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Hornady V Max 53gr 223 Ballistics Gel Test: Suitable For Self Defense?
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- Опубликовано: 6 авг 2024
- I shoot some Hornady 53gr V-max into some ballistics gel to see how this well known varmint round might perform, should you have to use it against a human in a self defense/home defense situation.
0:00 Intro
0:10 Overview
10:41 Shooting the 53gr V-max
10:58 Slo-mo
14:05 Making a Jank Ass Ballistic Gel Arm
19:29 Shooting Through The Gel Arm
19:53 Slo-mo Tearin That Arm UP
20:10 Second Time Checking The Gel
23:10 Final Thoughts And Rambling
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Music: Cutting It Close
Artist: DJ Freedom
Link: • DJ Freedem - Cutting I... ======================================================
DISCLAIMER: Any opinions, advice, or recommendations given in this video are solely the opinion of the individual giving them, not the official stance or position of any other entity, agency or department.
I have worked in a very large ER in a very large city for 31 years. A 53gr, 55gr or 60gr vmax is absolutely good for home defense! Any hit above the hips will take anyone out of the fight. Heart and lungs are only a inch or so behind the ribs. The liver and other organs are the same. A hit with a vmax in the arm or hand will disabled the limb. Neck, face or head is dead meat. I have treated or been involved in many hundreds maybe a thousand gunshots. Don't underestimate the vmax for home defense.
I think most attackers will be a bit reluctant to carry on in a fight when they find they meat-hook has turned to vapor.
We saw that w/ G. Grosskreutz and that was with FMJ. Sure it wasn't lethal, but it did end his thoughts of any more "attack".
It'd be interesting to use that heavier 60 gr and see if it doesn't give that whole 12 - 18" requirement. I've seen other VMAX and depending on how fast they are going can do more expand & penetrate than the fragment & dump like we saw.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
You are correct this guy nows nothing and he is obviously not a hunter. I have shot many varmints with those bullets. Talk about damage and large wounds. This guy is not qualified at all.
@@Yorktown-pb8bd never claimed to be qualified, for one. Two, I'm definitely not a hunter but I've also heard from people that have hunted coyotes with these and it didn't drop them.
I have worked in a level one trauma center for ten years. What this guy said is spot freaking on. This would do amazing for home defense or genera purpose. People but way to much emphasis on penetration because of the “FBI Standard”. No, your organs are not 18 inches deep, they’re like 2 at absolute most. This vmax would be incredibly effective. I’ve rolled enough people to the morgue to know.
You need to remember in this hypothetical situation you have 30 rounds. Nobody is walking away from that.
Thank you for pointing that out.
Am I the only one that laughed when he said that round was built for squirrel 😂😂
Oh, you know, varmints. Small critters and the like. Coyote, coyote, fox, badger, stuff like that. I figured squirrel fits in there too, sorta
😂
This dude talked for an hour then shoots the block to dang high 🤣
I have a mag of Nosler 55gr Varmagedon for my AR, the way i see it for home defense is regardless of penetration depth there is still a 55gr piece of lead going at 3200fps and dumping ALL of it's energy into the first 8 inches.
I use the 50 grain ballistic tip lead free for this exact reason. I like me some Hornady, but being an Oregonian it’s hard to not use Nosler.
It’s not equal to 8 inches into an intruder
@D C I'm saying regardless of penetration, it is still dumping ALL of the 1,000+ ft lbs of energy into the target. Not potentially passing through the target and carrying that energy past the target.
@@aquablaster86 energy really means nothing . Velocity is more important and penetration. I’d rather a permanent wound cavity be a little bit smaller but have the capacity to reach all of the important shit . That’s why we have ballistics gel and all the data showing that if the particular round penetrates this far in gel it’ll do roughly this in a person. By your first comment you must be running a 20 inch gun. You can get m193 a lot cheaper and get a lot better penetration.
@@Dcm193 Well sure, if you want to penetrate the wall behind the intruder, the wall of the neighbor's house across the street, and the neighbor's dog, FMJ is perfect for that.
If you do the math the kinetic energy transfered by a "varmint," round tends to be much higher, as every bit of energy is transfered imediatly upon contact.
Great video, Loved the input.
I load my 223s with 53 grain v-max. I don't hunt. I do it for Defense. My motivations are not based on fear of overpenetration (however it certainly is a consideration) but rather, I prefer a round that is going to do as much damage on impact as possible. The transfer of energy in such a small amount of space is just insane, so you're getting all of that 1300+ ft/lbs of energy packed into a 6 to 8 inch space. Whereas with an fmj/hollowpoint/SP round, you 'll have the same (or close) energy, but spread out over longer (ultimately overpenetration) so the remaining energy of the bullet leaving the target is wasted, and, in regards to "overpenetration", becomes a liability, property damage, collateral, etc. I can understand the concern of a scenario where you are shooting a perpendicular torso, or there's an arm/hand in the way of the first shot, but that's why you have 30 rds. Finally, faster, lighter bullets, at least mathematically, are hitting way harder than heavier slower bullets.
Conclusion...
Win: lighter, faster bullet with maximum kinetic energy transfer within a small space.
Win: mitigates fears of over penetration.
Semi-win: in my experience, lighter bullets shoot very smooth, and you have more room to upcharge them to get more velocity without having to worry about insane pressure spikes.
Let me know what you all think!
I’ve used 53gr Vmax ammo on hogs. My favorite shot to take is the spine where it meets the skull. Even if my shot is off by a couple of inches, the hydrostatic shock severs the spine. If I miss any direction, spine severed or skull shattered.
I’m testing some 45gr Winchester varmint ammo on hogs this Saturday out of my Baikal mp-18. It has a 23.5” barrel and a 1-12” twist. I need lightweight ammo to shoot it accurately. The 53gr stuff is the heaviest hunting ammo I like to use. If a 53gr vmax can obliterate a hog, I have no doubt it will do the same to a person.
This stuff is nasty ammo. I wouldn’t want to be in the receiving end of any vmax round.
Noice, I’m interested to see how it performs
YES, EXACTLY!
I’m right on the money with you. The reason the military chose a 1/7 twist with 77 gr rounds was so to stabilize the bullet out to longer ranges, not to mention they needed a bullet that was able to penetrate multiple mediums wether it be the brush in the jungle of Vietnam or brick and mortar in the Middle East, or even person to person. I personally don’t want my bullets to do that. I’d like them to instantly spread its energy on impact. I consider it an insurance policy for others around me. I carry 30 rounds of this shit in 3 of my mags at home.
Be on the lookout in a month or so, I'm planning on testing exactly how well the Vmax will do going through barriers.
As far as overpenetration, I've said in other videos but I believe it's an over hyped issue. Statistics say that we'll probably miss some shots anyway. Trained and presumably experience LEOs miss most of the shots they take anyway, according to the paper Handgun Wounding Factors And Effectiveness. It's not like the shots that hit the target, and maybe go all the way through will be more of a threat than the ones that most likely will miss entirely. I'm planning on doing some overpenetration testing in the future too.
When you dropped the bullet and I heard the scream I died laughing 😂
We use the 55grain V-max for deer hunting in Wisconsin and we have no problem killing deer with that bullet. Deer have tougher hide that a human, I'm sure it will penetrate a human even better. News flash, Most State Police Troopers use either v-max or hollow points in their ar15 duty rifles. The reason is you want that bullet to explode inside the bad guy, dumping all the energy and completely ripping the inside of a person apart. When you use a bullet that stays together and completely passes thru a bad guy you just wasted that bullets energy as its flying somewhere else now, and when the bullet remains together it does not expand and causes a much smaller wound channel, and the bad guy will probably still be in the fight. Also, I guarantee if you hit a human in the arm or hand with a V-Max, that arm or hand is now GONE!. Ballistic gel is junk!
Totally agree. My AR is loaded with Hornady 55gr Vmax.
kyle using fmj on the assailant arm also has a blowing wound effected, just wonder how big the wound this fragmenting round can make if hit centre mass of the hands or legs.
I’m forced to agree.
yeah but if that hits somebodies limb, that limb is gone, bucko. that is an incapacitation.
Damn right. The first few inches of whatever it hits will be chunky soup.
They will be looking for a one arm man, or at least a one hand varmint. Actually, a varmint will not put forth their best paw.
You could say they got.... Kyle'd....
I once read an autopsied report of an armed man put down with two rounds of 223 at close range inside a living room. The two rounds created a void the size of 6” inside his chest and he was dead before his body hit the floor.
Thanks for the video. I thought it was interesting and thoughtful to see the simulated hand/arm hit.
I'm a country boy with a small farm (cattle, horses, chickens, etc.)
The FIRST round in my magazine is a VMAX. The rest are 62gr gold dots. Best of both worlds. I'm a million times more likely to need to pop a yote or an opossum in the henhouse. Vmax are insanely effective. If I were to need to use it for SD, I can guarantee that the first round will hit like a freight train, and the rest will be bonded SP. Its also nice to have the GD in case a yote or the like doesn't drop. Typically not the case the VMAX are lights off on everything I've used them on, whereas the GD gets the pen but can take a few seconds to do the deed on large critters (still dead) If you insist on using varmint rounds, go as heavy as you can. I.e. 60gr vmax, or preferably the 60gr. ballistic tip.
Same here ol buddy…live in a holler eat up with coyotes and I’ve got mags with 40s…53s…60s…ready
Good information to know and I enjoy all your videos
Thanks for the demonstration. I guess that’s what follow up shots are for. Lol
How many licks to get to the center?
The ballistics are amazing on this round. With a 25 yard zero I can shoot 450-500 yards with no holdovers. It’s like a 204 ruger
You and I wish it was like a .204 ruger. It gets it closer but .204 still flatter and 3-4 inches better in the wind. 223 does not have enough capacity to push it faster. 3300 fps 53gr vs 3700-3800 40gr with similar BCs. With a zero of 300 yards (25 yards near) you have holdovers it will have close to 30" of drop. If you don't hold over you are going to miss badly. And from 125-225 yards you will hit 4+ inches too high so you might have to hold UNDER or you will miss the varmint.
Closer to .204 I will agree but no holdover at 500 yards? I guess if you are shooting a huge 6 feet x 6 feet target but not varmints like PDs.
@@Physics072 204 is a dying cartridge, it’s expensive and getting harder to find. Also your numbers are off. I see only a two inch difference at 400 yards and three inches at 500 yards, give or take . Plus the versatility of being able to use heavier bullets for bigger game. With 223 being so cheap and available every where, I can shoot thousands and thousands of rounds while my 204 sits in the safe. But enjoy your gun, it’s still a sweet shooter
if it hit an arm on a side shot like you said that arm is either coming off or unuseable and bleeding fast, if it hits an arm that is holding a weapon that weapon is getting dropped. and in a frontal shot forget it. i personally use hornady superformance gmx which is barrier blind, penetrates about 19 inches in my testing with great wounding but these varmint rounds are no joke
Thats what ive seen in multiple videos showing actual ballistix and evidence. I saw a gun forum thread questioning v max for home defense and a lot of the haters in their seemed to try arguing that it wont even penetrate the bad guy and its just amazing how ignorant some people are.
I want as much of that bullet IN the burglar shredding his arteries and such, instead of the idiots who apparently think they need green tips for home defense because they worry way too much about how deep the bullet goes when they SHOULD be worried more about how much of that bullet blows up inside the bad guy. I would choose a fragmenting/expanding bullet any day over something that's just going to go through the bad guy and then possibly my loved ones on the other side of the wall.
Oh man, I take it you have never gone hunting, No one hunts squirrel with an AR chambered in 556 or 223.
You're right, I don't. Pretty sure I was just listing animals that I found after googling varmint hunting tbh
Depends on if they are squirrels for the table or the squirrels that ate the wiring harness on your truck :-D
Seriously though, I do... but its the 40gr hornet SP on top of some trail boss or blue dot.
I'd use em for self defense. Good video thanks for posting.
Real! Same with Nosler 55 grain .223 varmint! Safe & effective 💯🔥
While they're not my first choice, i'd definitely take them if that's all I had available to me. Better than harsh language after all!
@@TheKalkara131 way better in a 11.5 barrel they penetrate a little better
Either use this ammo, m193, or m855 for home defense. Over penetration is exaggerated so use whatever you got available because even Tula 223 is still better than a handgun caliber.
I bought 1000 projectiles for 90$
I loaded em up for 20 cents per round. With powder and primer
Where did you find Vmax for that cheap? I finally found Nosler BT and am now sitting on about 5500 of them. They are built a little heavier and are super accurate out of my Varmint guns but I plan on loading some in Nickel Casings for self defense or home defense
Holy crap
Years ago I started using Hornady vmax for hunting coyotes, but had to stop due to the lack of expansion. The exit hole was exactly the same size as the entrance. I need a rapid expanding round. No big deal, changed flavors, solved the issue. But with the 2020 to now ammo shortage, you get whatever you can get your hands on. Well shit, I ended up with the same rounds in this video. I told myself, well that was years ago. Maybe they have improved and fixed them. Nope, exactly the same freaking issues. I so wish I had similar results as you got. I've never put one in gel, only in real fleash. On coyotes they act like FMJ. I am using a 24 inch barrel on my AR, maybe thats why. I did enjoy your vid, the audio was fine. Thanks for your hard work
U are literally the only person I’ve heard say this more barrel lenth should help in fragmenting not hurt
You shoot dogs. Lowest form of human walking the earth and you're apparently not even good at it. Gf
This video explains all of the reasons not to use varmint rounds for home defense by explaining and then demonstrating why it is ideal for my home defense needs.
To eaches own, use whatever you want. I try to explain why I think you shouldn't use it, back up that belief with statements or sources from people smarter than me, and then test it
placing the "arm" in front of the gel block is a great idea. I have never seen that before. I am going to incorporate that into my ballistic tests from now on. My "unscientific" test consists of 4 ply denim in front of a rack of pork ribs, in front of the gel block. My AR goes in my truck and I carry V-max in an urban, populated area. I carry 2 mags that are attached. My second mag is TAP or some similar round. If need be, changing mags might take an extra 1-2 seconds. JMHO
Thank you for this video. I agree with your conclusion but in my case keeping in mind the dense urban population I am expecting I cannot afford a shoot thru. BTW, I also have a 60 round mag of FMJ in case they decide to try and hide behind "cover"
ruclips.net/video/wUBg-Oa8_3E/видео.html this video isn't specifically about this topic however toward the end he places a rack of ribs in front of a big slab of side meat Infront of drywall and he does hit a rib bone in the test
I'd love to see varmint rounds out of short barrels like 7.5" - 12.5" to see if they provide the 12 - 18" penetration and still fragment.
If I ever get a Ar pistol, I may test this out. Thanks for the input!
Po Boy Special here on RUclips does his gel tests exclusively from a 7.5” 5.56 barrel.
Put it in Gordon and you know
Small fast bullets depend on their velocity to cause damage.. so choosing this type of round for an SBR is less than optimal
@@yurchikbelov1 Varmint ammo is designed to not penetrate as deep, usually based on a 16" barrel. If your goal is to kill varmints, that's when you would want the intended behavior. Varmint ammo out of the intended length would likely not give you sufficient penetration if your goal is to reach the 12"-18" FBI standard, which is based on performance on human sized targets. Shortening the barrel and therefore reducing speed could hypothetically make it so the varmint ammo doesn't break apart so quickly and penetrates deeper than they're design to. That's how it works if you look up gel test videos with Nosler Varmageddon in 300 blk out of shorter barrels.
Velocity is what determines whether or not a temporary wound cavity actually matters, and rifles have more than enough speed. That’s why the spec is only used for handguns. It may not have much energy going through an arm or a lung, but the point with these rifle bullets is that it doesn’t matter. The attacker is now missing an arm (a lot harder to shoot when you suddenly find one missing) or a lung (wind literally knocked out of you), and I still have twice the ammo in the magazine and half the difficulty landing followup shots compared to a handgun.
Everything you said is true, except it's not only used for handguns. Guys from the FBI have said that they use it for all of their ballistics testing, including rifles
My favorite hunting round in 223 . Nothing has walked away out to a little over 200 yards . Great for coyotes, wolves and deer . Not much left of the deer heart and lungs at over a 200 yard shot .
What 223 rounds do u deer hunt with ?
@@Coontaco304 m855 lol
I use fiocchi 40gr vmax 223 for my home defense ar15 bc I live in apartment from my own testing and videos here on youtube have proven to me its good round for home defense
I have these I’m home defense weapon...mainly because I am worried about my bullet traveling through a window and still going strong. I feel better about this round breaking up over traditional M855
M855 is also not a round I see commonly used for home defense. I rather doubt this round would break up after going through a typical home window however. Maybe something I'll try out in the future
I curious of the gel performance with a 10.5" barrel. Slowing it down might be the trick.
V max, aac blade, soft points, Barnes TSX, federal fusion are all top
Notch! Soft points are the best in my opinion
You're off in the vmax, the energy transfer is devastating to a person, that's why it didn't pop out far after penetrsting. You wouldve got about 12-14in if you didnt shoot high And that permanent wound channel is more than you'll get with a basic hollowpoint. That's been my experience
I cant imagine anyone taking one of those to the chest and them not stopping what theyre doing… 🤔
I can't imagine cops mag dumping into a guy and them still advancing, but body cam video proves it can happen. Can, being the key word. I know it's not likely, but the possibility exists, and I prefer to plan for it.
@@TheKalkara131 i mean, i agree to an extent. But 9mm/.40 moving at a 1,000 fps vs a varmint load dumping ALL its energy moving ~3,000fps is another level. Id be interested in seeing any data on an actual person taking one on those…
Great work btw.
Yep I live in an apartment complex… I’m also a bit of a beginner (it’s complicated). My plan is first 5 round of varmint and the rest pointed soft points!!! If things go do wrong I need more than 5 rounds in pretty sure over penetration would be the least of my concerns!!!
I'm sure there are better rounds but these days we gotta take what we can get. I'll go with a round like a 223 60gr ballistic tip over a 5.56 fmj or green tip in my home.
I’m relatively new to the AR platform (except for one day of training in Air Force BMT!). I understand your point of lack of penetration, but lots of folks don’t like fmj for defense either. So what do you recommend? At the minimum, the VMax dumps all is energy into the target...would probably at least put the target on the ground. Thanks
For starters, I'm a nobody with no real world experience. I'm the loosest form of law enforcement possible. But I personally use and recommend mid weight bonded soft point. 62gr gold dot is what I personally use
@@TheKalkara131 Thanks for the reply, and thanks for putting this content out there. I just watched a video on Hornady’s GMX 55g, which might be useful for SD.
If your someone who is concerned with over penetration there are much better loads that meet terminal ballistic standards such as Winchester 64gr Power Point, Federal 64gr soft point or the 77gr Tipped Match King. Light weight ballistic tips, M193 and M855 are all poor choices for SD/HD
www.ar15.com/ammo/project/self_defense_ammo_FAQ/ I'd recommend checking this out if you like to learn about terminal ballistics and which rounds meet the fbi specs in multiple calibers.
All of the rounds I listed meet FBI specs for non barrier work aka entry work or urban. Varmint loads do not meet the specifications for penetration depth while both 64gr soft points and TMK do.
I've read that in Iraq and Afghanistan thre were many instances where fmj bullets would go right through enemy bodies without dumping it's energy.. the wound channel would be similar to a 22lr with almost nonexistent temporary or permanent cavity, because the energy dump was happening too late when the bullet was almost exiting the body. Due to that I preffer ammo that does all the demage up front dumping all the energy 2-3 inches after entering soft tissue. Plus human organs are only a couple inches inside (unless you are 600lbs)..
That's true, that's why nobody really recommends just straight FMJ for self defense. The thing that people don't understand is penetration in ballistics gel isn't a 1:1 comparison with penetration in a human body. Ballistics gel is homogeneous, it's all just the gel. The human body is made up of different types of muscle, tissue, fiber, bone, tendon, ligament, etc. In addition, the 12-18" standard is accounting for the fact that in the real world, it's a little rare for your threat to just stand there and give you a perfect frontal shot.
@@TheKalkara131 yes, and all that muscle, bone, ligament etc will turn into mush after this much energy dumps into.. resulting in stopping the threat..
Haha!! I bet the "criminal" would have dropped his weapon!! Anyway,,good job guy!! Keep up the good work!!
Great Video! I agree with you. Sufficient penetration is absolutely needed to get to vital organs and immediately incapacitate.
Another thing to consider… how many people will fire ONLY one round at such close distances to a threatening person… I agree, varmint loads are not ideal, but when you hammer a human with 5-7 rounds in under 1 second or so.. not sure theyre going to still be up and coming. Nosler 64 grain bonded is king and any 68-77 grain BTHP will work too. If in doubt, like Clint Smith has said, shoot em until theyre no longer doing whatever it was that made you shoot them.
Yeah everyone is always talking about the 12” minimum like what if it hits something on the way or it hits a limb or hits on an angle, but if I’m having to fire my gun in a self defense situation I’m not firing just one round
And the reason why they call for 12-18 in of penetration from the FBI's because bone and muscle are a lot tougher then ballistics gel you can point your finger through ballistics gel, but you can't do that through a body, skin represents like 2 to 3 inches in ballistics gel, so it's just a representation the bare minimum is 12 inches the maximum is 18, does not mean it would do that through a body
is this the video that little finger was referencing when he said that bullets are designed to explode inside the body?
Definitely impressed by the V-max, though for my personal HD use I’d prefer Hornady 68-grain BTHP match. From what I’ve seen and read, it fragments but with a little more penetration. I’ll take that extra penetration just in case. V-Max would be my second HD choice.
I saw a one without redtip fmj v max same result?
At what point does a larger hole become more deadly than a deeper hole?
At what point does a deeper hole become mote deadly than a larger hole?
Hydrostatic shock?
Blunt force trauma?
A large hole that's only skin deep will hurt and maybe dissuade most people, but there are some that for whatever factors won't. Drugs, adrenaline dump, alcohol, high pain tolerance, any combination. The only sure way to kill a threat is to hit destroy the central nervous system, ie the brain. Which is a small target in a complex environment. Next best is destroy the vital organs in the chest, and you need penetration to do that.
I'm not a doctor or surgeon, but that's how I understand it.
I would like to see this with a nosler 50 grain btlf. A heavier varmint round that is made out of copper. It's gonna retain a bit more of weight in those chunks that break off.
The Nosler BTLF turn to dust in gel. I have firings of 40 gr from 5.7 x 28; pistol & rifle - and both completely disintegrate at ~2000 & ~2350 fps, respectively.
I can't say with 'absolute certainty' that the 50 gr would do the same in .223, but 99.999% sure.
On my channel, if you search "btlf", you'll see what I mean.
What I am curious about, though, is what sort of damage they do. I haven't seen anyone demonstrate how that dustification translates to tissue damage.
Maybe I'll get my dog's blood level checked and see if she has a copper deficiency...and let her dine on the pork shoulder after shooting it. hah!
I adree with some points but jst like over penetration isn't a huge issue..I dnt think there is a magic bullet..of course some are better than others but it still would cause a horrible wound...and with ammo being harder to get I'm not picky..I care more about repeating accuracy.but yeah especially for a freedom seed it doesn't penetrate very deep..have a great night brother thanx for the video
55gr Lead Cast with gas check make great home defense load .
This bullet performs amazing if you want the flattest flight out to 300m at least, easily. The light weight and a freaking nice bc makes an excellent combo.
Zero your dot at 36-50yds depending on dot height and you hit 2 inchew high at 110yds and 6 to 7 inches low at 330yds
Penetration isn't everything. You can use fmj in any caliber, but if the round doesn't fragment and transfer it's energy to the target, you will get less damage. Shot placement is the most critical thing. You can kill with a .22 round if placed right. Second is yaw, and tumbling to create a large wound channel. Third would be fragmentation. An arm is three to four inches thick so almost any round should easy pass right through. Rounds definitely perform differently on denim over ballistic gel vs no denim. Barrier penetration like house doors, car doors, and car auto glass are a whole other animal.
Penetration isn't everything, but it is the only sure way that you can control to stop a threat. Besides shot placement, which is king, I agree with you. Energy dump won't always stop a threat. Most of the time? Sure, but by that logic a lot of the time just showing a firearm will stop most encounters. You going to rely upon that? I'm not.
A load that will penetrate deep enough, in a large variety of situations, to hit and destroy the heart and other vital organs, causing rapid, massive blood loss is what I look for. But that's just what I look for, you do you.
can this gel be warmed up to say....36dC?
I agree with the soft point. But if you don’t have those I would 100% use these. They do enough damage to take out coyotes and hogs they will do fine against an attacker.
That round at self defense ranges will easily detach a limb for the rest of the body ...
Why not? Our engagement with a bad guy breaking into our homes will be very close range which is what our AR carbine was made for.
Any hunting round would be fine for personal defense.
I would compare it to a 55gn fmj, ironically people tout the fmj to be a great self defense round but when you compare a hollow point or polymer tip ballistic gel test to a fmj, the fmj loses every time. Your wound cavity will always be larger and more damaging with hollow points/polymer tips.
Can't believe I watched this smooth brained Gomer giving advice about life or death situation
You're welcome to do your own test, if you disagree with my statements.
One question. I’m running these 223’s out of my “ multi cal “ 5.56 AR. Also in my other magazines I am running Federal / Wolf / Winchester / TulAmmo and Grind ammo 223 rounds. Is that safe to do being it is a smaller caliber? I haven’t had any issues and I wouldn’t like to run into any. Some forums even a major rifle say it is fine and it will not cause problems. I have not seen anything negative but I’d like to ask real fellow shooters ....
I don't fully understand your question. It all comes down to what your barrel is chambered for. If it's a 5.56 chambering, then yes these will work fine. 5.56x45 NATO is just a slightly more powerful 223 Remington. Any 223 should be fine in a 5.56 gun.
Lol wow it popped up slow in the slow motion video thats interesting
I have shot 2 deer and a coyote with a 53gr vmax. Both deer were dropped instantly with no overpenetration. The coyote must have nine lives though, I got one in my hen house last year and tapped him with a 55gr gold dot SP, it ran away. Last week I got the same coyote in the hen house and tapped it with a 53gr vmax. Today it was on my game camera with a fist sized hole exit wound in the neck and it was acting as normal.
Shooting birds with vmax bullets is hilarious.
Superformance is too hot for vmax rounds. And Vmax rounds do better out of the shorter barrels. You get more penetration out of them in gel.
Black Dot ammunition sells a really nice 55 gr. HNDY V-MAX at a great price. I love them .
Good vid. I do think the whole 12 - 18" might be more important in handgun rounds, although not entirely irrelevant in even a rifle round. I personally think the amount of trauma is going to render someone pretty much out of the fight, but your point is fair that it does leave a slight chance, even if only slight. While someone might not go down from being hit in the arm...I think they are going to be a bit surprised to find their forearm, wrist & hand being vaporized.
I'll post a link to 3 vids I did of this same concept, but with .308. So, more of the same...well, much more. Maybe too much. It seems to me, for the VMAX, the .300 BLK might be the "Goldilocks"?
ruclips.net/p/PLe_-dU6Xp-kHds0yRbVmE8U6nfC8CwX4j
The FBI 12-18" standard is 100% geared toward pistols, and has absolutely nothing to do with rifles. (Im agreeing with you)
@@Valorius yup & if someone wants to not have faith in the .223, then ok...but doubters can just extrapolate, and imagine if this video was a .338 lapua, and a 200 grain SST that only penetrated 11" after fragmenting into pieces, and thinking that wouldn't stop an attacker...through an arm or not. It should make clear that "short of 12" isn't useful for defense" can be a ridiculous standard to always stick by.
A 5” deep hole in your chest is lethal as hell. I have taken large game with this ammo with body shots and they fell over. Hogs and a Corsican Ram all died.
Where did you hit the hog with the v-max? I would think if it hit the shoulder bone it wouldn’t make it through to vitals
i've seen 30.30 rounds penetrade further than 300winmag, the 300winmag explodes easier and leaves far more energy in the first inches. I realy love the Vmax53.the best in the hornady collection. I have 2 loads the lowest for 1holers @110Y and the extreme max load for untill 280Y varminting, in my CZ527 9twist
Those vmax 53 work in your cz? I tried those in mine and I don’t get a good group at all. Since cz changed their 223 to a 9 twist I haven’t been able to find any thing that groups well in it. While my older cz with a 12 twist I get 1/2” and 3/4” groups consistently with 40, 50 and 55 grain hornady vmax. I’m trying to find something that is as good in my 527 American, that’s the newer one with the 9 twist. I’m trying to have a lighter setup for coyotes because I park and hike 3 to 5 miles before I return to the truck.
check the weight, a lot off difference in weight see link drive.google.com/file/d/1hrb9oTiEXA8XUcsGtuYw76jcLoB0oTX9/view?usp=sharing
I'd be interested to see it shot farther away..I think u would get more penetration with a lower velocity..mayb a pistol ar would help too..it's going so fast it exploded with this type..
Lower velocity definitely would make this a better round. Andrew over at thechoppingblock tested a 300 blackout vmax load. The bullet was made for 308 velocities, and in 300 blackout it was pretty decent
@@TheKalkara131 thanx for letting me know that's good information..I'd really like a 300blk ar pistol..but it's a pain to buy right now . prices have gone up I'd like a short upper ...thanx again for the reply..I bought a box of these but haven't used em yet so wanted to look before I stuffed em in a mag.i should test em first anyway..hard when you get 20 to test but have to..✌️🙏
Ammo inc. makes a bullet using a 60gr vmax bullet for about 1/2 the price
I don't disagree with anything you've said here. However, if your trying to make the argument that something isn't a good choice for a defensive load, it would be a good idea to compare it to some things that ARE normally considered to be a good option for home defense. For example, any shotgun loaded with #2 birdshot or bigger, a sub compact 9mm loaded with some Hdy Critical defense or HST or Ranger SXT.
All in all, your tests tell me that the 53gr vmax isn't the WORST choice. No, it doesn't have enough penetration, especially after hitting a limb. BUT, if it hits a limb, it will nearly take that limb OFF, or at least make it inoperable. My bigger issue with the round is that even with no barrier, the penetration is minimal. If you're dealing with a threat that's on the larger side, this round will do a LOT of damage, but very little if any of that damage is likely to extend deep enough to reach a vital organ. If you're facing a determined threat, you need to penetrate the vitals to create the blood loss needed to incapacitate and stop the threat. I'm 6'2". Not the strongest looking person in the world, but nothing about me says "easy target". Therefore, it's reasonable for me to assume that any threat that endangers my life is also determined to follow through with their course of action unless and until I am able to stop the threat. Therefore, I require more adequate penetration.
In hindsight, I could have included a comparison round. But at the same time, I don't want to have to do that for every round I test. If you want to see a round I prefer, you can check out my speer gold dot video. I personally use the 62gr gold dot in my rifles.
Sorry..I just watched a guy shoot a pork shoulder wth Varment load and it nearly tore the shoulder in half..
To say "maybe 6" of penetration.. " my question is how deep does the bullet have to go to hit the heart or lungs?
Penetration in ballistics gel does not equal penetration in a human body. Ballistics gel is homogenous, the human body is heterogeneous.
Trust me, it'll hit vital organs in a whitetail deer. It'll saw a coyotes head in half as well. I don't know what the difference is, but the nosler ballistic tip penetrates better. Harder bullet??
Well the m16 A1 1:12 twist fragments the same way shooting 556 fmj 55grain and the people in Vietnam were dropping like flys, so how isn't it such a good choice
Under penetration is why 35-60gr Ballistic tip is not considered a good choice for HD. Not only do these types of rounds under preform in gel test they are also documented my many police agencies to underperform in OIS. If your looking for a Home Defense load that is not barrier blind and has deep penetration and explosive fragmentation 77gr TMK or 64Gr Power Point, Power Shok and Defense Tip are your best bet.
@@steviebleckley nope
IVE NEVER USED ANYTHING LIKE THAT FOR HUNTING BEAVER BEFORE ?? my buddy was right, I have been doing it all wrong.
Good video but way too long.
You have to keep in mind that if it hits any bone it will deflect it and slow it down more
From what I understand, at 3000 plus fps I think this would go straight through the bone shattering it, it will slow down but when it expands it is transferring all its energy into the target as opposed to going through and only transferring some. So wouldn't this be far more effective than ball ammo against a human? This round has more ft/lbs than handgun ammo for sure, I dont think anyone would survive a center mass shot. Just my opinion.
No, this round would not deflect at those speeds. It blows up shortly after entry at these ranges.
Paul Harell has shown that 22 lr will go through pork ribs, so it’s hard for me to believe these rounds won’t do the same.
@@LKaramazov There's a video that demonstrates even a BB gun pistol will go through (scalpula) bone...and even from ~10 ft away.
How far in are your vital organs? 6-8 or 12-18?
Ballistics gel isn't a 1:1 test medium. 12" in gel doesn't equal 12" in a human body.
@@TheKalkara131 Interesting results for sure! I am still going to use my 300 blk V-Max hand loads for HD. I've got thin walls and close neighbors (unfortunately). Cool video dude.
Stop saying “explode.” We don't want the Fed to find out Hornady replaced the lead with C4.
I understand his logic, but as a Marine with 2 tours, and now 5; years as an ER nurse i think the VMAX will be fine for home defense. In humans, vitals are not deep, 5-8 inches of penetration is enough. If you shoot someone holding a gun in the hands or arms the fight is over. I would love to have had VMAX ammo in Afghanistan. JMHO
Does he also think that 22lr is like a pellet gun?
No, obviously. 22lr is a spit ball from a McDonald's straw. Those annoying paper straws are 22 short
You have some class acts making comments here. Good job. You clearly explain your logic used to form your opinion. Your opinion is in line with the FBI and numerous other gel tests. Good job. Thank you.
I'm sure that FBI criteria is for handguns, no? I can tell you that this would be more lethal that 99% of legit handgun loads.
@@calangel no. You can assume this would be lethal 99% of the time, but you cant state that as a matter of fact. Shooting rarely happen where a person is standing head on and still. Bullets have to travel through arms, legs, the vertical length of a torso, or any other odd way to get to where they cause a lethal wound.
@@ETuss713 you can't state ANYTHING as a fact within the realm of terminal ballistics. A victim was shot over 20 times by LEOs with 9mm gold dots and lived to tell about it. An officer took a hit under the armpit area with a 22 caliber handgun/revolver and bit the dust.
Anecdotal? Sure. But it illustrates that these gel tests can't replicate all the scenarios that occur in real life. I'll say it again, if I was heading into a known fight I would never choose a handgun regardless of caliber over an AR loaded with these.
Have a good day sir.
@@calangel the tests represent penetration in human bodies. To your point, you never know the angle, path, or obstruction in which a round must travel through to get to a vital organ and is exactly why you choose a round with deeper penetration.
@@ETuss713 gel tests are not representative of real situations because they do not include a simulate for the one they will always have a chance of encountering: bone. Hollow points are known to fail at high rates due to contact with bone. Denim isn't anything close to a representation of hollow point effectiveness against the human target.
High speed rounds, such as seen in rifles, smash through bones with little degradation. That's what a year long, local LEO and federally involved ballistics test has taught me. As I said before, I'll never chose a handgun that passes a gel test over a rifle loaded with these if I know I'm going to combat with aggressors.
I shot an orange with one and it literally vaporized it. There was almost nothing left, never seen any other round do that. I don’t care what you shoot, anything traveling at 3200 fps is going to kill you. A .22 will kill and it’s half the weight and a quarter the speed.
50% entertainment 50% lets see what happens/fun lulz. i like fmj the best. but vmax works too. i wouldnt want to be on the biz end of either tbh. thanks for the gel test slow mo vid tho
Why FMJ's? I thought they're the worst choice of all, seeing as they don't expand whatsoever?
@@pieterveenders9793 wow... you've never watched fmj in a 223 then... they fragment like crazy
@@libertarianGO I know that's the case with cannelured HPBT's and military FMJ's, but I had no idea run of the mill 5.56 FMJ's fragment heavilly as well.
Bro is acting like a bad guy is going to "walk off" taking a hit in the toroso with a bullet that essentially turns a fist sized chunk of tissue into mince meat.
If 1250 ft/lb of energy is transfered to your chest, you're not going to be fighting anymore.
OK varmint rounds are not good for self defense, but people say a 55grain fmj coming out of an a1m16 with a 1:12 twist rate is very DEVASTATING to human body and is a good round because it fragment and just break to pieces from a 20inch barrel 1:12 twist, so if both rounds perform the same coming out of two different size rifles, then how is the varmint round a bad choice for self defense.
The depth of penetration. The 55 gr fmj punches much deeper into the body. That translates to reaching vital organs to quickly stop the fight.
@@ETuss713 I'm glad you explained it to me, cause I never understood that, but it make sense now. You exactly right fmj will reach vital organs then will pop, break and do crazy stuff. To were hps and varmints rds just fragment as soon as they hit with no hardly pentration
Your heart is 3 inches deep
And if your target is facing you front on, not moving, arms at his sides waiting to be shot, and you happen to shoot between his ribs then maybe it'd enough. Personally, I choose to run ammo actually marketed as self protection ammo, not varmint hunting.
After this video I think they're perfect for self-defense the purpose is self-defense not necessarily to kill the person.
And if the person threatening your life is high on meth and doesn't feel anything, what will you do? This load doesn't penetrate deep enough to destroy vital organs. Sure, he may bleed out in a couple hours, but you'll be long dead by then.
40gn V-max is the best choice if you want to stop someone instantly and not worry about any through and through problem, they explode and the hydraulic shock is going to put the brakes on anyone.
If 53gr vmax doesn't penetrate deep enough, for some reason I doubt 40gr will. I have an entire video on why I look for the penetration I do, and that's why I don't recommend varmint loads.
@@TheKalkara131 The actual hydraulic shock that the 40gn bullet delivers on soft skinned targets is horrendous. The 40gn pill at close range does so much tissue damage that a human would suffer so much blood vessel damage they would go into shock instantly. It is not just penetration that does the damage a highly frangible pill at hyper-velocity kills from hydraulic shock and massive shallow tissue damage - and guaranteed no pass through. But if you want good home defence then a 12g shotgun would be far more apt.
nah these vmax would absolutely wreck someone. would it be my number 1 choice? no. but if i had to use the vmax i would be perfectly comfortable using them. its not like id be using a single shot or bolt gun. id have a 20 or 30 round mag in my ar.
What’s your number one choice?
Lehigh Defense 62 grain Controlled Chaos Bullets handloaded, but if im just gonna buy some its Mk262 Mod 1. although 30 rounds of just about anything should stop the threat. @@IkfNorCalChamp
Shoot a squirrel with that and there will be nothing left lol
The flaw in your logic and testing is the “one shot one kill method.” V-Max works great with follow up shots. You shoot until the threat is no longer present. Not, “one shot” mentality. That’s only if you’re a sniper. Even then, their defense uses multiple follow up shots.
Two words “head shot” problem solved
That would break your arm in half and put a 3 inch hole in your chest and that is just shot one 😮
How would you know what’s effective ass wipe? Ever shot anyone? I know two different Green Berets that recommend this round specifically for home defense. I also know some SpecOps snipers that will use Hornady TAP (similar) for missions when there’s going to be good guys in the immediate area. Just show results. Don’t recommend.
It's my channel, I'll recommend what I want to. You have a channel too, you can recommend whatever you want. Don't like what I said? Don't listen, but don't tell me how to run my channel there bud.
Wow bro. Take it down about 20%..it's just his opinion. You think every military person in a specialized branch agrees? They might tell you that your people are wrong.
No One in SOCOM is issued or uses Hornady TAP. TAP urban loads or V-MAX is a poor choice for SD/HD or duty use. Ballistic tip ammo can meet terminal ballistics standards but they are heavy loads like 77 gr TMK.
Arm is gone then they are getting more hate immediately after. Dress the gel up in some clothes add a layer of pork ribs and shoot it like 5 times as fast aa possible
For me being a slim muscular guy i fear this round haha😳
If you shoot someone with this round they would have a wound so big that they would bleed out pretty quick. People sleep on this round but it has more energy than a 44 magnum.
Depending on how they're hit, that bleeding might not be arterial. Yes, they'll be bleeding but it won't be as much as a round that actually puts a hole in the heart.
As far as it having more energy than a 44 magnum, I don't see why that matters. It's a rifle round. I should hope it has more energy. And it only has the same as some loads, less than other 44 magnum loads.
@@TheKalkara131 the point I was making is that a 44 mag is a powerful pistol that is carried to defend one from bears. A 5.56 is more powerful. It’s simple. I use the 223 to shoot hogs and coyotes. I see the damage it does. It is a lot more powerful than what people make it out to be. I have 7.62x39 rifles 308 rifles 450 Bushmaster 300 win mag 45-70, 7mm mag, 300 short mag 30 30, 243 shotguns and various pistols. The 223 is the weakest of the bunch but to say it won’t kill is just pure ignorance. That being said I don’t use the Vmax bullet. Would not be my first choice of bullet. Now if you are using FMJ I can guarantee you that you will probably get over penetration. We shoot through 3/8 inch metal targets with them. A happy medium would probably be some type of soft point if you were using it for protection.
So I'm late but I feel a few things nees to be kept in mind. First clear and calibrated real organic ballistic gel are NOT comparable to each other at all and only the real one is analogous to animal tissue. Second penetration in any gel is not 1 to 1 equal with penetration in real tissue. Third your scenario leaves out the whole reason rifles are better than handguns. Energy. The hit to the arm you discribe would end the fight immediately as the guys arm would likely barely still be attached and his gun would for sure be on the floor. Not to meantion an arm has a major artery in it. It is likely the wound would be so devastating if the guy lived his arm would have to be amputated. Further you are not shooting a single shot rifle. It's an AR-15. You can put 3-5 rounds in a guy at most distances in a house in under 1 second with even mediocre skill level. So even if the arm shot is not effective the rest will be. This is a very good example of getting so far into the forest you can't see the trees.
I acknowledge that, in the vast majority of circumstances, this will get the job done. The simple presence of a firearm often is enough to deter a violent situation. I'm talking about the absolute worst case scenarios, someone is determined to kill you and for whatever reason, they're not feeling anything at all.
The penetration not being 1:1 doesn't really help it's case. The FBI standard is 12-18". The average human isn't that thick, in the torso. So, my guess is that penetration in a human body is less than in gel. Going off this logic, this round would possibly penetrate even less in a human body.
They're not the same, no, however Andrew from thechoppingblock and ar15.com, who's done a lot more testing than I and has talked to actual industry experts, has told me that clear vs organic gel create similar results for most handgun rounds, and for rifles, loads tend to penetrate deeper in clear gel. So, again, not really helping it, because that means in the “correct” medium, this load would penetrate even less.
I plan on trying a video comparing clear and organic gel, when I have the money. Ballistic dummy labs has a block of their own organic gel I'm looking at. It's not the same as the FBI spec, but it's organic. I've looked at legit, actual VYSE gel and making it myself. Unfortunately, it seems the minimum you can buy is a 25lb bucket for $350.
As a hunter I have seen real world results of bullet performance. I will take a bullet blowing up 5 " in over a bullet making the same size hole all the way through any time. Bullets expanding transfer energy quickly. FMJ bullets make holes all the way through with smaller wound cavities. I don't care what kind of drug their on a .223 vmax to bicep from the side is going to get the job done of canceling the threat from that person. I you have time to aim the ear will do the job even faster.
Most SD situation are face-to-face and less than 25 feet. Now, are we talking about a critical HIT or eliminating the target??? Military training for CQB is a 5-shot group, 6" target in 3 seconds @ 7 yards. But his is HOME (SELF) Defense. My recommendation is "Use what you got" ... The OLD Sarge!
Use what you got is a good way to look at it. Even a 22lr is better than harsh language. As to critical hit or eliminating the target, they're one in the same. If I'm employing my firearm, it's because a threat has already reached a lethal level of force. I'm doing whatever I can to stop that threat as quickly and efficiently as possible. A kill shot does that.
@@TheKalkara131 In the military a CRITICAL HIT (reducing fighting capability) and Terminate/Eliminate (non-functional) are two different terms. I just wanted to clarify for your subscribers ... The Old Sarge!