@@jhoughjr1 The problem of evil is easy. There has to be bad with the good. I heard Norm MacDonald of all people explain it the best, God only creating good would only be creating an extension of Himself. But, why would He create men in his image just to damn them to hell? An angry, vengeful God could certainly do that but not the God that sent his only son to die for us, and that we are supposed to believe loved us before we were even born.
A man who rejects God eternally could be punished eternally without contradiction. But if a man rejects God in life, then through the torment of Hell comes to understand his errors, would God continue to punish him for all eternity? I don’t see how Jesus could allow one of his disciples to be eternally damned. This is how the tv show The Good Place “solves” Universalism, by punishing sinners up until they’ve renounced their sins.
What you are referring to is known as post-mortem salvation. And like universalism, it seems to be a topic that Christians have not come to any real consensus on. I would be interested to hear Zoomer's take on it.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 To be honest at first I thought it was gonna be a video about a different game with similar graphics and name. And that it was not a good game and people were trying to save it lol.
Although I would consider myself a "Very confident hopeful-Universalist" and I don't really know how to respond to that claim of the double-standards of how eternal or everlasting are translated, but this was still a great video where you brought up many great points!
I don't think there needs to be a double standard. You can interpret the passage from Matthew as saying that there will be punishment in the age to come and reward in the age to come. That verse may not support eternal reward, but other verses do.
I highly recommend the RUclips channel "Total Victory of Christ" and his series on "Aions" and "lake of fire" which goes into the translation issues of "hell". Highly recommend!
Have you read "That All Shall Be Saved" by David Bentley Hart? I'm not in lockstep with his conclusions (if he even makes any in this book), but his approach was intuitive for me. I'll merge a summary of it with my position like this: If indeed, at the point of an unsaved person's physical death on Earth, they are immediately sent to everlasting and immense torture, with no possibility of the torture being satisfied, warranted by the person's sin on Earth (committed with un-eternal and incomplete rational knowledge of the consequence), and no possibility for knowing Christ such as to meet the same conditions for salvation as there are on Earth.... then we occupy a universe with the most evil, unjust, and terrifying Creator imaginable. If indeed that is an evil and terrifying reality, then the perfectly good God that does exist knows that better than anyone -- He COULD NOT operate that way. It all comes back to God's nature. Whatever is the most perfectly just and most perfectly merciful outcome will occur. The doctrine of eternal torment is the most often cited as the reason for leaving when I talk to former Christians. We must understand that most people think less doctrinally and very relationally. The only way to frame eternal torment as relationally beneficial is if most humans around you are raping and pillaging your women and children (which, hey, wouldn't have been too far off in pagan Africa and Europe). That is not the case -- there is no longer a way to frame it as relationally beneficial. People will, fairly, feel abused and eventually leave. The only way to prevent that if you believe in eternal torment is to exceed it with unfathomable mercy. I would rather you believe that God is perfectly merciful and just and be wrong about the afterlife, than be "right" about the afterlife and believe that God is perfectly evil and terrifying. Besides, that first paragraph inserts a lot of assumptions that are not in Scripture. Is physical Earthly death the cutoff for our chance at salvation? What if conditions for it are met afterward? Didn't Christ propitiate for the sins of the whole world anyway? (1 John 2:2 is a verse traditionalists need serious contention with) Is punishment purely retributive, or ultimately therapeutic? It's a Western assumption to say it must be purely retributive. That said, I question whether anyone actually believes in eternal torment as I've framed it. I mean "believe" in the strongest, and therefore most plain, sense possible -- taking it to its logical conclusion of constant anxiety and zealotry because each wasted second amounts to infinite torture for someone else. I don't see that in Acts, so I'm inclined to think the Apostles believed in something different -- some different framing, maybe straight up apokatastasis, I don't know. I contend that the bare minimum Christians are bound to is hope.
@@Saurian25 No, Universalism is the only answer. Christ is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present, all-loving and all-willing, Infernalists and Annihilationists deny these fundamental truths about God and therefore; deny Him - whether they admit it or not.
I am Orthodox Christian and I believe in some weak form of Universalism. Basically, I think that there are many good people who were just born in different cultures but still do their best to be good according to some local form of established moral which maybe comes close to what is accepted in Christianity. Of course, many pagan beliefs are unacceptable and inexcusable and practitioners may go to hell (It is God who has authority over that matter and no other). This is just what I think, it may be untrue.
Out of all doctrines regarding eternal death, I lean more towards annihilationism, revelations refers to hell as having been "cast into the lake of fire.", despite the fact people describe hell AS the lake of fire, to me this indicates the idea of hell not existing after the second death much like how death will, the eternal punishment for sin being eternal death directly opposes the "eternal life" with God. I don't know if this counts as some sort of universalism but it's interesting to think about/
Plus, fire destroys, does it not? Just because it says Hell is eternal doesn't mean that it it is eternal conscious torment. It could just mean that Hell itself will burn forever even if its contents will not. The Bible also refers to Hell as the "second death" as if physical death is the first, and Hell is the death of the soul and spirit of a human. Also, when Jesus was teaching the fear of God, in Matthew 10:28, He said God can destroy your soul in Hell. "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Sure but couldn’t “everlasting fire” also mean that the hell dimension itself will always be a feature of creation? Like it’ll be there forever but the individual souls in there aren’t necessarily there forever? Or better yet, maybe it’s only “everlasting” insofar as however long it is needed to exist, in order to purify everything thoroughly? Whereas “everlasting life” is more direct in its implications of eternal life for individuals. In Jude 1:7 the fire is described as “eternal/everlasting” but is later extinguished.
The opposite of life is DEATH, not punishment. Anihalationalism makes the most sense because the opposite of life is DEATH. Eternal death, not torture.
There are good Christians who believe the Bible is divinely inspired. They might not be your cup of tea, but they believe in the Resurrection and try to live as good followers of Jesus; and that makes you clearly Christian. Universalism is no “weirder” than any other thing argued about that’s touched on in the Bible.
I like the idea of a "hopeful universalism". We should not rejoice in the eternal damnation of our fellow humans, but there is little to no hint of a universal redemption in scripture (unless, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the Apocalypse of Peter is proven to have been written by Peter). However, Peter's Apocalypse was rejected by the Nicene Council, as it appears to have been written too late to have been Peter's word and, if universalism were to be true, what is the point of Jesus' Gospel and the work of the Church if not to save mankind? It is a hope beyond hope, but I wish not for the majority of mankind to be eternally tormented and apart from God
If Apocalypse of Peter turns out to be true we have much bigger issues than eternal Hell to worry about since it establishes a punishment for "disobedient slaves".
God was still good before there was evil to contrast it with. Are you saying there can be no joy in salvation and no reason for it without the opposite torture of the damned?
You cannot be more merciful than God, your creator. If you cannot rejoice in ECT being real then God cannot damn his creation to such a place. Psalm 62:12 Also to You, O Lord, belongs mercy; For You render to each one according to his work. George Macdonald has a great sermon called Justice in which he argues that God's mercy is not distinct from his judgement. Mercy and judgement are not distinct qualities of God, they are one and the same. Meditate on this verse and there is no way you can believe in Eternal Conscious Torment.
@@guyontheinternet8891the gospel is arguably strongest when looked at from a universalist lens. Christian universalists believe that all will be redeemed THROUGH Christ. Not simply “just because.” Universalists believe the redeeming power of the gospel can and will fully and completely defeat sin.
@@mburumorris3166 Beautifully put. Like seriously. I was under no doubt in being a universalist but if I am ever in doubt or trying to convince someone else I will certainly come back to your comment.
I recently came across your channel, and I appreciate your work! It is refreshing to have a pop-level Protestant perspective out there that is theologically traditional but not evangelical. I recently encountered a view called "inductive universalism", which is the idea that eternal conscious torment is always a possibility if there were people who would perpetually reject God into eternity, but inductively that is unlikely so universalism is most likely true. I think I would term myself an inductive non-universalist, because I adopt a similar framework with the opposite intuition haha. I think it is probable that there will be people who eternally, perpetually reject God. As a side note, I like your music! Have you ever considered working with some different software or sound libraries to get a more "realistic" mockup of your music?
I like that view. We can put it very simply. If there exists at least one person who has ever lived who will eternally and perpetually reject God, then universalism is false. That's the thing, too -- it need only be one. So, perhaps the more useful question is that of scale. I tend to think the number of people who will eventually be saved is greater than a traditionalist may say, but fewer than a universalist/annhilitationist/Great-Divorce-Style-Purgationist may say. Who's closer? I'm undecided.
Belief in eternal hell is why I stopped being a christian. I legitimately cannot fathom how anyone thinks infinite torture is a justifiable concept, let alone something that a just and merciful god would allow.
@@TheDestructiveGiant But God is the only one who gives life, if you don't accept him, if u reject que truth you are not gonna get eternal life, and you somehow have to be punished because you sinned and you didn't repent
@@lavrador4729 A god that is capable of preventing infinite torture from occurring but chooses not to (and in fact actively causes it to occur) is evil and the only moral thing to do would be to reject him If a mother murdered her child for disobeying her the fact that she gave the child life wouldn't justify the murder
God's mercy arises from the promise of salvation from Jesus Christ. God's justice arises from the punishment that comes from choosing sin over God. How could God be truly just if he forgave everyone who strayed from him of their own free will? He couldn't be by definition. Additionally, I would add that I don't really believe God "sends" anyone to hell. When you reject God and die, you go to where God isn't present at all; everyone sends themselves to hell through their own free will. It just so happens that existence without any trace of God is torture. I'd recommend you read "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis. It's an absolutely fantastic book on what hell could potentially look like.
@@redmusic26 There is no standard of justice by which an infinite punishment is suitable for a finite crime. Before you say it, the death penalty is not an infinite punishment. Infinite torture serves no purpose. Every time hell is mentioned or alluded to in the book of Matthew it's accompanied by language that clearly indicates that God is the one sending people there.
Is universalism heretical? If I converted to Christianity, I think I would probably need to be a universalist, but I also would not want to join some non-denominational church. How would traditional Catholic and Protestant churches receive universalism? Is hopeful universalism okay?
At 7:50 you point out the Daily Reformation guy argued he is a Universalist because in the early church Universalism was prominent / popular. At 8:06 you make the excellent point that just because something is popular doesn't mean it is true. But at 8:10 concerning rejecting Universalism you say "when the early church is in like unanimous agreement about something, then I think we need to basically believe it." Uh . . . It appears you're doing exactly what the Daily Reformation guy did. Following this you said, "when the church actually studied this issue they ended up rejecting Universalism which is why the Athanasian Creed explicitly talks about eternal punishment." I thought to myself, "Aha! Redeemed Zoomer is getting to the heart of the matter. We should accept or reject Universalism based on what God has revealed to us in His word." But at 8:40 you said, "So if we're going to appeal to the authority of the early church we need to also appeal to the authority of the church as a whole and understand the church has the authority to come to consensuses on some issues and determine which things are heretical." *Oy!* Are you saying the church has the authority to determine what is true and what is heretical? If you are saying this I would like to recommend you shift your paradigm concerning what has authority in a Christian's life. Ask yourself, what led the church to write the Athanasian Creed? It was the Scriptures that led the church to promote the truths we find in the Athanasian Creed. We don't believe those truths because we find them in the Athanasian Creed. We believe those truths because we find them in the Scriptures which the church restated in the Creed. We don't believe something because the church said it. That would make us like the Thessalonians who believed Paul's messages without checking the Scriptures. We believe something because we find it in the Scriptures. That would make us like the Bereans who believed Paul's messages after checking what he said against the Scriptures. (Acts 17 : 11 "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.")
Redeemed Zoomer is saying that the church defines heresy (on subjects not fully expounded upon in scripture) based on what the scripture says. When the scripture isn’t crystal clear, church consensus and creeds are very useful.
So I have been thinking about faith and spirituality because of life and getting older etc. I was raised Christian but have grown jaded and cynical of the church. Recently have decided to explore it again, but I have some reservations that I hope you had answers to. 1. For those that have never heard about Christianity, never exposed or never had the chance to declare their faith before death (e.g: miscarriage) How then are these people saved and if they are not, isn’t that unfortunate (especially if say some are genuinely good people). Is the answer just, well sucks for them? 2. How does Christianity differ from other religions that have been around for probably as long as Christianity has been, like Islam, Buddhism etc. (Disclaimer: my knowledge on religion is limited) Love to hear what you think or even make a video about it! Thanks!
1. Those who have sinned but not heard of the gospel will not be saved. I wish they were, I really do. But they are not. As for those with mental illness and are unable to understand the gospel, there’s a Mike Winger video and he provides scripture which suggests these will be saved and are near to God. As for children and babies and the unborn, scripture strongly shows they will be saved. 1 Samuel shows this. 2. What separates Christianity is its rooted in history and not merely spiritual/philosophic teaching like Buddhism or Hinduism. In comparison to Islam, the Bible is inspired (shown by prophecy) and the Historical Person of Christ matches up with the scriptures. Always remember that Jesus is not His representatives. He is holy and sinless, even we who are saved will fall short. Put your trust in Jesus my friend! I hope this was of some help.
I was reminded of a bible verse when reading your first question, Romans 1 verse 20. "For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God". (NLT) God bless you! Keep asking questions, and reading scripture so that they may be answered:)
Regarding point number one) Some theologians, not all, have proposed something known as invincible ignorance. This idea basically says that yes, there are people who through no fault of their own have not encountered the Christian faith, or have a limited understanding of it, and that god takes these circumstances into account. This does not guarantee salvation though. I am a similar boat as you. I was raised Christian, and now I am agnostic. I am attempting to get back in touch with Christianity, and so I have been exploring various different churches/denominations. I confess, that overall, I am still on the fence. I do not believe that I could join a church that was not open to the idea of some form of universalism, or at the very least, some form of post-mortem salvation.
12:30 Not necessarily. Remember Revelation ends with Hell being thrown into the Lake of Fire and a "New Heaven and New Earth". The Damned obviously won't get to enter Heaven but they may be saved in the New Creation. Just a possible Eschaton since the Bible talks about dual resurrections.
What were the theological reasons for implementing something in your church architecture that can't be obtained except by going to hell? I can think of a few good reasons but I'd like to hear if you had a thought process about that.
Believing God doesn’t send people to Hell does NOT mean you think He lacks the ability. It stems from the belief that God’s love is so immense and His logic so unfathomable - He exists outside of time and space, let’s remember - that He chooses to save even the worst of us. Don’t believe it if you want! But it is rooted in the tradition of trying to understand God, not this strawman of “progressive” Christians just making up whatever they want. I love your videos, as I’ve said many times before, but there’s ROOM for progressive Christians in a secularizing society. Having 30% or so of Christians be accepting of LGBT people should be a TINY price to pay for allowing the Global Church to retain more of its cultural relevancy and continue to help society.
If god is all powerful, why not do it yesterday? Why not use his infinite knowledge and power to show people the error of their ways without resorting to allowing them to end up in such a hell?
I'm glad you give the view a fair shake. I'd say universalism has its place in some conversions because Hell is such a nasty view for some people to stomach that if you can bring someone into faith by toning it down. Permissible but not to be dogmatically asserted.
I would say that conversion is practically impossible with the infernalist viewpoint. Why would anyone choose to believe that God is permitting the devil to torture His creation for all eternity? I propose that nobody who wasn’t raised very dogmatically actually really believes in eternal hell, even if they say they do.
@@AbatedToast77 Read the Bible for *once* . The Bible says that the devil, along with his other angels, will also be thrown into the Lake of Fire in the future … And there is nothing the Bible that says, in the meantime, that they are tormenting/torturing anyone.
@@Saurian25 Annihilationism is a perfectly valid viewpoint, no reason to be a dick about it. I think all of us will be reconciled with God eventually but there is certainly some support for the final death. I just don’t feel like my life or creation in general would have much purpose if a lot of it was summarily destroyed its creator.
Go to Biggest Jesus Channel, RevaGo channel, Martin Zender, Ace theo, Cathrine Holmes, Liam Mcallister, Paul's Gospel channel especially look into the word trinity from Faith Ignitor channel and you will learn and hopefully realize the truth about the True Almighty God and the True Lord Christ Jesus, God bless you all and keep you all safe.
I think it's eternal death and not eternal torture It is described as darkness Since it's described both as eternal death and eternal torture in the Bible, it could be conceivable that eternal death is for humans that are not saved, while eternal torture is for demons That makes.more sense because demons aren't savable and have committed the unforgivable sin
Imagine yourself a glowing light being, invincible and perfectly loving, and Judas is next to you. He stabs you in the face when he can but you don't feel it. Infact you are godlike so you modify judas knife stabs to feel like tickles. He is a theif but you control infinity, so you can just will him to have all he ever hoped for, BUUUUT instead you chose to torture him for eternity. Something does not jive. That is just wild speculation, though I don't know what God thinks. Maybe it is just conscious torment but I've discovered the things tormenting my conscience are not human, they are dark spiritual things. I have figured out that it's in the shredding of my nervous system that they feel cold I wonder if that's where people get the idea of death feeling cold. Certainly not a universal feeling I have heard the near death stories of light or warmth or love, but these interstitial things, it's similar to frostbite I once had in my hands but instead it's for my mind. For sure there are right and good things and good intentions and respect and such, for me it was all ripped from me in a day. I was not careful around some scary things. Overly seeing good in things without acknowledging where they were wrong. Who knows. Again these are just guesses and speculations from experience.
Everyone has a chance to be saved but not everyone has an equal chance. The predestined teaching teaches that some ppl are predestined to be hated like Esau or the up coming antichrist. God created vessels for glory and vessels for shame. So maybe eternal damnation ends in eternal death, but even If someone could come out of hell he couldn't bc the old world is by then already wiped out. So God could recreate worldtime in a timeless way like he is timeless. And therefore God remains just and good and there is no shadow within his actions. Remember when in Hebrew when it states that our god is an eternal consuming flame 🔥. So therefore eternal punishment would create eternal shadow within God which is wicked to him, bc he is the heaven and he is also hell, bc he is the Lord. I think this is kind of the only answer. In addition to that God have given us all the words we speak so maybe we don't even have the words we need to understand what will happen next (after time ends and eternity starts)
Gen 33:10 for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God. This is how the story of Jacob and Esau finally ends. Check out the book by Talbott called The Inescapable Love of God. Romans 9 to 11 exists in a dialectic. Romans 9 is the hypothesis that is negated by Paul himself in Rom 11
It concerns me that this guy is getting so much publicity. He clearly hasn’t found a stable point in his spiritual journey that actually values human life and perpetuity, and still entertains harmful ideas about human nature (a person that rejects god forever can only exist if people don’t change assuming everything else he’s said is true, which would imply people can be truly evil, and therefore people have no reason to be good besides avoiding hell if they even can change)
That's soul sleep. There are certain verses that support it (the living know that they shall die but the dead know nothing, in Sheol no one can praise you, those in the ground will awake, etc) but there are other verses that seem to contradict the doctrine like the harrowing of Hades. I'd say this view makes more sense than Eternal Conscious Torment simply for the fact that the Bible doesn't make clear distinctions between the General and Particular judgements.
I had the idea to make Minecraft videos with a Christian basis and I am glad that you are doing this! Love it!
Open to ideas/suggestions!
@@redeemedzoomer6053 Have you done anything on mormonism/JW?
Somehow the aesthetic fits perfectly
Evil being a deprivation of good solves the problem of evil to me.
@@jhoughjr1 The problem of evil is easy. There has to be bad with the good. I heard Norm MacDonald of all people explain it the best, God only creating good would only be creating an extension of Himself.
But, why would He create men in his image just to damn them to hell? An angry, vengeful God could certainly do that but not the God that sent his only son to die for us, and that we are supposed to believe loved us before we were even born.
A man who rejects God eternally could be punished eternally without contradiction.
But if a man rejects God in life, then through the torment of Hell comes to understand his errors, would God continue to punish him for all eternity? I don’t see how Jesus could allow one of his disciples to be eternally damned.
This is how the tv show The Good Place “solves” Universalism, by punishing sinners up until they’ve renounced their sins.
What you are referring to is known as post-mortem salvation. And like universalism, it seems to be a topic that Christians have not come to any real consensus on. I would be interested to hear Zoomer's take on it.
That would be purgatory
Makes sense
This is not what I was expecting from a Minecraft video but as a fellow believer I am quite surprised and enjoyed it greatly
haha glad to hear it! Were you expecting it to be a normal Minecraft video?
@@redeemedzoomer6053 To be honest at first I thought it was gonna be a video about a different game with similar graphics and name. And that it was not a good game and people were trying to save it lol.
Although I would consider myself a "Very confident hopeful-Universalist" and I don't really know how to respond to that claim of the double-standards of how eternal or everlasting are translated, but this was still a great video where you brought up many great points!
I don't think there needs to be a double standard. You can interpret the passage from Matthew as saying that there will be punishment in the age to come and reward in the age to come. That verse may not support eternal reward, but other verses do.
I highly recommend the RUclips channel "Total Victory of Christ" and his series on "Aions" and "lake of fire" which goes into the translation issues of "hell". Highly recommend!
Have you read "That All Shall Be Saved" by David Bentley Hart? I'm not in lockstep with his conclusions (if he even makes any in this book), but his approach was intuitive for me. I'll merge a summary of it with my position like this:
If indeed, at the point of an unsaved person's physical death on Earth, they are immediately sent to everlasting and immense torture, with no possibility of the torture being satisfied, warranted by the person's sin on Earth (committed with un-eternal and incomplete rational knowledge of the consequence), and no possibility for knowing Christ such as to meet the same conditions for salvation as there are on Earth.... then we occupy a universe with the most evil, unjust, and terrifying Creator imaginable.
If indeed that is an evil and terrifying reality, then the perfectly good God that does exist knows that better than anyone -- He COULD NOT operate that way.
It all comes back to God's nature. Whatever is the most perfectly just and most perfectly merciful outcome will occur.
The doctrine of eternal torment is the most often cited as the reason for leaving when I talk to former Christians. We must understand that most people think less doctrinally and very relationally. The only way to frame eternal torment as relationally beneficial is if most humans around you are raping and pillaging your women and children (which, hey, wouldn't have been too far off in pagan Africa and Europe). That is not the case -- there is no longer a way to frame it as relationally beneficial. People will, fairly, feel abused and eventually leave.
The only way to prevent that if you believe in eternal torment is to exceed it with unfathomable mercy. I would rather you believe that God is perfectly merciful and just and be wrong about the afterlife, than be "right" about the afterlife and believe that God is perfectly evil and terrifying.
Besides, that first paragraph inserts a lot of assumptions that are not in Scripture. Is physical Earthly death the cutoff for our chance at salvation? What if conditions for it are met afterward? Didn't Christ propitiate for the sins of the whole world anyway? (1 John 2:2 is a verse traditionalists need serious contention with) Is punishment purely retributive, or ultimately therapeutic? It's a Western assumption to say it must be purely retributive.
That said, I question whether anyone actually believes in eternal torment as I've framed it. I mean "believe" in the strongest, and therefore most plain, sense possible -- taking it to its logical conclusion of constant anxiety and zealotry because each wasted second amounts to infinite torture for someone else. I don't see that in Acts, so I'm inclined to think the Apostles believed in something different -- some different framing, maybe straight up apokatastasis, I don't know.
I contend that the bare minimum Christians are bound to is hope.
Excellent video my friend! just a note - the music does get a tad loud towards the end, becomes slightly trickier to hear ya.
Thanks for telling me! Will fix that next time
I'm borderline universalist, but God is ultimately in control of that not me
God is not Glorified if Eternal Hell is true-
God is a tyrant and worthy of no devotion, ONLY fear- if eternal hell is true.
Why
@@ImTitan16 Because eternal torture is evil? Something God is not? He is the Good Shepherd for a reason, not the Adversary.
That is why annihilationism the answer, *not* universalism.
@@Saurian25 No, Universalism is the only answer. Christ is all-powerful, all-knowing, all-present, all-loving and all-willing, Infernalists and Annihilationists deny these fundamental truths about God and therefore; deny Him - whether they admit it or not.
@@lordanglish No, again, it isn’t … but keep being deluded with this false and nonsensical doctrine.
I am Orthodox Christian and I believe in some weak form of Universalism. Basically, I think that there are many good people who were just born in different cultures but still do their best to be good according to some local form of established moral which maybe comes close to what is accepted in Christianity. Of course, many pagan beliefs are unacceptable and inexcusable and practitioners may go to hell (It is God who has authority over that matter and no other). This is just what I think, it may be untrue.
Amen
Out of all doctrines regarding eternal death, I lean more towards annihilationism, revelations refers to hell as having been "cast into the lake of fire.", despite the fact people describe hell AS the lake of fire, to me this indicates the idea of hell not existing after the second death much like how death will, the eternal punishment for sin being eternal death directly opposes the "eternal life" with God.
I don't know if this counts as some sort of universalism but it's interesting to think about/
Annihilation turned me into a Gnostic I don’t belive it it was taught by my old cult
Plus, fire destroys, does it not? Just because it says Hell is eternal doesn't mean that it it is eternal conscious torment. It could just mean that Hell itself will burn forever even if its contents will not. The Bible also refers to Hell as the "second death" as if physical death is the first, and Hell is the death of the soul and spirit of a human. Also, when Jesus was teaching the fear of God, in Matthew 10:28, He said God can destroy your soul in Hell. "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
Sure but couldn’t “everlasting fire” also mean that the hell dimension itself will always be a feature of creation? Like it’ll be there forever but the individual souls in there aren’t necessarily there forever? Or better yet, maybe it’s only “everlasting” insofar as however long it is needed to exist, in order to purify everything thoroughly? Whereas “everlasting life” is more direct in its implications of eternal life for individuals. In Jude 1:7 the fire is described as “eternal/everlasting” but is later extinguished.
I believe hell is eternal because the devil and his demons should be eternally punished, so he'll can't disappear.
@SandyMacfarlane-ou6rn Precisely. As an annihilationist, I'm talking about the devil and not us, humans. Our toment is temporary, not eternal.
I agree with anihalationaism. Mot everyone deserves Heaven, but eternal torment makes no sense.
If you want to hear what christian universalist actually believe look at the total victory of christ or the love unrelenting channel's.
The opposite of life is DEATH, not punishment. Anihalationalism makes the most sense because the opposite of life is DEATH. Eternal death, not torture.
I love these videos!
There are good Christians who believe the Bible is divinely inspired. They might not be your cup of tea, but they believe in the Resurrection and try to live as good followers of Jesus; and that makes you clearly Christian. Universalism is no “weirder” than any other thing argued about that’s touched on in the Bible.
I like the idea of a "hopeful universalism". We should not rejoice in the eternal damnation of our fellow humans, but there is little to no hint of a universal redemption in scripture (unless, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the Apocalypse of Peter is proven to have been written by Peter). However, Peter's Apocalypse was rejected by the Nicene Council, as it appears to have been written too late to have been Peter's word and, if universalism were to be true, what is the point of Jesus' Gospel and the work of the Church if not to save mankind? It is a hope beyond hope, but I wish not for the majority of mankind to be eternally tormented and apart from God
If Apocalypse of Peter turns out to be true we have much bigger issues than eternal Hell to worry about since it establishes a punishment for "disobedient slaves".
God was still good before there was evil to contrast it with. Are you saying there can be no joy in salvation and no reason for it without the opposite torture of the damned?
You cannot be more merciful than God, your creator. If you cannot rejoice in ECT being real then God cannot damn his creation to such a place.
Psalm 62:12 Also to You, O Lord, belongs mercy; For You render to each one according to his work.
George Macdonald has a great sermon called Justice in which he argues that God's mercy is not distinct from his judgement.
Mercy and judgement are not distinct qualities of God, they are one and the same. Meditate on this verse and there is no way you can believe in Eternal Conscious Torment.
@@guyontheinternet8891the gospel is arguably strongest when looked at from a universalist lens. Christian universalists believe that all will be redeemed THROUGH Christ. Not simply “just because.” Universalists believe the redeeming power of the gospel can and will fully and completely defeat sin.
@@mburumorris3166 Beautifully put. Like seriously. I was under no doubt in being a universalist but if I am ever in doubt or trying to convince someone else I will certainly come back to your comment.
If you deserve eternal punishment for sinning against a eternal God then how did Jesus pay for our sins if he didn’t suffer a eternal punishment?
The Bible says the wages of sin is death and that Jesus payed that fine, not that the wages of sin is eternal conscious torment.
Exactly, DEATH is a recurring theme, so I think it's eternal DEATH, not eternal torture.
Jesus is God so His sacrifice is worth infinitt
I recently came across your channel, and I appreciate your work! It is refreshing to have a pop-level Protestant perspective out there that is theologically traditional but not evangelical.
I recently encountered a view called "inductive universalism", which is the idea that eternal conscious torment is always a possibility if there were people who would perpetually reject God into eternity, but inductively that is unlikely so universalism is most likely true. I think I would term myself an inductive non-universalist, because I adopt a similar framework with the opposite intuition haha. I think it is probable that there will be people who eternally, perpetually reject God.
As a side note, I like your music! Have you ever considered working with some different software or sound libraries to get a more "realistic" mockup of your music?
I like that view. We can put it very simply. If there exists at least one person who has ever lived who will eternally and perpetually reject God, then universalism is false. That's the thing, too -- it need only be one. So, perhaps the more useful question is that of scale.
I tend to think the number of people who will eventually be saved is greater than a traditionalist may say, but fewer than a universalist/annhilitationist/Great-Divorce-Style-Purgationist may say. Who's closer? I'm undecided.
Belief in eternal hell is why I stopped being a christian.
I legitimately cannot fathom how anyone thinks infinite torture is a justifiable concept, let alone something that a just and merciful god would allow.
@LeafBoi there is no crime for which infinite torture is a justifiable punishment
@@TheDestructiveGiant But God is the only one who gives life, if you don't accept him, if u reject que truth you are not gonna get eternal life, and you somehow have to be punished because you sinned and you didn't repent
@@lavrador4729 A god that is capable of preventing infinite torture from occurring but chooses not to (and in fact actively causes it to occur) is evil and the only moral thing to do would be to reject him
If a mother murdered her child for disobeying her the fact that she gave the child life wouldn't justify the murder
God's mercy arises from the promise of salvation from Jesus Christ. God's justice arises from the punishment that comes from choosing sin over God. How could God be truly just if he forgave everyone who strayed from him of their own free will? He couldn't be by definition.
Additionally, I would add that I don't really believe God "sends" anyone to hell. When you reject God and die, you go to where God isn't present at all; everyone sends themselves to hell through their own free will. It just so happens that existence without any trace of God is torture.
I'd recommend you read "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis. It's an absolutely fantastic book on what hell could potentially look like.
@@redmusic26 There is no standard of justice by which an infinite punishment is suitable for a finite crime. Before you say it, the death penalty is not an infinite punishment. Infinite torture serves no purpose.
Every time hell is mentioned or alluded to in the book of Matthew it's accompanied by language that clearly indicates that God is the one sending people there.
Great video!
2:51 That's good to know. Cause I think Universalism is very plausible.
Great video.
You should make a video in every biblical reference in Minecraft itself
You should do a video on Unitarianism
Is universalism heretical? If I converted to Christianity, I think I would probably need to be a universalist, but I also would not want to join some non-denominational church. How would traditional Catholic and Protestant churches receive universalism? Is hopeful universalism okay?
At 7:50 you point out the Daily Reformation guy argued he is a Universalist because in the early church Universalism was prominent / popular.
At 8:06 you make the excellent point that just because something is popular doesn't mean it is true.
But at 8:10 concerning rejecting Universalism you say "when the early church is in like unanimous agreement about something, then I think we need to basically believe it."
Uh . . . It appears you're doing exactly what the Daily Reformation guy did.
Following this you said, "when the church actually studied this issue they ended up rejecting Universalism which is why the Athanasian Creed explicitly talks about eternal punishment."
I thought to myself, "Aha! Redeemed Zoomer is getting to the heart of the matter. We should accept or reject Universalism based on what God has revealed to us in His word."
But at 8:40 you said, "So if we're going to appeal to the authority of the early church we need to also appeal to the authority of the church as a whole and understand the church has the authority to come to consensuses on some issues and determine which things are heretical."
*Oy!*
Are you saying the church has the authority to determine what is true and what is heretical?
If you are saying this I would like to recommend you shift your paradigm concerning what has authority in a Christian's life.
Ask yourself, what led the church to write the Athanasian Creed?
It was the Scriptures that led the church to promote the truths we find in the Athanasian Creed.
We don't believe those truths because we find them in the Athanasian Creed.
We believe those truths because we find them in the Scriptures which the church restated in the Creed.
We don't believe something because the church said it. That would make us like the Thessalonians who believed Paul's messages without checking the Scriptures.
We believe something because we find it in the Scriptures. That would make us like the Bereans who believed Paul's messages after checking what he said against the Scriptures.
(Acts 17 : 11 "Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.")
It seems like he's saying "the church has the authority to (re) define God". Surely he doesn't mean that?
Redeemed Zoomer is saying that the church defines heresy (on subjects not fully expounded upon in scripture) based on what the scripture says. When the scripture isn’t crystal clear, church consensus and creeds are very useful.
So I have been thinking about faith and spirituality because of life and getting older etc. I was raised Christian but have grown jaded and cynical of the church. Recently have decided to explore it again, but I have some reservations that I hope you had answers to.
1. For those that have never heard about Christianity, never exposed or never had the chance to declare their faith before death (e.g: miscarriage) How then are these people saved and if they are not, isn’t that unfortunate (especially if say some are genuinely good people). Is the answer just, well sucks for them?
2. How does Christianity differ from other religions that have been around for probably as long as Christianity has been, like Islam, Buddhism etc.
(Disclaimer: my knowledge on religion is limited)
Love to hear what you think or even make a video about it! Thanks!
1. Those who have sinned but not heard of the gospel will not be saved. I wish they were, I really do. But they are not. As for those with mental illness and are unable to understand the gospel, there’s a Mike Winger video and he provides scripture which suggests these will be saved and are near to God. As for children and babies and the unborn, scripture strongly shows they will be saved. 1 Samuel shows this.
2. What separates Christianity is its rooted in history and not merely spiritual/philosophic teaching like Buddhism or Hinduism. In comparison to Islam, the Bible is inspired (shown by prophecy) and the Historical Person of Christ matches up with the scriptures.
Always remember that Jesus is not His representatives. He is holy and sinless, even we who are saved will fall short. Put your trust in Jesus my friend! I hope this was of some help.
@@JesusLiftedMySins so every single caveman is burning in Hell for the sin of existing before Jesus? That’s really stupid
I was reminded of a bible verse when reading your first question, Romans 1 verse 20. "For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities- his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God". (NLT) God bless you! Keep asking questions, and reading scripture so that they may be answered:)
Also, I am of the belief that children do not go to hell, as Jesus said the kingdom of God belongs to them. (Luke 18 verses 15-17
Regarding point number one)
Some theologians, not all, have proposed something known as invincible ignorance. This idea basically says that yes, there are people who through no fault of their own have not encountered the Christian faith, or have a limited understanding of it, and that god takes these circumstances into account. This does not guarantee salvation though.
I am a similar boat as you. I was raised Christian, and now I am agnostic. I am attempting to get back in touch with Christianity, and so I have been exploring various different churches/denominations. I confess, that overall, I am still on the fence. I do not believe that I could join a church that was not open to the idea of some form of universalism, or at the very least, some form of post-mortem salvation.
12:30 Not necessarily. Remember Revelation ends with Hell being thrown into the Lake of Fire and a "New Heaven and New Earth". The Damned obviously won't get to enter Heaven but they may be saved in the New Creation. Just a possible Eschaton since the Bible talks about dual resurrections.
What were the theological reasons for implementing something in your church architecture that can't be obtained except by going to hell? I can think of a few good reasons but I'd like to hear if you had a thought process about that.
What is the importance of appealing to the authority of the early church and the church as a whole?
Believing God doesn’t send people to Hell does NOT mean you think He lacks the ability. It stems from the belief that God’s love is so immense and His logic so unfathomable - He exists outside of time and space, let’s remember - that He chooses to save even the worst of us. Don’t believe it if you want! But it is rooted in the tradition of trying to understand God, not this strawman of “progressive” Christians just making up whatever they want. I love your videos, as I’ve said many times before, but there’s ROOM for progressive Christians in a secularizing society. Having 30% or so of Christians be accepting of LGBT people should be a TINY price to pay for allowing the Global Church to retain more of its cultural relevancy and continue to help society.
What are your thoughts about annihilationism ?
He thinks it's just atheism.
@@storba3860bro what
I found the position pretty confusing myself. He hasn't really elaborated.
Personally I have always had the thought in my head that one day god might destroy hell, and Satan along with it
That's what is said in the book of revalation (the fiery lake of sulfur mentioned in the video)
If god is all powerful, why not do it yesterday? Why not use his infinite knowledge and power to show people the error of their ways without resorting to allowing them to end up in such a hell?
I've heard of and once held that Jesus basically deleted hell when He resurrected.
@@TheCBoysDotCom If that is indeed the most just and merciful outcome, then that is what is happening.
I'm glad you give the view a fair shake. I'd say universalism has its place in some conversions because Hell is such a nasty view for some people to stomach that if you can bring someone into faith by toning it down. Permissible but not to be dogmatically asserted.
I would say that conversion is practically impossible with the infernalist viewpoint. Why would anyone choose to believe that God is permitting the devil to torture His creation for all eternity? I propose that nobody who wasn’t raised very dogmatically actually really believes in eternal hell, even if they say they do.
@@AbatedToast77 Read the Bible for *once* . The Bible says that the devil, along with his other angels, will also be thrown into the Lake of Fire in the future …
And there is nothing the Bible that says, in the meantime, that they are tormenting/torturing anyone.
@@Saurian25 Annihilationism is a perfectly valid viewpoint, no reason to be a dick about it. I think all of us will be reconciled with God eventually but there is certainly some support for the final death. I just don’t feel like my life or creation in general would have much purpose if a lot of it was summarily destroyed its creator.
Go to Biggest Jesus Channel, RevaGo channel, Martin Zender, Ace theo, Cathrine Holmes, Liam Mcallister, Paul's Gospel channel especially look into the word trinity from Faith Ignitor channel and you will learn and hopefully realize the truth about the True Almighty God and the True Lord Christ Jesus, God bless you all and keep you all safe.
I think it's eternal death and not eternal torture
It is described as darkness
Since it's described both as eternal death and eternal torture in the Bible, it could be conceivable that eternal death is for humans that are not saved, while eternal torture is for demons
That makes.more sense because demons aren't savable and have committed the unforgivable sin
Imagine yourself a glowing light being, invincible and perfectly loving, and Judas is next to you. He stabs you in the face when he can but you don't feel it. Infact you are godlike so you modify judas knife stabs to feel like tickles. He is a theif but you control infinity, so you can just will him to have all he ever hoped for, BUUUUT instead you chose to torture him for eternity. Something does not jive.
That is just wild speculation, though I don't know what God thinks. Maybe it is just conscious torment but I've discovered the things tormenting my conscience are not human, they are dark spiritual things. I have figured out that it's in the shredding of my nervous system that they feel cold I wonder if that's where people get the idea of death feeling cold. Certainly not a universal feeling I have heard the near death stories of light or warmth or love, but these interstitial things, it's similar to frostbite I once had in my hands but instead it's for my mind.
For sure there are right and good things and good intentions and respect and such, for me it was all ripped from me in a day. I was not careful around some scary things. Overly seeing good in things without acknowledging where they were wrong. Who knows. Again these are just guesses and speculations from experience.
I believe in Annihalationism
Everyone has a chance to be saved but not everyone has an equal chance.
The predestined teaching teaches that some ppl are predestined to be hated like Esau or the up coming antichrist.
God created vessels for glory and vessels for shame.
So maybe eternal damnation ends in eternal death, but even If someone could come out of hell he couldn't bc the old world is by then already wiped out.
So God could recreate worldtime in a timeless way like he is timeless.
And therefore God remains just and good and there is no shadow within his actions.
Remember when in Hebrew when it states that our god is an eternal consuming flame 🔥.
So therefore eternal punishment would create eternal shadow within God which is wicked to him, bc he is the heaven and he is also hell, bc he is the Lord.
I think this is kind of the only answer.
In addition to that God have given us all the words we speak so maybe we don't even have the words we need to understand what will happen next (after time ends and eternity starts)
Gen 33:10 for therefore I have seen thy face, as though I had seen the face of God.
This is how the story of Jacob and Esau finally ends.
Check out the book by Talbott called The Inescapable Love of God.
Romans 9 to 11 exists in a dialectic. Romans 9 is the hypothesis that is negated by Paul himself in Rom 11
7:21-7:46 See, this is why I'm not a Christian- You're supposed to sacrifice basic empathy for a supernatural being who very well could be evil.
It concerns me that this guy is getting so much publicity. He clearly hasn’t found a stable point in his spiritual journey that actually values human life and perpetuity, and still entertains harmful ideas about human nature (a person that rejects god forever can only exist if people don’t change assuming everything else he’s said is true, which would imply people can be truly evil, and therefore people have no reason to be good besides avoiding hell if they even can change)
Do a video on abolitionism (the belief that the damned are dead and not conscious )
That's soul sleep. There are certain verses that support it (the living know that they shall die but the dead know nothing, in Sheol no one can praise you, those in the ground will awake, etc) but there are other verses that seem to contradict the doctrine like the harrowing of Hades. I'd say this view makes more sense than Eternal Conscious Torment simply for the fact that the Bible doesn't make clear distinctions between the General and Particular judgements.
11:05 In order for Universalism to be teue, you need to evangelize the Nether - that is, *BUILD CHURCHES IN THE NETHER PLSSSS!!!* 😎😎😎😎😎😎😎