Im crying watching this. Im directly between these two pastors. And it is so great seeing them love one another. This is what Our lord and savior the big homie Jesus wants to see[ in my humble opinion] thank you matt . We have never meet but you have helped me and my family so much since i discovered your channel. Cant express how much the kingdom needs these dialoges on both sides. God bless you bro. And much love to all the homies in the chat .
I'm Episcopalian. I was raised in an evangelical Southern Baptist church. The thing that landed me in the Episcopal Church was frankly the stifling "certainty" with which I was raised. I just didn't compute to me that people could have *that* much certainty about a bunch of really mysterious things, I didn't trust their reasoning to get to the answers, and I REALLY didn't appreciate being told to be quiet when I asked hard questions. In the Episcopal Church people aren't afraid to say "I don't know the answer to that," and it's up to *YOU* to dig into Scripture, consider time and place of things said and done in Scripture, consider how those should or should not affect you in modern life. That was refreshing, because my faith no longer felt like such a straight jacket where I had to just agree and do what the pastor said, even if he was making a hash of Scripture in his long winded sermon. I sometimes hear people say "but you're not Bible believing," but frankly that's an accusatory lie that I find rather rude and uninformed. Of *course* we're Bible believing. We read and reflect on it *every single service* , literally following a lectionary that ties Old Testament readings, Psalm readings, New Testament Epistles, and Gospel together week by week (not many Evangelical pastors are that thorough in my experience). Scripture is VERY important to us. What we *don't* do however, is pretend like Scripture has no context, or is some simplistic rule book. We acknowledge how it came into being, and we take that into account in how we process it. We know that the canon of Scripture itself was decided *by ecumenical council*. Some things were considered authoritative, some were considered historical but not authoritative, and some things we simple left out because their origin was doubted. To quote Dr. Don Carson: "A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text." In other words, you can make Scripture say ANYTHING if you ignore context, and that is a kind of churchmanship to which we do not prescribe.
Well said, my friend...well said. That is what drew me to the Episcopal church, too. The beauty, the richness of scripture, tradition, the history, the freedom to reason and the freedom (liberality) to explore deeply bathed in a treasure trove of prayer. Definitely not a faith community that exists in an echo chamber of theology....or "persuasion". Great comments...appreciated!
I'm Anglican. I lean conservative. I've avoided more confessional churches for precisely because of that reason. We are fallible, including our priests and bishops. While we must agree on the essentials of the Christian faith, I am suspicious of any church claiming they have the right answer to every question.
@Calphool222. You can find it rude if you like. Completely up to you. But it’s not controversial to say that Episcopalians believe what they want to believe in Scripture and disregard the rest. It’s not really up for debate. Most Episcopalians I know wouldn’t bother to contest it, and frankly, they tend to find wholesale acceptance of the Bible (as divinely inspired) distasteful. Way back in the 1920’s, Princeton’s J. Gresham Machen observed that Christian Liberalism (Mainline Protestantism) was, in truth, an entirely different religion: “The Christian religion . . . is certainly not the religion of the modern liberal Church, but a message of divine grace, almost forgotten now, as it was in the middle ages, but destined to burst forth once more in God’s good time, in a new Reformation, and bring light and freedom to mankind.” The Mainlines have only veered farther and farther left in the past 100 years. There is no longer any resemblance to historic Christianity. Why anyone would try to deny that is beyond me. I grew up in the ELCA (a liberal Lutheran denomination). I had some of the sweet old church ladies in Bible Study or Sunday School from time to time. Their personal theology, such as it was, had far more in common with Hinduism than Christianity. I was also on the HOBD listserve (House of Bishops and Deacons) during the period when the nascent ACNA was pulling away from the TEC. These elites, in the hierarchy of the Episcopal Church, reminded me far more of worldly politicians than leaders of the congregations of Christ. They mercilessly mocked their more conservative co-religionists without a hint of compassion for the parishes whose property they were basically stealing.
To be honest, I was expecting something more controversial and heated. I found this as a really great and honest conversation, and you can tell that father Mark is a pastor who has love for the people he’s been called to serve
I feel the same way about it. I thought it was going to much different but with Matt's nice guy nature and style of interviewing it gives off a very different vibe. Really a natural interviewer.
What you can tell immediately is that Mark is a homosexual and, without much effort, deduce his disordered theology is the consequence of his disordered sexuality. 100%
Just FYI, the official position of The Episcopal Church is that one must be baptized and repentant of one's sins before receiving Holy Communion. This canon is rarely, if ever, enforced, but it's still the official position of The Episcopal Church.
One wonders why this would be controversial. Why would someone who is not baptized want communion? Seems like if they want communion then they want to be baptized, which is easy to fix.
@@zestotemp because it is a false action to suggest unity. Regardless of denomination- no one should present them selves for communion without agreement to the doctrines held by the respective church.
Matt…. I feel like you’re the best friend I’ve never met. You and Destin are incredible people and I feel very fortunate for having found both of you. Thanks.
I appreciate the respect that you treat those who believe things differently than you to. So many people are polarized in a specific direction, probably well over 20,000 directions and do not know how to agree to disagree. Within my close family, these disagreements occur. Within a group of ladies formed to make an impact with the marginalized, will disagree. Disagreements are good, disrespect is not good. I am a Catholic and the hateful comments I see annd hear is appalling. I recognize that there are ministers who spend their time at the pulpit telling many mistruths about Catholics, the Catholic Religion and Catholic Faith. I find it sad, I recognize it as gossip and slander and it is unfortunate. We are not judge and jury and we should love all of our brothers. This includes our Muslim brothers, our Jewish brothers and sisters all, and we should adore our Christian brothers and sisters. I love how the individuals you interview are so sure in their faith that they can confidently answer any question, even troublesome questions, thoroughly and not defensively. I am NOT an Evangelical Protestant and previously believed I did not like them, in spite of everything I said before. The truth (as I see it) is that amidst all of the different faiths who worship GOD, there will be sheisters and cheats. Swindlers and liars, because we are all sinful humans and those people are everywhere. But, I follow your channel and watch most every video when I am notified that you have put one up. You have eliminated quite a few of my prejudices, and I thank you, sincerely, for that. Would that we all treated those we disagree with with the respect you give. Thank you.
Very kindly said. And transparent and is appreciated. I'm glad his videos have had you see those positive positions. I myself have every denomination in my family, and we all strive to get along and love eachother as Christ loves us. I like how you said, there are shiesters in every bunch, but you can see Jesus is the hearts of the ones who heartily follow Him and lead it that. Former Catholic, Non-denominational now, but love the richness of my tradional brothers and sisters, and truly God has been stirring my heart for some time and I desire the Liturgy, Creeds, and other things so much. I guess I'll say undecided right now. Comments like yours are what we need. Open and loving, honest and extending a hand. A bridge. Thanks brother or sister. God bless
He had me until "Hitler IS in heaven." I could understand "Hitler might be in heaven" for we cannot be the ones who stand in ultimate judgment. But to make the declaration that all go to heaven because of the work of Christ on the cross, then there would be no reason for all of the teachings of "I am the narrow gate."
He does follow it up by saying that God has done some kind of restorative justice, at some point in 'time' (not our time). That makes it less wild, I think
Christ is the narrow gate, the only way we may all enter. We can not enter in on our own, He is the way for all people. There is nothing contradictory there.
Loved the video as always. I wonder Matt if you’ve thought of doing this kind of thing in the UK? I’d love to see you engage with someone over the Church of England. It’d combine your appreciation for Anglicanism with some additional questions around being a state church. We’re also going through a church-wide conversation about living in communion and difference which your take on would be great. I even know a priest theologian or two who would take you up on a conversation!
That gets a huge vote from me! Maybe also with a church here in the evangelical Protestant tradition which, from here in the UK, feels very different in character (and dare I say political colour) from the picture we get of the American Evangelical churches.
thumbs up to that, would be cool to see him travel to other countries (or maybe just a good zoom call) to talk with folks of other denominations from around the world.
What a lovely conversation. Thanks for giving us an example of how to be generous, kind, and caring to someone who (at the face) we may not agree with.
37:27 It took me a sec to realize but your question about "Is there any justice for what Hitler did?" was something that would have been a softball to most expressions of the Christian faith.
I grew up in a conservative evangelical church mega church environment. I’ve been totally disillusioned with the path many have taken in that environment - I have been researching the episcopal church over the past year and really appreciate these videos. Thank you!
This man seems to be a humanist more than Christian. It seems he is doing what most people do, creating God in his own image. All his 'questions' that are presented as unanswerable, have answers in scripture. He is a traffic cop pointing the way to the wide road, unfortunately. I will be praying for Pastor Mark, that he would find and know the truth. He seems genuinely nice.
Matt your approach and the interview itself was sooooo educational!! He was so forthright in his explanations. While I hold to way different positions on the topics covered, He did a great job of verbally expressing the "statement of belief" as we call that for our small non-denominational bible chapel. We have a written statement of belief which as the lay pastor I get into the hands of all visitors. People should seek out this information and carefully consider these points, for as was stated---its way better for all involved not to force a square peg into a round hole (or to change the shape of the hole). I appreciate the work you put into your channel!
Would love to see you visit: - a Western Rite Orthodox Church - St Patrick's Orthodox Church in Bealeton, Virginia would be super interesting; - an Ordinariate Use Catholic Church - the Cathedral of Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston, Texas would be super interesting; and - some monasteries.
35:30 Q: "So do you have anything called sin in your church? Is anything wrong? Is there justice in the universe?" A: "There's a big wide spectrum and people believe different stuff......" This right here is why Liberal Christianity never goes anywhere. People attach themselves to religious communities for many reasons, but a big one is to understand that there might be a higher, bigger picture than what us little individuals can see. Liberal Christianity doesn't answer the questions that people go to church to find out answers to. So why go? I'd rather go to brunch, if nobody has any answers, since at least there will be some good food there.
I bet you google stuff and use the first couple of hits as “research”? This is the very FIRST non conservative Minister that Matt has interviewed. Look how diverse the responses have been within the conservative churches .. the non-conservative is the same. Using labels like “liberal Christianity” so fiercely is just sad.
@@jamesellis1190 So you really don’t know that there is such a thing as “liberal Christianity “??? There is, and it has a particular definition. It sounds like you’re the one just spitballing stuff.
Thank you for being willing to listen to other perspectives. We need more people willing to listen to other Christians and people of other faiths while remaining respectful.
As a catholic I find it hard to understand a christian that does not want to persuade anyone of their beliefs. Either you found the missing coin and communicate your joy to neighbors or you just don't really care about coins. If the Good News is just MY good news, why should I announce it to all creatures?
As an Episcopalian that converted from a Baptist tradition, I often joke that I evangelize now more than as an evangelical. I love my faith tradition, and I do want to share it with any and all. However, I don’t want to persuade people to my tradition just because I think it’s the best. They have to determine what’s best for them, they are the expert on themself-not me. And as much as I want people to join my tradition, I know that it’s not the right fit for all. I personally believe that God meets people through various traditions that meets them best in those moments. Episcopalian tradition won’t meet the needs of every person. The baptist church won’t meet the needs of every person. And the Catholic Church won’t meet the needs of every person. We offer the goodness we have, and if it’s not the best fit for you to connect with God at that time, then why would I try to persuade you into that?
@@mkmoore8999 I think you are totally missing the point. I don't believe in proselytizing, but I certainly believe in evangelizing. I believe that Jesus Christ is the answer to the human condition. I believe he is the incarnation of what God wants for humanity. I do not need to make a baptist a catholic or vice versa. But I consider catholicism has the best articulation and responds more fully to the Gospel. I absolutely want to persuade non christians and the world that the Gospel is the way forward towards God's dream for humanity.
And this is one of the main things that caused me to leave Christianity as a teen. The idea that I need to go to people of other religions and tell them they are wrong and try to convert them to my beliefs. It just feels dirty. If a friend wants to know about my religion I will tell them, if not it doesn't make me any less of a Christian. As a Catholic I fully understand you will disagree and that's okay.
As an Anglican priest for over 30 years, as a professor of Anglican Theology, as the author of two books on Anglican Theology, I can say that Reverend Mark represents a very small minority within Anglicanism both historically and globally. Anglicanism, historically and globally, would align itself with orthodox, historic, Protestantism. ACNA was not created to "do its own thing." It was created to allow Anglicans in North America to continue doing what The Church had done for 2,000 years. It was people like Reverend Mark who want to "do their own thing." His presentation of Anglicanism is very dishonest.
He represents the mainstream of Anglicanism within the Church of England. The congregation of my church in central London would be very comfortable with him as our priest. I bet his sermons are great.
I am firmly Catholic, but I appreciate men like you who accurately represent their traditions, so that those who disagree can have honest conversations.
This is a reasonably good primer on 'broad church' Episcopal theology, along with the earlier video. The conversation touched on "lex orandi lex credendi" with the discussion of communion and persuasion, and I believe the earlier video talked about the "three wheels" or "three legs". I wish that there had been more discussion of Incarnational Theology in regards to salvation and the historical commonality of universalism, as theologically liberal Episcopalians tend to focus on these things. But yes, what I see here is rather common to even my small church in Ohio. I wish he had followed your question about justice with a better answer, as human ideas about justice (usually equaling punishment) are not the same as God's justice (which is beyond human understanding). There can be an obsession with personal salvation in many Christian communities, but my position (and the position of many of my brothers and sisters) is that the grace of God has worked out salvation; it is our role to trust in and follow Jesus, to love God and neighbor, to repent our failings, and not to make ourselves anxious over it because God is love and God's forgiveness is so much greater than we can conceive. As the Episcopal Church collect for Good Friday says, "let the whole world see and know that things which were cast down are being raised up, and things which had grown old are being made new, and that all things are being brought to their perfection by him through all things were made, Jesus Christ our Lord". Amen.
Man this channel is fascinating! I had no idea this is what Episcopalians believe! I joined ACNA this year after growing up Presbyterian and I had no clue how different Episcopal beliefs were. I love this series so much!
Just because Scripture doesn’t tell us of the disciples being baptized, that doesn’t mean they weren’t. Christ clearly tells his apostles that baptism is a fundamental part of becoming his disciple, so it would be unfitting for them not to have been.
I am part of a mainline denomination which also believes that, on paper, baptism is "the way in". At the same time, I can also acknowledge that neither I nor the rules of the church are gatekeepers of God's table, nor of God's favor. So we say during Communion "let no rule of human creation" bar us from receiving Communion, "for it is Christ who invites us." If you are so moved, you partake.
Wow, what an interesting conversation! For my personality and fundamentalist Bible thumping background forced onto me since Preschool, Episcopal Churches are very appealing. I love Jesus, and want to express His love with my life. Church life can be SO complex. Fire and brimstone kind of preaching, being spoon fed the Word, etc. I like using my mind with my faith, and I feel that Episcopalians do too. Excited to not give up on Jesus as a whole! Thanks for making this!
Whoa, I have enjoyed the look into different churches. This one takes the cake for controversy, and I am not really sure how to respond. I am so thankful for God's call on my life which includes reverence for and adherence to His written word and not just to an example found in Christ Jesus while on this earth. I cherish the words in 1 John 5:13, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life." And 1John 5:20, "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." Keep up the good work !!
He views the Bible in any way that suits him at the moment. He is a homosexual with a “husband” who preaches nothing by feelings and theological jibberish.
I am an Episcopalian and came to the church because of its respect for the sacred mystery of God - from Creation through Redemption to Consumation. As a prophet once said, "My thoughts are not your thoughts..." (Isaiah 55).
Really engrossing conversation. I wonder sometimes if my faith would have held out if I'd been able to sit with the questions instead of being expected to accept dogmatic answers.
I appreciate this guys willingness to talk with you and we need conversation especially where there is disagreement, but this really confirmed that for me that Machen was right.
@@alexpietsch7997J. Gresham Machen was a defender of Christian orthodoxy in the early 20th century, who wrote the landmark book, "Christianity and Liberalism." It's worth a read and a re-read.
I was raised as a catholic and in my younger years rebelled against the strict dogmatic approach towards church rules, theology and liturgy, which the Othordox church also has in their hierarchy,but when I look at some of the other Christians denominations nowadays and how each church, even within their own denomination, decide that they won’t follow this or allow that and even at times preach things that are diametrically opposed to God’s word and promote sin, it makes me realise that although I do not agree with the idea of a popes infallibility or a forceful authoritarian church leadership, there must be some binding agreement and strict following of traditions and theology otherwise we will just have thousands of mini popes trying to make their version of Christianity through their own interpretation of the Church fathers teachings. I pray for church unity one day under Christ our lord, amen ✝️
Matt, that was a valiant effort to find a single thread that would tie this man to orthodoxy. You were very kind to him. Unfortunately, this is just the hollow carcass of a church. Normally I find something that I can say amen to in your conversations. I couldn’t in this one.
Pastoring has become even more difficult because of "pastors/priests" like this. A complete rejection of the scripture. How does one become saved? Mat 16:24, "Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." Romans 10:9-10; John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Acts 2:38; Romans 6:23; Etc. People, is does not matter what you, I or anybody else thinks or says. The response is simple, "Here is what scripture says."
My goal is not to be hurtful or mean spirited, but for all his talk of "following Jesus" the conga line he is following/leading does not have Jesus at the front. He seemed earnest his feeling and perceiving a reality of the Triune God, but his words betrayed that he is not letting God be the Lord of his life. I am praying for that to change. I am thankful Mark was open and vulnerable enough to have this video discussion, and thanks to Matt for these types of thought provoking videos.
I have to say I found this conversation a little confusing compared to my expectations from your intro. I expected a big showdown about 'liberal' expressions of Christianity, maybe Biblical authority and things like that, but most of the conversation is about... how to deal with denominational splits? Maybe it's just me but that seemed a bit tangential
Matt, I appreciate your willingness to have an open dialogue with those across the spectrum of Christianity. I am a former Episcopalian and it is a large tent, indeed. The church I attended as a child and young man was both evangelical and charismatic, and more aligned with the beliefs/practices of the ACNA church you visited a while back. While I disagree with several of Rev. Mark’s positions, your respectful tone towards each other sets the bar for those seeking dialog and understanding over condemnation.
For communion At least in my church/diocese CFL it comes from the BCP. As with ELCA Lutherans there is a general confession, prayer prayed before communion. Also we are supposed to be praying daily and so on and reading, marking and inwardly digesting scriptures daily and praying before worship, and doing the same. You’re actually supposed to come in a little early kneel or sit and observe the holy silence, and pray that the lessons will come in to you. It’s really quite wonderful. UNFortunately, in today’s world a lot of people don’t do that but that’s a story for another day. I wonder if the entertainment church mentality had anything to do with that. The priest will give the invitation to come to the table to receive communion for the Eucharist, which basically means Thanksgiving it’s not some evil Catholic term. Period. The invitation says that all baptized Christians are invited to come forward for communion, and then says that if they haven’t been baptized, they should cross their arms in front, signaling that they would prefer a blessing instead, the worship bulletin will also say this. This is sort of an equivalent to an alter call, but not exactly the same. Prayers are said after the service and you meet with the clergy afterwards on the way out.
I’m an LCMS Lutheran (sad that I even have to put the LCMS part but I don’t want to be associated with sparkle Creeds lol) so I disagree with 95% of what this guy is saying. He shouldn’t even be a pastor. There’s parts of the Bible that he’s completely ignoring so what other parts is he ignoring? That’s not how you preach the Bible. Church shouldn’t make you “feel good” about your sins and If you’re not preaching Christ crucified than what are you even doing?
The other part he doesn’t want to discuss would be the homosexual thing. Evidently, he has a “husband”. Sadly, Predicable. Regardless, couldn’t agree with you more.
This was a fantastic conversation and even at 43:24 was way too short. We need more of this kind of thing; where people have honest conversations where they are more interested in understanding one another and finding points of commonality instead of contention, not just as fellow Christians but in the larger world as well. I think if you feel some of your questions might have seemed off-putting, it's not so much that Rev Mark found them that way as it is that questions that perhaps seem like they would be simple are actually quite complicated for us Episcopalians. There is quite a broad range of belief and of understanding within the Episcopal Church, and we pride ourselves in that. And we are loath to tell anyone that we have all the answers and that our way is the only way.
25:01 I am perplexed by this statement. The defining difference between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, is that Protestants root gospel unity in the Gospel and not in doctrinal distinctions. To call something “silly” is interesting. I’m curious to know what this man would say those silly things are.
Not wishing to put words in his mouth, but I can think of an example of a church that split because of an argument between 2 brothers (in the physical, rather than the spiritual, sense of that word) the brothers had a family feud and, as a result, eventually their whole church split... When churches split over doctrinal issues it can be very sad, but these can be understood. But the church should be bigger than a petty family feud. Does that make sense? It was certainly the idea that first came into my head when I heard Rev. Mark say that...
@@df6957, hey! That makes sense to me. Im reformed baptist, so I am well aware of church splits for trivial matters. My concern however, is with what he calls silly? When differences between conservative Christian’s and more liberal Christian’s like this come together, I find that those things are not all too “silly” at times. I don’t want to put words in his mouth either. I think that is noble and charitable of you. My mind is wondering, I suppose.
Imagine how difficult it would be to grow your membership at a health gym, where if somebody walks in and ask, “how do I join your gym,” you didn’t have a direct answer for them but instead you said, “let’s have a conversation about what you’re feeling right now…”
I think this was a very polite and respectful conversation, and I applaud that. I am very concerned with several things Reverend Mark said, most specifically when he said that he didn't know if there was any justice and resolution for the Holocaust. I'm neither a theologian nor a philosopher, but hasn't Rev. Mark boxed himself in? If God forgives the heinous crimes of Hitler but doesn't necessarily resolve them or provide justice, that would make God unjust and therefore imperfect, and therefore not God. If his position is universalism, then there's nothing more I can add to what seems to me to be a pretty open-and-shut case that universalism is not a biblical doctrine. On the other hand, I find it worrisome that someone who is in his position did not immediately say that yes there was resolution for it in that Jesus Christ took the price of ALL sin onto Himself on the cross. To quote Will Weedon (yep that's right): Uh uh uh uh, baby! He said the sins of the WORLD. There is no sin that was not fully paid for by Christ on the cross. Surely as Christians, we must all agree that Christ is the entirely propitiating sacrifice whereby humanity's debt of sin was fully and completely paid for. "It is accomplished." If we say other than that, I fear we make Christ a liar, and certainly He is not a liar.
21:15 How does he go about "speaking the truth in love" if he also says "who am I to say what it means to be a Christian?"? His whole message is basically saying "I'm here to help people find their own truth". I'm not really sure what Jesus has to do with any of it other than Jesus being some kind of embodiment of whatever you want a higher power to be.
I recently became 7 Day adventist, and thought maybe it would be a good follow-up video to the others that you've already done with established Seventh-Day adventist.
That’s pretty funny it’s one of the first things I thought in the first video. The “liberal” thing probably prepped me for the assumption. Maybe I’m just more judgey 🤷🏽
I kept hoping for more sparks. I do remember Verna Dozier, who was very popular back in the day when I was a director of religious education in the episcopal church, and I think her ideas have been catastrophic. But I'm a little upset that the Church of England kept the Catholic Church's buildings when they left.
@DrGero15 yeah, I guess I thought a little repartee would be entertaining. I thought Priest was rather spot on, if I remember correctly after several nights' sleep. Oops. I was remembering a different video. I wish Matt had asked for more reasons for the priest's responses, which seem rooted in Rogerian therapy more than anything else.
I appreciate these videos. They shed light on the varieties of Christian denominations in the country, and it's super easy to see why Christianity is fading... 0 confidence. 0 speaking with authority. 0actual Biblical answers. When you're not rooted in anything there's nothing to hold on to.
I come from a tradition which has become similar in many regards to St. Marks. I have reconciled it in my mind by viewing the church as a big family. Sometimes families agree, sometimes they disagree, but no matter what they are family. Sometimes i strongly disagree with my family but i love them anyway.
Big thank you- I've been really getting into these interviews you're doing. I think it's awesome to have a straightforward way of understanding various Christian denominations. Also, are you former military? Looked like you were at parade rest the whole time lol.
@2Uahoj because the things we disagree on largely are fairly minor (major to those on oposing sides of an issue but minor in the grand scheme of things), and we agree on the core values as put forth in the creeds.
I heard this phrase when I was in college: "We are called to unity, not uniformity." I think that echoes some of the replies here. However I also like NT Wright's statement (and I am paraphrasinghere): I think that if Paul was writing to the church today he would be concerned not only with the lack of unity in the church, but with how little many care about the lack of unity.
The episcopal church prays for forgiveness of sin as part of liturgy before the Eucharist is served. It involves confession and absolution and is beautifully written.
Hey Matt, I love your informative videos. Any chance we could see one on the Names of God? I can't seem to find any sort of definition around the differences between YAWH, Adonai, I Am...understanding these seems critical to understanding the Bible.
With every question, Mark just got further and further from anything resembling Christianity. I'm Catholic, and seeing this guy speak about Christ's Church and how blatantly he is ignoring what God wants is very frustrating. This video made me have more respect for the Protestant view by showing me how much worse it COULD be..
I’m making this comment halfway in as a conservative Catholic, but I don’t understand why someone would stay in something like this and practically reject “Go and make disciples of all nations.”
I really enjoyed the way that both of you handles this discussion. Although I must admit I do wonder if these two videos should be in the learning about other religions rather than the church unity playlist. The degree of variation in theology in the Anglican church here is Australia is really quite impressive and though it hasn't had a split like in the USA it is certainly possible. Though perhaps getting less likely as the liberal churches are declining and the conservative churches are growing. Could be something to do with needing to follow Jesus becoming pretty irrelevant if we are all going to be forgiven anyway.
Do all Episcopal or Anglican priests believe and preach universal salvation such as this priest seems to be implying? It sounds almost as if he doesn’t believe you can ever fully reject God of your own free will. Although perhaps thats not what he meant and I am reading way too much into what was said.
So revealing an interview. I now understand an example of liberalism. It seems to be “I’ll follow the dream of God, but only the parts I am comfortable with”
That was hard to watch. But several times while watching, you asked a sneaky well thought out question, when i thought the conversation was not moving forward. You helped guide the dialog which painted a fantastic picture of what this guy believes vs what a born again Christian believes. I saw this main distinction: the gospel message vs traditions and beliefs to make you feel good. This guy unfortunately doesn't know the gospel and what it means to know Christ and be saved.
Also he only quoted the bible once, it almost seemed like he was trying to avoid talking about anything to do with the bible, sounds like he doesn't know what it says
Rev. Mark is far from the norm for Christians who believe in following traditions in worship, be they Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Catholic, or Orthodox.
A part of me also felt like maybe he was afraid to answer Matt's questions. Like he didn't want to cause an argument or dissension in their conversation. He seemed to hesitate in his response and turned it around into a question back. But church leaders shouldn't be afraid, especially given the setting and Matt's deep patience with interviewing. I love his videos and especially his podcasts, very approachable and relatable. As for traditions, I agree with you there. It seems like his portrayal of beliefs was very loosely connected to some form of tradition, but as long as everyone is happy. In Matt's other interviews of different denominations, it was a lot easier to see what the traditions actually were.
I have visited many episcopal churches. Some are high church some are low, some adhere to orthodox faith as described in the Common Book of Prayer, others like this gentleman take a different interpretive approach. That’s the beauty of Anglicanism to me as an orthodox Christian, the diversity, even if at times as he alluded to its inherently difficult and sometimes tragic and frustrating
Great Show Matt! I wanted to comment on the Hitler in hell thing. The way I look at it, Jesus doesn’t care when you come to the harvest, as long as you come. The reward for those who came at the beginning is the same as the reward for those who came late, even if it didn’t come till the moment that he swallowed that pill in a bunker. Only God can see into a soul and know if you chose him or if you chose hell. I don’t know exactly what God’s justice looks like for Hitler, but I know it doesn’t look like man’s justice.
Wow. A man (and possibly his church, and possibly his entire faith tradition) who is not confident that heaven is a great place to be or that there is justice for sin and evil. I wonder, if I believed these things, how that would change my life... I have to believe Mark has faith that there is justice but can't articulate what that looks like. If I didn't believe that at all, I think it would make life a little too hopeless.
I remember a Catholic priest tell me once the difference between protestants and catholics was that if protestants were unhappy they changed churches, if Catholics were unhappy they just stayed home. In my case i left and joined a wonderful Episcopal church that is open to everyone, no exceptions.
The priest was largely correct- why would a Catholic trade down when they can just sit out the inning. I get being pissed at the Catholic Church, but most intuitively recognize that Protestants have created a Christianity that suits their personal tastes- regardless of the facts.
Matt you are doing a great job we are learning a lot about the other denominations. Im sure it was hard going to the devil playground at that church. I pray that reverend comes back to christ and stops this nonsense.
Sometimes unity is not good. And is actually bad. Listening to a progressive grip about schisms when they're categorically the ones innivating is bizarre, beinf gaslit in the extreme.
Agnostic here. I've really wanted to get into liberal Christianity, specifically because I just don't know where I stand. Oddly enough, though, I can never take the plunge precisely because liberal Christianity seems so open as to not really believe in anything. As a result, I find myself wondering what the point would even be. I dunno. Just my two cents.
Grew up Freewill Baptist and now Episcopalian.. I have to say you get way more scripture in an Episcopalian service than most nonliturgical ones. A large chunk of all 4 (OT, NT, Psalms and the gospel) is read in each service
I appreciate that Rev. Mark was so articulate about his and his church's position on so many fundamental things. I may disagree with many of those positions but I see the heart of it and that is awesome. I really appreciate your sharing this journey of exploring other churches and the theological differences in this body of Christ. Bless you and yours Matt.
We should not tolerate priests such as these. We must never hate them, but we must never tolerate this. He is more aligned with political liberal theology than Christian theology. He finds it a graver sin to be a gatekeeper than to be a false teacher. They is not Biblical and that is not Christlike. Christ taught that the world will hate us, and this is the reason. Because we MUST stand at the line and must never bend.
amazed by your patience. But I trust that letting this man say nonsensical and self-contradictory things is its own apologetic against radical progressive Christianity.
I'm tapping out at 13 mins in. If you can't answer the "How do I become a Christian?" question directly, I don't know what to say. The response of "That, for me, is a troublesome question." made me literally lol. These people aren't Christian, in that they don't follow Christ. You can tell they don't follow Christ, because they don't believe what he said. Technically speaking, they don't follow the Apostle's (Nicene) creed. In fact, they aren't even "close" (if that term actually means anything). They have the right building, the right clothes (if there are such things), and from the outside they look the same. But these people don't know the I AM who said he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and there is no way to the Father except through him. I can't help but be reminded about Paul's rant in 2 Timothy 3, all of the later NT on false teachers, or Jesus' own words when he told the group that did all these "good" things for him that he never knew them!
Interesting conversation on understanding how a progressive Episcopal priest approaches his faith. I don’t agree with the views he presented, and that approach is a departure from the historic Faith still practiced by groups as diverse as the RCC and SBC. However, the conversation was genuinely illuminating.
Just an observation: I think that putting aside the differences of liberal vs conservative, I think that there is an additional layer of difference between Anglicans/Catholics and post-Great Awakening Protestants. Whereas Protestants are Bible-heavy and emphasize doctrine as the key pillar or unity, Anglicans and Catholics tend to see theology as a three-legged stool of: tradition, scripture, and experience (different factions emphasizing each leg differently) So, where Matt defaults to phrasing things in the language of "agree" or "disagree" in a cognitive propositional sense, he can often not fully appreciate the degree to which another tradition is emphasizing another leg and engaging with their tradition in perspectival, procedural, and/or participatory terms; rather than propositional terms.
Thanks for the comment. I think I understand the differences you're talking about quite clearly, but the reason I chose to use the language I did in this video is because we're talking about such very basic things and arriving at different conclusions or at least very different ways of articulating those conclusions. It's rare that the distinction is so obvious at the surface level.
@MattWhitmanTMBH And thank you for the comment! I appreciate how both respectful and honest you are in these videos, which is why I keep watching them. I guess I am interested in what Father Mark would have answered had you asked the question: "How important are theological conclusions AT ALL to what it means to be Episcopalian, relative to other aspects of religion? (sacraments, traditions, relationships, etc)." Again, as an observation and definitely not a critique: the very fact that a propositional difference of theological CONCLUSION (I want italics) is for you so intuitively noteworthy says something about the emphasis your tradition puts on conclusions relative to processes. (And no, I am not de-emphasizing the liberal/conservative variable, simply adding more variables of note) Again, NOT a critique. I understand completely that the things that stand out to you also stand out to your audience. I love what you do!
It's frustrating that a reverend of a church that claims to represent Christ on this earth cant answer direct questions crucial to the faith without reframing them to fit his own theological definitions. If anything this is a good example of where the church can go wrong. In the end Jesus will judge and separate the goats from the sheep. Matt you did a great job.
Not judging this guy, but on the surface - from what he himself asserts - he's not a Christian. Wish it were otherwise, but his ideas depart from the Lord's pretty clearly.
Im crying watching this. Im directly between these two pastors. And it is so great seeing them love one another. This is what Our lord and savior the big homie Jesus wants to see[ in my humble opinion] thank you matt . We have never meet but you have helped me and my family so much since i discovered your channel. Cant express how much the kingdom needs these dialoges on both sides. God bless you bro. And much love to all the homies in the chat .
I love that you asked him about "God's dream" because that caught my ear when he said it too! Well done and very respectful. Thank you!
You should read the book he recommended by Verna Dozier! It’s incredible.
I'm Episcopalian. I was raised in an evangelical Southern Baptist church. The thing that landed me in the Episcopal Church was frankly the stifling "certainty" with which I was raised. I just didn't compute to me that people could have *that* much certainty about a bunch of really mysterious things, I didn't trust their reasoning to get to the answers, and I REALLY didn't appreciate being told to be quiet when I asked hard questions. In the Episcopal Church people aren't afraid to say "I don't know the answer to that," and it's up to *YOU* to dig into Scripture, consider time and place of things said and done in Scripture, consider how those should or should not affect you in modern life. That was refreshing, because my faith no longer felt like such a straight jacket where I had to just agree and do what the pastor said, even if he was making a hash of Scripture in his long winded sermon.
I sometimes hear people say "but you're not Bible believing," but frankly that's an accusatory lie that I find rather rude and uninformed. Of *course* we're Bible believing. We read and reflect on it *every single service* , literally following a lectionary that ties Old Testament readings, Psalm readings, New Testament Epistles, and Gospel together week by week (not many Evangelical pastors are that thorough in my experience). Scripture is VERY important to us. What we *don't* do however, is pretend like Scripture has no context, or is some simplistic rule book. We acknowledge how it came into being, and we take that into account in how we process it. We know that the canon of Scripture itself was decided *by ecumenical council*. Some things were considered authoritative, some were considered historical but not authoritative, and some things we simple left out because their origin was doubted. To quote Dr. Don Carson: "A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text." In other words, you can make Scripture say ANYTHING if you ignore context, and that is a kind of churchmanship to which we do not prescribe.
Well said, my friend...well said. That is what drew me to the Episcopal church, too. The beauty, the richness of scripture, tradition, the history, the freedom to reason and the freedom (liberality) to explore deeply bathed in a treasure trove of prayer. Definitely not a faith community that exists in an echo chamber of theology....or "persuasion". Great comments...appreciated!
I too was brought up in an evangelical Baptist Church. I became an Episcopalian when I was 25. I have never looked back.
I'm Anglican. I lean conservative. I've avoided more confessional churches for precisely because of that reason. We are fallible, including our priests and bishops. While we must agree on the essentials of the Christian faith, I am suspicious of any church claiming they have the right answer to every question.
Love my Episcopal church!
@Calphool222. You can find it rude if you like. Completely up to you. But it’s not controversial to say that Episcopalians believe what they want to believe in Scripture and disregard the rest. It’s not really up for debate. Most Episcopalians I know wouldn’t bother to contest it, and frankly, they tend to find wholesale acceptance of the Bible (as divinely inspired) distasteful.
Way back in the 1920’s, Princeton’s J. Gresham Machen observed that Christian Liberalism (Mainline Protestantism) was, in truth, an entirely different religion:
“The Christian religion . . . is certainly not the religion of the modern liberal Church, but a message of divine grace, almost forgotten now, as it was in the middle ages, but destined to burst forth once more in God’s good time, in a new Reformation, and bring light and freedom to mankind.”
The Mainlines have only veered farther and farther left in the past 100 years. There is no longer any resemblance to historic Christianity. Why anyone would try to deny that is beyond me.
I grew up in the ELCA (a liberal Lutheran denomination). I had some of the sweet old church ladies in Bible Study or Sunday School from time to time. Their personal theology, such as it was, had far more in common with Hinduism than Christianity.
I was also on the HOBD listserve (House of Bishops and Deacons) during the period when the nascent ACNA was pulling away from the TEC. These elites, in the hierarchy of the Episcopal Church, reminded me far more of worldly politicians than leaders of the congregations of Christ. They mercilessly mocked their more conservative co-religionists without a hint of compassion for the parishes whose property they were basically stealing.
To be honest, I was expecting something more controversial and heated. I found this as a really great and honest conversation, and you can tell that father Mark is a pastor who has love for the people he’s been called to serve
I feel the same way about it. I thought it was going to much different but with Matt's nice guy nature and style of interviewing it gives off a very different vibe. Really a natural interviewer.
What you can tell immediately is that Mark is a homosexual and, without much effort, deduce his disordered theology is the consequence of his disordered sexuality. 100%
Just FYI, the official position of The Episcopal Church is that one must be baptized and repentant of one's sins before receiving Holy Communion. This canon is rarely, if ever, enforced, but it's still the official position of The Episcopal Church.
A rule, by definition, is not a rule if it is not enforced.
One wonders why this would be controversial. Why would someone who is not baptized want communion? Seems like if they want communion then they want to be baptized, which is easy to fix.
@@zestotemp because it is a false action to suggest unity. Regardless of denomination- no one should present them selves for communion without agreement to the doctrines held by the respective church.
@@patrickdean4853Exactly, one wouldn’t go to someone’s house and have dinner with them if they didn’t get along or didn’t agree on core principles.
Enforced by some parishes, though unfortunately, the churches I’ve been to have explicitly denied it. Yet another reason I left TEC
Matt…. I feel like you’re the best friend I’ve never met. You and Destin are incredible people and I feel very fortunate for having found both of you. Thanks.
I 100% agree - I was so happy to discover that Matt and Destin were buds.
Love your work, Matt, as always. Thankful for my Catholic faith. Offering a prayer that all lost souls find salvation through our Lord, Jesus Christ.
I have appreciated this conversation very much. Matt, thank you for doing these videos.
I look forward to your videos! You somehow make me examine my own faith and how I worship. I appreciate what you do!
Thanks Matt!
I appreciate the respect that you treat those who believe things differently than you to. So many people are polarized in a specific direction, probably well over 20,000 directions and do not know how to agree to disagree. Within my close family, these disagreements occur. Within a group of ladies formed to make an impact with the marginalized, will disagree. Disagreements are good, disrespect is not good. I am a Catholic and the hateful comments I see annd hear is appalling. I recognize that there are ministers who spend their time at the pulpit telling many mistruths about Catholics, the Catholic Religion and Catholic Faith. I find it sad, I recognize it as gossip and slander and it is unfortunate. We are not judge and jury and we should love all of our brothers. This includes our Muslim brothers, our Jewish brothers and sisters all, and we should adore our Christian brothers and sisters. I love how the individuals you interview are so sure in their faith that they can confidently answer any question, even troublesome questions, thoroughly and not defensively. I am NOT an Evangelical Protestant and previously believed I did not like them, in spite of everything I said before. The truth (as I see it) is that amidst all of the different faiths who worship GOD, there will be sheisters and cheats. Swindlers and liars, because we are all sinful humans and those people are everywhere. But, I follow your channel and watch most every video when I am notified that you have put one up. You have eliminated quite a few of my prejudices, and I thank you, sincerely, for that. Would that we all treated those we disagree with with the respect you give. Thank you.
Very kindly said. And transparent and is appreciated. I'm glad his videos have had you see those positive positions. I myself have every denomination in my family, and we all strive to get along and love eachother as Christ loves us. I like how you said, there are shiesters in every bunch, but you can see Jesus is the hearts of the ones who heartily follow Him and lead it that. Former Catholic, Non-denominational now, but love the richness of my tradional brothers and sisters, and truly God has been stirring my heart for some time and I desire the Liturgy, Creeds, and other things so much. I guess I'll say undecided right now. Comments like yours are what we need. Open and loving, honest and extending a hand. A bridge. Thanks brother or sister. God bless
Another great interview that keeps me thinking. Thanks for your work, Matt (and everyone else making this possible)!
He had me until "Hitler IS in heaven." I could understand "Hitler might be in heaven" for we cannot be the ones who stand in ultimate judgment. But to make the declaration that all go to heaven because of the work of Christ on the cross, then there would be no reason for all of the teachings of "I am the narrow gate."
Well said. This guy is a total shister.
My guess is he likes the trappings of an Episcopal church more than a Unitarian Universalist one
Narrow is the road and cramped the path leading off into salvation, and few are finding it.
He does follow it up by saying that God has done some kind of restorative justice, at some point in 'time' (not our time). That makes it less wild, I think
Christ is the narrow gate, the only way we may all enter. We can not enter in on our own, He is the way for all people. There is nothing contradictory there.
I think the most powerful parts of this video were “my faith convinces me to…” and “I don’t know” with a comfortable silence following.
Loved the video as always. I wonder Matt if you’ve thought of doing this kind of thing in the UK? I’d love to see you engage with someone over the Church of England. It’d combine your appreciation for Anglicanism with some additional questions around being a state church. We’re also going through a church-wide conversation about living in communion and difference which your take on would be great. I even know a priest theologian or two who would take you up on a conversation!
That gets a huge vote from me! Maybe also with a church here in the evangelical Protestant tradition which, from here in the UK, feels very different in character (and dare I say political colour) from the picture we get of the American Evangelical churches.
thumbs up to that, would be cool to see him travel to other countries (or maybe just a good zoom call) to talk with folks of other denominations from around the world.
What a lovely conversation. Thanks for giving us an example of how to be generous, kind, and caring to someone who (at the face) we may not agree with.
37:27 It took me a sec to realize but your question about "Is there any justice for what Hitler did?" was something that would have been a softball to most expressions of the Christian faith.
I grew up in a conservative evangelical church mega church environment. I’ve been totally disillusioned with the path many have taken in that environment - I have been researching the episcopal church over the past year and really appreciate these videos. Thank you!
Matt, I just gotta say your sweater game has really been on point these last two videos dude! lol
This man seems to be a humanist more than Christian. It seems he is doing what most people do, creating God in his own image. All his 'questions' that are presented as unanswerable, have answers in scripture. He is a traffic cop pointing the way to the wide road, unfortunately. I will be praying for Pastor Mark, that he would find and know the truth. He seems genuinely nice.
Great video. I came out of my chair a time or two but grateful for the perspective and repectful dialogue.
Matt your approach and the interview itself was sooooo educational!! He was so forthright in his explanations. While I hold to way different positions on the topics covered, He did a great job of verbally expressing the "statement of belief" as we call that for our small non-denominational bible chapel. We have a written statement of belief which as the lay pastor I get into the hands of all visitors. People should seek out this information and carefully consider these points, for as was stated---its way better for all involved not to force a square peg into a round hole (or to change the shape of the hole). I appreciate the work you put into your channel!
Would love to see you visit:
- a Western Rite Orthodox Church - St Patrick's Orthodox Church in Bealeton, Virginia would be super interesting;
- an Ordinariate Use Catholic Church - the Cathedral of Our Lady of Walsingham in Houston, Texas would be super interesting; and
- some monasteries.
35:30 Q: "So do you have anything called sin in your church? Is anything wrong? Is there justice in the universe?"
A: "There's a big wide spectrum and people believe different stuff......"
This right here is why Liberal Christianity never goes anywhere. People attach themselves to religious communities for many reasons, but a big one is to understand that there might be a higher, bigger picture than what us little individuals can see.
Liberal Christianity doesn't answer the questions that people go to church to find out answers to. So why go? I'd rather go to brunch, if nobody has any answers, since at least there will be some good food there.
100% True.
Liberalism isn't tethered to the word.
This homosexual and blasphemous man needs repentance.
I bet you google stuff and use the first couple of hits as “research”?
This is the very FIRST non conservative Minister that Matt has interviewed. Look how diverse the responses have been within the conservative churches .. the non-conservative is the same. Using labels like “liberal Christianity” so fiercely is just sad.
@@jamesellis1190
So you really don’t know that there is such a thing as “liberal Christianity “???
There is, and it has a particular definition.
It sounds like you’re the one just spitballing stuff.
Thank you for being willing to listen to other perspectives. We need more people willing to listen to other Christians and people of other faiths while remaining respectful.
As a catholic I find it hard to understand a christian that does not want to persuade anyone of their beliefs. Either you found the missing coin and communicate your joy to neighbors or you just don't really care about coins. If the Good News is just MY good news, why should I announce it to all creatures?
As an Episcopalian that converted from a Baptist tradition, I often joke that I evangelize now more than as an evangelical. I love my faith tradition, and I do want to share it with any and all. However, I don’t want to persuade people to my tradition just because I think it’s the best. They have to determine what’s best for them, they are the expert on themself-not me. And as much as I want people to join my tradition, I know that it’s not the right fit for all. I personally believe that God meets people through various traditions that meets them best in those moments. Episcopalian tradition won’t meet the needs of every person. The baptist church won’t meet the needs of every person. And the Catholic Church won’t meet the needs of every person. We offer the goodness we have, and if it’s not the best fit for you to connect with God at that time, then why would I try to persuade you into that?
@@mkmoore8999 I think you are totally missing the point. I don't believe in proselytizing, but I certainly believe in evangelizing. I believe that Jesus Christ is the answer to the human condition. I believe he is the incarnation of what God wants for humanity. I do not need to make a baptist a catholic or vice versa. But I consider catholicism has the best articulation and responds more fully to the Gospel. I absolutely want to persuade non christians and the world that the Gospel is the way forward towards God's dream for humanity.
It's probably just because persuade/persuasion sounds kinda sneaky/tricky.
Encourage is probably a better word, or encouraging change through example.
And this is one of the main things that caused me to leave Christianity as a teen. The idea that I need to go to people of other religions and tell them they are wrong and try to convert them to my beliefs. It just feels dirty. If a friend wants to know about my religion I will tell them, if not it doesn't make me any less of a Christian. As a Catholic I fully understand you will disagree and that's okay.
As an Anglican priest for over 30 years, as a professor of Anglican Theology, as the author of two books on Anglican Theology, I can say that Reverend Mark represents a very small minority within Anglicanism both historically and globally. Anglicanism, historically and globally, would align itself with orthodox, historic, Protestantism. ACNA was not created to "do its own thing." It was created to allow Anglicans in North America to continue doing what The Church had done for 2,000 years. It was people like Reverend Mark who want to "do their own thing." His presentation of Anglicanism is very dishonest.
He literally opens the video acknowledging he ignores the plain teaching of the (already heavily altered for modernity) BCP
He represents the mainstream of Anglicanism within the Church of England. The congregation of my church in central London would be very comfortable with him as our priest. I bet his sermons are great.
I am firmly Catholic, but I appreciate men like you who accurately represent their traditions, so that those who disagree can have honest conversations.
Yet the Episcopal Church is a part of the Anglican Communion. Is the ACNA?
What are the titles of your books?
This is a reasonably good primer on 'broad church' Episcopal theology, along with the earlier video. The conversation touched on "lex orandi lex credendi" with the discussion of communion and persuasion, and I believe the earlier video talked about the "three wheels" or "three legs". I wish that there had been more discussion of Incarnational Theology in regards to salvation and the historical commonality of universalism, as theologically liberal Episcopalians tend to focus on these things. But yes, what I see here is rather common to even my small church in Ohio. I wish he had followed your question about justice with a better answer, as human ideas about justice (usually equaling punishment) are not the same as God's justice (which is beyond human understanding). There can be an obsession with personal salvation in many Christian communities, but my position (and the position of many of my brothers and sisters) is that the grace of God has worked out salvation; it is our role to trust in and follow Jesus, to love God and neighbor, to repent our failings, and not to make ourselves anxious over it because God is love and God's forgiveness is so much greater than we can conceive. As the Episcopal Church collect for Good Friday says, "let the whole world see and know that things which were cast down are being raised up, and things which had grown old are being made new, and that all things are being brought to their perfection by him through all things were made, Jesus Christ our Lord". Amen.
Man this channel is fascinating! I had no idea this is what Episcopalians believe! I joined ACNA this year after growing up Presbyterian and I had no clue how different Episcopal beliefs were. I love this series so much!
Excellent video Matt! Your older Episcopal/Anglican videos helped me find my current church and build my faith.
Just because Scripture doesn’t tell us of the disciples being baptized, that doesn’t mean they weren’t. Christ clearly tells his apostles that baptism is a fundamental part of becoming his disciple, so it would be unfitting for them not to have been.
I am part of a mainline denomination which also believes that, on paper, baptism is "the way in". At the same time, I can also acknowledge that neither I nor the rules of the church are gatekeepers of God's table, nor of God's favor. So we say during Communion "let no rule of human creation" bar us from receiving Communion, "for it is Christ who invites us." If you are so moved, you partake.
totally agree, when i take communion if people are wanting and feel called to partake it should be embraced
Wow, what an interesting conversation! For my personality and fundamentalist Bible thumping background forced onto me since Preschool, Episcopal Churches are very appealing. I love Jesus, and want to express His love with my life. Church life can be SO complex. Fire and brimstone kind of preaching, being spoon fed the Word, etc. I like using my mind with my faith, and I feel that Episcopalians do too. Excited to not give up on Jesus as a whole! Thanks for making this!
Whoa, I have enjoyed the look into different churches. This one takes the cake for controversy, and I am not really sure how to respond. I am so thankful for God's call on my life which includes reverence for and adherence to His written word and not just to an example found in Christ Jesus while on this earth. I cherish the words in 1 John 5:13, "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life." And 1John 5:20, "And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true, and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." Keep up the good work !!
I want to understand more how he views the Bible. He seemed almost bothered by some of its terminology but then quoted it at times too.
He views the Bible in any way that suits him at the moment. He is a homosexual with a “husband” who preaches nothing by feelings and theological jibberish.
The part where yall discuss splitting churches just sounded like such a discussion of divorce and prenuptial agreements
I am an Episcopalian and came to the church because of its respect for the sacred mystery of God - from Creation through Redemption to Consumation. As a prophet once said, "My thoughts are not your thoughts..." (Isaiah 55).
Really engrossing conversation. I wonder sometimes if my faith would have held out if I'd been able to sit with the questions instead of being expected to accept dogmatic answers.
I appreciate this guys willingness to talk with you and we need conversation especially where there is disagreement, but this really confirmed that for me that Machen was right.
Who's Machen? Genuine question
calvinism is a farce and a cancer on christendom
@@alexpietsch7997 J. Gresham Machen
@@alexpietsch7997J. Gresham Machen was a defender of Christian orthodoxy in the early 20th century, who wrote the landmark book, "Christianity and Liberalism." It's worth a read and a re-read.
Great, I’m now listening to the audiobook of “Christianity and Liberalism” today. Thanks all.
I was raised as a catholic and in my younger years rebelled against the strict dogmatic approach towards church rules, theology and liturgy, which the Othordox church also has in their hierarchy,but when I look at some of the other Christians denominations nowadays and how each church, even within their own denomination, decide that they won’t follow this or allow that and even at times preach things that are diametrically opposed to God’s word and promote sin, it makes me realise that although I do not agree with the idea of a popes infallibility or a forceful authoritarian church leadership, there must be some binding agreement and strict following of traditions and theology otherwise we will just have thousands of mini popes trying to make their version of Christianity through their own interpretation of the Church fathers teachings. I pray for church unity one day under Christ our lord, amen ✝️
Well done Matt. I appreciate all you do. The world is a better place because of what you do. Cheers!
Really great interview here. I appreciate the respect and decency shown on both sides. I'm in favor of a follow up to game this out further.
Matt, that was a valiant effort to find a single thread that would tie this man to orthodoxy. You were very kind to him. Unfortunately, this is just the hollow carcass of a church. Normally I find something that I can say amen to in your conversations. I couldn’t in this one.
Pastoring has become even more difficult because of "pastors/priests" like this.
A complete rejection of the scripture.
How does one become saved?
Mat 16:24, "Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me."
Romans 10:9-10; John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Acts 2:38; Romans 6:23; Etc.
People, is does not matter what you, I or anybody else thinks or says.
The response is simple, "Here is what scripture says."
My goal is not to be hurtful or mean spirited, but for all his talk of "following Jesus" the conga line he is following/leading does not have Jesus at the front. He seemed earnest his feeling and perceiving a reality of the Triune God, but his words betrayed that he is not letting God be the Lord of his life. I am praying for that to change.
I am thankful Mark was open and vulnerable enough to have this video discussion, and thanks to Matt for these types of thought provoking videos.
I was waiting for the tension but it did not happen. Great interview!
I have to say I found this conversation a little confusing compared to my expectations from your intro. I expected a big showdown about 'liberal' expressions of Christianity, maybe Biblical authority and things like that, but most of the conversation is about... how to deal with denominational splits? Maybe it's just me but that seemed a bit tangential
Hitler in heaven? WOW! My father helped to save many people from Hitlers evil. If he were living right now, he would be insensed by that comment.
Matt, I appreciate your willingness to have an open dialogue with those across the spectrum of Christianity. I am a former Episcopalian and it is a large tent, indeed. The church I attended as a child and young man was both evangelical and charismatic, and more aligned with the beliefs/practices of the ACNA church you visited a while back. While I disagree with several of Rev. Mark’s positions, your respectful tone towards each other sets the bar for those seeking dialog and understanding over condemnation.
For communion At least in my church/diocese CFL it comes from the BCP. As with ELCA Lutherans there is a general confession, prayer prayed before communion. Also we are supposed to be praying daily and so on and reading, marking and inwardly digesting scriptures daily and praying before worship, and doing the same. You’re actually supposed to come in a little early kneel or sit and observe the holy silence, and pray that the lessons will come in to you. It’s really quite wonderful. UNFortunately, in today’s world a lot of people don’t do that but that’s a story for another day. I wonder if the entertainment church mentality had anything to do with that. The priest will give the invitation to come to the table to receive communion for the Eucharist, which basically means Thanksgiving it’s not some evil Catholic term. Period. The invitation says that all baptized Christians are invited to come forward for communion, and then says that if they haven’t been baptized, they should cross their arms in front, signaling that they would prefer a blessing instead, the worship bulletin will also say this. This is sort of an equivalent to an alter call, but not exactly the same. Prayers are said after the service and you meet with the clergy afterwards on the way out.
Great series. Keep it up
28:30 How you describe this is really great - "a peacetime document"
This guy is way liberal. Is he a Christian? I do not think so, but that is my opinion.
it is an objective fact that he is not a Christian.
I’m an LCMS Lutheran (sad that I even have to put the LCMS part but I don’t want to be associated with sparkle Creeds lol) so I disagree with 95% of what this guy is saying. He shouldn’t even be a pastor. There’s parts of the Bible that he’s completely ignoring so what other parts is he ignoring? That’s not how you preach the Bible. Church shouldn’t make you “feel good” about your sins and If you’re not preaching Christ crucified than what are you even doing?
The other part he doesn’t want to discuss would be the homosexual thing. Evidently, he has a “husband”. Sadly, Predicable. Regardless, couldn’t agree with you more.
@@patrickdean4853 That’s the part of the Bible I was talking about that he’s completely ignoring.
@@DavidLeatherwood1517 "that part of the bible he's ignoring" being like five random verses or what?
@@Hobbit9797 nothing in the Bible is random.
This was a fantastic conversation and even at 43:24 was way too short. We need more of this kind of thing; where people have honest conversations where they are more interested in understanding one another and finding points of commonality instead of contention, not just as fellow Christians but in the larger world as well.
I think if you feel some of your questions might have seemed off-putting, it's not so much that Rev Mark found them that way as it is that questions that perhaps seem like they would be simple are actually quite complicated for us Episcopalians. There is quite a broad range of belief and of understanding within the Episcopal Church, and we pride ourselves in that. And we are loath to tell anyone that we have all the answers and that our way is the only way.
25:01 I am perplexed by this statement. The defining difference between Protestantism and Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, is that Protestants root gospel unity in the Gospel and not in doctrinal distinctions. To call something “silly” is interesting. I’m curious to know what this man would say those silly things are.
Not wishing to put words in his mouth, but I can think of an example of a church that split because of an argument between 2 brothers (in the physical, rather than the spiritual, sense of that word) the brothers had a family feud and, as a result, eventually their whole church split...
When churches split over doctrinal issues it can be very sad, but these can be understood. But the church should be bigger than a petty family feud.
Does that make sense?
It was certainly the idea that first came into my head when I heard Rev. Mark say that...
@@df6957, hey! That makes sense to me. Im reformed baptist, so I am well aware of church splits for trivial matters. My concern however, is with what he calls silly? When differences between conservative Christian’s and more liberal Christian’s like this come together, I find that those things are not all too “silly” at times. I don’t want to put words in his mouth either. I think that is noble and charitable of you.
My mind is wondering, I suppose.
Imagine how difficult it would be to grow your membership at a health gym, where if somebody walks in and ask, “how do I join your gym,” you didn’t have a direct answer for them but instead you said, “let’s have a conversation about what you’re feeling right now…”
Love this!
What a balanced talk
Speaking to my current experience at Duke Divinity as an ordinand of the Global Methodist Church. I’m having these talks with the other side.
I think this was a very polite and respectful conversation, and I applaud that. I am very concerned with several things Reverend Mark said, most specifically when he said that he didn't know if there was any justice and resolution for the Holocaust. I'm neither a theologian nor a philosopher, but hasn't Rev. Mark boxed himself in? If God forgives the heinous crimes of Hitler but doesn't necessarily resolve them or provide justice, that would make God unjust and therefore imperfect, and therefore not God.
If his position is universalism, then there's nothing more I can add to what seems to me to be a pretty open-and-shut case that universalism is not a biblical doctrine. On the other hand, I find it worrisome that someone who is in his position did not immediately say that yes there was resolution for it in that Jesus Christ took the price of ALL sin onto Himself on the cross.
To quote Will Weedon (yep that's right): Uh uh uh uh, baby! He said the sins of the WORLD. There is no sin that was not fully paid for by Christ on the cross.
Surely as Christians, we must all agree that Christ is the entirely propitiating sacrifice whereby humanity's debt of sin was fully and completely paid for. "It is accomplished."
If we say other than that, I fear we make Christ a liar, and certainly He is not a liar.
21:15 How does he go about "speaking the truth in love" if he also says "who am I to say what it means to be a Christian?"?
His whole message is basically saying "I'm here to help people find their own truth". I'm not really sure what Jesus has to do with any of it other than Jesus being some kind of embodiment of whatever you want a higher power to be.
I recently became 7 Day adventist, and thought maybe it would be a good follow-up video to the others that you've already done with established Seventh-Day adventist.
"Obviously, I'm gay." I honestly didn't even notice.
I was thinking that too! What are the obvious signs here? Maybe something from earlier before they started recording I guess.
That’s pretty funny it’s one of the first things I thought in the first video. The “liberal” thing probably prepped me for the assumption. Maybe I’m just more judgey 🤷🏽
@@fr.jeremiahcaughran6191 I think he wears his wedding ring on his right hand.
Orthodox Christians wear their wedding ring on their right hand as well.
@@fr.jeremiahcaughran6191 - it was his speech mannerisms. Pretty obvious right from the start.
I kept hoping for more sparks. I do remember Verna Dozier, who was very popular back in the day when I was a director of religious education in the episcopal church, and I think her ideas have been catastrophic. But I'm a little upset that the Church of England kept the Catholic Church's buildings when they left.
What do you make of Priest and his answers? Do you mean sparks as in conflict?
@DrGero15 yeah, I guess I thought a little repartee would be entertaining. I thought Priest was rather spot on, if I remember correctly after several nights' sleep. Oops. I was remembering a different video. I wish Matt had asked for more reasons for the priest's responses, which seem rooted in Rogerian therapy more than anything else.
15 minutes into how to be a Christian and not one time was Christ mentioned. Maybe he needs to rethink his beliefs.
I appreciate these videos. They shed light on the varieties of Christian denominations in the country, and it's super easy to see why Christianity is fading... 0 confidence. 0 speaking with authority. 0actual Biblical answers. When you're not rooted in anything there's nothing to hold on to.
I come from a tradition which has become similar in many regards to St. Marks. I have reconciled it in my mind by viewing the church as a big family. Sometimes families agree, sometimes they disagree, but no matter what they are family. Sometimes i strongly disagree with my family but i love them anyway.
There will also be sects among you, that those of you who are approved may be made manifest.
Big thank you- I've been really getting into these interviews you're doing. I think it's awesome to have a straightforward way of understanding various Christian denominations. Also, are you former military? Looked like you were at parade rest the whole time lol.
If Jesus wanted unity, why are there so many Christian churches today all believing different things?
Because they are different expressions of His one church. For those in right belief, we are unified IN Jesus.
@@calebneff5777 But what does it mean "right belief" when so many other Christians think that theirs is the "right belief"?
@2Uahoj because the things we disagree on largely are fairly minor (major to those on oposing sides of an issue but minor in the grand scheme of things), and we agree on the core values as put forth in the creeds.
I heard this phrase when I was in college: "We are called to unity, not uniformity." I think that echoes some of the replies here.
However I also like NT Wright's statement (and I am paraphrasinghere): I think that if Paul was writing to the church today he would be concerned not only with the lack of unity in the church, but with how little many care about the lack of unity.
There will also be sects among you that those who are approved may be made manifest.
The episcopal church prays for forgiveness of sin as part of liturgy before the Eucharist is served. It involves confession and absolution and is beautifully written.
Hey Matt, I love your informative videos. Any chance we could see one on the Names of God? I can't seem to find any sort of definition around the differences between YAWH, Adonai, I Am...understanding these seems critical to understanding the Bible.
Thank you so much for this one. I am a gay Catholic in a more conservative parish. I found this video informative, and a bit of a soothing balm.
With every question, Mark just got further and further from anything resembling Christianity. I'm Catholic, and seeing this guy speak about Christ's Church and how blatantly he is ignoring what God wants is very frustrating. This video made me have more respect for the Protestant view by showing me how much worse it COULD be..
I’m making this comment halfway in as a conservative Catholic, but I don’t understand why someone would stay in something like this and practically reject “Go and make disciples of all nations.”
I really enjoyed the way that both of you handles this discussion.
Although I must admit I do wonder if these two videos should be in the learning about other religions rather than the church unity playlist.
The degree of variation in theology in the Anglican church here is Australia is really quite impressive and though it hasn't had a split like in the USA it is certainly possible. Though perhaps getting less likely as the liberal churches are declining and the conservative churches are growing. Could be something to do with needing to follow Jesus becoming pretty irrelevant if we are all going to be forgiven anyway.
Do all Episcopal or Anglican priests believe and preach universal salvation such as this priest seems to be implying? It sounds almost as if he doesn’t believe you can ever fully reject God of your own free will. Although perhaps thats not what he meant and I am reading way too much into what was said.
No, they definitely do not!
So revealing an interview. I now understand an example of liberalism. It seems to be “I’ll follow the dream of God, but only the parts I am comfortable with”
Thank God I'm catholic!
Yes, the only Church established directly by Jesus Christ.
Yeah because it’s well known that the RCC have no liberal in it🤨
I’m Christian
@@dennissprague2572 I'm glad
That was hard to watch. But several times while watching, you asked a sneaky well thought out question, when i thought the conversation was not moving forward. You helped guide the dialog which painted a fantastic picture of what this guy believes vs what a born again Christian believes. I saw this main distinction: the gospel message vs traditions and beliefs to make you feel good. This guy unfortunately doesn't know the gospel and what it means to know Christ and be saved.
Also he only quoted the bible once, it almost seemed like he was trying to avoid talking about anything to do with the bible, sounds like he doesn't know what it says
Rev. Mark is far from the norm for Christians who believe in following traditions in worship, be they Anglican, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Catholic, or Orthodox.
A part of me also felt like maybe he was afraid to answer Matt's questions. Like he didn't want to cause an argument or dissension in their conversation. He seemed to hesitate in his response and turned it around into a question back. But church leaders shouldn't be afraid, especially given the setting and Matt's deep patience with interviewing. I love his videos and especially his podcasts, very approachable and relatable.
As for traditions, I agree with you there. It seems like his portrayal of beliefs was very loosely connected to some form of tradition, but as long as everyone is happy. In Matt's other interviews of different denominations, it was a lot easier to see what the traditions actually were.
Great video! I love comparison.
I have visited many episcopal churches. Some are high church some are low, some adhere to orthodox faith as described in the Common Book of Prayer, others like this gentleman take a different interpretive approach. That’s the beauty of Anglicanism to me as an orthodox Christian, the diversity, even if at times as he alluded to its inherently difficult and sometimes tragic and frustrating
Great Show Matt! I wanted to comment on the Hitler in hell thing. The way I look at it, Jesus doesn’t care when you come to the harvest, as long as you come. The reward for those who came at the beginning is the same as the reward for those who came late, even if it didn’t come till the moment that he swallowed that pill in a bunker. Only God can see into a soul and know if you chose him or if you chose hell. I don’t know exactly what God’s justice looks like for Hitler, but I know it doesn’t look like man’s justice.
Wow. A man (and possibly his church, and possibly his entire faith tradition) who is not confident that heaven is a great place to be or that there is justice for sin and evil. I wonder, if I believed these things, how that would change my life... I have to believe Mark has faith that there is justice but can't articulate what that looks like. If I didn't believe that at all, I think it would make life a little too hopeless.
I'm Episcopalian and disagree with so much of what he said.
I remember a Catholic priest tell me once the difference between protestants and catholics was that if protestants were unhappy they changed churches, if Catholics were unhappy they just stayed home. In my case i left and joined a wonderful Episcopal church that is open to everyone, no exceptions.
The priest was largely correct- why would a Catholic trade down when they can just sit out the inning. I get being pissed at the Catholic Church, but most intuitively recognize that Protestants have created a Christianity that suits their personal tastes- regardless of the facts.
I was Catholic, then atheist for 15 years and now Catholic again. So it varies by person
Matt you are doing a great job we are learning a lot about the other denominations. Im sure it was hard going to the devil playground at that church. I pray that reverend comes back to christ and stops this nonsense.
Sometimes unity is not good. And is actually bad. Listening to a progressive grip about schisms when they're categorically the ones innivating is bizarre, beinf gaslit in the extreme.
Agnostic here. I've really wanted to get into liberal Christianity, specifically because I just don't know where I stand. Oddly enough, though, I can never take the plunge precisely because liberal Christianity seems so open as to not really believe in anything. As a result, I find myself wondering what the point would even be. I dunno. Just my two cents.
I find it interesting that the Episcopalian can quote the "Talking Heads" but doesn't quote Scripture.
Grew up Freewill Baptist and now Episcopalian.. I have to say you get way more scripture in an Episcopalian service than most nonliturgical ones. A large chunk of all 4 (OT, NT, Psalms and the gospel) is read in each service
I appreciate that Rev. Mark was so articulate about his and his church's position on so many fundamental things. I may disagree with many of those positions but I see the heart of it and that is awesome. I really appreciate your sharing this journey of exploring other churches and the theological differences in this body of Christ. Bless you and yours Matt.
They don’t really have any positions anymore - that’s why people are fleeing that denomination… it’s no longer Christianity they are preaching.
@@patrickdean4853Who made you a judge?
We should not tolerate priests such as these. We must never hate them, but we must never tolerate this. He is more aligned with political liberal theology than Christian theology. He finds it a graver sin to be a gatekeeper than to be a false teacher. They is not Biblical and that is not Christlike. Christ taught that the world will hate us, and this is the reason. Because we MUST stand at the line and must never bend.
Who is "we" here?
@@drpete8542 Actual Christians.
You should go to First Universalist in Providence Rhode Island.
A place where you can believe absolutely anything 😂
@@patrickdean4853 No universalist believe the Bible and the Winchester Profession of 1803.
amazed by your patience. But I trust that letting this man say nonsensical and self-contradictory things is its own apologetic against radical progressive Christianity.
I'm tapping out at 13 mins in.
If you can't answer the "How do I become a Christian?" question directly, I don't know what to say. The response of "That, for me, is a troublesome question." made me literally lol.
These people aren't Christian, in that they don't follow Christ. You can tell they don't follow Christ, because they don't believe what he said. Technically speaking, they don't follow the Apostle's (Nicene) creed.
In fact, they aren't even "close" (if that term actually means anything). They have the right building, the right clothes (if there are such things), and from the outside they look the same. But these people don't know the I AM who said he is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and there is no way to the Father except through him.
I can't help but be reminded about Paul's rant in 2 Timothy 3, all of the later NT on false teachers, or Jesus' own words when he told the group that did all these "good" things for him that he never knew them!
Interesting conversation on understanding how a progressive Episcopal priest approaches his faith. I don’t agree with the views he presented, and that approach is a departure from the historic Faith still practiced by groups as diverse as the RCC and SBC. However, the conversation was genuinely illuminating.
Just an observation:
I think that putting aside the differences of liberal vs conservative, I think that there is an additional layer of difference between Anglicans/Catholics and post-Great Awakening Protestants. Whereas Protestants are Bible-heavy and emphasize doctrine as the key pillar or unity, Anglicans and Catholics tend to see theology as a three-legged stool of: tradition, scripture, and experience (different factions emphasizing each leg differently)
So, where Matt defaults to phrasing things in the language of "agree" or "disagree" in a cognitive propositional sense, he can often not fully appreciate the degree to which another tradition is emphasizing another leg and engaging with their tradition in perspectival, procedural, and/or participatory terms; rather than propositional terms.
Thanks for the comment. I think I understand the differences you're talking about quite clearly, but the reason I chose to use the language I did in this video is because we're talking about such very basic things and arriving at different conclusions or at least very different ways of articulating those conclusions. It's rare that the distinction is so obvious at the surface level.
@MattWhitmanTMBH And thank you for the comment! I appreciate how both respectful and honest you are in these videos, which is why I keep watching them. I guess I am interested in what Father Mark would have answered had you asked the question: "How important are theological conclusions AT ALL to what it means to be Episcopalian, relative to other aspects of religion? (sacraments, traditions, relationships, etc)."
Again, as an observation and definitely not a critique: the very fact that a propositional difference of theological CONCLUSION (I want italics) is for you so intuitively noteworthy says something about the emphasis your tradition puts on conclusions relative to processes. (And no, I am not de-emphasizing the liberal/conservative variable, simply adding more variables of note)
Again, NOT a critique. I understand completely that the things that stand out to you also stand out to your audience. I love what you do!
@@joshbedford4889 those are excellent thoughts. Thank you.
"Who am I?" Umm you're the priest. Lack of pastoral clarity and responsibility does not make better Christians.
It's frustrating that a reverend of a church that claims to represent Christ on this earth cant answer direct questions crucial to the faith without reframing them to fit his own theological definitions. If anything this is a good example of where the church can go wrong. In the end Jesus will judge and separate the goats from the sheep. Matt you did a great job.
Not judging this guy, but on the surface - from what he himself asserts - he's not a Christian. Wish it were otherwise, but his ideas depart from the Lord's pretty clearly.
Liberal Christianity is saltless (Luke 14:34,35).