The C.P.R. triangle is one I've heard before, although the first time I heard it, Repeatability was instead replaced with Versatility, or Adaptability. I like Repeatability better as a metric for judging a deck's overall strength by itself though, since Versatility is more about how well it plays in response to another deck's plays (which IS important, just different). Interesting video again, and also nice MBT shoutout, I've been fond of him for a while too.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! Yep, I was trying to find the right word for it because I've had this discussion with friends before and terms like versatility and adaptability have never really fit - I think the closest alternative I found was recovery , which is similar, but not quite as accurate to cover all the aspects of it. Glad to see another MBT fan!
I think that 2/3 rule of the triangle is good one but also 1/3 is good too. And not just per card, that and the stratagy as a whole. I also was thinking about chess. And about roles of each Queen and Pawn and how in Chess. It isn't the individual pieces but the stratagy as whole. So like wise. It isn't just about a balance of the individual card when a card is overly broken in this it breaks the whole stratagy.
And five months after this vid was uploaded we have adamancipator being put to rouge tier thanx to the last banlist. And instead we have 2 meta decks that r above the other best decks. 1 is a new addition to the competitive realm, flame noble knights. And an older but still new deck being dragon link. Flame noble knighta r a combo deck that still uses some of there older cards bcuz there still so good along with most of if not all there new support. And bcuz of the new support cards from the earliest sets r now so strong that there borderline banworthy now. Flame noble knights game plan is to set up multiple disruptions on the 1st turn while also ripping there opponents entire hand way so there only option to deal with ur board and make a comback is there draw. And dragon link is another combo deck that sets up at least 6 negations and/or disruptions on the 1st turn while playing thru mutiple handtraps.
This is way to cold for you to see it but the one thing that you did forget to mention, is that Oko's elk ability doubles as removal sure you can elk up your food tokens to swing for lethal, but if your opponent summoned a scary monster or put out a staxy artifact to lock you out of the game you can just say "Hey bud, its an elk now" and then hold up blockers. It has late game inevitability because it can turn food into 3/3's but if you try to pressure it to much it can turn powerful effect monsters your enemy controls into 3/3 vanilla creatures
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it! I'm doing my best to bring clear and useful discussions on these topics, since it seems like, as you said, not too many people talk about them.
Really enjoyed this channel! I think there isn't enough discussion about cards games, and their rights or wrongs... At least on RUclips. I did play Yu-Gi-Oh more or less consistently, although not really competitively, up to the Synchro cards. Or up until Blackwings were the new spammiest Archetype ever. Oh, those were the days.. where I got bored of the game. My friends kinda letting go of it, due to life reasons etc, didn't really help either. After some time not burning cash on paper cuts, I got very into Magic. I am bringing this story up so I might give anyone reading this a better picture of where I'm coming from. I feel like Yu-Gi-Oh had some gameplay way more... comparable to Magic, if you will... until the Chaos cards? The ones that brought about the ban list. I say that in the sense where you could set a bunch of cards, or play a less powerful monster, and call it a turn. Now both games are very much distinct, of course. But my point is that, by 'hardwiring' new play patterns in the card effects, alongside making new rules (with new card types to pair them up with), one can make a game very different, in a meta sense, to what it was before. Can't they?
Awesome to see another video! I found this to be an interesting take on the concept of the meta, breaking it down into the C.P.R. system, and it made me think about theoretical vs. practical metagames. For example, you reference the current YuGiOh meta with the many powerful Adamancipator cards, creating a top deck. In the format of Magic the Gathering I primarily play, Commander, there are a number of 'meta' cards that are playable in my decks, but I often avoid them due to price restrictions. Additionally, there are many cards I avoid as their effects have been judge my my playgroup as un-fun, or downright mean. Is there any sort of social meta contract in YuGiOh, or does the competitive nature of the game mean its no holds barred?
Thanks, happy to be making videos again! There's not a social meta contract in tournament play or anything like that, but that's the same as tournament formats of MTG - the social contract is just that, something decided by the players for the enjoyment of those at the table. It's certainly possible in a non-tournament setting to set some house rules or other restrictions while playing Yu-Gi-Oh with friends, there just aren't any officially endorsed or dedicated formats for it.
I wouldn't really call orcust summoning dingirsu without two level 8s unfair, the card was never intended to be brought out that way and it doesn't "feel unfair". Something that "feels more unfair" in my eyes is sky striker mobilize engage. A pretty effortless +1 that is not OPT and can be recycled (even by the very card it searches) is very much outside the norm for yugioh cards. The strategy needs exactly this sort of card because of how a lot of it's plays trade 1 for 1 with a marginal upside. A similar modern example is runick fountain. Drawing 3 cards on a soft OPT while recycling your resources is clearly absurd, and it is without a dubt the most unfair card in the deck. Again, needed to to all other cards being 1 for 1. Or branded, a deck entirely revolved around branded fusion. Or purrely, having east access to an unaffected monster that is interruption to boot. All these cards break the fundemental rules of the game, not in a literal sense but on a conceptual one
IMO, a game's designer shouldn't bother with trying to _make_ a metagame, they should allow it to develop as an emergent gameplay element and then manage the game so that things don't get too far out of hand. From my experience, game designers saying they've "created a metagame" or something along those lines is a red flag to actually mean they're intentionally causing power creep as a marketing tactic. Naturally developed, designer-pruned metagames generally end up healthier than forced, marketing-influenced ones.
I think that heavy control and stall decks can fall under the category of power and repeatability for example mine burn players may not always draw mine but they can still control the game with other cards like wind barrier or floodgates this isnt necesarly the case eldlitch decks are super consistent at turbo the gold man yet they are nasty as hell but ny point is that power can be treated as another kind of consistency up to some extent
how has your knowlege of magic evolved? i feel the way you talked about green and Oko is more of a repeating of the current popular opinion than profound knowlege. Consider focusing your examples to what you know best, yugioh, as it can make a video less problematic. If indeed you think bringing magic to the discussion was a good idea, than you should have brought up the agrro-control-combo triangle to compare to your yugioh triangle.
Thanks for the comment, Gonçalo! I have a bit of a better grasp on it, but by no means am I anything close to an expert. I don't play very often and my main exposure is through Commander, but I did talk to a friend who plays standard a lot and does quite well for help with the Oko part, in addition to consuming content from creators on the subject. That being said, my information even with research won't always be perfect, so if I ever misrepresent things or miss something, I apologize. I think it's important to try and include different examples from other games, as the point of my channel is to look for similarities and compare differences - there will sometimes be specialized content, but for the most part I'm looking for overarching talking points and want to use my examples similarly. The kind of triangle you bring up is something I have heard tossed around before when describing deck types in Yu-Gi-Oh as well, but I didn't think to include. I don't know if it necessarily lines up with the elements of the triangle here, as that's more a discussion on deck types than on what makes up the decks, but it could be relevant, since it sort of lines up with the combined sides. Combo is similar to Glass Cannon, although the others don't match up as nicely lol. Either way, it's a topic I'd like to discuss in a future video. Do you have any good sources for MTG analysis and learning that I can look into?
@@Draw5Move5 Very nice answer. thank you for taking the time to make it so. About the topic at hand, my opinion is that an historic perspective is necessary. For that, looking at Mtg and the trends it established is essential. Good research is required, as leaning on the opinion of other is a risk, as it is focusing only on a single point in time of any game( see oko and the strengh of Green in MTG a while ago. The way i interpreted the title of the video much of what you said has little relevance in magic, my game of choice. To learn more about mtg i would recomend MTGgoldfish(youtube) to see how emotional/fun the game can be, Jeff Hoogland(twitch/youtube) for learning to become a better player and Mark rosewaters´s blog or making magic column on the mtg website for mtg´s design philosophy. Looking forward for more interesting content. Ps. Always be polite but dont be too apolegetic about the content you make. Otherwise the internet can be bad place.
HOW HAS NOBODY ELSE FOUND THIS CHANNEL I LOVE YOU YOURE AMAZING
Thanks, glad you're enjoying the content!
check out the live streams! I also love them
This channel deserves to be way bigger than it is for the logo and name alone.
The C.P.R. triangle is one I've heard before, although the first time I heard it, Repeatability was instead replaced with Versatility, or Adaptability. I like Repeatability better as a metric for judging a deck's overall strength by itself though, since Versatility is more about how well it plays in response to another deck's plays (which IS important, just different). Interesting video again, and also nice MBT shoutout, I've been fond of him for a while too.
Thanks, glad you enjoyed it! Yep, I was trying to find the right word for it because I've had this discussion with friends before and terms like versatility and adaptability have never really fit - I think the closest alternative I found was recovery , which is similar, but not quite as accurate to cover all the aspects of it. Glad to see another MBT fan!
I think that 2/3 rule of the triangle is good one but also 1/3 is good too. And not just per card, that and the stratagy as a whole.
I also was thinking about chess. And about roles of each Queen and Pawn and how in Chess. It isn't the individual pieces but the stratagy as whole.
So like wise. It isn't just about a balance of the individual card when a card is overly broken in this it breaks the whole stratagy.
And five months after this vid was uploaded we have adamancipator being put to rouge tier thanx to the last banlist. And instead we have 2 meta decks that r above the other best decks. 1 is a new addition to the competitive realm, flame noble knights. And an older but still new deck being dragon link. Flame noble knighta r a combo deck that still uses some of there older cards bcuz there still so good along with most of if not all there new support. And bcuz of the new support cards from the earliest sets r now so strong that there borderline banworthy now. Flame noble knights game plan is to set up multiple disruptions on the 1st turn while also ripping there opponents entire hand way so there only option to deal with ur board and make a comback is there draw. And dragon link is another combo deck that sets up at least 6 negations and/or disruptions on the 1st turn while playing thru mutiple handtraps.
“Capstone is completed” :D
Nice work!
Thanks Andrew! I'm going to keep tweaking it in the coming weeks, but I'm glad to be through the worst of it and able to finally slow down for a bit.
I love your channel, hope you get far and don't give up, I'm making my home brew card game and you are such an inspiration
This is way to cold for you to see it but the one thing that you did forget to mention, is that Oko's elk ability doubles as removal sure you can elk up your food tokens to swing for lethal, but if your opponent summoned a scary monster or put out a staxy artifact to lock you out of the game you can just say "Hey bud, its an elk now" and then hold up blockers. It has late game inevitability because it can turn food into 3/3's but if you try to pressure it to much it can turn powerful effect monsters your enemy controls into 3/3 vanilla creatures
Love this topic and presentation. So much potential on this idea and not alot of content on RUclips on it
Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it! I'm doing my best to bring clear and useful discussions on these topics, since it seems like, as you said, not too many people talk about them.
Damn you really need more subscribers for the quality of your vids dude.
very educational! i will keep that triangle in mind as i look at other ccgs
Really enjoyed this channel! I think there isn't enough discussion about cards games, and their rights or wrongs... At least on RUclips. I did play Yu-Gi-Oh more or less consistently, although not really competitively, up to the Synchro cards. Or up until Blackwings were the new spammiest Archetype ever. Oh, those were the days.. where I got bored of the game. My friends kinda letting go of it, due to life reasons etc, didn't really help either.
After some time not burning cash on paper cuts, I got very into Magic. I am bringing this story up so I might give anyone reading this a better picture of where I'm coming from. I feel like Yu-Gi-Oh had some gameplay way more... comparable to Magic, if you will... until the Chaos cards? The ones that brought about the ban list. I say that in the sense where you could set a bunch of cards, or play a less powerful monster, and call it a turn. Now both games are very much distinct, of course. But my point is that, by 'hardwiring' new play patterns in the card effects, alongside making new rules (with new card types to pair them up with), one can make a game very different, in a meta sense, to what it was before. Can't they?
This channel is great.
Comments are good for the yt algorithm
Honestly surprised you only have 500 subs. You deserve more.
Really Cool! I wrote some notes Down in my DEV book!
Awesome to see another video! I found this to be an interesting take on the concept of the meta, breaking it down into the C.P.R. system, and it made me think about theoretical vs. practical metagames. For example, you reference the current YuGiOh meta with the many powerful Adamancipator cards, creating a top deck. In the format of Magic the Gathering I primarily play, Commander, there are a number of 'meta' cards that are playable in my decks, but I often avoid them due to price restrictions. Additionally, there are many cards I avoid as their effects have been judge my my playgroup as un-fun, or downright mean. Is there any sort of social meta contract in YuGiOh, or does the competitive nature of the game mean its no holds barred?
Thanks, happy to be making videos again! There's not a social meta contract in tournament play or anything like that, but that's the same as tournament formats of MTG - the social contract is just that, something decided by the players for the enjoyment of those at the table. It's certainly possible in a non-tournament setting to set some house rules or other restrictions while playing Yu-Gi-Oh with friends, there just aren't any officially endorsed or dedicated formats for it.
Cough cough numerons making utopic zexal turn 1 cough cough. Man that coughing really reminded me of a friend playing "six samurai".
just helping you to get into the alghorithm
Bell has been ding-a-linged!
Great to see you back! Been wayy to long
Thanks Lindel, glad to be back!
Good channel ❤
I wouldn't really call orcust summoning dingirsu without two level 8s unfair, the card was never intended to be brought out that way and it doesn't "feel unfair".
Something that "feels more unfair" in my eyes is sky striker mobilize engage. A pretty effortless +1 that is not OPT and can be recycled (even by the very card it searches) is very much outside the norm for yugioh cards. The strategy needs exactly this sort of card because of how a lot of it's plays trade 1 for 1 with a marginal upside.
A similar modern example is runick fountain. Drawing 3 cards on a soft OPT while recycling your resources is clearly absurd, and it is without a dubt the most unfair card in the deck. Again, needed to to all other cards being 1 for 1.
Or branded, a deck entirely revolved around branded fusion.
Or purrely, having east access to an unaffected monster that is interruption to boot.
All these cards break the fundemental rules of the game, not in a literal sense but on a conceptual one
Keep up the great work! :D
Thanks, will do!
"orcust with the new support is poised to come back to the metagame" oof
Nice vid
IMO, a game's designer shouldn't bother with trying to _make_ a metagame, they should allow it to develop as an emergent gameplay element and then manage the game so that things don't get too far out of hand. From my experience, game designers saying they've "created a metagame" or something along those lines is a red flag to actually mean they're intentionally causing power creep as a marketing tactic. Naturally developed, designer-pruned metagames generally end up healthier than forced, marketing-influenced ones.
I think that heavy control and stall decks can fall under the category of power and repeatability for example mine burn players may not always draw mine but they can still control the game with other cards like wind barrier or floodgates this isnt necesarly the case eldlitch decks are super consistent at turbo the gold man yet they are nasty as hell but ny point is that power can be treated as another kind of consistency up to some extent
how has your knowlege of magic evolved? i feel the way you talked about green and Oko is more of a repeating of the current popular opinion than profound knowlege. Consider focusing your examples to what you know best, yugioh, as it can make a video less problematic.
If indeed you think bringing magic to the discussion was a good idea, than you should have brought up the agrro-control-combo triangle to compare to your yugioh triangle.
Thanks for the comment, Gonçalo! I have a bit of a better grasp on it, but by no means am I anything close to an expert. I don't play very often and my main exposure is through Commander, but I did talk to a friend who plays standard a lot and does quite well for help with the Oko part, in addition to consuming content from creators on the subject. That being said, my information even with research won't always be perfect, so if I ever misrepresent things or miss something, I apologize. I think it's important to try and include different examples from other games, as the point of my channel is to look for similarities and compare differences - there will sometimes be specialized content, but for the most part I'm looking for overarching talking points and want to use my examples similarly. The kind of triangle you bring up is something I have heard tossed around before when describing deck types in Yu-Gi-Oh as well, but I didn't think to include. I don't know if it necessarily lines up with the elements of the triangle here, as that's more a discussion on deck types than on what makes up the decks, but it could be relevant, since it sort of lines up with the combined sides. Combo is similar to Glass Cannon, although the others don't match up as nicely lol. Either way, it's a topic I'd like to discuss in a future video. Do you have any good sources for MTG analysis and learning that I can look into?
@@Draw5Move5 Very nice answer. thank you for taking the time to make it so.
About the topic at hand, my opinion is that an historic perspective is necessary. For that, looking at Mtg and the trends it established is essential. Good research is required, as leaning on the opinion of other is a risk, as it is focusing only on a single point in time of any game( see oko and the strengh of Green in MTG a while ago. The way i interpreted the title of the video much of what you said has little relevance in magic, my game of choice.
To learn more about mtg i would recomend MTGgoldfish(youtube) to see how emotional/fun the game can be, Jeff Hoogland(twitch/youtube) for learning to become a better player and Mark rosewaters´s blog or making magic column on the mtg website for mtg´s design philosophy.
Looking forward for more interesting content.
Ps. Always be polite but dont be too apolegetic about the content you make. Otherwise the internet can be bad place.
Bruh. The first minute of your video is nothing, then I get an advertisement. Get to the point faster. Zzzzz