Sometimes Twin Twister's supposed "cost" can become advantage with decks that wants their starters and combo pieces in their graveyard. As the game evolves with more graveyard effects I think Twin Twister would gradually powercreep MST as S/T removal and graveyard setup
Yes even the current meta decks like to be in grave rn. Dryton just makes it free advantage, tri zoo can get searches. Elditch is really good with it. Sword soul can discard a tenyi or open up taia rocks can pitch block dragon or bricks anyway in my opinion the only one that loses advantage is D.I.D.S and maybe branded. PS Im a master duel player. I don't really know what decks are currently meta in tcg
@@stanleynente7924 the reason why twin powercrept MST is completely different. You are only going to run s/t removal against backrow heavy decks or decks reliant on a particular continous/field spell (like crystal beast ik it’s not meta it’s just the first example that comes go my mind) and twin twister has a lower deck building cost than MST cuz you only need to draw 1 instead of 2 for the same effect. Effectively making its opportunity cost half
I run 3x twisters in gren maju over lightning storm for the utility it brings and how it interacts with my deck. It lets me discard dangers for a +1 if I can pop another back row or monsters. Gizmek is also a +1 because it can be played from hand or grave. Later in the game can bin off cards like Kaiju slumber or D Shifter for 2 pops when they aren't able to be activated. Solid card easily mained in Gren.
These videos are fantastic. I just wanted to point out one thing about how the game has progressed and how the need for a card like MST at all has drastically changed. Currently the format is relatively slow with most decks having some back row and thus there is removal spells. Harpie’s, twin, cosmic, and red reboot (which is a drastically different card than MST but serves nearly the same purpose) are all common in the side board, but this is only due to inherently strong spell/trap based decks which have emerged recently. The “true” power creep to MST is knightmare phoenix. I know in this video you wanted to exclude monsters that stick on field because of the inherit extra utility of them, but none come close to phoenix’s ease of access and utility. It is one of the only cards I can look at and truly say it would be a viable option in every format ever. The inherit disadvantage of all of the cards in this video is that you must somehow access them. Usually that comes through drawing them, there are other niche ways, but you only start with 5 (or 6 if going second/long ago) cards. Even cards like breaker must be in your hand. You brought up tornado dragon which is closer and relatively easily accessible by being a rank 4, but nothing compares to the simple cost of 2 monsters with different names. In a theoretical world where Konami doesn’t bring skill drain back to 3 or release incredible control tools like mystic mine, with the speed of the modern format it would be entirely reasonable that you would play no removal and just depend on having phoenix be your answer to any fringe spells or traps. This brings up the slight reverse powercreep that we are currently seeing in yugioh now that it is entirely viable to play slower spell or trap based control decks again due to extreme power cards/Konami using the banlist in a way to slow down the game, but that is for another time. Great vid!
@@christopherfeatherley You have to trust that your opponent is telling the truth when they say they don't have a card. If you have a substantiated doubt that they're lying, you can call a judge to check.
one thing that i think pushes Cosmic Cyclone to be the strongest contender for "strictly better" is that a lot of backrow has graveyard effects (stuff like the Golden Land traps) that i think denying that advantage is more worthwhile even with the 1000lp activation cost
I really wish you had talked about Spiritualism. It has some of the same pros as Night Beam, but it's blanket immune to being negated so it outs Imperial Order. In some cases the fact that it doesn't destroy the backrow can get around some forms of backrow protection like Lord of the Heavenly Prison. I think this is a severely underrated card.
I think you make a lot of good points. Especially about Typhoon that seems like it'll come up in the meta eventually, but I'd also like to reiterate what other commenters have already brought up about discard costs being a benefit, and Knightmare Pheonix being dramatically more accessible than MST despite being excluded from consideration. The reality is most situations that require a single spell trap to be removed can be handled by Knightmare Pheonix without the need for the luck inherent in drawing MST. Tornado Dragon obviously does the same thing for decks that easily summon a rank 4 with a potential downside of only 1 of its materials going to grave. Cards in grave are also super important. I played a Synchron deck in the Sychro Fest event in Yugioh Master Duel, and often the discard off Twin Twisters was strictly to my benefit. It was level 2 monsters in grave to summon back with Junk Synchron. It was Stardust Trail, Stardust Synchron, Jet Synchron, or Cyberse Synchron in grave for either further extension in my combo that turn or protection for an important monster in the Extra Monster Zone. Although many decks abhor the discard off Twin Twisters, it has gotten to be as meta as it is specifically because high power decks often benefit from its cost which makes it effectively a +2 in card advantage as you spend 1 resource to deprive your opponent of 2 and gain 1 of your own.
I feel like konami recognises the lack of traps in the format and so more decks like labrynth and Dinomorphia are being printed to try and restore that balance.
I have an interesting tidbit about Nobleman of Extermination. The text shown in this video is not the most recent printing, which reads: Target 1 face-down Spell/Trap on the field; destroy that target, and if you do, banish it, then, if it was a Trap, each player reveals their Main Deck, then banishes all cards from it with that card's name. Since this specifies that you must target a face down card, and then says to destroy *that* target (the face down card you targeted), this means that if the card is chained and flipped face up, it is no longer *that* target, and is not destroyed. I know this is ridiculous and pedantic but that's Yugioh rulings for you 🤷♂️ Anyway, the point is that cards which equip themselves to something, are continuous, or just stay on the field for any reason can easily dodge Extermination, making the card much worse than it seems initially.
15:32 There's a lot of good, generic Traps that continue to see play that I can think of that see plenty of play in going first decks: the Solemn Judgment/Strike, Torrential Tribute, Ice Dragon's Prison, Evenly Matched, and floodgates like There Can Be Only One or Summon Limit. But that's the thing, they're only really good going first (or in the case of Evenly Matched, going second with a deck that wants to go first). They're also not combo enablers or extenders, so they're usually strictly played in backrow-heavy decks, or the side deck if they're played at all outside of backrow-heavy decks. There's only one Trap that I would consider being a true staple these days: Infinite Impermanence, and it's strictly because of its status as a "hand trap" that it manages to be such great interruption in a game where regular Trap cards are often too slow, as you talked about later on. I've tried Typhoon in the side deck of Traptrix in the past, but it didn't work out too well, although I definitely still believe the card has potential to be great someday.
It's interesting how backrow removal is so much more prevalent in Master Duel, almost entirely due to the best of 1 format. The lack of a side deck has a shockingly high impact on the metagame
In the end, it's all about win percentage, and if slotting in a twin twister/mst/harpies can get that percentage a little higher than not slotting it in, it's worth it. Bo1 makes all decks either have to hyper focus on getting their job done as well as possible and be able to play through common disruption, or spread out and be able to stop what's popular right now as effectively as possible.
Twin Twisters and Cosmic Cyclone are pretty much upgrades nowadays. In the past several years, no one has really run MST aside from some Sky Striker Decks, and even then, they usually run the other two or cards like Lightning Storm.
Regarding the strictly worse MSTs, it must be said that Tornado and Mystical Wind Typhoon do not target, which could potentially have a huge impact depending on the circumstances
I completely agree with your assesment on what is sidegrades, and downgrades to MST. Honestly, the only thing I can say regarding that is that MST has probably been one of the most simple cards in the game to design and retrain, and yet it generally took a long time to design cards that generally felt on par and equally useful as MST. One of the most frustrating aspects of Yugioh, is how they manage to nail some aspects of the game and yet end up completely ruining other aspects, and sadly I find that much of it is done intentionally.
There are not many ways you can reasonably make an equivalent card to MST. Twin Twisters is statistically better as a side deck option, for example. MST is still a powerful card in its own right, though. So making anything that could be as good or better would allow decks to play essentially more copies of it. So, when these retrains were being made it was pretty apparent that trap cards had to be less viable or this would kill them before that could happen naturally
Oh btw hilarious combo with Wild Tornado is to use magical hats and put it on the field, if they attack it it will pop their face up and if they don’t at the end of the turn when it goes to GY it still pops their face up. There’s a funny duel links npc with a whole magical hats themed deck lmao
"If you are constructing a cube, these cards might me worth considering" hehe, that's me Indeed, I'm taking notes, and I have a bunch of those already. You can be the lucky guy who gets mst, but you may instead have to work with other cards form the family.
When you take a power card like MST off the limited or banned list you end up screwing with the purpose of a lot of retrains that were made to balance them.
Ok, can we talk about how mass removal isn't considered strictly better than mst? What would make you ever run mst over a critical mass of mass spell and trap removal (i.e. in master duel it's 1 Harpie's and 3 lightning storm, running a 5th copy of spell and trap removal is probably not necessary)? It's ability to chain to imperial order? Niche cases like a random artifact or harpie player?
IO is banned, though. Fragrance is such a weird corner case to deckbuild around, it isn't a good counter if it absolutely fails to deal with everything else. Plus, in best of 3 your opponent can just wait to activate fragrance until after you have backrow on the field and avoid the hand trap activation
The game doesn't work in a way that would make new normal monsters very interesting. Plus, normal monster beatdown decks were only viable in the TCG for a few years, compared to over a decade without them. It's just a major regression
@@puppieslovies Best they can do is new decks based on/supporting normal monsters. Magikey and Suship are very cool examples that need some more support before I can call them complete archetypes, but they're very fun! Normal Monsters are boring, but their support doesn't have to be. Sunavalon is also sick, and also only missing a little extra boss monster to be really good.
Idk how you posted this in 2022 and didn't already see TT outclassing MST. No one runs MST in the side and everyone runs TT. Everyone will take the extra cost to discard to go 2 for 2 everytime over the 1 for 1. WHICH I think would be an extremely interesting behavior to analyze if you picked deeper at it instead of kinda ignorantly brushing it off.
Regarding the strictly worse MSTs, it must be said that Tornado and Mystical Wind Typhoon do not target, which could potentially have a huge impact depending on the circumstances
Sometimes Twin Twister's supposed "cost" can become advantage with decks that wants their starters and combo pieces in their graveyard. As the game evolves with more graveyard effects I think Twin Twister would gradually powercreep MST as S/T removal and graveyard setup
It has power crept MST a Looooooong time ago
Yes even the current meta decks like to be in grave rn. Dryton just makes it free advantage, tri zoo can get searches. Elditch is really good with it. Sword soul can discard a tenyi or open up taia rocks can pitch block dragon or bricks anyway in my opinion the only one that loses advantage is D.I.D.S and maybe branded. PS Im a master duel player. I don't really know what decks are currently meta in tcg
@@stanleynente7924 the reason why twin powercrept MST is completely different. You are only going to run s/t removal against backrow heavy decks or decks reliant on a particular continous/field spell (like crystal beast ik it’s not meta it’s just the first example that comes go my mind) and twin twister has a lower deck building cost than MST cuz you only need to draw 1 instead of 2 for the same effect. Effectively making its opportunity cost half
It already has
I run 3x twisters in gren maju over lightning storm for the utility it brings and how it interacts with my deck.
It lets me discard dangers for a +1 if I can pop another back row or monsters. Gizmek is also a +1 because it can be played from hand or grave.
Later in the game can bin off cards like Kaiju slumber or D Shifter for 2 pops when they aren't able to be activated.
Solid card easily mained in Gren.
These videos are fantastic. I just wanted to point out one thing about how the game has progressed and how the need for a card like MST at all has drastically changed. Currently the format is relatively slow with most decks having some back row and thus there is removal spells. Harpie’s, twin, cosmic, and red reboot (which is a drastically different card than MST but serves nearly the same purpose) are all common in the side board, but this is only due to inherently strong spell/trap based decks which have emerged recently. The “true” power creep to MST is knightmare phoenix. I know in this video you wanted to exclude monsters that stick on field because of the inherit extra utility of them, but none come close to phoenix’s ease of access and utility. It is one of the only cards I can look at and truly say it would be a viable option in every format ever. The inherit disadvantage of all of the cards in this video is that you must somehow access them. Usually that comes through drawing them, there are other niche ways, but you only start with 5 (or 6 if going second/long ago) cards. Even cards like breaker must be in your hand. You brought up tornado dragon which is closer and relatively easily accessible by being a rank 4, but nothing compares to the simple cost of 2 monsters with different names. In a theoretical world where Konami doesn’t bring skill drain back to 3 or release incredible control tools like mystic mine, with the speed of the modern format it would be entirely reasonable that you would play no removal and just depend on having phoenix be your answer to any fringe spells or traps. This brings up the slight reverse powercreep that we are currently seeing in yugioh now that it is entirely viable to play slower spell or trap based control decks again due to extreme power cards/Konami using the banlist in a way to slow down the game, but that is for another time. Great vid!
11:16 unfortunately not anymore , the rules for cards like this (ex mind crush) don't let the opponent check the deck/hand/private areas now
"Private areas" you made me giggle
Also, what happens now if you can't check your opponent's deck?
@@christopherfeatherley You have to trust that your opponent is telling the truth when they say they don't have a card. If you have a substantiated doubt that they're lying, you can call a judge to check.
Just play Ceremonial Bell XD
@@christopherfeatherley gotta trust him
I woulda mentioned waking the dragon instead of black pendant when talking about not wanting to accidentally pop the wrong facedowns
Excellent video. These are the kind of topics that I would like to watch more often.
The dedication is notable.
Well done.
one thing that i think pushes Cosmic Cyclone to be the strongest contender for "strictly better" is that a lot of backrow has graveyard effects (stuff like the Golden Land traps) that i think denying that advantage is more worthwhile even with the 1000lp activation cost
I swear. This can be valuable information when people wanna make a new card game.
I really wish you had talked about Spiritualism. It has some of the same pros as Night Beam, but it's blanket immune to being negated so it outs Imperial Order. In some cases the fact that it doesn't destroy the backrow can get around some forms of backrow protection like Lord of the Heavenly Prison. I think this is a severely underrated card.
I think you make a lot of good points. Especially about Typhoon that seems like it'll come up in the meta eventually, but I'd also like to reiterate what other commenters have already brought up about discard costs being a benefit, and Knightmare Pheonix being dramatically more accessible than MST despite being excluded from consideration. The reality is most situations that require a single spell trap to be removed can be handled by Knightmare Pheonix without the need for the luck inherent in drawing MST. Tornado Dragon obviously does the same thing for decks that easily summon a rank 4 with a potential downside of only 1 of its materials going to grave. Cards in grave are also super important. I played a Synchron deck in the Sychro Fest event in Yugioh Master Duel, and often the discard off Twin Twisters was strictly to my benefit. It was level 2 monsters in grave to summon back with Junk Synchron. It was Stardust Trail, Stardust Synchron, Jet Synchron, or Cyberse Synchron in grave for either further extension in my combo that turn or protection for an important monster in the Extra Monster Zone. Although many decks abhor the discard off Twin Twisters, it has gotten to be as meta as it is specifically because high power decks often benefit from its cost which makes it effectively a +2 in card advantage as you spend 1 resource to deprive your opponent of 2 and gain 1 of your own.
I feel like konami recognises the lack of traps in the format and so more decks like labrynth and Dinomorphia are being printed to try and restore that balance.
I have an interesting tidbit about Nobleman of Extermination.
The text shown in this video is not the most recent printing, which reads:
Target 1 face-down Spell/Trap on the field; destroy that target, and if you do, banish it, then, if it was a Trap, each player reveals their Main Deck, then banishes all cards from it with that card's name.
Since this specifies that you must target a face down card, and then says to destroy *that* target (the face down card you targeted), this means that if the card is chained and flipped face up, it is no longer *that* target, and is not destroyed. I know this is ridiculous and pedantic but that's Yugioh rulings for you 🤷♂️
Anyway, the point is that cards which equip themselves to something, are continuous, or just stay on the field for any reason can easily dodge Extermination, making the card much worse than it seems initially.
I just started YuGiOh and your content is helping a lot, thank you and keep the content coming!
Such a cool breakdown!
15:32 There's a lot of good, generic Traps that continue to see play that I can think of that see plenty of play in going first decks: the Solemn Judgment/Strike, Torrential Tribute, Ice Dragon's Prison, Evenly Matched, and floodgates like There Can Be Only One or Summon Limit. But that's the thing, they're only really good going first (or in the case of Evenly Matched, going second with a deck that wants to go first). They're also not combo enablers or extenders, so they're usually strictly played in backrow-heavy decks, or the side deck if they're played at all outside of backrow-heavy decks. There's only one Trap that I would consider being a true staple these days: Infinite Impermanence, and it's strictly because of its status as a "hand trap" that it manages to be such great interruption in a game where regular Trap cards are often too slow, as you talked about later on. I've tried Typhoon in the side deck of Traptrix in the past, but it didn't work out too well, although I definitely still believe the card has potential to be great someday.
It's interesting how backrow removal is so much more prevalent in Master Duel, almost entirely due to the best of 1 format. The lack of a side deck has a shockingly high impact on the metagame
In the end, it's all about win percentage, and if slotting in a twin twister/mst/harpies can get that percentage a little higher than not slotting it in, it's worth it.
Bo1 makes all decks either have to hyper focus on getting their job done as well as possible and be able to play through common disruption, or spread out and be able to stop what's popular right now as effectively as possible.
Twin Twisters and Cosmic Cyclone are pretty much upgrades nowadays. In the past several years, no one has really run MST aside from some Sky Striker Decks, and even then, they usually run the other two or cards like Lightning Storm.
Put that theory right into my veins. This is why I have a Vanguard podcast. For shit like this.
Love your content. 💗
Regarding the strictly worse MSTs, it must be said that Tornado and Mystical Wind Typhoon do not target, which could potentially have a huge impact depending on the circumstances
Heavy Storm Duster deserves mention here.
I completely agree with your assesment on what is sidegrades, and downgrades to MST. Honestly, the only thing I can say regarding that is that MST has probably been one of the most simple cards in the game to design and retrain, and yet it generally took a long time to design cards that generally felt on par and equally useful as MST. One of the most frustrating aspects of Yugioh, is how they manage to nail some aspects of the game and yet end up completely ruining other aspects, and sadly I find that much of it is done intentionally.
There are not many ways you can reasonably make an equivalent card to MST. Twin Twisters is statistically better as a side deck option, for example.
MST is still a powerful card in its own right, though. So making anything that could be as good or better would allow decks to play essentially more copies of it. So, when these retrains were being made it was pretty apparent that trap cards had to be less viable or this would kill them before that could happen naturally
Oh btw hilarious combo with Wild Tornado is to use magical hats and put it on the field, if they attack it it will pop their face up and if they don’t at the end of the turn when it goes to GY it still pops their face up. There’s a funny duel links npc with a whole magical hats themed deck lmao
"If you are constructing a cube, these cards might me worth considering" hehe, that's me
Indeed, I'm taking notes, and I have a bunch of those already. You can be the lucky guy who gets mst, but you may instead have to work with other cards form the family.
I Love trolling true Draco player on master duel festival with Typhoon lmao.
I believe these cards have within them the ability to remain relevant.Floodgates cards are weak to those.
When you take a power card like MST off the limited or banned list you end up screwing with the purpose of a lot of retrains that were made to balance them.
What about that card that target a spell or trap and return it to the hand but the activation of that card can not be negate?
Very good video as always, but you forgot dicephoon
Ok, can we talk about how mass removal isn't considered strictly better than mst? What would make you ever run mst over a critical mass of mass spell and trap removal (i.e. in master duel it's 1 Harpie's and 3 lightning storm, running a 5th copy of spell and trap removal is probably not necessary)? It's ability to chain to imperial order? Niche cases like a random artifact or harpie player?
There is some argument twin twister doesn't powercreep mst. But cosmic cyclone are just a better mst without any downside.
Heavy storm duster?
Typhoon being a trap means, it can't be negated by Imperial Order or delayed by Anti-Spell Fragrance.
IO is banned, though. Fragrance is such a weird corner case to deckbuild around, it isn't a good counter if it absolutely fails to deal with everything else.
Plus, in best of 3 your opponent can just wait to activate fragrance until after you have backrow on the field and avoid the hand trap activation
This is fun man
I think Parallel Twister should be considered
iif 😍
i totally forgot about malevolent catastrophe.
I miss Normal Monsters mattering.
SUSHIPSWEEP
The game doesn't work in a way that would make new normal monsters very interesting.
Plus, normal monster beatdown decks were only viable in the TCG for a few years, compared to over a decade without them. It's just a major regression
@@puppieslovies Best they can do is new decks based on/supporting normal monsters. Magikey and Suship are very cool examples that need some more support before I can call them complete archetypes, but they're very fun!
Normal Monsters are boring, but their support doesn't have to be. Sunavalon is also sick, and also only missing a little extra boss monster to be really good.
The L in "halve" is silent, it just sounds like "have"
Idk how you posted this in 2022 and didn't already see TT outclassing MST. No one runs MST in the side and everyone runs TT. Everyone will take the extra cost to discard to go 2 for 2 everytime over the 1 for 1. WHICH I think would be an extremely interesting behavior to analyze if you picked deeper at it instead of kinda ignorantly brushing it off.
You remind me of 3b1b
Regarding the strictly worse MSTs, it must be said that Tornado and Mystical Wind Typhoon do not target, which could potentially have a huge impact depending on the circumstances
Targeting is only a corner case for backrow. It might matter every 30th duel or something
your right.....