I realise I came across a little more intense or bothered in this video than I really am. Obviously I'm just talking about a comic book character and it's all for fun in the end. People have been asking me to emote or engage more during my videos and this was my attempt to do that. Sorry if it comes across as weird as a result. If you are thinking about purchasing comics in the future consider using my affiliate marketing link here to help support the channel: amzn.to/2Vxyn5N
I'd want to ask, why did you assume that the Presence counted as one of the gods that has walked the Earth? I'd actually ask one thing: Has the Presence ever actually... Walked on the Earth? I'm genuinely not sure.
He's walked the Earth several times particularly in the New 52 Phantom Stranger. I actually referenced that comic in this video. It's not an assumption to say that a being constantly referred to as a god is a god lol.
The problem with creating all these abstract god like beings is that every author wants to put their own spin on them. And what ever comic their featured in will have prominence over the others. For example I'm sure that if Lucifer ever came into a book staring the new gods he would suddenly be no match for the power of the Source. Also the notion of an All-powerful force for good might lead to some deus ex machina endings that no one likes.
One writer "I want to put a representation of a one all powerful God in my comic" then another writer comes around "I want to make the most powerful villain ever so he needs to kill the representation of God someone before me made" and it could really become a perpetuating cycle which is just a consequence of need for new and greater threats in a single continuity
@@danielscalera6057 Honestly I think that if someone wants to portray a creator being in media they should automatically say that said being is just an avatar of the writters ect. Make it so its explains the creation of the universe and have it be impossible to go beyond it. Because then whats the point of calling it God if its not the true one above all? ""Unless specifically specified"" The point of a creator being is to be the beginning and the end. Existence itself you should not just be able to punch it, hell you should not be able to ""kill it"" without erasing everything itself. I think some writters go too much with the bible version of the creator and dont look at the other versions in mythologies. Its not always a being its sometimes a incomprehensible force.
I think a lot of people miss the point of the Lucifer and presence story. The presence tells lucifer he had a similar relationship with his creator. Part of it was making your own choices and to ascend past your beginnings.
The writer of thecomic explained it actually. By "external forces" he didn't mean that he was literally made by other beings, he already existed, he just adopted the persona these other forces thought of him. The Presence is omnipotent. He just splits his power to different beings.
@@ΔημήτρηςΚολυτάς Correct I'd dont know why people dont get that or understand that. It been stated and claimed many time that The Presence has many aspects. One of The aspects is The Writer that only one he got many. The Presence itself is also an aspect to the Superior God. Now this video got alot of good information . But Pralaya is the Embodiment of pure Darkness.
@@gabrielhughes8221 When was it stated that Yahweh's aspect is the writer? I've been seeing a lot of claims that The Presence is meta with no evidence to support that.
Glad to see someon go into DC lore so much. TBH this is why I like dc, so many powerful beings and such nice and expansive pantheons. Honestly I find the verse super interesting. Ty for bringing it to me in such a well done way!!! Keep up the awesome work man!
True. When Superman first came into being. The writers kept making up all sorts of new super powers for him on the fly, or so I've heard. Meaning that, essentially, Superman could miraculously possess one kind of superpower which he uses in one comic book story and yet never uses it again, nor has he ever used said power again. Cough, super ventriloquism, cough.
Silk Man also said iirc that there will be other creations and other makers which should further indicate that The Presence isn't supreme or omnipotent (Imo there isn't omnipotence in fiction, but whatever).
I read comics every now and then, I like DC comics stuff as much as the next guy, but never bothered looking into all this, just reading those as stories. But I really like your approach, your research is much appreciated, sat through the whole video without pausing or skipping, really well done.
I really wish DC would create an actual hierarchy of their Cosmic beings. They just keep adding new ones without clearly defining their role, let alone how they fit into the existing hierarchy.
I have never before come across a channel that has videos of this quality and so few subscribers. I still haven't watched one of your videos and left dissapointed. Ridiculously good videos.
Since you mentioned in the video you wanted to know if you changed anyone's mind with this, I want to say you actually did with me. I had really enjoyed your Mordru video but had been a little skepetical about the veracity of some of the scaling with The Presence because I had always thought it was supposed to be this invincible, all knowing, all powerful being in DC cosmology. I think the whole "look at the argument holistically" was a really good point to put in there. I had actually felt like nitpicking the blight example because till now I had interpretted as a empty boast considering the angel he had said it too was claiming the opposite if I recall, but considering the context, the weight of other super clear examples of The Prescence being fallible from other comics, and the implications of his origin what the Blight said made perfect sense.
Writers/Final Heaven>Overvoid>Prallaya She's still on the overvoid just like everything else Superman is the real supreme being of DC (excluding The Eonimous) -no seriously he made a video on it-
Would it be possible for you to make a video ranking the strongest characters published in DC? I have seen your cosmology video but I would love a more in depth scope of the residents of these realms especially how the various residents of the godsphere scale to one another.
The same thing can be said with The One Above all but maybe to a lesser extent. I think writers do this by accident while trying to hype up an upcoming threat saying “not even god himself can destroy it” but then you automatically debunk the supreme being that they are not indeed omnipotent or all powerful. Whether they do this on purpose or not it doesn’t matter. It happened in a comic and cannot be ignored.
WebCamParrot oh great you answered. Thanks! What do you think of Imaginary Axis’ video on the subject? Also who’s your favorite comic book character? I’m guessing Super man
My favourite comicbook character is Constantine and I don't remember the IA video in great detail but I basically thought it was utterly wrong on everything except the most basic facts. It is entertaining and well made though.
WebCamParrot Either way I really enjoy your content. Your Post Crisis Super man video and Doctor Doom Video are favorites. You really put respect on these characters’ names. I remember watching Comics vs the world’s video on Post crisis Superman and comparing it to your video he kinda downplayed him a lot.
Most people do downplay him. I even downplayed him pretty significantly in the video. I now know that everything I said in that original post crisis Superman video was performed by a Superman that was holding back massively. I went into far higher end stuff with my Spawn vs Superman video but even then I excluded a lot of stuff like hax that Superman has.
The most powerful being in the DC universe is the customer, you know... the people who actually pay for DC content. If there was no customer, there would be no DC universe. It's sort of a meta-narrative cop-out to say this, but it's true.
Really liking your DC vids my man! You should do a ranking of the most powerful beings in DC later down the line when you analyze all these beasts powers
The reason people claim that is because big comic book channels like Variant and Comic Drake had stated this in one of their videos. Since people feel like they can rely on them,this myth grows.
There are still people that say that was a “fake” presence. Even though in the same story ellaine Belloc who had the presences power and was serving as the narrator acknowledged that entity as the presence.. also that it was never revealed to be a fake presence. It was also shown going to Raphael begging him to help cleanse the contamination of azazels blade.. which is what we saw Gabriel stab him with 😂
you have truly changed my perspective and educated the ignorant, thank you for fixing many years of damage done by people who blow his power out of proportion
I know you said at the end you wouldn’t make another video on the presence, but after seeing this one I’d really love to see a video covering the feats and power of the presence. I think it’d be cool to see where he stands and some of the power he actually does possess. Good work on this video by the way
14:05 This theory is further confirmed in the latest Lucifer comics, during a discussion between Odin and Lucifer. In it, Odin points out that Lucifer's domain is a new, young one - and Lucifer replies by stating that it retroactively has always existed. +/- If we extrapolate outward from this, well - you get the idea.
@@lucifermorningstar.3622 Darn good question. I mean, you still did intimidate Dream of the Endless. And the Presence is still a power to be reckoned with... That said, I'd argue the power of both of them is... More fluid and metaphorically based than strict and stable and stagnant?
@@TheLostArchangel666 It would also depend on the writers with CAS, Mandrakk, and Perpetua I feel as though the time of my demise and capitulation is nigh. It seems as though now there are also more than characters capable of eradicating Heaven with a single motion. But you what, so be it. I accept my inevitable doom but I guess really is just up to the writers now.
@@lucifermorningstar.3622 Oh dear samael, you have a lot to learn about yourself. You were never samael to begin with. You thought you knew your true self? You have ventured between multiverses. You have vast knowledge about everything around you but you never ventured deeply within yourself. You never self inquired because of your deep sense of vanity. Your father merely gave you names, memories, thoughts, emotions and feelings. But he never told you that you are not them. Your identity is only accumulation of all past memories, thoughts and so on. Yet you are not them. You are not your identity. Why do you say " I have an identity" but never say " I am the identity"? Inquire yourself deeply and you'll realize what you actually are. Edit : just a chill conversation with your favourite character that you embody 😏
I stopped seeing the presence as all-powerful when the weakening monitor Rox Ogama implied that he wounded the presence in final crisis. Not surprisingly, there was more evidence from previous tie in issues that proved he was actually hurt, if not dead.
I remember a lot of people denying that scan and saying that it was Darkseid who died. That's strange for Darkseid to own the Pax Dei army, Spectre, and the Radiant.
@@imsobored124 Radiant explained in Final crisis Revelations that she and the spectre can only be killed if the presence (god) is dead...In the final issue of final crisis, we see the bodies of both the spectre and Radiant drained and possibly lifeless further confirming that it was the presence not Darkseid.
@@imsobored124 can you then explain why the Pax Dei army of angels were described as vengeful during the final battle? What were they avenging other than their fallen god? Yes, Mandrakk drained their powers... Which is essentially killing god's vengeance and mercy. The spectre is only the spectre because of his powers, without it, he's basically a dude wearing a cape.
@@imsobored124 "you assumed" no mate, that's not enough. Why didn't the angel's also help during other crisis? Mandrakk said he left the "dying god" not dead god. The presence could have survived the attack who knows? All we know is that he was left in such a state that aspects of him could be essentially killed. Also, Rox Ogama was banished and was weakening as a result. The lanterns were able to kill him because he was a lot more weaker than when he previously infected ultraman and the miracle machine also helped.
@@imsobored124 Grant Morrison always refers to the presence as "god" in all his stories except the context is different which in this case wasn't, as in the next panel mandrakk brags about draining the spectre and radiant (servants of God as he described) who by the way aren't agents of Darkseid but the presence. Radiant and spectre getting drained is more than enough proof if you consider the the statement the radiant made in final crisis revelations...it wasn't a random statement, it was supposed to lead up to that moment. About the army of angels, Think about it- why would the angel's be vengeful if they weren't affected by Mandrakk? Your argument of them randomly appearing to fight mandrakk while vengeful doesn't add up...at all!
I feel like the problem with characters like The Presence is that they were intended to be omnipotent when they were created, but are altered by later authors to fit the story. The original Lucifer comics imply that there is nothing beyond The Presence, yes The Great Darkness was its equal, but they are like to sides of the same coin. Then later stories retcon that but saying that those characters to fit the narrative.
Could not disagree with you more. You either mean two things by omnipotence the first defintion meaning boundless unstoppable without limit ect and the second definition a being of great power or influence. The Presence is clearly the latter so you must be referring to the former. The version of The Presence you are likely referring to as "intended to be omnipotent" is from Lucifer 2000 I am going to assume consdering that's his first real time he is referred to as "The Presence". The first mistake you are making is that you think he was portrayed as omnipotent (first definition) in that comic which he never ever was and he even tells us himself, several times that he is not without limitations in this exact comic. The second mistake is you thinking that this somehow supersedes any of his other appearances for no reason and that it's later authors faults for ruining his omnipotence or whatever in their stories with things like the Great Darkness. Great Darkness first appearance: Swamp Thing Vol 2 issue 49 1986 The Presence's first actual appearance as The Presence: Lucifer volume 1 issue 1 2000 You should abandon these preconceived assumptions you have.
@@WebCamParrot I think you are misunderstanding me, I wasn't trying to say that the character of the Presence is omnipotent in a way shape or Form. I wanted to point out that comic book characters can change over time, this is due to the medium. Even if the original character is intended to be omnipotent (or nigh omnipotent in the case of the Presence) future writers will always interpret them differently and alter things to keep the plot interesting. Even editors won't be able to keep a one hundred percent consistent Canon. I didn't mean to disagree with your well researched video essay, I just wanted to point out, that from a narrative perspective omnipotent comic book characters are inherently flawed as active characters.
I wasn't under the misconception that you thought that. You were saying that The Presence was initially intended to be omnipotent, which as I just pointed out, is simply not true.
@@WebCamParrot who do you think is the strongest in DC? Some people say the writers but penny wise and other characters from different universes scale above their own authors which wouldn’t make too much sense.
Can you do a video on The Decreator, The Endless, and Lucifer? I've been reading and hearing so many people on Reddit give out misinformation about these three characters *constantly* People literally think The Endless can be destroyed... their avatars can but they can never truly be rid of since they are fundamental to all realities, regardless of immortality, etc.
@@cngotham4111 No Darksiders true self has died. When I say everything I mean literally everything has to stop living for them to "Die". They just move on really
My favorite story point with the Presence is that when he created the First of the fallen as his companion and conscience, the First deemed him insane and disobeyed his commands. i just love such an interesting ideé that the Presence was deemed insane by his first creation who's job was to be his conscience. Makes me wonder if the First is still a part of the Presence?
A bit late but.. yes, TFOTF is still a part of The Presence, or at least his 'plan'. Lucifer is the only being in all of DC ever, to create a Multiverse outside of his fathers grip
Would really enjoy if you made a video about The Leviathan of Stories. It's really interesting and not a lot of people have much understanding of it. Also, I just really enjoy your videos, so yeah... dedicated Leviathan of Stories video? Please?
I love DC but wish they'd put out some lorebooks Star Wars style; filled with trivia and thoroughly explained things. I wanna know what happened to the Black Racer before and after Willy Walker (Hehehe, Walker). Also... Blight? You met my boy Antagon? What was I talking about... Oh yeah great vid man!
Lol I'm so confused who's actually the most powerful character in DC. There's characters who go beyond the presents apparently but Lucifer was below the presents yet Lucifer is considered like the second most powerful character in DC. So what is Lucifer like the 6th most powerfuless character?
@@cngotham4111 Exactly, thank you 😂. I go on one page and they say, "There is nothing Beyond the presence and he is the most powerful" and I go to another saying" Presence is trash" 😂😂😂
I was going back and forward between your dc videos and I was wondering how close Dr manhattan scaled to the presence am I right to think since a full power animal man has better feats and animal man is comparable to lucifer, that presence should be stronger than dr manhattan?
@@nelosparda4798 DC also use a Omniverse. Hell go read up on Scott Snyder cosmology about Perpetua. In fact both Marvel and DC fans and fanboys alike knows there a Omniverse.
@@nelosparda4798 For your kind information read comics, Perpetua stated ''In the greater Omniverse among all her brothers and sisters tending the infinite Multiverses within, no being was more feared more reviled'' DC has an actual Omniverse that is infinite in size and is filled with an unknown number of Multiverses.If the DC main Multiverse has only 52 main Universes, there is also a Dark Multiverse where infinite number of Universes are created and destroyed. Each Dark Universe is born from a possibility. The possibility of something being in a certain way. But it falls upon the World Forger to choose which Dark Universe is placed on standby just in case a main Universe is destroyed and needs to be replaced. While destroying any Dark Universe that will lead to only chaos and destruction.And if that was not enough, outside the Multiverse there is something called Hypertime. Hypertime is where endless number of Universes exist. Basically any possible Universe has already happened, is happening, and will happen, within Hypertime.
@@nelosparda4798 lmao you sounds to me like a Marvel fan inside a greater overdosed fanboy xD I'm done with you dude.... You need to read comics even there are many comics where Omniverse is referred. I love both DC/Marvel and even anime too but the fact is you need to just read DC comics...
The DC comics are weird because I have scans and quotes saying the presence is omnipotent and saying the void and the overvoid consist inside the presence it’s confusing
And I don’t know if the evil thing is the presence because the real presence said he could easily kill lucifer and Michael and the evil presence seemed very weak and needed others
First They nerfed the One Above All and now they nerfed The Presence, this is basically a reminder that NO CHARACTER is greater and more powerful than the writer himself, be it Stan Lee or Jack Kirby or any other writer.
@@Lugent25 The they ignore the fact doomsday can't be Killed by superman and they done superman kill him a lot of times only beaucase of his Protagonism,Soo don't come talk in my head beaucase DC don't care to power or what are or not possible
I went on comic vine and everything i looked at made me cringe all there is on there is “the presence one shots hes omnipotent, lucifer and michael one shot they’re omnipotent.” They just ignore all the things you brought up. Thank you for making me see that the presence doesnt one shot everything
@Scorpinok300 one above all is NOT the writer. He's a character in marvel. There was only one time that he was portrayed as jack Kirby. When f4 traveled to heaven but still heaven in marvel is really obscure since we know there is also a heaven that was banished from world tree by odin
3 years later. thank you for making this video, I always thought the presence was DCs true god but seeing this I am grateful you have so much knowledge on this topic.
@@micahbernard2532 that's the wonder of it You didn't. And so I did what I do. Isn't it a wonder how wrong you can do, and the best thing you can do to fend off your irk is to put yourself in a position where you have power But you don't , you have never have any powers I crept into your mind that easily, I invaded it, I've offended the peace of your mind and assaulted it, by just a question How weak are you, it's funny, I have plenty of time to lose so I'll lose it on some other stuffs Good bye, And you're still wrong, fool.
With how many writers work on something like the DC universe, it’s pretty much impossible to have a single all powerful god. Someone like the presence could be created by a writer to be the true god, but then someone else can come along and add more lore that makes him lesser to others. Just about anyone you point to as being the supreme omnipotent being has had someone contest or contradict them at some point.
Hey Parrot! I love your videos, and my favorite has to be the Doom Patrol one. In fact, I now own the series and the books because of that video. One question though, what was the song used in the beginning and end of that video? It's pretty calm and would love to individually listen to it sometime
@@WebCamParrot thanks! I hope you can make another Doom Patrol video, or maybe a video on the most powerful comuc feats in both DC and Marvel? I hope you keep up the good work Parrot!
@@godslayer8894 tbh, I'm pretty sure we've never seen anyone above....The One Above All, rather than DC, who goes "Hey, remember the Presence?" "Yeah?" *"Yeah he isn't the supreme being"* DC likes to go beyond its little universe, rather than Marvel. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, but maybe WCP could debunk it, seeing as he's debunked so many popular myths
Personally I quickly felt something wasn’t right about the Prescience being the most powerful thing ever in DC even before I stumbled into this video. Like there is that Overvoid, then the Prime-Monitor, as well as The Writer(?), then there is Mxy in World’s Funnest where the writers made him boundless or something like that. Then there was the Prescience stating that he did not create himself. And now that you mentioned more DC characters that surpass the Prescience, such as Mordu, I feel that the Prescience would not even make it in a top ten list.
Dude great informative video as well and really love your content.U explain them so properly with their exact comic panels to back your words.Great Work as well as.Would be very hyped if their was a video on the dreaming as well as exploring the strongest beings in marvel too.Keep up the great work and have a great day.Thanks as all was for making my day great with your videos.
I'm not an expert at this sort of thing at all, but there was some things that struck me while you were talking. The idea of "the white page" you've probably already associated with being literally the blank page of the comic artist or writer, juxtaposed with Pralaya (who looks like ink, which already sortof kills my theory) being the place where a story idea comes from or banishment from a storyline or a forgotten idea. Then Retcon Corp. who's name couldn't be more obvious, and who's characters are literal blank page. In a sense, every character breaks the White Page by their existence. Then there's what the Presence said, that "no one can make themselves". The presence is made by the writer and artist, and those artists are made by their parents or their god. But let's say the Presence meant something different. Maybe there is no "highest being", but an infinite line of beings above him, or taken in the context of a comic, a possible infinite hierarchy of ideas. Come to think of it, even Pralaya is the personification of "idea", another layer of abstraction, and not "idea" itself. Anyhoo...
The presence is probably just the janitor. It's his job to keep everything neat and tidy. If he fails his boss will call in a professional cleaning crew and possibly oversee the job himself.
I hate that claim and everything that those people use as "proof" is as bad as the "proof" that Sitama fans use to prove that he's Omnipotent and Limitless and can One punch everything in Fiction and reality. Same goes for Alien X but both are just as retarded.
@@gabrielhughes8221 I've debated against someone who legitimately thought that because Sitama is apparently limitless and can One punch Lucifer (Samael) Morningstar and that Samael is only Star Level and Sitama is Universe level.
9:26 you could argue when lucifer said the dark presence wasnt his father he was being metaphorical, but when confronted by Gabriel Lucifer went on to say he didnt kill the presence, if the presence were dead he would know, especially if he were the one to do it. the dark presence lucifer chopped up wasnt the real deal, he also called the presence omnipotent and said anything Gabriel THINKS happened was just a part of his plan. they literally could not be any more in your face about that not being the presence. The presence has been confirmed by some authors to be the overvoid (if you want to ignore word of god statements that's completely fair). On the page when the specter becomes the oversoul he still calls god supreme (obviously referring to the presence as that's the only person the specter calls god.) 14:04 the collective unconscious is not above the presence, even if you want to say its what hes referring to in that panel (which i highly doubt, im pretty sure its literally just a meta joke about the artists of DC), he only says it "shaped" him, not created him. its been shown when perpetua is given energies from the source to create the multiverse the collective unconscious is just one of the powers gifted, and given that the source is a part of the presence or vice versa (i dont really care either way) it would make the collective a power granted by the presence. What he likely means when he says it shaped him (assuming he's referring to the collective) is people wanted to believe in a god so the light (the presence) was shaped into a god by the collective, this would also tie into the eclipso "god is dead" panel. we're also shown the different forms of lucifer and one of them if the hand of the great darkness, when asked about it the author confirmed the great darkness is an aspect of lucifer. you can argue against twitter confirmations all day but that's literally on the page.
Much of this comment is really nitpicking stuff. First of Lucifers conversation with Gabriel is prior to him investigating anything and knowing what actually goes on and just makes assumptions based on Gabriel telling him that God is dead and Lucifer was correct about The Presence planning for Gabriel to stab him and his "death" but non of that implies that it is not the real Presence everyone calls him God/Yahweh/The Presence anything else is headcanon. Trying to use his omnipotence statements as counter evidence doesn´t work either since the comic clarifies that these omni terms aren´t literal once by Elaine admitting so herself and by the statement that the void is beyond the omniscience of The Presence and if one wher eto use this exact argument for a character like Darksied everyone would laugh (rightfully so) WOG is really useless when the Comics contradict it Overovid>Presence Likewise trying to say that shaped is not synonymus with created in that Lucifer 2000 panel is just straight up coping. The Presence claims that nobody is his own maker/creator and Lucifer replies that The Presence is his own maker and The Presence replies that this ain´t true and that he was shaped by external forces. So unless you think The Presence is retarded asf and strawmanned Lucifers whole point he is saying he was created. There also plenty of other instances where this idea is reinforced. Perpetua is above the cu of the multiverse but as was shown multiple times there are lesser versions and aspects of the cu like the dreaming and the cu in it´s truest state goes beyond Perpetua. Maybe go less of what a random twitter statement says and go off what is actually on the page like you preach, the scan says that these are "possible versions" of Lucifer not aspects these are things he could have been or will be at some point. The great evil beast is specifically not Lucifer. Cain says it is no fallen angel, Zatara says it is far greater thna Satan and Lucifer himself talks about it as a distinct entity, and the geb itself says to Spectre that the voice of gods doens´t talk through him which makes no sense ogf it was an aspect of Lucifer who is a creation of The Presence.
@@Dreamcaster06 "Lucifer says word for word "That's ridiculous. if he were dead, i'd know. And i'd definitely know if i were the one who did it. Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. Whatever HAPPENED, whatever you THINK happened, it was a part of his design, that old bastard never does anything without a plan." There's nothing contradicting the Overvoid being a part of the Presence. Lucifer is the great darkness Michael is the Source Presence is the Over-void and all 5 are his creations. Im not arguing shaped isnt synonymous with created, im saying it doesnt have to be, and i believe that statement was actually referring to the DC artists, not the collective. I simply presented an explanation for IF you want to believe its the collective he's talking about. It's literally stated on the page (Lucifer 2018 issues #10) "can you not feel your AVATARS at your shoulder? All those Lucifers you HAVE BEEN and COULD BE" considering the great darkness already exists, its fair to say it doesnt fit into the "could be" category and rather fits into the "Have been" category. Unless you think she's saying the great darkness could retroactively become an avatar of lucifer, which 1, makes absolutely 0 sense, and 2 would still mean Lucifer is capable of overpowering the great darkness. but like it said, it obviously fits into the "Has been an avatar" category. the way i see it, the source is Michael because spectre kind of straight up said so, and mandrakk said the power of the source is the power of the presence (Michael is the power of the presence) and the darkness is Lucifer because its straight up stated on page and by an author "this is an avatar of Lucifer" Making Michael and Lucifer the hands of darkness and light that fought before creation began
@@TFF_Onida Almost nothing here adreses anything I said it´s not enganging with any of the counter examples etc. That was at the beginning of the run and like I said what Lucifer says here is correct since The Presence wanted Gabriel to stab him, doens´t adress my point lol Overovid didn´t know what creation is The Presence does and Michael being the source was never stated. I already gave an argument why shaped has to mean created and this aslo doesn´t adress any of the other examples that show cu>Presence Lucifer becoming something that looks like the great darkness doens´t mean he overpowered it what also in that sma estory it is stated that Lucifer came to be in the darkness so it preceded him and I offered many more reasons why it can´t be the same entity as Lucifer which you like so much I said just ignored. Spectre said the uni friedn is perhaps an aspect of Michael that isn´t the source. Cronos says that a portion of the godwave is the power of The Presence which is just referring to the god waves power that birthed all the gods it has nothing to do with Michael.
@@Dreamcaster06 Webcamparrot said the presence isnt the strongest and used Lucifer beating him as a point. i said Lucifer, by his own admission cant beat the presence, he said the presence is more powerful than him (calls him omnipotent) and says the dark god thing isnt the presence to begin with, it just has "some of him in there" Over-void knew what creation was, it didnt know what the FLAW was. The FLAW was perpetua's multiverse which was corrupted, as pointed out by the hands. If you want to believe "shaped" is referring to "created' then feel free to do so, but i'd argue if he's saying he was created he'd be referring to the artists of DC not the CU. As for addressing the CU > Presence thing, i said the CU is just another power gifted to perpetua by the source in order to create the multiverse hence why the CU is beyond perpetua, its not her power it's of the source which is beyond beyond perpetua. Presence >> Source >> CU He didnt "become something that looks like the great darkness" the great darkness was his avatar. as stated ON THE PAGE and by the WRITER. It straight up says so, if you dont think it makes sense that's your own business but that's what it says on the page. let me repeat: "can you not feel your AVATARS at your shoulder? All those Lucifers you HAVE BEEN and COULD BE" considering the great darkness already exists, its fair to say it doesnt fit into the "could be" category and rather fits into the "Have been" category. Specter says the Flaming hand is Michael or one of the other arch angels, when green lantern John stewert talked to the source itself, the source says, he IS the flaming, and mandrakk says the power of the source is the power of the presence, and michael is the power of the presence so the source is the flaming hand which is either Michael or the presence.
@@TFF_Onida Parrot used the Lucifer as a point to say The Presence isn´t supreme at no point was he saying Luicfer>Presence. And that you are not my father statement is clearly metaphorical literally everyone at every other point calls him The Presence. Great more head canonm Mandrak says in unexpexted trhat he entered the flaw before it became the tripitch multiverse. So this flaw stuff was before Perpetua was a thing. Overvoid had no idea what the muiltiverse was the source activly sends hands to create stuff. The Presence is not beyond the source and as I said what Perpetua was given is just a lesser form of the cu still not adressing the many showings of the cu being beyond The Presence. The comic never says the word great darkness and idk why you are ignoring all the reasons I gavew why he can´t be the great darkness like how desperat can one be to force his own headcanon into the comic. The source says it is a manifestation of him lol not that it is the hand. Also you just repeating the Cronos argument and even still saying Mandrak after I corredted you just shows how ignorant you are. I feel like arguing with you is pointless all you do is repeat yourself add more head canon and ignore most of my points don´t you feel stupid forcing your inconsistent fanfictions into the comic?
I thought the Presence and the Source were like Yaldabaoth and the Monad. Or maybe its Presence=Demiurge, Source=Sophia, Overvoid=Monad But then DC Comics went EVEN FURTHER BEYOND!!
As someone looking in, I can't help but remember arguments with my brother that DC has serious power scaling issues and we were just talking a out Superman. Hearing anout all this other stuff, I'm starting to feel like he was right.
Great points and generally love your channel but this times you came off as a bit biased my friend, maybe just in my perception though. As much as in the comments there are the edgy ones making fun about presence fanboys, so csn one notice how they are very similar in their hate for the character, coming off as a bit of comic book snobs at times. I think the presence isn't the most powerful entity in dc (until some writer makes it that way again at least) but some of the 'debunks' here were really interpretated after your own liking, like the default scaling of hekate just bc of that statement about the other gods who walked on earth, I doubt the presence was taken into consideration in that comic, other than that quite the informative video. Nice work
The Hecate being stronger than The Presence stuff is some of the most blatant scaling I presented here dude. There are like 6 different pieces of strong evidence all pointing towards it. I went over most of it towards the end of my Mordru video. Like you understand that The Presence was born from the collective unconscious/the dreaming right? I proved that several times over in this video a lone. Because the collective unconscious is just ONE PART of Hecate's being. The Presence was literally born from a small part of Hecate. But yeah dude I'm totally being biased right, despite her being repeatedly stated to be above him and despite The Presence needing to create Eclipso to siphon and limit her powers slightly because otherwise she would be unstoppable. Not to mention that the coming of the Upside Downman (who is equal to Hecate) was literally said to be worse than the coming of the Great Darkness the first time and that was something that The Presence was heavily rivalled by and may even have died against if not for Swamp Thing. You can't use this whole author intent thing, you don't know the authors intent, you cannot possibly ever know the authors intent. Once the comic exists it exists separately from the author and anything that happens in it is open to deconstruction. Also for the record The Presence was literally directly mentioned in this comic, he was trying to make an alliance with Hell against the Otherkind, implying he can't defeat them on his own lol. So there goes your random head canon theory that the statements don't include The Presence.
@@WebCamParrot I think Doctor Fate is also beyond the presence too because he is above the likes of Arion who is one of the Lords of order and he was able do defeat the The Darkworld which is the Great Darkness. And another is that he was able to do combat with Mordru on various times who is also beyond The Presence too. And lastly he was able to destroy the Sphere of gods which is something that is beyond the presence too. All these feats make even Classic Strange seem weak.
Nabu has some some outer scans but Arion is mostly weak when he appears as his magic source keep changing. Arion went from using the darkworld to the sun to equipment like helmet of fate that give power. Arion might be the strongest when utilising darkworld and that's why Merlin who is a rival of mordru is currently using Arion to steal the power of the great darkness.@@itzthedapperlionyt4332
According to the Dematteis though we're all right, kinda rendering this video moot but informative! I learned a lot about DC lore! Loving your videos! I'm subbing!
@@gabrielhughes8221 I think they're above greater beings, Oblivion claimed to be there before creation itself, and that he'll be there after creation, when he claims everything
@@tanyasaffell4943 Right yeah I'd remember. For right on both side of DC and Marvel comics never make it clear enough who is the Superior God. But by this their cant say because of the Comic Code they go by because of Religious beliefs. That's why On DC comics publishers God go by many names , titles and different aspects of God or gods. the first appearance of "The Voice" was in the 1940 origin of the Spectre - but they have traditionally used surrogate concepts and names rather than refer to the Abrahamic deity directly. The comics are published under the Comics Code, a set of ethical guidelines drawn up in the 1950s in reaction to anti-comic book hysteria. The Code does not explicitly refer to God, but does say that "ridicule or attack on any religious or racial group is never permissible."[2]Later revisions of the Code are phrased in terms of respecting religious beliefs and religious institutions, which may account for the comics' hesitancy when dealing with God. The lack of a central doctrine means that multiple "aspects" of God have been introduced by different writers. So it stated that in DC comics publishers but it also go out to Marvel as well.
sounds like you just don't like The presence or what he represents. Also you have to decide which presence the first one left and Elaine Belloc became the next one. First one is supreme and infinite and eternal.
Coriel Gaming Its not that he doesn’t like the Presence, he doesn’t like the misconception wank The Presence gets. The first one, which he mentions in the video, while he is infinite and eternal, was made by the dreaming and formed by the Collective Unconscious as said in the video.
@@van8510Well isn’t that the case with everything else? The dreaming always existed ever since the first being or entity. The presence is just one of trillions dreamed up.
Hello WebcamParrot can you do Strange Visitor Superman, Red death Flash, God Flash, God Green Lantern, Volthoom, Perpetua, Batman who laughs, Mother Night/Father Time, Endless members, Imperiex, Krona, High Father, Phantom Stranger, John Constitine, Raven, Rama Kushna, The Word, CAS, Swamp Thing, Takion, Starbreaker, The Merciless, Barbatos, Ellain Balocc, Micheal, Ares, Bat-Mite, Black Racer, Captain Adom Moniter, Decreator, Doctor Fate, Zitanna, Kismet, Empty Hand, The Infinite Man, etc................
Nah, Death doesn’t necessarily have power over anyone she claims, she’s just there for them when they die. Dream even says in Sandman that Lucifer and the Presence are the most powerful beings he’s aware of, and since Death is his sister, she would obviously be included in that as well.
@@TheIdiotNamedJoe then explain when the presence was killed by gabriel, and when he said himself that he is neither the supreme being and there are some above him and luci knows that, and when the writer said that the presence was shape by an external force which is all the beings that exist by worshipping and imagining he is real like DREAM and even the writer said that The Presence was Created by Dream of all humanity means Morpheus created The Presence since he is the Dream Itself
@@TheIdiotNamedJoe read all the articles the DC Writers said about The Presence being shape by External Force(which was said is all the Dreamers all humanity who Worship something it doesn't exist and this belief created The Presence himself which said by the writer himself that The Presence was shaped through the Dream of External Forces means that even the Presence is bound to the siblings known as Death Destiny Dream Desire Delerium Despair Destruction Because The Presence was shown to be created by Dream of believers And died in the hand of Gabriel and even he stated himself that Luci has the power to kill him means he is bound to Dream and Death. And Destiny is to be said know all that things that happen and never happen like The Watchers so means that he has the power to sees The Presence Destiny because even The Presence himself stated "true i am eternal but even i was SHAPE BY EXTERNAL BEINGS, you know who they are"
@WebCamParrot, loved the video but I was wondering where it is stated that Hecate created the dreaming or if I just misunderstood. Just got a bit lost and wanted to know where that was confirmed
I disagree in some statements made in this video like scaling perpetua above the presence when she basically answers to the source(the presence). The presece is infinite and eternal(basically the source) and he is shaped by what our imaginations see him to be. How can you say he was made by us when you can basically ask yourself who made creation in the first place.So what you said literally makes no sense. Im not saying hes omnipotent but you just made some wrong statements. I think the only people above him should be the Overvoid and the Empty hand
I think the problem with the presence is that he has so many things that are related to the abrahamic God. I've changed my mind a little bit about it, but it's hard to change the way you've thought about something for so long after only one video. But wow this video really re-enforced the fact that so many companies and universes have done the same thing with having a being representing the darkness that existed before and that will exist at the end of the universe. I mean marvel has mikaboshi, knull, and the black winter, Supernatural has Amara, etc.
![Stromae, Pomme - “Ma Meilleure Ennemie” (from Arcane Season 2) [Official Visualizer]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1F3OGIFnW1k/mqdefault.jpg)
I realise I came across a little more intense or bothered in this video than I really am. Obviously I'm just talking about a comic book character and it's all for fun in the end.
People have been asking me to emote or engage more during my videos and this was my attempt to do that. Sorry if it comes across as weird as a result.
If you are thinking about purchasing comics in the future consider using my affiliate marketing link here to help support the channel: amzn.to/2Vxyn5N
WebCamParrot YESSS. I waited for this video for so long. Ever since your Mordru video
Please do a wonder woman video
I'd want to ask, why did you assume that the Presence counted as one of the gods that has walked the Earth?
I'd actually ask one thing: Has the Presence ever actually... Walked on the Earth?
I'm genuinely not sure.
He's walked the Earth several times particularly in the New 52 Phantom Stranger. I actually referenced that comic in this video.
It's not an assumption to say that a being constantly referred to as a god is a god lol.
@@WebCamParrot
Webcam if your interested in doing
Martian manhunter or wonder woman
Tell me
Is this like a personal attack or something
Aizen: "Hi grandfather! Is this all still part of the plan?"
No its attacking the people how over Hipes you as if you were god
🤣
@@paradoxglitch1108 The Presence is the DC equivalent to the Abrahamic God so...
@@Cabolt44 did you watch the video
This debunk video was clearly part of the Presence’s “plan”
The fact that he created the DC
Presence is fodder
@@LIamaLIamaLick nope.
It wasn't a debunk video just the sad ramblings of a guy who thinks everyone else is wrong an making head cannons except him and that his word is law.
@@Auron1Roxas2 r/whoosh
The Presence: Is this like a personal attack or something?
Lmao I love brie larson jokes
Indeed I feel like I've been personally attacked
@@thepresence430 it's okay dad just let me talk to the writers and well work something out.
I love the beings that exist in the Omniverses, they're so small and silly, being an Ultra God is so much better.
@@CerealExperimentsMizuki Ultra God vs Omega God
The problem with creating all these abstract god like beings is that every author wants to put their own spin on them. And what ever comic their featured in will have prominence over the others. For example I'm sure that if Lucifer ever came into a book staring the new gods he would suddenly be no match for the power of the Source.
Also the notion of an All-powerful force for good might lead to some deus ex machina endings that no one likes.
One writer "I want to put a representation of a one all powerful God in my comic" then another writer comes around "I want to make the most powerful villain ever so he needs to kill the representation of God someone before me made" and it could really become a perpetuating cycle which is just a consequence of need for new and greater threats in a single continuity
@@danielscalera6057 Honestly I think that if someone wants to portray a creator being in media they should automatically say that said being is just an avatar of the writters ect. Make it so its explains the creation of the universe and have it be impossible to go beyond it. Because then whats the point of calling it God if its not the true one above all? ""Unless specifically specified"" The point of a creator being is to be the beginning and the end. Existence itself you should not just be able to punch it, hell you should not be able to ""kill it"" without erasing everything itself. I think some writters go too much with the bible version of the creator and dont look at the other versions in mythologies. Its not always a being its sometimes a incomprehensible force.
@Ben Baxter I feel like a writers gonna have my ass handed to me with the way things are going right now.
@Ben Baxter I feel like a writers gonna have my ass handed to me with the way things are going right now.
@@lucifermorningstar.3622 One Above All got nerfed pretty hard, nobody is safe
webcamparrot scales above the presence
Truth
Indeed.
Facts
WebCamParrot can stomp anyone in fiction, look it up....
No shaggy is and spongebob scale above him.
I think a lot of people miss the point of the Lucifer and presence story. The presence tells lucifer he had a similar relationship with his creator. Part of it was making your own choices and to ascend past your beginnings.
That never happened.
Batman's prep time is outside the plan
On god(.)
@@etan_b God isn’t working on That prep time…..
Kind of surprising people keep thinking he is omnipotent even though he himself says he was shaped by external forces.
The writer of thecomic explained it actually.
By "external forces" he didn't mean that he was literally made by other beings, he already existed, he just adopted the persona these other forces thought of him. The Presence is omnipotent. He just splits his power to different beings.
I debunked both of the things you just said in the video lol.
@@ΔημήτρηςΚολυτάς
YOU NEED TO SEE THIS VIDEO:
ruclips.net/video/vpwvpiJVKus/видео.html
@@ΔημήτρηςΚολυτάς Correct I'd dont know why people dont get that or understand that. It been stated and claimed many time that The Presence has many aspects. One of The aspects is The Writer that only one he got many. The Presence itself is also an aspect to the Superior God. Now this video got alot of good information . But Pralaya is the Embodiment of pure Darkness.
@@gabrielhughes8221 When was it stated that Yahweh's aspect is the writer? I've been seeing a lot of claims that The Presence is meta with no evidence to support that.
Glad to see someon go into DC lore so much. TBH this is why I like dc, so many powerful beings and such nice and expansive pantheons. Honestly I find the verse super interesting. Ty for bringing it to me in such a well done way!!! Keep up the awesome work man!
Honestly these characters in comics are only as strong or weak as the writer of stories make them at the time lol
Remember editors exist to keep things consistant
@@puckry9686 comic books editors also suck at maintaining consistency then
When it comes to the writers and editors it can sometimes be one crazy train ride lol
No offense but this phrase is such a cop out.
True. When Superman first came into being. The writers kept making up all sorts of new super powers for him on the fly, or so I've heard. Meaning that, essentially, Superman could miraculously possess one kind of superpower which he uses in one comic book story and yet never uses it again, nor has he ever used said power again. Cough, super ventriloquism, cough.
Some of the best researched and most unbiased videos on these hot topics.
This is biased and false as hell
@@DagothUrAmaranth you able to debunk it?
@@kylemcilquham1541 yes.
@@DagothUrAmaranth mind posting a video debunking it?
@@kylemcilquham1541 no need to make a video do you agree that dc writers were religious people
There is also one character from Sandman series that predated DC multiverse. His name is Silk or something like that.
The Silkman yeah. The Jin En Mok predate The Presence as well.
Silk Man also said iirc that there will be other creations and other makers which should further indicate that The Presence isn't supreme or omnipotent (Imo there isn't omnipotence in fiction, but whatever).
The same character lucifer destroyed in Nirvana
@@WebCamParrot Plus Lucifer created his own multiverse. Does that mean he is basically new Presence in his multiverse?
@@kubahavlicek1933 He needed Michael's death in order to create his own Multiverse iirc. But yeah, he's basically The Presence there.
I read comics every now and then, I like DC comics stuff as much as the next guy, but never bothered looking into all this, just reading those as stories.
But I really like your approach, your research is much appreciated, sat through the whole video without pausing or skipping, really well done.
I really wish DC would create an actual hierarchy of their Cosmic beings. They just keep adding new ones without clearly defining their role, let alone how they fit into the existing hierarchy.
*Says nice calm music*
*Plays resonance*
Me: I see you are a man of culture as well.
How powerful is the God of superheroes ahl
I have never before come across a channel that has videos of this quality and so few subscribers. I still haven't watched one of your videos and left dissapointed. Ridiculously good videos.
I know this guy deserves so much more subscribers
Behind every godlike man is an abysmal horror of a woman.
🤣🍻
Don't you trash my girl Pralaya; she's utterly, terrifyingly beautiful. 😍
Is this misogyny
Since you mentioned in the video you wanted to know if you changed anyone's mind with this, I want to say you actually did with me. I had really enjoyed your Mordru video but had been a little skepetical about the veracity of some of the scaling with The Presence because I had always thought it was supposed to be this invincible, all knowing, all powerful being in DC cosmology.
I think the whole "look at the argument holistically" was a really good point to put in there. I had actually felt like nitpicking the blight example because till now I had interpretted as a empty boast considering the angel he had said it too was claiming the opposite if I recall, but considering the context, the weight of other super clear examples of The Prescence being fallible from other comics, and the implications of his origin what the Blight said made perfect sense.
FINALLY someone made a video debunking this dude's "omnipotence"
The presence vs Lovecraft
Cthulhu The dread Presence isn’t Omnipotent for sure. Nobody in fiction is.
@@Master_baiter7 you know what I mean.
Cthulhu The dread Yeah, I do.
He's not omnipotent, but he is a part of an omnipotent. He's more like nigh-omnipotent.
Presense: I'm the most powerful character in DC
Overvoid: nice joke
Pralya: peasants
The Writer: silence you fools
@the. Void
Actual God: "Sigh..."
@@mr.knightthedetective7435 scp 3812: hey guys!
Writers/Final Heaven>Overvoid>Prallaya
She's still on the overvoid just like everything else
Superman is the real supreme being of DC (excluding The Eonimous)
-no seriously he made a video on it-
Arbiter and Chara Dreemurr who is final heaven
Freddy Myres Final Heaven is where Milkman Man exists
Top 5 most powerful DC characters?
number 5 the presence
@Gasper Vidovic Damn bro he got you on the one
@Ankit Bhattacharya The Writer? Hahahahah.
@@mnicols-4640 the writer is actually a character
@Ankit Bhattacharya hatt chutiya.
The Presence was destroyed in this video 🗿
Ya the prensence not creator of dc.
Yes
@Black Bolt Link to his video?
@Black Bolt Oh, i see, it's a comic
@@omniversalsuper7013 Who is?
Would it be possible for you to make a video ranking the strongest characters published in DC? I have seen your cosmology video but I would love a more in depth scope of the residents of these realms especially how the various residents of the godsphere scale to one another.
Trigon
@@yourlifetrulymatters ?
@@achimpanzee9210 Trigon
@@RyanGFC mind proving it?
@@achimpanzee9210 Prove what? I was just saying what the first guy said.
Please make a video on
The Great Evil Beast and Monitor Dax Novu
The same thing can be said with The One Above all but maybe to a lesser extent. I think writers do this by accident while trying to hype up an upcoming threat saying “not even god himself can destroy it” but then you automatically debunk the supreme being that they are not indeed omnipotent or all powerful. Whether they do this on purpose or not it doesn’t matter. It happened in a comic and cannot be ignored.
It's not an accident, The Presence was just NEVER intended to be supreme at all. He's been shown to be limited throughout his entire history.
WebCamParrot oh great you answered. Thanks! What do you think of Imaginary Axis’ video on the subject? Also who’s your favorite comic book character? I’m guessing Super man
My favourite comicbook character is Constantine and I don't remember the IA video in great detail but I basically thought it was utterly wrong on everything except the most basic facts. It is entertaining and well made though.
WebCamParrot Either way I really enjoy your content. Your Post Crisis Super man video and Doctor Doom Video are favorites. You really put respect on these characters’ names. I remember watching Comics vs the world’s video on Post crisis Superman and comparing it to your video he kinda downplayed him a lot.
Most people do downplay him. I even downplayed him pretty significantly in the video. I now know that everything I said in that original post crisis Superman video was performed by a Superman that was holding back massively. I went into far higher end stuff with my Spawn vs Superman video but even then I excluded a lot of stuff like hax that Superman has.
The Leviathan of Stories could be the supreme entity?
I think some god actually created Leviathan if I remember it correctly.
@@kubahavlicek1933 It was Utu iirc.
Enlil and utu>Leviathan
@@larrylarry4664 i think the page > enlil and utu
Divine Pixel Book No, It’s stated The Leviathan transcends Utu and Enlil later on in the story so
The most powerful being in the DC universe is the customer, you know... the people who actually pay for DC content. If there was no customer, there would be no DC universe. It's sort of a meta-narrative cop-out to say this, but it's true.
Facts lol
Can you do a video about
The Endless
DC relics
The Great Darkness
The Seven Forces
Glad you finally addressed this I love my DC vertigo but characters there aren't the most powerful
I thought they had a super powerful characters
Really love your videos because you really know about the topics your talking about
Really liking your DC vids my man! You should do a ranking of the most powerful beings in DC later down the line when you analyze all these beasts powers
The reason people claim that is because big comic book channels like Variant and Comic Drake had stated this in one of their videos. Since people feel like they can rely on them,this myth grows.
There are still people that say that was a “fake” presence. Even though in the same story ellaine Belloc who had the presences power and was serving as the narrator acknowledged that entity as the presence.. also that it was never revealed to be a fake presence. It was also shown going to Raphael begging him to help cleanse the contamination of azazels blade.. which is what we saw Gabriel stab him with 😂
It all was planed + avatar
@@shedevrostandofmatebal nice head canon
@@ultraviolett2489 it's not headcanon lmfaooo, keep dreaming
@@shedevrostandofmatebal☠️
Isnt Thought Robot technically stronger than the Presence?
It's definitely contentious but I would say so yes.
WebCamParrot is mandrakk stronger then Lucifer
WebCamParrot is Michael stronger then Lucifer
Miguel Gonzalez Mandrakk is stronger then Lucifer, and Michael probably is as well
@@MiguelGonzalez-qn3kx I can tell he dosent like the presence at all lmao
you have truly changed my perspective and educated the ignorant, thank you for fixing many years of damage done by people who blow his power out of proportion
lol
I still see it from content creators now
@@brandoncruse8532 at least an attempt was made
I know you said at the end you wouldn’t make another video on the presence, but after seeing this one I’d really love to see a video covering the feats and power of the presence. I think it’d be cool to see where he stands and some of the power he actually does possess. Good work on this video by the way
Another banger great work as always
I demand a Virgin vs Chad Meme template between the Presence and All, the God of Superheroes. LOL
*Ahl
he got killed though, not saying he's weaker.
14:05
This theory is further confirmed in the latest Lucifer comics, during a discussion between Odin and Lucifer.
In it, Odin points out that Lucifer's domain is a new, young one - and Lucifer replies by stating that it retroactively has always existed.
+/-
If we extrapolate outward from this, well - you get the idea.
I was not aware of this particular instance! cool. Add it to the massive pile of evidence we already have lol.
Out of curiosity, what place would place me and my father now. I'm fine with us not being on top anymore if we ever were at this point.
@@lucifermorningstar.3622 Darn good question. I mean, you still did intimidate Dream of the Endless. And the Presence is still a power to be reckoned with...
That said, I'd argue the power of both of them is... More fluid and metaphorically based than strict and stable and stagnant?
@@TheLostArchangel666 It would also depend on the writers with CAS, Mandrakk, and Perpetua I feel as though the time of my demise and capitulation is nigh. It seems as though now there are also more than characters capable of eradicating Heaven with a single motion. But you what, so be it. I accept my inevitable doom but I guess really is just up to the writers now.
@@lucifermorningstar.3622 Oh dear samael, you have a lot to learn about yourself. You were never samael to begin with. You thought you knew your true self? You have ventured between multiverses. You have vast knowledge about everything around you but you never ventured deeply within yourself. You never self inquired because of your deep sense of vanity. Your father merely gave you names, memories, thoughts, emotions and feelings. But he never told you that you are not them. Your identity is only accumulation of all past memories, thoughts and so on. Yet you are not them. You are not your identity. Why do you say " I have an identity" but never say " I am the identity"? Inquire yourself deeply and you'll realize what you actually are.
Edit : just a chill conversation with your favourite character that you embody 😏
The Presence being created proves alone that he's not omnipotent.
I used to stan The Presence. But with this, I'm bouta use my boi Lucifer.
On a scale of 1 to "I did not care for the Godfather" how hot is this take?
I stopped seeing the presence as all-powerful when the weakening monitor Rox Ogama implied that he wounded the presence in final crisis. Not surprisingly, there was more evidence from previous tie in issues that proved he was actually hurt, if not dead.
I remember a lot of people denying that scan and saying that it was Darkseid who died. That's strange for Darkseid to own the Pax Dei army, Spectre, and the Radiant.
@@imsobored124 Radiant explained in Final crisis Revelations that she and the spectre can only be killed if the presence (god) is dead...In the final issue of final crisis, we see the bodies of both the spectre and Radiant drained and possibly lifeless further confirming that it was the presence not Darkseid.
@@imsobored124 can you then explain why the Pax Dei army of angels were described as vengeful during the final battle? What were they avenging other than their fallen god? Yes, Mandrakk drained their powers... Which is essentially killing god's vengeance and mercy. The spectre is only the spectre because of his powers, without it, he's basically a dude wearing a cape.
@@imsobored124 "you assumed" no mate, that's not enough. Why didn't the angel's also help during other crisis? Mandrakk said he left the "dying god" not dead god. The presence could have survived the attack who knows? All we know is that he was left in such a state that aspects of him could be essentially killed. Also, Rox Ogama was banished and was weakening as a result. The lanterns were able to kill him because he was a lot more weaker than when he previously infected ultraman and the miracle machine also helped.
@@imsobored124 Grant Morrison always refers to the presence as "god" in all his stories except the context is different which in this case wasn't, as in the next panel mandrakk brags about draining the spectre and radiant (servants of God as he described) who by the way aren't agents of Darkseid but the presence. Radiant and spectre getting drained is more than enough proof if you consider the the statement the radiant made in final crisis revelations...it wasn't a random statement, it was supposed to lead up to that moment. About the army of angels, Think about it- why would the angel's be vengeful if they weren't affected by Mandrakk? Your argument of them randomly appearing to fight mandrakk while vengeful doesn't add up...at all!
I feel like the problem with characters like The Presence is that they were intended to be omnipotent when they were created, but are altered by later authors to fit the story. The original Lucifer comics imply that there is nothing beyond The Presence, yes The Great Darkness was its equal, but they are like to sides of the same coin. Then later stories retcon that but saying that those characters to fit the narrative.
Could not disagree with you more. You either mean two things by omnipotence the first defintion meaning boundless unstoppable without limit ect and the second definition a being of great power or influence. The Presence is clearly the latter so you must be referring to the former. The version of The Presence you are likely referring to as "intended to be omnipotent" is from Lucifer 2000 I am going to assume consdering that's his first real time he is referred to as "The Presence". The first mistake you are making is that you think he was portrayed as omnipotent (first definition) in that comic which he never ever was and he even tells us himself, several times that he is not without limitations in this exact comic.
The second mistake is you thinking that this somehow supersedes any of his other appearances for no reason and that it's later authors faults for ruining his omnipotence or whatever in their stories with things like the Great Darkness.
Great Darkness first appearance: Swamp Thing Vol 2 issue 49 1986
The Presence's first actual appearance as The Presence: Lucifer volume 1 issue 1 2000
You should abandon these preconceived assumptions you have.
@@WebCamParrot I think you are misunderstanding me, I wasn't trying to say that the character of the Presence is omnipotent in a way shape or Form. I wanted to point out that comic book characters can change over time, this is due to the medium. Even if the original character is intended to be omnipotent (or nigh omnipotent in the case of the Presence) future writers will always interpret them differently and alter things to keep the plot interesting. Even editors won't be able to keep a one hundred percent consistent Canon.
I didn't mean to disagree with your well researched video essay, I just wanted to point out, that from a narrative perspective omnipotent comic book characters are inherently flawed as active characters.
I wasn't under the misconception that you thought that. You were saying that The Presence was initially intended to be omnipotent, which as I just pointed out, is simply not true.
@@WebCamParrot who do you think is the strongest in DC? Some people say the writers but penny wise and other characters from different universes scale above their own authors which wouldn’t make too much sense.
@@achimpanzee9210 stop watching yfv garbage vids. Pennywise is fodder
Can you please make a video on the creation of the dc multiverse involving the presence, Lucifer and Michael,Perpetua,the empty hand and the god wave
Can you do a video on The Decreator, The Endless, and Lucifer? I've been reading and hearing so many people on Reddit give out misinformation about these three characters *constantly*
People literally think The Endless can be destroyed... their avatars can but they can never truly be rid of since they are fundamental to all realities, regardless of immortality, etc.
The endless can end, Death herself stated it, they don't exist in the overvoid, If existence ends, so do they
They will only stop existing once ever sentient being stops existing.
Doesn't that go for darksieds true self as well?
@@cngotham4111 No Darksiders true self has died. When I say everything I mean literally everything has to stop living for them to "Die". They just move on really
@@TheBlackDeception exactly.
Even mandrakks say he is going to seal the great darkness. Proving he may be stronger then presence so is CAS. Milkman man is even stronger than that.
Mandrakk had the power of an editor
Bruh 🤦🏻♂️the darkness in the MU is different wtf. So with your logic you're basically saying that the Thors of DC and Marvel are both the same?no
@@imbangmaynn5705 are you unwell mister
@@lockjaw9793 fr?
@@cracktoon_powerscaling no he has a brain
My favorite story point with the Presence is that when he created the First of the fallen as his companion and conscience, the First deemed him insane and disobeyed his commands. i just love such an interesting ideé that the Presence was deemed insane by his first creation who's job was to be his conscience. Makes me wonder if the First is still a part of the Presence?
A bit late but.. yes, TFOTF is still a part of The Presence, or at least his 'plan'. Lucifer is the only being in all of DC ever, to create a Multiverse outside of his fathers grip
Would really enjoy if you made a video about The Leviathan of Stories. It's really interesting and not a lot of people have much understanding of it. Also, I just really enjoy your videos, so yeah... dedicated Leviathan of Stories video? Please?
Another great video
I think this is your best video so far, I love how passionate you were in it
I love DC but wish they'd put out some lorebooks Star Wars style; filled with trivia and thoroughly explained things. I wanna know what happened to the Black Racer before and after Willy Walker (Hehehe, Walker). Also... Blight? You met my boy Antagon? What was I talking about... Oh yeah great vid man!
There is one it’s called all you need to know about DC
I honestly used to fear Darkside because of how he acts and what he is capable of now I honestly fear the people beyond the presence
Lol I'm so confused who's actually the most powerful character in DC. There's characters who go beyond the presents apparently but Lucifer was below the presents yet Lucifer is considered like the second most powerful character in DC. So what is Lucifer like the 6th most powerfuless character?
@@cngotham4111 Exactly, thank you 😂. I go on one page and they say, "There is nothing Beyond the presence and he is the most powerful" and I go to another saying" Presence is trash" 😂😂😂
@@brandoncruse8532 I'm pretty sure the presents is surpose to be the 1st but these damn comic writers ruin the oginial vision but idk
I was going back and forward between your dc videos and I was wondering how close Dr manhattan scaled to the presence
am I right to think since a full power animal man has better feats and animal man is comparable to lucifer, that presence should be stronger than dr manhattan?
He Is definitely below the presence
The Presence is High Outerversal level...But Overvoid is omniversal
And The Writer (supreme being) is beyond Omniversal....
I don’t know what you mean by Omniversal but I’m sure the Presence is Omniversal as well, He can definitely destroy the Omniverse in DC anyway.
@@van8510 outerversal
@@nelosparda4798 DC also use a Omniverse. Hell go read up on Scott Snyder cosmology about Perpetua. In fact both Marvel and DC fans and fanboys alike knows there a Omniverse.
@@nelosparda4798 For your kind information read comics, Perpetua stated ''In the greater Omniverse among all her brothers and sisters tending the infinite Multiverses within, no being was more feared more reviled''
DC has an actual Omniverse that is infinite in size and is filled with an unknown number of Multiverses.If the DC main Multiverse has only 52 main Universes, there is also a Dark Multiverse where infinite number of Universes are created and destroyed.
Each Dark Universe is born from a possibility. The possibility of something being in a certain way. But it falls upon the World Forger to choose which Dark Universe is placed on standby just in case a main Universe is destroyed and needs to be replaced.
While destroying any Dark Universe that will lead to only chaos and destruction.And if that was not enough, outside the Multiverse there is something called Hypertime.
Hypertime is where endless number of Universes exist. Basically any possible Universe has already happened, is happening, and will happen, within Hypertime.
@@nelosparda4798 lmao you sounds to me like a Marvel fan inside a greater overdosed fanboy xD I'm done with you dude....
You need to read comics even there are many comics where Omniverse is referred. I love both DC/Marvel and even anime too but the fact is you need to just read DC comics...
so can you do a PROPER Ranking Video of WHO is the most powerful being in all of DC???
Mr. Nobody
@@Shrigmaxxing utu created the Leviathan so no it isnt and there is enilil
@@godslayer8894 Oh well, thanks for informing me
@@Shrigmaxxing anytime
@@godslayer8894 no the Leviathan became stronger than enlil later on in the story.
The DC comics are weird because I have scans and quotes saying the presence is omnipotent and saying the void and the overvoid consist inside the presence it’s confusing
And I don’t know if the evil thing is the presence because the real presence said he could easily kill lucifer and Michael and the evil presence seemed very weak and needed others
First They nerfed the One Above All and now they nerfed The Presence, this is basically a reminder that NO CHARACTER is greater and more powerful than the writer himself, be it Stan Lee or Jack Kirby or any other writer.
.
Facts, nerfing Trigon to Bizarro's level was just stupid.
@@Lugent25 The they ignore the fact doomsday can't be Killed by superman and they done superman kill him a lot of times only beaucase of his Protagonism,Soo don't come talk in my head beaucase DC don't care to power or what are or not possible
@@GilbertojrZ7 You just proved my point.
@@Lugent25 Thats what i wan't to do
It's about damn time now DC Fans can know the truth.
@Ben Baxter TOAA I think is actually omnipotent though.
@@lucifermorningstar.3622 no one is fiction is omnipotent. And he’s not the most powerful in his universe
I went on comic vine and everything i looked at made me cringe all there is on there is “the presence one shots hes omnipotent, lucifer and michael one shot they’re omnipotent.” They just ignore all the things you brought up. Thank you for making me see that the presence doesnt one shot everything
He's still better then the one above all.
Are you sentient
Agreed
@Scorpinok300 one above all is NOT the writer. He's a character in marvel. There was only one time that he was portrayed as jack Kirby. When f4 traveled to heaven but still heaven in marvel is really obscure since we know there is also a heaven that was banished from world tree by odin
Perpetua is equal to TOAA!!!!
@Scorpinok300 toaa suffers the same situation like the presence
Stopped playing doom eternal to watch this, worth it.
Exist Logic you didn’t even watch all of it 💀
@@gbemade 2x speed my dude
3 years later. thank you for making this video, I always thought the presence was DCs true god but seeing this I am grateful you have so much knowledge on this topic.
video is wrong tho
5 month later and you're just wrong lol, even on a metaphysical level
@@Peppers_mintus did I ask?
@@micahbernard2532 that's the wonder of it
You didn't. And so I did what I do. Isn't it a wonder how wrong you can do, and the best thing you can do to fend off your irk is to put yourself in a position where you have power
But you don't , you have never have any powers
I crept into your mind that easily, I invaded it, I've offended the peace of your mind and assaulted it, by just a question
How weak are you, it's funny, I have plenty of time to lose so I'll lose it on some other stuffs
Good bye,
And you're still wrong, fool.
@@Peppers_mintus what the fuck are you talking about I gave you one second of thought when I wrote that comment LMFAO.
It came from Variant Comics he had the most powerful DC character video a put The Presence on top but can we blame him for that
With how many writers work on something like the DC universe, it’s pretty much impossible to have a single all powerful god. Someone like the presence could be created by a writer to be the true god, but then someone else can come along and add more lore that makes him lesser to others. Just about anyone you point to as being the supreme omnipotent being has had someone contest or contradict them at some point.
Hey Parrot! I love your videos, and my favorite has to be the Doom Patrol one. In fact, I now own the series and the books because of that video. One question though, what was the song used in the beginning and end of that video? It's pretty calm and would love to individually listen to it sometime
It's the Doom Patrol TV show intro and outro.
@@WebCamParrot thanks! I hope you can make another Doom Patrol video, or maybe a video on the most powerful comuc feats in both DC and Marvel? I hope you keep up the good work Parrot!
@@WebCamParrot you should make a video debunking the one above all and telling us who the supreme being is in marvel
@@godslayer8894 tbh, I'm pretty sure we've never seen anyone above....The One Above All, rather than DC, who goes
"Hey, remember the Presence?"
"Yeah?"
*"Yeah he isn't the supreme being"*
DC likes to go beyond its little universe, rather than Marvel. Of course, maybe I'm wrong, but maybe WCP could debunk it, seeing as he's debunked so many popular myths
Please do a character power tier list because that would make a lot of things clear. Also please do a video about the absurd powers of thanos
Personally I quickly felt something wasn’t right about the Prescience being the most powerful thing ever in DC even before I stumbled into this video. Like there is that Overvoid, then the Prime-Monitor, as well as The Writer(?), then there is Mxy in World’s Funnest where the writers made him boundless or something like that. Then there was the Prescience stating that he did not create himself. And now that you mentioned more DC characters that surpass the Prescience, such as Mordu, I feel that the Prescience would not even make it in a top ten list.
He isnt
Where did the idea that Michael is The Source even come from?
Dude great informative video as well and really love your content.U explain them so properly with their exact comic panels to back your words.Great Work as well as.Would be very hyped if their was a video on the dreaming as well as exploring the strongest beings in marvel too.Keep up the great work and have a great day.Thanks as all was for making my day great with your videos.
I'm not an expert at this sort of thing at all, but there was some things that struck me while you were talking. The idea of "the white page" you've probably already associated with being literally the blank page of the comic artist or writer, juxtaposed with Pralaya (who looks like ink, which already sortof kills my theory) being the place where a story idea comes from or banishment from a storyline or a forgotten idea. Then Retcon Corp. who's name couldn't be more obvious, and who's characters are literal blank page. In a sense, every character breaks the White Page by their existence. Then there's what the Presence said, that "no one can make themselves". The presence is made by the writer and artist, and those artists are made by their parents or their god. But let's say the Presence meant something different. Maybe there is no "highest being", but an infinite line of beings above him, or taken in the context of a comic, a possible infinite hierarchy of ideas. Come to think of it, even Pralaya is the personification of "idea", another layer of abstraction, and not "idea" itself. Anyhoo...
The presence is probably just the janitor.
It's his job to keep everything neat and tidy.
If he fails his boss will call in a professional cleaning crew and possibly oversee the job himself.
The presence is the boss
The claim that alien x is omnipotent is more pathetic
I hate that claim and everything that those people use as "proof" is as bad as the "proof" that Sitama fans use to prove that he's Omnipotent and Limitless and can One punch everything in Fiction and reality.
Same goes for Alien X but both are just as retarded.
@@CerealExperimentsMizuki lol well what you say is so true.
@@gabrielhughes8221 I've debated against someone who legitimately thought that because Sitama is apparently limitless and can One punch Lucifer (Samael) Morningstar and that Samael is only Star Level and Sitama is Universe level.
@@CerealExperimentsMizuki I'd believe that , yeah people like that always make Saitama something that he is not.
@@CerealExperimentsMizuki no limits fallacy
9:26 you could argue when lucifer said the dark presence wasnt his father he was being metaphorical, but
when confronted by Gabriel Lucifer went on to say he didnt kill the presence, if the presence were dead he would know, especially if he were the one to do it. the dark presence lucifer chopped up wasnt the real deal, he also called the presence omnipotent and said anything Gabriel THINKS happened was just a part of his plan. they literally could not be any more in your face about that not being the presence.
The presence has been confirmed by some authors to be the overvoid (if you want to ignore word of god statements that's completely fair).
On the page when the specter becomes the oversoul he still calls god supreme (obviously referring to the presence as that's the only person the specter calls god.)
14:04 the collective unconscious is not above the presence, even if you want to say its what hes referring to in that panel (which i highly doubt, im pretty sure its literally just a meta joke about the artists of DC), he only says it "shaped" him, not created him.
its been shown when perpetua is given energies from the source to create the multiverse the collective unconscious is just one of the powers gifted, and given that the source is a part of the presence or vice versa (i dont really care either way) it would make the collective a power granted by the presence. What he likely means when he says it shaped him (assuming he's referring to the collective) is people wanted to believe in a god so the light (the presence) was shaped into a god by the collective, this would also tie into the eclipso "god is dead" panel.
we're also shown the different forms of lucifer and one of them if the hand of the great darkness, when asked about it the author confirmed the great darkness is an aspect of lucifer. you can argue against twitter confirmations all day but that's literally on the page.
Much of this comment is really nitpicking stuff.
First of Lucifers conversation with Gabriel is prior to him investigating anything and knowing what actually goes on and just makes assumptions based on Gabriel telling him that God is dead and Lucifer was correct about The Presence planning for Gabriel to stab him and his "death" but non of that implies that it is not the real Presence everyone calls him God/Yahweh/The Presence anything else is headcanon. Trying to use his omnipotence statements as counter evidence doesn´t work either since the comic clarifies that these omni terms aren´t literal once by Elaine admitting so herself and by the statement that the void is beyond the omniscience of The Presence and if one wher eto use this exact argument for a character like Darksied everyone would laugh (rightfully so)
WOG is really useless when the Comics contradict it Overovid>Presence
Likewise trying to say that shaped is not synonymus with created in that Lucifer 2000 panel is just straight up coping. The Presence claims that nobody is his own maker/creator and Lucifer replies that The Presence is his own maker and The Presence replies that this ain´t true and that he was shaped by external forces. So unless you think The Presence is retarded asf and strawmanned Lucifers whole point he is saying he was created. There also plenty of other instances where this idea is reinforced. Perpetua is above the cu of the multiverse but as was shown multiple times there are lesser versions and aspects of the cu like the dreaming and the cu in it´s truest state goes beyond Perpetua.
Maybe go less of what a random twitter statement says and go off what is actually on the page like you preach, the scan says that these are "possible versions" of Lucifer not aspects these are things he could have been or will be at some point. The great evil beast is specifically not Lucifer. Cain says it is no fallen angel, Zatara says it is far greater thna Satan and Lucifer himself talks about it as a distinct entity, and the geb itself says to Spectre that the voice of gods doens´t talk through him which makes no sense ogf it was an aspect of Lucifer who is a creation of The Presence.
@@Dreamcaster06
"Lucifer says word for word "That's ridiculous. if he were dead, i'd know. And i'd definitely know if i were the one who did it. Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent. Whatever HAPPENED, whatever you THINK happened, it was a part of his design, that old bastard never does anything without a plan."
There's nothing contradicting the Overvoid being a part of the Presence.
Lucifer is the great darkness Michael is the Source Presence is the Over-void and all 5 are his creations.
Im not arguing shaped isnt synonymous with created, im saying it doesnt have to be, and i believe that statement was actually referring to the DC artists, not the collective. I simply presented an explanation for IF you want to believe its the collective he's talking about.
It's literally stated on the page (Lucifer 2018 issues #10) "can you not feel your AVATARS at your shoulder? All those Lucifers you HAVE BEEN and COULD BE" considering the great darkness already exists, its fair to say it doesnt fit into the "could be" category and rather fits into the "Have been" category. Unless you think she's saying the great darkness could retroactively become an avatar of lucifer, which 1, makes absolutely 0 sense, and 2 would still mean Lucifer is capable of overpowering the great darkness. but like it said, it obviously fits into the "Has been an avatar" category.
the way i see it, the source is Michael because spectre kind of straight up said so, and mandrakk said the power of the source is the power of the presence (Michael is the power of the presence)
and the darkness is Lucifer because its straight up stated on page and by an author "this is an avatar of Lucifer"
Making Michael and Lucifer the hands of darkness and light that fought before creation began
@@TFF_Onida Almost nothing here adreses anything I said it´s not enganging with any of the counter examples etc.
That was at the beginning of the run and like I said what Lucifer says here is correct since The Presence wanted Gabriel to stab him, doens´t adress my point lol
Overovid didn´t know what creation is The Presence does and Michael being the source was never stated.
I already gave an argument why shaped has to mean created and this aslo doesn´t adress any of the other examples that show cu>Presence
Lucifer becoming something that looks like the great darkness doens´t mean he overpowered it what also in that sma estory it is stated that Lucifer came to be in the darkness so it preceded him and I offered many more reasons why it can´t be the same entity as Lucifer which you like so much I said just ignored.
Spectre said the uni friedn is perhaps an aspect of Michael that isn´t the source. Cronos says that a portion of the godwave is the power of The Presence which is just referring to the god waves power that birthed all the gods it has nothing to do with Michael.
@@Dreamcaster06
Webcamparrot said the presence isnt the strongest and used Lucifer beating him as a point. i said Lucifer, by his own admission cant beat the presence, he said the presence is more powerful than him (calls him omnipotent) and says the dark god thing isnt the presence to begin with, it just has "some of him in there"
Over-void knew what creation was, it didnt know what the FLAW was. The FLAW was perpetua's multiverse which was corrupted, as pointed out by the hands.
If you want to believe "shaped" is referring to "created' then feel free to do so, but i'd argue if he's saying he was created he'd be referring to the artists of DC not the CU.
As for addressing the CU > Presence thing, i said the CU is just another power gifted to perpetua by the source in order to create the multiverse hence why the CU is beyond perpetua, its not her power it's of the source which is beyond beyond perpetua. Presence >> Source >> CU
He didnt "become something that looks like the great darkness" the great darkness was his avatar. as stated ON THE PAGE and by the WRITER. It straight up says so, if you dont think it makes sense that's your own business but that's what it says on the page. let me repeat:
"can you not feel your AVATARS at your shoulder? All those Lucifers you HAVE BEEN and COULD BE" considering the great darkness already exists, its fair to say it doesnt fit into the "could be" category and rather fits into the "Have been" category.
Specter says the Flaming hand is Michael or one of the other arch angels, when green lantern John stewert talked to the source itself, the source says, he IS the flaming, and mandrakk says the power of the source is the power of the presence, and michael is the power of the presence so the source is the flaming hand which is either Michael or the presence.
@@TFF_Onida Parrot used the Lucifer as a point to say The Presence isn´t supreme at no point was he saying Luicfer>Presence. And that you are not my father statement is clearly metaphorical literally everyone at every other point calls him The Presence.
Great more head canonm Mandrak says in unexpexted trhat he entered the flaw before it became the tripitch multiverse. So this flaw stuff was before Perpetua was a thing. Overvoid had no idea what the muiltiverse was the source activly sends hands to create stuff.
The Presence is not beyond the source and as I said what Perpetua was given is just a lesser form of the cu still not adressing the many showings of the cu being beyond The Presence.
The comic never says the word great darkness and idk why you are ignoring all the reasons I gavew why he can´t be the great darkness like how desperat can one be to force his own headcanon into the comic.
The source says it is a manifestation of him lol not that it is the hand. Also you just repeating the Cronos argument and even still saying Mandrak after I corredted you just shows how ignorant you are.
I feel like arguing with you is pointless all you do is repeat yourself add more head canon and ignore most of my points don´t you feel stupid forcing your inconsistent fanfictions into the comic?
This video is exactly what I wanted to see.
Keep up the good work!
The Presence isn't the most powerfull being , but it's the cuttest omnipotent dog i've never seen
Learn to spell🤦♂️
Honestly, I thought it was pretty obvious that The Presence wasn’t the most powerful being in DC. Guess I haven’t seen that many Presence fan boys.
I thought the Presence and the Source were like Yaldabaoth and the Monad. Or maybe its Presence=Demiurge, Source=Sophia, Overvoid=Monad
But then DC Comics went EVEN FURTHER BEYOND!!
John Porteous I know what the Demiurge and Sophia are, but I don’t know what the Monad is. Mind explaining?
No the presence is the strongszt
As someone looking in, I can't help but remember arguments with my brother that DC has serious power scaling issues and we were just talking a out Superman. Hearing anout all this other stuff, I'm starting to feel like he was right.
Marvel and DC both have scaling issues do to writers wanting to do different things with the characters.
The presence GETS SMACKED BY TOP BEINGS
No
Definitely also I would say In my opinion Doctor Manhattan if you look at Doomsday Clock
Great points and generally love your channel but this times you came off as a bit biased my friend, maybe just in my perception though. As much as in the comments there are the edgy ones making fun about presence fanboys, so csn one notice how they are very similar in their hate for the character, coming off as a bit of comic book snobs at times. I think the presence isn't the most powerful entity in dc (until some writer makes it that way again at least) but some of the 'debunks' here were really interpretated after your own liking, like the default scaling of hekate just bc of that statement about the other gods who walked on earth, I doubt the presence was taken into consideration in that comic, other than that quite the informative video. Nice work
The Hecate being stronger than The Presence stuff is some of the most blatant scaling I presented here dude. There are like 6 different pieces of strong evidence all pointing towards it. I went over most of it towards the end of my Mordru video.
Like you understand that The Presence was born from the collective unconscious/the dreaming right? I proved that several times over in this video a lone. Because the collective unconscious is just ONE PART of Hecate's being. The Presence was literally born from a small part of Hecate. But yeah dude I'm totally being biased right, despite her being repeatedly stated to be above him and despite The Presence needing to create Eclipso to siphon and limit her powers slightly because otherwise she would be unstoppable. Not to mention that the coming of the Upside Downman (who is equal to Hecate) was literally said to be worse than the coming of the Great Darkness the first time and that was something that The Presence was heavily rivalled by and may even have died against if not for Swamp Thing.
You can't use this whole author intent thing, you don't know the authors intent, you cannot possibly ever know the authors intent. Once the comic exists it exists separately from the author and anything that happens in it is open to deconstruction. Also for the record The Presence was literally directly mentioned in this comic, he was trying to make an alliance with Hell against the Otherkind, implying he can't defeat them on his own lol. So there goes your random head canon theory that the statements don't include The Presence.
@@WebCamParrot Why you gotta be a dick about it?
@@WebCamParrot I think Doctor Fate is also beyond the presence too because he is above the likes of Arion who is one of the Lords of order and he was able do defeat the The Darkworld which is the Great Darkness. And another is that he was able to do combat with Mordru on various times who is also beyond The Presence too. And lastly he was able to destroy the Sphere of gods which is something that is beyond the presence too. All these feats make even Classic Strange seem weak.
Nabu has some some outer scans but Arion is mostly weak when he appears as his magic source keep changing. Arion went from using the darkworld to the sun to equipment like helmet of fate that give power. Arion might be the strongest when utilising darkworld and that's why Merlin who is a rival of mordru is currently using Arion to steal the power of the great darkness.@@itzthedapperlionyt4332
According to the Dematteis though we're all right, kinda rendering this video moot but informative! I learned a lot about DC lore! Loving your videos! I'm subbing!
This video is truly a 'Supreme'ly good video
The Presence was defeated so many times and killed some many times
Proof the presence was defeated so many times?
@@MarkSamurai5 wasn't the presence beaten by Lucifer once?
And yet the people who "defeated him" were defeated by one on his creations
“We live within a dream but who is the dreamer” David Lynch.
I think power scaling Zelda would be interesting . I think a link vs sora battle would be pretty amazing
Sora is way above Link's league.
@@goofybutserious4807 not disagreeing but what makes you say that? Isn't link very powerful with all 3 triforce pieces at once?
@@meachew He's not dimensional level. Just planetary.
@@goofybutserious4807 and sora is universe strength it seems at the very least
@@goofybutserious4807 full triforce link is infinite universal with multi universal distance
So if the presence isn’t the all powerful dc character then who really is?
My first guess is Milkman Man
no one is, there are an infinite number of stories that view the previous one as fiction, so its an ever growing thing therefore no one is on top
@@shady8045 unless we get some Featherine esc character then yeah
probably the Overvoid
depends on what u think its canon
uwu or the unwritten (also known as the leviathan of all stories) if not then Greg Freely
talk about ignoring and stretching. You are REACHING for this one.
So Pralaya is DC's equivalent of Oblivion from Marvel?
Correct.
It makes me wonder if both of them are just aspects of a greater being
@@crossfire4691 it could be There alot of claimed stated otherwise.
@@gabrielhughes8221 I think they're above greater beings, Oblivion claimed to be there before creation itself, and that he'll be there after creation, when he claims everything
@@tanyasaffell4943 Right yeah I'd remember. For right on both side of DC and Marvel comics never make it clear enough who is the Superior God. But by this their cant say because of the Comic Code they go by because of Religious beliefs. That's why On DC comics publishers God go by many names , titles and different aspects of God or gods. the first appearance of "The Voice" was in the 1940 origin of the Spectre - but they have traditionally used surrogate concepts and names rather than refer to the Abrahamic deity directly. The comics are published under the Comics Code, a set of ethical guidelines drawn up in the 1950s in reaction to anti-comic book hysteria. The Code does not explicitly refer to God, but does say that "ridicule or attack on any religious or racial group is never permissible."[2]Later revisions of the Code are phrased in terms of respecting religious beliefs and religious institutions, which may account for the comics' hesitancy when dealing with God.
The lack of a central doctrine means that multiple "aspects" of God have been introduced by different writers.
So it stated that in DC comics publishers but it also go out to Marvel as well.
sounds like you just don't like The presence or what he represents. Also you have to decide which presence the first one left and Elaine Belloc became the next one. First one is supreme and infinite and eternal.
Coriel Gaming Its not that he doesn’t like the Presence, he doesn’t like the misconception wank The Presence gets. The first one, which he mentions in the video, while he is infinite and eternal, was made by the dreaming and formed by the Collective Unconscious as said in the video.
@@van8510 he definitely doesn't like the presence
@@van8510Well isn’t that the case with everything else? The dreaming always existed ever since the first being or entity. The presence is just one of trillions dreamed up.
@@van8510There is no “most powerful being” in dc. There are just powerful characters that do things and those things have some impact.
Hello WebcamParrot can you do Strange Visitor Superman, Red death Flash, God Flash, God Green Lantern, Volthoom, Perpetua, Batman who laughs, Mother Night/Father Time, Endless members, Imperiex, Krona, High Father, Phantom Stranger, John Constitine, Raven, Rama Kushna, The Word, CAS, Swamp Thing, Takion, Starbreaker, The Merciless, Barbatos, Ellain Balocc, Micheal, Ares, Bat-Mite, Black Racer, Captain Adom Moniter, Decreator, Doctor Fate, Zitanna, Kismet, Empty Hand, The Infinite Man, etc................
if The Presence Died, those it mean Death is above him?
Nah, Death doesn’t necessarily have power over anyone she claims, she’s just there for them when they die. Dream even says in Sandman that Lucifer and the Presence are the most powerful beings he’s aware of, and since Death is his sister, she would obviously be included in that as well.
@@TheIdiotNamedJoe then explain when the presence was killed by gabriel, and when he said himself that he is neither the supreme being and there are some above him and luci knows that, and when the writer said that the presence was shape by an external force which is all the beings that exist by worshipping and imagining he is real like DREAM and even the writer said that The Presence was Created by Dream of all humanity means Morpheus created The Presence since he is the Dream Itself
@@StrikerCup79 what the fuck are you talking about you lunatic?
@@TheIdiotNamedJoe read all the articles the DC Writers said about The Presence being shape by External Force(which was said is all the Dreamers all humanity who Worship something it doesn't exist and this belief created The Presence himself which said by the writer himself that The Presence was shaped through the Dream of External Forces means that even the Presence is bound to the siblings known as
Death
Destiny
Dream
Desire
Delerium
Despair
Destruction
Because The Presence was shown to be created by Dream of believers
And died in the hand of Gabriel and even he stated himself that Luci has the power to kill him means he is bound to Dream and Death.
And Destiny is to be said know all that things that happen and never happen like The Watchers so means that he has the power to sees The Presence Destiny because even The Presence himself stated "true i am eternal but even i was SHAPE BY EXTERNAL BEINGS, you know who they are"
I love this channel. I am fairly new to comics but found this channel on quora lol.
That is certainly an interesting place to find this channel lol. Glad you enjoy.
@WebCamParrot, loved the video but I was wondering where it is stated that Hecate created the dreaming or if I just misunderstood. Just got a bit lost and wanted to know where that was confirmed
I disagree in some statements made in this video like scaling perpetua above the presence when she basically answers to the source(the presence). The presece is infinite and eternal(basically the source) and he is shaped by what our imaginations see him to be. How can you say he was made by us when you can basically ask yourself who made creation in the first place.So what you said literally makes no sense. Im not saying hes omnipotent but you just made some wrong statements. I think the only people above him should be the Overvoid and the Empty hand
And don't forget about the Leviathan of stories as well man.
If the presence is god, wouldn't that make the fan boys Christians?
But now it's debunked
´´no matter the strenght of the combatants, the winner will always be the one that the writer wants to win´´ stan lee
I think the problem with the presence is that he has so many things that are related to the abrahamic God. I've changed my mind a little bit about it, but it's hard to change the way you've thought about something for so long after only one video. But wow this video really re-enforced the fact that so many companies and universes have done the same thing with having a being representing the darkness that existed before and that will exist at the end of the universe. I mean marvel has mikaboshi, knull, and the black winter, Supernatural has Amara, etc.
You know DC’s a “special” verse when it’s god isn’t even it’s most powerful character
LMAO. Facts though
Spawn's universe is the exact same way
Incredibly Warhammer40k is considered a stronger verse.
@@abdoul5176 Ah Papa Nurgle brewing up some new diseases and Slaanesh just keeps raping the Aeldari with spikes.
@@Dream-qy9ir Even Supernaturals God has an equally powerful sister.
The presence and the Great darkness is basically he one above all and the one below all