Krasnogorsk 3. Replacing light seals & removing the motor.
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- Опубликовано: 10 июл 2024
- I had to work on some Krasnogorks so I decided to make a video of the method I use to change light seals on the camera and I removed the motor to clean dust particles and to ad fresh grease.
0:00 Intro and replacing light seals.
11:20 Removing the motor.
Thanks for watching.
#krasnogorsk #krasnogorsk3 #16mm #16mmfilm #kodak #kodakfilm #super16 #lenses #m42 #stillphotography #moviecamera #meteor #film #filmcamera 
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tank you ! great
Thank you for this detailed video - I am a new owner of a K-3 and it was winding and firing as expected when I got it. I took it apart to replace the light seals, re-grease it, and remove the loop formers, and now it does not fire at all.
I first noticed that the front gears were locked up, and the little black set screw under the gate is what freed them - I guess I had taken it out and then re-screwed it too tight. So now I can hold the trigger button in and spin the gears in front with my thumb, but the motor still doesn't work. In fact, with the motor installed, I can still spin the gears in front with my thumb (and see the motor move very slowly one tooth at a time), but I can NOT spin the motor by hand the same way.
With the motor out, I can turn the axle with pliers and feel the spring. It is definitely not disconnected on the inside as the motor snaps back to zero in my hand.
If I put the plate back inside, I can get it installed correctly and the spring winds and catches correctly, but the trigger button does not release any of the spring tension. I have to pull the plate back off and the spring snaps back.
This video was helpful because at the very end you put it back together withOUT the plate and hold the button while turning the crank to engage the mechanism - this is what I cannot do at the moment and I have tried for four hours to figure out why. It looks like such a simple drive train, and I am totally confused about it. Do you have any suggestion at all where to look?
You are right, it is a simple drive train. I don’t think there is a locking mechanism other than the trigger button. If the camera was working fine before look for debris that may be preventing the gears from rotating freely. You can put the camera in the fastest fps position, that makes the mechanism lighter. Don’t use pliers and don’t put pressure on the mirror. I can’t give any other advice without looking at the camera.
@@TheCinematographyLab Thank you so much for the quick reply. I just finished shooting a small video to try and better explain. ruclips.net/video/vm8h9ZekdPE/видео.html I will continue looking at the gears that are coming up stiff
@@TheCinematographyLab I got this working after a few more hours of picking at it. I ended up having to unmount and remount the bracket that holds the pulldown claw - it was rubbing against itself and causing the friction in the video I posted. After reassembly the camera motor and trigger button work as expected. Thanks again for the great video, one of a very few recent resources for this machine!
@@Gumaamug I was working and I didn't have a chance to watch the video before, but with the K3 it's all logic and observation. I'm glad you were able to make it work. I would recommend making sure the gate is aligned. You have a few degrees of play there.
Que chingon RUBEN!!!
Gracias Jon!
I really enjoyed this video and I learned some valuable tips. Your videos are very well done and you always show practical skills that every camera owner can use. Thank you!
Thanks Jon! I'm glad to hear you liked it.
Ruben, thanks so much for all the great videos!! What’s the best grease to use on the internal gears including the ones behind the front cover under the mirror?
My pleasure! To be honest I just used Home Depot grease on the K3s for some time. The K3 has a lot of torque and it's not a quiet camera, so I don't think it requires special grease. A couple of years ago I purchased some "finer" grease and I've been using that "Arri grease" on my projects. You can find the details here:
cinematography.com/index.php?/forums/topic/73361-arriflex-special-grease-and-oil/
Take it easy with the grease. Cameras don't require a lot of it. Grease can migrate and make a mess especially in the front where it could end up on the prisms, the mirror shutter, the gate or even the back of the lens. A small amount evenly distributed can protect the camera from friction and make it run smoother.
Very useful information! Thanks for sharing!
Thanks TrueFilm.
@@TheCinematographyLab will rewatch with close attention. I think having, for example, three reliable and loaded K-3s on set is an inexpensive way of having three 100ft "mags". Next thing: I think we need to come up with some kind of crank tool to make winding up easier. Perhaps some kind of clamp with wood pieces and a larger crank arm. Just an idea.
@@truefilm6991 That's a good idea. If you have two cameras you can shoot with one while someone else loads the other camera and so on.
I have developed several accessories for cameras, so making a new extended crank for the K3 would not be a big deal, I can design and 3D print one at home, the problem is the motor is heavy, so plastic would not be ideal and machining one would be very expensive and most people shooting with this cameras doesn't want to pay for that kind of stuff. I'll make one, pretty much all I have to do is copy te one from the Bolex.
@@TheCinematographyLab Well I don't know anyone personally who even has a faint idea of what a film camera is, let alone loading one. I was thinking about using bolted aluminum plates and perhaps a brass arm or similar. Doesn't need to be pretty. I did a lot of miniature modeling for decades, still have the tools, so I can make a crank arm from material at the local hardware store.
Perhaps you could 3D-print an extended arm and reinforce it with a brass bar (easy to cut but sturdy and brass can be soldered if needed. Just an idea.
I'm currently in the process of gathering some $$$$, might take a while still. If you are resourceful, which you are very much, you can come up with excellent results at a tiny fraction of what a "superior" film camera costs.
@@truefilm6991 That's a great idea! Aluminum would definitely be better than plastic for something like this. I already have a design in my mind, it's basically a fork. I you think about it you just need to replace the lever and use the space to insert a new lever which can be inspired on the Bolex one.
Hi there, great video, thanks for putting it up. I am attempting to fix the motor of a K3...Basically it was winding but the trigger was not engaging. So now I need to access the motor - what is the name of those pincer tool you have? (for taking off the central silver wind handle) Cheers! Mike
Thanks. The tool I used there is a "Lens spanner wrench"
Disassembling a motor can be dangerous. The spring can hold a lot of power and if you don't know how to release it properly it can cause severe damage in it's way out. I don't know how to do it neither.
If the motor has resistance when you try to wind it up, but it doesn't engage that may be because the gear that connects the motor to the rest of the mechanism is out of position. Watch my video where I talk about removing the loop formers. I explain that on that video.
Hi Ruben, on the K3 do you know what would cause jumpy/jittery footage. Seems to be very subtle up and down jitter. Is this a registration problem, is there a fix?
Hi there, well I'm not an expert on cameras or a technician, but I know the K3 has stability issues due to it's design. The camera doesn't have a registration pin as more advanced cameras. Also the K3 doesn't have a pushing mechanism on the side of the gate to prevent the film from moving horizontally.
Considering those factors we should understand the image is never going to be perfectly steady, but let's say it wasn't that bad before. There are a lot of possible causes like the pressure plate spring no longer putting the right amount of pressure, incorrect size of the loops and maybe a misalignment of the gate. If you or someone removed the gate at some point to convert the camera to S16 or U16 the gate may be slightly at an angle with relation to the pull down claw. That would create tension between the film sliding inside the rail trying to follow the shape of the rail and the path of the claw slightly twisted. It would be a good idea to inspect the area visually with the camera running slowly to determine if the claw and the film are moving at the same angle.
Hi, thanks so much for your interesting video. What's the name of the tool you use to unscrew the charger at 13:15? Where I can buy? Thank you!!!
Thank you for watching Davide! That is a "Lens Spanner Wrench" and you can buy a simple one on eBay or Amazon. There are more professional options in the market at specialized websites like micro-tools.
Thank you so much!💥
How thick should the foam be? 2mm? 3mm?
The one I used on the video and the one that I recommend have a thickness of 2mm. It has worked great for me on 16 and Super 8 cameras. You can get the entire package for about $5 at Walmart. I've been using it for years on my cameras, and it's holding there with no issues.
@@TheCinematographyLab thank u!!
Just one question: how do you find the exact position when you put the motor back in?
Thanks again for sharing this very useful information! A few years ago there was just one web site with a bit of information about the K-3, by NCS Products, NYC. I think we are finally filling this void.
The motor doesn't have to be in any particular position, as soon as it engages with the other gears which is pretty easy you are set. I didn't even think about that, I just put the motor un position, pushed to the back and it found it's place on it's own.
There is an issue with some cameras that is the timing of the shutter goes out of sync and it starts dragging the film while it's being exposed. That is not a common issue with the K3 because it doesn't use belts. The most important part of the mechanism is in the front and it made out of solid and reliable metal. I did mark some film with a marker and ran the camera while I was recording 480fps with my Sony camera... Solid! The film stays in position and it doesn't move at all while the shutter is open.
I've seen that website, it definitely had some interesting information about the K3.
@@TheCinematographyLab Thanks, as always, for the information! I suspect that my K-3 has a shutter sync issue, that is sometimes visible on the extended side of the Super 16 frame. Thought about it a lot, since the mirror shutter "swipes" the image in a horizontal arc (like most modern film cameras, unlike the Arri 16 S), this could be happening, since it would still be within tolerance for the regular 16 frame. I can see some vertical light streaks, usually typical of having lost a loop (check the slow motion sniper footage in Kubrick's Full Metral Jacket: the vertical light streaks are clearly caused by a lost loop). It is only visible sometimes in very high contrast situations. I guess I'll have to live with it. I don't have the tools to adjust shutter timing. Thanks for reading.
P.S. talking about belts: there's another reason why I am reluctant to buying something like an Arri SR: belts: they will turn to sticky goo eventually. I know belts are still available in the US, but that adds another hurdle to the many, many that come with a higher end film camera.
@@truefilm6991 That's true! Belts are used on several professional cameras and some of them are getting very difficult to find. I would have to look at that footage to try to determine what's causing those light streaks, but I can tell you that the mechanism of the K3 is very solid, it's no easy to change the timing, unless you apply a lot of pressure to rotate the mirror.
I just uploaded that video I was telling you about. I know not everyone has a high speed camera, but this is a good way to see how the shutter works. Someone shot something similar using a K3, but in my case I shot this to see if the camera was working as it should more than showing how the camera works or looks at high speed.
ruclips.net/video/6fC_gvIt9_E/видео.html
@@TheCinematographyLab upper right hand corner at 3:55 ruclips.net/video/DfcEEjf3qqU/видео.html and also 3:02 right edge. It also occurs very briefly in other shots. It's so few that I can live with it, no big deal. The K-3's resgistration is not the greates (the Bolex is way better), but each frame is held very firmly during exposure, so that no random blur occurs when digitally stabilized. So even with all quirks and limitations, I love the K-3.
Hi! I have a question, if you remove the loopers and lose the footage counter, how do you now when starts the usable part of the roll and how do you know when to stop filming? Thanks a lot for your videos
Thank you Ignacio! When you remove the loop formers the footage counter continues working in the same way. It gets loose, but that doesn't change it's functionality. The meter determines the amount of film by touching the film, so when the film on the feeding side ends the meter will mark 0. Of course this is old technology and it's not perfect, so the best way to determine if the roll ended is by listening closely. You will hear the lose part of the film hitting the walls of the film chamber.
When does it start? Well that depends on how you load the camera. If you load the camera in total darkness as I do, you can start getting usable images right away (watch my testing 16mm cameras at home video)
If you load the camera in subdued light you can expect to have "burns" for about 7 to 10 seconds, then you can shoot the important stuff.
@@TheCinematographyLab Thanks a lot for the answer!!!!
I wanted to ask you, I bought a K3 and it came with bayonet mount, the lens is not really firm in the mount, it's like shaking a little bit, however it doesn´t seem that will fall or similar. I'm just worried about if this is normal. Is it possible to convert it to the M42 mount? Would you recomend it? Can't really find much information about this online. My other question is that the motor is not working at all, when I twist it, nothing happens, not with the shutter either. In the upcoming days I will take it to the only vintage 8 - 16mm camera technician in my country, but honestly it's my first time with these type of cameras and I'd appreciate a lot if with these information some ideas come to your mind, so I can have them in consideration too. Muchas gracias por tus videos, aprendo mucho! Creo que hablas español también no? :D
Gracias Fernando, si hablo Español tambien! I'm going to reply in English so people reading the comments can use the information in the future, but if you have doubts I have no problem at all with replying in Spanish.
I have to be very honest with you, I have never seen a K3 with bayonet, so I cannot tell you if the rattling is normal or not. As you pointed there is not a lot of information about this topic online or anywhere else really. I know that the K3 has a "Russian Bayonet Mount" Sounds like it's not the same as the Arri B (bayonet) mount used extensively on cameras from the 50s & 60s. As I said before I have never had one of those cameras on my hands, but I assume that you could change the front of the camera and the focal flange distance would be correct for the M42 mount. You could get the part from another camera, replace it, measure the FFD and if you are lucky you'd have a camera with a M42 mount.
I don't know were you got the camera and how much you paid for it, but sounds like you could get another camera with a M42 mount for less money than what it would cost to replace the mount and fix the camera.
I got a camera that was stuck and the mechanism was not moving at all. I had another camera before, so I kind of knew what the problem was. I opened the camera and the motor unwind-ed explosively, that told me the motor was not the problem, so I opened the front of the camera were the mount is and it was stuck really bad that it made me think there was something blocking the gears, but I didn't see anything. I started moving the gears and it took a good amount of pressure to move them, but the gears moved a bit. As I said before I saw another camera with the same problem before, so I knew that it simply had to move. Long story short, I did clean the camera, I used WD-40 to clean the gears and after a lot of work the camera was still stiff. It was not moving freely, so I decided to leave it alone, because I have other cameras and I was working on those. If at some point I want to make that camera work, I will have to use something like lighter fluid to remove old grease and I may even have to disassemble the gears. Sounds like that's what is happening with your camera, so you may try removing the motor and check for pressure. If the motor has resistance when you try to wind it up the motor should be good, the you inspect, remove and clean the gears that are close to the motor and if everything fails looks like the problem is going to be in the front part of the camera were the strong gears are located and you will have to clean old grease and try to move the mechanism to set it free and then keep moving it and lubricating it until it is completely free. In my case with that camera I never got to that point and I gave up, but they are mechanical parts, so if you keep going at some point they will rotate.
If you are not planing to convert the camera to Super or Ultra 16 the lens you have is great. I'm impressed by the quality and sharpness the Meteor lens can deliver. The only downside that I find on the lens really is the minimal focusing distance which is 2 meters, so forget about shooting on small rooms and forget about being intimate with actors. Other than that the image quality the lens can deliver it's great, it's a parfocal lens and you already own it.
Donde vives? Gracias y me alegra que te gusten mis videos.
Thank you for a lot of useful information!
Can you share a link for that cheap foam that you used, please? I'm trying to repair my Krasnogorsk-2 camera and I need a light foam)
Also can you tell me what grease do you use to lubricate gears inside the camera. Because in my K-2 there are all sorts of gears: metal, textolite and plastic) Any gear you want in one camera. Is it the same in K-3?
@@DenysZhuravel Thank you. I'm in the US so I don't know if a link can help, but I'll post one here just so you can see what kind of material I used. You can find that foam at craft stores and Walmart here, just so you can have an idea. Regarding the grease, I just used the regular multi purpose grease that they sell at the hardware store and I only used it on the gears made out of metal.
I'm not saying you should use that kind of grease, I only used it on the K3 because it is a tank and because in small quantities the grease is not that heavy. For plastic and textolite gears I used smaller amounts of the same grease and some regular but good quality oil for shafts. Let me clarify one more time. I'm not a technician and I'm pretty much sure a technician would not use that grease, but it works for me because I don't want to pay to get a K3 serviced. I have better cameras and I pay to get those cameras serviced professionally. The K3s are just for fun and experimentation. I have never touched a K2, but looks very similar to the K3, it should be easy to figure out.
www.amazon.com/Horizon-Group-USA-Rainbow-Multi-Color/dp/B07CZLJ4P3/ref=sxin_22?asc_contentid=amzn1.osa.a5ac0637-f4c7-4a68-a497-6d1d7eaeeb4a.ATVPDKIKX0DER.en_US&asc_contenttype=article&ascsubtag=amzn1.osa.a5ac0637-f4c7-4a68-a497-6d1d7eaeeb4a.ATVPDKIKX0DER.en_US&creativeASIN=B07CZLJ4P3&cv_ct_cx=Self+Adhesive+Foam+Sheet&cv_ct_id=amzn1.osa.a5ac0637-f4c7-4a68-a497-6d1d7eaeeb4a.ATVPDKIKX0DER.en_US&cv_ct_pg=search&cv_ct_we=asin&cv_ct_wn=osp-single-source-earns-comm&dchild=1&keywords=Self+Adhesive+Foam+Sheet&linkCode=oas&pd_rd_i=B07CZLJ4P3&pd_rd_r=9e98f6ff-5c22-4078-b5f2-24727b0b8c0f&pd_rd_w=PJB0B&pd_rd_wg=7a2IA&pf_rd_p=b029c82c-aced-48fe-b955-08794dc4e3cd&pf_rd_r=39QD3520FX18JW5A58RC&qid=1632205295&sr=1-2-a3cc9a7a-2f07-46dc-8259-ac02200376a0&tag=scrippsonsite-20
@@TheCinematographyLab Thank you very much for a reply!
Thanks for the link) Now I know what to look for at least. But this foam on the link doesn't have adhesive layer, doesn't it?
Does this cheaper foam made of the same material as more expensive/professional one? Or does it have different structure and properties at least when you squeeze it with your fingers?
Old foam looked like a regular foam rubber glued to the body of the camera.
K2 has exactly the same mechanism as K3, but different film load. There is a closed cartridge and you need to wind the film manualy unlike the K3 where you just put a plastic roll of film directly inside the camera. This is pretty much all the difference.
I guess multi purpose grease is this en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_soap
It works well with moving metal parts. But I'm not sure about plastic. But if you had no problems with cameras that you serviced, then I guess it's ok)
@@DenysZhuravel I didn't pay attention to the adhesive part, but you may want to pay attention and get the one with adhesive.
The quality of the "professional" foam is different, I wouldn't say better. But as you pointed the old foam used on the cameras is not ideal, specially in the bad condition it is on most Krasnogorsk cameras. I mean if you have to replace the stuff in 10 years or 7 years.. Is that bad? Not in my opinion, I have a Nikon F3 that was manufactured in 2004 and I had to replace the light seals when I got it. It's maintenance, that's how I see it.
The grease that I used in small quantities is the one you would use on a bicycle, just the most common one available at hardware stores. I'm not saying that's the ideal one. I'm saying "Since I can open a K3 in minutes, clean it and possibly replace the grease I"m going to use that one" I only used the grease on the metal gears and they have a lot of torque, it's not like they are delicate. At the end I decided to clean the other gears that are not made out of metal and just leave them like that, because looks like they didn't use grease on those.
I have the K3s to experiment with them. That's the way I see it. I'm going to shoot with one soon and post the results on the channel, but I have tested the camera after the "operation" and it works fine. If you are really worried about the camera and you want to shoot a feature film with it send it to an experience technician. Servicing a K3 costs much more than what I have paid for any of the cameras (K3) that I have, I don't want to do that, but... That's me.
I have a question for you about removing the loop formers.
I have a video where I talk about removing the loop formers in detail. I think the answer to your question could be there.
Yes I have seen that video, but the problem I am having is I was going to load a film into the K3 so I wound the camera up a few turns and when I pressed the trigger it ran for a second or two then stopped...the little screws that go into the shaft that runs the motor are now facing to the front of the camera ( lens part ) and I can't get access to loosen them to take off the plate underneath...do you have any suggestions on how to get the shaft to move into tight position.
You have a wetransfer remember to check your junk mail.
Thanks
@@CineMan-jd5gu I'm currently experiencing the same issue.. can't access the inside of the camera to remove the loop formers because the little screws are facing away. ended up taking the sprocket/take up rollers to try to get access to the screws but still no luck + now have all these small parts that I've got to put back into place and the motor refuses to budge. Any luck on your end fixing this issue?
Do you have a PL mount in any of those?
No. All my cameras have m42 mount.
@@TheCinematographyLab what grease did you use for the gears?
@@SoccerAddictttt I used regular grease form the hardware store. I'm sure technicians would use something else, but for a motor that has a good amount of torque and a Russian tank like the K3 it worked fine.