This VW Oil Pump Suck's
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 19 июн 2020
- To Help New subscribers I have to start this video with a brief backstory. The last time I had this engine in my car the oil light would not go off at start up. (eventually it did)
This Covid lockdown has forced me to tackle some overdue VW maint on my engines. I'm sharing what I learn and explaining my solutions. I'm sharing contributions from viewer comments that I think are helpful. Thanks to everyone in the VW community. I wonder how many engine builders are going to be trying to remember how there oil pump fit in there last engine build. Mind you that this engine was built over 20+ years ago. It ran awesome. The insides look great because after that oil pump incident I took it out of service to check it out. It too has been waiting patiently in the back of my garage. When you have problems ignoring them is not going make them go away. It's a lot of work to go inside but it's worth it. IMHO The problem was staring me in the face as I took it apart but I didn't notice it until the next day...... I hope you enjoy and learn just as a learn new things all the time. It's the attention to details that make the difference..... 
Авто/Мото
Every AS-41 Brazilian case I've built has had that sleeve on the suction side.
As far as oil pumps I've always used Melling without issues.
For oil filter I use K&N VW 1.9 AAZ Diesel filter. They are big and filter well.
But as everything VW we all use what works for us. Thanks for the video.
Thank You Jonathan! This is why I have this channel. So we in the VW community can share our knowledge and experience. As you say we all have our preferences but it's good to be informed about options. Please continue to come back and share often.
Great info! I love watching and picking lots of new knowledge. Thank you and keep them coming!
Thanks, will do!
Another really helpful video EZGZ ... I'm going to check my pump tomorrow!
We're similar ages, and I love your detailed analyses of your problems to help you decide on a way forward. As you said at the end of your video .... "always learnin', always learnin!" .... It's great to keep the grey matter from rustin' up, so keep 'em comin'!! :)
Glad to help. I am getting a lot more Gray in my matter. hehe
I blame the case,not the oil pump. Just my .02. Great info. 👍
Thanks 👍 No doubt about it in my mind ether
I thank you for explaining everything and allowing us to share in your knowledge as it helps us understand and learn everything a great deal more .
Glad it was helpful!
Ya sure, oldest date trick ever,honey we are broke down,what are we gonna do?20 minutes later,car starts,majicaly,ha ha,great fun thanks EZ
Mosquito bites in the weirdest place's afterwards. hehehe
Very interesting discussion. Thanks for the details!
Glad you enjoyed it!
I love hearing the sound of a Steel straight cut cam gear. Most of my motors I build has the steel on steel gears in them..Glad to hear you are gonna to use the 26mm Aluminium pump with no oil ring..Love the videos, very helpful.Thanks again..
I had the straight cut magnum steel on aluminum for years on my 1776 with double springs. You could hear them on cold start but not after things warmed up. I still have them. They are full with compared to the steel. Both the crank gears are cast steel by the way.
Love the videos. They are very helpful and edgucational.Thanks again..😁🤟
Man, after watching the last several videos many of us subscribers will soon have our PhD in VW air-cooled engines. Lots of great nitty gritty stuff. Have a good week end.
Thanks Tim! You do the same. Happy Fathers day....
I know those after market cases are not cheep, that’s a shame they put that sleeve into it. I saw that distorted O ring in the previous video, I think you are right on with not putting that Oring pump back in. Happy Father’s Day to ya, thanks for the great videos.
I appreciate the support, Happy Fathers day to you as well.
great learning video i agree that o ring was your pressure loss thumbs up shared first notice i gotton in a long time had to re ring your bell
Have a Virtual Burrito my friend. Thanks for the support.
Thanks for the video Greg/Ez. There is supposed to be a tight interference fit between the oil pump body and the case, and it almost seems like those o-ring pumps would have a looser tolerance in order for the o-ring not to grab and get pulled off when installing the pump. If they don't then the o-ring would/could distort slightly and move into the path of the suction hole, which may be what happened here. I'm with you on buying and using the standard aluminum (non-o-ring) pump. I may have more comments but will continue watching the vid now.
Thanks Ted. I appreciate you taking the time.
Hey man Kevin here from Australia. Wow I've never seen a sleeve in that spot before I'd chalk that one up to shit happens and move on to the next problem.
Anyhoo stay safe and stay well.
✌ Peace man.
I'm with ya Kevin
Hi Greg, i recently completed my 2332 with an identical AS41 case baught from CB about 18 years back, it also had the sleave on the suction side and it also intrigued me. By the way i’m also using the 26mm GB pump. Exactly the same fit as your motor, very tight on the oring side, was very scared of damaging the oring on the suction Hole if i assemble it in the traditional sequence, so i decided to lay my pump in place before closing halves and installing the pump studs afterwards....its held up thus far. Love your vids, i am a massive fan sir!
Good to know I didn't get the only case with hemorrhoids. Great idea to remove the studs. I might put some preparation H on it during install. Thanks and have your self a virtual Burrito my friend
That o ring was sitting over the hole,thats for sure,i would fit as you say, a non o ring oil pump.great source of info EZGZ,Thank you.
Thanks 👍
Nice nuggets of information there
Glad you think so!
You can get a new rubber o'ring from Mr Berg GB 231- 0 install that and your paper thin gasket on your pump and set into your engine case half. Remove the oil pump studs from the other engine case half and when you drop it all together finesse that paper thin gasket into place and you just may end up with proper oil pressure. I have an as21 nos case that has those very same inserts in the oil pump case halves. Why are the there? What's their purpose? I enjoy your channel and appreciate all your busted knuckle wisdom, Thanks.
I think there tooling was off or sometimes you here them talk about the mold shifting????? Thanks for the part #
Great video EZGZ. In regards to line bore. The factory reconditioned vw engines were line bored. But factory usee a much better quality line borer than the hand held job people are using these days. Not attention to alignment with those hand held line borers IMHO.
Thanks for sharing
This comment reminded me of my struggle finding any machine shop that still had a true line bore machine. I was building a honda engine and couldn't for the life of me find anyone that still had a line bore machine and not just a honing machine. I probably should've tried calling up some vw performance shops. My dad raced type 1's and would get his engine line bored every rebuild just to make sure everything was clearanced perfectly (he would go so far as to hand polish his cranks and bearings into clearance in our garage, seized two engines from knowingly putting in thrust bearings that he knew were on the tighter end of what he likes but didn't want to polish them out cause they were almost close enough. Ruined a crank and damaged a block when people at the track tried bumping the engine over by pushing it and gouged out the thrust bearing dowel's holes, the other time it happened during cam break in at sitting in the drive way Didn't do any damage besides needing a quick polish on the crank and a new thrust bearing.). He never had the main's or cams bored to a larger size, just kept having his machine guy bore it to spec just to make sure it was still within tolerance. It really sucks that I couldn't find someone to do a line bore because it meant I couldn't modify my engine to use a GSR girdle and arp studs while keeping my B18 engine within spec. Everything I read about how people deal with the main bores on honda engine is they end up honing it and shifting the crank upwards into the block a bit but with me wanting to swap to main caps from a totally different engine meant a line bore would be the only way to get it back within spec. Should still have all the parts so maybe next time I build the engine I'll try harder to find a shop that can line bore it properly.
there used to be high quality cam bearings that had the copper showing when new. Also the berg pumps have a hard anodized coating which brings the interference fit back into tolerance as the new shadek pumps are loose in the case (which is the reason berg came up with the o ring pumps to begin with).
Makes sense. Berg stuff was ether as good as factory or a bit better. That's probably why I bought it in the first place. I don't think it was the pumps fault. But ounce the o-ring let go it allowed a place for the air to get in easier. I just can't remember the fine details from when I built it.
Hi EZ i was once advised to put o rings on my oil pump because the oil pump was about .12 mm too small where it goes into the case . I was not happy with the idea so i took a different route to solve the problem . With the o ring installed in the pump the studs should be removed in order to install the pump before the cases are put together . If you install the pump after the cases were put together the o ring will get damaged by the sharp edge of the oil port in the case and cause the o ring to leak . I think if you install a Shadeck pump without the o ring you might still be able to use the cases . It is also a good thing to put the cases together and measure the hole where the pump goes and then mike up the pump spigot as well just to see if there is not too much clearance between the two surfaces . It might also be good to check where the oil level is to see if the suction port is above the oil level or below it .Below it , it wont suck air but above it definately will . If you can find a pump with a tight fit you will definately be able to re use those cases . I could not find one aftermarket pump exept the Shadeck that fitted properly . I never had the need to put a filtering system on the engines i worked on because they were mostly waterboxers which came with an oilfilter as stock . The pumps however are interchangeable with the type 1 engine . About the gears i read about a mod that Gene Berg made to make the cam easier to turn by machining two grooves in the cam gear to have less oil between the gears but still receive enough lubrication . Thank you for sharing your knowledge , experience and especially your enthusiasm . It really is contagous .
Great info! Thanks. Since I already have all the high dollar stroker parts I do believe it's better to just get a different case for the peace of mind. I want to build out this 2110 for a road car. I'll save this case for a less expensive project. It would be great for a 1776 since the case is cut for 90.5
I learn so much from you! I had a 56 oval when I was in high school, but now I’m fixing up a 65 turbo Corvair. That said, it uses Viton o-rings to seal off the oil section from the cold side and they eventually fail in catastrophic fashion. I am looking into upgrading to Kalrez o-rings because they can handle temps up to 600 degrees. They are way more expensive that Viton, but I think it’ll be a wash when one considers the extra longevity and efficiency they will add to what is ostensibly a very primitive turbo. What do you think?
Kalrez - Huh never heard of it. I'll have to check it out. Thanks so much for sharing. I'm sure folks who read the comments will also pick up on your tip. You win a free Virtual Burrito my friend.
You did a great job of diagnosing that problem and your spot on, the ripped O-ring and groove caused your problem. I have had to back cut many pumps over the years to get the pump to sit back over the pick up hole. This problem only happens on the VW Brazilian cases, the German cases don't have this issue, the alignment is better. This is a bigger problem with the 30mm pumps, set that sucker in there, I'll bet it doesn't cover the hole.
I do see another concern, hard to tell but it looks like the pick up tube extension is clamped on and the bottom of the tube is cut square. Nothing wrong with the clamp in my opinion, but I've seen the tube hit the oil screen and starve the pump for oil. A slight V-cut in the bottom of the tube prevents this problem from happening.
Absolutley to each their own thereof course, but I do not believe in those oil sumps. Being an old desert racer and engine builder I prefer the windage tray to control the oil. Even in short course racing with extreme RPM and hard turns the windage tray works amazing and no sump. Key is nothing bigger than a 26mm pump so you don't suck the crankcase dry and put all the oil in the heads. Also a big believer in the windage push rod tubes as well.
Build on, always fun to see what your building and what challenges others are dealing with where building these engines is concerned.
If I could mail you a Burrito from CA I would!
I leave the bottom of my dip tube square because I have a aluminum attachment with legs on the bottom that rests on the floor at the oil drain cover. It has double 0-rings around the tube. Works great. I used to use windage tubes and all that. The windage tray developed a stress crack after time. I finally decided to just go dry sump with a CB performance 4 gear pump. Also switched to center mount fan shroud. Ran the hoses up between the carbs an fan shroud. Neat, Simple, ran cool. Had my oil filter then oil cooler then to the 6 quart oil tank made from an 8 inch aluminum fuel tank. Tied all the valve cover vents and vent to the oil tank into 1 K&N cone filter. Sounds complicated and messy but if you do it right it is clean and neat. Supposed to give a couple extra ponies. Really reduced the oil leaks. I sold the car with all that. I've collected enough stuff to do it again to my desert race car but kind of loosing interest in that since there is no place to ride close to home and most area's are closed. The good places are over used and overwhelmed by these new SxS people. Just not the same crowd or mentality of the old VW crowd.
@@TheEZGZ Ahhh yes the little CB pick up screen, got it, that makes sense. Yes dry sump is the ultimate, I've built and used many over the years but to complicated and expensive for most unless it's a race car. For many weekend warrior applications its overkill too, a good wet sump system works just fine. Cracked windage tray, now that you mention it I would always weld a central baffle to the tray to keep the oil from sloshing side to side. The baffle also reinforces the tray and adds strength, then I secure the tray to the pick up tube with safety tie wire.
Anyway all good fun stuff, keeps ya thinking.
Have fun, can't wait to see what you come up with next.
Could you do a video on oil filters and the standards for particle size entrapment? Thank you.
You get what you pay for. Shoot for the middle . It's going to be better than stock. Don't run a cheapazz air filter and change that oil every now and then. Just because you add a better filter does not mean you can go 3k miles between changes. If it's a quart low. Just change it.
Hey EZGZ, love your channel... I have a 1974 Volkswagen Thing.. I was wondering if you could make a video, installing a oil filter on 1600cc engine or where can you mount the kit at.. THANK YOU..
Mounting the filter is always a PITA. Be creative. You will find some wear and if it doesn't work out you can move it. It's pretty common to make your own bracket and use a bumper bolt inside the fender.
I have had lots of problems with aftermarket cases, basically they machine the front of the case too deep (the face area for the pump) this reduces the depth of the saddle/seat for the oil pump.
Causes oil gallery alignment issues (pump to case) and because the face has been cut too deep, allowing the pump to sit further back into the case which locates the gene berg O ring INSIDE the case!!!! You then have to do way more pump clearance and cam gear bolt clearance work. The berg O ring design was a great idea AT THE TIME on a genuine VW case............but times have changed.....Also oil gallery holes in the case do not line up with main bearings........you have to check & recheck things we never even thought of 30 years ago!!!
I overcame most of the issue's you mentioned on my aluminum case 2 liter engine a few years ago but it has proven itself over time and distance. They are always changing things. The biggest problem is that VW consumers are Cheapass and can't or won't pay for quality. They have no loyalty to suppliers who actually use the product. Many outlets are just warehouses that move parts and everyone drives a Honda.
Interesting. I'll be sure to look more carefully at my case and pump when assembling to be sure I don't have a similar issue. I don't recall my pump having that o-ring
stock engine design did not use an o ring
I really enjoy watching your show your great brother. I inherited a 67 VW Beetle from my father and have been. Building it. Do you have helped me a lot?
That is awesome!
A side note.
If you remove two studs from one side of the case you don't need to remove the oil pump to spilt the case.
The standard vw oil pump flows many more times the amount of oil and oil pressure than you need in all but a drag racer.
Steel body oil pumps (due to the thermal expansion differences between the two metals) don't seal as well as an aluminium unit (It's the reason for the O ring).
Any gaps above the level of oil in the suction section will draw air into the system and as with any hydraulic system you can forget about pressurising airyated oil.
Spring pressure, cam lift and valve train wear are a whole other thing that I disagree with a lot of guys about.
My argument has always been that you don't always need extra pressure if you lighten the valve train. Plus heavily modified standard heads and valves can flow enough to support well over 100hp with a 1600cc displacement.
The off road vehicles EZGZ runs need there power to be lower in the rev band.
If I was building a motor for this application I would give it long intake and exhaust runners (probably run a central mount 36 Dellorto) and short duration high lift cam or just higher ratio rocker arms. If I had the money I'd stroke the motor over going for bigger barrels and pistons.
Hell I'd put a supercharger on the motor to really add some oomph to the lower end.
You should make a video
Check the pump body diameter carefully.
On my WBX engine builds I noticed the aftermarket pumps (Including Shadek) run small and are loose in the case.
This was also the case with a T4 engine I recently built.
The OEM pumps, however, are an interference fit.
Unless you remove the pump studs it's not obvious the pump is loose in the case.
I now o-ring my oil pumps and have seen a 30% increase in oil pressure when the engine is hot.
Just my experience.
Thanks for sharing! Have a Burrito!
Hello put a sleeve in above the sleeve thats in and grind it a bit with the form of the big hole and fix with super strong loctide and hammer fix on the topof the oil hole that it wont move out later
Great idea
Does that cam "walk" out of the case if you rotate the crank backwards? That is the litmus test called for by the "How To Rebuild" book by Tom Wilson when checking the mesh between the cam and crank gear. If it doesn't walk out then the gear is correct and has the correct pitch.
I did check that and mentioned it in the last vid I believe. I think it was tight and clearanced itself to a Happy Spot
21.59... question. Is that cam lobe to the right of the screen cracked, or is it shaped like that to help spin the valve lifters? ( looks like there is a chip out of the right edge of it.
I love your videos and taking in as much info as I can. I really enjoy these air colled engines
Before I built this engine I sent all the rotating parts to a balance shop. When I did the build I realized the counterweight was barley touching the cam lobe so rather than screw up the balance job I ground down the side of the cam lobe. 20+ years later the cam and lifter are still working fine. The only reason I took this engine apart was to check the bearings because the oil pressure light stayed on to long on a recent run.
@@TheEZGZ oh ok. Nicely done!
Great video thanks. Do you perhaps have a video that covers the end to end width of the oil pump gear and how to tweak the gear width? I just bought a new 30mm pump but the gear hits the cam then does not sit flush with the pump casing so I suspect that i need to remove some material on the end of the gear where it sits into the cam grove? Thanks
Sounds to me like you have 72 or later 4 rivet cam oil pump. Those had a deeper connecting point. All early and high performance camshafts used the early style short shaft oil pumps. Those oil pumps were available in 22,26,30,36 MM pump widths. I would not try to modify your pump I would buy a new one that fits. If you try to just grind off the end the taper on the sides will be incorrect and you need to keep that centered or it will eat the end of the camshaft slot.
@@TheEZGZ thanks appreciate the response
thank you ezgz
:-)
hey EZ, was wondering if you could measure the depth on f that I ring groove and the width and how far from the face it’s machined in there
I wouldn't mess with an 0-ring. The stock ones worked fine but they were made out of aluminum and expanded at the same rate as the case. Stay away from the steel pumps
Could you make a sleeve for that oversized oil hole?
I don't have a lathe but I'm looking for something the correct size. I got a few idea's hmmmmm
Great call GZ. That O-ring pump and case combo just doesn't work well together at all.
Agreed. First a valve guide, now this..... $$$$ If I don't stop coughing somebody is going to end up with a lot of nice VW engine's. hehehehe I can't decide wether to go AS41 or Aluminum.
What would cause the oil & alternator light to stop working on the dash? It came back once but hasn't in the last tries 😯 (when turning the key on)
Fuse, loose connections, bad ground, worn out ignition switch, dirt bulb base, Old Age. Drive it more and hit some bumps. That works on my Baja. LOL
i think you said you used the short rods from aa i have had issues with them , big ends 2-1/2 to 3--1/2 thou, out of round ( low oil pressure) and 1 thou to big, check with bore gauge . have them resized at good machine shop. doug
Nope, CB performance H beam with ARP bolts
Hello EZGZ so would you say if the oil pressure is low hot its most the worn bearings crankshaft or camshaft ?
Best regards
Mat
Crankshaft mains and rods would be my guess. Camshaft bearings don't have to work that hard. Originally they didn't even have inserts. Due to the Boxer design the camshaft is almost held in place because each cam lobe gets spring pressure from opposite side of the case at all times. Your oil pump may even have a lot of wear but don't think adding a high volume pump is a fix.
You haven't had it that long and it's just for fun. If it isn't knocking or leaking to much oil just drive it and enjoy it and stop looking at that oil pressure gauge. I have NEVER had an oil pressure gauge that was accurate for very long. That's why I rely on a stock idiot light switch along with the pressure gauge. A engine with 100psi compression per cylinder will still be fun and last a long time even though it doesn't make as much power. It's more important if all the cylinders are within 10 psi of each other IMHO
@@TheEZGZ Tanks for your rating
And helpfull details; its a Type 4 2096 with bit higher 9.5 com. and ported heads and valves modified for flow w. 44/32 double W. and serial Camshaft for good low torque w. ignition plug in module.
And pulls good, dry.
@@TheEZGZ 914 Typ4
EZGZ is it possible the edge of the hole is sharp so it pinches the seal as it passes.
I also think the outer face of the block was skimmed to try and get the seal past the hole.
So if the sharp edge of the hole gets smoothed and face gets skimmed a bit more, maybe the seal won't get pinched
You have some good thoughts. That was a anodized Gene Berg pump just as shipped. Schadek pump but with GB love and price. The rebuilt 2110 is on a brand new case and there is an extra .020 of material. I did not have another O-ring for the pump and decided to just go with a brand new one without the o-ring groove. It seems to be working satisfactorily. Quality control is seems to be an issue with everything coming from a different place
@@TheEZGZ True. Thanks for your videos
On my 1600 I have never had an oil pressure problem. When you turn the motor off it takes several seconds for the oil light to go on. Like it holds the pressure even with engine off for several seconds.
I used to have a sending unit just like yours. LOL It's a spring and a contact. Yours just moves slower.
I had the same problem with my oil light started flickering for a bit then stayed on solid , turns out something was shorting the wire terminal behind the dash .
glad you found it
It might not be too hard to make a small short sleeve to close that gap in the suction hole? anything to give the O-ring some support there.
I have to many expensive parts in this engine to risk a mickey mouse heart surgery on the oil pump. I am getting a new case and sleep better and drive farther from home. I might take some spare parts and make it into a 1776 with a stock crankshaft.
@@TheEZGZ i guess i just look at it different. You identified the problem and luckily its easily and cheaply repairable. Sure you can buy another case and start all over turn this case into something else with the same problem only less expensive parts if it grenades..... also you may get into another expensive case with some other defect?
Had to look it up, with the case halves together, the bore should be 2.756"-2.757", and the pump body should be 2.757", or an interference fit of 0.000"-0.001".
Thanks you sir!
It's a lot easier when working on these engines to work in metric. I know it can be a pain but when you are talking about sealing and bearing surfaces it matters
Nothing causes so much stress as a flickering oil pressure light.
yeah, for sure
at what point would I have to get a better oil pump? I'm building a 150horsepower turbo 1835 and am looking for an expert opinion
I don't think horsepower or Turbo determines that. I think it more about how much RPM your turning and how loosely you built your engine. Big horse power engines that live a reasonable time are built on the loose side. Just like having a wider ring gap on your turbo. HP = Heat and everything needs room to grow. If you have a nice tight engine the 26mm will work fine. If your pulling a lot of oil off for your turbo than you might want to go 30mm If you don't use a relief style pump cover on that 30mm you will be adding stress to your oil coiler, filter and your factory VW relief vlaves won't work right. If it were me I would start with the 26mm and see how it goes. You will find with that turbo it's a lot easier on your engine and you won't have to rev it up as high. Why on earth would anyone want to turbo a thin wall 1835 is beyond me. Trade those pistons and liner's for 90.5 1776 will live longer. Add another pound of Boost.
Hope you get lot's of smiles and miles with your new toy.
@@TheEZGZ it is a thick wall 1835 with all forged internals,ported and large valve dual spring heads, head studs, and an Engle 110 cam. And it is turning 6000rpm
Hey Greg, it’s me again . Do you think a distributor gear puller would work to get that sleeve out. Maybe make a longer one to match up with the case, so the Oring won’t get sucked in again. (Just a thought )
First thing I reached for was the oil relief piston remover and the distributor drive puller hehehe both to small. Today I tried a 5/16 tap but although it would bite on the tapered end I think it was spreading out. I also tried a little heat from my butane torch to hopefull expand things. I'm done with it for now. It worked for a long time before the o ring fell apart. It will work with a new pump. But I'm not going to risk that stroker crank and rods. I'll make a 1776 out of it instead.
Fram Filters are crap!
True but it is much better than the stock screen
Sucks, not suck's.
If how to keep your vw alive is the vw bible you must be a vw prophet
No, Just a prehistoric throwback. LOL
In over 40 years of building these engines I've never used an o-ring pump like that. Don't understand the need for it. Looks poorly engineered.
It's mostly a band-aid for a poorly fitting pump
This is evidence that if you have one of these pumps you have to replace it at some point. Like I said. It ran for many years before it gave up.