Defending My Views on the Canon and Icons
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- Опубликовано: 9 июл 2024
- In this video I respond to Suan Sonna on icons and Trent Horn on the canon of Scripture, two key issues in Roman Catholic and Protestant dialogue.
Read Cyril of Jerusalem on the canon here: www.newadvent.org/fathers/310...
Truth Unites is a mixture of apologetics and theology, with an irenic focus.
Gavin Ortlund (PhD, Fuller Theological Seminary) serves as senior pastor of First Baptist Church of Ojai.
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00:00 - Rebuttals of Gavin
09:03 - Trent Horn on the Canon
15:10 - Suan Sonna on Icons
26:40 - Final Thoughts
I think you get a lot of Catholic responses because:
1) You are very charitable
2) You engage with church history in a way that is meaningful
3) Your arguments are high level
@Phlebas I think you are referring to Rad-Trad types who have hints of sedevacantist doctrine.
As a Catholic. I agree. I enjoy gavin's work as its very considered. I hope he keeps it up. God bless him
Looks like there's a massive misunderstanding of how doctrinal development works in these replies. Its a tree growing from a seed, not being uprooted. The dogmas of the faith will not change.
@Phlebas I agree, which is why I don't agree with the development of doctrine that can not be examined in scripture. If you want me to believe in X but can't show X in scripture, then at the very least, I am going to say I don't know. The I don't know answer for many is seen as weakness especially when talking to Athesists. But I don't know is a perfectly acceptable answer, especially if it is difficult.
@Daniel Haas Thats just Sola/Solo Scriptura which is itself a (heretical) "development"
I’m a recent convert to Christianity and have really enjoyed your videos. I haven’t been confident in a denomination, but am leaning Protestant after listening to your arguments.
May the Lord bless you and direct you in your walk with Him!
What made you convert?
@@colepriceguitar1153it was a combination of factors that led to the conversion. For the last five years I’ve read every scholarly work that I could find, by both skeptics and believers. After contemplating all the evidence I came to the conclusion that Christianity is more likely true than not. I’m now reading everything I can on theology to help choose a denomination.
@@TruthUnitesthank you, God Bless as well.
Just be open to all the evidence whether Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant.
Your back and forth dialogue with Roman Catholic apologists on sola scriptura was indeed a blessing in disguise for me
As someone who grew in Catholic tradition all i heard was misinformation and caricature of sola scriptura by priests and other apologists
May God bless your works abundantly.
Ivan you better not be Croat. Or else I will have to convince you to come back to Church with my all might as a fellow Ivan.
@@snokehusk223 I know another Ivan who's also a Hrvat and a Katolik
@@cunjoz He must be a splendid man
Thanks for this, Gavin. Let me apologize for what appeared like triumphalism on my own video. I did not , at the time, intend to be that way. I actually think that even if we could prove Vatican 1 in the 1st millennium, that by itself only means that we can do for Vatican 1 what we can do for Arianism or Pelagianism, which do exist in the 1st millennium. I did not think it necessarily puts a dent in Protestantism.
On the comments of videos, I cannot agree with you more. I see terrible comments from people who lack basic Christian virtue and do not have the qualified discipline to rightly engage in these kinds of projects. It is immaturity. Pure and simple. It is akin to road rage, like when someone flips the bird at you on the road. Such a thing shows a lack of knowledge and fortitude to really handle the information.
God bless
thank you brother Erick! There is no need to apologize, you are an exemplary Christian dialoguer in the public space. Keep doing what you are doing.
It would be helpful for each of you to specify which comments that you think are untrue, unjust, or uncharitable and to provide reasons why you classify them in that way. Slapping labels like "triumphalistic" or "aggressive" without specifying what these are and why (or whether) they are universally wrong just doesn't help. I would describe St Jerome as aggressive in disposition and he was a Saint. And the interaction of the Church Fathers with heretics and heresies was always forceful in showing inconsistencies. St Augustine was a master at reductio ad absurdum refutation of his opponents. That doesn't make him uncharitable or unjust. It was in fact a sign of his charity that he attacked fallacious arguments vigorously. That made him both aggressive and a Saint. And his Retractions celebrates his victory over heresy and heretics noting that he had refuted them. That also makes him triumphalistic and (once again) a Saint.
As an additional note, the Church Fathers had a high regard for when arguments or questions that exposed problems were unanswerable. They referred to this as "being reduced to silence." Some food for thought as you ponder the argument above that there is NOTHING inherently wrong with aggression (or "triumphalism") and that aggression is the appropriate response when people are attacking the Faith.
@@AnselmInstitute this seems to be a common misconception about Saints. Saints weren’t sinless. Although they had a life pattern of fighting sin they were still sinners in the most honest and strict sense of sin and true righteousness. A perfect example would be St. Paul. As much as saints can be exemplary (helpful examples) they aren’t perfect examples for us.
Part of irenic conversations is assuming a posture of humility rather than assuming your argument has settled the debate that there is no conceivable way an opponent can hold to a contrary view rationally. It doesn’t help further the conversation. The problem is if people take your perspective and assume they are on the correct side you’ll never arrive at a solution.
@@ElvisI97 It is not sin to aggressively oppose heresy. That is my point. Many Saints and particularly doctors of the Church aggressively opposed heresy thought their lives. If this were sinful, they wouldn't be Saints. The points I made above are about what characterize these figures throughout their writings and lives. So there is no misconception here. Both figures were habitually aggressive against the heresies of heretics and this is part of the very reason the Church recognized them as Saints. They lived out the Church's works of mercy: rebuking the sinner and instructing the ignorant. Their aggressiveness against heresy was a mark of their love for God who is Truth itself.
You suggestion that humility entails intellectual tentativeness is both incoherent (why are you so sure you are correct that humility is a virtue of the intellect? Perhaps you should stop being so proud as to think you have this correct.) and out of step with Catholic moral theology wherein humility is a virtue of the will wherein we submit to both Truth and legitimate authority. As such it is arrogance to ignore arguments that show that what you believe is false.
What you and Erik have bought into is called by Popes of the 20th century indifferentism. It ultimately involves skepticism where nothing can be stated with conviction because nothing can be known. This "keeps the conversation going" to the point of being interminable and we resign ourselves to no one arriving at the truth because nothing can be known. It is for this reason that indifferentism was condemned by Popes of the 20th century.
@@AnselmInstitute “aggressively oppose heresy”. That’s where you’ve gone off the rails. You’ve assumed yourself as one of orthodox Christians (positioning yourself with the church fathers) who are fighting heretics (Protestants in your view). The same attitude can be used (and has been used) the other way - which many of us find little to no value. This is not the channel for you if you are looking for a dog fight between Christians.
I was feeling the pull toward Catholicism. I LOVE church history and they seemed to be the only Christian flavor seriously engaging with it. When I found your channel though I felt like I finally found a Baptist who could kindly & intelligently speak to my thoughts. Your videos have been an incredible grace to me in my faith!
Catholics put a great many burdens on their people, which also makes them feel like they can never measure up.
I agree, most folks don't inquire the early church...I understand it is daunting because it would be almost impossible to fully get a good view of what went on. But Gavin is doing a great first step on this.
The stereotypical view, echoed in thinkers like Newman, is that studying church history will almost infallibly cause one to stop being Protestant and convert to Catholicism. Indeed, unless one is 100% anchored in Protestantism, I can absolutely see how this would be true. For one, the Bible tells us to be of one mind and to avoid divisions, bickering over words, etc. So if you think Rome ever was the church, then right away, Scripture is telling us that if we want to break from Rome, then we better have a pretty darn strong, substantive reason. One such reason at the core of Protestant thought is the Gospel. Especially regarding Sola Fide and Forensic Justification. The impulse is to say something like Rome "preaches another Gospel" as evidenced by, eg, the Doctrine of Trent. Problem is, if you read Trent carefully, you see they stress the absolute necessity of grace, and they actually do this with much more clarity than many Armenian Protestants. There's even a sense in which Trent wholeheartedly agrees with Imputed Righteousness, especially as regards "initial justification". They also would regard the Eternal Decree (eg, where God declares us Just) to be "based on" or "issue forth" from the merits of Christ. Protestants and Catholics seem very much in agreement so far. HOWEVER, many Protestants associate this eternal decree as occupying a "definite temporal point" (eg, the moment they were convicted by the Word, slayed by the Spirit & united to Christ in faith, etc etc etc). With Catholics, the "temporal issue" is...complicated. In Catholicism, "contact" or "union" with the Almighty occurs in the sacraments, but they absolutely will not deny the power of faith and scripture...in some sense, those elements are the fuel that the sacramental heavenly rocketship runs on. Even though that's a different "motif" than typically used by Protestants, it's very very tricky to find Substantial differences from the faith-repentantce-Scripture-fuelled Catholic sacraments from the "Scripture bird flapping it's wings of faith and repentance" that Protestants emphasize. You could say the difference is that the "Protestant bird" is ultimately wrapped in Christ's "alien righteousness", whereas the rocketship ultimately depends on us totally depraved astronauts. In a sense, yes, while still "in the world's atmosphere" the bird depends wholly on the mercy and grace merited by the sacrifice of our Lord. But the rocketship's destination is the truly out of this world mists of eternity. Do we not Become the aliens when we're "up there"? Do we dare say God's eternal decree fails to accomplish what it says? Do we dare say that Heaven is a somewhat stinky landscape of "snow covered dung hills"? Does the Protestant distinction of Justification and Sanctification ultimately collapse to something equivalent to the Catholic distinction of Eternal and Temporal (in which case, we're the ones playing word games, and hence, YIKES! the heretics)? Tricky tricky tricky!
Praise God
@@wayned803 Super tricky for sure! I like Gavin’s video on Justification: Protestant vs. Catholic. I think he discusses these topics in a really encouraging and charitable way.
I'm a catholic from Poland, even here we are watching your videos and thinking about your arguments! You're right, it's so good for christianity, this globalization of information. :)
Thank you for your charity and patience and quotes from ancient christianity! Awesome work!
I feel you on the “he’s going to become Catholic” thing. I went to a Catholic law school and at least one person told me he was convinced I would convert within 5 years or something. I think some of the people who think that way are thinking along the lines of that famous quote about being steeped in history making you cease to be a Protestant.
Worked the opposite for me. The more i looked into church history, I can't see the Catholic and Orthodox arguments for all the bells and whistles. Some of them even admit the bells and whistles were added, they like that they are accretions, but at least they admit it.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 It doesn't matter if a "bell or whistle" was added, what matters is the central doctrine and belief. The beliefs of the first several centuries were distinctly Catholic/Orthodox. Gavin is an awesome teacher, no doubt, but I don't know that he'd try to tell you the early Christians were Baptist. Eucharist, baptism, submission to bishops, submission to Rome, morality, whether salvation can be lost, the list goes on and on. Early Christian theology is Catholic through and through.
@@thegoatofyoutube1787 It's really not. The early centuries, we can see it laid out in the bible how the early church would have operated as the apostles and bible writers stated. The Lord's supper was instituted by Jesus and well described in the NT. It was extremely different than the way that Catholics traditionally practice it. It was done the way Jesus showed it to the apostles at the last supper. They passed a cup of wine around, and they broke actual bread. There was no nitty gritty about crumbs, no compressed wafer and the the wine wasn't skipped, w/ only Jesus drinking it for the apostles, the way the priest does now. Baptism wasn't sprinkling, it was always full immersion. There was no submission to Rome either. Not one mention of it in scripture.
These are all traditions that evolved, as Catholicism evolved. Accretions, as Gavin calls it, you seem to call it bells and whistles. The bells and whistles, or even accretions don't really matter to me. In the spirit of echumenism, Christ as the source of our ultimate salvation is what makes us Christians.
@@saintejeannedarc9460 while I agree about common salvation in Christ, and I would never deny there are real Christians in various denominations, I’m not sure “sprinkling” or the “form of bread” are what matters to Christ. Christ only gave the bread and cup to twelve men.. are we to follow that too? The early church (1st three centuries) taught baptismal regeneration, a Eucharistic sacrifice consisting of Christ’s body and blood, and the reality of a structured church. All of these ideas are echoed all throughout the Bible; they are often strongly affirmed. When you mentioned “looking into history” I assumed you meant you read the beliefs of early Christians. Is that not the case?
@@thegoatofyoutube1787 I don't think to sprinkle or to immerse, sacraments or straight from scripture forms of serving God are deal breakers. These are extraneous issues, and our salvation ultimately comes from trust in Christ's redemptive sacrifice. So we agree on that.
I don't see much reality of a highly structured church in the early centuries after Christ, and definitely not a structure that resembled Catholicism or Orthodoxy as it evolved. That's what I find in early history and definitely what I see in scripture.
A literal sticking to only 12 disciples would not make sense, because Christ commanded them to do this often in His remembrance, and it's written in 1 Cor. to adhere to this tradition, and correction was given for doing it wrong and in the wrong spirit. As in people were overindulging in both bread and wine, and some were left w/ none. So I can see why things became more structured.
Me checking into history was comparing many documentaries on church history, using as many sources as I could find. I knew protestants were going to have their slant, so I checked Orthodox and Catholic sources too. Did a lot of reading of Catholic sources. Admittedly, not much on Orthodox, and have read excerpts of church fathers. I pretty much came to similar conclusions as Gavin, who is quite the expert in history. I am not.
Not to be unsympathetic, but I think the Catholic apologists come off as 'we must defeat him' because of the nature of their church. Their authority rests on their infallibility. If there is even one crack in their dogmas then the entire facade crumbles. In a sense they do have to crush every one of your objections.
Bingo. Catholicism is so much harder to defend which is why Catholic arguments are so much more complex.
I appreciate you Gavin. There’s not many Protestant voices that are willing to take on these historical topics. God bless you for doing so!
I’m sorry to hear about the things people have done and said to you. God bless you sir
I love how Gavin can make such convincing arguments in a concise time with sources presented.
Never feel the need to change Gavin , your ministry is a blessing and always gives me something to look at on my work-lunch break
Love your content. Just want to echo your thoughts on how looking into church history made me more firmly Protestant. Church history has been extremely valuable for enriching my faith in the veracity of the Bible and the classical protestant doctrines. Keep up the great work Dr. Ortlund!
How exactly did Church history affirm you in your believes?
@@snokehusk223 probably because he saw that it was messy and complicated and not what Roman Catholic/EO have portrayed it to be.
@@theosophicalwanderings7696 Who says it isn't messy. As everything is with huamns. But messy doesn't mean that truth can't be found out nor that there isn't a foundation. Heck. We are talking about CHURCH history here. Which means Church must exist. But in Protestantism there isn't such a Church that has existed in history.
So however messy it can be it is still there as Jesus promised.
@@snokehusk223 For one I found far less evidence for Catholicism or EO than was told I would find. Secondly I found church fathers that actually taught the things I as a Protestant believe.
@@joneill3dg Do you believe in Apostolic Succession, real presence in Eucharist, One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, sacramnets?
What do you believe that Church fathers believed and Catholic or Eastern Orthodox don't?
I think the fact that you pointed out that icon veneration denial leads to anathema based on the council you cited made people realize that they had to take a hard stance on the issue if they accept the councils anathema, and i dont think most catholics expected that it would be an anathema to not bow down and show affection for icons (seems to me that orthodox would expect it and welcome the anathema more than catholics that i know). I dont think most Catholics want to condemn someone for going against the council on this matter, nevertheless, its there and authoritative and you have to water things down so incredibly much to make the anathema a tertiary issue type of thing.
The funny thing is that Jimmy Akin *mocked* Gavin for being so concerned about icons, and called it a tertiary issue.
I think it *should* be a tertiary issue, but unfortunately, the Catholic Church caused this to be primary by anathematizing anyone who disagrees.
Which is ironic, because the church fathers unanimously disagreed with iconography.
As someone that was born a Roman Catholic I can tell you what you mentioned is the exact spirit I encountered: “We need to beat Protestants. We need to find the way to prove the church is right”.
Catholic apologists will retort to any contrived explanation because admitting their church is wrong is not an option. Infallibility of the RCC is the only game in town for all these guys.
Again, continue to expound the truth Dr Gavin. This kind of videos from a serious Protestant scholar are sooooo important and are backed up by the Spirit to bless the souls!
“Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. “
As an assistant pastor in Virginia, thank you for your work! I have recommended this Chanel and will continue to do so. God bless you sir!
Gavin, I am so grateful to God for servants like you in the body of Christ.
You're fondly appreciated and your work here in Truth Unites is encouraging for many of us. Know that your videos are being watched and listened to from the opposite side of the continent. Here, from Buenos Aires, Argentina.
Tradition is fine unless it blatantly contradicts scripture.
Just because the fathers may quote the deuterocannon does not make them scripture. It’s like a pastor quoting C.S. Lewis in a sermon…doesn’t make him scripture.
Catholic here. I really admire you being in the public square. I know it can't be easy and I personally don't know if I could handle all the pressure. I think so many of us want to know the truth. We want to put our finger on the truth. And we have this desire because we worship and were made for the God of truth. Some of us may too vigorously go after those we disagree with because it feels like so much is at stake. Because nothing less than the truth will do. But I truly believe we all are sharpening one another. God allows our disagreements for a reason, and I hope and pray he continues blessing all of our efforts to seek Him and His truth more and more.
May God bless you.
Baptist here. Glad that you're here! I'm still learning much of church history. I'm much stronger in practical Christianity.
Catholic here who used to be Baptist. Studied church history, and St JH Newman's prophecy unfolded, so to speak. I do absolutely admire Dr Ortlund for making this RUclips channel. I'm curious to see if his journey and eventual conversion will have all the same gut wrenching lows and ecstatic highs mine did, and what effect his much more extensive theological training than mine will have on his conversion time... How many rounds will our dear heroic Dr Gavin last in the ring with these Catholic heavyweight powerhouses?
@@wayned803 😂
@@ClauGutierrezY Well brother wayne, keep hanging around, maybe you might get born again. (;-D
@@wayned803 I grew up under communism. From conversations with sect of catholicism, it's almost like communism. Believe me or else, believe me or you get kicked out, belive me or you are the black sheep. So if he becomes Catholic? What does it prove? It's ridiculous
The reason whenever RC speaks of a doctrine, a Protestant is allowed to accept or reject it consequence free
But an RC must accept the doctrine or else he loses his good standing as a catholic and possibly his salvation…
You're more likely to be saved if you reject most RCC doctrines.
As a Catholic, I find your videos that teach and explain classical Christian doctrines like divine simplicity invaluable. My attempts to learn about these deeper doctrines from Catholic sources have been difficult. So thank you very much for that. I would love to see more such videos from you.
Then you haven’t look in the appropriate sources because there is plenty.
I'm just grateful for your presence here, Dr. Ortlund.
I enjoy your shorter videos. No way I'm watching a 4 hour video on icons 😄
4 1/2 hr video just to confirm Dr Ortlund’s view on icons.
@@sonya6491 These long videos are commonplace between Catholics and Orthodox, this is a sign that Dr. Ortlund is a rare find among Protestant apologists and worth engaging with substantively.
I for one am actually glad that you put out your "23 minute videos", Mr Ortlund. I think the short, concise arguments you make are a lot more persuasive and thought provoking than the multi-hour rebuttals people often put out against them because it allows your audience to actually engage with what you're saying. I don't at all mean to insult the character of those rebutting you, but it often seems like the quantity and length of their videos is meant to be intimidating, as if to say "by the weight of our collective runtime we must be right".
I appreciate that you carefully consider what to say and refrain from rambling on and on for hours to try to bolster your position through sheer volume of words. I think if you did that most people would be bored and forced to conclude at the end of it all that, like many of these other lengthy videos, you could have said what you did far more memorably and understandably in less than half the time.
I know I don’t have time to listen to 4-1/2 hour videos! 23 minutes is about the length of most people’s attention span…the same as most non-denom/evangelical sermons! 😂
4h doesn’t necessarily mean better especially if a lot of it is fluff or takes too long of a logic
I agree that it does seem like a scare tactic: "Look at how many of us there are, and we've got 2+hrs each, so therefore they must be full of good arguments." As for me, I don't have time to watch a 2+hr video Trent Horn puts out every time Gavin puts out a 20 minute video. You can eat lunch while watching Gavin's videos, but you need to invest your entire evening to watch one of his critic's videos.
I strongly disagree, would you watch a Netflix show for 4 hours? Then I think it's only fair to watch something as important as the tenets of our faith for that period of time, I watched it over a day and a half span, definitely worth the time, and it isn't meant to intimidate, these are complex topics with lots of history behind them, and it's regarding our faith, so I think they're at least as important as a football game, just my thoughts, God bless ❤🙏🏽
@@SP-td9xj I get that, and I agree that these issues are very important and well worth the time to dig into - I just think that a lot of these people who are making these really long videos could tighten up their scripts and make more focused, concise videos that would be more effective at getting their points across.
Gavin, my family, friends and I would be tremendously blessed if you could devote more time and effort to Truth Unites. My wife and I will be supporting this vision of yours with prayer. God bless you, brother.
thanks! More to come on that front soon...
7:26 You have definitely encouraged my faith Gavin. I thank God for your content ✝️
Definitely there’s an aggression, I can understand your frustration but I pray you are able to withstand it because you’re a strong and clear voice from the Protestant side! Especially when so many of the practices and claims from the other side are dubious
Excuse me brother! I’ve been watching your videos lately and I have to tell you, you’ve been a wonderful resource for me in my walk with Christ. I only came into the faith a few months ago when our Lord Jesus rescued me out of 12 years of heavy drug addiction.
You’ve been a particular help in fleshing out some deeper rooted questions regarding the faith, particularly your arguments against the Papacy and Catholic dogma, as I was a Catholic convert myself (converted at 17, I’m now 29 and left the church only a few weeks after coming to Christ. I firmly believe he led me into the reformed church for a reason). I’d had some serious questions regarding my decision to leave, as I strangely felt pangs of guilt for doing so, as I’d always heard that the Catholic Church is the “one true church”. I now know that nothing could be further from the Truth, and while I do believe there are Catholics who are genuinely saved true believers, I am personally of the mind that the papacy will be the future seat of Antichrist. Although I desperately hope I’m wrong on that.
Anyhow, thank you so much, brother Gavin. I just wanted to say that I love you and I’ll be keeping you close in prayer during these trying times. Maranatha! And God bless you and your family!
PS: I am a lifelong Tolkien enthusiast and I REALLY loved your video on the impact of Satans fall in nature! I truly would love to talk to you sometime, about the faith and anything pertaining to it, up to and including genius fantasy authors who distilled complex theology into the greatest work of fiction ever written. Once again, may our Lord Jesus keep you always!
Gavin, I just want to reiterate once again the importance of your work.
Youre getting a lot of response videos BECAUSE your work is so good, and I believe it is exposing real problems within their tradition - hopefully it will one day be reformed.
God bless you, Dr. Ortlund. Don't be discouraged by all of the responses! I think it's actually a compliment lol
You'll find these long, drawn-out videos to be common in the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. It's a good sign that Gavin is moving the ball forward, which is rare among RUclips Protestant critics of the Catholic Church. He's really one of the few places for Catholic apologists to engage substantively with Protestants.
Amen
You are a great asset to Protestant apologetics, thank you for all of your great work. I'd like to support your efforts.
1) The struck dog is the one that howls.
Most of your points are well made. Roman apologists have almost universally painted themselves into the "My Church is the One True Church" corner, from where any accurate criticism is an undermining of the whole. Consequently, there is a general flip-out among them when an accurate criticism is made and its "all hands on deck" to do whatever can be done to discount the point or the source.
2) Rejoice when you are persecuted... FOR DOING GOOD. :)
Easy to say. Hard to do.
"Be strong and courageous."
Comparing people with dogs isn't cheritable I would say.
@@snokehusk223, why are you howling? ;)
But seriously, no one was compared to a dog. "The struck dog howls" is a common idiom with equivalents in many languages. Perhaps you were unfamiliar with it.
@@philoalethia No I acknowledge it is an idiom. But to use it in this sense doesn't seem appropriate.
@@snokehusk223, I don't agree. It describes the situation quite accurately, irrespective of your feelings and your attempts to try to spin it as something uncharitable.
Hope you have a nice day.
@@philoalethia I don't see how you commnented that idiom without trying to show that is how Catholics act in this situation.
But ok.
You are a diamond, Gavin. Sorry to see these aggressive responses.
I heard a saying that "All anger is fear in disguise". If the critics have to respond in anger, there must be an underlying fear that they've been wrong. Also, becoming aggressively defensive means they are unstable in their beliefs.
Another saying is "Truth doesn't fear investigation", and I sure don't see why Truth would get angry at it, either. We can see the difference between Gavin and them in that regard.
I agree, reading church history and the fathers, content from your channel and others, and reading Roman Catholics, has made me a stronger more grounded Protestant than anything else. Thanks Dr. Ortlund.
Just having been raised Catholic, then becoming Protestant, and seeing the difference between the two, has made me a stronger and more grounded Protestant.
There were things about the Catholic church when I grew up in the 50s and 60s that I've always liked, but it isn't their doctrine, laws, rules, threats, etc. I think some of the things I liked back then are probably gone now, and other things have been put into place that weren't there before. I left just before Vatican II.
I have noticed the Catholics ganging up as well. I can make a comment about a hot topic that I am sure someone will find offensive, but never get a reply. However, if I leave a comment that is just complimenting someone's critique of Catholicism or defense of Protestantism, I am bound to get multiple replies from Catholics telling me how wrong I am.
I'm late life RCC convert but I don't see the need for a 4 hr rebuttal video on any of your videos. I love your teaching and right now your videos are my "go to" for great spiritual teaching.. I've read enough of "my side" that I am able to think through these issues without seeking out hours and hours of rebuttals. I think you're right about the "we have to win" mentality and it's unfortunate. My preference for your channel is that you stick to your mission of truth unites and let it speak for itself.. Believe me that is powerful enough.. Don't get pulled into rabbit holes of debate and rebuttals.. Thanks for all you do.
I think millions of Catholics walking away from the faith is the underlying issue here. That's why there's such aggressiveness against those they perceive as trying to make matters worse.
Orthodoxy too suffers the same problem here in Russia
And Rise of evangelical churches made government furious.
Catholics who leave are majority of the time nominal Catholics with no real understanding of Catholic teaching
@@annamaria9225 wait, are protestants even allowed to build churches in Russia?
@@kenaswijaya8236 There's no need for permission to build anything, look at the explosive growth of the (protestant) faith in China
A different perspective: The people leaving the catholic faith aren't ones who dive into church history and the Fathers. It is the serious protestants beginning to see problems in protestantism. The catholic responses are often by former protestants who converted to Catholicism or came back to Catholicism via studying church history and the Fathers. Mr. Ortlund is actually tapping into a high traffic protestant convert to Catholicism area on the internet. Catholic converts like myself knew scripture inside and out, but church history and the fathers were unknown and often cherry picked. (I went to an evangelical university and sat in on these classes.)
Mr Ortlund is the first serious protestant I have seen attempt these discussions in a charitable way.
You are such a kind person. I can imagine how overwhelming it is to keep track of so many responses. Thank you for your videos. I will pray for the Lord to provide rest for you!! Your videos are such a blessing! 🙏🏼❤️
Dr. Ortlund, please continue to do what you have been doing. The only feedback I may politely share is expose the truth in the early church to the best of your ability, and if you get gas lighted , it is on them!
You’re doing a GREAT job buddy. God is using you greatly
Glad I caught this video early 😁😁😁. GOD bless you Pastor Gavin for all your work.
Thank you for all the work you put into your channel, Gavin. It does make a difference, and just your striving for peace has taught me so much about these sorts of dialogues. I’m sorry for the things you get attacked with. It was a huge blessing meeting you the other week at your church, you and your family are in my prayers 🙏
awesome hanging out Jeremy, thank you for coming!
Catholic here and nodding my head vigorously to the first part of this video. Gavin has been nothing but charitable in his engagements with Catholics. I hope this calls “our side” higher. God bless Gavin!
Yes, he is charitable, which give you idolatrous catholics false hope that everything is OK. Its not OK. Eternity is a long time.
@@peterzinya1 There is no salvation outside of the Church. Peace
@@haronsmith8974 what does one get inside the church. young people committing suicide from being raped by priests.
@@peterzinya1
Being charitable doesn’t mean being unclear or folding on views that you’re convinced of. It just means not being an ass about it. I think Gavin is doing a pretty good job of it. I’ve tried to do the same in my interactions over the decades with RC folks.
I think that a major point is that we aren’t trying to reinvent or revolutionize the faith. The reformers were just doing reform - the stripping off of false teachings and doctrines to reveal the truth that lies underneath.
@@erc9468 I try to me nice when its warranted. Charity flies out the window when catholics tell me Jesus sacrifice wasnt enough to remove all sin and punishment. Jesus was beaten to death to redeem men. But that doesnt satisfy these false religion catholics. Then they tell me im going to hell because im not a Mary worshiper. Wheres the charity there? I never tell anyone they are going to hell. Anyone at anytime can get saved.
Gavin, may God bless your ministry. I thank God that He gives you strength to work hard in helping people understand His truth. I pray that God will protect your heart and mind and family and church family from every evil attack. This Truth Unites ministry is valuable.
God bless you. I'm an orthodox researching protestantism and I love your videos. Stay strong, I know trads can be mean and very defensive sometimes
Uhg, Gavin I’m sorry for the uncharitable-if not downright disgusting-responses to your work. This Catholic loves your videos and I appreciate your voice in the conversation.
Us Catholics have a lot of love for the Church and can be very quick to emotional responses to what often feel like attacks and caricatures of the Church. I don’t think many of us are used to your approach. I think we come to the table with our hackles up from our experiences with protestants discounting catholics out of Christianity altogether, or worse.
Keep it up, I love having my faith lovingly challenged. It’s a wonderful departure from “the new atheists” and the MacArthur and White’s of the world.
Love and peace to your family. God bless.
Easily my favourite channel on RUclips. Thousands of us really appreciate your work, Gavin. Please, don't feel the need to produce content often. You've given us a lot to ponder and work through. Pace yourself. We don't need you to burn out, but more importantly, your family and church don't need you to burn out.
Gospel blessings.
Brother I'm a Protestant and your videos are much appreciated🏆👊🏼🙏🏼
It's gotta be tough to stay irenic when people are acting this way. I pray that you will continue. It's a huge blessing to so many.
Actually, it can be much easier to be patient when the comments and tactics against him are that ridiculously aggressive and over the top. You have to almost laugh at how malicious and non-Christian it all is, and those people not to be taken seriously. Heck, that's bad for non-Christians, so it's laughable.
Geez! Hearing about the harassment you've experienced is disturbing. That's insanely inappropriate. I run a Catholic apologetics show where I tackle the dumbest anti-Catholic arguments, and in that show I consistently recommend that if you want better arguments, come here and listen to you. The conversation would be so much more fruitful if everyone approached it like you do.
I totally agree. As a Catholic I would almost dare to say that Gavin is probably my favorite Protestant. He is intelligent, loving, caring, informed, interesting and intelectually honest.
Man, quit promoting your channel all the time. You're like a parasite, clinging on to every big Catholic RUclipsr and trying to get people to follow your subpar channel. Actually create good content and the subscribers and views will come, Kyle.
hi kyle would you ever like to link up? God bless
Be great to see your channel tackle the dumbest anti-Protestant arguments as well. I think that would help the conversation from both sides.
Hello Kyle, ok so i looked up your site. I hope you dont mind if i visit some of your vids and give my dumb anti catholic views.
Excellent work.
Thank you for your content Gavin. I've been looking into Catholicism as a Tradition to join, because I've been very concerned with what seems to be a widespread lack of reverence for the eucharist, as well as other issues. You're one of the few protestants who doesn't settle for strawman arguments, of which I see a lot of when looking for critiques on Catholicism. You, as well as Jordan B. Cooper have thrown a serious monkey wrench into what I thought might be a done deal in me leaving my Protestant tradition, but I say that in a good way.
Thanks again, and I appreciate your thoughtful and measured responses.
Simply be Orthodox.
Gavin I am so sorry for whoever sent that picture to your church. That is such an outrageous violation. 😭
I remember seeing one particular catholic on here calling him a son of Satan and that his dad would be ashamed of him....something to that affect. Horrible stuff
@@1984SheepDog Thats not horrible, thats wonderful, for they said his master had a devil.
I love how you can get so much across while keeping the videos at a reasonable length. Don’t mind the longer content at all, but I love to see the concise and clear format you engage with.
God bless you! I would love the opportunity to support your ministry.
thank you! In a few months I will be sharing more about other opportunities to support, please stay tuned.
Praying for you Gavin. Love your content
I just wanted to comment and say that Gavin, I think you're doing an awesome job... your videos have helped me more than you know. I can't imagine how hard it must be to be pretty much the only Protestant apologist (I'm aware of) willing to do what you do and take the heat of getting ganged up on for every video you make. You're obviously making good points or they wouldn't feel such an urgent need to respond the way they do. They feel their theology is in danger of being dismantled... and yet you do it in such a gracious way. Love you brother, keep it up.
The reformed Christian,James White, he's a highly skilled apologist. Did a lot of Catholic/Protestant debates over a decade ago. He still has a channel, but I think he doesn't do debates anymore. He's not near as gentle and gracious as Gavin (but who is?), though White doesn't ever have to resort to straw manning, the man does his homework and then some.
Thank you for the link to Cyril's lecture! I was about to do a search for it when you said you were going to link it. : )
Keep up the good work Gavin, a lot of people benefit from it!
Im so sorry for all the harassment you have had. The Catholics DO seem aggressive towards you and even condescending at times. Thanks for always taking the high road 😇.
Dont feel sorry for the harassment gavin gets from idolatrous Mary worshipers. We are not immune from contempt, seeing as how they beat out Master to death. You should see the harassment i get. I count it all joy.
@@peterzinya1no one in the Catholic Church worships Mary.
@@peterzinya1and Catholics beat Jesus to death? Huh?
@@reverendcoffinsotherson5807 go back to sleep
The reason why Gavin is getting dogpiled with 3 hour long response videos every time he mentions Catholicism is because Catholics value intellectual and historical aeguments for their denomination. They are used to having an advantage on youtube in this sphere. They benefit from protestantism being perceived as an emotionally based choice for a Christian Church, while theirs they would rather see as a more thoughtful, knowledge based choice. I can't even tell you how many times I heard "all scientists and theologians and all brilliant people convert to Catholicism!" being used as an argument for their denomination to be the correct, true one. You can see how Gavin puts a dent in that with his historical, educated and intelligent approach. This is why they are after him.
Imo, Catholics perceive in Ortlund a high level of catholic-mindedness, recognize how inspirational his conversion would be, and therefore muster everything they can to try to convince him Catholicism is true. A sometimes "unhappy consequence" of Catholicism being true is that the Protest is false. And so things can sometimes appear aggressive
@matheo
Interesting comment. That honestly never occurred to me. When I studied theology (protestant) there wasn't really any separation at my university between catholics and protestants, or even eastern orthodox (one of my profs was Eastern orthodox). One catholic professor even said to me, "at a university level it's mostly the same."
And I had a similar reaction from an elderly lady when I visited catholic mass once. When I told her I was protestant, she said "but we're all Christians anyway." I sure hope one day there might be a reunion between all Christian denominations but that's probably just wishful thinking.
@@MrSeedi76 I agree with you. Personally, growing up in greater Boston, I was one of two protestant kids in my grade in elementary school through graduation. As a kid I was jealous of all the kids discussing the previous days 'ccd class' or the money they got at their communion. However as I learned theology, it seemed obvious, or rather the issues with catholicism glaring. For me protestantism isn't really a denomination in the vein of catholicism or orthodoxy, it's just those of us who cannot consciously agree with some of the tenants of those church's. I find the art aspects in particular incredibly alluring. As well as many of the ritual aspects, but I have to go with my logical mind, which is why I'm a protestant. I know I veered well off your OP, but I guess it's BC while I agree with what the older women said to you at mass, and find factionalism somewhat ridiculous.. catholicism is just also totally wrong on some crucial things haha
Definitely a ministry. I will see about how I can support it. I apologize if I’ve ever been apart of the negativity. Many of us are trying to learn from your example of humility and irenicism.
I’m not sure I could engage the longer videos, I’ve said to myself several times how awesome it is that your videos are shorter and very jam-packed, quick and seem thoughtful of other peoples time.
I'm a Roman Catholic, and I love your work.
God bless you Gavin! Thank you for all the work!
Really appreciate this channel!
For what it’s worth, I’d view the 23 minute response comment as a compliment. At least, if I said that, I’d mean it as a compliment. Brevity is good.
Gavin,
Thank you!!!! Protestant here-grateful for your work.
I will be praying the peace of Christ dwells richly in your heart and mind.
Gavin I really appreciate the work that you do. You do such a great job of presenting the best version of the Protestant argument. I thank God for your ministry.
To your point on uncharitable attacks from the opposition, I have found Michael Lofton to be particularly schismatic in some of his shorts. I’m not surprised to find that he liked a comment that isn’t charitable towards you. Keep on going, brother!
Your ministry is so critically important right now 🙏🏼
"... Increase my focus on Truth Unites"... Yea!!!! 🎉, 🎉🎉
I've been watching your videos for a while now and they are always measured, thoughtful and engaging. Like you I found my faith in a Baptist church and still attend one that my brother is a pastor at. I've never had the opportunity to dig into the history of the church like you have but I have had similar views to you for a while now. My main response most of the time when confronted with the Roman Catholic Church as the true church I just ask people to think about your worship and how you come together as a church, and can you see the Apostles worshiping in that manner. I see a lot of accretion all across the church not just the Catholic Church, but so many people get caught up in their tradition or dogma and forget to look toward the one thing we have to use as proof of our faith, and that is the Apostles and their writings, the scriptures. 22 of the books of the New Testament were written with a direct purpose of correcting error in the faith, that's why my biggest point of contention with most churches is this idea that anyone or anything can or is infallible outside of scripture. Even those who were taught directly from the Apostles were doing things wrong and had to me corrected for it. One of the most profound passages in any of Paul's letters concerning these errors is 1 Cor 1:10-17 as he admonishes people for dividing themselves over just who taught them and that they are forgetting the messenger isn't where their loyalty lies but to Christ who is the reason for our faith. All Christians are of Christ, you can't be a Christian unless you are of Christ. Membership and felty to a church does not grant you salvation, that only comes from our rebirth with our acceptance and faith in Christ.
Once again, I really appreciate your ministry. There is a significant difference between apologists who are scholars and those who are not. I find that many apologists lack depth and nuisance, and are heavy on rhetoric. The more I listen to apologists from all Christian traditions; the more selective I am becoming.
Thank you for what you do Gavin!
I like your videos because they are to the point and have a lot of info.
5:30 Wow... I knew the internet is a crazy place, but this is very disturbing to hear. 😞 Please do whatever you need to do to stay safe. 🙏
Thank you so much for all of your work, which is far more arduous than most people know and why both sides fall into misrepresentations, because to track down the details is so painstakingly difficult. But praise God more that you are able to calmly and generously work through it all while still shepherding your flock and your family. Tremendously rare gift. It has helped me work through these things when I can barely handle my 9-5 and family life without such arduous study. Glory to God. I'll pray for your flock and family.
I actually really like the response video format. It allows each side to respond point by point and give their best case. Debates in person often only gives you the best that person could give while put on the spot.
For me, I really appreciated your teaching video on icon. It answered many questions and affirmed many biblical and doctrinal affirmations and truths. Regarding, those that criticize your brevity in commenting on their rebuttals, remember Shakespeare comment to a friend via a letter about the length of his written letter.
I paraphrase, I appogize that what I said to you in my letter was not shorter. He was a master of using less words to convey a message.
God bless,
No matter what, may our Lord Jesus bless you as you defend His words in the Scripture!!! May God protect you and keep you despite the aggression!
I like to listen to all apologists on both sides. God bless you🙏
Absolutely I am right there with you. I am open minded.
Really Appreciate you being open and Honest. And Having a Heart of Christ for other Brother and Sisters in the Various Expressions of Our Faith In Following Christ our Lord. “until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God’s Son, growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ’s fullness.”
Ephesians 4:13 CSB
I appreciate these videos Gavin. 🤝
Catholic here. I am sorry to say the aggressiveness is from both sides. I thought it was actually mostly a protestant trait, because of the relentless comments of Mary-Worshippers and Cult of Dark Ages etc etc ad nauseam. However, now I am very sad to hear that some Catholics are doing the same thing!
I just began to listen and I enjoy listening because your videos help me see the more informed Protestant beliefs (not the garden variety - which, like badly catechized Catholics is just too full of misconceptions). This helps me find more middle ground with my family (all Protestants) and allows me to not attack straw men.
God bless you and I hope you realize that the majority of devout Catholics are of good faith.
Those who aren't of good faith, are not devout, and should not be taken seriously, but prayed for.
No it most definitely not a "mostly a protestant trait". Have you ever been on RCC twitter? lol Prots live rent-free in your heads.
Thank you for you ministry, Dr. Ortlund. You have helped me to understand the historical arguments for Protestantism in response to my own wrestling with Catholic arguments. Please continue your valuable work!
I continue to return to your channel for your good will spirit and love of God and His people. Thank you for caring.
That bookmark is GREAT! God bless you.
I feel that you get such rude jabs in response videos and comments because you are raising very valid points. As a newer Catholic who was only familiar with “low” churches, I was amazed at Catholic references to church fathers and even the Eucharist. Hearing a Protestant back up their views with church fathers and history is a big deal because you’re kind of challenging the thing that Catholics use as a trump card. And if you could make a more in-depth video on the Eucharist as Protestants, that would be very interesting. Catholics really do gatekeeper this and they use really strong arguments as to why. You’ve mentioned this point before but I would love to hear more. As you can see by my handle I’m very interested in collecting information 😂 thank you for all you do!
Providence college? I am student at Fuller; would’ve loved to run into you while you were here! I appreciate your work, especially as a Fuller student who is constantly wrestling between perspectives.
yeah -- was fun to drive right through Fuller's campus again!
It’s quite difficult to see how, in many ways, you are a lone voice in these matters. I’m hoping to, eventually, find some way to contribute in these conversations in a graceful and impactful way myself because I see that there is a need for strong, irenic engagement with this content from a Protestant perspective.
Thanks for your response Gavin!
Awesome video
Your views were presented in a very competent, thoughtful, insightful and sincere way. Even those who are not persuaded by them will be warned by them of the danger of superstition lurking behind icon veneration. But then again, some people make a supersticious use of the Lord's Prayer. I have no problem with icon veneration up to a point, but I will take your warnings seriously and thankfully. As Paracelsus said, the difference between medicine and poison is in the dose.
Has anyone asked to have your videos as podcasts as well? That would be helpful for some 😮
I do, check out the video description for a link. :)
23 minute response to Suan's 4.5 hour video?
Dr Ortlund: Hold my grape juice
::releases 13 minute response::
Just kidding just kidding. :) Greatful for your work Dr Ortlund!
He is a beer-drinking Baptist, as far as I know.
@@marcuswilliams7448 Catholics are the kings of gambling and drinking beer from the tap at every single festival and outdoor gathering. 😂😂😂😂
You'll find these long, drawn-out videos to be common in the Catholic-Orthodox dialogue. It's a good sign that Gavin is moving the ball forward, which is rare among RUclips Protestant critics of the Catholic Church.
@Kev Burner I see you're a reasonable person.
@Kev Burner I assume you are speaking sarcastically, but you're right. With a Protestant outlook, the believer can test each doctrine history has bequeathed us against the Word of God. From there, it is a matter of conscience as to whether the believer will adhere to what they believe to be true, regardless of its palatability, or if they will take the quick and easy path, becoming a Dark Lord of the - scratch that, becoming a believer in name only, but actually a heretic or even an apostate.
It's not a unique problem with the Protestant mindset, either. I've met many a Catholic who would reject the church's teaching on a number of critical doctrines, but still claim to be Catholic. Visible affiliation with an institution is no guarantee of rightness in the eyes of God. Thankfully, God is well equipped to see and tend His own despite our many failings.
We appreciate you and your work!! (-:
Bravo! Your in-depth and correct presentation delivers a helpful insight into this centuries old controversial subject.
To be blunt Icon veneration is a form of idolatry because it elevates icons above the Holy scriptures.
The apostle Paul always held up scripture ( the Word of God ) as the power ( dynamism ) that converts pagans to Christians.
Icon veneration ( idolatry ) does the exact opposite.
It seduces pagans into believing it has power to connect to God
Keep up the good work. Well done good and faithful servant.
Subscribed. Love you. Thanks for your mind, God has blessed you.
You can really tell how important this issue is by how many rebuttals it generates.
That being said, focus on your ministry!!! That is the foremost responsibility, and I’m sure the most rewarding one as well.
Very true. We RUclips beneficiaries need to remember that he has a congregation to tend, a family to participate in, and a life all his own as well. I'm grateful he has chosen to do this much with the time apportioned him.
Caths especially have recently gotten really apprehensive about their beliefs
I’ve been informed that RC and EO are losing adherents
@@duckymomo7935 I find it’s just the opposet.
@@Jerome616 While there's always lots of conversions among Christians going back and forth, out of RCC and Orthodoxy, to modern Christianity, and vice versa, there does seem to be a big drain out of RCC and Orthodox. Even a Russian was commenting that there are lots of protestant churches cropping up in Russia and this upsets their very govt. Now I found that all shocking, the first and last part esp.
@@Jerome616I find just the opposite of what you’re saying. We have tons of conservative Roman Catholics joining our reformed Presbyterian congregation every semester.
You are correct about some of the comments from Catholics toward Protestants. I apologize for my part in that.
Dr. Ortlund, it is your demeanor that is most convincing in all of these discussions / rebuttals / etc.
The more time I have spent in early Church history, the more I have been convinced of Sola Scriptura (as the only infallible source). Not to say I devalue Church history, but to say that anyone who claims that their church is the only church that is following the earliest traditions has no idea what he/she is talking about. Further, anyone who doesn't recognize the politics and power plays in the church councils (certainly Chalcedon, maybe earlier) isn't playing fair.
Hey man I'm Catholic and I don't think your not saved. Im sorry for Catholic people not living for Jesus...I think your amazing and I believe and hope to be with you in heaven Doctor teacher and pastor. Your also my pastor as a Catholic. I love you truly. I actually pray that God blesses your family! Thank you for being authentic.
Amen.
Um, he isn't your pastor as a Catholic. I am an actual Catholic and Dr. Ortlund does not have apostolic succession. Ergo his pastorshood according to our mutual supposed Catholic belief isn't valid.
@@dman7668neither do you. You cannot trace it back to the apostles and you cannot tell me a single word Christ or the apostles said that’s not found in scripture.
@@KnightFel The Catholic/Orthodoxy Churches have valid apostolic succession. Dr ortlund and all the protestant Churches do not.
Gavin you are a gem and a good man. Catholics tend not to like having their Church critiqued and will cowardly gang up on you if you do. Glad you didn't fall for their toxic mind games. God bless you. Your in my prayers. You are the Protestant apologist that we need.