“It’s a comforting thought the way Christ is so responsive to faith, and I believe God values sincerity, so if you are full-blooded, wholehearted, with every level of your being seeking truth, I think we know we have a God who will honor that.” -Gavin Ortland at 28 minutes. Beautiful
What a wonderful way to wind down from a debate. This might be good for you guys, but it is even better for us. In the livestream chat there was a lot of unhelpful fighting talk. Let's work towards unity and disagree graciously. We can all learn from sering you guys relax together after the "fight"
Gavin seems very sincere Christian. I'm sure his interpretation of scripture for the most part is very worth listening. Nevertheless if someone else is needed to interpret scripture that someone has ultimate authority, not scripture.🤔
@@Gericho49 I would like you very much to consider why Catholics tend to rely on Mass to have scripture read to them and interpreted for them instead of reading it for themselves...just food for thought. It is a very real issue among Catholics. Read your comment, and then think about that for a moment...
I loved that debate. It was by far the most edifying Catholic/protestant dialogue I've ever seen. Was far more a dialogue than a debate. I've seen the older ones w/ James White, but I didn't have that edge of my seat anxiety that I'd get from those. It wasn't always White that was the contentious one. One of the most nasty ones was a Catholic priest who was getting angry, and White was oldly extra respectful of the Father and wasn't his usual snarky self. There was none of that awful tension here, and both Gavin and Trent were so respectful and relaxed w/ each other.
For all his insights and good behavior... he is turning people away from Christ's Church. But if he is a stepping stone for some to get home, that's obviously good. Maybe one day he will come home, too.
@@ScynthescizorI love how all Protestants see a believer in Christ as a brother but Catholics see all outsiders as teammates with the devil. Catholics can’t admit when they’re wrong but Protestants can.
@@anglishbookcraft1516 That's not how Catholics see protestants... As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety..." CCC 838. And denominational protestants are suspicious of each other as well, hence all the fracturing over doctrine. It's hard to speak of protestants as one group that can "admit when they're wrong." For the record, Catholics should (and many do) admit when they are wrong, too...
Gavin is such a nice soft spoken guy, Catholic here love Trent I think he’s this generations Scott Hahn but love Gavin for being so charitable and kind, proud to have him as a Protestant brother in Christ
@@diewollsocke2674 Gavin claims to understand Christianity better than the Church Fathers, who were all Catholic priests. He twists bits from their writings to claim they somehow were Protestants.
I loved the debate, but I loved this even more. This is so rare. We need more of this. As a former Protestant who converted to Catholicism 12 years ago, I have so much respect and love for Gavin.
I’m only 15 minutes in and WOW, what an edifying conversation. I am a passionate convert to the Catholic Church, and I am newly inspired to dialogue with my Protestant friends and family and really LISTEN. Thank you for this conversation.
Loved the interview. Really looking forward to Gavin’s upcoming work on divine hiddenness. That’s a huge issue for skeptics and at times Christians like myself.
Jordan Peterson's series on the psychological significance of the biblical stories showed me the absurdity of atheism, Tim Mackie showed me God and Christ. History and scripture showed me the Catholic Church.
@@UniteAgainstEvil I agree with you. I'm an Anglican. It was what I was born into and what I know. It fulfils me, so I've never felt the need to seek another domination. Simple as that. I can imagine that is the same for many in whatever domination they belong to or perhaps other who have found a domination that fulfils them or is the truth to them. I see all Christians as my brother and sister in Christ. I try to see what unites us and don't get angry or judgemental about the differences. We are all fallible and try to our best to with our faith, in what can be confusing, trying, challenging, etc. We are united in the belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. The holy trinity. Belief in resurrection of Jesus. Original Sin. Salvation, I know there differences in belief about what salvation entails, but ultimately only God and Jesus can deliver it to humans. Belief in the power of grace. Belief that Jesus' ministry and life were some sort of guidelines to how we should live our lives. So from my perspective, let love, compassion and forgiveness be the ruling principles of our life. I'm not perfect of course, but I try to do that.
@mgkernowek what you say is beautiful. Though if we just tiptoe into the waters we do a disservice to ourselves as well as others. Apologetics are so beneficial if done with love and truth. Church fathers called out arianism, jansenism, etc. It's better for individuals and societies as a whole. We fall into error and revolution without clear authority of teachings. God bless you all for speaking in kindness.
I think you guys are shining, a bright light and showing how things are to be done. I have respect for both sides. I am a former Catholic and now reformed Protestant Christian that said much respect to Trent. He is a great debater and I think you guys are helping to shed light on the subject
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't both Luther "Bondage of the Will" and Calvin in his Institutes deny freewill? The obvious question then follows how can anyone be morally culpable and responsible for anything they say and do? Matt 16 27, Rom 2 6 Revelation 22 12.
@@Gericho49 all of us are accountable to God for our actions. All of us are guilty because we have violated and broken God’s holy law. Also true: we are not able to seek God without his drawing and initiation. This is what happens when the gospel is preached, rightly dead sinners are brought to life.
@@Gericho49 a specific understanding of human volition was rejected by Luther & Calvin. The Bible presents us with a very basic truth, being image bearers we posses real volition and responsibility. Question is how do we define “free wil”.
⚔️ Holy God’s Truth v Deceptions of Satan = Spiritual War ⚔️ Catholicism is a religion different than biblically based Christianity. Irreconcilable Differences remain. “Watch out no one deceives you. For many will come in my name claiming “I am the Christ” and will deceive many.”
@@laurahorn Is Trent a Big Mac guy or a Quarter Pounder guy? Luckily for him the debate was on a Thursday night otherwise he’d be stuck with Filet O Fish 😂
@truthunites I can’t believe this was your first live debate! You did such a good job! I’m on Trent’s side, but you really kept the flow going and listened well, didn’t deflect. You should do more live.
Oh, my goodness I am so glad you guys commented on this video! I stumbled across an episode of your podcast on Spotify (I believe) maybe a year ago, but I completely lost track of what the name of the podcast was. Since then I kept thinking, “One girl was Protestant, one was Catholic, and they were friends, and they were great,” and I can’t tell you how many times I tried to google “Catholic and Protestant friend discuss things podcast” lol! I am so happy to be reconnected with this, there aren’t enough female voices in this discussion! I love your content 🤍 Edit: Is the interview with Gavin and Trent upcoming or is it available already?
You know I hear you, as a Catholic I've come to really enjoy Orland, because he provides a great example of charity. He demonstrates how to disagree with love.
Dr White is inflammatory? Would you not say that Saint Paul was inflammatory? Why did he could beat up and tortured so much? Anyhow, I did like the debate and I am a fan of both Trent and Gavin and Dr. James White. 😮
As a guitarist I have always thought that music is great evidence for God. I've actually been thinking about writing a book on the subject because it has fascinated me for a long time. The fact that I can play a guitar instrumental that has no lyrics, and yet the sounds somehow speak to people, and they speak uniquely to each person, meaning that the sounds will say something different to different people depending on their experiences in life. It's like God speaking through the instrument in the most beautiful language imaginable, and speaks to each separate individual hearing it. There was even a Harvard study that came out a few years ago that demonstrated that music has a unique set of codes and patterns that are universally understood by humans. It doesn't seem to make sense under naturalism. How is it possible that specific sounds can be called "notes" and are recognized by all humans and understood inherently, and yet non-musical sounds don't speak at all. They are both made up of sound waves, but only certain sounds speak to us. It is absolutely mind astonishing! When I think of creation, I'm sincerely in more awe of the invention of music, than I am the creation of stars. To think about how incredibly powerful and important music is to humanity, and to think that the very concept, structure, etc was created for us out of nothing is just beyond glorious. There's no need for music in a naturalistic world at all, and there was no need for God to create something so beautiful. It is beauty for beauty's sake, and it is out of love that it was gifted to us. How good must one be who could create music, didn't have to, and gave such a gift to sinners like us.
One thing that came to mind is the question of what the ultimate goal of all the debates, dialogue, and ecumenism is from Gavin's perspective. As a Catholic, what unity means is relatively easy: the joining of all Christian communities to the Catholic faith and the authority of the Pope. But I wonder what being united by truth (pun intended) woild look like in practice to Gavin, and how would he know when it's been achieved. I may email him directly about this.
I think he's laid it out piecemeal in his videos. Unity is simply recognizing each other as Christians, w/ love and respect. We are not ever going to unite under the RCC banner and submit to the pope. The Orthodox aren't ever coming back to that either. It's likely always going to be a shaky unity, from the ground up. It starts w/ us. I think the Catholic church is coming closer to is, recognizing protestant Christians as disenfranchised brethren. Not sure if that's the exact wording, but something like that. The Orthodox are partly back to fellowship I think too w/ a certain council. We're not all in agreement on all doctrines though and never will be.
By saying "catholic faith" you are indirectly creating divisionalism in the christian faith which is a really bad idea. Either we are follower of Christ or not, being a catholic or not. Its that simple.
@@trinitymatrix9719 We are all Christians. Some Catholics understand that the RCC is its own tradition and that there are other Christian traditions. Unfortunately, many Catholics look to their church before seeing themselves as Christians. It's all about the RCC and what it says, the bible is a distant second to that. So there them, unity would only be under Catholicism, because that is the ultimate authority. Some even say it that way too. You can't point out scripture to those types, because whatever their church tells them is law. They will tell me outright, that I can't interpret scripture, because only their church can. They will also claim to have written the bible and that the church gives scripture its authority. It's very sad and frustrating, because it's like they are in mind control cult. I'm not saying that Catholicism is a cult, but that some Catholics have that mentality.
Great conversation. What Gavin says at 26:00 and after until close to 28:00 is totally compatible with how the Catholic Church ans her magisterium work. You submit to the Church on topics you don't have time to study, and you live life according to those truths in a holistic way.
And finding peace on the core stuff while not putting too much emotional weight on secondary stuff - that's the non-definitive or non-doctrinal stuff, the Church defines that.
Glad to see friendly Catholics, as a Protestant I’ve run into some really horrible Catholics as of late, however I’m sure the same can be said of our side, I’m glad everyone enjoyed the debate.
As a former Catholic of barely 30, I can attest that MANY Catholics still don’t know their Bibles. It’s one of the many reasons I could no longer be a part of that denomination. I saw too many examples of Catholics who simply went to Sunday service because they were always told to, couldn’t tell you why they were doing the things of worship, sacraments, or prayers they were other than that’s how they were raised or the Priesthood told them so. If I were to ask them about specific Bible verses (even to this day) they will look at me like I have two heads. It wasn’t until I went to Anglican and other Protestant churches who encouraged me to actually read my Bible and understand the Word that I began to ask genuine questions and get answers, and it was only in these other Faith Groups that I was getting answers. My Catholic brothers and sisters whom I actually know still don’t know actual Bible verses, they don’t know whether their liturgical practices are based in scripture or from the Church itself. They don’t know what I mean when I ask them “what saves you? Where does Grace come from?” I can say as a firm Protestant that I acknowledge my Catholic brothers and sisters as part of the catholic and apostlolic church, but some of them will flat out call me a pagan for the mere fact that I am not a part of a Church that isn’t under the Pope.
The issue is more so with the fact Catholics in nations with a majority or large community simply became very complicit in their standing and didn’t see the need in reading it anymore. This shouldn’t be seen as a point of whether or not Catholicism is true or not however, it’s reflective more on the state of the world than the church, there’s certainly issues with this in other nations with non-Catholic majorities as well, this isn’t solely vested within Catholicism solely. Anyone who says you’re pagan is not acting in their right mind, I still however would ask that you still look into Catholicism and not turn away from it completely.
Maybe you were asking the wrong people or inappropriate questions since you said said after going from congregation to congregation you started asking genuine questions.
@@mr.anderson2241t some point in the past the RCC forbade its members from reading the Bible. Today the RCC is encouraging Bible reading, however that can be dangerous for the conscience of a Catholic because they can find a divergence between the RCC catechism and what they are reading in the Bible. That was what happened to me. I was Catholic until I studied the Bible and afterward couldn’t in good faith continue to be Catholic because I saw so many differences between the Catechism and what I was reading.
I think you are dead wrong - not just Catholics but all of Christianity have not been educated in their faith if one is 50 years or younger. I'm Catholic and I know many Catholics who know their Bible; I just did Bible in a Year with Father Mike, awesome and this year doing Catechism in year. I guarantee you will be back in the Catholic Church if you are deeply searching; peace to you on your journey.
Actually, a return to the ever old ever new is provign to be the greatest attractant in my corner of the world which is designated the most unchristian in the west. The traditions, the full answers, and the answers that NEVER CHANGE. Protestantism does not have these and worse, they dont have the Sacraments which are like rebar in the house built upon a rock.
@Pints with Aquinas Thanks Dr Gavin Ortlund and Trent Horn for debating and also Matt for hosting most of all this after debate conversation was nice to see these 3 gentlemen just Converse And have a friendly Christian dialog with each other. We need more of this we need more of these teachers to step up and follow there lead. Like Jimmy, Suan, Francis Chan and more Protestant brothers..
I feel like the first 5 mins was a little awkward considering it didn’t involve Gavin much and was a bit boasty. I’ve watched several of Trent’s debates and as a fellow catholic, questioning the magisterium, justifiably in my opinion thinking Trent has a patronizing vibe. He’s more bearable here. Idk maybe it’s just me.
Speaking of Jiu Jitsu, I want Trent to debate John Danaher, the well-decorated Jiu Jitsu coach who is also a materialist. Both guys are very smart. It would be fun to watch.
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation: 00:14 🤖 Online accountability and filtering software Covenant Eyes is recommended for addressing pornography issues. 03:22 🛡️ Debates have evolved with more respectful interactions between Catholics and Protestants, driven partly by shared challenges from cultural shifts and atheism. 06:24 🤝 Debates are valuable for sparking interest and encouraging people to investigate topics further rather than immediately deciding based on a single debate. 11:42 📢 Vocal and confrontational voices don't represent the entirety of either side's views; patient dialogue is essential to understanding and progress. 15:41 😅 Careful and limited use of mockery or sharp rhetoric can be effective, but a focus on patient dialogue and substantive arguments is crucial. 18:00 👥 To engage in debates, one should learn the rules, prepare extensively, focus on succinct expression, and acknowledge when the debate format might not be one's strength. 20:17 🥊 When engaging in debates, start with smaller platforms to gain experience and humility, avoiding mismatched debates. 21:12 🙌 Seek counsel and feedback from others to refine your debate skills and identify your strengths and weaknesses. 21:56 💬 Not every conversation needs to be public; private discussions can be valuable for learning and growth. 22:24 📖 Misunderstandings about Sola Scriptura can arise, like assuming the Bible should contain everything Jesus did. 24:14 📚 Don't oversimplify theological positions; complex topics require nuanced understanding and careful engagement. 27:30 🕊️ Find your identity in the core of your faith rather than peripheral beliefs, which reduces emotional loyalty to non-central issues. 29:38 🌟 It's okay to lean towards a belief that resonates with you, even if you're not fully certain, and let that journey bring you closer to truth. 34:13 📖 Writing books on complex topics evolves with experience; refine arguments and approach based on ongoing engagement and learning. 37:26 📚 Present traditional arguments for God's existence within a narrative framework that addresses both intellectual and emotional dimensions. 39:02 🌍 Focus on cultural apologetics that addresses contemporary despair, loneliness, lack of transcendence, and spiritual restlessness. 39:59 🌄 Cultural shifts have led to a reconsideration of atheism, with figures like Jordan Peterson contributing to discussions about meaning and spirituality. 40:54 🎵 Music Argument: Music conveys transcendence and meaning in a non-representational manner, which is hard to explain in a naturalistic worldview. 43:25 🌍 Changing Apologetics Landscape: Apologetics needs to address cultural and moral dynamics, as many people are leaving the church due to various concerns. 46:56 🌈 Moral Argument: Atheism struggles to ground specific moral values like human dignity and equality, which are difficult to explain without a transcendent foundation. 53:02 🎶 Music and Meaning: Music conveys meaning and transcendence, and the Christian worldview provides a better explanation for its significance compared to naturalistic explanations. 57:52 🔑 Addressing Jehovah's Witnesses: Engaging in Biblical exegesis might not be the most effective approach. Focus on compelling arguments that challenge their worldview. 01:03:43 🤔 Questioning beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and their authority. 01:04:09 🤨 Discussing skepticism towards the authority of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. 01:04:37 🧐 Raising doubts about the legitimacy and credibility of the Watchtower's authority. 01:06:02 😕 Exploring the challenge of animal suffering in the context of the problem of evil. 01:07:50 🤔 Examining the possibility of animal consciousness and suffering in relation to theology. 01:08:17 🤔 Addressing the challenge of animal suffering and evil in a theological framework. 01:12:32 😄 Reflecting on personal experiences of encountering God's existence. 01:14:23 🤨 Analyzing the nature of possibilities and their implications. 01:15:10 😅 Exploring humorous scenarios and philosophical "what if" questions. 01:20:22 🤯 Discussing divine simplicity, its importance, and historical context. 01:23:18 🤷 Approaching conversations with individuals who are indifferent or bored by the topic of God's existence. 01:24:25 🧘♂️ The discussion covers the contention between belief in God and science, often fueled by celebrity atheistic scientists, but many faithful scientists hold religious beliefs. 01:25:19 🌄 Overly literalistic readings of scripture can lead to misunderstandings, but belief in God and science isn't mutually exclusive; many scientists believe in God, especially in fundamental fields like biology and physics. 01:26:42 🌋 A child's analogy: Explaining God's existence to a child is like explaining life after the womb; it's challenging to conceive what's beyond one's limited view, highlighting the limits of human understanding. 01:30:10 🚶♂️ Doubts in faith are healthy and analogous to having antibodies in the body; having some doubts challenges faith and helps it grow stronger over time. 01:33:00 🧐 Skepticism of the "stoned ape theory," suggesting biblical visions were influenced by natural psychedelics. Arguments like the trilemma and the depth of Christ's teachings counter this perspective. 01:35:12 🌌 Belief in God gives life ultimate meaning; in a theistic worldview, everything matters, and every moment is filled with purpose, contributing to a greater drama unfolding towards eternity. 01:38:45 💡 Engaging in meaningful interactions and relationships is inspired by faith in God, emphasizing the significance of loving and caring for others. 01:41:02 🛤️ Gavin Ortlund will take a personal sabbatical to focus on family and reflection, while Trent Horn plans to continue engaging in debates, book projects, and addressing atheist arguments.
Galvin you are an amazing brother. Im so humbled and my love for you is endless. I'm Catholic but I am so thankful for you! I love you and have the same Jesus and I believe we will be in heaven together if I endure to the end. You are amazing GO!
How am I to know what the religious Truth is when opposed debaters are decisively convincing? Considering I am not a brilliant historian and theologian, I am very glad that I am Catholic and have a Church with authority from Christ. If I didn't have that I would likely be indifferent to Truth and tend to define it as whatever I am comfortable with.
His YT videos are mostly to disprove all Catholic teachings, this is dangerous for the soul of anyone who is not grounded in their Catholic faith....It's like the American Protestants that goes to Catholic countries (in Asia and Africa) trying to convert them into Protestantism. Their pews are thinning and fragmenting in the US and they look out to other countries to survive.
For Trent to imply that theópneustos means "life giving" instead of "God breathed", thereby nullifying the very root of the word, is incredible! Something like a man drowning in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean in the middle of a storm grabbing at a floating plastic straw. Unbelievable!!
I applaud these gentlemen who do believe in God. And weirdly, there are more men now being converted, especially to Catholicism especially being drawn to the Traditional Latin Mass even if they don't speak Latin, yet are being deeply touched by it. Praise God! Now praying for more women conversion. 🙏
That’s so true! I was in the new age and when God called me back home I was a lukewarm kinda still only culturally catholic. On a trip to visit my sister in the south, she knew I was back in my faith so told me there was a Catholic Church 3 minutes away …. On two Sunday I walked into a Latin mass and a very reverent novus ordo .. the Latin mass …. Wow 🥲 it stole my heart and I realized Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist. Latin mass changed me & it’s just such a blessing
Gavin is the most charitable Protestant apologist. I am a Catholic who can listen to him because he is welcoming but firm on his beliefs. You really are the opposite of James White. You are his improvement, i.e. a new and superior James White of the Reformed tradition.
Good convo. Trent appears to have a little ‘stache started and if you just give him a brief look and add a full ‘stache, I think he could be Miles Teller’s brother! Trent could be in Top Gun III, call sign Black Swan or something…he brings up black swans I believe in some of his debates…😂😂😂
1:09:02 Wouldn't we have to affirm the fall affected nature--in Genesis 1, God gave all of the animals greens to eat, so, in Isaiah's prophecy, when it refers to the lion eating straw as the ox, it would just be a reversion to its original diet. One would think biological changes would have to occur, since lions seem to be outfitted for the diet they are known to eat during this age. 1:38:18 "Stoned ape theory" : isn't this the theory that humans, among the apes, came to be humans by reason of using hallucinogens?
LOVE--I watched the debate last evening and commented on it afterward. Since then, my heart and mind have been overwhelmed by 1 Corinthians, chapters 1-13. Paul wrote "to the church of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be holy, with all those everywhere who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." (1 Cor. 1:2) Then, he wrote these words that cut to my heart in the context of last evening's debate, "I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose." (1 Cor. 1:10) He then chastises them for their factions (and us for ours), pointing them to Christ Crucified, the Field and Temple of God, Participation in the Body and Blood of Christ, the One Body of Christ in One Spirit, all held together by the LOVE that never gives up and never fails (1 Cor. chapters 1, 3, 10-11, 12, and 13). Paul URGES us to unite in Christ Jesus and the LOVE that never gives up--Cruciform Love Even of Enemies; not to unite in HUMAN WISDOM and arguments of and about infallible authority (1 Cor. chapter 2). Woe to us, if we continue to work for the destruction of the Temple of God through our human factions/divisions, instead of striving for unity in the Crucified Jesus and His LOVE that never gives up. As Paul wrote, "Do you not know that you (plural "you" in Greek) are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you (again, plural "you" in Greek) are, is holy." (1 Cor. 3:16-17). Perhaps we're called to be under the same roof as ONE FAMILY, praying the OUR FATHER, eating the same COMMUNION, and imitating God in Christ Jesus the best we can (Eph. 5:1-2), instead of worshipping and living under separate roofs (different denominations). I am not naive to the historical and doctrinal issues involved here, but I do not see how we can go on as we have for centuries with a clear conscience. We MUST unite around the Crucified Jesus and His Love! (For full disclosure, in my post last evening and reply this morning, I recited the same old and tired infallibility for unity argument. I now repent of that in the LIGHT of 1 Cor. chapters 1-13.) Jesus, please keep praying for us! John 17:20-23
I'm praying for a good catholic apologist to go one Joe Rogan. Personally I think he's the most influential anticatholic out there. He probably doesn't even mean to have that title but everytime he talks about religion with a negative connotation he's talking about the RCC. So.eo e like Trent who's into jujitsu or jimmy who's into science and out of the box thinking. My dream podcast.
I think it has to do with some experiences he had when he was younger. A random man off the street almost abused him but he escaped. So he's probably bought into the stereotype of the Church in that respect and so is against it. Then there is the view of history he gets from people like Graham Hancock. Good in a way because it points out the intellectual hubris of the mainstream scientific community. But bad because Graham is a classical liberal and very anticatholic. That little rant he had a few months ago about the Mayans was both incorrect and biased against the Church.
@RJ-bq5mr yeah I know exactly what you're talking about. My buddy at work listens to the podcast at work... usually pretty interesting but his anticatholic rants make my head spin. I pray for a good apologist to go on there and set the record straight. He has such a large audience and those stereotypes are getting in the way of our true mission
42:48-44:39 reminds me of Charles Taylor's book "A Secular Age" in which it is not belief itself but the cultural conditions of belief that characterize secularity. Great insights from Gavin there.
I'm learning more about catholicism. I'd really like to hear from a grounded Catholic like Trent or Matt on the story of the thief on the cross and context of Jesus saying he or God the father seeing the thief in paradise that day. I only have a protestant understanding. I would love to know how the eucharist or , like how salvation works in that regard. As far as I understand, which I could be wrong, is that the eucharist or baptism is necessary for salvation. So it made me curious about the thief on the cross. Or if anyone is able to help me better understand❤️🙏 thank you to anyone that can help. I truly have a genuine desire and have grown to admire the Catholic faith after learning more about it for myself. Also, to add to my question, when God talks about a day being like 1k years, and 1k years being like a day, does that apply to that day of the thief going to paradise. Also, paradise would be Abraham's Bossom right? Oh, which them brought another question just now. Do people go straight to purgatory after death? I know there isn't a chasm in hell anymore right ? That separates God's children and unbelievers before Christ died and rose . I guess I would like to know what paradise is from a Catholic point of view. I really appreciate it❤️❤️ much love!!
Hi @Rachel Still - I'm not a Trent or Matt ... but just to give you something from an ordinary Catholic's perspective .... The Thief on the Cross story confirms that those who have faith in God and who desire to repent and be with Him in Heaven will be saved. The Catholic belief is that Jesus was sent to Redeem mankind. Through Grace from God that He gives us Faith. When creating us, God so loved us that He gave us free will - He did not bound us to love Him and do His will, but He wants us to freely choose to believe in Him and honour/ worship Him and do His will while we are on earth. Of course, we sin and don't always do what God asks of us. But in His kindness, God will forgive us if we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness. Provided we die in a "state of Grace" - i.e. not separated from God - then we we share His eternal glory in Heaven. The "state of Grace" is that we have rejected God on a grave matter that we fully understand and are not repentant of - ie we chose to be separated from God. God has also given us the Sacraments to help us in our journey on earth to follow Him and do His will. The Sacraments are an outward sign of Gods grace (gift) to us. Through normal life, a Catholic Christian is helped follow Jesus through a living Faith that not only believes in God, but acts out that faith as taught to us when Jesus was on earth (Love one another as I have loved you). Normally Catholic Christians will be baptised, receive the Eucharist, attend Reconciliation and be Confirmed. They receive the sacrament of Marriage or Holy orders and possibly Anointing of the Sick. They pray privately, attend Mass, read the Bible and act on their Faith by doing works of charity and giving alms etc as best they can as taught by Jesus. However, these are the "normal means" of receiving grace and getting to heaven. Jesus can do "super-normal" things - such as curing people, raising them from the dead etc. So when Jesus said to the Thief on the Cross that he would be with Him in paradise - then that is God's will. Jesus told us not to judge - so we cannot judge what will happen to anyone - whether they are Catholics or not. It is Jesus that will judge us all when we die on this earth. So we cannot say how Jesus will judge someone who is not baptised, or does not receive the sacraments etc etc. That is for Jesus to decide. Your second query on Purgatory is that Purgatory is a process of cleaning the Sole on the way to Heaven. Is it an instant or a long time and what does it entail has been speculated on for centuries. We just don't know! You can search for more detail on the Biblical references to Purgatory on sites like CatholicAnswers.dot comm - but Catholics believe that nothing unclean shall enter Heaven - and Purgatory "purges" the affects of sin. We believe that there is temporal punishment due to sin, that is simply the debt of satisfaction which I owe to God for our sins even after the sins themselves have been forgiven. It it a matter of "repairing the damage". I don't understand your comment on "I know there isn't a chasm in hell anymore right ? " as Catholics do believe there is Hell and separation from God in eternity - so I cannot comment. Hopefully that answers your queries .... on my simple level :)
@@pboyle3723 thank you for your thoughtful reply. I really appreciate it❤️ I know that took time to write. In regards to the chasm. I was trying to say that before Jesus died, saved people would go to Abraham's Bossom(one side of hell that is separated by a chasm from unsaved) at least this was something I learned.
@@Jesusgirl00 Ah - I understand now Rachel. Yes ... the belief is that people go to Prugatory after death. Logically it would be after Judgement, as the person's soul is on it's way to Heaven - but that is me putting my earthly logic to it 😊
Please don't assume your views know who these people are. Sometimes you introduce them and sometimes you don't. I am very familiar with Trent, but don't know Gavin or his background. I didn't finish this discussion yet but would have liked to come into it knowing the players.
I think atheism inevitably leads to nihilism. To say, "Life can still be meaningful without God, it just has whatever meaning I choose to give it" falls apart in the face of the belief that underlying it all, life is fundamentally meaningless and pointless. But God makes everything meaningful, purposeful and significant in an absolute and eternal sense. Every single thing that exists takes on meaning within this view. The entire world is filled with God's grace, every moment, every experience, every blade of grass and grain of sand.
I enjoy listening to all of you. TY to all of you to trust God and your belief in Him to have real conversations with someone from the other side. Comment for algorithm.
I was an atheist who came back into faith & I was really struggling to decide which way is the right way Protestant or Catholic. It caused me a lot of distress & I wanted to do the right thing. I studied arguments of both sides and read about it. In the end I asked Jesus to give me an answer in my dream. I rarely dream and I never remember my dreams. In 2 days after my prayer (when I actually forgot I prayed about it) I dreamed a dream that contained an answer to my question (and I do remember that one 😁). Pray to our Lord and do your best. ❤️
Not everyone can afford covenant eyes, I don't live in the US or any western country and my salary is just not enough. I read the easypeasy method, and prayed the rosary and it worked so far.
Great point Matt about conflicting views we have with other Christians and we know they aren’t stupid. Totally get that. My grandfather is highly intelligent was a Senior Chief in the military and is a devout Baptist. We obviously disagree on serious matters of faith. I think for him he grew up in it, his father was a Methodist preacher and become Baptist and dragged my grandfather along. It’s all he’s knows and it’s his identity. I don’t think he could change that if he tried. It’s belief overriding reasons and I think the good Lord will settle it for us when we die. Can do the whole we told you so in heaven
One of these gentlemen need to write a book on why the atheist worldview is such a dark and horrible place. There are so many out there who default to the atheist position because it’s easy and trendy, and haven’t taken the time to think atheism’s consequences through. No more than 100 pages, hard hitting that you can read in a day and give to your kids.
Any thoughts on The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name Book by Brian C. Muraresku? In this book acheo-botanical evidence shows the wine consumed by early Christians containing psychedelic plants. It also makes reference of psychedelic potions saved in Vatican archives.
At the 9 minute mark, Matt asks Gavin how the debate between Protestants and Catholics has evolved. From my perspective, I think Catholics have seized most of the intellectual territory in this debate. A lot of the arguments that Luther, Calvin and Zwingli introduced have either been entirely abandoned, or modified to the point of having almost no resemblance to what was originally asserted. This has in a way pushed Protestants into an intellectual corner so to speak. Protestants have to become increasingly innovative in their arguments in order for Protestantism to be true. This is in part because Catholics have covered so much ground in voluminous works of almost unfathomable proportion that classical Protestant rhetoric is no longer viable. The challenge has now become almost insurmountable because the collective mind of the Church, unified in dogma, doctrine and authority will always be able to have the intellectual edge in a debate against an isolated mind who has been pushed into increasingly deeper waters with allies who can’t even agree on where and why they disagree with Catholics. Because Gavin is a single isolated mind in dialogue with a few other isolated minds, the blind spots in his arguments are not immediately clear to him. He has to find new ways to push back against this mountain of Catholic rhetoric lodged against him in order for his affection towards classical protestant doctrine to be intellectually vindicated. When territory is being lost and you are in retreat and on the defensive, you start to become increasingly desperate and irrational; in denial of what seems to be smacking you right in the middle of your face. Gavin’s arguments have that flavour. He is a very intelligent man, but he is just one person in possession of one finite mind, and it is impossible to know everything and get everything right. I pray that one day God will give him the grace to abandon what he wants to be true and see what is actually true.
I was surprised that Trent didn’t bring up the facts that copying the Bible was a tedious endeavor and very few scriptures were available. Also the illiteracy rate was high for centuries so most couldn’t read the Bible anyways. Then the added problem of translation into different languages! I apologize if missed it. Nevertheless most people for centuries “heard” the scriptures at liturgical gatherings they didn’t/couldn’t read the scriptures! So Sola Scriptura was not tenable even from a practical point of view!
I would struggle with this mindset because you said they still heard the scriptures. So they could have applied it to their lives. Many protestants dont read the Bible everyday but recieve the word like that. Just a thought
Yes people for 1900 years had a low life expectancy and were illiterate. All they had to go on was faith, memorizing hymns and prayers like the Our Father and the Nicene Creed and the sacraments. Especially. The Eucharist. Yet Protestants are so condemning of Catholic history. Thry would not be here at all if it wasn't for Catholics defending Christendom from invading Muslims. They hate to look at their own vile 500 year history of slavery and colonization.
Sola Scriptura doesn't mean everyone has to personally read the scriptures. That would be untenable even when Sola Scriptura was first formulated. It is only a principle on which the Church should define doctrine. (i.e. Only those teachings contained in the Scripture are infallible and absolute.) Popular "biblicism" is way younger than Sola Scriptura, and is mainly a result of evangelicalism and pietism which stresses personal faith and activism.
Matt’s concern about disagreement with peers, or even people smarter than you, is really incisive. There’s actually a whole philosophical literature about the epistemology of disagreement concerning this problem, and surprise- philosophers disagree about what to do about disagreement! It’s a fascinating literature that’s still sort of in its infancy relative to other philosophical problems. Lara Buchak is a great Catholic resource involved in this debate about faith, rationally, and disagreement.
Hi Matt, really appreciate you encouraging people to get covenant eyes to help with porn addictions. Can I recommend you also encourage people praying more, especially the Holy Rosary everyday,the whole 4 mysteries if possible,(which it is!), daily as prayer and fasting are the most effective ways to break addictions which are spiritual problems! Haven’t watch porn sin I started praying the whole rosary everyday! Praise Jesus and Mary!
“It’s a comforting thought the way Christ is so responsive to faith, and I believe God values sincerity, so if you are full-blooded, wholehearted, with every level of your being seeking truth, I think we know we have a God who will honor that.” -Gavin Ortland at 28 minutes.
Beautiful
I’m Catholic but I really respect Gavin and his insight as well as Trent and Matt.
Me too, specially on this segment.
I'm a Protestant, and I reciprocate.
@@VVeremoose Good job chaps. Hear hear!
Me too!
Dr. Gavin makes the most sense tbh! But love that the gentlemen are nice and respectful. LOve this respect. God bless 😊
What a wonderful way to wind down from a debate. This might be good for you guys, but it is even better for us. In the livestream chat there was a lot of unhelpful fighting talk. Let's work towards unity and disagree graciously. We can all learn from sering you guys relax together after the "fight"
❤
I agree. I get very amplify when hearing a debate, but at the end of the day we’re all brothers and sisters & remind everyone to remember that ❤
True. I like Gavin more after the debate than when he critiques videos. I think he’s wrong but I don’t want to debate him either 😂
@@brianfarley926 You certainly don't want to debate me...
The livestream chat was absolutely awful.
Proud protestant here. So happy to have dr. Gavin on our side, love it!
God bless you all brothers and sisters in Christ!
Gavin's church community is lucky to have him as a pastor.
They sure are
Gavin seems very sincere Christian. I'm sure his interpretation of scripture for the most part is very worth listening. Nevertheless if someone else is needed to interpret scripture that someone has ultimate authority, not scripture.🤔
@@Gericho49 The Holy Spirit helps us interpret Scripture. He is the ultimate authority
@@Gericho49 I would like you very much to consider why Catholics tend to rely on Mass to have scripture read to them and interpreted for them instead of reading it for themselves...just food for thought. It is a very real issue among Catholics. Read your comment, and then think about that for a moment...
@@Gericho49 It seems that our interpretation of Scripture is the ultimate authority.
I love the discussions way more than debates. Much easier for us with squirrel brains to follow. 😁
1:20:20 - great moment!
I loved that debate. It was by far the most edifying Catholic/protestant dialogue I've ever seen. Was far more a dialogue than a debate. I've seen the older ones w/ James White, but I didn't have that edge of my seat anxiety that I'd get from those. It wasn't always White that was the contentious one. One of the most nasty ones was a Catholic priest who was getting angry, and White was oldly extra respectful of the Father and wasn't his usual snarky self. There was none of that awful tension here, and both Gavin and Trent were so respectful and relaxed w/ each other.
Gavin is such a fantastic human being.
Gavin is my new favorite RUclips theology/apologetics channel.
For all his insights and good behavior... he is turning people away from Christ's Church. But if he is a stepping stone for some to get home, that's obviously good. Maybe one day he will come home, too.
@@Scynthescizor not true but go off.
Love him soooo much. Sound, articulate, gentle, true to the Bible. He models well what a true christian should look like.
@@ScynthescizorI love how all Protestants see a believer in Christ as a brother but Catholics see all outsiders as teammates with the devil. Catholics can’t admit when they’re wrong but Protestants can.
@@anglishbookcraft1516 That's not how Catholics see protestants... As the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety..." CCC 838. And denominational protestants are suspicious of each other as well, hence all the fracturing over doctrine. It's hard to speak of protestants as one group that can "admit when they're wrong." For the record, Catholics should (and many do) admit when they are wrong, too...
Gavin is such a nice soft spoken guy, Catholic here love Trent I think he’s this generations Scott Hahn but love Gavin for being so charitable and kind, proud to have him as a Protestant brother in Christ
It's a shtick.
@@fantasia55why do you think so?
@@diewollsocke2674 Gavin claims to understand Christianity better than the Church Fathers, who were all Catholic priests. He twists bits from their writings to claim they somehow were Protestants.
@@fantasia55Don’t forget how he reminds us how Irenic he is every five minutes.
@@thegoatofyoutube1787 He's a grifter with a clever schtick.
I loved the debate, but I loved this even more. This is so rare. We need more of this. As a former Protestant who converted to Catholicism 12 years ago, I have so much respect and love for Gavin.
I’m only 15 minutes in and WOW, what an edifying conversation. I am a passionate convert to the Catholic Church, and I am newly inspired to dialogue with my Protestant friends and family and really LISTEN. Thank you for this conversation.
Love this! Welcome home ❤❤❤
Amen. Welcome home. Pax Christi
Just remember the separation of church and state. This is a big issue for us
Welcome to the wider family of God. It's wonderful to find out our branch is not the whole tree.
What? 😂
Loved the interview. Really looking forward to Gavin’s upcoming work on divine hiddenness. That’s a huge issue for skeptics and at times Christians like myself.
Jordan Peterson was my door to the Catholic Church. His lectures on the old testament was new eyes to me.
Jordan Peterson is lost
Jordan Peterson's series on the psychological significance of the biblical stories showed me the absurdity of atheism, Tim Mackie showed me God and Christ. History and scripture showed me the Catholic Church.
"Catholic" means universal, fun fact
@@dann285 He is found
@@wheatandtares-xk4lp same my friend
Wow, this conversation is Chicken Soup for the Discerning Soul, lol. I am so glad y’all did this! Thank you Matt, Trent, and Gavin!🤍
Amen to that. Kinda stuck in the middle right now and it's wonderful to know that both sides are pursuing God and his truth.
Hey, I'm following your Catechism in a Year journey. Fancy meeting you here 🙂
@@John_Fisher This debate and convo was a nice little detour lol!
@@merelychristian8325 lol Indeed, two intelligent minds and class acts here, not to mention a great host!
@@merelychristian8325thanks for the videos you were doing regarding the catechism. Wish you would do more
Dr. Ortlund reflects the love of Christ so beautifully!
Absolutely, as a Catholic I really appreciate his charity.
@@dman7668why can't we all just bridge the divide? It's so very disheartening...
@@UniteAgainstEvilI think that’s what’s happening in this video 🙂
@@UniteAgainstEvil I agree with you. I'm an Anglican. It was what I was born into and what I know. It fulfils me, so I've never felt the need to seek another domination. Simple as that. I can imagine that is the same for many in whatever domination they belong to or perhaps other who have found a domination that fulfils them or is the truth to them.
I see all Christians as my brother and sister in Christ.
I try to see what unites us and don't get angry or judgemental about the differences. We are all fallible and try to our best to with our faith, in what can be confusing, trying, challenging, etc.
We are united in the belief that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. The holy trinity. Belief in resurrection of Jesus. Original Sin. Salvation, I know there differences in belief about what salvation entails, but ultimately only God and Jesus can deliver it to humans.
Belief in the power of grace. Belief that Jesus' ministry and life were some sort of guidelines to how we should live our lives.
So from my perspective, let love, compassion and forgiveness be the ruling principles of our life. I'm not perfect of course, but I try to do that.
@mgkernowek what you say is beautiful. Though if we just tiptoe into the waters we do a disservice to ourselves as well as others. Apologetics are so beneficial if done with love and truth. Church fathers called out arianism, jansenism, etc. It's better for individuals and societies as a whole. We fall into error and revolution without clear authority of teachings. God bless you all for speaking in kindness.
Why do I want Gavin and Trent to be best friends?
Because you're smart and cool
I want them to be, and Orthodox buddies. I want an Orthodox person involved
Bromance
I think you guys are shining, a bright light and showing how things are to be done. I have respect for both sides. I am a former Catholic and now reformed Protestant Christian that said much respect to Trent. He is a great debater and I think you guys are helping to shed light on the subject
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't both Luther "Bondage of the Will" and Calvin in his Institutes deny freewill? The obvious question then follows how can anyone be morally culpable and responsible for anything they say and do? Matt 16 27, Rom 2 6 Revelation 22 12.
@@Gericho49 all of us are accountable to God for our actions. All of us are guilty because we have violated and broken God’s holy law. Also true: we are not able to seek God without his drawing and initiation. This is what happens when the gospel is preached, rightly dead sinners are brought to life.
@@Gericho49 a specific understanding of human volition was rejected by Luther & Calvin. The Bible presents us with a very basic truth, being image bearers we posses real volition and responsibility.
Question is how do we define “free wil”.
Awesome protestant brothers in Christ! 😊
“For the audience the rhetoric will often be more influential than the arguments.” - GO
What a good insight, especially as a listener.
⚔️ Holy God’s Truth v Deceptions of Satan = Spiritual War ⚔️
Catholicism is a religion different than biblically based Christianity.
Irreconcilable Differences remain.
“Watch out no one deceives you.
For many will come in my name
claiming “I am the Christ”
and will deceive many.”
This is great. I love Trent’s plug for 🍔McDonalds🥤 at the beginning. 😂
The best. Trent: "I love treating my body like garbage. It costs me three dollars." Gavin: "I feel peace."
@@laurahorn Is Trent a Big Mac guy or a Quarter Pounder guy? Luckily for him the debate was on a Thursday night otherwise he’d be stuck with Filet O Fish 😂
Great show. I love Gavin’s ability to draw from not only scripture, but church history to support his convictions.
@truthunites I can’t believe this was your first live debate! You did such a good job! I’m on Trent’s side, but you really kept the flow going and listened well, didn’t deflect. You should do more live.
It was SO great to see the debate in person! And to meet all of you! Hope to have Gavin and Trent back on our show soon!
Oh, my goodness I am so glad you guys commented on this video! I stumbled across an episode of your podcast on Spotify (I believe) maybe a year ago, but I completely lost track of what the name of the podcast was. Since then I kept thinking, “One girl was Protestant, one was Catholic, and they were friends, and they were great,” and I can’t tell you how many times I tried to google “Catholic and Protestant friend discuss things podcast” lol! I am so happy to be reconnected with this, there aren’t enough female voices in this discussion! I love your content 🤍
Edit:
Is the interview with Gavin and Trent upcoming or is it available already?
Gavin Ortlund is such a great guy to listen to. He may be a Protestant, but I love his insights.
"may be a Protestant, but I love his insight" as if it's an insult....these veiled insults won't hide on the internet
BUT? Ugh. He makes more sense than most Catholics and I’m a Catholic.
Seriously !!??
@@nikkivenable73I agree dr. Gavin makes more sense than the catholics. 😊
I'm so happy to hear about Trent's love for martial arts and boxing. I feel so much closer to him now, in spite of my Protestantism!
You know I hear you, as a Catholic I've come to really enjoy Orland, because he provides a great example of charity. He demonstrates how to disagree with love.
@dman7668 yeah I feel the same way. They really both do a good job although I disagree with trent. They do things graciously.
So happy we can get them together on things they agree on lol, it feels so great! God bless you both!
Dr White is inflammatory? Would you not say that Saint Paul was inflammatory? Why did he could beat up and tortured so much? Anyhow, I did like the debate and I am a fan of both Trent and Gavin and Dr. James White. 😮
As a guitarist I have always thought that music is great evidence for God. I've actually been thinking about writing a book on the subject because it has fascinated me for a long time. The fact that I can play a guitar instrumental that has no lyrics, and yet the sounds somehow speak to people, and they speak uniquely to each person, meaning that the sounds will say something different to different people depending on their experiences in life. It's like God speaking through the instrument in the most beautiful language imaginable, and speaks to each separate individual hearing it. There was even a Harvard study that came out a few years ago that demonstrated that music has a unique set of codes and patterns that are universally understood by humans. It doesn't seem to make sense under naturalism. How is it possible that specific sounds can be called "notes" and are recognized by all humans and understood inherently, and yet non-musical sounds don't speak at all. They are both made up of sound waves, but only certain sounds speak to us. It is absolutely mind astonishing! When I think of creation, I'm sincerely in more awe of the invention of music, than I am the creation of stars. To think about how incredibly powerful and important music is to humanity, and to think that the very concept, structure, etc was created for us out of nothing is just beyond glorious. There's no need for music in a naturalistic world at all, and there was no need for God to create something so beautiful. It is beauty for beauty's sake, and it is out of love that it was gifted to us. How good must one be who could create music, didn't have to, and gave such a gift to sinners like us.
Beautiful.
@@justaguy328 interesting fact you might like the language of the angels is not speech but song
"Sense of meaningless if God did not exist" ... "As God exists, every single moment of your life is filled of meaning"
"Without love it's contraproductive." Amén!
One thing that came to mind is the question of what the ultimate goal of all the debates, dialogue, and ecumenism is from Gavin's perspective. As a Catholic, what unity means is relatively easy: the joining of all Christian communities to the Catholic faith and the authority of the Pope. But I wonder what being united by truth (pun intended) woild look like in practice to Gavin, and how would he know when it's been achieved. I may email him directly about this.
excellent question no cap
In the email tell him to make a video about it, im interested as well 😂
I think he's laid it out piecemeal in his videos. Unity is simply recognizing each other as Christians, w/ love and respect. We are not ever going to unite under the RCC banner and submit to the pope. The Orthodox aren't ever coming back to that either. It's likely always going to be a shaky unity, from the ground up. It starts w/ us. I think the Catholic church is coming closer to is, recognizing protestant Christians as disenfranchised brethren. Not sure if that's the exact wording, but something like that. The Orthodox are partly back to fellowship I think too w/ a certain council. We're not all in agreement on all doctrines though and never will be.
By saying "catholic faith" you are indirectly creating divisionalism in the christian faith which is a really bad idea. Either we are follower of Christ or not, being a catholic or not.
Its that simple.
@@trinitymatrix9719 We are all Christians. Some Catholics understand that the RCC is its own tradition and that there are other Christian traditions. Unfortunately, many Catholics look to their church before seeing themselves as Christians. It's all about the RCC and what it says, the bible is a distant second to that. So there them, unity would only be under Catholicism, because that is the ultimate authority. Some even say it that way too. You can't point out scripture to those types, because whatever their church tells them is law. They will tell me outright, that I can't interpret scripture, because only their church can. They will also claim to have written the bible and that the church gives scripture its authority. It's very sad and frustrating, because it's like they are in mind control cult. I'm not saying that Catholicism is a cult, but that some Catholics have that mentality.
Great conversation. What Gavin says at 26:00 and after until close to 28:00 is totally compatible with how the Catholic Church ans her magisterium work. You submit to the Church on topics you don't have time to study, and you live life according to those truths in a holistic way.
And finding peace on the core stuff while not putting too much emotional weight on secondary stuff - that's the non-definitive or non-doctrinal stuff, the Church defines that.
I couldn’t help liking Dr. Ortlund having previously only seen him in rebuttal videos. He has great ideas about evangelism.
That simultaneous "hmmm" at 1:12:43 had me laughing so much
Glad to see friendly Catholics, as a Protestant I’ve run into some really horrible Catholics as of late, however I’m sure the same can be said of our side, I’m glad everyone enjoyed the debate.
Por favor, activen los subtítulos para poder entenderles mejor desde España. Gracias
As a former Catholic of barely 30, I can attest that MANY Catholics still don’t know their Bibles. It’s one of the many reasons I could no longer be a part of that denomination. I saw too many examples of Catholics who simply went to Sunday service because they were always told to, couldn’t tell you why they were doing the things of worship, sacraments, or prayers they were other than that’s how they were raised or the Priesthood told them so. If I were to ask them about specific Bible verses (even to this day) they will look at me like I have two heads. It wasn’t until I went to Anglican and other Protestant churches who encouraged me to actually read my Bible and understand the Word that I began to ask genuine questions and get answers, and it was only in these other Faith Groups that I was getting answers. My Catholic brothers and sisters whom I actually know still don’t know actual Bible verses, they don’t know whether their liturgical practices are based in scripture or from the Church itself. They don’t know what I mean when I ask them “what saves you? Where does Grace come from?”
I can say as a firm Protestant that I acknowledge my Catholic brothers and sisters as part of the catholic and apostlolic church, but some of them will flat out call me a pagan for the mere fact that I am not a part of a Church that isn’t under the Pope.
The issue is more so with the fact Catholics in nations with a majority or large community simply became very complicit in their standing and didn’t see the need in reading it anymore. This shouldn’t be seen as a point of whether or not Catholicism is true or not however, it’s reflective more on the state of the world than the church, there’s certainly issues with this in other nations with non-Catholic majorities as well, this isn’t solely vested within Catholicism solely. Anyone who says you’re pagan is not acting in their right mind, I still however would ask that you still look into Catholicism and not turn away from it completely.
Maybe you were asking the wrong people or inappropriate questions since you said said after going from congregation to congregation you started asking genuine questions.
@@mr.anderson2241t some point in the past the RCC forbade its members from reading the Bible. Today the RCC is encouraging Bible reading, however that can be dangerous for the conscience of a Catholic because they can find a divergence between the RCC catechism and what they are reading in the Bible. That was what happened to me. I was Catholic until I studied the Bible and afterward couldn’t in good faith continue to be Catholic because I saw so many differences between the Catechism and what I was reading.
I think you are dead wrong - not just Catholics but all of Christianity have not been educated in their faith if one is 50 years or younger. I'm Catholic and I know many Catholics who know their Bible; I just did Bible in a Year with Father Mike, awesome and this year doing Catechism in year. I guarantee you will be back in the Catholic Church if you are deeply searching; peace to you on your journey.
My wife was a protestant. Then she started learning about Catholicism and rejected protestantism.
Gavins point about the need for a new cultural apologetic is so true and seems so obvious, best of luck with that
Actually, a return to the ever old ever new is provign to be the greatest attractant in my corner of the world which is designated the most unchristian in the west. The traditions, the full answers, and the answers that NEVER CHANGE. Protestantism does not have these and worse, they dont have the Sacraments which are like rebar in the house built upon a rock.
@Pints with Aquinas
Thanks Dr Gavin Ortlund and Trent Horn for debating and also Matt for hosting most of all this after debate conversation was nice to see these 3 gentlemen just Converse And have a friendly Christian dialog with each other. We need more of this we need more of these teachers to step up and follow there lead. Like Jimmy, Suan, Francis Chan and more Protestant brothers..
Gavin Ortlund, the new and superior James White.
Yes definitely more charitable and respectful in my opinion
@@rickydettmer2003 and a real PHD
He’s better, because Gavin thinks Catholics are Christians.
Gavin is so pastoral it’s unreal haha
I feel like the first 5 mins was a little awkward considering it didn’t involve Gavin much and was a bit boasty. I’ve watched several of Trent’s debates and as a fellow catholic, questioning the magisterium, justifiably in my opinion thinking Trent has a patronizing vibe. He’s more bearable here. Idk maybe it’s just me.
I’d rather be wrong with Christ than right with the atheists! (Dostoevsky)
Trent 46:40
Catholic here. I think Gavin's theory of the fall affecting nature and animals is very reasonable.
I want to see Trent horn and Gavin ortlund do a reverse debate.
Speaking of Jiu Jitsu, I want Trent to debate John Danaher, the well-decorated Jiu Jitsu coach who is also a materialist. Both guys are very smart. It would be fun to watch.
They should also have a Jiu Jitsu match and then a chess match. Winner is best of 3.
Good job boys! It's guys like this that give a great example of what being Christ like gentlemen should look like. 🙌
🎯 Key Takeaways for quick navigation:
00:14 🤖 Online accountability and filtering software Covenant Eyes is recommended for addressing pornography issues.
03:22 🛡️ Debates have evolved with more respectful interactions between Catholics and Protestants, driven partly by shared challenges from cultural shifts and atheism.
06:24 🤝 Debates are valuable for sparking interest and encouraging people to investigate topics further rather than immediately deciding based on a single debate.
11:42 📢 Vocal and confrontational voices don't represent the entirety of either side's views; patient dialogue is essential to understanding and progress.
15:41 😅 Careful and limited use of mockery or sharp rhetoric can be effective, but a focus on patient dialogue and substantive arguments is crucial.
18:00 👥 To engage in debates, one should learn the rules, prepare extensively, focus on succinct expression, and acknowledge when the debate format might not be one's strength.
20:17 🥊 When engaging in debates, start with smaller platforms to gain experience and humility, avoiding mismatched debates.
21:12 🙌 Seek counsel and feedback from others to refine your debate skills and identify your strengths and weaknesses.
21:56 💬 Not every conversation needs to be public; private discussions can be valuable for learning and growth.
22:24 📖 Misunderstandings about Sola Scriptura can arise, like assuming the Bible should contain everything Jesus did.
24:14 📚 Don't oversimplify theological positions; complex topics require nuanced understanding and careful engagement.
27:30 🕊️ Find your identity in the core of your faith rather than peripheral beliefs, which reduces emotional loyalty to non-central issues.
29:38 🌟 It's okay to lean towards a belief that resonates with you, even if you're not fully certain, and let that journey bring you closer to truth.
34:13 📖 Writing books on complex topics evolves with experience; refine arguments and approach based on ongoing engagement and learning.
37:26 📚 Present traditional arguments for God's existence within a narrative framework that addresses both intellectual and emotional dimensions.
39:02 🌍 Focus on cultural apologetics that addresses contemporary despair, loneliness, lack of transcendence, and spiritual restlessness.
39:59 🌄 Cultural shifts have led to a reconsideration of atheism, with figures like Jordan Peterson contributing to discussions about meaning and spirituality.
40:54 🎵 Music Argument: Music conveys transcendence and meaning in a non-representational manner, which is hard to explain in a naturalistic worldview.
43:25 🌍 Changing Apologetics Landscape: Apologetics needs to address cultural and moral dynamics, as many people are leaving the church due to various concerns.
46:56 🌈 Moral Argument: Atheism struggles to ground specific moral values like human dignity and equality, which are difficult to explain without a transcendent foundation.
53:02 🎶 Music and Meaning: Music conveys meaning and transcendence, and the Christian worldview provides a better explanation for its significance compared to naturalistic explanations.
57:52 🔑 Addressing Jehovah's Witnesses: Engaging in Biblical exegesis might not be the most effective approach. Focus on compelling arguments that challenge their worldview.
01:03:43 🤔 Questioning beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses and their authority.
01:04:09 🤨 Discussing skepticism towards the authority of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.
01:04:37 🧐 Raising doubts about the legitimacy and credibility of the Watchtower's authority.
01:06:02 😕 Exploring the challenge of animal suffering in the context of the problem of evil.
01:07:50 🤔 Examining the possibility of animal consciousness and suffering in relation to theology.
01:08:17 🤔 Addressing the challenge of animal suffering and evil in a theological framework.
01:12:32 😄 Reflecting on personal experiences of encountering God's existence.
01:14:23 🤨 Analyzing the nature of possibilities and their implications.
01:15:10 😅 Exploring humorous scenarios and philosophical "what if" questions.
01:20:22 🤯 Discussing divine simplicity, its importance, and historical context.
01:23:18 🤷 Approaching conversations with individuals who are indifferent or bored by the topic of God's existence.
01:24:25 🧘♂️ The discussion covers the contention between belief in God and science, often fueled by celebrity atheistic scientists, but many faithful scientists hold religious beliefs.
01:25:19 🌄 Overly literalistic readings of scripture can lead to misunderstandings, but belief in God and science isn't mutually exclusive; many scientists believe in God, especially in fundamental fields like biology and physics.
01:26:42 🌋 A child's analogy: Explaining God's existence to a child is like explaining life after the womb; it's challenging to conceive what's beyond one's limited view, highlighting the limits of human understanding.
01:30:10 🚶♂️ Doubts in faith are healthy and analogous to having antibodies in the body; having some doubts challenges faith and helps it grow stronger over time.
01:33:00 🧐 Skepticism of the "stoned ape theory," suggesting biblical visions were influenced by natural psychedelics. Arguments like the trilemma and the depth of Christ's teachings counter this perspective.
01:35:12 🌌 Belief in God gives life ultimate meaning; in a theistic worldview, everything matters, and every moment is filled with purpose, contributing to a greater drama unfolding towards eternity.
01:38:45 💡 Engaging in meaningful interactions and relationships is inspired by faith in God, emphasizing the significance of loving and caring for others.
01:41:02 🛤️ Gavin Ortlund will take a personal sabbatical to focus on family and reflection, while Trent Horn plans to continue engaging in debates, book projects, and addressing atheist arguments.
Galvin you are an amazing brother. Im so humbled and my love for you is endless. I'm Catholic but I am so thankful for you! I love you and have the same Jesus and I believe we will be in heaven together if I endure to the end. You are amazing GO!
Thanks for asking my question, Matt, and thanks for answering, Trent and Gavin! I'm blessed.
How am I to know what the religious Truth is when opposed debaters are decisively convincing? Considering I am not a brilliant historian and theologian, I am very glad that I am Catholic and have a Church with authority from Christ. If I didn't have that I would likely be indifferent to Truth and tend to define it as whatever I am comfortable with.
Really like the debate and this follow-up discussion! Three great guys!!
Oh, I didn't know this was a follow up ! Cool, something to watch tomorrow....
Gavin is Catholics' most favorite protestant! Come home with us to the Catholic church Gavin.
His YT videos are mostly to disprove all Catholic teachings, this is dangerous for the soul of anyone who is not grounded in their Catholic faith....It's like the American Protestants that goes to Catholic countries (in Asia and Africa) trying to convert them into Protestantism.
Their pews are thinning and fragmenting in the US and they look out to other countries to survive.
He is at home.
After the warning or death which ever comes 1st he will come home.
The FULLNESS!!
Yes the fullness of faith will come , God's time 🙏
Really excited about Gavins plans for engaging with modernity and secularism's affects on the culture
Gavin Ortlund is wonderful.
How is the papacy true since autocephalous churches existed and were recognized at the council of Ephesus and reaffirmed at the council of trullo?
For Trent to imply that theópneustos means "life giving" instead of "God breathed", thereby nullifying the very root of the word, is incredible! Something like a man drowning in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean in the middle of a storm grabbing at a floating plastic straw. Unbelievable!!
I applaud these gentlemen who do believe in God. And weirdly, there are more men now being converted, especially to Catholicism especially being drawn to the Traditional Latin Mass even if they don't speak Latin, yet are being deeply touched by it. Praise God! Now praying for more women conversion. 🙏
That’s so true! I was in the new age and when God called me back home I was a lukewarm kinda still only culturally catholic. On a trip to visit my sister in the south, she knew I was back in my faith so told me there was a Catholic Church 3 minutes away …. On two Sunday I walked into a Latin mass and a very reverent novus ordo .. the Latin mass …. Wow 🥲 it stole my heart and I realized Jesus is truly present in the Eucharist.
Latin mass changed me & it’s just such a blessing
"$70,000 for their cat's third kidney" lol
Loves this long discussion format.
Respect to all these guys. From a Protestant pastor.
“Rekindling the Reformation”
youtube
Gavin is the most charitable Protestant apologist. I am a Catholic who can listen to him because he is welcoming but firm on his beliefs. You really are the opposite of James White. You are his improvement, i.e. a new and superior James White of the Reformed tradition.
This episode mentions a book by G. Ortlund, in which he develops the theme of music in his apologetics: what is this book?
My bedtime is 9:00 PM, ended up sleeping past 1:00AM because I stumble to this. I don't regret it at all; I'm actually feel bless I did.
2nd degree ATA black belt Catholic here.
First. Can't wait for my prize.
Doing the right thing is its own reward, lol XD
🥇 I'm sorry I'm late
A beautiful, respectful and inspiring meeting!
Good convo. Trent appears to have a little ‘stache started and if you just give him a brief look and add a full ‘stache, I think he could be Miles Teller’s brother! Trent could be in Top Gun III, call sign Black Swan or something…he brings up black swans I believe in some of his debates…😂😂😂
1:09:02 Wouldn't we have to affirm the fall affected nature--in Genesis 1, God gave all of the animals greens to eat, so, in Isaiah's prophecy, when it refers to the lion eating straw as the ox, it would just be a reversion to its original diet. One would think biological changes would have to occur, since lions seem to be outfitted for the diet they are known to eat during this age.
1:38:18 "Stoned ape theory" : isn't this the theory that humans, among the apes, came to be humans by reason of using hallucinogens?
Watch the next video with Inspiring Philosophy and he will answer your comments on Genesis 1-11.
Ortlund and Pints with Aquinas are some of my favorite channels on RUclips.
This is what lawyers do. They argue and fight in the court. Once out, have drink together.
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My dad was in debate club in high school. I was trained well! He's a retired lawyer! Well loved in our community, helped a lot of people
Absolutely love where this conversation went!
_The truth is not relative, but we are all very finite._
What a beautiful turn of phrase!
LOVE--I watched the debate last evening and commented on it afterward. Since then, my heart and mind have been overwhelmed by 1 Corinthians, chapters 1-13. Paul wrote "to the church of God that is in Corinth, to you who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be holy, with all those everywhere who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours." (1 Cor. 1:2) Then, he wrote these words that cut to my heart in the context of last evening's debate, "I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose." (1 Cor. 1:10) He then chastises them for their factions (and us for ours), pointing them to Christ Crucified, the Field and Temple of God, Participation in the Body and Blood of Christ, the One Body of Christ in One Spirit, all held together by the LOVE that never gives up and never fails (1 Cor. chapters 1, 3, 10-11, 12, and 13). Paul URGES us to unite in Christ Jesus and the LOVE that never gives up--Cruciform Love Even of Enemies; not to unite in HUMAN WISDOM and arguments of and about infallible authority (1 Cor. chapter 2). Woe to us, if we continue to work for the destruction of the Temple of God through our human factions/divisions, instead of striving for unity in the Crucified Jesus and His LOVE that never gives up. As Paul wrote, "Do you not know that you (plural "you" in Greek) are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for the temple of God, which you (again, plural "you" in Greek) are, is holy." (1 Cor. 3:16-17). Perhaps we're called to be under the same roof as ONE FAMILY, praying the OUR FATHER, eating the same COMMUNION, and imitating God in Christ Jesus the best we can (Eph. 5:1-2), instead of worshipping and living under separate roofs (different denominations). I am not naive to the historical and doctrinal issues involved here, but I do not see how we can go on as we have for centuries with a clear conscience. We MUST unite around the Crucified Jesus and His Love! (For full disclosure, in my post last evening and reply this morning, I recited the same old and tired infallibility for unity argument. I now repent of that in the LIGHT of 1 Cor. chapters 1-13.) Jesus, please keep praying for us! John 17:20-23
I wish we were all United 😭
I'm praying for a good catholic apologist to go one Joe Rogan. Personally I think he's the most influential anticatholic out there. He probably doesn't even mean to have that title but everytime he talks about religion with a negative connotation he's talking about the RCC. So.eo e like Trent who's into jujitsu or jimmy who's into science and out of the box thinking. My dream podcast.
I haven't seen one
I think it has to do with some experiences he had when he was younger. A random man off the street almost abused him but he escaped. So he's probably bought into the stereotype of the Church in that respect and so is against it. Then there is the view of history he gets from people like Graham Hancock. Good in a way because it points out the intellectual hubris of the mainstream scientific community. But bad because Graham is a classical liberal and very anticatholic. That little rant he had a few months ago about the Mayans was both incorrect and biased against the Church.
@RJ-bq5mr yeah I know exactly what you're talking about. My buddy at work listens to the podcast at work... usually pretty interesting but his anticatholic rants make my head spin. I pray for a good apologist to go on there and set the record straight. He has such a large audience and those stereotypes are getting in the way of our true mission
@@timboslice980 yep, antiCatholicism is the last acceptable form of bigotry. And a lot of it is based on historical inaccuracy.
42:48-44:39 reminds me of Charles Taylor's book "A Secular Age" in which it is not belief itself but the cultural conditions of belief that characterize secularity. Great insights from Gavin there.
I'm learning more about catholicism. I'd really like to hear from a grounded Catholic like Trent or Matt on the story of the thief on the cross and context of Jesus saying he or God the father seeing the thief in paradise that day. I only have a protestant understanding. I would love to know how the eucharist or , like how salvation works in that regard. As far as I understand, which I could be wrong, is that the eucharist or baptism is necessary for salvation. So it made me curious about the thief on the cross. Or if anyone is able to help me better understand❤️🙏 thank you to anyone that can help. I truly have a genuine desire and have grown to admire the Catholic faith after learning more about it for myself. Also, to add to my question, when God talks about a day being like 1k years, and 1k years being like a day, does that apply to that day of the thief going to paradise. Also, paradise would be Abraham's Bossom right? Oh, which them brought another question just now. Do people go straight to purgatory after death? I know there isn't a chasm in hell anymore right ? That separates God's children and unbelievers before Christ died and rose . I guess I would like to know what paradise is from a Catholic point of view. I really appreciate it❤️❤️ much love!!
Hi @Rachel Still - I'm not a Trent or Matt ... but just to give you something from an ordinary Catholic's perspective ....
The Thief on the Cross story confirms that those who have faith in God and who desire to repent and be with Him in Heaven will be saved. The Catholic belief is that Jesus was sent to Redeem mankind. Through Grace from God that He gives us Faith. When creating us, God so loved us that He gave us free will - He did not bound us to love Him and do His will, but He wants us to freely choose to believe in Him and honour/ worship Him and do His will while we are on earth.
Of course, we sin and don't always do what God asks of us. But in His kindness, God will forgive us if we confess our sins and ask for forgiveness. Provided we die in a "state of Grace" - i.e. not separated from God - then we we share His eternal glory in Heaven. The "state of Grace" is that we have rejected God on a grave matter that we fully understand and are not repentant of - ie we chose to be separated from God. God has also given us the Sacraments to help us in our journey on earth to follow Him and do His will. The Sacraments are an outward sign of Gods grace (gift) to us.
Through normal life, a Catholic Christian is helped follow Jesus through a living Faith that not only believes in God, but acts out that faith as taught to us when Jesus was on earth (Love one another as I have loved you). Normally Catholic Christians will be baptised, receive the Eucharist, attend Reconciliation and be Confirmed. They receive the sacrament of Marriage or Holy orders and possibly Anointing of the Sick. They pray privately, attend Mass, read the Bible and act on their Faith by doing works of charity and giving alms etc as best they can as taught by Jesus. However, these are the "normal means" of receiving grace and getting to heaven.
Jesus can do "super-normal" things - such as curing people, raising them from the dead etc. So when Jesus said to the Thief on the Cross that he would be with Him in paradise - then that is God's will. Jesus told us not to judge - so we cannot judge what will happen to anyone - whether they are Catholics or not. It is Jesus that will judge us all when we die on this earth. So we cannot say how Jesus will judge someone who is not baptised, or does not receive the sacraments etc etc. That is for Jesus to decide.
Your second query on Purgatory is that Purgatory is a process of cleaning the Sole on the way to Heaven. Is it an instant or a long time and what does it entail has been speculated on for centuries. We just don't know! You can search for more detail on the Biblical references to Purgatory on sites like CatholicAnswers.dot comm - but Catholics believe that nothing unclean shall enter Heaven - and Purgatory "purges" the affects of sin. We believe that there is temporal punishment due to sin, that is simply the debt of satisfaction which I owe to God for our sins even after the sins themselves have been forgiven. It it a matter of "repairing the damage".
I don't understand your comment on "I know there isn't a chasm in hell anymore right ? " as Catholics do believe there is Hell and separation from God in eternity - so I cannot comment.
Hopefully that answers your queries .... on my simple level :)
@@pboyle3723 thank you for your thoughtful reply. I really appreciate it❤️ I know that took time to write. In regards to the chasm. I was trying to say that before Jesus died, saved people would go to Abraham's Bossom(one side of hell that is separated by a chasm from unsaved) at least this was something I learned.
@@pboyle3723 also, is purgatory something that God wills for only certain people ? Thanks again🙂😉
@@Jesusgirl00 Ah - I understand now Rachel. Yes ... the belief is that people go to Prugatory after death. Logically it would be after Judgement, as the person's soul is on it's way to Heaven - but that is me putting my earthly logic to it 😊
@@pboyle3723 thank you for getting back to me🙂🙏
Please don't assume your views know who these people are. Sometimes you introduce them and sometimes you don't. I am very familiar with Trent, but don't know Gavin or his background. I didn't finish this discussion yet but would have liked to come into it knowing the players.
Watch the debate 🤷♂️
Beautiful. One of the best conversations so far.
I'm gunna get Ortlund's book. 😎
This was a wonderful conversation.
I wish I could have stayed for more convos like this! God bless y’all and the PWA ministry
I think atheism inevitably leads to nihilism. To say, "Life can still be meaningful without God, it just has whatever meaning I choose to give it" falls apart in the face of the belief that underlying it all, life is fundamentally meaningless and pointless. But God makes everything meaningful, purposeful and significant in an absolute and eternal sense. Every single thing that exists takes on meaning within this view. The entire world is filled with God's grace, every moment, every experience, every blade of grass and grain of sand.
loved that conversation so much!
I enjoy listening to all of you. TY to all of you to trust God and your belief in Him to have real conversations with someone from the other side. Comment for algorithm.
I was an atheist who came back into faith & I was really struggling to decide which way is the right way Protestant or Catholic. It caused me a lot of distress & I wanted to do the right thing. I studied arguments of both sides and read about it. In the end I asked Jesus to give me an answer in my dream. I rarely dream and I never remember my dreams. In 2 days after my prayer (when I actually forgot I prayed about it) I dreamed a dream that contained an answer to my question (and I do remember that one 😁). Pray to our Lord and do your best. ❤️
Read the writing of the Apostles Fathers.
This is why Lucifer rebelled against God.
ruclips.net/video/r8I8DDfewMU/видео.html
Well, what was the answer?!
@@nickhoffman4039 Why do you seek to know what the right answer was? Do you think there is a right answer between the two? There isn't
@@nickhoffman4039 Why? Because we both believe in Jesus Christ. He is our foundation
Not everyone can afford covenant eyes, I don't live in the US or any western country and my salary is just not enough. I read the easypeasy method, and prayed the rosary and it worked so far.
I was not expecting Trent's impersonation of JP to be so accurate
I'm neither Catholic nor an avowed Protestant for the time being, but I deeply appreciated the debate and this content as well. Amazing stuff.
This was wonderful
Gavin looks a lot like Father Cappadanno!
Like an after-fight commentary in MMA!
Great point Matt about conflicting views we have with other Christians and we know they aren’t stupid. Totally get that. My grandfather is highly intelligent was a Senior Chief in the military and is a devout Baptist. We obviously disagree on serious matters of faith. I think for him he grew up in it, his father was a Methodist preacher and become Baptist and dragged my grandfather along. It’s all he’s knows and it’s his identity. I don’t think he could change that if he tried. It’s belief overriding reasons and I think the good Lord will settle it for us when we die. Can do the whole we told you so in heaven
One of these gentlemen need to write a book on why the atheist worldview is such a dark and horrible place. There are so many out there who default to the atheist position because it’s easy and trendy, and haven’t taken the time to think atheism’s consequences through. No more than 100 pages, hard hitting that you can read in a day and give to your kids.
Gavin's book "Why God makes sense in a world that doesn't " is really close to that =)
Any thoughts on The Immortality Key: The Secret History of the Religion with No Name Book by Brian C. Muraresku? In this book acheo-botanical evidence shows the wine consumed by early Christians containing psychedelic plants. It also makes reference of psychedelic potions saved in Vatican archives.
At the 9 minute mark, Matt asks Gavin how the debate between Protestants and Catholics has evolved.
From my perspective, I think Catholics have seized most of the intellectual territory in this debate. A lot of the arguments that Luther, Calvin and Zwingli introduced have either been entirely abandoned, or modified to the point of having almost no resemblance to what was originally asserted.
This has in a way pushed Protestants into an intellectual corner so to speak. Protestants have to become increasingly innovative in their arguments in order for Protestantism to be true. This is in part because Catholics have covered so much ground in voluminous works of almost unfathomable proportion that classical Protestant rhetoric is no longer viable.
The challenge has now become almost insurmountable because the collective mind of the Church, unified in dogma, doctrine and authority will always be able to have the intellectual edge in a debate against an isolated mind who has been pushed into increasingly deeper waters with allies who can’t even agree on where and why they disagree with Catholics.
Because Gavin is a single isolated mind in dialogue with a few other isolated minds, the blind spots in his arguments are not immediately clear to him. He has to find new ways to push back against this mountain of Catholic rhetoric lodged against him in order for his affection towards classical protestant doctrine to be intellectually vindicated.
When territory is being lost and you are in retreat and on the defensive, you start to become increasingly desperate and irrational; in denial of what seems to be smacking you right in the middle of your face.
Gavin’s arguments have that flavour. He is a very intelligent man, but he is just one person in possession of one finite mind, and it is impossible to know everything and get everything right.
I pray that one day God will give him the grace to abandon what he wants to be true and see what is actually true.
I was surprised that Trent didn’t bring up the facts that copying the Bible was a tedious endeavor and very few scriptures were available. Also the illiteracy rate was high for centuries so most couldn’t read the Bible anyways. Then the added problem of translation into different languages! I apologize if missed it. Nevertheless most people for centuries “heard” the scriptures at liturgical gatherings they didn’t/couldn’t read the scriptures! So Sola Scriptura was not tenable even from a practical point of view!
Good way to control the narrative!
I would struggle with this mindset because you said they still heard the scriptures. So they could have applied it to their lives. Many protestants dont read the Bible everyday but recieve the word like that. Just a thought
Yes people for 1900 years had a low life expectancy and were illiterate. All they had to go on was faith, memorizing hymns and prayers like the Our Father and the Nicene Creed and the sacraments. Especially. The Eucharist. Yet Protestants are so condemning of Catholic history. Thry would not be here at all if it wasn't for Catholics defending Christendom from invading Muslims. They hate to look at their own vile 500 year history of slavery and colonization.
Sola Scriptura doesn't mean everyone has to personally read the scriptures. That would be untenable even when Sola Scriptura was first formulated. It is only a principle on which the Church should define doctrine. (i.e. Only those teachings contained in the Scripture are infallible and absolute.)
Popular "biblicism" is way younger than Sola Scriptura, and is mainly a result of evangelicalism and pietism which stresses personal faith and activism.
We're not so different you and I
Matt’s concern about disagreement with peers, or even people smarter than you, is really incisive. There’s actually a whole philosophical literature about the epistemology of disagreement concerning this problem, and surprise- philosophers disagree about what to do about disagreement! It’s a fascinating literature that’s still sort of in its infancy relative to other philosophical problems. Lara Buchak is a great Catholic resource involved in this debate about faith, rationally, and disagreement.
Fabulous, especially following the debate. I wish there were more of these "on the same page" conversations. Thanks.
Hi Matt, really appreciate you encouraging people to get covenant eyes to help with porn addictions.
Can I recommend you also encourage people praying more, especially the Holy Rosary everyday,the whole 4 mysteries if possible,(which it is!), daily as prayer and fasting are the most effective ways to break addictions which are spiritual problems! Haven’t watch porn sin I started praying the whole rosary everyday!
Praise Jesus and Mary!
Also being "loving" is not tickling peoples ears, making them hear what they want to hear, No, being loving is being honest.
Love without justice is empty sentimentality