first online match and it really bummed me out that you can do that but I love kof so much and it's hard to find a way to play any of them online easily. I'll try not to let boss players ruin my time with the game again lol
I actually really like how SF5 implements comeback. The fact that V-Trigger is an install on many characters is already a good thing in my book. They gave new tools to players that are behind instead of just more damage. The fact that V-Trigger meter can also be used for V-Reversals makes the mechanic have even more interesting choices. I wouldn't mind if GG tied Burst to a reversal meter like SF5's V-Trigger meter. You only really need to use it when you're getting beat up anyways.
I don't like v-trigger because it feels like a lot of characters can only be fun when they're in it. A lot of movesets feel way more barebones in sfv than in past games cause the game is 100% balanced around the v-system
@@b.blobbentein5774 I think that's more of a character design problem in SFV, and not an actual mechanics problem.
@@b.blobbentein5774 I hear this take a lot in regards to SFV and I'm not sure I agree with it. VT is just a resource like super bar is (which also exists in SFV and allows for new combos/routes depending on character) and most characters in post SF2 SF games aren't doing anything super interesting until they have some sort of metered resource. Characters in SF4 aren't doing anything really cool until they have at least 2 bars for FADC, and aren't really cashing out hard without getting beaten up enough to have an Ultra. Even in a game like 3s, Urien is barely even a complete character until he has bar for Aegis. Alpha 2 also tends to have a pretty barebones and straightforward neutral game until characters get a bar for CC/AC/level 1's. SF characters across all games in the series tend to start with simplified versions of their kits that grow as the match progresses. SFV is really no different there imo.
@@theSHELFables Thats just street fighter in a nutshell . It is what it is
'I wouldn't mind if GG tied Burst to a reversal meter like SF5's V-Trigger meter'
Play BlazBlue
There is more to comeback mechanics than just casual appeal. Most importantly, it is needed to balance out snowballing mechanics. When a game only has snowball mechanics and no comeback mechanics, the match is already decided halfway through and everyone watching or participating in it is just waiting for the player who gained the upper hand to finish the other off.
sounds exactly like dota 2 current meta and it has been that way since jungle got nerfed.
V trigger from street fighter 5 and instinct from killer instinct are examples of really good comeback mechanics IMO
Unlocking new attacks that significantly change your character’s play style is way more interesting than getting one or two big “you win” buttons like in tekken 7 or just flat stat buffs from something like marvel or dragon ball fighterz
The main thing to take away from the video is, of course, "pee pee poo poo". Incredibly wise words.
(also I kinda like the comeback mechanic DBFZ has since it's a balance of your last character being pretty buffed, but they're your LAST character so no assists or anything of the sort)
He started linking where to get the games he's showing. Woah that's great Leon.
Love TBS cameo appearance. Lol
My big thing with comeback mechanics is the supposed "newness" people assume it is. Supers used to be comeback mechanics especially in snk games. You would get more meter for getting hit and they used to do more damage when you were low.
Street Fighter II: I'm gonna beat up this car real quick
Virtua Fighter Car: come at me
P4Arena has my fav comeback mechanic through Awakening. Getting that extra 50 meter and a new super to use was always fun. And since the universal DP cost health, you could feel smart by ending a combo with a DP to push yourself into awakening.
3:19-3:24 THAT WAS A GENIUS TRANSITION
The quality of your narration in these videos are fantastic. I don't play fighting games (though I do enjoy watching them), yet I'm really intrigued hearing all of the technical talk.
KOF's comeback system where you have only 3 bars of meter on your first character and 5 in your last seems to me like a good take on the concept. The last character has enough resources to do absurd damage, but the player still has to win neutral and perform the big combo to reap the rewards.
It's not a comback mechanic, it's more like compensation for losing a character.
Nice!
Harada added extra hp to each health bar. That extra 5 damage really evens things out. I’ve gotten exposed a lot
I made comment about this on Sajam's video about the same thing, but I think Hellfire works still because of its relation with the other systems in Guilty Gear. It's kind of underwhelming when you look at it in a vacuum, but I am pretty sure that Hellfire is meant to account for guts scaling and bursts and making sure that overdrives remain useful even later on in the match by having a little extra damage to counter the scaling that they would otherwise be subjected to. In a game where players have SOO many reversal tools in the form of RCing, Dead angles, and Bursts its important to provide some incentive to also attempt using overdrives to help even and otherwise bad situation.
another great video essay! keep them coming cause they have all been fantastic.
i love your videos man, im loving guilty gear because of you.
keep up the good work friend
KOF has a pretty good comeback mechanic that's in a lot of games in that the more characters you lose, the more potential bars of meter you gain. You go from a standard 3 when you have 1 character, to 4 when you have 2, to 5 when you have 3.
That's not a comeback mechanic
@@vandagylon2885 It 100% is. Getting access to new combo routes as well just being able to hold on to more meter until you need to use it makes any character more powerful. It's also what makes KoF's 3-on-3 format different from just playing the previously standard Team Battle modes a lot of fighters would include.
@@TrollANIMU it's more of a "we don't want you doing max damage combos" thing. And or is just compensation for losing a character.
@@vandagylon2885 "Compensation for losing a character" is definitely a comeback mechanic.
@@KuroNoTenno no.
3:21
Damn son. That's a powerful burn right there
Hey, I'm the I-no player in the video. Great games, man.
There's comeback mechanics, and then there's "if your LP is 1000 or lower you may draw as many "forbidden one" monsters from your deck or graveyard as you want, add them to your hand" mechanics
I really like how sc6 handles comeback mechanics. When you get really low on health you receive less damage from attacks that are already weak, which encourages the winning player to go for bigger stuff to finish them off, and when your opponent is at match point you get a free bar of meter. These don't inherently give the losing player a get out of jail free card at the end of the round, since the extra meter only applies once the next round starts and there's still a degree of decision making on what to use that meter for.
I feel like Heat Up in Blade Strangers (yeah this game exists and it's honestly not bad, despite being very simple) is a decent enough comeback mechanic. Basically when you reach low HP, you can start Heat Up, and it basically boosts your characters and makes them much faster, but it's limited in time, as seen by the meter gauge emptying. You can also use a part of that meter to do a super if you want.
I just discovered your channels not too long ago and man I’m hooked on these videos. As someone that only played Smash Bros and trying to get into more traditional fighters these have been interesting to watch.
Keep up the great work man.
The REALLY funny thing I absolutely LOVE about this video... is that you perfectly broke down comeback mechanics in a satisfying way and to really only highlight how much of a red herring they really are to this conversation. The thing this video highlights is less of "Why comeback mechanics are bad " and more of "Fighting games need to be fun at all levels" which is a fucking fantastic effect this video has. Because yeah comeback mechanics are a redundant idea (In a system made for skill vs skill it's simply contradictory and a is rather complimented by proper match making) to begin with and the conversation about them is even more so, so why are they here? And the answer to that is because a lot of fighting games need to offer fun things to do at all levels of play, and really isn't AT ALL about "new players can't get wins or do x things", and people I think get that confused all the time. Fighting games have complex mechanics because they're fun an interesting, not just because lol hardcore, it's about fun things to do, not really winning and that's what we should focus on when accommodating newer players, not "they can't win" cause yeah you verse someone better than you... of course you lost. If you fought someone your skill tho I'm very sure winning isn't necessarily the problem, but you wouldn't enjoy it anyways if it wasn't just... fun and even if the game wasn't technically complex or hard to pick up you'd still get messed up by people better than you. This video exposes all of this so perfectly and all by just thoroughly analyzing this topic. I'm not just blowin' smoke when I say this Leon... but this is easily one of the top video essays ever made for FG's, absolutely fantastic stuff
I think that ultimately, unfortunately, comeback mechanics are just another part of the game that you have to be mindful of at this point, even if they're implemented "poorly." At competitive level, I mean. X-Factor or Rage Arts are things you have to be aware of and play around, regardless of how robbery they are. And we're complaining about these things, because they're often unbalanced (whatever that means). Like, KoF's "less characters - more meter" could be considered a comeback mechanic, but nobody talks about that. KI's Instinct seems alright. V-Triggers are complained about only when it comes to certain characters (which... well, that's the whack balance, right?), and probably for a different reason anyway.
You know what I mean?
It must be really hard to design a mechanic that not only is easy to understand, but deep enough to feel like an actual integral part of the game. And be fun to engage with on every level. That's why we get things that might as well not be there, or are the defining point of the game.
I like what you said about (certain) comeback mechanics giving casuals this rush of "I did damage, feels good." That's very true and very important. And how it highlights that fighting games have this problem of assuming people will just git gud, but don't have a smooth learning curve.* Of course then it could create a problem where people won't learn shit and just "press button do damage." But that where "fighting games providing emotions comeback mechanics provide by alternative means" comes in. It's something I've seen a video about recently. It talked about how autocombos in DBFZ give the casual player an option they can always resort to. If you don't know any combos but get an opportunity, you can just mash a button and get a reward. And because you have to keep pressing that button, it keeps you engaged and gives you the feeling that you're actually doing something. And, because these combos aren't good (damage-wise, at least) it gives you the incentive to learn. It also helps that in general DBFZ is "simple," so learning combos isn't as painful as it could be in other games. And even if you make a mistake, you can always fall back on the autocombo.
*Sidenote: I don't think fighting games are inherently harder than other genres, but they're not as intuitive when it comes to knowing what to do to be better. And it's very easy to get stomped on without having much opportunity to actually play, which is very discouraging. And there's rarely fun any meta-game things like bars going up and giving you an item or some other stupid thing for even playing a match. Even if you lose 10 matches in a row, you're still gaining *something,* or at least working towards it.
anyway, good video
fuck rage arts
sorry for the wall of text
I feel like you forget that this comeback mechanic in tekken at least is like a cold war mechanic, as soon as your opponent is in the rage, you kinda start respecting your opponent more, creating the pace of the fight to be more tense.
Your "the first airdasher" video is probably one of my favorites to be honest.
Good video man using rubber band mechanics at the start was a good way to ease people into the idea of it.
This video was tight, and in my mind, the same calibre as jump arcs. Really excited to see what you work on in the future
I feel like their is a difference between comeback mechanics and mechanics that cause comebacks. Something like, say, Joker arsene tried to replicate something like A.B.A. in a simpler game, so it used damage received as a factor. It causes comebacks for making bad decisions, yes, but you could argue that Bursting is a comeback mechanic, since you are rewarded for taking damage.
...how are you rewarded for taking damage by bursting? You lose the opportunity for gold burst and the only thing you gain from bursting is reset to neutral, which could have been done by simply not taking damage to begin with. It's more like a "forgiveness" system where you can make one mistake and not just die, but even then burst can be baited and you can die for doing it.
Burst is never a comeback mechanic. Landing a burst while being hit never gave you any advantage
@@seokkyunhong8812 Not while getting hit, but you can use a gold burst to get meter.
The rage system in Tekken 7 is nowhere near as problematic in high level play as you make it sound. Its been mostly a non-factor since season 2 since the meta shifted to using attacks that don't trigger rage halfway into the round.
What a great thing to wake up to, my favorite fighting game RUclipsr!!
I only wish you'd upload these detailed vids just a bit more often because they're so damn good!
I really love this channel. Keep up the good work
I think the wall break system of Strive is an interesting idea for a comeback mechanic. Instead of advantaging the losing player it literally "evens" the playing field by putting both players back in the neutral. I'm looking forward to see how this will play out once the game comes out.
For me the most infamous comeback mechanic is always gonna be rage from Smash4, especially because of how it overwhelmingly benefited top tiers (specifically Bayo who was already overpowered) tldr: imagine a mechanic where if you’re not about to die you can’t kill and if you are about to die yo can kill at 0%
Tekken rage is similar, though not as egregious as Smash 4 rage.
I do appreciate how you present this video
Love your stuff mate. Keep it up
Gonna say my own thoughts here, I feel like I need those comeback mechanics, in games where you can lose a character in 2 touches, now you've gotta fight 2 or 3 characters as a solo character just because felt you like doing a dp 1 time. If I lost like only 3 interactions total, and that's the game decided, once I lost roundstart, that might as well be the round over. Also, comeback mechanic make new cool combos=fun for me. But, I'm a big unga bunga gorilla, of course I'm going have wrong opinions.
I really wasn't thinking about the first part you mentioned before reading the comment and you got a point, if in a team game you make let's say 4 mistakes and lose 2/3 characters you're gonna have a harder time killing 2 of your opponents characters even if they then make the same number of mistakes of the same severity as you made because you're usually not dealing all the damage in your combos with 1 character. So a comeback mechanic that would let you kill your opponent as if you weren't behind if used correctly makes sense, as long as you don't keep your advantage when you've gotten you've reduced your opponent to an 1v1.
Just play Frieza and get a disgusting 30%+ when he's alone and Golden :))
(Its a shame Frieza isn't very good cause this shit is disgusting)
You dont need them, you just depend on them too much & dont have a gameplan without it. If you make the right decisions & play off of your opponent you can comeback from good defense & punishment for their bad mistakes
@@mibbzx1493 Yeah but it's a hard uphill battle. In a game where, as they said, you make 2-3 mistakes and lose 2/3 characters, there should be some kind of buffer to at least help you. Otherwise you get games like Marvel 3 where you get touched once and that's at least 1 character gone, since there's no Burst mechanic of any kind. And the comeback mechanic that is present allows your opponent to wipe your whole team in 8 seconds. It's all about balance. That's basically what this video is about. Finding that perfect midway point between useless and broken comeback mechanics.
Fighterz' Sparking is X-factor done right imo
No it isn’t. The mechanics fit both games. DBFZ doesn’t have tod combo for the most part and absurdity that is zero lighting loop. corner pressure is absurd. The player needs to be rewarded way more in marvel for getting out than DBFZ.
Thanks again for a great and entertaining video
Love the vid man! keep up the great work.
This is rarely an issue in fighting games, but comeback mechanics might be necessary from competetive standpoint also. I don't think anyone would want their game end up like chess where you can tell you have no chance to win hours before the game actually ends, so only tension is if you can fuck with your opponent enough to get a draw.
Besides X-factor, if you lost to someone who used a comeback mechanic, you weren't robbed.
Loved seeing Trackmania here. Nice vid!
I think a great implementation of a comeback mechanic is BBCF's overdrive. The simple fact that it lasts longer the lower your health is, but it has to be activated and its resource is shared with the game's combo breaker makes it exciting and versatile, while also requiring thought and having counterplay.
Centralfiction's addition of the Exceed Accel also gives new players access to an easy to execute, invincible but low-damage attack to break out of disadvantage (that also tends to look cool as hell). That way the mechanic holds value both to competitors and casuals, while still having counterplay
I found rage arts super frustrating to deal with at first, but I appreciate that they make me play more carefully when my opponent is in rage. I can't just rush in and finish them off while they're still dangerous
Not rushing in due to having to be careful with your opponent is something that's compensated for by other mechanics already.
While I have barely played T7, I've played a fair amount of Virtua Fighter 5, a 3d game with no comeback mechanics but you can still ABSOLUTELY come back from with many things T7 already has: side step counters, reads, pressure, launchers, footsies, you have a lot to work with to come back when you're at 10% health and your opponent 80%, but it's on YOU to use those tools instead of some mechanic that effectively halves the winning players health just because he kicked your ass a little too hard.
A good comeback mechanic keeps the match competitive the entire time it's played.
A Bad comeback mechanic means a player can suck 75% of the match and win anyway.
Another day another great Leon Massey video
TBS cameo was great haha, great content as always Leon!
I know it took some cleaning up, but I think xfactor ended up in a perfectly fine position? At the end of the sequels life it was just a resource, that was often blown on the first solid connection as much as last character. Phoneix in the original was a problem that massively compounded the terrible feeling of OG xfactor, but they recovered from that nicely.
In a game as heavily offensive as MVC3, where "my opponent doesn't play after 2 mixups" having a "and then they touched me and killed my team" mechanic doesn't feel that out of place. So much of the game is frontloaded into getting that first touch (just like mvc2) that it never felt too awful to me.
Well that's the thing about X-Factor. While hated, it doesn't go against the core principles the series goes for... Chaotic, volatile but fun matches with minimal netual. X-Factor, for what it is, doesn't go against what MvC is all about. At worst, it's annoying as sin
id kill for a video on umvc3
Love your content!
Man you’ve blown up in the past 2 months, keep up the good work
10:15
Dude, I love you. This is something I've been saying for a while now, because no one mentions it despite the fact it's been the main problem for years now.
Everyone assumes new players don't stay because they find the games too difficult and overwhelming and because they get crushed online. But then these people return the games and go back to games that are just as hard if not more. In fact, people do things that are much more complex than fighting games all the time in their daily life. People seek out difficulty all the time.
The problem is that it's not fun to get into fighting games. The feelings that have kept veterans playing for so long are just not accessible for new players. You don't get combos as a new player. Instead, you get to throw out random buttons into the dark on a loop until either you or your opponent dies. You don't get many interesting interactions because you can't confidently use your motion input-bound special moves, which you barely understand the properties of. You can't even have fun moving around because while mobility in fighting games does create fresh interactions when combined with offensive and defensive options, it's still based on antiquated basics made to accomodate arcade control schemes and as a result, feels to the general public as if their character had a very fancy broom up their ass. No air control, no analog movement speed, nothing.
I think the truth of the matter is that traditional games will never be able to retain players until more esoteric titles come out and actually get people interested.
edit : This is poorly written but I just wanted to get it out of my system
Totally. It's not just a tutorial issue, it's a problem with explaining of getting new players to understand the appeal of a fighting game. Nebulous stuff like pressure or good movement doesn't have a visible reward a lot of the time even if you're doing it right. Even if you do poorly in an FPS for example you can still get dopamine points for getting the occasional kill. There's nothing like that in most fighting games, being a new player is downright disheartening because you won't know the appeal of anything but seeing a win screen until you practice and you won't want to practice because you don't get the appeal yet, kind of a catch 22.
@@BigBait12 People often mention lucky kills as a reason FPS can more easily satisfy unexperienced players than fighting games do, but I think it's more accurate and relevant to say that good FPS feel fun to control even when you're new and can't get a kill. Take any Source game and you'll see that movement has weight without feeling restrictive in the slightest, and that the guns are good enough that even shooting the walls feels good. Not every FPS is like this but the ones that aren't tend to be forgotten, because why the fuck would you want to master them?
(Because someone might mention it, there's also cases like arena FPS that can't retain or even interest players even though they all feel great. This is a different problem due to lack of variety and a learning process that's too linear, so I don't think it's worth relating to this topic)
I think one of the reasons why smash as a series for example has such high appeal is because it's enjoyable no matter what level you're at. There's absolutely no pressure to become good at the game and the casual player base has so much content to chew on that you can play the game for a long time without even once thinking of the game competitively. A lot of other fighting games could learn from this, we need better story modes that aren't just fighting cpus in order, we need mechanics that feel good to play with even if you don't master them, but depth for the people who want to take their competition to the next level. Fighting games are niche because they are only appealing to a niche, if that makes any sense.
It's hard to get this balance right without making an overly simple game, and the problem is no one is really making NEW fighting games, we're only getting games in established franchises because fighting games are selling to a niche playerbase who they know will buy and they make their prices for dlc and games high because they know that people who are knee deep in the genre or franchise will always buy in. So legacy mechanics will stick around forever because you don't want to ever risk alienating your oldschool players and driving away your core cash cows.
@Frax Oh yeah don't misunderstand, I'm not suggesting simplification necessarily, I'm suggesting better accessability. Make doing basic shit feel cool. Make story mode feel genuinely engaging beyond a string of matches against CPUs. Give the players things to work towards, that sort of thing. I don't want depth to be lost.
When Hisoutensoku has no comeback mechanic at all:
To be fair, does it really need one? Random cards seem like they would create a ton of variance and lots of opportunities for the losing player to get better card RNG. Not to mention weather.
@@technicolormischief-maker5683 It doesn't need one, I agree, but this video was all about how comeback mechanics are essential to a game, so...
Thumbnail hits harder after the recent Strive UI vid
new video day guess that means its time to rewatch every single one again :D
**talking about how easy it is to make a comeback in UMvC3 with resources**
**shows Vergil**
Yup
I think Undernight has a really cool way of promoting comebacks without forcing them. The universal GRD system rewards smart defensive play with a means to take back momentum. Its not any easier for the losing player to get GRD, its just always available so getting it on the backfoot helps you regain the lead just as much as the opponent getting it would help keep their lead.
Thats not a comeback system. By default comeback system is ONLY available to the losing side, not for the winning side. Thats just a bar mechanic not a COMEBACK mechanic
@@nomblob5592 GRD is not a comeback mechanic yes. But it allows for comebacks in a way that isnt heavy handed and doesn't reward bad play.
your channel is god tier and I'm excited to have been an early part of it
This channel needs to blow up ASAP
"Super Pilot" lookin a lot like F-Zero...
Just like rubber banding isn’t discussed when it’s implemented well, I’d argue that the best comeback mechanics are ones that aren’t even considered comeback mechanics: for example, gaining meter or (in GG) burst when you get hit
Yeah exactly, that balances the floor perfectly, and gives that chance to stay in the game, we don't need the extra nonsense.
I’ve been waiting for this
I saw whatcha did there
I got notified the minute this video got uploaded, but since i love eating while watching any good quality videos like yours I just wanted to like it before I Sleep and then watch it next day while eating.
In the end i watched the whole video after leaving a like.....oops?
DBFZ laughing since it would be a completely different thing without their comeback mechanics
Sorry, but the only comeback mechanic is limit break which only Z Broly can fully capitalize ony because he's busted. Apart from that there is none hence why the point war is so important there.
@@Nyagro Sparking is arguably a comeback mechanic, but as of recently it seems more like a defensive tool to keep your point character alive or to avoid a 50/50
@@Nyagro Don't forget that Sparking, a mode that also gives extra damage, double meter gain and a ton of solo mixup opportunities has vastly increased duration for your last character. Also its not just Z broly that can use limit break well. A ton of characters can easily take 80% off a single 2M because of it.
@@AvianZebra yea but, any if the two players can activate it for their last character so its balanced
@@Nyagro everyone benefits from LB. Passive damage increase helps everyone. Spark is also a comeback mechanic and we shouldn't act like it isn't
"cuuuuuum"
loved it, great video
Banger vid, thanks