Naked Bible Podcast 109 - John 10, Gods Or Men?
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2017
- In view of Mike’s work on the divine council and Psalm 82 in his best-selling book, The Unseen Realm: Recovering the Supernatural Worldview of the Bible, many have asked what’s going on in John 10, where Jesus defends his deity by quoting Psalm 82. The consensus interpretation has the gods of Psalm 82 as only people - Jewish elders or Israelites at Sinai (both of which are unmentioned in Psalm 82). How does that approach make sense when Jesus needs to defend statements of equality with the Father elsewhere in the chapter (John 10:30, 38)? Mike’s view is that such an approach makes no sense at all - and that there is much more coherent alternative.
• Mike laid out his view in a conference paper accessible on the
Unseen Realm’s companion website (Chapter 4 tab). Mike's slide
presentation may be downloaded here (powerpoint slideshow):
www.nakedbiblepodcast.com/wp-c...
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Heiser might literally be the only person who gets this passage right. Jesus was not singing Kumbaya with the Pharisees here. When you get this passage right, it turns into one of the most POWERFUL passages in scripture. Nothing can snatch us out of His hands, folks.
This is the best explanation of John 10 I have ever come across!
I miss this man and his teachings so much. We have lost him, Chuck Missler and Tom Horn all so fast. But they are at the feet of our Lord now, lucky men. I owe them so much.
This explains this mystery the best! Thank God first your work in explaining these difficult passages Dr Heiser
This is good stuff to abolish the new agers, because they liike to quote that.
This made me smile from ear to ear. Many new agers deeply believe in the old pagan gods and goddesses of old too. This validates that their small g gods 'elohim' exist. Many swear on their life with encounters from the 'other side'. They are so right. And here is Jesus affirming it. There are other gods, and no... humans are not gods.
@@mariansmith9685 New agers think that they are gods themselves. This proves that Jesus didn't think nor taught that human beings are gods.
@@kamilkowalski776 I was once a new ager. I'm familiar with the way they think. That's why it makes me smile. This debate is check and mate.
@@mariansmith9685 We have to be careful when we using the word 'gods' because for different people it means different things. We as Christians know that there is only one God, but there are also "angels, powers and principalities in the heavenly places". I believe this New Testament terminology corresponds very well with the old testament. And if we take a look at number of religions today, we can clearly see there are various spiritual entities out there who rebelled against God. Just wanted to make sure my point in clear.
@@kamilkowalski776 you must understand that I am very aware of your point and have been for a long time already.
Always a pleasure and learning experience
Fantastic lesson! Thank you and God bless.
Thank you Heiser
Thank you, Mike. Doesn't John, in his first chapter of his gospel reference Jesus with the name "Word", as in; "And the (Word) was God"? Again, thank you.
Wow I was right when I told this to a pastor when I was 17 years old . That how I understood what Jesus the man the word became flesh ..
I think Dr Heiser is absolutely right. I am no big expert but when Ps 82:6 says "YOU" are gods- "you"=atem in Hebrew 2nd p.plural, refers to those who are addressed in the whole psalm, ie the other elohim. God does not speak to humans in that psalm. So verse 6 cannot be applied to humans but to the elohim God is speaking to in Ps 82. They are those "to whom the word of God came" (John 10:35) in the quoted Psalm.
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Not to not pick but I was under the impression that Angels were Devine beings in physical form. Not nessicarily human form
Yes, Robert you are right. They are divine beings originating from God's company and His heavenly places. They CAN materialize into humans for the assignment that has been given to them by God if they serve God. If they don't serve God and they have rebelled against Him they serve their own purposes but still can materialize as humans.
Not really sure how this argument can be made. Heiser says that the nation of Israel didn't exist at the time of deuteronomy 32; that's wrong.
Everyone knows that the book of exodus comes before the book of Deuteronomy chronologically which means that the nation of Israel did in fact exist during deuteronomy 32:8 which means that its definitely possible that 32:8 refers to humans
He's saying that the nation of Israel didn't exist during the time period that Deuteronomy 32 is referencing, i.e. whenever the tower of babel was constructed.
@@rataroto3065 I'm so confused. I don't know
@@firstnamelastname3280 well in Deuteronomy 32:8 it it speaks of "when" the Most High gave the nations their inheritance. That was at the tower of Babel when they disobeyed God. At that time Israel himself didn't even exist, let alone the nation.
@@rataroto3065 I agree that at that time, Israel didn't exist yet. Are you sure though that we can understand deuteronomy 32 8 as flashing back to that? It makes a huge difference in timing.
Also, in genesis 12 I think (or is it 13), wasn't gods covenant about Israel with Abraham made?
@@firstnamelastname3280 Heiser outlines in his book unseen realm the reasons for deuteronomy 32:8 being a reference to the babel event. Suffice to say nothing else quite matches. Yes the promise to Abraham was regarding Israel, but the tower of babel was long before him too.
Hi.
Thanks for posting. I'm enjoying these Naked Bible podcasts. Mike's teaching is very interesting.
I don't have any problem with the concept of a divine council. Psalm 89:5-8 clearly teaches it.
However, I'm not convinced that Psalm 82 does.
How can heavenly beings die, as per verse 7, when Jesus apparently taught that they can't - see Luke 20:36...?
God bless.
That’s why it says they’ll die like men, presupposing they couldn’t die before Father God judged them.
@@JosephQPublic Indeed. Its judgement. Day of the Lord.
You think God can not destroy gods?
He didn’t mean a “physical death” like we are accustomed to, but rather a “spiritual death”! Same as Adam & Eve when they fell, the moment they disobeyed God, they died….how do know, because they immediately knew of things affiliated with the physical realm that prior to their disobedience was not obvious to them. Hence, they KNEW they were naked, since they catered to the physical realm rather than the spiritual, it superseded what they were created to be…”spiritual beings”. 🙏🏿
So, Jesus is the angel of yhwh
New
The Word of God is Jesus. He's talking of Himself.
Gen 1 is ELOHIYM 430 only. Parthanogenesis verse 27
Created Bara H1254 Male and Female
Gen 2 is LORD H3068 ELOHIYM-430 Formed YATSAR H3335
We have angel and demon seed in us this is why its a dual system oneside up ANA in GREEK onside down KATA in GREEK we must accept Emmanu-EL as our Savior and turn both sides UP. HE CAME TO MAKE THE TWO ONE!
😊😃🙂
VERY CLEAR that Jesus tells us who the gods/elohim are in both Psalm 82 and John 10 are human. Jesus has OWNERSIP to the answer. Not Heiser.
Asaph the Prophet writes ESV Psalm 82: 1 "God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:>>>>>>word of the Lord (God/Father) comes to prophet Asaph
Psalm 82:6 - “I said, you are gods.”>>>>>>>>God (Father speaking thru prophet Asaph) WHY word of the Lord came to prophets like Asaph Psalm 82.
John 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),">>>>>Jesus who is God (Son) Fulfills the words that God (Father) had spoken thru Asaph to Humans.
Note in Psalm 82: 1, ESV uses "divine council" other translations use "congregation of the mighty" or "great assembly".
Check out the order Jesus uses “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),"
Law "gods" and Prophets (word of the Lord came to Prophets of God)
What this is saying at who is in the Middle of the Law and the Prophets, that would be the "gods". The "gods" that Jesus is referencing are from Psalm 82.
The "gods" are human and would be the Jews, becasue the Jews were given the Law and had the true Prophets of God. With that said the "gods" are human Jesus has Ownership to the answer of the "gods" of Psalm 82 found in John 10. Heiser is CHEATING Jesus out of the answer and throwing Jesus under the bus. Heiser has lead so many astray with his explanation of Psalm 82. Scripture clearly tells us that the Jews were given the Law and had the Prophets, NOT a bunch of super angels that Heiser promotes. Super angels were NEVER given the Law or had the Prophets of God.
Key points (7)
1.What Heiser NEVER explains the "Job Description" of prophets in the Old Testament. Most people are even unaware of who wrote Psalm 82. Asaph the prophet wrote Psalm 82 as well as other Psalms 50, 73-81 and 83. Prophets were the "VOICE" of God that is why it is IMPORTANT that Jesus Repeats and Fulfills these words...... Psalm 82:6 - “I said, you are gods.” ........John 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),"
Prophets would handle and carry the word of the Lord in the Old Testament, they were the representative of the words God whated to say>>>> the "Voice" of God. Jesus (Son) is fulfill in the New Testament what God (Father) had spoken thru the prophet. Even Moses is in the likeness of God to Pharoh, Exodus 7:1 "And the LORD said to Moses, “See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron shall be your prophet."
2. Since Jesus is repeating what the Father had spoken and said thru the prophtet like Asaph. Since Jesus (Son) is addressing "HUMANS" in John 10, the same is that the God (Father) speaking thru the prophet Asaph in Psalm 82 (Asaph the "Voice" of God) would be addressing HUMANS in Psalm 82. Heiser likes to leave out the "I said" declaration of Jesus (Son) in John 10 and the the "I said" by God (Father) speaking thru the Prophet Asaph of Psalm 82. Jesus is God, God is ONE God made up of 3 persons Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The "I said" delararation is no different than an "I am" declaration.
3. The Godhead/Trinity This is how the 3 persons within the Godhead opearate and function. Only the Holy Spirit (God) can convince a person to understand why the Son (God) has to fulfill the words that the Father (God) that were spoken by the prophet like Asaph and other prophets as well in the Old Testament. It is Said that Jesus has fulfilled over 350 prophecies of in the New Testament from the prophets from the Old Testament. Even Isaiah the prophet who wrote Isaiah 53 was the "Voice" of God in the Old Testament, so Jesus can Fulfill what was said in Isaiah 53.....Isaiah 53 is about the Crucifixion of Christ. Jesus has Ownership to both prophets Isaiah and Asaph of what they wrote and how God (Father) spoke thru them. Prophets were given the word of the Lord
4. Jesus is the word/Word become flesh John 1: 14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." Jesus fulfills the Law and the Prophets, Jesus says in Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." No super angels of a divine council were ever given the Law and the Prophets, it would be the Nation of Israel
5. To address to "die like men" In Psalm 82: 7 is Referring to those bad elders, rulers, leaders or judges within the nation of Israel that have High Authority, they favor the wicked and judge unjustly, they do not follow through with their responsibilities, duties, and do not represent God or the law, these High Officials are just men, they have High Rank so they will die like men. They are human not divine beings. God has always set up rulers within the nation of Israel and even throughout the world.
In Numbers 11: 16 “So the LORD said to Moses: “Gather to Me seventy men of the elders of Israel, whom you know to be the elders of the people and officers over them; bring them to the tabernacle of meeting, that they may stand there with you.”
1 Samuel 8 : 1-4 When Samuel became old, he made his sons judges over Israel. 2 The name of his firstborn son was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. 3 Yet his sons did not walk in his ways but turned aside after gain. They took bribes and perverted justice. 4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah.
God has ALWAYS set up Governements in the world not just with in the Nation of Israel, Romans 13: 1 "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God."
6. Clearly the "gods/elohim" of Psalm 82 are human judges, some even apply kings. The Old Testament has a book called Judges as well as two other books 1 Kings & 2 Kings. No book in scripture is applied to something nonhuman or angelic. Psalm 82:6 "“I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’.... The word "sons" used in this passage is an "Adoptive" Term for Israel, Israel was the chosen people of God.
7. Psalm 89 has NOTHING to do with Psalm 82. Hieser likes to mix those chapters together. Psalm 89 is in the heavenly and spirtual realm when Psalm 82 is on the earth and the physical world. The same logic heavenly and spiriitual would apply to 2 Chronicles 18:21 and 1 Kings 22:19-23 where it mentions a scene in heaven and the lying spirit. The heavenly hosts in scripture refers to the sun, moon and stars.
In Summary
The Humans are Jewish rulers in both Psalm 82 and John 10. Psalm 82 Jewish rulers like judges or even kings. John 10 Jewish rulers like pharissees. Psalm 82 would be human, NOT a bunch of super angels, like Heiser promotes. Heiser throws Jesus under the bus. Heiser CANNOT answer the question of the gods/elohim of Psalm 82 becasue Jesus has already answered the question of the gods/elohim in John 10. Jesus has Ownership to the answer, since Jesus is addressing humans in John 10 the same would be humans are being addressed in Psalm 82, not a bunch of super angels of a divine council. Heiser has manipulated so many minds and has triggered the mind to think this "divine council" is non human. Jesus clearly gives us the answer the divine council is human.
The phrase and title given "you are gods" is a legalistic title of Authority because the Jews were given the Law and as well as judge with the law. The Jews were given the Law and 10 commandments to govern them and council them, so it is imposible for this to be nonhuman spirit beings or angels. The Jews also had the True Prophets of God. God also established covenants with Humans, not nonhuman spirit beings or angels.
😀😃🙂
Not sure where Heiser thinks in Psalm 82 that this is about angels, spiritual beings or even sons of God. Heiser opposes what Jesus says in John 10, Heiser is "anti-Christ" in his view of Psalm 82.
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Psalm 82:1 God has taken his place in the divine council;
in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:
2 “How long will you judge unjustly
and show partiality to the wicked?
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Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
7 But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes
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The divine council In Psalms 82:1 is also referred to as the congregation of the mighty or the great assembly. They gather together to hear judgement, because in verse 2 this divine council judging unjustly and showing partiality to the wicked. Have to remember this divine council is given the "law". Spiritual beings or angles were not given the law. The "law" was given to the Nation of Israel. Moses is the author of the "law", but God instructed Moses what to write down in the "law". Started with the 10 commandments on Mount Sinai. God also instructed Moses all these laws, decrees, Levitical priesthood, the garments, all the kinds of offerings, and ect... Basically this is the books of Leviticus, Exodus and Deuteronomy.
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Psalm 82: 6-7
I said, “You are gods,
And all of you are children of the Most High.
"But you shall die like men,
And fall like one of the princes.”
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Psalm Verse 6 mentions "You are gods," This is verse is Paralleling verse 1 "in the midst of the gods he holds judgment:" The gods in both verses 1 and 6 are "gods" or "elohim" are the magistrates, judges, and other people who hold positions of authority and rule within the nation of Israel. Why is because these authoritative officials of Israel has the Law to Judge.
When verse 7 says you shall die like men, the verse literally means men. I suggest googling the word "Israel". Israel is a Hebrew name....names have meanings in the Bible. If you look up Israel and the Hebrew meaning of the name you will find Israel means "Prince of God"
Israel was made up of 12 tribes meaning that Israel would be "Princes", that is how you get the plurality in verse 7.
Israel had the Law of God to Judge, not angelic spiritual beings. The Lord God spoke to Israel through prophets.
In Psalm 82:1 and Psalm 82:6 the "gods" or "elohim" are the magistrates, judges, and other people who hold positions of authority and rule within the nation of Israel. These people were judges (leaders or rulers) whose tasks were divinely appointed (Ex. 22:8 & 9). Hence forth "divine council". So this congregation of the mighty, great assembly, or divine council is now being questioned in Psalm 82:2 by God Himself, who is the Supreme Judge over the nation of Israel and these magistrates, judges or gods (elohim).
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Also in Psalm 82 when God takes his place in the divine council (congregation of the mighty or the great assembly) is with a prophet. Can not forget Asaph. Asaph wrote Psalm 50 and 73-83 are called the “Psalm of Asaph”
Asaph a “seer” or prophet. The word of the Lord would come to prophets in the Old Testament and God would speak through the prophet. So God would speak through Asaph in Psalms 82:2. A question is asked in Psalm 82:2" “How long will you judge unjustly and show partiality to the wicked? This is basically God's divine words spoken through Asaph the prophet.
The word “gods” or "elohim" in Psalm 82:6 also refers to magistrates, judges, and other people who hold positions of authority and rule within the nation of Israel. These verses are about certain individuals within the nation of Israel who have authority like judges (gods or elohim), because Israel had the law to Judge. Since the nation of Israel was given the law, it gave certain individuals within the nation of Israel the right to judge using God's law.
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God instructing Moses certain men in Israel to be Judges and Elders ("gods" or "elohim). This is in the Law from God. A Divine Council, Congregation of the Mighty or the Great Assembly
Exodus 18 25-26
And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the
people: rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers
of tens. 26 So they judged the people at all times; the hard
cases they brought to Moses, but they judged every small case themselves.
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In Exodus 22:8 & 9 here is where a person can find how the role of these Judges ("gods" or "elohim).
Exodus 22: “8 If the thief is not found, then the master of the house shall be brought to the JUDGES to see whether he has put his hand into his neighbor’s goods.
9 “For any kind of trespass, whether it concerns an ox, a donkey, a sheep, or clothing, or for any kind of lost thing which another claims to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the JUDGES; and whomever the JUDGES condemn shall pay double to his neighbor.”
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Another major point is in John 1:14 " The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
God would speak the "Word" through a prophet like Asaph in Pslam 82, in the NT the "Word" was spoken by God incarnate (flesh) by Jesus in John 10.
Jesus actually quoted Psalm 82 "You are gods”’John 10 34-38
Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.”
Jesus tells us in the New Testament when He uses and quotes from Psalm 82 that “You are gods” refers to certain individuals within nation of Israel as gods or to say judges . Jesus also reminds us that Israel had the law and the law represents God.
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Also in John 10 34-38 Jesus is claiming to be equal and is God when He said....'I said "You are gods". The “I said” statement is really no different then an “ I am” statement.
Jesus is repeating and echoing the words what God the "Father" spoke through Asaph the Prophet in Psalm 82 and is repeated again in by the "Son" who is Jesus (God) in John 10, "I said, "you are gods"". Another point Jesus is having a conversation with the Pharisees (Jews), so basically Jesus is calling the Pharisees "gods" when He said "You are gods". Simply put Jesus answers the question about the "gods" in Psalm 82. Jesus in John 10 is calling the Pharisees "gods". The Pharisees are "gods" because they have the Law of God to judge, rule and govern the nation of Israel, no different then the "gods" in Psalm 82 that these Elders or Jewish Officials within the nation of Israel have the Law judge, rule and govern with the Law of God. The view of divine council as spiritual beings is "Anti-Christ", Because it fails to recognize that Jesus gives the answer and opposes the answer from Jesus in John 10.
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In Summary
The phrase “You are gods” is more of a legalistic title like a judge for the nation of Israel and since there were many judges in the nation of Israel at the same time like in Psalm 82 there would be a divine council, congregation of the mighty or great assembly. God spoke to these individuals through the prophet Asaph and in John John 10 34-38 that these "gods" or elohim are judges that have the "law" of God.
The same is today in America and a court of law with a judge and even the jury who decides the outcome of the party involved. The judge or jury would be like a god or gods. Another good example is the Supreme Court (gods) of the United States.
So to use Psalm 82:1,2,6 and 7 as “gods” referring to angels or spiritual beings is TOTALLY false.
The only spiritual presence is the words that Asaph spoke that came from God in Psalms 82. Heiser is in error he replaces the Jewish leaders or judges (gods) in positions of authority with spiritual beings. He also misuses the meaning of this "divine council" into a spiritual beings. Heiser has to remember who was given the law to judge by the law, Jesus confirms that. Heiser also seems to push Jesus aside when He quotes Psalm 82 in John 10. Heiser IGNORES Jesus's "I said" statement, "you are gods" to the Pharisees. Both in Psalm 82 and John 10 are Jewish elders and certain individuals within the Nation of Israel because they govern, rule and judge with and by the Law of God. The view of this divine council as spiritual beings is "Anti-Christ".
A person really doesn't need to hear a lecture for about 50 minutes expalining away the humans which are Israel in Psalm 82, to try to sell a FALSE view of Psalm 82.
Good thing Heiser isn't living anymore, now he can't write anymore books on his version of the spiritual world, he was clueless about the Bible and spiritual matters, he mislead and deceived many.
A person has to "Pair up" the I said, you are gods, in both Psalm 82 (Father) and John 10 (Son), that is why Jesus say I and the Father are ONE in John 10:30 , Since Jesus is addressing Humans in John 10, that means Humans are being addressed in Psalm 82, the Humans are Israel (Jacobs decendents).
The CORRECT Explanation!
Jesus holds the answer and explains of the "gods/elohim" of Psalm 82 in John 10.
Reason why Jesus fulfills the words of the prophets in the OT in the NT. Jesus fullfills the words of the OT in the NT. Depends if a person beleives in the Trinity.
Israel are the "gods" in Psalm 82, the "gods" are human NOT nonhuman like this Heiser guy promoted.
Israel was unique from the pagan nations that surrounded them, Israel had the law of God, 10 commandment, prophets and a Levitical priesthood. Since Israel had the law of God, it put Israel in the position of being "gods," becuase God chose them, Israel was God's chosen people.
Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;
John 10: 34-35 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),"
1. >>>>"I said, “You are gods” >>>>>ONCE by the God (Father) in Psalm 82. Aspaph is the Author and Psalmist of Psalm 82. Prophets of the Old Testament like Asaph the "word of the Lord" would come to Prophets like Asaph. Prophets were the "Voice" of God. God (Father) would communicate His words through the prophets, God does that here in Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, sons of the Most High, all of you;">>>>>>>>Israel, Psalm 82 uses the word "all". This clearly is not about a bunch of watchers/super angels of a divine council. The Psalms were written to and for Israel.
2. SECOND time Jesus in John 10: 34 Repeats >>>> ‘I said, “You are gods”