I watched this because I have a son who is very Catholic and a son who has been working in SE Asia translating the Bible into their language; he is very Protestant. Interesting discussion. I thank you both.
I had been waiting for this crossover a long time since you both, in your own ways, were tying protestantism into the larger family of Christendom and were doing so in loving, unifying, irenic ways. Thank you for both of your ministries.
What did you think about the “10 Catholics and a button” section. I honestly think a motorcycle Majority of Catholics would press the button off it simply meant the practice of Protestantism was replaced by Catholicism. Not just one out of 10 😅 Though the way it was actually talked about was as if we had a button to wipe out Protestant Christian’s😅 as a group of penne rather than an ideology.
That point made around 24/25 mins by Matt was a really thoughtful one. My grandad was Catholic but he never held anything against me for being Protestant. I got to pray for him as he died. I’ll see him again. Our hope was in Christ, not the institutions.
That's nice. My best friend is catholic, I'm Protestant. We're getting along great. Met each other while studying for a master in religious studies. We sometimes joke about both becoming eastern orthodox. If only there wasn't so much nastiness between the denominations online sometimes. I blame it on the faults of online communication.
@@EricAlHarblike I said, it was a joke. But in the end, all who believe in Christ and that he died for our sins are Christians. It's not that complicated.
I love the honesty of this conversation! I find it so refreshing and I love the way you can ask such good questions like this even though I disagree with you. I love being able to disagree with you and still feel so inspired by the honesty and clarity. Thank you!
Oh! My! I just got a recommendation from this channel and it's one of my favourite Protestant apologists, Gavin Ortlund. Just subscribed. God bless you ✝️🙏❤️
2 of my absolute favorite Christian podcasters/RUclipsrs in one conversation-this was a must-watch for me and didn’t disappoint. I love the way Matt isn’t afraid to ask very short, pointed questions at times that got Gavin expanding on certain ideas. Thank you both for the work you’re doing and the conversations you’re facilitating throughout the church (& beyond).
As a Catholic who enjoys your work, Im going to apologize for my more enthusiastic brothers and sisters who seem to follow Gavin around here on RUclips.
As a happy Protestant who is comfortable learning about Catholicism, can you recommend any Catholic channels who might have a similar tone or approach towards Protestants?
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Channels such as yours, sure help bridge the gap between denominations. Which begs the question : what if the internet had existed... back then ? ☺ Maybe it's the *lack* of flow of information between parishes that led to tensions and the inevitable break-up. For instance, being a westerner, i knew very little about Eastern Orthodoxy, until social media existed, and people started talking to Orthodox priests.
Each time gavin says accretion I say a rosary ;) But jokes aside thisnwas a phenomenal conversation that keeps focus on being charitable to each other. This definitely made a subscriber of me.
Not you Fundies. My experience is you want a confrontation which if we went bad, You could say look how evil that Catholic is Well I am a Vietnam veteran and Law Enforcement trained with a degree in criminal justice who has worked in corrections, I have had to just walk away from people like you .
If I had the opportunity to ask Gavin a question, it would be whether any of his positions/beliefs have shifted to any degree in course of his conversations with Catholics and Orthodox. And if so, in what ways?
First time viewer. I read your channel description. I also grew up evangelical, fell away completely for several years, then God rescued me again in my late 20s. At 46, I feel much safer and at peace and on track with God without institutional church. Been there, done that. Church is dysfunctional and backwards. I choose to love them from a distance. Everything God taught me is the opposite of what church taught me. 10 years ago, God found me an awesome wife, who He also rescued from church. We read the bible and pray together. Anyway, great channel. Stay mindful of God’s ultimate purpose. All the best!
Excellent discussion. This is like my version of a superhero crossover; my two favorite Christian RUclipsrs in the same video having a substantive conversation about a very important and relevant topic! I've learned a lot from both of you over the years, and from other Christian voices who agree with you on how to approach these sorts of things. God has used you to help me mature a lot, even as my local church is asking more of me. You are helping to equip me to serve the Lord and my church. (We're a non-denominational Reformed-leaning church, trying to get more rooted in solid doctrine and history and practice while still navigating a very multicultural and fast-changing culture). May the Lord bless you and keep you! P.S. I also highly respect Mike Winger; would be awesome to see either or both of you have a conversation with him about anything close to your hearts.
As a Catholic who has family who have clear gifts to see the language and Christian message in artwork, and other friends who have gifts/struggles with spiritual warfare your videos exploring Eastern Churches have been a blessing helping them in their unique struggles and better understanding various orthodox and eastern rite strengths in these areas of life in a way our western sanitized worldview doesnt have strong resources to fill their greatest needs. To hear people speak for themselves and show who they are, not who outsiders say they are is truly a good way.
I'm RC and I love you guys. Gavin alludes to this when he says that Protestants need to engage more deeply with their own intellectual tradition and with Church history. I agree. It seems as if there are two Protestantisms--there is the confessional versions and then there is the Baptist-Fundamentalist stream which spawned the Evan-jellifish/mega church movement who have defacto added a 6th Sola to their creed--"sola smoke machine". I can now see how Confessional Protestants can at least make a case for being a reformed version of what preceded it. It was Matt's interview with Lutheran Pastor Weedon that first made me question whether there is a serious case to be made for Protestantism. It actually gave me serious pause and if Pope Francis keeps going the way he is then I might have to make a serious decision in the future. For the latter, whilst I respect many of the people within them, and I acknowledge that there are many fine Christians within them, the Mega-Church stream of Protestantism when considered on its own merits is, frankly, a joke and ludicrous. It is not only cut off from the First Millenium, but is cut off from all expressions of Christianity prior to about 50 years ago. (If it a new work of the Holy Ghost to save Christianity, then.. well let's say that the results so far are not promising...) Call this movement what it is--not reformed but Restorationism where it rubs shoulders with the likes of JWs and 7th Day Adventists. By being a Protestant, even a well read one who values his church's tradition and sacramentality we you two are, by signing up without clearly separating yourself from these well meaning but seriously bizarre folks, you is sort of saying "I'm with stupid" is it not?
Wow, I have watched your dialogues with Eastern Orthodox/Catholics and am equally if not more impressed by your ability to hold the same challenging but charitable frame with someone closer to your views. I have not seen a more gifted interviewer in my life.
Another fantastic video in which both of you show a genuine heart for Christ and a real yearning for reconciliation between different expressions of faith without talking down about any other denominations, but also without downplaying the very real barriers to that which exist. Great video as always, Matt.
I love listening to smart people who aren't talking down to others or trying to show off how smart they are. You both seem like you genuinely care about others and demonstrate the love of Christ more than anything. It really calms the soul and keeps conversations civil. I hope to emulate that in my own life.
As a Catholic who has followed both of you periodically through my conversion experience. “Sincere and intelligent people can come to different conclusions” Gavin said this, and on matters of opinion this holds merit, like ketchup or mustard for a hotdog. However, when speaking of the most fundamental truths of cosmic and eternal importance , if 2 conclusions are reached, at most, one of them is correct, and possibly both are wrong. If truth is objective, and Jesus is the truth, then there is an objective way to behave accordingly to those facts. And much like on an individual level, when a truth is reached it sometimes isn’t grasped in it’s entirety from the onset and needs time to develop, that’s not adding on nonsense, rather, it’s flushing out the depths of the truth and all the accompanying necessary truths in order to have a cohesive world view. That being said, I’m not typing this from anger, just another perspective I’m sure you’ve heard a thousand times.
Council of Ephesus “Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome], said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’” (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).
Great discussion from probably my two favorite RUclipsrs! I will continue to have hope for unity in the church. Of course we will have that in the life to come, but we should strive toward it in this life as well. Unfortunately, the political candidate you're talking about around 35 minutes in would just get destroyed by both sides. Like you say, that is the way the world works, and the Bible tells us that. As Christians, we should strive to rise above that.
When Dr. Ortlund says that the strength of Protestantism is in not restricting the Church to an institution, I'm not sure what he means by that. The original reformers and especially the Anglicans both where very concerned with the visible Church. He seems to be representing a more reformed credobaptist kind of view then a strictly historical Protestant one. Which is fine, but I wish he where more clear about what he meant by "institution."
Even though Anglicans and other reformers were concerned with the institutional church they didn't see their particular institution as the one and only church but still viewed other believers outside their institution as still being genuine Christians. I believe this is what Dr. Ortlund is referring too.
The Lutherans wrote to the Greeks, hoping both to find in them an ally against Rome, and also to bring about a 'reformation' in the thinking of the Eastern Churches based on the Lutheran view of what was accurate doctrine. Several letters were exchanged in which it became clear that the Protestants were more interested in changing the Orthodox than learning from them. This seems to me to be a constant danger whenever engaging in anything with Protestants. The Lutherans presented a copy of the Augsburg Confession to the Patriarch, and in due course he responded with a point by point consideration from the Orthodox point of view. It seems to me that this is a very important witness to the Orthodox opinion of Protestantism. The most important reply was sent in 1579. Patriarch Jeremias responded, and we must remember that he had carefully considered the documents sent to him by the Lutheran Protestants, and after considering them and comparing them to the Orthodox Faith he says: "Therefore, brethren, let us stand on the rock of faith and on the tradition of the Church, and not remove the boundaries which our Holy Fathers have set. Thus, we will not give the opportunity to those who wish to innovate and destroy the edifice of the holy, catholic and apostolic Church of God. For if permission is granted to everyone who wants it, little by little the whole body of the Church will be destroyed." and "Let us accept, then, the tradition of the Church with a sincere heart and not a multitude of rationalizations. For God created man to be [morally] upright; instead they [humans] sought after diverse ways of rationalizing. Let us not allow ourselves to learn a new kind of faith which is condemned by the tradition of the Holy Fathers. For the Divine Apostle says, "if anyone is preaching to you a Gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed" [Gal 1:9]." Patriarch Jeremias was very clear, and his three letters are available to be studied in detail. The very foundation of Protestantism was a deviation from the Orthodox Truth. He did not speak unkindly to those who wrote to him. He did not lack love towards them. But he was insistent. "We must not allow a New Gospel to be preached, and we must not allow the Orthodox Tradition to be corrupted." In the centuries since this correspondence the Protestant movement has divided and become even more distant from the Orthodox Faith. We may speak with the same loving charity as Patriarch Jeremias did of those who hold these false beliefs. But we must also stand with him in the defence of the Orthodox Faith which is contrary to that of Protestantism in all its forms. "We will not give the opportunity to those who wish to innovate and destroy the edifice of the holy, catholic and apostolic Church of God."
Has the Protestant movement divided and become more distant from Orthodoxy over the following centuries? From my perspective (as a Protestant) it's rather the opposite - after the first few decades of the Reformation, the general movement of Protestant history has been one of gradually drawing closer together. Not in governance - we consciously reject the idea of anyone except God having authority over the whole church. But in terms of friendship and mutual recognition of different denominations as part of the body of Christ. Today, we're at the point where most Protestant churches are in communion with one another and are even willing to offer communion to Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians who wanted it. Changing denomination is often as much about what churches are around you and what style of worship you prefer as about disagreements in theology. Marriages between people of different denominations is common and not usually considered a cause for concern. I'm Baptist, which is about as far away from Orthodoxy as you can get, but I went to an Orthodox service a few years ago with the full approval of my church. In Germany, the origin of the Reformation, almost all the Protestant denominations have formed a federation, with different denominations running the parish churches in different parts of the country. The different denominations contain everything from Lutherans to Calvinists, and have very different theological views on a lot of things, but as far as I can tell they're quite happy to transfer members between one another based on where people live. From an outsider's perspective, it seems quite similar to the way you have different Orthodox Churches based on country (e.g. the Greek Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, etc) which often disagree on points of theology that haven't been agreed by councils but are nonetheless all part of the same church. All in all, then, far from dividing and becoming more incoherent, Protestant Christianity has come together around a common core of beliefs - the same core of beliefs that has been endorsed by all branches of Christianity, and is summarised in the Nicene Creed. While Protestant churches may, and often do, interpret matters beyond that in different ways, they hold to those interpretations loosely, and admit that they may be wrong about them. Though "permission was granted to any who wanted it", as Patriarch Jeremias warned about, the edifice of the Church has not been destroyed in Protestantism. Protestant Christians, even while divided and fighting far more than we should have over "disputable matters" (Romans 14:1) never forgot or moved away from the true gospel which has been taught by all the major branches of the church throughout its history. I see this as a demonstration that the Holy Spirit was guiding Protestant Christianity, just as He was guiding the Orthodox Church. Of course, there are also many heretical Protestant churches around. The Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, who deny the divinity of Christ. But the Church has always had problems with heresies, and those heretical sects are rejected by other Protestants. The only heresy which is a serious problem throughout the Protestant Church at present is the so-called liberal movement, which grew out of the cynical anti-Christian in the West and denies everything supernatural. But that's a problem which is equally bad in the Catholic Church, which shows that holding to tradition doesn't provide a defence against it. If the Orthodox Church has avoided liberalism, I suspect that's more because you spent the last century facing outright persecution under Communism while we were facing apathy and mockery under democracies.
@pi4t651 I really appreciate this perspective. I'm a roman catholic and from "the outside" looking in I did not have that point of view. Even in my local friend circles with a wide array of denominations among us, I do not get a wholistic view of protestant denominations being in communion with one another. We are all still amiable but discussion amongst each other of what the gospel is gets debated often. It surprised me what items become stumbling blocks. Even cross comparing with the nicene creed Asking respectfully, what does being in communion between protestant denominations look like?
@@pi4t651the practice, theology, and liturgy of the Orthodox Church is vastly different from Protestantism. Orthodoxy is lived. There are multiple different services throughout the week to help the faithful grow in their journey. The Eucharist bestows grace on the faithful. It is a whole different way of thinking
@@danfsteeplethere are Protestant churches that do the same things like partake in the Eucharist every service and believe that the true spirit of the Lord is present in it. You’re not too far from Protestant belief really.
Summary of the Video with Timestamps Introduction and Guest Introduction 00:00: Matt introduces himself and his guest, Gavin Ortlund, discussing the challenges of engaging in theological discussions in a click-driven economy. Gavin's Book Overview 03:49: Gavin shares about his book, "What It Means to Be Protestant," emphasizing that Protestantism is a renewal movement within Christianity rather than a rejection of prior traditions. Protestant Aims and Historical Context 07:47: Gavin outlines the aims of the Protestant Reformation, including clarity of the Gospel, prioritization of scripture, and removal of historical accretions. Success and Future of Protestantism 12:04: The discussion shifts to what success would look like for Protestantism in the future, including greater recognition among different Christian groups and a focus on core beliefs. Institutional Structures in Christianity 16:03: Gavin reflects on whether institutional merging among Christian denominations is necessary for unity or if diversity can coexist beneficially. Impact of Protestantism on Missions 19:47: The conversation explores the historical impact of Protestantism on missions and access to scripture, highlighting significant figures like William Carey. Understanding Between Traditions 23:42: Gavin hopes that Catholics reading his book will gain a better understanding of Protestant perspectives without feeling attacked. Navigating Disagreements 27:54: The importance of approaching disagreements with empathy and patience is emphasized, along with the need for constructive dialogue. Political Discourse and Empathy 31:27: Matt discusses the need for empathy in political discourse, suggesting that understanding opposing views can lead to more productive conversations. Conclusion and Book Promotion 39:15: Gavin shares where viewers can find his book and encourages all audiences to engage with its content for better understanding across Christian traditions.
It's always makes me scratch my head how a Protestant can say, "A Protestant carries the Gospel faithfully", but at the same time, have a plethora of interpretations of what the Gospel (Bible) means within all the denominations that call themselves Protestant.
There would be no man-made denominations and Churches that do not belong to the Body of Christ. It always amazes me how a Protestant knows how to correct so called "errors" that happen in the Catholic Church. Definition of a Christian. the name refers to all those who have been anointed through the gift of the Holy Spirit in Baptism, therefore, followers of Christ, and members of the Church established by Christ on the foundation of the apostles in 33 AD. According to Acts 11:26, it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called "Christians".
Matt, you're the only reason I'm not ashamed to call myself a protestant. I would be catholic or orthodox if my life circumstances permitted it (marital issues, mostly)... if I'm ever able to sort those out I may still switch over. I think if all protestants were like you (humble, positive, eager to learn and to appreciate the types of faith that others keep) it would be taken much more seriously by the high churches. I think it's a great example to set, and one that I try to follow.
You would need to confirm a Priest, I think the Eastern Orthodox Church only counts failed sacramental marriages against you. If you weren’t in the Orthodox Church when your marriages ended, then I don’t think they really count against you. Also, I think they allow for a 2nd or 3rd marriage following repentance.
Lawful marriage is forever. If the marriage is deemed unlawful by the [Catholic] Church then the two individuals would be granted a declaration of nullity, and free to marry another. Otherwise each is forever married to one another and only to them until death. Any idea that a civil divorce and/or remarriage to another is okay is actually adultery, as hard as that is to accept.
@@marlam8625 It's not really a matter of me accepting it or not. Whether they'll grant an anullment or not is up to the church. I'll ask them and explain the circumstances and see what they say. It is the primary reason that I'm a protestant currently, though. There's no sense in joining a church where I'll be out of compliance from the get-go, and I'm not not going to lie to them about it or skirt the issue obviously, that would just make a mockery of the whole thing.
@@joshstephens12 I wasn't even religious at the time. I'm vaguely aware that Orthodox (and I think even Byzantine Catholics) are more granular about the circumstances than the Catholic church, and I think my chances of permission are much higher with Orthodox or the Byzantine rite. While I genuinely think both faiths are beautiful in their own rite, I would feel a little weird about picking one over the other just because it's what I 'qualify' for because of my circumstances, but that's not for me to decide at the end of the day, I suppose. I think it's one of those things where I need to just trust God.
@@seranonable of course I don’t know your situation. You maybe in your first marriage- but it is a fact that if you are divorced and seek an annulment to be remarried in the sight of God, the Church tribunal would require info and declare if your first marriage is valid or not. The Catholic Church is not one denomination among many. The keys given to Peter denotes succession and authority. It’s a matter of living the reality of truth by the authority of their decision.
I’ve been learning about the undue influence of Platonic thought in Church History. It helps me to understand that the Church is still in process of purging herself from erroneous doctrine. The Gospel hadn’t been lost, but it has been obfuscated by heterodox understandings of God and creation.
I don’t understand how Gavin can say that Protestantism “was a good step”. It was a rebellion against church authority and ultimately, fundamentally a divorce. It is still dividing families and causing unspeakable strife and pain.
Protestantism was *necessary,* and the bad consequences were to no small degree the result of Roman Catholic institutional intransigence and response to the Reformation.
Rebellion against church authority?? You can’t be serious, people were literally being murdered just because they disagreed with the Pope, and you don’t think there was a problem with that? Imagine if Peter were to come down to earth and see that his so called infallible successors were waging wars and murdering people?
@@danfsteeple I prefer Eastern Orthodox theology to Augustinian theology. However Nicea II is sadly strong evidence to me that ecumenical councils are not infallible.
15:41 good things that would go away without the reformation in the Roman Catholic Church at least is: kids learning Silent Night's origin story, over half of the amazing hymns including Amazing Grace and the musical styles of the St Louis Jesuits and many other musicians of the last 60 years, most Spirituals and Appalachian country church songs , the work being done towards Orthodox churches and Catholic trying to figure out things, the serious work towards healing the Oriental schism, the Jesuits (up to Francis) who saw a necessary role to hold the Pope accountable, Catholic Social teaching, Narnia, Tolkien, Joan of Arc, America as the mixing pot it is, the stengthening of Catholic faith, unique cultures like French Canadian and Louisiana Cajun culture, the French Revolution, The original 13 English colonies. MLK Jr., several Catholic saints who rose above and stood up against corruption including Thomas More, the Roman church taking several steps to recognize more women for their unique gifts as Doctors of the Church.
Why are there hundreds of RC denominations? Why are there over 700 EO denominations? ...The same source that claims tens of thousands of protestant denominations also claims that there are hundreds of catholic denominations. Also, the same source labels clearly apostate groups[cults] as christian. There are many non-catholics who don't believe in sola scriptura and go off the deep end. Lastly, protestants tend to accept other "denominations" as part of the one Church. We don't see disagreement as a unity shattering catastrophe. True unity can withstand a certain degree of disagreement.
I really appreciate both of you and the work you do on your channels. I'm from a Restorationist background, and I'm curious how much either of you have looked into the history of the Restoration movement (largely since the 1830s)
What does Gavin mean by "generosity"? I can be generous to Gavin in showing respect and so forth while also rejecting Protestantism as a valid movement within the Church.
@@rickdockery9620 The implication of Gavin's position is that there can be no unity unless I accept his paradigm as valid. But if I reject it as invalid, suddenly he thinks I'm not being generous. I think it's disingenuous to suggest he is being generous toward RC & EO Christians just because he's nice to them. At the end of the day, he doesn't think those traditions are valid of themselves and that they ought to become Protestant.
@@alypiusloft you’ve Jude described how Rome views me as a Lutheran. Most of my Catholic friends are nice to me, but don’t accept my faith. It’s a stalemate on both sides. We can still be kind and charitable while disagreeing. In Rome’s view, there is no unity outside of Rome. You are under no obligation to accept his views.
@@rickdockery9620 You're right, I'm not under obligation by Ortlund's view. However, the implication of his argument is that both RC and EO Christians would have to change their ecclesiastical views to align with his own to make the Protestant mission a success. He is making an authoritative argument.
A couple of my favorite RUclips theologians. The reformation also influenced governments and form of governments. In Luther's place and time church and state was pronounced church and the reformation played out in the founding form of the United States government.
I resonate with this idea that Protestantism is an unfinished work. I haven’t really thought of it like that before. Detractors will ask “So, did Protestantism succeed? Or did it fail?” But it hasn’t succeeded, nor has it failed. It has weathered some setbacks, but I maintain hope for greater unity and reform in the church without compromising on Christian essentials. What is more, we have full assurance of an eventual perfect unity in our Lord.
@@Mic1904 You mean to say, protestantism is true despite teaching things contrary to one another like some churches teach baptism is necessary for salvation while others teach it is not, correct? In other words, you are saying both baptism is necessary for salvation and baptism is not necessary for salvation are true, correct?
@@Mic1904 Then why did you say no sequitur with respect to my earlier post? You know, protestants don't speak out clearly. They love taking advantage of ambiguous statements and avail the benefit of the doubt. The moment they speak out in no uncertain terms, they get cornered because protestantism is build on lies and deception.
God know, with protestantism we have people using the same Bible contradicting each other on important doctrinal issues and creating division in the form of several different denominations. Did Jesus died for every single person or just for some persons? Can salvation be lost or not? The Lordship salvation controversy and the Hyper grace controversy are serious disagreements on salvation etc.
The only way the reformation couldn't happen is if movable type printing hadn't been invented. It's what let Luther and his compatriots have a lasting effect, unlike the many other pre-reformation movements.
My idea about how we could move forward on the ecumenical journey is tolerance and acceptance of imperfections. If we take a holier than thou stance, we won't get anywhere. Nor, if we get anywhere, we will get perfection. The solution is humility, the acceptance that, although we are firmly convinced of our beliefs, we might still be wrong. The polar opposite of that is arrogance, and I think that it's the sin of arrogance that is pushing us apart every time we argue. We should debate, but we shouldn't argue.
As far as the Magic button question goes, why is the assumption those billion people would cease to be Christian? Every Christian I know personally, regardless of denomination regards themselves as Christian first and foremost and as whatever their denomination is second, even in the cases where they qualify that as something like "I'm a Christian that's why I'm Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant whatever, because I believe that is the true or truest form of Christianity." If Protestantism wasn't an option, I would assume those people who were Christian would still be Christian, no? Like if Orthodoxy didn't exist, idk what I would be, but I would still be a Christian.
Matt's imagery of standing on the mound of bones was really good. It is all to easy for us to bite and devour one another, as Paul warned against. I think Protestants have the best position to be ecumenical because of our more limited "core" beliefs. Which means we need to be more humble and bear with those who have consciences that point them elsewhere.
SPIRITUAL PRIDE is the reason for most impasses between Christian denominations. In most debates, you can cut the tension with a knife- it's that thick. Both of you gentlemen are cordial and calm, while retaining your convictions within Christianity. Where charity and love prevail, there God is ever found. Brought here together by Christ's love; by love are we thus bound. God bless you both and your worthy endeavors to heal the masses by bringing truth and light to the world.
Honest question, What part or protestant denominations is @Dr Gavin Ortlund defending if so many disagree with one another Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Anabaptist, Quakers,Calvinist, Seventh day Adventist, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Anglican, Pentecostale, Amish non denomination ?
Gavin judges “accretions” based off of his interpretation of the scripture but the biggest accretion one could say is the idea of Sola Scriptura itself.
As a Protestant convert to Orthodoxy (over a decade ago), I genuinely appreciate you both. We do, indeed, have some significant disagreements and I believe the Orthodox Church has held faithfully to the Apostolic deposit and so Protestantism has erred. But I don't think that means, because we disagree, that you are dishonest, bad actors or of ill will. It took me a decade before becoming Orthodox to wrestle through all challenges I had with it. I also sincerely hope you both recognize the uncharitable interaction you often get in the comments section, are not a reflection of on-the-ground Orthodoxy in a local parish (i.e. real life). The anonymity and unaccountability allowed by the internet often draws less than ideal representatives of any position. In our case, those people are often either not even fully Orthodox themselves or are so new, they're still wet with the water of Baptism. I was obnoxious and over zealous when I was new to this all - the cage stage as it's sometimes referred to (I'm probably still obnoxious, though hopefully a little less so). I've had the pleasure of visiting at least 2 dozen Orthodox Churches and have never encountered that special breed that seems to thrive on the internet in person. They are the vocal minority. God bless you both!
Uhmm, I think the other way round makes more sense. Afterall the Church had all the time to study Luther's concerns. Instead the Church put a price on his head.
On the important issue of salvation, I got a summary of a Catholic view of salvation and thought that it lined up with most Protestant doctrine: "In summary, salvation in Catholic theology is fundamentally God’s work in us, initiated by His grace and accessed through faith in Jesus Christ. Sanctification and good works are evidence of this grace and faith, not the means by which salvation is earned. This understanding emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, and human response through faith and cooperation with grace reflects the transformative effect of this gift." I'd like to hear from any Catholic believers if it missed anything important. This seems like common ground on which to build.
Had to happen. There was a feeling in the 13th century even that religion was holding back progress. Which in a healthy sense it was. Now there are almost no boundaries for destroying the entire ecosystem.
Two of the most fair and charitable Protestant brothers on one episode.
This Catholic appreciates both of you.
Likewise, Mitchell.
So when gavin said the catholic church took from paganism in the middle ages
Do you concur@@MattWhitmanTMBH
Gavin is dishonest. I have no respect for him
@@Pat.hibuleiregood question 👍🏼
@@justthink8952 to be dishonest is to deliberately lie. I get that you disagree with Gavin, but this is slander and grossly unfair.
Oh man I was just checking out your channel yesterday thinking, "Matt hasnt posted anything in a while." Then BAM you post with Gavin Ortlund!
I watched this because I have a son who is very Catholic and a son who has been working in SE Asia translating the Bible into their language; he is very Protestant. Interesting discussion. I thank you both.
Please think on this. You are truly blessed!
Lovely to hear that you have a family of people who are defined by Christ! Hope you had a great Christmas!
I had been waiting for this crossover a long time since you both, in your own ways, were tying protestantism into the larger family of Christendom and were doing so in loving, unifying, irenic ways. Thank you for both of your ministries.
The collab we did not know we wanted.
Oh, I knew I wanted it, haha. Didn't know it was coming, though! Very good to see.
I knew ;)
Best crossover of all time. Both of you guys completely changed my outlook on Christianity over the past 7 or so years.
Excellent, excellent interview. Loved these questions
have the three of you done a round table discussion? or started a podcast together? ;-)
"Click economy" is a great way to describe the currently landscape.
What did you think about the “10 Catholics and a button” section.
I honestly think a motorcycle
Majority of Catholics would press the button off it simply meant the practice of Protestantism was replaced by Catholicism. Not just one out of 10 😅
Though the way it was actually talked about was as if we had a button to wipe out Protestant Christian’s😅 as a group of penne rather than an ideology.
That point made around 24/25 mins by Matt was a really thoughtful one. My grandad was Catholic but he never held anything against me for being Protestant. I got to pray for him as he died. I’ll see him again. Our hope was in Christ, not the institutions.
Except the Church isn’t an institution. It’s the body of Christ.
@@anthonyhulse1248 yes, so we shouldn’t confuse them
And the Bride… With Acts we get the institution starting with Pentecost.
@@willkantz1957 do we? Then the burden is on you to demonstrate that. Instead we get a ‘development of doctrine’
Maybe even before Pentecost when the Apostles institute a replacement for Judas!?
My two favorite RUclips theological voices collaborating! Amazing :)
This is an Avengers-Level crossover and I’m totally here for it.
My thoughts exactly. Who else should they get to join them next time? I'm thinking Mike Winger.
I only recently discovered Gavin and binged his videos and read two of his books. I was very excited to see this video in my feed this morning!
Love to my protestant brothers ☦️
That's nice. My best friend is catholic, I'm Protestant. We're getting along great. Met each other while studying for a master in religious studies. We sometimes joke about both becoming eastern orthodox.
If only there wasn't so much nastiness between the denominations online sometimes. I blame it on the faults of online communication.
Only a Latin would say something ecumenist like that.
@@EricAlHarblike I said, it was a joke. But in the end, all who believe in Christ and that he died for our sins are Christians. It's not that complicated.
Love you too bro
@@MrSeedi76 yeah I’m Orthodox, even Muslims “claim” they believe in Christ.
I love the honesty of this conversation! I find it so refreshing and I love the way you can ask such good questions like this even though I disagree with you. I love being able to disagree with you and still feel so inspired by the honesty and clarity. Thank you!
I love the idea of a ‘year of jubilee’ to rest arguments. Great video both, really open and refreshing.
Oh! My! I just got a recommendation from this channel and it's one of my favourite Protestant apologists, Gavin Ortlund. Just subscribed. God bless you ✝️🙏❤️
I hope this is Part 1 of many parts, featuring two refreshing voices in the Christian faith - thank you, brothers! 🙏🏼
2 of my absolute favorite Christian podcasters/RUclipsrs in one conversation-this was a must-watch for me and didn’t disappoint.
I love the way Matt isn’t afraid to ask very short, pointed questions at times that got Gavin expanding on certain ideas.
Thank you both for the work you’re doing and the conversations you’re facilitating throughout the church (& beyond).
My two favorite voices in the ecumenical world in one conversation? YES! MORE PLEASE!
As a Catholic who enjoys your work, Im going to apologize for my more enthusiastic brothers and sisters who seem to follow Gavin around here on RUclips.
I appreciate your grace, Andrew.
like you
@@andrewculbreth7302 please explain
DOCTOR Gavin Ortlund poopnPEE AECH DEEE
As a happy Protestant who is comfortable learning about Catholicism, can you recommend any Catholic channels who might have a similar tone or approach towards Protestants?
Matt, you asked SUCH great questions.
Thanks, Michelle. I appreciate that.
@@MattWhitmanTMBH Channels such as yours, sure help bridge the gap between denominations.
Which begs the question : what if the internet had existed... back then ? ☺
Maybe it's the *lack* of flow of information between parishes that led to tensions and the inevitable break-up.
For instance, being a westerner, i knew very little about Eastern Orthodoxy, until social media existed, and people started talking to Orthodox priests.
Been wanting you two to get together for a while. So glad for this video.
As a Catholic, I love this gentle Protestant soul. Keep up the good work.
Awesome job! This was a great, quick summary with all the hints of things to come embedded in the text. I can’t wait to see them all!
WHAT IS THIS! MY 2 FAVORITE MEN ON THE INTERNET UNITE!
Each time gavin says accretion I say a rosary ;)
But jokes aside thisnwas a phenomenal conversation that keeps focus on being charitable to each other. This definitely made a subscriber of me.
I gift you preemptive Like.
Can't wait to hear about this. You always post exceptional and thought-provoking content.
I have already ordered that book, and I'm very excited to read it!
Chris Vitello
Totally agree. Catholics and Protestants can be allies, not enemies, and we can learn from each other.
Not you Fundies. My experience is you want a confrontation which if we went bad, You could say look how evil that Catholic is
Well I am a Vietnam veteran and Law Enforcement trained with a degree in criminal justice who has worked in corrections, I have had to just walk away from people like you .
Thank you both!
I've been hoping for this interview to happen for a while! 🎉
If I had the opportunity to ask Gavin a question, it would be whether any of his positions/beliefs have shifted to any degree in course of his conversations with Catholics and Orthodox. And if so, in what ways?
When I hear trajectory, I always hear David Wood call out 'if the TRAJECTORY CONTINUES!'
Thank you, Matt and Gavin 🌹🔥⭐🔥🌹
First time viewer. I read your channel description. I also grew up evangelical, fell away completely for several years, then God rescued me again in my late 20s. At 46, I feel much safer and at peace and on track with God without institutional church. Been there, done that.
Church is dysfunctional and backwards. I choose to love them from a distance. Everything God taught me is the opposite of what church taught me. 10 years ago, God found me an awesome wife, who He also rescued from church. We read the bible and pray together.
Anyway, great channel. Stay mindful of God’s ultimate purpose. All the best!
Enjoyed this discussion and topic, happy Saint Michael’s Lent to everyone.
I see what you did there. ; )
This is one of the best combination of theological RUclipsrs ever!🙌 Thank you for your humility!!!
7 minutes in and im LOVING this conversation! Great to hear dialogue which is lovingly accurate🔥🔥🔥
Excellent discussion. This is like my version of a superhero crossover; my two favorite Christian RUclipsrs in the same video having a substantive conversation about a very important and relevant topic! I've learned a lot from both of you over the years, and from other Christian voices who agree with you on how to approach these sorts of things. God has used you to help me mature a lot, even as my local church is asking more of me. You are helping to equip me to serve the Lord and my church. (We're a non-denominational Reformed-leaning church, trying to get more rooted in solid doctrine and history and practice while still navigating a very multicultural and fast-changing culture).
May the Lord bless you and keep you!
P.S. I also highly respect Mike Winger; would be awesome to see either or both of you have a conversation with him about anything close to your hearts.
It is always a treat when my favorite two RUclipsrs team up. On a not unrelated note, this has the makings of a blockbuster superhero move.
Thanks for this productive discussion!
As a Catholic who has family who have clear gifts to see the language and Christian message in artwork, and other friends who have gifts/struggles with spiritual warfare your videos exploring Eastern Churches have been a blessing helping them in their unique struggles and better understanding various orthodox and eastern rite strengths in these areas of life in a way our western sanitized worldview doesnt have strong resources to fill their greatest needs. To hear people speak for themselves and show who they are, not who outsiders say they are is truly a good way.
I'm RC and I love you guys. Gavin alludes to this when he says that Protestants need to engage more deeply with their own intellectual tradition and with Church history. I agree. It seems as if there are two Protestantisms--there is the confessional versions and then there is the Baptist-Fundamentalist stream which spawned the Evan-jellifish/mega church movement who have defacto added a 6th Sola to their creed--"sola smoke machine". I can now see how Confessional Protestants can at least make a case for being a reformed version of what preceded it. It was Matt's interview with Lutheran Pastor Weedon that first made me question whether there is a serious case to be made for Protestantism. It actually gave me serious pause and if Pope Francis keeps going the way he is then I might have to make a serious decision in the future.
For the latter, whilst I respect many of the people within them, and I acknowledge that there are many fine Christians within them, the Mega-Church stream of Protestantism when considered on its own merits is, frankly, a joke and ludicrous. It is not only cut off from the First Millenium, but is cut off from all expressions of Christianity prior to about 50 years ago. (If it a new work of the Holy Ghost to save Christianity, then.. well let's say that the results so far are not promising...) Call this movement what it is--not reformed but Restorationism where it rubs shoulders with the likes of JWs and 7th Day Adventists. By being a Protestant, even a well read one who values his church's tradition and sacramentality we you two are, by signing up without clearly separating yourself from these well meaning but seriously bizarre folks, you is sort of saying "I'm with stupid" is it not?
Love this collab! Great interview
wow this interview was eye opening. Thank you matt and Gavin!
Great interview questions Matt!
I praise God for both of you fine gentlemen! Thanks for doing this!
Wow, I have watched your dialogues with Eastern Orthodox/Catholics and am equally if not more impressed by your ability to hold the same challenging but charitable frame with someone closer to your views. I have not seen a more gifted interviewer in my life.
Two of my favorite Christian RUclipsrs!! Love it!
Another fantastic video in which both of you show a genuine heart for Christ and a real yearning for reconciliation between different expressions of faith without talking down about any other denominations, but also without downplaying the very real barriers to that which exist. Great video as always, Matt.
The conversation I've dreamt of!!
I love listening to smart people who aren't talking down to others or trying to show off how smart they are. You both seem like you genuinely care about others and demonstrate the love of Christ more than anything. It really calms the soul and keeps conversations civil. I hope to emulate that in my own life.
This is good stuff. Thanks, guys!
Gavin: I think, I think...........therefore I am protestant
As a Catholic who has followed both of you periodically through my conversion experience.
“Sincere and intelligent people can come to different conclusions” Gavin said this, and on matters of opinion this holds merit, like ketchup or mustard for a hotdog. However, when speaking of the most fundamental truths of cosmic and eternal importance , if 2 conclusions are reached, at most, one of them is correct, and possibly both are wrong. If truth is objective, and Jesus is the truth, then there is an objective way to behave accordingly to those facts. And much like on an individual level, when a truth is reached it sometimes isn’t grasped in it’s entirety from the onset and needs time to develop, that’s not adding on nonsense, rather, it’s flushing out the depths of the truth and all the accompanying necessary truths in order to have a cohesive world view.
That being said, I’m not typing this from anger, just another perspective I’m sure you’ve heard a thousand times.
Council of Ephesus
“Philip, the presbyter and legate of the Apostolic See [Rome], said: ‘There is no doubt, and in fact it has been known in all ages, that the holy and most blessed Peter, prince and head of the apostles, pillar of the faith, and foundation of the Catholic Church, received the keys of the kingdom from our Lord Jesus Christ, the Savior and Redeemer of the human race, and that to him was given the power of loosing and binding sins: who down even to today and forever both lives and judges in his successors’” (Acts of the Council, session 3 [A.D. 431]).
Yeaaaa das rite
He tried to derail the Crucifixion, Jesus called Him Satan, and he denied even knowing Jesus 3 times.
Peter also founded the Sees of Antioch and Alexandra.
@@countryboyred ...and Jesus called hi Satan.
Toe of my favorite at once. So great! Lord bless you both.
Speaking of accretions: historically speaking, wouldn’t Sola Scriptura be one of the biggest?
Great discussion from probably my two favorite RUclipsrs! I will continue to have hope for unity in the church. Of course we will have that in the life to come, but we should strive toward it in this life as well.
Unfortunately, the political candidate you're talking about around 35 minutes in would just get destroyed by both sides. Like you say, that is the way the world works, and the Bible tells us that. As Christians, we should strive to rise above that.
When Dr. Ortlund says that the strength of Protestantism is in not restricting the Church to an institution, I'm not sure what he means by that. The original reformers and especially the Anglicans both where very concerned with the visible Church. He seems to be representing a more reformed credobaptist kind of view then a strictly historical Protestant one. Which is fine, but I wish he where more clear about what he meant by "institution."
Is the idea that the Church is not restricted to an institution an accretion?
@@Adam_Wilde❤
Even though Anglicans and other reformers were concerned with the institutional church they didn't see their particular institution as the one and only church but still viewed other believers outside their institution as still being genuine Christians. I believe this is what Dr. Ortlund is referring too.
@@Steve-wg3cr I am simply pointing out that that reformed view is a new, innovated outlook, which itself is a historical accretion.
Lord, unify your Church in spirit, in truth, and obedience to your will.
The Lutherans wrote to the Greeks, hoping both to find in them an ally against Rome, and also to bring about a 'reformation' in the thinking of the Eastern Churches based on the Lutheran view of what was accurate doctrine. Several letters were exchanged in which it became clear that the Protestants were more interested in changing the Orthodox than learning from them. This seems to me to be a constant danger whenever engaging in anything with Protestants.
The Lutherans presented a copy of the Augsburg Confession to the Patriarch, and in due course he responded with a point by point consideration from the Orthodox point of view. It seems to me that this is a very important witness to the Orthodox opinion of Protestantism. The most important reply was sent in 1579.
Patriarch Jeremias responded, and we must remember that he had carefully considered the documents sent to him by the Lutheran Protestants, and after considering them and comparing them to the Orthodox Faith he says:
"Therefore, brethren, let us stand on the rock of faith and on the tradition of the Church, and not remove the boundaries which our Holy Fathers have set. Thus, we will not give the opportunity to those who wish to innovate and destroy the edifice of the holy, catholic and apostolic Church of God. For if permission is granted to everyone who wants it, little by little the whole body of the Church will be destroyed."
and
"Let us accept, then, the tradition of the Church with a sincere heart and not a multitude of rationalizations. For God created man to be [morally] upright; instead they [humans] sought after diverse ways of rationalizing. Let us not allow ourselves to learn a new kind of faith which is condemned by the tradition of the Holy Fathers. For the Divine Apostle says, "if anyone is preaching to you a Gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed" [Gal 1:9]."
Patriarch Jeremias was very clear, and his three letters are available to be studied in detail. The very foundation of Protestantism was a deviation from the Orthodox Truth. He did not speak unkindly to those who wrote to him. He did not lack love towards them. But he was insistent. "We must not allow a New Gospel to be preached, and we must not allow the Orthodox Tradition to be corrupted."
In the centuries since this correspondence the Protestant movement has divided and become even more distant from the Orthodox Faith. We may speak with the same loving charity as Patriarch Jeremias did of those who hold these false beliefs. But we must also stand with him in the defence of the Orthodox Faith which is contrary to that of Protestantism in all its forms.
"We will not give the opportunity to those who wish to innovate and destroy the edifice of the holy, catholic and apostolic Church of God."
Has the Protestant movement divided and become more distant from Orthodoxy over the following centuries? From my perspective (as a Protestant) it's rather the opposite - after the first few decades of the Reformation, the general movement of Protestant history has been one of gradually drawing closer together. Not in governance - we consciously reject the idea of anyone except God having authority over the whole church. But in terms of friendship and mutual recognition of different denominations as part of the body of Christ. Today, we're at the point where most Protestant churches are in communion with one another and are even willing to offer communion to Roman Catholic and Orthodox Christians who wanted it. Changing denomination is often as much about what churches are around you and what style of worship you prefer as about disagreements in theology. Marriages between people of different denominations is common and not usually considered a cause for concern. I'm Baptist, which is about as far away from Orthodoxy as you can get, but I went to an Orthodox service a few years ago with the full approval of my church.
In Germany, the origin of the Reformation, almost all the Protestant denominations have formed a federation, with different denominations running the parish churches in different parts of the country. The different denominations contain everything from Lutherans to Calvinists, and have very different theological views on a lot of things, but as far as I can tell they're quite happy to transfer members between one another based on where people live. From an outsider's perspective, it seems quite similar to the way you have different Orthodox Churches based on country (e.g. the Greek Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, etc) which often disagree on points of theology that haven't been agreed by councils but are nonetheless all part of the same church.
All in all, then, far from dividing and becoming more incoherent, Protestant Christianity has come together around a common core of beliefs - the same core of beliefs that has been endorsed by all branches of Christianity, and is summarised in the Nicene Creed. While Protestant churches may, and often do, interpret matters beyond that in different ways, they hold to those interpretations loosely, and admit that they may be wrong about them. Though "permission was granted to any who wanted it", as Patriarch Jeremias warned about, the edifice of the Church has not been destroyed in Protestantism. Protestant Christians, even while divided and fighting far more than we should have over "disputable matters" (Romans 14:1) never forgot or moved away from the true gospel which has been taught by all the major branches of the church throughout its history. I see this as a demonstration that the Holy Spirit was guiding Protestant Christianity, just as He was guiding the Orthodox Church.
Of course, there are also many heretical Protestant churches around. The Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, who deny the divinity of Christ. But the Church has always had problems with heresies, and those heretical sects are rejected by other Protestants. The only heresy which is a serious problem throughout the Protestant Church at present is the so-called liberal movement, which grew out of the cynical anti-Christian in the West and denies everything supernatural. But that's a problem which is equally bad in the Catholic Church, which shows that holding to tradition doesn't provide a defence against it. If the Orthodox Church has avoided liberalism, I suspect that's more because you spent the last century facing outright persecution under Communism while we were facing apathy and mockery under democracies.
@pi4t651 I really appreciate this perspective. I'm a roman catholic and from "the outside" looking in I did not have that point of view.
Even in my local friend circles with a wide array of denominations among us, I do not get a wholistic view of protestant denominations being in communion with one another. We are all still amiable but discussion amongst each other of what the gospel is gets debated often. It surprised me what items become stumbling blocks. Even cross comparing with the nicene creed
Asking respectfully, what does being in communion between protestant denominations look like?
@@pi4t651the practice, theology, and liturgy of the Orthodox Church is vastly different from Protestantism. Orthodoxy is lived. There are multiple different services throughout the week to help the faithful grow in their journey. The Eucharist bestows grace on the faithful. It is a whole different way of thinking
@@danfsteeplethere are Protestant churches that do the same things like partake in the Eucharist every service and believe that the true spirit of the Lord is present in it. You’re not too far from Protestant belief really.
@@xaviercopeland2789 I was Protestant my entire life. The same terms may be used but they have different meanings
Summary of the Video with Timestamps
Introduction and Guest Introduction 00:00: Matt introduces himself and his guest, Gavin Ortlund, discussing the challenges of engaging in theological discussions in a click-driven economy.
Gavin's Book Overview 03:49: Gavin shares about his book, "What It Means to Be Protestant," emphasizing that Protestantism is a renewal movement within Christianity rather than a rejection of prior traditions.
Protestant Aims and Historical Context 07:47: Gavin outlines the aims of the Protestant Reformation, including clarity of the Gospel, prioritization of scripture, and removal of historical accretions.
Success and Future of Protestantism 12:04: The discussion shifts to what success would look like for Protestantism in the future, including greater recognition among different Christian groups and a focus on core beliefs.
Institutional Structures in Christianity 16:03: Gavin reflects on whether institutional merging among Christian denominations is necessary for unity or if diversity can coexist beneficially.
Impact of Protestantism on Missions 19:47: The conversation explores the historical impact of Protestantism on missions and access to scripture, highlighting significant figures like William Carey.
Understanding Between Traditions 23:42: Gavin hopes that Catholics reading his book will gain a better understanding of Protestant perspectives without feeling attacked.
Navigating Disagreements 27:54: The importance of approaching disagreements with empathy and patience is emphasized, along with the need for constructive dialogue.
Political Discourse and Empathy 31:27: Matt discusses the need for empathy in political discourse, suggesting that understanding opposing views can lead to more productive conversations.
Conclusion and Book Promotion 39:15: Gavin shares where viewers can find his book and encourages all audiences to engage with its content for better understanding across Christian traditions.
It's always makes me scratch my head how a Protestant can say, "A Protestant carries the Gospel faithfully", but at the same time, have a plethora of interpretations of what the Gospel (Bible) means within all the denominations that call themselves Protestant.
What is the Gospel?
@@doubtingthomas9117exactly. Ask a Protestant that question and you’ll get a billion different answers. At its core Protestantism is incoherent.
There would be no man-made denominations and Churches that do not belong to the Body of Christ.
It always amazes me how a Protestant knows how to correct so called "errors" that happen in the Catholic Church.
Definition of a Christian. the name refers to all those who have been anointed through the gift of the Holy Spirit in Baptism, therefore, followers of Christ, and members of the Church established by Christ on the foundation of the apostles in 33 AD.
According to Acts 11:26, it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called "Christians".
Don't you guy believe Mary is sinless. Which is not biblical
Matt, you're the only reason I'm not ashamed to call myself a protestant. I would be catholic or orthodox if my life circumstances permitted it (marital issues, mostly)... if I'm ever able to sort those out I may still switch over. I think if all protestants were like you (humble, positive, eager to learn and to appreciate the types of faith that others keep) it would be taken much more seriously by the high churches. I think it's a great example to set, and one that I try to follow.
You would need to confirm a Priest, I think the Eastern Orthodox Church only counts failed sacramental marriages against you. If you weren’t in the Orthodox Church when your marriages ended, then I don’t think they really count against you. Also, I think they allow for a 2nd or 3rd marriage following repentance.
Lawful marriage is forever.
If the marriage is deemed unlawful by the [Catholic] Church then the two individuals would be granted a declaration of nullity, and free to marry another. Otherwise each is forever married to one another and only to them until death. Any idea that a civil divorce and/or remarriage to another is okay is actually adultery, as hard as that is to accept.
@@marlam8625 It's not really a matter of me accepting it or not. Whether they'll grant an anullment or not is up to the church. I'll ask them and explain the circumstances and see what they say.
It is the primary reason that I'm a protestant currently, though. There's no sense in joining a church where I'll be out of compliance from the get-go, and I'm not not going to lie to them about it or skirt the issue obviously, that would just make a mockery of the whole thing.
@@joshstephens12 I wasn't even religious at the time.
I'm vaguely aware that Orthodox (and I think even Byzantine Catholics) are more granular about the circumstances than the Catholic church, and I think my chances of permission are much higher with Orthodox or the Byzantine rite.
While I genuinely think both faiths are beautiful in their own rite, I would feel a little weird about picking one over the other just because it's what I 'qualify' for because of my circumstances, but that's not for me to decide at the end of the day, I suppose.
I think it's one of those things where I need to just trust God.
@@seranonable of course I don’t know your situation. You maybe in your first marriage- but it is a fact that if you are divorced and seek an annulment to be remarried in the sight of God, the Church tribunal would require info and declare if your first marriage is valid or not. The Catholic Church is not one denomination among many. The keys given to Peter denotes succession and authority. It’s a matter of living the reality of truth by the authority of their decision.
I’ve been learning about the undue influence of Platonic thought in Church History. It helps me to understand that the Church is still in process of purging herself from erroneous doctrine. The Gospel hadn’t been lost, but it has been obfuscated by heterodox understandings of God and creation.
I don’t understand how Gavin can say that Protestantism “was a good step”. It was a rebellion against church authority and ultimately, fundamentally a divorce. It is still dividing families and causing unspeakable strife and pain.
Protestantism was *necessary,* and the bad consequences were to no small degree the result of Roman Catholic institutional intransigence and response to the Reformation.
Rebellion against church authority?? You can’t be serious, people were literally being murdered just because they disagreed with the Pope, and you don’t think there was a problem with that? Imagine if Peter were to come down to earth and see that his so called infallible successors were waging wars and murdering people?
@@JW_______ “The truth lies with the Greeks” - Martin Luther, 1519
@@danfsteeple I prefer Eastern Orthodox theology to Augustinian theology. However Nicea II is sadly strong evidence to me that ecumenical councils are not infallible.
@@JW_______dig deeper into the theology behind iconography. It was a stumbling block for me too but now I see that iconoclasm leads to sin.
I also appreciate the “benefit-of-the-doubtiness” of what Gavin is saying (tremendous word!)
This is such an awesome crossover episode, my two favorite Protestants-that-don't-have-much-hair!
Talk about an epic crossover!
This was a very interesting discussion.
Some good questions and conversation here. I've been thinking particularly about institutional unity lately.
Cool topic discussed honestly and interestingly
Protestantism had to happen, it was inevitable.
The buoyancy of the truth is funny that way.
What? People always like to combat the truth with their own ideas of truth?
Perhaps it was inevitable, but I’d say it was a rejection of authority, not a buoyancy of the truth.
@@billmartin3561 that’s like saying the Devil was inevitable 😂
Jesus prayed that His followed be one. So, sepparation is never from God.
15:41 good things that would go away without the reformation in the Roman Catholic Church at least is: kids learning Silent Night's origin story, over half of the amazing hymns including Amazing Grace and the musical styles of the St Louis Jesuits and many other musicians of the last 60 years, most Spirituals and Appalachian country church songs , the work being done towards Orthodox churches and Catholic trying to figure out things, the serious work towards healing the Oriental schism, the Jesuits (up to Francis) who saw a necessary role to hold the Pope accountable, Catholic Social teaching, Narnia, Tolkien, Joan of Arc, America as the mixing pot it is, the stengthening of Catholic faith, unique cultures like French Canadian and Louisiana Cajun culture, the French Revolution, The original 13 English colonies. MLK Jr., several Catholic saints who rose above and stood up against corruption including Thomas More, the Roman church taking several steps to recognize more women for their unique gifts as Doctors of the Church.
If the Bible "interprets itself" why are there 33,000 different Protestant denominations of Christianity?
There aren't, so stop saying that. It makes us Catholics look ignorant.
There aren't. Hope that clears that up.
Why are there hundreds of RC denominations? Why are there over 700 EO denominations? ...The same source that claims tens of thousands of protestant denominations also claims that there are hundreds of catholic denominations. Also, the same source labels clearly apostate groups[cults] as christian. There are many non-catholics who don't believe in sola scriptura and go off the deep end. Lastly, protestants tend to accept other "denominations" as part of the one Church. We don't see disagreement as a unity shattering catastrophe. True unity can withstand a certain degree of disagreement.
I really appreciate both of you and the work you do on your channels. I'm from a Restorationist background, and I'm curious how much either of you have looked into the history of the Restoration movement (largely since the 1830s)
What does Gavin mean by "generosity"? I can be generous to Gavin in showing respect and so forth while also rejecting Protestantism as a valid movement within the Church.
Just be kind and charitable. You have no obligation to accept Protestantism.
@@rickdockery9620 The implication of Gavin's position is that there can be no unity unless I accept his paradigm as valid. But if I reject it as invalid, suddenly he thinks I'm not being generous. I think it's disingenuous to suggest he is being generous toward RC & EO Christians just because he's nice to them. At the end of the day, he doesn't think those traditions are valid of themselves and that they ought to become Protestant.
@@alypiusloft you’ve Jude described how Rome views me as a Lutheran. Most of my Catholic friends are nice to me, but don’t accept my faith. It’s a stalemate on both sides. We can still be kind and charitable while disagreeing. In Rome’s view, there is no unity outside of Rome. You are under no obligation to accept his views.
@@rickdockery9620 You're right, I'm not under obligation by Ortlund's view. However, the implication of his argument is that both RC and EO Christians would have to change their ecclesiastical views to align with his own to make the Protestant mission a success. He is making an authoritative argument.
A couple of my favorite RUclips theologians. The reformation also influenced governments and form of governments. In Luther's place and time church and state was pronounced church and the reformation played out in the founding form of the United States government.
I resonate with this idea that Protestantism is an unfinished work. I haven’t really thought of it like that before. Detractors will ask “So, did Protestantism succeed? Or did it fail?” But it hasn’t succeeded, nor has it failed. It has weathered some setbacks, but I maintain hope for greater unity and reform in the church without compromising on Christian essentials. What is more, we have full assurance of an eventual perfect unity in our Lord.
If protestantism were true, then there should not be numerous Protestant church denominations today.
@@justthink8952Non sequitur. You also currently adhere to a theological tradition with divisions and competing claims.
@@Mic1904
You mean to say, protestantism is true despite teaching things contrary to one another like some churches teach baptism is necessary for salvation while others teach it is not, correct? In other words, you are saying both baptism is necessary for salvation and baptism is not necessary for salvation are true, correct?
@@justthink8952 Incorrect. I say none of those things.
@@Mic1904
Then why did you say no sequitur with respect to my earlier post?
You know, protestants don't speak out clearly. They love taking advantage of ambiguous statements and avail the benefit of the doubt. The moment they speak out in no uncertain terms, they get cornered because protestantism is build on lies and deception.
God know, with protestantism we have people using the same Bible contradicting each other on important doctrinal issues and creating division in the form of several different denominations. Did Jesus died for every single person or just for some persons? Can salvation be lost or not? The Lordship salvation controversy and the Hyper grace controversy are serious disagreements on salvation etc.
This really helped me a lot
The only way the reformation couldn't happen is if movable type printing hadn't been invented. It's what let Luther and his compatriots have a lasting effect, unlike the many other pre-reformation movements.
My idea about how we could move forward on the ecumenical journey is tolerance and acceptance of imperfections.
If we take a holier than thou stance, we won't get anywhere. Nor, if we get anywhere, we will get perfection.
The solution is humility, the acceptance that, although we are firmly convinced of our beliefs, we might still be wrong.
The polar opposite of that is arrogance, and I think that it's the sin of arrogance that is pushing us apart every time we argue. We should debate, but we shouldn't argue.
As far as the Magic button question goes, why is the assumption those billion people would cease to be Christian? Every Christian I know personally, regardless of denomination regards themselves as Christian first and foremost and as whatever their denomination is second, even in the cases where they qualify that as something like "I'm a Christian that's why I'm Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant whatever, because I believe that is the true or truest form of Christianity." If Protestantism wasn't an option, I would assume those people who were Christian would still be Christian, no?
Like if Orthodoxy didn't exist, idk what I would be, but I would still be a Christian.
Matt , can you do a "5 reasons I'm not Catholic" video or something similar?
As a Protestant in the process of turning Eastern Orthodox, I very much enjoy your videos.
mmm this is some good stuff. thank you two for swimming in the deep water!
Matt's imagery of standing on the mound of bones was really good. It is all to easy for us to bite and devour one another, as Paul warned against. I think Protestants have the best position to be ecumenical because of our more limited "core" beliefs. Which means we need to be more humble and bear with those who have consciences that point them elsewhere.
SPIRITUAL PRIDE is the reason for most impasses between Christian denominations. In most debates, you can cut the tension with a knife- it's that thick. Both of you gentlemen are cordial and calm, while retaining your convictions within Christianity. Where charity and love prevail, there God is ever found. Brought here together by Christ's love; by love are we thus bound. God bless you both and your worthy endeavors to heal the masses by bringing truth and light to the world.
Honest question, What part or protestant denominations is @Dr Gavin Ortlund defending if so many disagree with one another Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, Anabaptist, Quakers,Calvinist, Seventh day Adventist, Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Anglican, Pentecostale, Amish non denomination ?
Gavin judges “accretions” based off of his interpretation of the scripture but the biggest accretion one could say is the idea of Sola Scriptura itself.
I loved this. And appreciated it. Currently attend an Anglican church. Raised Catholic. Love all my brothers and sisters in the body.
As a Protestant convert to Orthodoxy (over a decade ago), I genuinely appreciate you both. We do, indeed, have some significant disagreements and I believe the Orthodox Church has held faithfully to the Apostolic deposit and so Protestantism has erred. But I don't think that means, because we disagree, that you are dishonest, bad actors or of ill will. It took me a decade before becoming Orthodox to wrestle through all challenges I had with it. I also sincerely hope you both recognize the uncharitable interaction you often get in the comments section, are not a reflection of on-the-ground Orthodoxy in a local parish (i.e. real life). The anonymity and unaccountability allowed by the internet often draws less than ideal representatives of any position. In our case, those people are often either not even fully Orthodox themselves or are so new, they're still wet with the water of Baptism. I was obnoxious and over zealous when I was new to this all - the cage stage as it's sometimes referred to (I'm probably still obnoxious, though hopefully a little less so). I've had the pleasure of visiting at least 2 dozen Orthodox Churches and have never encountered that special breed that seems to thrive on the internet in person. They are the vocal minority. God bless you both!
Matt Whitman for president 🎉
My answer to the question is : Martin Luther would have participated in the council of Trent. Reform would have taken place within the church.
Uhmm, I think the other way round makes more sense. Afterall the Church had all the time to study Luther's concerns. Instead the Church put a price on his head.
On the important issue of salvation, I got a summary of a Catholic view of salvation and thought that it lined up with most Protestant doctrine:
"In summary, salvation in Catholic theology is fundamentally God’s work in us, initiated by His grace and accessed through faith in Jesus Christ. Sanctification and good works are evidence of this grace and faith, not the means by which salvation is earned. This understanding emphasizes that salvation is a gift from God, and human response through faith and cooperation with grace reflects the transformative effect of this gift." I'd like to hear from any Catholic believers if it missed anything important. This seems like common ground on which to build.
I think you just drove a whole bunch of us Catholics to look up the time travel scene in Avengers Endgame.
Had to happen. There was a feeling in the 13th century even that religion was holding back progress. Which in a healthy sense it was. Now there are almost no boundaries for destroying the entire ecosystem.