The U.S. once had hundreds of small automakers that ultimately failed or were bought out by larger automakers. I don't expect the EV industry to develop differently.
Well said! Something like well over 1,000 auto companies have existed since the 1900s here in America alone. Only tesla and Ford have survived reaching mass production profitably, while never going bankrupt or accepting any gov bailouts. 😐
It's the same game. And the west isn't comfortable doing it, because they know that it is their car industry going out of business. Else the west was yelling "Free trade!" at the top of their lungs.
Your error in thinking is to believe that 4.6 billion Asia is equal to 300 million USA...and that the car market in Asia doesn't evolve any more...as it is fact for western Europe and the USA - they are filled. Also you dismiss how easy it is today to build BEVs compared to building ICEs back in the day in good ol' 'merica.
When competition it’s healthy the normal folks gets the benefit of extreme low prices! Who would complain about this? Oh that’s right all other competitors in the U.S. and the west and Japan and Korea….. Chinese people are so lucky to be able to purchase a great EV for like 11000 dollars!
Western companies complain as the overpricing of products can be seen. Western governments complain due to lower living costs being a bad thing for Western governments. Lower living costs is good for the people.
I would definitely suggest anybody test drive a BYD plug-in EV. It is actually an EV for all practical purposes and one does not need to worry about running out of battery because the gasoline takes over swiftly in that case. No panic in city traffic or while driving in the countryside.
With hybrids, you get none of the advantages of EV and all the disadvantages of ICE cars. For instance. ICE cars can have ten or in some cases up to twenty thousand moving parts. Ask yourself, why do EV manufacturers offer so insanely long warranties not just on batteries but the drive terrain and pretty much everything else? EV's have half a dozen moving parts with nothing to break and almost no maintenance or expensive out of warranty repairs. Hybrids are even more complex. Having said that, currently EV's make sense only for folks who can charge at home.
When can you call something "dumping"? You mentioned Amazon, they lost money for a decade, using investor money to undercut competitors until they won. Isn't that called dumping? Given enough investor money, wouldn't that work for any business?
I think dumping implies government action. I think that's what happened with Boeing vs Bombardier for the C-series jet. Canadian government was going to subsidize Delta's purchase 9f the jets.
@@nobodyli6543 do you mean they are selling products in europe for a third of what they sell them for in china, thats definitely dumping, chinese buyers are subsidising exports
@@debeeriz No, they sell in EU for much higher prices than in China. For example, a BYD Seal sells for $23K USD in China but about $45K USD in EU. Contrast with German cars where prices are lower in US or China than in Germany.
Li Automotive has been operating in the black for the last 2 quarters. Impressively, they do this with no subsidies. Li’s cars are priced beyond the category that receives subsidies.
Can you please provide some sort of support of this? Maybe a financial filing? Also you have to remember, its not only the companies themselves that receive subsidies, its also the supply chains. So whether Li received subsidies directly doesnt matter. They have benefited tremendously from a subsidies supply chain.
Uber is profitable and has been for several quarters. DoorDash is almost profitable. But DoorDash only went public in 2020 so still a relatively new company.
That's because demand for taxi service was grossly over estimated. The same way EVERY form of public transportation has over estimated demand. Getting rid of the driver won't fix the demand problem. Even if it was 20 cents a mile people still won't give up their car and use taxis. Cars are sometimes used for pre planned point to point trips but that's not all they are used for. You need to own a car for those other uses anyway so you can't just get rid of the expense and switch to taxi service.
The only reason BYD is profitable is the Chinese government is proping them up competition is good but when your being subsidized by a government that's not competition that's having the game rigged 😊
BMW is making profits selling EVs, you can verify it on their official last video for their investors. They gave all the datas there of course. They make a profit margin about 9 to 10% on EVs.
Sadly, the entire automotive industry has survived by taking huge government support payments while being huge energy and resource gluttons. Most of us don't even consider the tremendous cost to make a car(both before and after purchase). EVs are still still very inefficient(resource wise) to make, but the efficiency that current companies are slowly eliminating(especially over lifetime ownership) will make a huge difference. Legacy vehicles have always been money sinks. Anyone who tells you otherwise is pretending all the other costs and gifts from governments don't exist.
Just like a military war is funded by government, so too is China's economic warfare, and its conquest of the auto industry. USA & EU auto industry unfortunately will not survive this conquest unless their government match the financial backing to counter China's. Tariffs may not be enough.
just over a year ago i had ro go on a waiting list to get a byd . now i can pick one up tomorrow, either byd have managed to onight air freight from china or they have heaps of stock in house
So what you are saying is Chinese auto makers cannot make a profit in their own market. This looks like the Evergrande model. It's not strictly legal to continue to trade at a loss continually.
@@onememory6484 It's about the sustainability of the business model. If almost every Chinese automakers is losing money selling BEVs, it only means that many of them won't be around in a few years. And it will unfortunately impact customers because they won't be able to get upgrades, components, after-service, etc.
Are BYD's so called profits adjusted for all the subsidies? What if we adjust for all the subsidies both to BYD and its supply chain, are they still profitable? If they are profitable, why not break it out in their financial reporting like Ford and Polestar.
@@goldriverbank6647 Yes I know but they dont break out their EV segment to show sales, gross profit and net income etc. Please correct me if I am wrong. And if I am wrong, let me know what the gross margin and net margin are on their EV sales (excluding ICE and hybrid sales). Update: I checked, BYD only reports a segment called "Automobiles and related products, and other products" which includes EVs, ICE and hybrids. The EV segment is definitely material to their business so normal convention is that you show it separately like Ford does. I wonder why they dont break out EVs? 🤔
@@goldriverbank6647 Yes I know but they dont report their EV segment separately. They mix it in with their ICE and Hybrid cars too. Normally when a segment is material to the business (exceeds 10% of total revenue or profit) you report it separately in your financial filings. But BYD doesnt. I wonder why. 🤔
@@goldriverbank6647 Yes I know but they dont report their EV segment separately. They mix it in with their ICE and Hybrid cars too. Normally when a segment is material to the business (exceeds 10% of revenue or profit) you report it separately in your financial filings. But BYD doesnt. I wonder why. 🤔
@@goldriverbank6647 Yes I know but they dont report their EV segment separately. They mix it in with their ICE and Hybrid cars too. Normally when a segment is material to the business (exceeds 10% of revenue or profit) you report it separately in your financial filings. But BYD doesnt. I wonder why. 🤔 This post keep getting deleted 3 times now. What is going on!?
Your wording is not right, employees are not easily working so much OT. the system is forcing them, as currently job market is under very high pressure. If they had the chance they also would like stick common work hours.
But did byd make profit without the state subsidies? Depending where you check most sources say more than 2 billion in 2023. So they made a loss as profit was less than 2 billion?
You have had a go at Mercedes, Toyota and VW in the past for essentially deciding to either dump or down scale EV production for hybrids and redirecting their efforts at producing more efficient gasoline engines. They may want to save the planet but going out of business doing so is just plain stupid.
You are wrong. Li auto hybrid battery packs are above 42 kWh. There are many fully EVs with smaller batteries than that. To say that they aren't an EV company is crazy
Yeah yeah, a "chinese official says . . . . . .so what mister Tesla, nice bantering on everything non Tesla and BYD.. Stellantis made a 11 billion profit in 2023 of which 1.5 in the EU on EV's. With a grow in sales for the Fiat 500E, and the electric Opels Astra, Corsa en Mokka, Citroën ë-Berlingo and Jeep Avenger. That profit will grow even faster when the new released sub €25k Citroën ë-C3 versions start delivery to the customers in Q3 and 4 this year.
Because like any new complex product, the cost comes down rapidly with time, as innovations, reduction of R&D, and economies of scale kick in. Like computers did.
Not surprising, the Chinese market is undercutting each other to gain market share. Even Xiaomi's CEO openly said that their special opening prices were below cost hence its limited period. The various brands and companies will end up consolidating or be ejected Normally you see this more in the IT industry. Startups never having any profit is not uncommon, they basically live on investor money who are all counting them to be the market leader.
Well, there has to be a limit on how many cars you can sell at a loss. It looks like the majority of these Chinese EV companies will go bust at some stage. That'd be fun if you had bought one of their EV's and the spare parts supply dried up.
This is crazy Sam, I really don't know where you get your news from but Li Auto is one of the best sellers in Liaoning. They are everywhere. China right now is Japan during the 80s, carving a niche for itself on affordable EVs. Companies will eventually specialise in different markets (small cars, SUVs, sports etc.). Either way, no one else is doing what Chinese EV makers are doing at this scale, and India is a long long way away.
Japanese automakers were expanding market-share in North America by the 1970s, especially with high-gas prices from the Oil Crisis. In the 1980s, the export and trade imbalance became so large, it became a serious political/diplomatic issue.
@@yo2trader539 It was simple, Japan was offering cheaper, more reliable and more efficient cars than their US and European counterparts, they too were barely making any profits but they gained marketshare. China is doing this with EVs.
The issue with dumping from the government perspective isn't whether the competitors survive, it's the price customers have to pay when only the monopolistic company (or country) is the only one left.
Has that actually happened in real life? China has essentially won in the solar panel industry with 80% of the market, but panel prices are cheaper than ever.
@@celanian8188 Sure this has happened in the past; c.f. rare earth metals processing, not only did they control the market the CCP used it to "punish" countries they didn't approve of (mainly blocking exports affecting dependent countries / sectors).
@@TankEnMate From what I remember, other countries never actually had a Germanium and Gallium industry before. Of course a country which dominates a natural resource will use that resource as a weapon for diplomatic and political gains just as oil, iron ore, and other resources were used as weapons in the past. I'm talking about the more common idea of dumping where a country destroys another country's industry and then raises prices on that country due to monopolistic power. I don't actually see that happening since the other country can simply restart their industry if the dominant power raises prices willy nilly. If China raises prices on solar panels or steel, it's not that difficult for other countries to expand their solar panel production if necessary.
@@celanian8188 Germanium and Gallium are semi-conductors / metalloids, not rare earths. Their main use is in specialised electronics. Rare earths are also used in electronics but crucially also used in magnets. As to "restarting" their industry, your argument handwaves away capital costs and their incipient capital raising costs (both financial and non-financial). Building a car factory for example is a billion dollar enterprise. Even America would struggle to justify spending billions again and again every time someone dumped on them for a few years.
@@TankEnMate Can you point to an actual example of it happening? Even under the most optimistic circumstances, China won't have anything close to a monopoly on autos anytime soon. And if it does happen, it would only happen once since the US could simply reopen any closed factories and ensure they don't shut down again. A few billion in the US is nothing since many times that amount of money sloshes through the economy every year. When China does have monopolistic power over an industry such as solar panels, it's simply unfeasible for them to use it since it would rapidly ensure that they don't have monopolistic power after a couple of years at most.
As small businesses owner, I know it’s hard to rapidly grow even a profitable company, because growth requires lots of cash investment. How are all these Chinese companies investing and growing without profits ? What crazy bank or investor would hand piles of cash to such a company ?
Given the life cycle of an EV, every car sold at a loss reduces the market opportunities in the future. Many people will only ever buy one EV in their life.
You have missed the point in your closing remarks. The "loss leader" strategy is almost as old as business. What is different in China is that the Chinese government is supporting companies through that phase for as long as they want in order to secure a near monopoly for Chinese companies and that is as anti-competitive as it gets. How many car companies in Australia are making a profit because of government subsidies? None. Australia doesn't have a car manufacturing industry because its government (rightly) decided that the industry needed to succeed or fail on its merits. The opposite of China.
Carmakers try to sell fewer cars...? Really? But the loss is from the whole project not each auto. ❤ So why try to get less money back for the sunk expenses? Can someone add to this or explain...?
I must give it to the Chinese!! They are certainly making good cars for old Mini money!! And I mean a Mini made before 1990!! And certainly made before BMW took over the marque!!
I know that Tesla makes great cars, but Vauxhall makes great multi purpose vehicles and vans!! My next car, which is being delivered on Monday morning, is a Vauxhall Combo Life Electric with Wheelhome Vikenze III conversion.
Please show support for this in the form of official financial filings. If not, I call your bluff. Happy to be proven wrong but I doubt I will be this time either.
oh well the government try to build a new market and is willing to spend huge amounts of money for it. They trade long term sustainability over short to medium term of profits. Time will tell if their gambling pay off.
They are not helping sustainability efforts since they are damaging the global auto market by artificially keeping dead car companies alive and in the meantime wasting tremendous amounts of energy and resources building these cars that they cant sell in the Chinese market and hence are forced to export to countries that dont want them either and hence we see more and more countries putting in tariffs.
Thanks for admitting that the Chinese government is actively supporting the production of cheap EVs. So wonder no more as to why the USA & EU impose stiff import duties!
Thats the main reason they dont make money. Why try? when money comes in anyway. Subsidy is code for more of the whats being subsidized. That includes work ethic, subpar products, poor management. Thats why giving money to lazy kids and people never truly helps.
I highly doubt BYD is making money on their EVS. If you were to take away the money they get from the Chinese government and all the stages. That is information that is hard to get, but just a logical conclusion. China wants to be seen as the leader, so they want a company that is seen as the leader and makes a profit on EVs. They have many ways to do that. BYD has some sweet cars for the price either way, as do many other companies.
You can have robust free cash flow leaving plenty to invest yet still lose money indefinitely while accruing future tax credits (called tax loss carry forward) thus ensuring future losses for tax purposes while actually making money. There are other sophisticated means of losing money while making money. I suggest amateur corporate financial analysts think a bit more creatively or work in the field. Corporations do not function like a child's piggy bank.
That's how capital intensive manufacturing starts. You need volume in parts to decrease pricing and volume sales to overcome costs of pop production before you turn a profit. Could take months or years. This is what subsidies were originally created for. Helping business to get started and become self sustaining
China subsidy is only 11%, US and EU subsidy are around 28-34%, so to claim they are dumping or subsidize is just a joke. especially when chinese companies are building factories overseas.
What happens to the Chinese economy when all these companies go bust? How much money that was tied up in these factories totally evaporates? This could be really bad for the CCP to allow to continue. I would recommend forced consolidation.
….dont forget the Chinese construction industry is also in dire straits right now. I watched a video earlier today where it was saying lots of sectors in China have either cut wages or not paid workers for past few months. Not sure how true this is, but from other videos I’ve watched in the past, the local governments have been raising money by selling rights to land off to developers, and if that’s dried up, the regional governments could be low on funds, resulting in unpaid workers in hospitals and schools etc.
What happens to world if we don’t address AGW - perhaps on a "war footing"? China did that, wants to make export dollars, but EU & US fossil own their regulators, governments.
@@goldriverbank6647 Agreed! There is going to be massive changes to the world economy with the introduction of AI based services and self driving vehicles. Incumbents will collapse and new business models based on the new tech will arise to replace and surpass the old incumbents. Nothing this large has happened since the beginning of the automobile age. Guess every 100 years or so we are due massive change.
@@goldriverbank6647 The US economy has its problems but its in order of magnitude better shape than the Chinese economy. The Chinese economy is a house of cards.
By selling land fill to western countries (that is what most of the trash they sell ends up in short time). The EVs they subsidize do not need to make a profit.
If the companies are not making a profit, they are selling their cars artificially cheap, creating an artificial demand. I wonder how much real demand there would be if EV’s are sold for the price they should be sold at where the company makes a healthy profit. My guess is almost 0.
Same for ICE cars if they paid price of wrecking the atmosphere, the climate? Capitalism does fail in this regard. It’s known as unpriced externalities. Look it up.
Add to that in China there are significant registration fees for non-EV cars so for normal people, you are almost forced to buy EVs. Thats why we see that 50% or whatever the number is now of sold cars are EVs because most people dont have a choice. What China is doing now is pure planned economy without thinking about demand and supply. This is why we see more and more countries putting in tariffs against China.
Tesla is highly profitable even without subsidies. And they sold 1.8M EV last year, 2023 and sold 1.3M EV 2022. Already sold 6M EV accumulatively.... you're ignorance.
Sounds like … breaking into a protected market (cars) with a new technology (electric) to address a known problem (global warming). Apart from Tesla, the industry resists change, resists fixing the problem they caused. Auto is a toxic mess.
@@smefour yes, and that’s for balance of trade. (BOT). China actually has positive BOT with most countries. I think maybe they are trying to achieve efficiency of scale in a high value industry, vs say textiles.
And you have more information than the Chinese officials? What is your support that these two make money? I am seriously curious so please provide link.
@@Bemx2k Ok, please point me to something that shows that. Like an official financial filing or something. Its not that I dont believe you, but I would like to verify it. Or are you talking about profit in general and not specifically on their EVs?
I originally speculated that BYD would be the first vendor to adapt Tesla's FSD! Little did I know that another Chinese auto manufacturer has beat all others to the punch, Xpeng! They have already stolen Tesla FSD Tech,as a former Tesla employee resigned from Tesla & stoled a copy of FSD & gave it to Xpeng!
Another thing might be that this "loss" is partially due to one time expenses. They might be able to sell those cars at a profit once the research and factory are paid for.
@@grantbuttenshaw It blocks us from posting links. But here is a quote. Of note, 28.1% is the margin from their automotive business (not including their low-margin electronics divisiom). "BYD delivered a decent performance in the first quarter. Although the revenue was slightly lower than market expectations, the highlight was the gross profit margin in the car manufacturing sector this quarter. The market originally expected the gross profit margin of the automotive business (including batteries) to decrease from 25.1% in the previous quarter to 20.5% this quarter due to the price reduction of the Honor version. However, surprisingly, the gross profit margin of the automotive business (including batteries) this quarter almost reached a historical high of 28.1%! This gross profit margin level in the car manufacturing business is far ahead of domestic competitors, even with a car selling price of only around 140,000 yuan."
@@grantbuttenshaw From Investors Business Daily: "BYD Earnings BYD earnings had been booming, but have slowed amid heavier discounts. Q1 net income grew 10% vs. a year earlier in local currency, while revenue rose 4%. Both were slightly below views. Despite big price cuts and discounts, BYD offset that due to lower battery costs and other savings. R&D costs swelled 70% vs. a year earlier. Gross margins rose to a record 21.9% from 21.2% in Q4 and 17.9% a year earlier. BYD Auto margins hit 28.1%. With sales ramping up, gross margins are likely to rise in the coming quarters."
That's a very naive statement by you on what is being said. First many of them have diverse businesses so the EV section which is NEW ands required huge investment in facilities and infrastructure was always going to have a bedding in period. Brands like Nio and others are building their output capacity and tech, but what you are missing out on is that most if not all of them are hugely supported by other areas of their business and not in any way close to risk. They have the money in their businesses and the personal wealth to spend. Factoring profit is accounting for the expenditure, that expenditure will vastly decrease and profits will vastly rise, that is what they are doing here. Why do you think hugely successful phone brands are moving into EVs? Do you think it is just random madness? No, they are rich, they understand how to invest and diversify and unlike Western companies a Phone or Computer company i China is quite happy to diversify into other areas. Its smart business by these companies, painting it otherwise is a lack of Western understanding of how Chinese players operate.
You're a grown up man - why are such harmless things scary to you? Or do you use the term scary as randomly as US Americans use the term "I love you" rendering it meaningless by doing that?
@Viking, to compare Amazon and Chinese EV companies is a bit disingenuous. Amazon didnt get subsidies from the US government to stay alive. Investors were willing to put up the money. In China, the EV industry and many others, get money or other benefits from the government. Two very different situations. If you are to make comparisons, at least try to make apples to apples comparisons. You really need to try to be more unbiased in your reporting.
Back in the day, they kinda did. Internet companies didn’t have to pay VAT like physical shops did. That’s a large reason why the prices were so cheap. And Congress allowed it. Actually I don’t even know if that’s changed, I don’t use Amazon.
@@TheBooban There is a huge difference between what is happening in China. EU concluded in their investigation that Chinese EVs (including their supply chains) have received more than $250bn in subsidies in the last 10 years. Amazon has never received anything near that. Also, Chinese EVs receive benefits whether they sell a car or not, the example you give about Amazon and VAT means Amazon only benefits if they actually sell something. In other words, Chinese government is keeping a bunch of EV companies alive in China year after year but Amazon would have gone bankrupt if they didnt sell anything. So the two benefits differ substantially both in magnitude and in the way they benefited the company in question.
@@PelleGIT Didn't both Ford and GM receive billions in bailouts over the last decade?, and they're late to the EV transition (now given up) because of the oil lobby?.
The U.S. once had hundreds of small automakers that ultimately failed or were bought out by larger automakers. I don't expect the EV industry to develop differently.
Well said! Something like well over 1,000 auto companies have existed since the 1900s here in America alone.
Only tesla and Ford have survived reaching mass production profitably, while never going bankrupt or accepting any gov bailouts. 😐
It's the same game.
And the west isn't comfortable doing it, because they know that it is their car industry going out of business.
Else the west was yelling "Free trade!" at the top of their lungs.
Your error in thinking is to believe that 4.6 billion Asia is equal to 300 million USA...and that the car market in Asia doesn't evolve any more...as it is fact for western Europe and the USA - they are filled.
Also you dismiss how easy it is today to build BEVs compared to building ICEs back in the day in good ol' 'merica.
You really must learn what consolidation is.
@@TriforCeair I described what consolidation is.
Only 1 ev maker in America is making money too 😂😂😂😂😂😂
Let me guess: Fisker. 🤣🤣🤣
Or rivian or canoo…..
But the competition is coming... lol
That's because of USA govt subsidies and bans on Chinese EVs
America hands out bailout money.
When competition it’s healthy the normal folks gets the benefit of extreme low prices! Who would complain about this? Oh that’s right all other competitors in the U.S. and the west and Japan and Korea….. Chinese people are so lucky to be able to purchase a great EV for like 11000 dollars!
Bad luck being stuck with an EV.
@@markmiller8903 yea in America ….
Western companies complain as the overpricing of products can be seen.
Western governments complain due to lower living costs being a bad thing for Western governments.
Lower living costs is good for the people.
I would definitely suggest anybody test drive a BYD plug-in EV. It is actually an EV for all practical purposes and one does not need to worry about running out of battery because the gasoline takes over swiftly in that case. No panic in city traffic or while driving in the countryside.
I have a BYD Tang PHEV. I love my car! It's awesome.
@@thomasholm4338Wait do they differ since Chinese versions I heard burn a lot and most BYD cars exported don’t so do they have a difference?
With hybrids, you get none of the advantages of EV and all the disadvantages of ICE cars. For instance. ICE cars can have ten or in some cases up to twenty thousand moving parts. Ask yourself, why do EV manufacturers offer so insanely long warranties not just on batteries but the drive terrain and pretty much everything else? EV's have half a dozen moving parts with nothing to break and almost no maintenance or expensive out of warranty repairs. Hybrids are even more complex. Having said that, currently EV's make sense only for folks who can charge at home.
When can you call something "dumping"? You mentioned Amazon, they lost money for a decade, using investor money to undercut competitors until they won. Isn't that called dumping? Given enough investor money, wouldn't that work for any business?
I think dumping implies government action. I think that's what happened with Boeing vs Bombardier for the C-series jet. Canadian government was going to subsidize Delta's purchase 9f the jets.
dumping is when you sell a product cheaper oseas than you sell it locally
@@debeeriz what about selling at 3 times the price? EU claims china dumping EV .... 3 times the price compare to local
@@nobodyli6543 do you mean they are selling products in europe for a third of what they sell them for in china, thats definitely dumping, chinese buyers are subsidising exports
@@debeeriz No, they sell in EU for much higher prices than in China. For example, a BYD Seal sells for $23K USD in China but about $45K USD in EU. Contrast with German cars where prices are lower in US or China than in Germany.
Only byd and Tesla make profits. But we've known that for 2 years at least
This is not surprising. Tesla lost money hand over fist for almost a decade. No reason to think the Chinese EV makers would be different.
This just shows that there will be a inevitable consolidation in the market and only very few EV manufacturers will survive.
BYD may or may not be making money now but they sure are expanding.
Yuan not yen. Or in an Aussie accent 'Uwaahn' or you can just say Renmenbi (RMB).
Chinese say "yuan" more like 'yen'. The Japanese "yen" is pronounced 'en' in Japan.
Li Automotive has been operating in the black for the last 2 quarters. Impressively, they do this with no subsidies. Li’s cars are priced beyond the category that receives subsidies.
Can you please provide some sort of support of this? Maybe a financial filing? Also you have to remember, its not only the companies themselves that receive subsidies, its also the supply chains. So whether Li received subsidies directly doesnt matter. They have benefited tremendously from a subsidies supply chain.
Uber and Doordash haven't made any profit over a decade.
Uber is profitable and has been for several quarters. DoorDash is almost profitable. But DoorDash only went public in 2020 so still a relatively new company.
That's because demand for taxi service was grossly over estimated. The same way EVERY form of public transportation has over estimated demand. Getting rid of the driver won't fix the demand problem. Even if it was 20 cents a mile people still won't give up their car and use taxis. Cars are sometimes used for pre planned point to point trips but that's not all they are used for. You need to own a car for those other uses anyway so you can't just get rid of the expense and switch to taxi service.
@@PelleGIT
depends on how you look at it Uber net income
Was 1.89 billion in 2023
But it lost 9.14 billion in 2022
Same as the US. Tesla is the only brand making a profit with EV.
the chinese companies are paid by the ccp to make cars
Tesla will be bankrupt in a year.
The only reason BYD is profitable is the Chinese government is proping them up competition is good but when your being subsidized by a government that's not competition that's having the game rigged 😊
BMW is making profits selling EVs, you can verify it on their official last video for their investors.
They gave all the datas there of course. They make a profit margin about 9 to 10% on EVs.
Thanks mate for making this video that I can still play after the closing the RUclips app ❤
Sadly, the entire automotive industry has survived by taking huge government support payments while being huge energy and resource gluttons. Most of us don't even consider the tremendous cost to make a car(both before and after purchase). EVs are still still very inefficient(resource wise) to make, but the efficiency that current companies are slowly eliminating(especially over lifetime ownership) will make a huge difference. Legacy vehicles have always been money sinks. Anyone who tells you otherwise is pretending all the other costs and gifts from governments don't exist.
Just like a military war is funded by government, so too is China's economic warfare, and its conquest of the auto industry. USA & EU auto industry unfortunately will not survive this conquest unless their government match the financial backing to counter China's. Tariffs may not be enough.
你知道现在的中国先进工厂是如何制造汽车的吗？你知道汽车的各种原材料价格吗？随着今年电池材料价格爆跌，电动汽车的利润会大增！只要坚持长期主义，随着主要成本电池材料的下跌和规模化大量生产，电动汽车制造商的利润最终会回来！并不是美国政府和欧盟含血喷人的中国政府巨额补贴起到关键作用！值得一提的是中国电动出租车已经在深圳运营超过十年！实际上电动汽车的使用寿命和汽油车相当，当然也有很大不同，电池会衰退，这是消费者唯一需要了解清楚的重大问题！在电动汽车方面中国可能比全世界领先两个世代，在世界其他国家还没有普及电动汽车的时候，而中国今年已经开始大规模投放无人驾驶出租车。因为腐败懒惰的美国政府和欧洲只能无耻地控诉中国政府种族灭族和产能过剩！唯一值得西方“控诉”的是中国的失业问题，因为工厂是无人，出租车是无人的，大农场也是无人机在管理！
just over a year ago i had ro go on a waiting list to get a byd . now i can pick one up tomorrow, either byd have managed to onight air freight from china or they have heaps of stock in house
Over 200,000 Chevrolet Bolts sold.
Seems like a pretty good demand.
My 23 bolt rocks!
Crap cars
@@Joemoa ok buddy.
What pos are you driving?
Jealous hater or just ignorant?
@@Joemoasays you, I’ve test driven one and it was great, especially for the price.
Does this change your opinion on import tariffs?
BYD importer in Australia is undoing all the hard work by pricing the car more than it needs to be.
So what you are saying is Chinese auto makers cannot make a profit in their own market. This looks like the Evergrande model. It's not strictly legal to continue to trade at a loss continually.
what drugs are you on to make random ass connections like that
@@onememory6484 It's about the sustainability of the business model. If almost every Chinese automakers is losing money selling BEVs, it only means that many of them won't be around in a few years. And it will unfortunately impact customers because they won't be able to get upgrades, components, after-service, etc.
Amazon dident make a single peny of profit in like 20 years.
Leapmotor makes money too
Are BYD's so called profits adjusted for all the subsidies? What if we adjust for all the subsidies both to BYD and its supply chain, are they still profitable? If they are profitable, why not break it out in their financial reporting like Ford and Polestar.
BYD is listed on NY stock exchange.
@@goldriverbank6647 Yes I know but they dont break out their EV segment to show sales, gross profit and net income etc. Please correct me if I am wrong. And if I am wrong, let me know what the gross margin and net margin are on their EV sales (excluding ICE and hybrid sales).
Update: I checked, BYD only reports a segment called "Automobiles and related products, and other products" which includes EVs, ICE and hybrids. The EV segment is definitely material to their business so normal convention is that you show it separately like Ford does. I wonder why they dont break out EVs? 🤔
@@goldriverbank6647 Yes I know but they dont report their EV segment separately. They mix it in with their ICE and Hybrid cars too. Normally when a segment is material to the business (exceeds 10% of total revenue or profit) you report it separately in your financial filings. But BYD doesnt. I wonder why. 🤔
@@goldriverbank6647 Yes I know but they dont report their EV segment separately. They mix it in with their ICE and Hybrid cars too. Normally when a segment is material to the business (exceeds 10% of revenue or profit) you report it separately in your financial filings. But BYD doesnt. I wonder why. 🤔
@@goldriverbank6647 Yes I know but they dont report their EV segment separately. They mix it in with their ICE and Hybrid cars too. Normally when a segment is material to the business (exceeds 10% of revenue or profit) you report it separately in your financial filings. But BYD doesnt. I wonder why. 🤔 This post keep getting deleted 3 times now. What is going on!?
Your wording is not right, employees are not easily working so much OT. the system is forcing them, as currently job market is under very high pressure. If they had the chance they also would like stick common work hours.
But did byd make profit without the state subsidies? Depending where you check most sources say more than 2 billion in 2023. So they made a loss as profit was less than 2 billion?
Why not
You have had a go at Mercedes, Toyota and VW in the past for essentially deciding to either dump or down scale EV production for hybrids and redirecting their efforts at producing more efficient gasoline engines. They may want to save the planet but going out of business doing so is just plain stupid.
Only 1 car company in the world is making money from selling EVs
That is Tesla
Hyundai
@@yootoobvyooer I doubt it. Where are you seeing that?
And that’s bmw ladies and gent
You are wrong. Li auto hybrid battery packs are above 42 kWh. There are many fully EVs with smaller batteries than that. To say that they aren't an EV company is crazy
Yeah yeah, a "chinese official says . . . . . .so what mister Tesla, nice bantering on everything non Tesla and BYD..
Stellantis made a 11 billion profit in 2023 of which 1.5 in the EU on EV's.
With a grow in sales for the Fiat 500E, and the electric Opels Astra, Corsa en Mokka, Citroën ë-Berlingo and Jeep Avenger.
That profit will grow even faster when the new released sub €25k Citroën ë-C3 versions start delivery to the customers in Q3 and 4 this year.
Stellantis will lose money on every Citroen EV they produce. But maybe they'll make it up on volume.
So if only one company is making any profit how is the ev business good for any of us? You can’t use other people’s money forever 😢
This is how industries are born. Wait a few years, most of the brands will be gone, but those that survive will dominate the world.
That's what the carriage makers said about the automobile manufacturers
Because like any new complex product, the cost comes down rapidly with time, as innovations, reduction of R&D, and economies of scale kick in. Like computers did.
Not surprising, the Chinese market is undercutting each other to gain market share. Even Xiaomi's CEO openly said that their special opening prices were below cost hence its limited period. The various brands and companies will end up consolidating or be ejected
Normally you see this more in the IT industry. Startups never having any profit is not uncommon, they basically live on investor money who are all counting them to be the market leader.
Well, there has to be a limit on how many cars you can sell at a loss. It looks like the majority of these Chinese EV companies will go bust at some stage. That'd be fun if you had bought one of their EV's and the spare parts supply dried up.
This is crazy, but it's good news for the consumers
Lithium prices need to go down significantly.
This is crazy Sam, I really don't know where you get your news from but Li Auto is one of the best sellers in Liaoning. They are everywhere. China right now is Japan during the 80s, carving a niche for itself on affordable EVs. Companies will eventually specialise in different markets (small cars, SUVs, sports etc.). Either way, no one else is doing what Chinese EV makers are doing at this scale, and India is a long long way away.
Japanese automakers were expanding market-share in North America by the 1970s, especially with high-gas prices from the Oil Crisis. In the 1980s, the export and trade imbalance became so large, it became a serious political/diplomatic issue.
@@yo2trader539 It was simple, Japan was offering cheaper, more reliable and more efficient cars than their US and European counterparts, they too were barely making any profits but they gained marketshare. China is doing this with EVs.
The issue with dumping from the government perspective isn't whether the competitors survive, it's the price customers have to pay when only the monopolistic company (or country) is the only one left.
Has that actually happened in real life? China has essentially won in the solar panel industry with 80% of the market, but panel prices are cheaper than ever.
@@celanian8188 Sure this has happened in the past; c.f. rare earth metals processing, not only did they control the market the CCP used it to "punish" countries they didn't approve of (mainly blocking exports affecting dependent countries / sectors).
@@TankEnMate From what I remember, other countries never actually had a Germanium and Gallium industry before. Of course a country which dominates a natural resource will use that resource as a weapon for diplomatic and political gains just as oil, iron ore, and other resources were used as weapons in the past.
I'm talking about the more common idea of dumping where a country destroys another country's industry and then raises prices on that country due to monopolistic power. I don't actually see that happening since the other country can simply restart their industry if the dominant power raises prices willy nilly. If China raises prices on solar panels or steel, it's not that difficult for other countries to expand their solar panel production if necessary.
@@celanian8188 Germanium and Gallium are semi-conductors / metalloids, not rare earths. Their main use is in specialised electronics. Rare earths are also used in electronics but crucially also used in magnets.
As to "restarting" their industry, your argument handwaves away capital costs and their incipient capital raising costs (both financial and non-financial). Building a car factory for example is a billion dollar enterprise. Even America would struggle to justify spending billions again and again every time someone dumped on them for a few years.
@@TankEnMate Can you point to an actual example of it happening? Even under the most optimistic circumstances, China won't have anything close to a monopoly on autos anytime soon. And if it does happen, it would only happen once since the US could simply reopen any closed factories and ensure they don't shut down again. A few billion in the US is nothing since many times that amount of money sloshes through the economy every year.
When China does have monopolistic power over an industry such as solar panels, it's simply unfeasible for them to use it since it would rapidly ensure that they don't have monopolistic power after a couple of years at most.
If it is a plugin series hybrid with a battery over 20 kWh, that makes it a EREV to me.
As small businesses owner, I know it’s hard to rapidly grow even a profitable company, because growth requires lots of cash investment. How are all these Chinese companies investing and growing without profits ? What crazy bank or investor would hand piles of cash to such a company ?
venture capital... alot of the money come from Chinese IT companies looking to places to park their money.
Why does legacy auto still use old ways to make things? They could use moderns tech in all their vehicles
Given the life cycle of an EV, every car sold at a loss reduces the market opportunities in the future. Many people will only ever buy one EV in their life.
You have missed the point in your closing remarks. The "loss leader" strategy is almost as old as business. What is different in China is that the Chinese government is supporting companies through that phase for as long as they want in order to secure a near monopoly for Chinese companies and that is as anti-competitive as it gets. How many car companies in Australia are making a profit because of government subsidies? None. Australia doesn't have a car manufacturing industry because its government (rightly) decided that the industry needed to succeed or fail on its merits. The opposite of China.
Very interesting. Thanks for the thought.
Carmakers try to sell fewer cars...? Really? But the loss is from the whole project not each auto. ❤ So why try to get less money back for the sunk expenses? Can someone add to this or explain...?
Meaning, only Tesla and BYD will continue with EVs. All the other Chinese manufacturers will go out of business. Buy a Tesla is the simple answer.
I thought Volvo made a profit selling EVs too?
they need volume to make money. it's the same for hybrids and ICE cars. the auto business is a volume business.
Are you saying that Tesla doesn’t make a profit selling their Chinese made Teslas to the Chinese public?
Weren't volvo making money now on their evs??
It's good to see the increase in BYD dividends. Let's hope the pattern continues so it becomes an income stock in the long run.
I must give it to the Chinese!! They are certainly making good cars for old Mini money!! And I mean a Mini made before 1990!! And certainly made before BMW took over the marque!!
👍👍
That's business.i have a small 1 man show business.first 3 years min wage would've dubbled my profits.took 3/4 decade 2 get over that hump
Just wait till tesla pays off all there stuff.there stocks will rocket
Will BYD survive it's warranty phase
I mean BYD EV Taxi have been used in Shenzhen and Xian for more than a decade now and they are still running strong
深圳BYD出租车跑80万公里的普通水平，100万公里的也不稀奇。
@@but_at_what_cost & safety standards, air bags that work, software issues, poor control braking, ...etc
Everything that's important kind of stuff
Trump won't allow Chinese cars into US market. Need to protect american car industry and workers.
The people that control Biden are making those decisions at present.
I know that Tesla makes great cars, but Vauxhall makes great multi purpose vehicles and vans!! My next car, which is being delivered on Monday morning, is a Vauxhall Combo Life Electric with Wheelhome Vikenze III conversion.
Not true. Li Auto is profitable. AITO is profitable
Please show support for this in the form of official financial filings. If not, I call your bluff. Happy to be proven wrong but I doubt I will be this time either.
1:40 only 1 ev maker in china made a profit selling ev. Tesla and byd. Lol isnt that two?
oh well the government try to build a new market and is willing to spend huge amounts of money for it. They trade long term sustainability over short to medium term of profits. Time will tell if their gambling pay off.
They are not helping sustainability efforts since they are damaging the global auto market by artificially keeping dead car companies alive and in the meantime wasting tremendous amounts of energy and resources building these cars that they cant sell in the Chinese market and hence are forced to export to countries that dont want them either and hence we see more and more countries putting in tariffs.
You don't have to be insane to buy inferior products. You just have to be an average person with an ego.
So what you're telling us is that, apart from Tesla and Byd, all manufacturers are either saved by self-driving cars or are future Fiskers.
Self-driving cars is probably a fool's errand.
Cheaper to build grade-separated automated trains (that technology has existed for decades).
😂Tesla's competition is coming All over them self 😂
Thanks for admitting that the Chinese government is actively supporting the production of cheap EVs.
So wonder no more as to why the USA & EU impose stiff import duties!
Thats the main reason they dont make money. Why try? when money comes in anyway. Subsidy is code for more of the whats being subsidized. That includes work ethic, subpar products, poor management. Thats why giving money to lazy kids and people never truly helps.
I highly doubt BYD is making money on their EVS. If you were to take away the money they get from the Chinese government and all the stages. That is information that is hard to get, but just a logical conclusion. China wants to be seen as the leader, so they want a company that is seen as the leader and makes a profit on EVs. They have many ways to do that. BYD has some sweet cars for the price either way, as do many other companies.
You can have robust free cash flow leaving plenty to invest yet still lose money indefinitely while accruing future tax credits (called tax loss carry forward) thus ensuring future losses for tax purposes while actually making money. There are other sophisticated means of losing money while making money. I suggest amateur corporate financial analysts think a bit more creatively or work in the field. Corporations do not function like a child's piggy bank.
Selling cars at no profit is brilliant according to Sam rofl
That's how capital intensive manufacturing starts. You need volume in parts to decrease pricing and volume sales to overcome costs of pop production before you turn a profit. Could take months or years. This is what subsidies were originally created for. Helping business to get started and become self sustaining
The problem with subsidies - some companies are created just to get the subsidies. This is why dumping claims have some merit.
China subsidy is only 11%, US and EU subsidy are around 28-34%, so to claim they are dumping or subsidize is just a joke. especially when chinese companies are building factories overseas.
What happens to the Chinese economy when all these companies go bust? How much money that was tied up in these factories totally evaporates? This could be really bad for the CCP to allow to continue. I would recommend forced consolidation.
….dont forget the Chinese construction industry is also in dire straits right now.
I watched a video earlier today where it was saying lots of sectors in China have either cut wages or not paid workers for past few months. Not sure how true this is, but from other videos I’ve watched in the past, the local governments have been raising money by selling rights to land off to developers, and if that’s dried up, the regional governments could be low on funds, resulting in unpaid workers in hospitals and schools etc.
What happens to world if we don’t address AGW - perhaps on a "war footing"?
China did that, wants to make export dollars, but EU & US fossil own their regulators, governments.
Worry about your US economy first.😅
@@goldriverbank6647 Agreed! There is going to be massive changes to the world economy with the introduction of AI based services and self driving vehicles. Incumbents will collapse and new business models based on the new tech will arise to replace and surpass the old incumbents.
Nothing this large has happened since the beginning of the automobile age. Guess every 100 years or so we are due massive change.
@@goldriverbank6647 The US economy has its problems but its in order of magnitude better shape than the Chinese economy. The Chinese economy is a house of cards.
porrs sounds empty
The only company making a profit is being subsidies by the Chinese government? How is it making a profit?
By selling land fill to western countries (that is what most of the trash they sell ends up in short time). The EVs they subsidize do not need to make a profit.
Yanks cannot ever come close to BYD EVER..............?
You don’t know anything about Nio . Mr Fake viking
Blue sky coming 😘
If the companies are not making a profit, they are selling their cars artificially cheap, creating an artificial demand. I wonder how much real demand there would be if EV’s are sold for the price they should be sold at where the company makes a healthy profit. My guess is almost 0.
Same for ICE cars if they paid price of wrecking the atmosphere, the climate?
Capitalism does fail in this regard.
It’s known as unpriced externalities.
Look it up.
Profit is delayed for those who survive.
The road of car history is littered with bankrupt car companies.
Add to that in China there are significant registration fees for non-EV cars so for normal people, you are almost forced to buy EVs. Thats why we see that 50% or whatever the number is now of sold cars are EVs because most people dont have a choice. What China is doing now is pure planned economy without thinking about demand and supply. This is why we see more and more countries putting in tariffs against China.
Tesla is highly profitable even without subsidies. And they sold 1.8M EV last year, 2023 and sold 1.3M EV 2022. Already sold 6M EV accumulatively.... you're ignorance.
Amazon and many online retailers doesn't/didn't make any profit... Think about it
Sounds like ... DUMPING
dumping don't make profits
@@fatdoi003 BYD make money because of subsidies and dumping. Otherwise they would be loss making too.
Sounds like … breaking into a protected market (cars) with a new technology (electric) to address a known problem (global warming).
Apart from Tesla, the industry resists change, resists fixing the problem they caused.
Auto is a toxic mess.
Most car industries around the world get subsidies to export
@@smefour yes, and that’s for balance of trade. (BOT).
China actually has positive BOT with most countries.
I think maybe they are trying to achieve efficiency of scale in a high value industry, vs say textiles.
And people wonder why some people might think they are dumping their stuff on other countries
Buying the global business.
A proper bollocks , do not believe in that . Geely and BYD for sure are making profit .
And you have more information than the Chinese officials? What is your support that these two make money? I am seriously curious so please provide link.
Do geely make profits from EVs? Im doubtful
@@PelleGIT Geely are making profit for Sure
@@Bemx2k Ok, please point me to something that shows that. Like an official financial filing or something. Its not that I dont believe you, but I would like to verify it. Or are you talking about profit in general and not specifically on their EVs?
@@PelleGIT Stop it , and cut this shit
You doing it again. The plug in hybrid is an EV. PHEV will lead the transition.
True that Amazon is a business owned and promoted by the USA government like the car companies in China 😂😂😂
Did they give you a Chinese passport? 😂😂😂
But Amazon mostly sells Chinese stuff, marking it up.
Greetings, that is not entirely true. The other Chinese brands are about to expand their productions.
I originally speculated that BYD would be the first vendor to adapt Tesla's FSD! Little did I know that another Chinese auto manufacturer has beat all others to the punch, Xpeng! They have already stolen Tesla FSD Tech,as a former Tesla employee resigned from Tesla & stoled a copy of FSD & gave it to Xpeng!
And the name of that brand: Tesla
-Tesla- Joooohhhnnnnnn Ceeeeennnaaaaaa!
Is that an Eames lounge chair?
Another thing might be that this "loss" is partially due to one time expenses. They might be able to sell those cars at a profit once the research and factory are paid for.
Neither cost for factories or R&D are considered one time expenses. Please read up on things before you write about it.
Isn’t Tesla making money on their EV’s in China?
I don't think BYD are making a profit on EVs...they are making a profit on all their car sales...Evs are still sold at a loss..
BYD gross margin on EV 28%, much higher than Tesla
@@nobodyli6543 can you link where you got that....and gross isn't really relevant
@@grantbuttenshaw It blocks us from posting links. But here is a quote. Of note, 28.1% is the margin from their automotive business (not including their low-margin electronics divisiom).
"BYD delivered a decent performance in the first quarter. Although the revenue was slightly lower than market expectations, the highlight was the gross profit margin in the car manufacturing sector this quarter. The market originally expected the gross profit margin of the automotive business (including batteries) to decrease from 25.1% in the previous quarter to 20.5% this quarter due to the price reduction of the Honor version. However, surprisingly, the gross profit margin of the automotive business (including batteries) this quarter almost reached a historical high of 28.1%! This gross profit margin level in the car manufacturing business is far ahead of domestic competitors, even with a car selling price of only around 140,000 yuan."
@@grantbuttenshaw From Investors Business Daily:
"BYD Earnings
BYD earnings had been booming, but have slowed amid heavier discounts.
Q1 net income grew 10% vs. a year earlier in local currency, while revenue rose 4%. Both were slightly below views.
Despite big price cuts and discounts, BYD offset that due to lower battery costs and other savings. R&D costs swelled 70% vs. a year earlier.
Gross margins rose to a record 21.9% from 21.2% in Q4 and 17.9% a year earlier. BYD Auto margins hit 28.1%.
With sales ramping up, gross margins are likely to rise in the coming quarters."
they are getting huge sub from Chinese government they all making money
*This is scary* - thumbnail.
Really?
Vikings don't get scared. 😁😁
That's a very naive statement by you on what is being said. First many of them have diverse businesses so the EV section which is NEW ands required huge investment in facilities and infrastructure was always going to have a bedding in period. Brands like Nio and others are building their output capacity and tech, but what you are missing out on is that most if not all of them are hugely supported by other areas of their business and not in any way close to risk. They have the money in their businesses and the personal wealth to spend. Factoring profit is accounting for the expenditure, that expenditure will vastly decrease and profits will vastly rise, that is what they are doing here. Why do you think hugely successful phone brands are moving into EVs? Do you think it is just random madness? No, they are rich, they understand how to invest and diversify and unlike Western companies a Phone or Computer company i China is quite happy to diversify into other areas. Its smart business by these companies, painting it otherwise is a lack of Western understanding of how Chinese players operate.
Would I drive a Build Your Dreams or a Tesla? Although the Tesla costs more, I think it’s a much better car.
tofu dreg
Is that the stuff in your head.
This spokesman better have someone else start his car and stay away from high rise windows. 😂
is going tu be a blood bath
You're a grown up man - why are such harmless things scary to you?
Or do you use the term scary as randomly as US Americans use the term "I love you" rendering it meaningless by doing that?
Fake news
Collect underpants, ?, Profit..... without the profit.
@Viking, to compare Amazon and Chinese EV companies is a bit disingenuous. Amazon didnt get subsidies from the US government to stay alive. Investors were willing to put up the money. In China, the EV industry and many others, get money or other benefits from the government. Two very different situations. If you are to make comparisons, at least try to make apples to apples comparisons. You really need to try to be more unbiased in your reporting.
Back in the day, they kinda did. Internet companies didn’t have to pay VAT like physical shops did. That’s a large reason why the prices were so cheap. And Congress allowed it. Actually I don’t even know if that’s changed, I don’t use Amazon.
@@TheBooban There is a huge difference between what is happening in China. EU concluded in their investigation that Chinese EVs (including their supply chains) have received more than $250bn in subsidies in the last 10 years. Amazon has never received anything near that. Also, Chinese EVs receive benefits whether they sell a car or not, the example you give about Amazon and VAT means Amazon only benefits if they actually sell something. In other words, Chinese government is keeping a bunch of EV companies alive in China year after year but Amazon would have gone bankrupt if they didnt sell anything. So the two benefits differ substantially both in magnitude and in the way they benefited the company in question.
@@PelleGIT Didn't both Ford and GM receive billions in bailouts over the last decade?, and they're late to the EV transition (now given up) because of the oil lobby?.
😅rb
👍