One thing that MUST happen imo is reverting the cc doesnt actually interrupt mobs change. Its just so frustrating wasting an interrupt because someone else tried to help with a stun or knock up only for the mob to start recasting instantly and wipe the grp. I dont care that the cutting edge pushers will be able to clear 2-3 levels higher because its easier to set up near infinite cc chains. What I and 99.999% of people care about is not having to micro manage every little cc in our grp just so we dont waste a lot of it. Even when we are in voice comms and I am pretty sure thats not the case in most keys that are run its just not fun.
Totally agree. These changes hit 99,9 % of player way harder than the top 0,1%. Of course it is not ideal that the best players in the world set up minute long cc chains if it is like DF. But they really shouldn’t make the game so much worse to pug. F.e. 2nd pull Grim. Oh 2 players tried kicking tremors when the evoker cast upheaval and now there is no kick when he instant recasts? Too bad the key is over
the thing with the interrupt changes , its the main reason healers heal a lot this season , i would say that should stay , but give all healers a curse dispell , and poison dispell , i think the cc changes are good for their " heal goals" , other than that , tank busters should be on a high cds rather than every 10 seconds , so you can handle two busters at least before runing out of cds and the pack is still alive.
@@sharkstaint1373 it’s just hell for pugs who don’t wanna be in comms. They shouldn’t cater the game to the top players who can manage that. They should always think about the 99% of player not the 1% They can just make gameplay a lot better by putting in more rotting unavoidable damage and not require every 3rd global to be a damn dispel
@@gooseg3822 if they remove that option again , the healer will not care about healing anymore like it used to , and its gonna be the same bs again , one stun and that's it , it will be 100% better for puging i agree , but i would say nerf the damage , then its a good middle ground , reverting the changes , will result in the same stuff they made the change for.
At worst it's 15 seconds or so because you have to get into the chapel. 15 seconds in regular dungeons that don't have mounting up (GB) is like 120 yards and GB (and SOB) could really have used some major skips.
The complex trash mobs are a huge problem.. makes M+ unpleasant. Hate putting in a GB key, nobody interrupts or uses CC. Everyone falls over. It’s then blamed on the tank or healer, and then they quit and my key is depleted. Feels bad.
In my experience, it's not actually the case that "nobody interrupts" but rather that multiple players attempt to interrupt the same cast or that someone stuns/knockups/a mob just as someone else is about to try to interrupt it - which essentially "eats" the interrupt.
The issue with difficulty in mythic+ is that the main original selling point of the system was that the difficulty was scalable and you could play it at the level that you want. As a medium skill level healer I’ll be honest, doing a Level 3 key is just as stressful as doing a level 7 or 9, because everything can one shot your group if you miss a mechanic or an interrupt. If blizzard wants to fix the system I think they need to stop making mythic+ harder and harder every expansion just because the top players are getting better and better.
Or just do what they did in the past, make the top guys do very high key levels because it frankly does not matter if the number is 12 or 25 for them. They hurt the lower levels so much with the squish and pugging low levels is extremely painful when little timmy that belongs in a +5 pre-squish is doing a +5 now, had way too much of that to the point where it's burnt me out.
idk what you on about tbh. I have ilvl 600 now returning player and doing 8s and it feels fkin chill. Sometimes random kill. But yeah, feels fine to me.
As healer the keys from 1-8 or 9 are harder than 10 and 11+ imo, because people don't know that they are doing most of the time and take therefore a lot more damage than players in higher keys. If you play on higher level your group usually knows (in general) what to do, how to cc etc. and you will have to heal less and get more time to cc yourself and add to the dmg.
Feels bad that the heroic raid is WAY easier than M+, but gives the same tier of gear. The current heroic raid is essentially "stand in the right spot and avoid the bad flashy mechanics," while M+ is "same as the raid, but with much higher healing and dps checks, also make sure an abilitiy is interrupted every 3 seconds for the entire dungeon." Classes aren't balanced enough to warrant the CC requirements. I main heals... Why does my shaman have twice as many keys bound as my priest? If there is only one spot for a healer, then shouldn't the functionality across classes be similar to fulfill that role? I'm not saying give every class the same abilities with different names and animations, but balance their utilities better.
@@CsStoker Except what people refer to as 'catering to 1%' is bad for everyone involved, including the 1%. It's just bad decisions across the board, not catering to anyone.
Pretending like the healer and tank problems are just going to solve themselves is a choice. They need to just rip the bandaid off and give tanks/healers something to make them FUN not just more difficult than dpsing.
This is my take on Mythic+ as multi 0.1% title holder IN A PUG - no comms. I think that the biggest issue with mythic+ is that it released as something you do and can push through while waiting for that one or two days of a raid. Or, if you are a casual, who does not want to, or cannot, spend hours playing. Go in, go out, 30 minutes, done. Because there really had not been anything challenging to do before mythic+ released in terms of PvE. BUT! The higher you go, the less you can play. To a point, where it takes even several hours to be either accepted to a key, or to have people of equivalent skill join your key. And it gets even worse if you are not a meta slave. And thus the whole purpose of mythic+ has been defeated. Mythic+ should IMHO be COMPLETELY RANDOM solo mode. Or it should have a solo mode with separate rankings. You would queue up for it the same way you do for heroic dungeons, you would get random 3 DPS, 1 Heal, 1 Tank of any class from the people that are in the queue based on their Raider.IO. Let's say it would be brackets of 100 score that would play together. This way you could come online for those 30 minutes after you come home from your 9-5 job, play a competitive fun endgame mode without having to worry about meta slaving or finding people to play with. Go in, go out, have fun, over. And same as heroic dungeons, there would rewards, SUPERB ones, for queing as a Heal or a Tank, increasing in value based on score. ( of course you would need that rio to be done on that particular role )
Get rid of forced depletions. Mythic raiders can bang their head weeks on end against the same boss over and over until they down it, players should be able to bang their head against a keystone level until they time. Stop punishing people for trying and not succeeding. The lack of success is punishment enough. There is no need to add insult to injury. Especially when you consider at higher mythic keys so many trash mob mechanics are one shots, the number of encounters a mythic+ player must perfect to time those keys when you account for all those trash encounters plus the bosses across those myriad of dungeons far eclipses those of the 8-10 boss fights a mythic raider must learn and yet the mythic raiders can pound their faces to oblivion if they want week after week without having to worry about losing progress if they fail. It really makes no sense and its what we call STUPID design.
Agreed. I can live with uneven scaling (like from +11 to +12) and the 15 second death timer. But, for the love of god, remove depletions. Or at least, remove depletions once you get to +10. Beyond this key level you're not doing the keys for gear - it's simply just for personal progress and fun. I got to 3k a while ago and unsubbed because it stopped being fun in any way. I'm simply never coming back if they don't remove depletions. I don't get much time to play and spending 90% of my time trying to get into the only key I want, only to deplete because one person missed a kick or a mechanic is not fun.
I dont even think the timer is the biggest issue or even the key depletion. There were way less people saying we need to stop keys depleting before TWW - before they did the m+ key level squish + added 15sec death penalty + nerfed the tanks and healers + introduced harder interrupts/no cc interrupting. I think what we can conclude from all of this is that the death timer was a mistake (that could have been countered with better GY/spawn-point design...but isnt), cc-change was terrible and really bad for m+ and that combined with harder keys and weaker tanks led into a lot of people feeling season1 keys being way too hard and not fun. It did not also help that the crest change aka. making completing the dungeon reward *something* took until 2/3rds of the season to be fixed. I'm pretty hopeful that if they remove the death timer and allow cc's to work more as interrupts again the majority of immediate issues will resolve pretty well. Keys depleting was not a problem when one pull at the start of the key did not brick the whole key 90% of the time and when there is an actual reason to finish the key overall. Since Blizzard has teached m+ community to enjoy big pulls and speedrunning for years, I feel the change from timer to deaths would just slow down keys and bring a whole new level of toxicity. I sometimes feel the 30 minute keys are a bit long and I definitely do not miss the 45-60min keys. Frankly making ANOTHER game mode in the spirit of challenge modes could be a thing for those players that do not enjoy the timer based key running . That could be pretty easy to implement and have it as a separate event like plunderstorm or one season test run. I find it odd that they are asking feedback for a dramatic change before considering the several small things they altered before this particular season.
Unpopular opinion: I had the most fun in M+ in Season 3-4 of Shadowlands. It felt really good to progress from 15s to 16s, it was a milestone... then from 19 to 20, and then each key above 20 that I was able to time. We were doing big dam, big heals, working and coordinating as a group... and chit chatting in between... DF S4 and TWW S1, with the squish of levels... it does not feel as good!
@@Nightstalker314 My personal opinion - I think the squish left people feeling badly... I have been consistently getting my portals since Shadowlands (lvl 20, now 10), but I have friends and guildies who were only doing 12s and 13s before the squish and now they are barely succeeding in 7s and 8s.. it's demoralizing. There isn't a gradual increase in difficulty anymore, there are giant leaps that discourage many players from progressing. It felt bad to me early on in the season, when I was still learning the dungeons and rotations, to be worried about not completing a 4 because the jump from 3 to 4 was too much... it's far too punishing now. With the former, I was able to progress and learn as I climbed in difficulty. There is no more of that... Casual players = less than 8, Elite players = 8 and over. Where do the middle land? No where. - That's just my opinion.. no one has to agree with me.
100% agree with your opinion. It feels the philosophy changed from being powerful and optimising that power, to entering every dungeon always being one missed kick away from certain death, at basically any level above a 7.
1. Change back Cc/interrupt change 2. M+ scaling to 10%dmg 20% hp 3. Better cemetery’s in m+ and at every boss in raid. At the moment it is crazy how good you need to know the dungeons as a healer or tank. I would never play that role at the beginning if the season
un-squish the keys now! I believe that was the biggest mistake with m+ in this expansion. Second biggest was that gearing was super weird at the start of the season. We already had gear equal to what drops in +7 when we got the first time to really do the dungeons. That fucked up the 2-10 puging scene hard at the start as people with zero knowledge of the dungeons now only want to do content way above their skill level.
in legion relevant keys were 1-10 in bfa 1-15. in sl/df 1-20. And now we have this squish. what they should do it revert it back to what it was in legion or bfa. the game became harder every single expansion for no reason 🤷♂️
I actually like the "Classic" approach of slower and smaller pulls, but in Classic that works because mobs have barely any mechanics, they're just deadly in numbers. In retail, they're doing both: deadly in numbers, AND heavy mechanics. They need to choose one or the other and reduce overall difficulty so that we don't need to have all of these CC and defensive tools in our toolkits as well to remove that bloat.
I push keys as a DPS and my wife play more casual as a Healer. In the past, is was so much easier for her to enjoy the content up to 10 (20) to collect all the portals and gearing the pink pigtail Gnome Priest. But currently, she struggle so hard and for her every 10 feels like a carry, because everyone in the group must perform also in lower keys and every mistakes is punished hard.
This is MM+. Every mistake as to be punished due to the timer. You feel like it punish you hard because you reached the maximum of your skill. For other people, the limit is below, or upper. But with EVERY system that Blizzard may implement, their is a moment where you will struggle and fail. During previous expansion, such as SL or BFA, we were able to reach +23 or +24, but it's not possible here, when pro players struggle on +18. As a result, for many players the +9/+10 levels feel difficult this expansion, just as they had difficulty with the +15 in the past
@@hadriench3402 Not really man. We're never going to see people doing 23s and 24s again because of the change blizz has made to key difficulties. This guy's point is accurate though. I was doing 23s and 24s in DF and I hit 3k io. Whereas in TWW, +10s are much more difficult than DF +20s (roughly supposed to be the same difficulty). Like other people have said, blizz seem to be more interested in basing game design off of AWC, MDI, and race to world first players--a tiny substrata of the player base.
@@SirPhilMcCrackinVonBeggingtonThis 100%. Most of the changes blizz has made is catered for the top 1% of players. Dragonflight had the best reward system idk why they backpeddled on that.
trying to fit the incredibly wide range of player/group skill into one size fits all is pretty tough. the entire experience needs more knobs the players can adjust to fit what kind of challenge they want. i like that blizz has started down the track of separating out low keys from high keys. i like that they tried to make the dungeons really hard. it didnt quite work out the way most people wanted but it does seem like they got closer with high keys than low keys. i do think there is a space within m+ where dungeons could have predefined routes that give different levels of difficulty within the same key for different score up until high keys when the group need to choose the route to get count. mob count could be a high key only skill, while low keys have easy/medium/hard routes. idk thanks for the vid
I agree that a lot of damage should just be unavoidable. So many spells that require interrupts don't even do damage so much as they just kill players if they go off. It puts a ton of stress on players to have a lot of knowledge and know exactly which spells to kick and overemphasizes those skills. Raid healing tends to have a lot more of a "plate spinning" feel where I'm managing a lot of health pools and making decisions, and that is really fun. That comes from regular, unavoidable damage.
Honestly my biggest problem with pushing high keys this season as a healer is the death timer. The fact that a handful of deaths early on in a key means its bricked just doesnt feel fun. I think removing this timer will resolve a major issue for many players.
currently I hate m+ and I dont do it. Everytime I get the courage to finally do them, blizz changes the difficulty or something. I used to do 0's but then i heard a zero was now a +10 and so on.
Jak, love the discussion. I heard someone suggest that perhaps if you use an interrupt and it does not in fact interrupt the mob, it doesn't go on cooldown. I can't count the number of times over the years where 4 people in my group all kicked the same mob. Honestly now with how valuable kicks are, seems even more important.
imo what i dislike very much in mythic + are the interrupts, i play as a warlock and i have two interrupts with very high coldown time. and if someone interrupts at the same time as i do my interrupt is wasted and its potential wipe depending on the dung we are doing. Its also very hard to interrupt the right mob in time when theres 5 of them and you have to press it in less than a second.
They should just revert the change where stops dont stop casting. Because then you also had stun right and can talent in one more i believe. Then your group also has a lot.
If there's one thing that TBC dungeons did well, it was trash. Barely anything to interrupt, but mobs that needed to be kited, mobs that you had to kill the servants to get to the main guy, mobs that were in stealth, mobs that put things on the floor or fired huge beams of fire etc. The only time you might need to interrupt is if a mob casted a charm or something on a ranged/healer. To free them. Another perfect design of Trash was Ulduar. Mobs that did big aoe and had to be dealt with by ranged, and mobs that would nuke ranged players and needed to be controlled by melee, Mobs that would frost nova now and again or a big add that shielded all the little ones so you couldn't aoe until it died first. Even the adds that needed you balance stacks before Thorim, or the adds before Auriaya that you had to kill an orb that flew between them. Frost wyrm nests that popped out of the ground before Hodir, Mobs that needed to die together or they got very powerful. Hell Uld even had mobs that exploded when they died and spider Tanks you could drive. I don't want a basically un-trackable (without mods) amount of interrupts that can barely be done by your entire group together, while you aoe blender everything down without much else care. Less trash, better design, more fun. As a returning player for war within, the way dungeon trash is one of the huge turn offs for me.
Blizzard needs to recognize that fixing Mythic+ isn’t as complicated as it seems; they just have to listen to the community and actually play the content themselves. Here’s what should change: • Remove key depletion after +12. (consider applying to all key levels?) ✅ • Implement a shorter timer for all keys (around 20-25 minutes). This, paired with no depletes, would let players run multiple attempts in an hour-currently not possible-and would significantly boost participation. Let’s face it: at the moment, most players end up waiting at least 20 minutes in queue, only to wipe on the first pull and log out because they won’t have enough time left to complete another key. • Reintroduce two-second silences on all CC effects. This would narrow the gap in the tank meta (and overall meta), allowing for more flexible group compositions instead of relying on perfect CC chains. • Respawns location updated after each boss kill. • In a future expansion, balance classes by splitting spell effects between Mythic+ and raids-similar to the current distinction between PvP and PvE. Just my two cents from a long-time player who primarily runs pick-up groups.
M+ is perfect when there is a mix of maybe 1-2 linear dungeons and the rest being open choice, different routes. In addition, the dungeons themselves need a mix of small, medium and large pulls for variety. Right now, like 6/8 dungeons are W key and constant small pulls usually. Also, no mob should require more than 3 people assigned to kick. (DPS) Right now, you need 4-5 people assigned. I think of bosses like 2nd one on NW and many trash pulls in SV & GB. Those are bad.
I believe the root of a lot of problems is that there's nothing in the game that teaches you how to actually play your class/role other than actually doing the thing. You're then in an environment where you're trying to learn you class, and also learn the dungeon. That then leads to frustration when you end up paired with someone who does have a bit of an idea and is doing some of the basics (kicking, using defensives, avoid things, etc). Then the "banter' begins. The game just seems to be missing a fundamental "this is how you learn to play your class" part. I don't think any kind of change to timer, death count or whatever will fix this. Proving grounds previously kinda tackled this to an extent, and may be a potential way of tackling the "how to play your role" problem. Have something that teaches dps that there's so much other stuff apart from dps that needs doing. Teach tanks and healers about damage patterns, cooldown usage, etc. Encourage/fix the problem of people playing their role, then just leave dungeon learning on the table, which imo should be the main thing people need to focus on each season.
I liked Proving Grounds and think the only problem was that they released it a few expansions too early. When it came out in MoP, there was no M+, not even Mythic dungeons-it was just a restriction on running Heroic dungeons. It was a different time back then. Running Heroic dungeons was the endgame for a lot of players, so putting that kind of restriction on them felt unnecessary. Nowadays, I think Proving Grounds could be implemented in tiers to unlock content gradually. For example: No Medal (completed but with too many deaths or a poor time): Unlocks M0 dungeons. Bronze: Unlocks +2 to +5 keys. Silver: Unlocks +6 to +9 keys. Gold: Unlocks +10 and above. And awards the charge of the catalyst that gives you a tier slot. Like how getting KSM does now. Gold could also serve as the point where your IO score starts being tracked, while below that, it could simply rely on the player's ilvl and Proving Grounds medal. I think this kind of system could work well in the current game environment. Where in the past it was placed too early on in progression that it affected players who just wanna chill and blast some heroics.
I feel like a broken record saying this over and over, but WoW's biggest problem (by a huge margin) is onboarding. Getting new players into the game and teaching them what they need to know, helping returning players reintegrate, and connecting the games now very segmented playerbases to one another. Many sections of the playerbase are essentially playing different games from one another, and while it's great that WoW has that much variety, no effort is being made to "bridge the gap" between these communities, either socially or in terms of game knowledge, which is leading each to become more insular and stagnant. I can't tell you how many times I run into people who are interested in trying to raid or do M+ but have no idea how to start, or learn the skills they need to function, and honestly, it's becoming increasingly frustrating that Blizzard is ignoring the problem. They rely so heavily on third party sources (guides, content creators, guilds) to form the connective tissue of this game while doing nothing to incentivize people from participating on either end.
I have an idea. Rating system should not be related to timing, but your personal utility usage and maybe extra smth. Lets say, you are shaman: there is no way you did zero interups or stuns in a run. You did not used defensive there huge dmg is unavoidable-represent in on ratings. Lastly, if you did something really bad, there should be some message to teach you, not just punish you. If I m not mistaken, ppl leave keys, because somehow they rating on some website appears bigger, not sure if its true, but that would be really bad
I’m a 2800 sweaty pug and I’d say the issues with M+ are: The meta. Blizzard should give us back scrolls to help with there always needs to be a lust and a couple battle resurrections in the group. Those two things alone are the base level of what forms the Meta. Battle Resurrections and lust should be spells that all players receive when they enter a dungeon. That would at least lower the requirements of what classes you have to bring. They should also give us a way to better figure out who to invite to your group and a proper reporting system for bad behavior inside the dungeon.
I just dont get it how no content creator mentions that mythic 8 should give myth 1 track rewards on the vault, it gives myth level gear upgrade crests....but with no gear for you to upgrade, i mean we are give the sermon about fun in mythic plus, how fun is it to fill your vault at the end of the week and get a nice piece of gear next week? to me it feels amazing!!!!!! every week is chirstmas in wow if they make mythic 8 drop myth track on the vault. Same goes for dinar. The rewards arent fun mate, no problem with hard content, never was a problem, the problem is the rewards. Mythic is very hard this season... ok rewards should be amazing! Same goes for Mythic raiding... Players will do hard content and even find it fun if the reward at the end justifies the effort. At the moment the game, in the mythic plus system feels extremely unrewarding for dificulty. 10 nowadays feel like 12 last season, which is normal since we have tyranical and fortified at the same time. i mean i get it, you are abig time stremear with huge D, but surely you leveled some alts and felt that filing the vault with Mythic 10+ keys is not fun, must certainly you would prefer to be mythic8 after. Dungeons feel insane for must of pugs because they are weak mate, they are not well equiped for the dificulty, and theyt have a huge wall that doesnt allows to get gear, in the past that wall was a week worth of your time, this time around the wall is dungeon dificulty, that's even worst, because if you like me you are 6 to 7 weeks openings vaults on 4 character with no upgrade. It isn't Fun!!!! Get out of your high horse giga gear place and see, we lack acess to gear to make hard content more acessible. With all that said thank you for the video. I wish you the best, hope it gets lots of views.
I actually agree with you on the vault. I'm not doing mythic raiding this season so at best I'll have 3 rewards to choose from, and for the last 3 weeks I've taken tokens due to my vault being filled with either gear I already have or gear I do not need. It really sucks seeing 2 cloaks with the wrong stats and a trinket I already have. Idk would be nice to see a change that guarantees you actually get an upgrade from the vault and not just disappointment. Edit: simply due to the randomness of the vault, one of my alts with significantly less play time has geared up faster or pretty much on par with my main and that really makes it feel like all that time spent playing my main was wasted.
I agree. +8/9 should have mythic loot in the vault. In prior seasons you could max out your vault without needing every affix present. Not to mention 10s are both tyr and fort, which was not something that had to be dealt with before for max vault rewards.
I really think what they should do is for especially for d. PS is to have like their stuns and interrupts, specifically like AOE stunts to enable the dp. S to do more damage, so it would only benefit them in the overall DPS I'd do at the end of the dungeon. You know, make it more rewarding to interrupt. S make it more rewarding to sdone. Talk to text speech so this might look really weird
Simple Solution for dungeon mobs -- Less Damage/More Punishment Mobs Abilities: - AoE Slows that last 30-45 seconds - AoE Heal that heals the entire pack of mobs - AoE Buffs that give the packs leech - AoE Debuffs (Non-Removable) that reduce Haste/Attack Speed for 10-15 seconds. There are ways that you can punish players for missing kicks/dispels that doesn't kill a key -- Missing a kick on a AoE Heal basically resets the pack and you have to kill it twice. Its annoying, but the punishment for missing the kick is time loss. It also the fault of the whole group, can't blame the healer, unless it was their turn to kick. --- But it causes less toxicity, because its far less likely to brick a key.
Just a question/idea. Is there not a way for blizzard to just have spells cast by enemies scale a bit more with key level up to like a +12 area? Like at a +4 spells are cast way less often than a +8. But still have them do big damage, so someone could die because the fewer spells are still needing to be kicked or big bad things happen so you keep the learning of kicks. This way you don’t need as high of a level of coordination in what should be a more pug friendly key level. As you get closer to a 10 or a 12, the interrupt/stop requirements get closer and closer to what we have now.
please give us a reason to try and push keys with added cosmetic rewards between the portals and title level keys... idc if its just a weapon illusion just give us something
I think now there is alternatives to getting gear other than m+ and raid people that never enjoyed M+ are not running them. And only the people that really enjoy it are left which is a lot smaller pool. Not everyone enjoys or wants to do M+ and it's good they can get gear another way.
solo queue is absolutely necessary but it needs to NOT be limited to +2-9. It needs to be a primary game mode like solo shuffle is for pvp. It does not need to be related to keystones at all. There is NO reason dungeon scaling needs to be 10% per key level, for solo queue, it should be MMR related. Scaling is percent based on mmr rating, no keystone breakpoints. To address infinite scaling causing eventual 1shot break point for pass/fail (players outright dying, or not) have player health scale with monster damage, to challenge healers in the same way mob health scaling challenges dps. It's so simple and obvious but they just won't listen or refuse to do it for some weird stubborn internal reasons.
I think they also should do dungeons more healer/tank friendly like less spike damages, less ik mechanics. More mechanics that requie healers to have "fun" to heal, not stress every ability to have cds ready. And also dungeons should be harder for DPS, like bosses maybe more hp etc. Dungeons should be more about dps than surviving every pack in the dungeon.
Like 4% of people play tank, 5% of people play healer. Until systems are in place to address that - m+ is over for most of the player base bace because as a tank/healer I can be beyond picky in who I take on runs.
One thing you didn't touch on at all is how many of the dungeons in this season were overtuned Blizzard has been tuning down aspects of these dungeons from week 1 all the way to last week! Blizzard's designers for whatever reason came to the conclusion that their first pass for things like Surgeon Stitchflesh wasn't where they wanted it. Remember the kraken in Siege of Boralus? During the first week the Demolisher Tentacles caused obnoxious knockbacks. This season has had a lot of experimenting going on in, addition to being tuned higher. Tank changes, healer/damage changes, the interrupt changes, and affix changes, in addition to the new pool. So it's really hard to just pin any one aspect being out of line when all the changes are taken together. Honestly I think this season is a result of what people have been suggesting. Wanting less focus on affixes, more on the dungeon. Healers doing more healing. Punishing bozo dps for not using their defensives or interrupts. While at the same it is reaction to how previous seasons were played. Just judging by the line-up for M+ next season I expect next season to be pretty similar. But I think dfficulty creep is a real potential issue.
Agreed, I've been saying it for years! The encounter design and balance teams need to back off and do less. Legion was the most fun specifically because the dungeons weren't over-engineered. The game is better when the main content is easier and more accessible. Mythic plus's auto-scaling guarantees 'numbers difficulty' eventually, so when Blizzard tries to add difficulty in other ways, they simultaneously make the game less fun for everyone, while gatekeeping most of the player base out of content. Then we get distracted and spend years chasing tuning and affix rabbit holes, when the core gameplay is the underlying cause.
Blizzard needs fix affix and depel. As a healer, i feel blizzard intentionally attacking healers, making jobs harder, and DPS refuses to interrupt / depel them self's.
I feel like they need to step away from designing based on the assumption that every player is using all their tools. I miss the days when using your defensive and utility was skill expression and not a requirement. The draw of M+ for me was that the sweats could infinitely scale to a requirement but I can play with the goobers in my guild and still get my portals even if they miss a few kicks.
Depletion of keys must be removed, on every +X, not just for highest ones. You have more players that are less invested in lower keys that are more likely to quit the system if their time will be wasted with depletion. Those high-key-pushers are way more invested into the game and thus less likely to quit. Same with crests and those tiers of gear (adventurer/hero/etc) - I attempted to introduce few new players to wow and those currency mixed with different quality made them disangage fro mthat, isntead of reading on how to get proper crests they want. Somehow other, better games can handle it with one default item that just climbs up and up.
2k+ over many m+ runs, only pugging, , but if I was motivated, I know i could keep progressing based on how I clear 8 and 9s; but what keeps holding me back is the constant meta and character changes. i had to quit playing mm hunter after 11.0.5 because i went from top of the DPS to below the tank. this was soul crushing. i rerolled to SV hunter, which is pretty fun and am near top 100 in my server's mythic group, but do the difficulty of getting invites I am waste a lot of my time playing an alt frost DK, which I think will be better if I wanted to do 12+, as I like the tankiness and it's burst with breath is so awesome. Anyway, there's no point, as things will get nerfed, and i'll have to reroll to get invites as DPS, etc... Also we need a soloque. Let me input my key range, and look for groups with DPS availible, select my dungeons, and then I can play the game why I'm waiting forever in queue i'm not meta.
Trouble is classes have had so many stops added to their abilities so they plan the dungeons around them. Remove all except 1 interrupt for each person. Maybe even have to have hard cc again.
I think when it comes to casters and archers that spam filler abilities that scale WAY too hard, they already solved it with the afflicted (ghost chase you) affix. Just cap the scaling of ranged filler abilities at a 5 key or scale it to do % dmg that caps at 25%, no reason a web bolt should be hitting someone for 80% of their damn hp. Edit: just noticed you got ellesmere as ret, is holy really that cooked?
Agree with a lot, I think the maze mini game is pretty nice in Mists of Thirna Scithe tho, annoying maybe. But as a healer I see it as my role to do it and it makes me alert (since the weakaura doesnt work all the time I do it manually). I'd like to see more of these things. Things that make you pay attention the environment , the DUNGEON. love that stuff
As a healer main you probably wont like this, but just looking at numbers of people playing… Tank and healer should be the “easiest” roles. The key should time or deplete on dps, since everyone and their dog want to dps, force ‘em to maximize their output. If they start by making tanking and healing “easier”, at least people playing hybrid classes that can easily swap spec wouldn’t feel so bad playing a tank or heals if needed because it would just feel chill (bring back gf pocket healer). Even if this makes those roles more boring. Start there. Then blizz can rethink ways to make those roles fun and engaging again, but start at an approachable difficulty level. I agree, though, that unavoidable damage challenging healer output is probably better, because it would appeal to ungabunga dps brain. But it needs to be in such a way that you aren’t feeling like you are going to have a heart attack every pull. Dps doesn’t really feel that way. Taking the focus off surviving would be a good start. Perhaps scale mob health harder but not their damage (as much).
I think they balance way to much around "The race to world first" they make things incredibly hard for that as well as the MDI and everyone else just has to tag along till stuff is nerfed since not all of us can play wow as a job like some of those guilds are able to. I'm 3200 this season and it just feels like they killed this season so quickly with challengers peril along with some other issues.
You are on to a lot of improvements that would see this game return to being an MMO. get back to making a game that you can chat while playing with your friends. Focus on building a character that can achieve a power fantasy, get rid of level scaling mobs they completely ruin the feel of any progression in a loot based MMO, why have loot if the same dungeon will just scale with me? and get away from the skill capped focus game play that turns this game into DDR with your fingers. the moments that I remember most from WOW were chatting after school with friends while we raided because the down time and the speed of the game allowed for us to have time to focus on the community part of the game. I remember get ashkandi and my Warrior being so geared that we would tank with a two hander just for fun. the content felt like I had built a character in a world that they were truly epic in and only the few end game bosses scaled to the epicness of gear. Even in BIS gear you will still be sweating your fingers off playing beethoven moonlight sonata. This is not fun. Now it feels more like a hamster on a wheel waiting for the numbers to go up but no feeling of change in the world no feeling of progression.
How about dropping actual Myth gear in +10 and above?? Also you can easily complete a key by pulling 1-2 packs of trash at a time. Why do tanks feel like they need to pull 4+ packs?!?!
You are talking about the highest end Mythic Plus. If you want to have fun and banter with your group then run Lower Keys. If you're going to be running the highest level content in Mythic plus then you and your group are going to need to cc and interrupt
The problem isn't the game, it is player's expectations. Every noob out there knows that mythic raiding is hard and not everyone can get CE, but for some strange reason, every noobs think they can do a +12 and they cry and blame Blizzard and other players that it is too hard while standing in shit to click on their skill icon.
Dawn breaker being your favorite dungeon is a hot take. Personal opinion is that every season needs a dungeon like dawn. Dawns biggest issue aside from bugs is its the worst speed dungeon wow has ever made. They should look at freehold as the example for overall design make make the mob changes talked about here, and you would have a dungeon everyone loves to do even if they don't need score or rewards. Its fun on its own. Most seasons have at a minimum, one dungeon like this. This season it ended up being dawn and it is by far the worst quick dungeon experience of all time.
I wonder if this is a video idea? Best spam dungeon of each season. What makes them fun. Why it is important to have at least one and why you can't have every dungeon like this.
honestly there design this season makes no sense they wanted to give us more health so health bars arn't ping ponging but they already are at like a +7. they wanted CC to be weaker but its needed more than ever. Not even gonna speak on tanks cause everyone know the infamous post.
I wish there was a better progression path. Delves are sending new players from tier 8 delves into M+8. That gap is absolutely horrendous. New players must struggle for weeks in low keys with a metric ton of mechanics in a highly toxic environment. You can’t blame them for nope’ing out of that experience.
They can reduce the amount of mechanics in m+ by like 50% and there would still be plenty going on. Its probably the same in raids but I dont know, I quit raiding in SL cuz of how annoying the fights have become.
I have not participated in M+ content because I don't enjoy the content. The only times in the past that I have has been only to either farm a trinket or gain some other form of progression to support raid. If they were to remove the timer for the first 10 levels and have that content easier, less demanding, and there for he progression then I'd participate much more often. Then for those who want the challenge, and desire the high-level gameplay, then can make 11+ timer based for the best rewards, but also the hardest challenge.
Almost every 12+ key I've bricked has been from CC. Damage, healing and mechanics are generally fine, but one cast goes off in 30 mins and that's the key. Really lame and enforces comp metas far below where they would normally be needed. Like, why would anyone bring a shadow priest this season? 45s kick and 45s stop that hardly does anything just doesn't cut it for these CC heavy dungeons.
would be nice to introduce some sort of m+ talent system where you can pick B-ress for healers or give us an item we can get thru content that does it, same with BL... beacuse i have having to compose my groups around needing BL and CR... that kills a lot of class variations... like warriors, rogues have neither
@@AutomaticJak QE also says that the Legendary Skippers is the best healing one overall if everyone uses it. Not sure why, I guess because it can proc any gem effect?
Removing the timer would be the stupidest move. A big problem with S1 is that due to delves rewarding such high UPGRADABLE gear, people were easily out gearing like 2-6 keys, so many tried to just get into 7s or something with no knowledge of the dungeons and its a miserable experience. but anything lower is a waste of time. also theres some division cuz people who played these older expansions know the dungeons, but people who didnt do not, so there is this air of "expectation" to just know what to do, when a lot dont. TONS of people dont know wtf to do in the tirna scythe maze. i dont know how big of a population would actually do this, but if the timer was gone and we got a death counter, guarantee there would be people complaining not to pull big, which leads to slow and boring dungeons. if someone pulled big and there was a death due to missed interrupts, people would get mad at others for throwing or trolling, and probably leave cuz youve already lost a life that early on. and then yeah ofc if the tank dies its usually a wipe so there goes all your lives. the timer is kind of an affix for your dps to deal with, basically the only responsibility they have. idk how gear from delves will work next patch but i hope they make it not upgradable so youre still forced to go do low keys to see and learn the dungeon
Nerfing delve gear wont fix the problem of people not knowing what to do in mythic plus. People are still going to go into them and have no clue what to do. Most people who ran delves were perfectly content with staying in them until they learned that there was no way to upgrade there gear and that they had to do mythic plus in order to do it. The biggest problem with mythic plus is a combination nerf to tank survivability and healer healing output while performing a stat squish and keeping damage in mythic plus dungeons relatively equivalent to dragonflight.
@@pyramus7958 i mean yeah it wont FIX the problem but it would definitely help. if people get hard stuck a low il then they would have to do m+, hopefully starting at low numbers which wont always happen we are all aware of this. and the tank nerf mattered at launch but doesnt exist at all anymore, so its really not a talking point anymore. theres literally clips of m+ runs where the prot paladin is doing 2m HPS and doing like triple the healer. once tanks get some of their favoured secondary stat theyre good to go
@@ramones1314 There is a reason why prot paladins are meta right now. They have insane survivability and healing. Not every tank is fairing as well. Vengeance DH, blood dks and brewmasters are insanely squishy. Blizzard did the patented over nerf everything. I think the season 2 change with delves now dropping gilded crests from t11 will keep all of the people who dont want to be in mythic plus out of mythic plus.
@@pyramus7958 yeah and thats why its like the only tank doing 19s but thats not anywhere near just the normal average player. every tank is super viable to do 12 13 14 etc. tanks are fine they literally just needed their haste or whatnot
I honestly think an M+ solo queue just won't work but have a question for those that want it. Lets say I play a tank and can do 10's why would I queue into a group? The solo queue group may suck but likely best case is passable for doing a 10 when I can post my key and very likely get 3 over qualified dps or join a key with a well thought out group.
Well what if Quinn as a tank once you’ve already completed that difficulty of key gave you bonus rewards ( ex. Extra crest multiplier, or even double progress on your vault) would you then consider using the que system. Every version of equable dungeons has a reward present and displayed ( for tanks and healers some times even bonus bags) on the que board. Incentives would be the reason
I think a lot of people look for reasons as to why A que system wouldn’t work instead of thinking of ways they could make the que system attractive to more players
Keys would be extremly boring if it was just tank and spank the whole way like everyone wants. Sucks but dps players need to use their brains and cc/interrupt/press defensives.
Blizzard should homogenise the dispell system, and reduce the number of interruptions required, given the inequality between classes. For the rest, this season was great. Great dungeons selections and a good response to tune hard dungeons compared to previous expansion and incoming season.
I sadly stop playing so early into the expansion cause of how late mythic + started it felt like it toke forever for the season to start. I hope they never do thwt again lol.
8:41 no thank you this will make it harder for low-level M+, more will Quit this game you call for tanks nerf and we end up with fewer tanks playing this game
For me, if they just revert this stupid change where AoE stops don't stop mobs from casting straight after, then I am happy again. And mythic track back to 4 or give myth track from high keys. 14+ or smth
Key lvl squish wasnt that good Many of my friends strugle to kill +12 key huge jump from +11 so they rather do weekly and waiting for new season When im playing solo 14-15 keys they are more easy to time than 12 huge skill gap imo its better to have more keys lvl so ppl can learn slowly okay this will oneshot me on this lvl so i need to pop deff But rn the jump in diff is that big... almost every mistake will kill you on +12 and ppl are not used to it from lower key
Removal of 2-10 keys stopped people who were scared of group from even playing. Those people quit the game when it came in, and I no longer play my alts. Now they prevent me having access to myth track gear AND added a 2nd affix to the +10 level, making the game simply not fun. My m+ group has now quit. I wish I never bothered with this xpac, and I'm done now. DFS3 was fun, TWW is not fun. Very simple.
you have zero use of myth track gear if you aren't playing +12 and above, and if you do then you have it in your vault doing 10s. you can play +10s like what whos preventing you? xd its december, so easy to pug all dungeons on 10
Too much going on at the same time. I'm tired of people saying that players don't know whats going on and need to learn. This is the end of the season and its just as bad as at the start. They know what to interrupt and stop, but coordination is just impossible in pugs. Important stuff gets controlled but by 2 or 3 people at the same time and then everyone is out of cds. The fact that we still have affixes to solve while 4 other mechanics are going on is ridiculous. The fact that affixes require crowd control and dispels is a joke. The worst part about all of this, is that this is supposed to be the alt expansion, but m+ feels like is made for mains only. Who the fuck is playing flawless on their alts? And thats what is required even in lower keys.
I think M+ has been broken for so long that we are just a bit fed up and not doing it anymore. I don't think blizzard will make it good, they are too stubborn in their ways.
If they could stop creeping up the game's difficulty every expansion, that'd be nice. Getting a basic weekly +10 done and timed has never felt so sweaty and it seems like it has passed the point of enjoyment for a lot of players this season.
1.- Remove interrupts from healer. You shouldn't have it. I am a main healer and it's just adds more unbalance to the equation. 2.- Remove dungeons that the majority of the community doesn't like, like Theater of Pain. No one likes it since it was announced. It's shows you don't listen to the community and only yourself (and your belly button). 3.- Remove the interrupt rework. If you successfully interrupt something, you should have a period of grace and safety (you earned it). 4.- Remove Valorstones, they are useless and like the obsolete Siren Isle ring systems shows, it's only uses slots in your bags (the amount of gems and resources tied to it's stupid). 5.- Increases the crest and gold reward after each key. Make the rewards feels like rewards. 6.- Create systems where if a party member doesn't does a mechanic, the healer isn't the responsible of fixing this (disarm, undispelleable silence, screen turns black for a few seconds for example). Your mistake are your owns. 7.- Get rid of the idea this is a Dark Souls for 5 player mode. It's an MMO-RPG. You should be punished if you do a mistake, but not a straight death. The threshold is tied to the key level. So not a single mechanic should one shot you on low levels. Different thing is you stand purposely on fire, then you can die by accumulated damage over time. Dark Souls works because it's a single player mode (or with a few but loyal friends) where you control all the variables. M+ it's literally the opposite of this.
you realise that if they removed interrupts from healers the group would still not interrupt, you are at their mercy instead of being able to do it yourself and you still get the blame if someone dies?
Why no one care about getting mythic lvl loot in dungeon? I have only two season in this game but if I remember it was the case in S2 DF. It leaves RiO the only reason to push.
I don't get what u want them to do. It's infinite scaling content. For example they nerf something ur stuck on in a plus 10 great now you can push that key to a plus 20 where it will one shot you again and you will complian, they will nerf and you will push said key to a point where it will one shot you again. Now im not specifically saying this what you do personally, I'm just using you as an example here. You always get to a point where you just cannot time the key. We need to be careful of what we ask for or we could end up with wotlk hcs. I've been happy playing m plus since they released it. What im unhappy with that it changes every season and I have to adapt to these changes like I did in this season and now we are talking about removing the timer and everything. How long before it just isn't my plus anymore?
I think making trash more like DB and parts of Stonevault is much better than GB trash for example. Yes content scaling is infinite but there’s a muchhhh smoother difficulty curve w the way they design and tune interrupts in keys between those two examples
19 дней назад+2
I was thinking about same thing as you just said, until this season. For example; scaling key levels between 1-10 limits the levels you can play as a semi/hard core player for like 10-11 and there is a threshold for +12 which if you are not meta you dont get invite. But if i can do key levels like up until 30, i have a chance to go for 20-30 each level each dungeon is a new chance for me to get rio. So i can encourage to play 20,21,23,24,25 which i did previous expansion. But now i stuck 11s...
@@AutomaticJak As a healer I agree, that a lot more smaller but unavoidable damage (either pulsing or casts/shots that don't oneshot) that we need to heal through, would make a lot more engaging and fun experience. The issue is, that with infinite scaling that unavoidable dmg becomes unhealable at some point. To me the only solution to that would be to cap or lower the dmg scaling of keys so at one point your biggest challenge become to do enough dmg to finish the run in time. That would result in bigger pulls with again more difficulty, but I feel it's better to let players choose their pulls and try to overcome them rather than having to CC and kick everything otherwise you're just one-shot.
Too often i hear people talk about what's fun in wow and that they dont like interrupting or dispells or using defensive cd and all i can think is most wow players want the best gear in the game just by doing a rotation like ???
Or you know, no priest interrupts, dumbass minute long solar beam interrupts or having to sit in bear form as a caster and doing nothing for 5-8 seconds when other classes are literally running around with 12 second interrupts.
More frequent and separate balancing between M+ and raid. it is a joke how long it takes overperforming specs to be nerfed and underperforming specs to be buffed. I always hated FOTM, but I tried Prot Paladin and it really is sad how much easier and better it is than every other tank. That should have been identified and correctly quickly. Possibly even hotfixed.
sadly gb dungeon marking just repeats its self each time they bring a very old dung . which means they dont change the old dungeon good enough. so many cc and interrupts are just so toxic in keys . i also hate how in ara kara despite it being ezier key there are some packs with high density intrupt packs which will do st big damage bolta or even packs at ends which adds are are ao annoying to slow players . i don't think they need to do that
An unpopular opinion here. I dont like massive pulls. I can handle them good but the mentality of dps just pumping and not taking any other responsability is one of the things that has made the dps community quite toxic. Some extent of big pull i like, for example the first corridor of SV without the pulls from the boss room: that massive pull is 100% doable but i should require more coordination that your average pull. Making pulld bigger just to catter to dps egos will only maje them less patient and more entitled that they already are.
All they gotta do is just make tanks like dragonflight and remove challengers peril. I get blizzard dont know how to read and trying other stuff that will never work.
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One thing that MUST happen imo is reverting the cc doesnt actually interrupt mobs change. Its just so frustrating wasting an interrupt because someone else tried to help with a stun or knock up only for the mob to start recasting instantly and wipe the grp. I dont care that the cutting edge pushers will be able to clear 2-3 levels higher because its easier to set up near infinite cc chains. What I and 99.999% of people care about is not having to micro manage every little cc in our grp just so we dont waste a lot of it. Even when we are in voice comms and I am pretty sure thats not the case in most keys that are run its just not fun.
this
Totally agree. These changes hit 99,9 % of player way harder than the top 0,1%. Of course it is not ideal that the best players in the world set up minute long cc chains if it is like DF. But they really shouldn’t make the game so much worse to pug.
F.e. 2nd pull Grim. Oh 2 players tried kicking tremors when the evoker cast upheaval and now there is no kick when he instant recasts?
Too bad the key is over
the thing with the interrupt changes , its the main reason healers heal a lot this season , i would say that should stay , but give all healers a curse dispell , and poison dispell , i think the cc changes are good for their " heal goals" , other than that , tank busters should be on a high cds rather than every 10 seconds , so you can handle two busters at least before runing out of cds and the pack is still alive.
@@sharkstaint1373 it’s just hell for pugs who don’t wanna be in comms. They shouldn’t cater the game to the top players who can manage that. They should always think about the 99% of player not the 1%
They can just make gameplay a lot better by putting in more rotting unavoidable damage and not require every 3rd global to be a damn dispel
@@gooseg3822 if they remove that option again , the healer will not care about healing anymore like it used to , and its gonna be the same bs again , one stun and that's it , it will be 100% better for puging i agree , but i would say nerf the damage , then its a good middle ground , reverting the changes , will result in the same stuff they made the change for.
Dawnbreaker is also great because the Graveyard isn’t god awful and a long way away!
True!
At worst it's 15 seconds or so because you have to get into the chapel. 15 seconds in regular dungeons that don't have mounting up (GB) is like 120 yards and GB (and SOB) could really have used some major skips.
The complex trash mobs are a huge problem.. makes M+ unpleasant. Hate putting in a GB key, nobody interrupts or uses CC. Everyone falls over. It’s then blamed on the tank or healer, and then they quit and my key is depleted. Feels bad.
Exactly
@@AutomaticJak sound like the problem is bad players not bad dungeons
@@leemarks1153 It's both.
Or everyone spams cc on pulls and makes all the mob stun resist before they are below 90% hp
In my experience, it's not actually the case that "nobody interrupts" but rather that multiple players attempt to interrupt the same cast or that someone stuns/knockups/a mob just as someone else is about to try to interrupt it - which essentially "eats" the interrupt.
The issue with difficulty in mythic+ is that the main original selling point of the system was that the difficulty was scalable and you could play it at the level that you want. As a medium skill level healer I’ll be honest, doing a Level 3 key is just as stressful as doing a level 7 or 9, because everything can one shot your group if you miss a mechanic or an interrupt. If blizzard wants to fix the system I think they need to stop making mythic+ harder and harder every expansion just because the top players are getting better and better.
Or just do what they did in the past, make the top guys do very high key levels because it frankly does not matter if the number is 12 or 25 for them.
They hurt the lower levels so much with the squish and pugging low levels is extremely painful when little timmy that belongs in a +5 pre-squish is doing a +5 now, had way too much of that to the point where it's burnt me out.
idk what you on about tbh. I have ilvl 600 now returning player and doing 8s and it feels fkin chill. Sometimes random kill. But yeah, feels fine to me.
As healer the keys from 1-8 or 9 are harder than 10 and 11+ imo, because people don't know that they are doing most of the time and take therefore a lot more damage than players in higher keys. If you play on higher level your group usually knows (in general) what to do, how to cc etc. and you will have to heal less and get more time to cc yourself and add to the dmg.
This, there's no longer an "entry level" for M+, you have to start hard all in or get out
@@hiddevanzalm272starting late in season and you cant realize youre being carried, lol
Feels bad that the heroic raid is WAY easier than M+, but gives the same tier of gear. The current heroic raid is essentially "stand in the right spot and avoid the bad flashy mechanics," while M+ is "same as the raid, but with much higher healing and dps checks, also make sure an abilitiy is interrupted every 3 seconds for the entire dungeon." Classes aren't balanced enough to warrant the CC requirements.
I main heals... Why does my shaman have twice as many keys bound as my priest? If there is only one spot for a healer, then shouldn't the functionality across classes be similar to fulfill that role? I'm not saying give every class the same abilities with different names and animations, but balance their utilities better.
Imo theres a arms race against the top players (in coordinated grps!) which negatively effects the midcore and casual (pug) players way too much.
Very true
As long as Blizzard keeps catering to the less than 1% of the playerbase I don't see a great future for M+
@@CsStoker Except what people refer to as 'catering to 1%' is bad for everyone involved, including the 1%. It's just bad decisions across the board, not catering to anyone.
Pretending like the healer and tank problems are just going to solve themselves is a choice. They need to just rip the bandaid off and give tanks/healers something to make them FUN not just more difficult than dpsing.
This is my take on Mythic+ as multi 0.1% title holder IN A PUG - no comms.
I think that the biggest issue with mythic+ is that it released as something you do and can push through while waiting for that one or two days of a raid. Or, if you are a casual, who does not want to, or cannot, spend hours playing. Go in, go out, 30 minutes, done. Because there really had not been anything challenging to do before mythic+ released in terms of PvE.
BUT! The higher you go, the less you can play. To a point, where it takes even several hours to be either accepted to a key, or to have people of equivalent skill join your key. And it gets even worse if you are not a meta slave. And thus the whole purpose of mythic+ has been defeated.
Mythic+ should IMHO be COMPLETELY RANDOM solo mode. Or it should have a solo mode with separate rankings. You would queue up for it the same way you do for heroic dungeons, you would get random 3 DPS, 1 Heal, 1 Tank of any class from the people that are in the queue based on their Raider.IO. Let's say it would be brackets of 100 score that would play together.
This way you could come online for those 30 minutes after you come home from your 9-5 job, play a competitive fun endgame mode without having to worry about meta slaving or finding people to play with. Go in, go out, have fun, over. And same as heroic dungeons, there would rewards, SUPERB ones, for queing as a Heal or a Tank, increasing in value based on score. ( of course you would need that rio to be done on that particular role )
Get rid of forced depletions. Mythic raiders can bang their head weeks on end against the same boss over and over until they down it, players should be able to bang their head against a keystone level until they time. Stop punishing people for trying and not succeeding. The lack of success is punishment enough. There is no need to add insult to injury. Especially when you consider at higher mythic keys so many trash mob mechanics are one shots, the number of encounters a mythic+ player must perfect to time those keys when you account for all those trash encounters plus the bosses across those myriad of dungeons far eclipses those of the 8-10 boss fights a mythic raider must learn and yet the mythic raiders can pound their faces to oblivion if they want week after week without having to worry about losing progress if they fail. It really makes no sense and its what we call STUPID design.
Imagine if m raider would be teleported to heroic if they failed the boss😂😂😂 I feel you and totaly agree👍
Agreed. I can live with uneven scaling (like from +11 to +12) and the 15 second death timer. But, for the love of god, remove depletions. Or at least, remove depletions once you get to +10. Beyond this key level you're not doing the keys for gear - it's simply just for personal progress and fun.
I got to 3k a while ago and unsubbed because it stopped being fun in any way. I'm simply never coming back if they don't remove depletions. I don't get much time to play and spending 90% of my time trying to get into the only key I want, only to deplete because one person missed a kick or a mechanic is not fun.
@Muziejininkas 😅😅
Apples and oranges
Maybe if the community brings this exact point up enough times, they’ll fix the situation…by making raiders redo the previous boss after a wipe 😄
I dont even think the timer is the biggest issue or even the key depletion. There were way less people saying we need to stop keys depleting before TWW - before they did the m+ key level squish + added 15sec death penalty + nerfed the tanks and healers + introduced harder interrupts/no cc interrupting.
I think what we can conclude from all of this is that the death timer was a mistake (that could have been countered with better GY/spawn-point design...but isnt), cc-change was terrible and really bad for m+ and that combined with harder keys and weaker tanks led into a lot of people feeling season1 keys being way too hard and not fun. It did not also help that the crest change aka. making completing the dungeon reward *something* took until 2/3rds of the season to be fixed.
I'm pretty hopeful that if they remove the death timer and allow cc's to work more as interrupts again the majority of immediate issues will resolve pretty well. Keys depleting was not a problem when one pull at the start of the key did not brick the whole key 90% of the time and when there is an actual reason to finish the key overall.
Since Blizzard has teached m+ community to enjoy big pulls and speedrunning for years, I feel the change from timer to deaths would just slow down keys and bring a whole new level of toxicity. I sometimes feel the 30 minute keys are a bit long and I definitely do not miss the 45-60min keys. Frankly making ANOTHER game mode in the spirit of challenge modes could be a thing for those players that do not enjoy the timer based key running . That could be pretty easy to implement and have it as a separate event like plunderstorm or one season test run.
I find it odd that they are asking feedback for a dramatic change before considering the several small things they altered before this particular season.
Finally someone with a brain who understands the root of the problems, instead of echo-chambering nonsense.
No, it's the timer. I refuse to do M+ as long as it's timed.
Unpopular opinion: I had the most fun in M+ in Season 3-4 of Shadowlands. It felt really good to progress from 15s to 16s, it was a milestone... then from 19 to 20, and then each key above 20 that I was able to time. We were doing big dam, big heals, working and coordinating as a group... and chit chatting in between... DF S4 and TWW S1, with the squish of levels... it does not feel as good!
shadowlands had banger season affixes in s3 and 4. and s4 dungeon pool was great. liked junkyard, train, karazhan (after the nerfs 😂)
How did the squish change any of that? And DF S4 was really trivial, maybe a smidge lower in success rates than DF S3.
@@Nightstalker314 My personal opinion - I think the squish left people feeling badly... I have been consistently getting my portals since Shadowlands (lvl 20, now 10), but I have friends and guildies who were only doing 12s and 13s before the squish and now they are barely succeeding in 7s and 8s.. it's demoralizing. There isn't a gradual increase in difficulty anymore, there are giant leaps that discourage many players from progressing. It felt bad to me early on in the season, when I was still learning the dungeons and rotations, to be worried about not completing a 4 because the jump from 3 to 4 was too much... it's far too punishing now. With the former, I was able to progress and learn as I climbed in difficulty. There is no more of that... Casual players = less than 8, Elite players = 8 and over. Where do the middle land? No where. - That's just my opinion.. no one has to agree with me.
@@JenniferHillburn 7s and 8s are previous 17 and 18.
100% agree with your opinion. It feels the philosophy changed from being powerful and optimising that power, to entering every dungeon always being one missed kick away from certain death, at basically any level above a 7.
1. Change back Cc/interrupt change
2. M+ scaling to 10%dmg 20% hp
3. Better cemetery’s in m+ and at every boss in raid.
At the moment it is crazy how good you need to know the dungeons as a healer or tank. I would never play that role at the beginning if the season
un-squish the keys now! I believe that was the biggest mistake with m+ in this expansion. Second biggest was that gearing was super weird at the start of the season. We already had gear equal to what drops in +7 when we got the first time to really do the dungeons. That fucked up the 2-10 puging scene hard at the start as people with zero knowledge of the dungeons now only want to do content way above their skill level.
in legion relevant keys were 1-10 in bfa 1-15. in sl/df 1-20. And now we have this squish.
what they should do it revert it back to what it was in legion or bfa. the game became harder every single expansion for no reason 🤷♂️
@@ic3t3ap3ach BFA was the worst M+ experience to date. Guess people forgot about all of that.
I actually like the "Classic" approach of slower and smaller pulls, but in Classic that works because mobs have barely any mechanics, they're just deadly in numbers. In retail, they're doing both: deadly in numbers, AND heavy mechanics. They need to choose one or the other and reduce overall difficulty so that we don't need to have all of these CC and defensive tools in our toolkits as well to remove that bloat.
I push keys as a DPS and my wife play more casual as a Healer. In the past, is was so much easier for her to enjoy the content up to 10 (20) to collect all the portals and gearing the pink pigtail Gnome Priest. But currently, she struggle so hard and for her every 10 feels like a carry, because everyone in the group must perform also in lower keys and every mistakes is punished hard.
yup, loved to be able to "carry" a group as a prot paladin. But cant do that anymore to the same extent.
This is MM+. Every mistake as to be punished due to the timer. You feel like it punish you hard because you reached the maximum of your skill. For other people, the limit is below, or upper. But with EVERY system that Blizzard may implement, their is a moment where you will struggle and fail. During previous expansion, such as SL or BFA, we were able to reach +23 or +24, but it's not possible here, when pro players struggle on +18. As a result, for many players the +9/+10 levels feel difficult this expansion, just as they had difficulty with the +15 in the past
@@hadriench3402 Not really man. We're never going to see people doing 23s and 24s again because of the change blizz has made to key difficulties. This guy's point is accurate though. I was doing 23s and 24s in DF and I hit 3k io. Whereas in TWW, +10s are much more difficult than DF +20s (roughly supposed to be the same difficulty). Like other people have said, blizz seem to be more interested in basing game design off of AWC, MDI, and race to world first players--a tiny substrata of the player base.
@@SirPhilMcCrackinVonBeggingtonThis 100%. Most of the changes blizz has made is catered for the top 1% of players. Dragonflight had the best reward system idk why they backpeddled on that.
trying to fit the incredibly wide range of player/group skill into one size fits all is pretty tough. the entire experience needs more knobs the players can adjust to fit what kind of challenge they want. i like that blizz has started down the track of separating out low keys from high keys. i like that they tried to make the dungeons really hard. it didnt quite work out the way most people wanted but it does seem like they got closer with high keys than low keys. i do think there is a space within m+ where dungeons could have predefined routes that give different levels of difficulty within the same key for different score up until high keys when the group need to choose the route to get count. mob count could be a high key only skill, while low keys have easy/medium/hard routes. idk
thanks for the vid
Tune about 1.5 levels below current tuning - that would make it roughly equal with DF tuning which was fun. Current tuning is too stressful.
I agree that a lot of damage should just be unavoidable. So many spells that require interrupts don't even do damage so much as they just kill players if they go off. It puts a ton of stress on players to have a lot of knowledge and know exactly which spells to kick and overemphasizes those skills. Raid healing tends to have a lot more of a "plate spinning" feel where I'm managing a lot of health pools and making decisions, and that is really fun. That comes from regular, unavoidable damage.
Honestly my biggest problem with pushing high keys this season as a healer is the death timer. The fact that a handful of deaths early on in a key means its bricked just doesnt feel fun. I think removing this timer will resolve a major issue for many players.
currently I hate m+ and I dont do it. Everytime I get the courage to finally do them, blizz changes the difficulty or something. I used to do 0's but then i heard a zero was now a +10 and so on.
Jak, love the discussion. I heard someone suggest that perhaps if you use an interrupt and it does not in fact interrupt the mob, it doesn't go on cooldown. I can't count the number of times over the years where 4 people in my group all kicked the same mob. Honestly now with how valuable kicks are, seems even more important.
Would be a great change, in pve at least :) can speak on pvp, but I suppose they could make it like it is now for pvp only
So everyone macros their kicks into their rotation..
@Impthe. Put them on GCD then
@@TheShawnMower if you though dps weren't interupting enough now XD
@@TheShawnMower Doesn't change anything.
imo what i dislike very much in mythic + are the interrupts, i play as a warlock and i have two interrupts with very high coldown time. and if someone interrupts at the same time as i do my interrupt is wasted and its potential wipe depending on the dung we are doing. Its also very hard to interrupt the right mob in time when theres 5 of them and you have to press it in less than a second.
They should just revert the change where stops dont stop casting. Because then you also had stun right and can talent in one more i believe. Then your group also has a lot.
So is your point to have less CC and interrupts required?
If there's one thing that TBC dungeons did well, it was trash.
Barely anything to interrupt, but mobs that needed to be kited, mobs that you had to kill the servants to get to the main guy, mobs that were in stealth, mobs that put things on the floor or fired huge beams of fire etc. The only time you might need to interrupt is if a mob casted a charm or something on a ranged/healer. To free them.
Another perfect design of Trash was Ulduar. Mobs that did big aoe and had to be dealt with by ranged, and mobs that would nuke ranged players and needed to be controlled by melee, Mobs that would frost nova now and again or a big add that shielded all the little ones so you couldn't aoe until it died first. Even the adds that needed you balance stacks before Thorim, or the adds before Auriaya that you had to kill an orb that flew between them. Frost wyrm nests that popped out of the ground before Hodir, Mobs that needed to die together or they got very powerful. Hell Uld even had mobs that exploded when they died and spider Tanks you could drive.
I don't want a basically un-trackable (without mods) amount of interrupts that can barely be done by your entire group together, while you aoe blender everything down without much else care.
Less trash, better design, more fun. As a returning player for war within, the way dungeon trash is one of the huge turn offs for me.
Blizzard needs to recognize that fixing Mythic+ isn’t as complicated as it seems; they just have to listen to the community and actually play the content themselves. Here’s what should change:
• Remove key depletion after +12. (consider applying to all key levels?) ✅
• Implement a shorter timer for all keys (around 20-25 minutes). This, paired with no depletes, would let players run multiple attempts in an hour-currently not possible-and would significantly boost participation. Let’s face it: at the moment, most players end up waiting at least 20 minutes in queue, only to wipe on the first pull and log out because they won’t have enough time left to complete another key.
• Reintroduce two-second silences on all CC effects. This would narrow the gap in the tank meta (and overall meta), allowing for more flexible group compositions instead of relying on perfect CC chains.
• Respawns location updated after each boss kill.
• In a future expansion, balance classes by splitting spell effects between Mythic+ and raids-similar to the current distinction between PvP and PvE.
Just my two cents from a long-time player who primarily runs pick-up groups.
M+ is perfect when there is a mix of maybe 1-2 linear dungeons and the rest being open choice, different routes. In addition, the dungeons themselves need a mix of small, medium and large pulls for variety. Right now, like 6/8 dungeons are W key and constant small pulls usually. Also, no mob should require more than 3 people assigned to kick. (DPS) Right now, you need 4-5 people assigned. I think of bosses like 2nd one on NW and many trash pulls in SV & GB. Those are bad.
I believe the root of a lot of problems is that there's nothing in the game that teaches you how to actually play your class/role other than actually doing the thing. You're then in an environment where you're trying to learn you class, and also learn the dungeon. That then leads to frustration when you end up paired with someone who does have a bit of an idea and is doing some of the basics (kicking, using defensives, avoid things, etc). Then the "banter' begins.
The game just seems to be missing a fundamental "this is how you learn to play your class" part.
I don't think any kind of change to timer, death count or whatever will fix this.
Proving grounds previously kinda tackled this to an extent, and may be a potential way of tackling the "how to play your role" problem. Have something that teaches dps that there's so much other stuff apart from dps that needs doing. Teach tanks and healers about damage patterns, cooldown usage, etc.
Encourage/fix the problem of people playing their role, then just leave dungeon learning on the table, which imo should be the main thing people need to focus on each season.
I liked Proving Grounds and think the only problem was that they released it a few expansions too early. When it came out in MoP, there was no M+, not even Mythic dungeons-it was just a restriction on running Heroic dungeons.
It was a different time back then. Running Heroic dungeons was the endgame for a lot of players, so putting that kind of restriction on them felt unnecessary.
Nowadays, I think Proving Grounds could be implemented in tiers to unlock content gradually. For example:
No Medal (completed but with too many deaths or a poor time): Unlocks M0 dungeons.
Bronze: Unlocks +2 to +5 keys.
Silver: Unlocks +6 to +9 keys.
Gold: Unlocks +10 and above. And awards the charge of the catalyst that gives you a tier slot. Like how getting KSM does now.
Gold could also serve as the point where your IO score starts being tracked, while below that, it could simply rely on the player's ilvl and Proving Grounds medal.
I think this kind of system could work well in the current game environment. Where in the past it was placed too early on in progression that it affected players who just wanna chill and blast some heroics.
I feel like a broken record saying this over and over, but WoW's biggest problem (by a huge margin) is onboarding. Getting new players into the game and teaching them what they need to know, helping returning players reintegrate, and connecting the games now very segmented playerbases to one another.
Many sections of the playerbase are essentially playing different games from one another, and while it's great that WoW has that much variety, no effort is being made to "bridge the gap" between these communities, either socially or in terms of game knowledge, which is leading each to become more insular and stagnant.
I can't tell you how many times I run into people who are interested in trying to raid or do M+ but have no idea how to start, or learn the skills they need to function, and honestly, it's becoming increasingly frustrating that Blizzard is ignoring the problem. They rely so heavily on third party sources (guides, content creators, guilds) to form the connective tissue of this game while doing nothing to incentivize people from participating on either end.
Mage Tower was a better way imo, but I don't think wow players would be happy with gatekeeping m+ in any way.
Well … there are companion dungeons and delves. Those go a long way to teach gameplay and mechanics.
I have an idea. Rating system should not be related to timing, but your personal utility usage and maybe extra smth. Lets say, you are shaman: there is no way you did zero interups or stuns in a run. You did not used defensive there huge dmg is unavoidable-represent in on ratings. Lastly, if you did something really bad, there should be some message to teach you, not just punish you. If I m not mistaken, ppl leave keys, because somehow they rating on some website appears bigger, not sure if its true, but that would be really bad
I’m a 2800 sweaty pug and I’d say the issues with M+ are: The meta. Blizzard should give us back scrolls to help with there always needs to be a lust and a couple battle resurrections in the group. Those two things alone are the base level of what forms the Meta. Battle Resurrections and lust should be spells that all players receive when they enter a dungeon. That would at least lower the requirements of what classes you have to bring. They should also give us a way to better figure out who to invite to your group and a proper reporting system for bad behavior inside the dungeon.
I just dont get it how no content creator mentions that mythic 8 should give myth 1 track rewards on the vault, it gives myth level gear upgrade crests....but with no gear for you to upgrade, i mean we are give the sermon about fun in mythic plus, how fun is it to fill your vault at the end of the week and get a nice piece of gear next week? to me it feels amazing!!!!!! every week is chirstmas in wow if they make mythic 8 drop myth track on the vault. Same goes for dinar. The rewards arent fun mate, no problem with hard content, never was a problem, the problem is the rewards. Mythic is very hard this season... ok rewards should be amazing! Same goes for Mythic raiding... Players will do hard content and even find it fun if the reward at the end justifies the effort. At the moment the game, in the mythic plus system feels extremely unrewarding for dificulty. 10 nowadays feel like 12 last season, which is normal since we have tyranical and fortified at the same time. i mean i get it, you are abig time stremear with huge D, but surely you leveled some alts and felt that filing the vault with Mythic 10+ keys is not fun, must certainly you would prefer to be mythic8 after. Dungeons feel insane for must of pugs because they are weak mate, they are not well equiped for the dificulty, and theyt have a huge wall that doesnt allows to get gear, in the past that wall was a week worth of your time, this time around the wall is dungeon dificulty, that's even worst, because if you like me you are 6 to 7 weeks openings vaults on 4 character with no upgrade. It isn't Fun!!!! Get out of your high horse giga gear place and see, we lack acess to gear to make hard content more acessible. With all that said thank you for the video. I wish you the best, hope it gets lots of views.
I actually agree with you on the vault. I'm not doing mythic raiding this season so at best I'll have 3 rewards to choose from, and for the last 3 weeks I've taken tokens due to my vault being filled with either gear I already have or gear I do not need. It really sucks seeing 2 cloaks with the wrong stats and a trinket I already have. Idk would be nice to see a change that guarantees you actually get an upgrade from the vault and not just disappointment.
Edit: simply due to the randomness of the vault, one of my alts with significantly less play time has geared up faster or pretty much on par with my main and that really makes it feel like all that time spent playing my main was wasted.
I agree. +8/9 should have mythic loot in the vault. In prior seasons you could max out your vault without needing every affix present. Not to mention 10s are both tyr and fort, which was not something that had to be dealt with before for max vault rewards.
I really think what they should do is for especially for d. PS is to have like their stuns and interrupts, specifically like AOE stunts to enable the dp. S to do more damage, so it would only benefit them in the overall DPS I'd do at the end of the dungeon. You know, make it more rewarding to interrupt. S make it more rewarding to sdone. Talk to text speech so this might look really weird
Simple Solution for dungeon mobs -- Less Damage/More Punishment
Mobs Abilities:
- AoE Slows that last 30-45 seconds
- AoE Heal that heals the entire pack of mobs
- AoE Buffs that give the packs leech
- AoE Debuffs (Non-Removable) that reduce Haste/Attack Speed for 10-15 seconds.
There are ways that you can punish players for missing kicks/dispels that doesn't kill a key -- Missing a kick on a AoE Heal basically resets the pack and you have to kill it twice. Its annoying, but the punishment for missing the kick is time loss. It also the fault of the whole group, can't blame the healer, unless it was their turn to kick. --- But it causes less toxicity, because its far less likely to brick a key.
nice video jak. always love to hear your takes. you bring nuance to these discussions. appreciate ya.
Thanks! Appreciate that!
Just a question/idea. Is there not a way for blizzard to just have spells cast by enemies scale a bit more with key level up to like a +12 area? Like at a +4 spells are cast way less often than a +8. But still have them do big damage, so someone could die because the fewer spells are still needing to be kicked or big bad things happen so you keep the learning of kicks. This way you don’t need as high of a level of coordination in what should be a more pug friendly key level. As you get closer to a 10 or a 12, the interrupt/stop requirements get closer and closer to what we have now.
the main problem is, that Blizz can't read and analyse their own data in order to derive measures to improve the game, this applies to all content.
this applies to all of their games 😂. they killed so many games in the last years.
they have to not let 2-3 mobs to target a single person with their casts... you can survive 1 in case interrupt did not go out..
please give us a reason to try and push keys with added cosmetic rewards between the portals and title level keys... idc if its just a weapon illusion just give us something
I think now there is alternatives to getting gear other than m+ and raid people that never enjoyed M+ are not running them. And only the people that really enjoy it are left which is a lot smaller pool.
Not everyone enjoys or wants to do M+ and it's good they can get gear another way.
Get rid of timers, depletions and Im fine. While theyre at it get rid of addon access to WOW information as well.
solo queue is absolutely necessary but it needs to NOT be limited to +2-9. It needs to be a primary game mode like solo shuffle is for pvp. It does not need to be related to keystones at all. There is NO reason dungeon scaling needs to be 10% per key level, for solo queue, it should be MMR related. Scaling is percent based on mmr rating, no keystone breakpoints. To address infinite scaling causing eventual 1shot break point for pass/fail (players outright dying, or not) have player health scale with monster damage, to challenge healers in the same way mob health scaling challenges dps. It's so simple and obvious but they just won't listen or refuse to do it for some weird stubborn internal reasons.
I think they also should do dungeons more healer/tank friendly like less spike damages, less ik mechanics. More mechanics that requie healers to have "fun" to heal, not stress every ability to have cds ready. And also dungeons should be harder for DPS, like bosses maybe more hp etc. Dungeons should be more about dps than surviving every pack in the dungeon.
Graveyards need to be updated after every boss kill in *every* dungeon.
Like 4% of people play tank, 5% of people play healer.
Until systems are in place to address that - m+ is over for most of the player base bace because as a tank/healer I can be beyond picky in who I take on runs.
Oh God please do not remove the timer
One thing you didn't touch on at all is how many of the dungeons in this season were overtuned
Blizzard has been tuning down aspects of these dungeons from week 1 all the way to last week! Blizzard's designers for whatever reason came to the conclusion that their first pass for things like Surgeon Stitchflesh wasn't where they wanted it. Remember the kraken in Siege of Boralus? During the first week the Demolisher Tentacles caused obnoxious knockbacks.
This season has had a lot of experimenting going on in, addition to being tuned higher. Tank changes, healer/damage changes, the interrupt changes, and affix changes, in addition to the new pool. So it's really hard to just pin any one aspect being out of line when all the changes are taken together.
Honestly I think this season is a result of what people have been suggesting.
Wanting less focus on affixes, more on the dungeon.
Healers doing more healing.
Punishing bozo dps for not using their defensives or interrupts.
While at the same it is reaction to how previous seasons were played.
Just judging by the line-up for M+ next season I expect next season to be pretty similar. But I think dfficulty creep is a real potential issue.
I like how in the clip where you comment on random silences you have two paladins and neither is running the interrupt/silence aura.
Agreed, I've been saying it for years! The encounter design and balance teams need to back off and do less. Legion was the most fun specifically because the dungeons weren't over-engineered. The game is better when the main content is easier and more accessible. Mythic plus's auto-scaling guarantees 'numbers difficulty' eventually, so when Blizzard tries to add difficulty in other ways, they simultaneously make the game less fun for everyone, while gatekeeping most of the player base out of content. Then we get distracted and spend years chasing tuning and affix rabbit holes, when the core gameplay is the underlying cause.
Blizzard needs fix affix and depel. As a healer, i feel blizzard intentionally attacking healers, making jobs harder, and DPS refuses to interrupt / depel them self's.
I feel like they need to step away from designing based on the assumption that every player is using all their tools. I miss the days when using your defensive and utility was skill expression and not a requirement. The draw of M+ for me was that the sweats could infinitely scale to a requirement but I can play with the goobers in my guild and still get my portals even if they miss a few kicks.
Depletion of keys must be removed, on every +X, not just for highest ones. You have more players that are less invested in lower keys that are more likely to quit the system if their time will be wasted with depletion. Those high-key-pushers are way more invested into the game and thus less likely to quit.
Same with crests and those tiers of gear (adventurer/hero/etc) - I attempted to introduce few new players to wow and those currency mixed with different quality made them disangage fro mthat, isntead of reading on how to get proper crests they want. Somehow other, better games can handle it with one default item that just climbs up and up.
2k+ over many m+ runs, only pugging, , but if I was motivated, I know i could keep progressing based on how I clear 8 and 9s; but what keeps holding me back is the constant meta and character changes. i had to quit playing mm hunter after 11.0.5 because i went from top of the DPS to below the tank. this was soul crushing. i rerolled to SV hunter, which is pretty fun and am near top 100 in my server's mythic group, but do the difficulty of getting invites I am waste a lot of my time playing an alt frost DK, which I think will be better if I wanted to do 12+, as I like the tankiness and it's burst with breath is so awesome.
Anyway, there's no point, as things will get nerfed, and i'll have to reroll to get invites as DPS, etc... Also we need a soloque. Let me input my key range, and look for groups with DPS availible, select my dungeons, and then I can play the game why I'm waiting forever in queue i'm not meta.
Trouble is classes have had so many stops added to their abilities so they plan the dungeons around them. Remove all except 1 interrupt for each person. Maybe even have to have hard cc again.
I think when it comes to casters and archers that spam filler abilities that scale WAY too hard, they already solved it with the afflicted (ghost chase you) affix. Just cap the scaling of ranged filler abilities at a 5 key or scale it to do % dmg that caps at 25%, no reason a web bolt should be hitting someone for 80% of their damn hp.
Edit: just noticed you got ellesmere as ret, is holy really that cooked?
Agree with a lot, I think the maze mini game is pretty nice in Mists of Thirna Scithe tho, annoying maybe. But as a healer I see it as my role to do it and it makes me alert (since the weakaura doesnt work all the time I do it manually). I'd like to see more of these things. Things that make you pay attention the environment , the DUNGEON. love that stuff
As a healer main you probably wont like this, but just looking at numbers of people playing…
Tank and healer should be the “easiest” roles. The key should time or deplete on dps, since everyone and their dog want to dps, force ‘em to maximize their output. If they start by making tanking and healing “easier”, at least people playing hybrid classes that can easily swap spec wouldn’t feel so bad playing a tank or heals if needed because it would just feel chill (bring back gf pocket healer). Even if this makes those roles more boring. Start there.
Then blizz can rethink ways to make those roles fun and engaging again, but start at an approachable difficulty level.
I agree, though, that unavoidable damage challenging healer output is probably better, because it would appeal to ungabunga dps brain. But it needs to be in such a way that you aren’t feeling like you are going to have a heart attack every pull. Dps doesn’t really feel that way.
Taking the focus off surviving would be a good start. Perhaps scale mob health harder but not their damage (as much).
One thing they could do like right away is atleast remove the death penalty timer of 15 sec. That is just stupid.
I think they balance way to much around "The race to world first" they make things incredibly hard for that as well as the MDI and everyone else just has to tag along till stuff is nerfed since not all of us can play wow as a job like some of those guilds are able to. I'm 3200 this season and it just feels like they killed this season so quickly with challengers peril along with some other issues.
Blizzard couldn’t save leftovers let alone m+
Damn i have youtube premium to avoid adds, and now all the creators just put them straight in video, wtf
sponsorblock.
Amén!🙏
It’s horrible.
Timestamps are you friend. Pretty easy to get around. They are just trying to make a living
Hey Jack - what's the website at 2:09 ?
Warcraftlogs/Archon
You are on to a lot of improvements that would see this game return to being an MMO. get back to making a game that you can chat while playing with your friends. Focus on building a character that can achieve a power fantasy, get rid of level scaling mobs they completely ruin the feel of any progression in a loot based MMO, why have loot if the same dungeon will just scale with me? and get away from the skill capped focus game play that turns this game into DDR with your fingers. the moments that I remember most from WOW were chatting after school with friends while we raided because the down time and the speed of the game allowed for us to have time to focus on the community part of the game. I remember get ashkandi and my Warrior being so geared that we would tank with a two hander just for fun. the content felt like I had built a character in a world that they were truly epic in and only the few end game bosses scaled to the epicness of gear. Even in BIS gear you will still be sweating your fingers off playing beethoven moonlight sonata. This is not fun. Now it feels more like a hamster on a wheel waiting for the numbers to go up but no feeling of change in the world no feeling of progression.
How about dropping actual Myth gear in +10 and above?? Also you can easily complete a key by pulling 1-2 packs of trash at a time. Why do tanks feel like they need to pull 4+ packs?!?!
You are talking about the highest end Mythic Plus. If you want to have fun and banter with your group then run Lower Keys. If you're going to be running the highest level content in Mythic plus then you and your group are going to need to cc and interrupt
Answer is simple: no negative timers and death penalty until later keys. That’s it!
The problem isn't the game, it is player's expectations. Every noob out there knows that mythic raiding is hard and not everyone can get CE, but for some strange reason, every noobs think they can do a +12 and they cry and blame Blizzard and other players that it is too hard while standing in shit to click on their skill icon.
Dawn breaker being your favorite dungeon is a hot take.
Personal opinion is that every season needs a dungeon like dawn. Dawns biggest issue aside from bugs is its the worst speed dungeon wow has ever made. They should look at freehold as the example for overall design make make the mob changes talked about here, and you would have a dungeon everyone loves to do even if they don't need score or rewards. Its fun on its own. Most seasons have at a minimum, one dungeon like this. This season it ended up being dawn and it is by far the worst quick dungeon experience of all time.
I wonder if this is a video idea? Best spam dungeon of each season. What makes them fun. Why it is important to have at least one and why you can't have every dungeon like this.
Have myth track gear drop at 12 or 14. Crazy M+ has to pray for decent myth track gear outta vault.
honestly there design this season makes no sense they wanted to give us more health so health bars arn't ping ponging but they already are at like a +7. they wanted CC to be weaker but its needed more than ever. Not even gonna speak on tanks cause everyone know the infamous post.
Bring Shadowland level of healing back, I promise there will be way more healers playing.
I wish there was a better progression path. Delves are sending new players from tier 8 delves into M+8. That gap is absolutely horrendous. New players must struggle for weeks in low keys with a metric ton of mechanics in a highly toxic environment. You can’t blame them for nope’ing out of that experience.
They can reduce the amount of mechanics in m+ by like 50% and there would still be plenty going on. Its probably the same in raids but I dont know, I quit raiding in SL cuz of how annoying the fights have become.
I have not participated in M+ content because I don't enjoy the content. The only times in the past that I have has been only to either farm a trinket or gain some other form of progression to support raid.
If they were to remove the timer for the first 10 levels and have that content easier, less demanding, and there for he progression then I'd participate much more often. Then for those who want the challenge, and desire the high-level gameplay, then can make 11+ timer based for the best rewards, but also the hardest challenge.
I love videos like this, amazing content...Thanks
Almost every 12+ key I've bricked has been from CC. Damage, healing and mechanics are generally fine, but one cast goes off in 30 mins and that's the key. Really lame and enforces comp metas far below where they would normally be needed.
Like, why would anyone bring a shadow priest this season? 45s kick and 45s stop that hardly does anything just doesn't cut it for these CC heavy dungeons.
Great takes
would be nice to introduce some sort of m+ talent system where you can pick B-ress for healers or give us an item we can get thru content that does it, same with BL... beacuse i have having to compose my groups around needing BL and CR... that kills a lot of class variations... like warriors, rogues have neither
Hey Jak, about Cyrce's Circlet - QE has a link for gem sims and they recommend different gems than are on the wowhead guide. What do you think?
I thought my guides were in line with QE. I’m away for Christmas so I’ll double check when I get home
@ thanks. They seem to recommend the gems that have bonus healing cantrips. Thanks for everything you do.
Hmm I only see the aoe hot proc if you only focus on healing. But the “both” tab is recommending the ones I have in my guides right?
@ actually under both it has 2 of the 3 you suggest but the Legendary Skippers one instead of the Windsinger’s runed citrine. That’s for holy/raid.
@@AutomaticJak QE also says that the Legendary Skippers is the best healing one overall if everyone uses it. Not sure why, I guess because it can proc any gem effect?
Removing the timer would be the stupidest move. A big problem with S1 is that due to delves rewarding such high UPGRADABLE gear, people were easily out gearing like 2-6 keys, so many tried to just get into 7s or something with no knowledge of the dungeons and its a miserable experience. but anything lower is a waste of time. also theres some division cuz people who played these older expansions know the dungeons, but people who didnt do not, so there is this air of "expectation" to just know what to do, when a lot dont. TONS of people dont know wtf to do in the tirna scythe maze.
i dont know how big of a population would actually do this, but if the timer was gone and we got a death counter, guarantee there would be people complaining not to pull big, which leads to slow and boring dungeons. if someone pulled big and there was a death due to missed interrupts, people would get mad at others for throwing or trolling, and probably leave cuz youve already lost a life that early on. and then yeah ofc if the tank dies its usually a wipe so there goes all your lives. the timer is kind of an affix for your dps to deal with, basically the only responsibility they have.
idk how gear from delves will work next patch but i hope they make it not upgradable so youre still forced to go do low keys to see and learn the dungeon
Hmmm ttueee ppl def skipped early key levels because they already had better gear from delves
Nerfing delve gear wont fix the problem of people not knowing what to do in mythic plus. People are still going to go into them and have no clue what to do. Most people who ran delves were perfectly content with staying in them until they learned that there was no way to upgrade there gear and that they had to do mythic plus in order to do it. The biggest problem with mythic plus is a combination nerf to tank survivability and healer healing output while performing a stat squish and keeping damage in mythic plus dungeons relatively equivalent to dragonflight.
@@pyramus7958 i mean yeah it wont FIX the problem but it would definitely help. if people get hard stuck a low il then they would have to do m+, hopefully starting at low numbers which wont always happen we are all aware of this. and the tank nerf mattered at launch but doesnt exist at all anymore, so its really not a talking point anymore. theres literally clips of m+ runs where the prot paladin is doing 2m HPS and doing like triple the healer. once tanks get some of their favoured secondary stat theyre good to go
@@ramones1314 There is a reason why prot paladins are meta right now. They have insane survivability and healing. Not every tank is fairing as well. Vengeance DH, blood dks and brewmasters are insanely squishy. Blizzard did the patented over nerf everything. I think the season 2 change with delves now dropping gilded crests from t11 will keep all of the people who dont want to be in mythic plus out of mythic plus.
@@pyramus7958 yeah and thats why its like the only tank doing 19s but thats not anywhere near just the normal average player. every tank is super viable to do 12 13 14 etc. tanks are fine they literally just needed their haste or whatnot
I honestly think an M+ solo queue just won't work but have a question for those that want it. Lets say I play a tank and can do 10's why would I queue into a group? The solo queue group may suck but likely best case is passable for doing a 10 when I can post my key and very likely get 3 over qualified dps or join a key with a well thought out group.
Well what if Quinn as a tank once you’ve already completed that difficulty of key gave you bonus rewards ( ex. Extra crest multiplier, or even double progress on your vault) would you then consider using the que system. Every version of equable dungeons has a reward present and displayed ( for tanks and healers some times even bonus bags) on the que board. Incentives would be the reason
I think a lot of people look for reasons as to why A que system wouldn’t work instead of thinking of ways they could make the que system attractive to more players
Keys would be extremly boring if it was just tank and spank the whole way like everyone wants.
Sucks but dps players need to use their brains and cc/interrupt/press defensives.
Blizzard should homogenise the dispell system, and reduce the number of interruptions required, given the inequality between classes. For the rest, this season was great. Great dungeons selections and a good response to tune hard dungeons compared to previous expansion and incoming season.
I sadly stop playing so early into the expansion cause of how late mythic + started it felt like it toke forever for the season to start. I hope they never do thwt again lol.
8:41
no thank you this will make it harder for low-level M+, more will Quit this game
you call for tanks nerf and we end up with fewer tanks playing this game
For me, if they just revert this stupid change where AoE stops don't stop mobs from casting straight after, then I am happy again. And mythic track back to 4 or give myth track from high keys. 14+ or smth
Key lvl squish wasnt that good
Many of my friends strugle to kill +12 key huge jump from +11 so they rather do weekly and waiting for new season
When im playing solo 14-15 keys they are more easy to time than 12 huge skill gap
imo its better to have more keys lvl so ppl can learn slowly okay this will oneshot me on this lvl so i need to pop deff
But rn the jump in diff is that big... almost every mistake will kill you on +12 and ppl are not used to it from lower key
Removal of 2-10 keys stopped people who were scared of group from even playing. Those people quit the game when it came in, and I no longer play my alts. Now they prevent me having access to myth track gear AND added a 2nd affix to the +10 level, making the game simply not fun. My m+ group has now quit. I wish I never bothered with this xpac, and I'm done now. DFS3 was fun, TWW is not fun. Very simple.
you have zero use of myth track gear if you aren't playing +12 and above, and if you do then you have it in your vault doing 10s. you can play +10s like what whos preventing you? xd its december, so easy to pug all dungeons on 10
Too much going on at the same time.
I'm tired of people saying that players don't know whats going on and need to learn. This is the end of the season and its just as bad as at the start. They know what to interrupt and stop, but coordination is just impossible in pugs. Important stuff gets controlled but by 2 or 3 people at the same time and then everyone is out of cds.
The fact that we still have affixes to solve while 4 other mechanics are going on is ridiculous. The fact that affixes require crowd control and dispels is a joke.
The worst part about all of this, is that this is supposed to be the alt expansion, but m+ feels like is made for mains only. Who the fuck is playing flawless on their alts? And thats what is required even in lower keys.
I think M+ has been broken for so long that we are just a bit fed up and not doing it anymore. I don't think blizzard will make it good, they are too stubborn in their ways.
If they could stop creeping up the game's difficulty every expansion, that'd be nice. Getting a basic weekly +10 done and timed has never felt so sweaty and it seems like it has passed the point of enjoyment for a lot of players this season.
1.- Remove interrupts from healer. You shouldn't have it. I am a main healer and it's just adds more unbalance to the equation.
2.- Remove dungeons that the majority of the community doesn't like, like Theater of Pain. No one likes it since it was announced. It's shows you don't listen to the community and only yourself (and your belly button).
3.- Remove the interrupt rework. If you successfully interrupt something, you should have a period of grace and safety (you earned it).
4.- Remove Valorstones, they are useless and like the obsolete Siren Isle ring systems shows, it's only uses slots in your bags (the amount of gems and resources tied to it's stupid).
5.- Increases the crest and gold reward after each key. Make the rewards feels like rewards.
6.- Create systems where if a party member doesn't does a mechanic, the healer isn't the responsible of fixing this (disarm, undispelleable silence, screen turns black for a few seconds for example). Your mistake are your owns.
7.- Get rid of the idea this is a Dark Souls for 5 player mode. It's an MMO-RPG. You should be punished if you do a mistake, but not a straight death. The threshold is tied to the key level. So not a single mechanic should one shot you on low levels. Different thing is you stand purposely on fire, then you can die by accumulated damage over time.
Dark Souls works because it's a single player mode (or with a few but loyal friends) where you control all the variables. M+ it's literally the opposite of this.
you realise that if they removed interrupts from healers the group would still not interrupt, you are at their mercy instead of being able to do it yourself and you still get the blame if someone dies?
@@Eovielle how about actually giving priest healers interrupts
I'm for it if shaman healers also get an external @@C0rnvillain
Why no one care about getting mythic lvl loot in dungeon? I have only two season in this game but if I remember it was the case in S2 DF. It leaves RiO the only reason to push.
I don't get what u want them to do. It's infinite scaling content. For example they nerf something ur stuck on in a plus 10 great now you can push that key to a plus 20 where it will one shot you again and you will complian, they will nerf and you will push said key to a point where it will one shot you again. Now im not specifically saying this what you do personally, I'm just using you as an example here. You always get to a point where you just cannot time the key. We need to be careful of what we ask for or we could end up with wotlk hcs. I've been happy playing m plus since they released it. What im unhappy with that it changes every season and I have to adapt to these changes like I did in this season and now we are talking about removing the timer and everything. How long before it just isn't my plus anymore?
I think making trash more like DB and parts of Stonevault is much better than GB trash for example.
Yes content scaling is infinite but there’s a muchhhh smoother difficulty curve w the way they design and tune interrupts in keys between those two examples
I was thinking about same thing as you just said, until this season. For example; scaling key levels between 1-10 limits the levels you can play as a semi/hard core player for like 10-11 and there is a threshold for +12 which if you are not meta you dont get invite. But if i can do key levels like up until 30, i have a chance to go for 20-30 each level each dungeon is a new chance for me to get rio. So i can encourage to play 20,21,23,24,25 which i did previous expansion. But now i stuck 11s...
@@AutomaticJak As a healer I agree, that a lot more smaller but unavoidable damage (either pulsing or casts/shots that don't oneshot) that we need to heal through, would make a lot more engaging and fun experience. The issue is, that with infinite scaling that unavoidable dmg becomes unhealable at some point. To me the only solution to that would be to cap or lower the dmg scaling of keys so at one point your biggest challenge become to do enough dmg to finish the run in time. That would result in bigger pulls with again more difficulty, but I feel it's better to let players choose their pulls and try to overcome them rather than having to CC and kick everything otherwise you're just one-shot.
@@AutomaticJakand how keystone difficulty are imbalanced between dungeons make a big difference
True!
Too often i hear people talk about what's fun in wow and that they dont like interrupting or dispells or using defensive cd and all i can think is most wow players want the best gear in the game just by doing a rotation like ???
Or you know, no priest interrupts, dumbass minute long solar beam interrupts or having to sit in bear form as a caster and doing nothing for 5-8 seconds when other classes are literally running around with 12 second interrupts.
More frequent and separate balancing between M+ and raid. it is a joke how long it takes overperforming specs to be nerfed and underperforming specs to be buffed. I always hated FOTM, but I tried Prot Paladin and it really is sad how much easier and better it is than every other tank. That should have been identified and correctly quickly. Possibly even hotfixed.
Yeah very true. These balance patches have barely changed the meta at all this season
sadly gb dungeon marking just repeats its self each time they bring a very old dung . which means they dont change the old dungeon good enough. so many cc and interrupts are just so toxic in keys . i also hate how in ara kara despite it being ezier key there are some packs with high density intrupt packs which will do st big damage bolta or even packs at ends which adds are are ao annoying to slow players . i don't think they need to do that
An unpopular opinion here. I dont like massive pulls. I can handle them good but the mentality of dps just pumping and not taking any other responsability is one of the things that has made the dps community quite toxic. Some extent of big pull i like, for example the first corridor of SV without the pulls from the boss room: that massive pull is 100% doable but i should require more coordination that your average pull. Making pulld bigger just to catter to dps egos will only maje them less patient and more entitled that they already are.
Soloqueue 0-10 (included !)! >.
please god no queue system
All they gotta do is just make tanks like dragonflight and remove challengers peril. I get blizzard dont know how to read and trying other stuff that will never work.