A Different method for radiant heated floor joist installation. Simple and Cheap!!!!!!
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 28 фев 2022
- Here is a method to retrofit radiant heat in an old house. This method requires no heat plates or fancy manifolds. The radiant tubing heats the space between the floor joist and warms the floor up. I have developed this method to simplify the process and save money so radiant heated floors can be more affordable. I consider this a good DIY method for installing your own radiant heat.
My neighbor used the under floor plates when he put it in his house and WOW!!!!! is that noisy when the heat comes on. When I put it in my house I installed it between floor joists (wood I beam floor system) then I ran foil bubble foil between the floor joists and stabled it to the wood flange. It makes a little cavity there that holds and directs the heat up toward the living space. I did this 20 years ago still works perfect. Learned a few lessons regarding heating with water heater vs conventional boiler vs condensing boiler.
I did it the same way you did it but with out the 2x4 sleepers. I found it to be a three man job. One guy pulling, one guy keeping the spool straight and tangle free, and the third guy handing out beers telling everyone not to worry it's going to be over soon.
At first I was thinking oh no he put the foil side down, but then I saw you double sided it. A+ sir!
Thanks David. It works real good and did not cost much to set up.
Ron, thanks for directing me to this video. This is going to be very helpful on my old house.
I'm a carpenter up in Maine. Been pounding nails for 47 years but all but the first 5 years has been commercial building, maintenance and repairs. I know big commercial steam heating systems fairly well but not residential and especially radiant. We have a 1000 square foot, 500 feet per floor, old house that has pretty good insulation in it that we heat with a pellet stove, and it works well. I'm not getting any younger, almost 66, and I want a more automatic system, but I don't want to put fin tube is as our rooms are very small so it's hard to keep the furniture away from the walls. Radiant is the way to go for me.
One of my nephews is building a new house right now and he put in radiant. I can't believe how well it works. I had never seen it before. I'm sold on it. I just can't afford to do it the way it is "supposed" to be done so I'm looking for alternatives. I figure if you did it this way before and it didn't work you wouldn't be doing it again.
Next, I'm going to watch your inwall system video. I have been thinking about that for the second floor. Pannel rads are way too expensive for me.
BTW, I buy a lot from supplyhouse.com too and have been for years.
Awesome Roy I'm glad to help and by the way that in wall heat works great too because I have done it in 2 of my houses where we could not get it into the floors. Supplyhouse is awesome.
Good job gives me idea's. Thank you for the video.👍👍
I couldn't imagine this working efficiently without plates...... put plates on and HUGE gains from this, no? ....
Thanks Bondo. Keep us informed as to progress on this.
Will do uncle Jim. I will follow u as to how this works while it's still cold out.
My house was built in the mid 80's and really efficient with forced central air. I was just thinking about doing something like this to tie into my outdoor wood/waste oil boiler that heats my shop. Looks good 👍
Thanks Andy. It would be much more comfortable then your forced air. Does not cost a bunch to do it either.
³3
Great info. 👍
Very good. A game changer.
Bondo very helpful thx. So it works well even if your basement is not insulated? Our house is old and not insulated well but we do have all new double insulated windows.
Run mine in the joist bays. Works great. Reflective foil and insulation, tankless water supply.
Yes same here in my own house. Heats great.
I am thinking about using a tankless water heater as well. What temperature do you set it at? 120 degrees? Probably quite a bit lower at 85 or so? Thanks in advance.
good job bondo
Thanks a lot.
Really love these radiant heat videos. Do you think the insulation panels you used whether the double-sided foil or the ones from The Big box store work better than basic bat insulation? Or is there a cost consideration? I ask because I have several rolls of bat insulation left over. Thanks again Bondo you keep making them we'll keep watching them.
I have a friend who did just fiberglass insulation under the tubing and it worked well. This was just cheaper and easier and I know it works. This house heats real easy even before when I just had the in the wall heat going in the lower area.
It’s weird how people explain “cheap-or inexpensive” as not cost effective! Spending more money is not the same. Cost is such and interpretation. I want to be warn in winter, cool in summer. Yet not paying til perdition. Nice job, well explained.
Thanks Allen. I think this is the most cost-effective way to get radiant in an old house. In a new build we have laid the tubing in from above before putting the plywood deck on. Just cut grooves in the floor joist with a chainsaw for the tubing. This saved so much money and time because it was a crawl space. LOL
@@bondobuilt386 would an inspector ding you for cutting into joists?
@@hickorydragon8114 We cut only a tiny bit to fit the tubing. So no they didn't ding me.
@@hickorydragon8114 ruclips.net/video/pfx-2glUq3A/видео.html
My experience of not being against the flooring does not seem to heat well.
I always used heat spreaders which made a big difference.
But if it works great idea, big fan of hydronics over forced air.
Is this for a clients house or your own?
Cheers from Oz
This is in my rental house I am fixing up. I did this method in my own house and it works great. You can also send a little bit hotter water through the tubing not being right against the plywood and it will help heat better and not hurt your floor. Well insulated structure helps tremendously.
pretty damn creative.
Thank you and it works awesome.
I really like that system....I am always a fan of methods that can be easily accessible and undone if things stop functioning...as opposed to having to rip up a hardwood or concrete floor....After this last blast of cold weather, how has the system held up? I am told this type of install is not as efficient, but thought perhaps adding batt insulation would also help keep the heat from dissipating from the floor...
I have this in my own house for the last 12 years and it is super toasty in here. and it's 12 degrees today. I put the foil bubble wrap insulation over out in the floor joist.
So if you don't insulate it, will it just heat both the main floor and the basement some?
Air is a poor conductor of heat therefore this method is going to create lag in responding to cold temperatures which will directly influence comfort. Many people would simply increase the temp to compensate which will of course increase cost. Therefore, this will not be the best solution for all applications. Pex heat transfer plates are much less expensive now as there is competition from overseas and are now $1.50 for a 4' plate at big box stores in quantity. Also, better insulation is going to better direct the heat where intended. Foil faced batt insulation would again improve the system in responding quickly.
It would be great if you could use a laser temp gun on the floor to show the temp of it! thanks
Great vid! I have fuel fired hot water baseboard now and wanted to switch to radiant. Do you think this will help save fuel? What temp does the boiler operate at?
You will get more bang for your buck investing in insulation and weatherproofing. Infloor heat is not more efficient, just more comfortable.
Tube talons or plastic clamps with a nail pre installed on the clamp are less expensive and more suitable for installation of pex tubing than the metal electrical clamps you used. Also if you ran your insulation in the joist space and maintained a 2” gap between the heated
Do you think a radiant system like this (tubes in floor joists) would work OK for a house/camp on piers? Meaning no enclosed crawl space. I'm thinking that each 2x12 joist bay would essentially be (from top to bottom): bottom of subfloor, pex pipes, small air gap, 2" foam board (reflective side up), rest of cavity filled with fiberglass or rockwool batts, tyvek run across joists with all seams taped, plywood for finished/exposed surface (all joints caulked). Air under the structure would obviously be really cold (in Upstate NY), so I'm concerned this wouldn't be efficient. Thoughts?
I think this could be done but I think I would eliminate the Roxwool or fiberglass and have a spray foam contractor spray and air seal it up again the 2" foam then put the plywood on to protect the foam. I definitely would NOT put fiberglass in there It will hold water and mold IMO.
@@bondobuilt386 Interesting idea. I was thinking keep it available to open back up for any possible repairs down the road. If this was NEW construction, I would just use Warm Board or something like that to get the pex above the subfloor...but this would be a retrofit. I never use fiberglass anymore, Rockwool is so much better to work with and better with moisture. Maybe if I spray foamed around the 2" foam board to really seal it up, then used Rockwool. I guess at that point, might as well just go spray foam like you said! Thanks for the advice! Wish you were closer to my area of CNY, I need some help with some concrete work...haha!
@@itas0r Spray foaming the 2" foam or even 2 layers of 2" foam might be a lot more cost effective for ya and easier to access if you need to later. You can spray around the edges of board foam with the big cans of foam. .
@@itas0r ... spray foam costs more but that also provides better R value than anything else PLUS seals up cracks better than anything else PLUS adds some structure, like gluing everything together. Cover everything up with 1/4" plywood and you'll be set for decades. BTW, house wrap makes noise in the wind so avoid that. Oh, one more thing... mice don't like to chew on spray foam.
You’ll want to cap those short loops on your manifolds. The water is going to take the path of least resistance and not flow as much through your runs
Yes you are correct. I have a shut off that keeps it from flowing. Before I shut the valves I could not bleed air and I realized what you are saying. LOL
Thanks Andy
Very much appreciate the videos. Not sure I understood it correctly, but it seems that you are twisting over the runs at the beginning of the run. If so, what is the reasoning for this?
If he didn't twist the tubes, he could have kinked the tubes as it was too tight of a bend.
I have a friends house in Catskill NY who hired two local horror show contractors to install a kitchen and two bathrooms. I was hired to go up there to evaluate the work done and install the cabinets . I was shocked at what they were trying to pass off as professional work . Really they tried to pass off a doubled over 1/2 durarock concrete board as a mud job . There was a plumbing job done by a unlicensed guy from the local bar with no vent pipes or license . My guess he didn't like roof work . So I really respect your channel and the work you do . if you work in that area of the state let me know . Im certain I will be doing the hiring from now on. My friend is a very trusting guy and I would never ever let this happen to him again
Thank you. We do not travel for work because we get so much right here local. There are people that wait a year for my services because they do not trust anyone else to do their work. I do almost all my work myself because when I hire it done it almost always gets messed up. Time is my only issue. LOL
Can I hire you to design a in floor heat system in a slab? Thanks
I just put R19 batt Insulation by my rim joist. Do you think the 2 inch foam u used is significantly better?
There are a bunch of ducts and pipes in the way in my basement so the batt Insulation was just way easier
Batts are way old school
ruclips.net/video/13y0aj6XP1o/видео.html
@@shockingguy Yup I agree
Ya buddy the 2" will work twice as good at least. Spray foam around them with can foam. Cut them a little smaller. The fiberglass gives 0 air seal and poor insulator. If you can't get foam in some spots use Roxul insulation batts. The mineral wool is mush better air seal then fiberglass.
@@bondobuilt386 dang. My cheap quick improvement kinda sucks then? Well at least I learned something thanks for the reply Bondo
@@cheshstyles your welcome. If you fix it with foam just put the fiberglass back in to add extra and not waste it. With the foam and the fiberglass you will be golden. 👍
What is the supply temp for this radiant install ?
How efficient is the heating with the gap between the blocking and the floor ?
pipes directly on the wood will transfer heat quicker, but this works fine as long as you trap the heat in each bay. I actually used this method about 30 years ago to take the chill from my kitchen floor, except I used scraps of 3/4" coper pipe. (one run in each bay) I also avoided going all the way to the rim joist so as not to attract mice or bugs from outside. After all, I didn't need to heat the space under the cabinets.
@@rupe53 Awesome thanks for that.
It works super good but the pipe against the floor is a faster heat up but way more expensive to instal.
From an HVAC engineer:
Some of you naysayer posters are trying to explain something you don't fully understand, leading to incorrect conclusions. Several negative responses to this thread are simply incorrect or misleading in their framing. The way this guy does this radiant system does work, although with some performance differences from a more conventionally design professionally installed system. The main difference to time lag when an increase in temperature is needed. If he sets his thermostat to the same temp 24/7, time lag is not an issue. Yes, the hot water tubes heat the air, which slows heat transfer. The hot water tubes transfer heat in two ways. Convection and radiation is involved. One, via direct contact with air, which stimulates convection between the hot water tubes and the cooler wood floor material. Radiant heat (IR radiation) will also radiate out from the tube, striking some air molecules and further warming them, and also striking the wood, transferring some heat. However, convection is likely transferring most of the heat as the air in the floor cavity warms up. It is true that substances like wood don't conduct heat well compared to aluminum metal often used in radiant floor installations. However, wood conducts heat well enough that a sufficient amount heat can theoretically transfer in a short enough time to keep up with the heating load of the building. An overall well insulated building will require a smaller heating load and thus making it easier for this DIY slower response radiant system to work. Even though wood and air are poor conductors of heat, they do still transfer heat, just more slowly.
You all speak about efficiency with only with a partial perspective of the physics. As long as the flow heat transfer within the floor cavity is vapor sealed to keep the warm air in the floor cavity, and the floor system is within the insulated envelope of the building, than no energy is lost in the slow transfer of heat through this radiant floor system that relies on local convection in each floor cavity.
Also, I am an HVAC engineer. Running a water loop hotter through a radiant system is not necessarily less efficient as long as the flow manifold and tempering valve are set up correctly. This is especially true in the range of temperature increase that Bondo Built is suggesting.
Once you understand the principals of thermodynamics combined with green building science, you will begin to see a lot of work arounds utilized in DIY approaches that can often be smart economical choices for a final system that performs very close to the professional much more expensive approach. Its also VERY easy for people to make mistakes that waste energy or effect system performance in a negative way. With good engineering, DIY can be cheaper and better for some approaches.
Radiant heat is a more efficient at keeping occupants feeling warm in a building so that the actual air temperature can be lower while one still feels the same level of warmth as with a higher air temperature. If this guy is using this form of radiant heat versus a conventional forced air system, then he has improved the system efficiency simply by switching from forced air to a radiant floor system.
BTW: I would recommend a foam insulation board under your joint with the silver radiant side facing up into the cavity. Maybe that the kin you used. Also, your system performance will work best if the foam board un the floor joist is air sealed well with spray foam so that the warm convection air cannot leak and migrate to the basement, especially if the basement is not sealed insulated to be within the envelope of the main structure.
May your DIY approach be smart and your success be bountiful.
Yes, without metal conductors in direct contact with the floor, there is more time lag between thermostat calling for heat and getting that heat upstairs. But metal, conducting plates in contact with floor also provide an *easier* path for heat from heated joist space to escape up rather than down. So, with the metal plates, a higher percentage of heat from the pex tubing will be directed to the upstairs. Without metal heating plates he's "wasting" more heat to the basement, even if the joists were perfectly airtight.
If upstairs thermostat is set to 70 then the upstairs temp will stay at 70 with or without metal plates. But if basement temp is 60 with the metal plates, then the basement temp will be higher than 60 without the plates, and it will cost slightly more fuel & money to keep upstairs at the same 70.
Newton's Law Of Cooling says that, all else (surface area, R-value) being equal, the rate of heat loss is proportional to temperature difference. That's why it cost more to heat the exact same house on a colder day. Assuming the floor (subfloor, floorboards, carpet, etc.) has the same R value as the insulation below the joist, then more heat would flow to the colder basement than to the warmer upstairs.
Hopefully, the R-value below the joist is higher than R-value above the joist but that higher R-value below will always be partially negated by the larger temperature difference.
He's saying his method is cheaper, easier & safer (his floating pex is less likely to be pierced if someone screws into floor from above). He's not claiming it's just as efficient.
Metal plates are used when the heat demand for the area cannot be met with suspended tubing. Plates will double the transfer of heat to the floor. Certainly this un engineered system will work to some extent.@@edt5276
Where does the water used for the system, ends up at? From what I've seen, everyone says it cant be re used on the rest of the home (shower, or kitchen)
These are closed systems, typically with some kind of glycol included to inhibit corrosion. So it must be a separate system from the potable water, but even if it were just water, the pressures and temps are much too low for normal hot water usage in a home. You may occasionally see a common boiler used for both, but it would have 2 chambers or a separate storage.
Most DIY people will insulate the basement, install a 100,000 BTU boiler on a single zone, use transfer plates.
Maybe another FHApost under that beam joint
Joe funny you notice that I am impressed. We added another 2X10 and layer of plywood the other day because the center beam was only 2 2X10 and 1 layer of plywood. LOL My next move is to put a 6" channel iron upside down against the beam and spanning from both posts in the middle section. There is a 1/2" sag in the beam I want to get rid of. If the steel don't work I am adding another post. Nice observation. Like I said I am impressed
How about an update, hows it working?
It works so good. Unbelievable actually.
@@bondobuilt386 if you listened to all the "experts" you'd think it wouldn't have worked. Im glad it works. Do you supplement additional heat or does this work as your sole source?
@@imheretolearn770 Actually I was heating the entire house with the tubing zone that was behind the brick walls. So the rest just made it work better.
Terry keeps you busy. Must be you got no snow to ride
Joists
yes, joists, not joist-es
Why didn't you make a rack too hold the tubing so it would unroll for you freely ?
I wish I had one or made one. Would have saved time. LOL
What about the danger of radiant floor heating emiting EMF radiation?
Can this method be the primary source of heat?
It can be a primary heat source if you do a heat loss calculation and have the system designed by a professional. This example is very hit or miss with no real expectations of the outcome. Will it work? Yes to some degree. Will it be efficient? Probably not.
u can buy mylar rescue blankets 15.00 for ten, 97 pecent raidiant heat reflectant.. best price buy roll 278.00 same product emegency blankets way cheaper did a cargo trailer big succes, also my basement celing saved 82.00 a month
Thanks where can these be found for sale?
@@bondobuilt386 found on ebay, not sure where else
@@justinbodey7962 Thanks
Air is an insulator. You need alum transfer plates attached to the PEX then making contact with the floor to allow for heat conduction. The radiant panels below the airgap reflect infrared, Foam will not stop infrared energy. 90% of the heat will be transferred through conduction and NOT convection. The intention is NOT to heat the airgap below the floor. The airgap is only to trap the 20% radiant heat reflected by the alum sheets at least two inches below the PEX. FYI radiant alum sheet in 16x ? rolls made for this are available with a paper back for stapling between joists.
All I know is this works awesome because we live in a super cold area and I have done this in several houses including mine. I did use the 16" in my own house and stapled between joist
That’s a lot of holes in those floor joists. What could go wrong😂
Sorry to be a killjoy, but I doubt this will work very well. I'm not a physicist, but I know a bit about thermal efficiency in homebuilding. In-floor radiant heat has been around a long time and effective transmission of heat energy requires direct contact with a heat-conductive floor surface in order to radiate that heat. That is best done with the tubing imbedded in a layer of conductive material like concrete, with a conductive floor surface above (such as tile) that "radiates" the heat. Other materials like carpeting, wood, or engineered floors tend to soak up the heat and not radiate that heat outwards. The fact that it was warm up in the joist cavities indicates convection, not radiation (radiation heats objects without heating the air. Convection heats the air). While energy is never "lost", most of the heat energy in these tubes will transmit to the air which will in turn warm the joists, subfloor, flooring material above, and the basement area. That's a lot of mass to warm up before it ever reaches a human upstairs. True radiant heat is effective and efficient because it doesn't try to warm up the air, it radiates directly to the occupants. This is why the sun feels warm even on a cold day despite being millions of miles away with the vacuum of space between it and the Earth. It's all about thermodynamics and the ability of materials to absorb, emit, and transmit heat. It may be "cheap" to install, but it won't be cheap to get any meaningful heat upstairs.
ruclips.net/video/Z_37XXFIWCE/видео.html
This video shows several radiant methods mine included and they all work. My house is set up my method for 10 years and it works great.
@@bondobuilt386 Glad you're happy with it. But in your linked video, the trainer even said that the method you chose requires higher water temperature--which means less efficient. Retrofitting radiant heat in the basement means you have to conduct that heat through the subfloor and flooring materials--and wood is a poor conductor. Not to mention the heat loss to the basement. The only systems I've seen that work even marginally well from underneath use aluminum plating to make direct contact with the subfloor (the second method in the video).
@@audiobrad99 I agree that the plates will heat floor up faster but I just show people how they can do radiant heat DIY and not go broke doing it. Thats why I do these videos. Thanks for the feedback buddy I like different perspectives that's how we learn and grow.
@@trophyfishn9757 Not just faster transfer, the plates ensure directed transfer. You want the highest amount of heat possible directed to the upstairs. Without the plates, you're heating the joists, the cavity air, and the basement. Very inefficient due to heat loss and the higher water temps needed.
@@trophyfishn9757 Nope. LESS heat transfer to the upstairs without the plates and more transfer to structural members and the basement. Thermodynamics.
One thing is the same .you plumbers are hacks when it comes to the framing.
And that rat nest of tubing yikes. I understand you want to get your equipment off the ground but 8 inch would of been lil better give you some more room up top in the rats nest area. All good i liked your video bro.
And dog is cool to
🤣🤣🤣 OMG
Cheap is expensive
In some cases. Not this one.
Just so you understand that the holes you made in the joist are to wide and you just lost the strength of your flooring of your house and just so you understood that you are going to have to beef up your joists because it is the law or you are going to have problems down the road. Sorry for the bad news I am giving you
Not all them. Just some of them!
"joistes" ...It's the funniest thing ever. It's the sure sign of a redneck...