Why I'm not in the PCA (or similar denominations) - KingdomCraft
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- Опубликовано: 26 янв 2023
- Music:
The first song is the music for Psalm 36 of the Genevan Psalter by Claude Goudimel. The lyrics to that can be found here:
genevanpsalter.com/music-and-...
The rest of the music is written by me.
I like your reconquesta talking cause it's a thing I've just never thought about before and it's interesting historical narrative
I get your point, and I respect your position. I just don’t see any realistic way the Episcopalian/ELCA/PCUSA can be brought back to orthodoxy; they trip over themselves to affirm whatever the latest social justice craze du jour is.
It’s a little bit different in the Lutheran world with the Missouri synod having been founded on its own rather than splitting from the mainline. But just as I go to a Lutheran church because I believe in its doctrines and don’t go to other churches, say Baptist, because I have doctrinal disagreements, so would I not attend the progressive mainline. At this point they believe, teach, and confess different things that I don’t believe, and I don’t see the point in going to a church that believes, teaches, and confesses what I don’t believe in.
I think he's talking about attending churches within the mainline denominations that remain orthodox. Many of the orthodox churches within the mainline are mostly older people. Younger orthodox Christians tend to join an evangelical church instead of these mainline churches. I believe that the requonquista idea is to strengthen these churches that may decline soon. There are many orthodox PCUSA churches. In fact, I think that the entire San Diego PCUSA presbyte is orthodox. He's not talking about attending heretical churches, but aging or lukewarm ones.
The intro was funny 👍
Would be horrible to take out of context .
Even if the conservatives re-take the mainline denominations, does that necessarily mean we will also re-take our affiliated institutions? I cannot imagine Harvard turning back conservative Puritan just because we re-take the mainline denominations
I believe retaking the mainline denominations is a good thing. But if I was raising a family, I’d probably stick to the evangelical denominations.
I’m planning to have the mainlines retaken by the time I start a family
@@redeemedzoomer6053 I hope that really does happen, it’s time for the Christian institutions to be Christian once again.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 you're so inspiring.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 Holy crap you're based
@@redeemedzoomer6053the exuberance of youth
I've never thought of things this way... You've inspired me to see if I can get involved in the local ELCA
Theology nerds (not an insult, I’m a novice one!) get way too caught up in these stereotypes based on church leadership. Your average ELCA Lutheran is just a normal Lutheran.
As long as your personal church has a genuine believer pastoring it, I can't entirely disagree. Our PCA church is beautiful, and we revere the sacraments. The PCUSA church i used to go to was full of topical sermons and all for "open-mindedness".
Nice, what PCA church is it
@@redeemedzoomer6053 Westminster Presbyterian in Gainesville TX. The sanctuary is actually from an old church that was on an army base / POW camp outside of town during WWII.
@@SemperReformanda91 added it to my Historic Churches map!
Great video. One of my biggest problems with the way boomers ran the country into the ground is the way they just walked away from everything that presented even the slightest inconvenience to them. Examples include their first marriages, second marriages, their neighborhoods, their universities, and especially their churches. Their solution is always to move 2 exits further down the highway and keep making as much money as possible. They avoid the problems instead of confronting them. Love your videos.
The problem is there's nothing that can be done once a presbyterian synod have a majority of corrupted elders. It's not a matter of boomer being cowards and fleeing from the problem, it's a matter of how a presbyterian synod works. Elders rule over the denomination and control what is being taught. If a majority of elders go woke, this means the church will stop teaching solid christian doctrine and cause the sheep to go astray. This means they will keep ordaining woke pastors/sending people to woke seminaries and continue their mandates as elders.
Lol what??? Goofy comment
I’m not sure if influencing culture is the point, though. I think we’re supposed to go and make disciples, who then turn away from the ways of the world. We see the result of widespread Christian culture in areas like the Bible Belt where everyone is churched, but far fewer are actually showing evidence of being born again
This is a stellar build, btw
I think you might have a point there 🤔"Christianity was cool now! The only problem was people were only being Christina because it's cool" --History of the entire Church, I guess... video.
14:34 I think it'll be good than the PCA can finally get some better buildings and the PCUSA can finally like have people who go to heaven. 🤣🤣💀
BRUTAL 😂
Not sure if the history of the PCA, but much of the ACNA was kicked out and sued for property by the Episcopal church. Many of us did put up a fight, and some diocese were more successful than others. I wish it was as simple for us as the Op: Recon seems to suggest it could be.
Was the ACNA actually forcibly kicked out or did people just give up and leave?
Whole dioceses, along with their bishops, chose to reaffiliate with other global Anglican churches to stay in the Anglican communion, but TEC fought hard against this happening and sued them for property, for institutions, and for whatever they could get. Individual churches who fought to stay orthodox were kicked out and property taken from them as well. (Good Shepherd Anglican in Binghamton as a case study). Many in ACNA today are big on planting churches that meet in schools, warehouses, you name it, but there was a big battle to keep the institutions, property, church camps, a few seminaries.
In Lincoln, Nebraska, there are 3 PCA churches and 2 of them meet in older buildings that are former mainline church buildings!
As someone raised in a PCUSA church who left to join the EPC, and I also have been a member of several PCA churches, I get where you are coming from.
Tradition and nice architecture are just that, nice. But as a parent, I will raise my kids in a church that preaches truth, and many if not most PCUSA churches just do not anymore.
Your goal is a noble one, but IMO they are past the point of no return. Those mainline churches are getting more and more woke and progressive, all the way to the top.
The movement we recently launched to retake the Mainline churches is gaining traction quickly though
I can’t help but think if you need to retake you have already lost them.
Interesting perspective. In the Midwest, mainline churches have less than zero impact on culture. We just don’t have many old historic churches, and the ones that do exist are often occupied by Pentecostals, baptists, non-denoms, and so on. I think what you believe is great for the east coast, but you’re applying your very niche perspective to the whole country, where the PCUSA might exist out here, but has the same influence as any theologically liberal church, which is almost none, if not just none.
Like the point you make at 9:00 is dead on opposite to what is commonly thought in the Midwest. You see a big old stone church in the middle of town and you think it is completely illegitimate and probably has 10 people attending it and maybe 2 are actually Christians but neither one is the pastor. They don’t do charitable works, they don’t teach anything, they don’t reach outside of themselves. All of that is good, I just find it interesting how our perspectives are opposite. But then again I don’t think there are 2 more polar opposite worldviews than that if a New Yorker and an Iowan.
@@calebneff5777 Yeah... I don't know why the building matters so much to him lol.
What are you talking about?? The Midwest is by far the most Mainline Protestant area in the US. It’s the main center of Lutheranism, and it has the highest percentage of Methodists. I’ve lived in the Midwest my whole life, and most people I know think of Baptists as a Southern thing and Pentecostals as a fringe group.
@@CosmicYeet Because church should be a sacred place? Do you dress nice for a wedding? Do you mow your lawn? Is your car clean? And yet the place where we literally go to worship Christ and receive communion should be practically intentionally hideous and contemporary because reasons??
@@fighterofthenightman1057 Interesting perspective. I don't find modern church designs to be hideous. I mean sure some of them are, but lets not lump all of them into a basket.
History says you are unlikely to retake a denomination once its institutions go liberal. It's only happened once, as far as I know. The only group of churches to save themselves from theological liberalism and retake their institutions is the Southern Baptist Convention in the 1970's - 1990's, and that was only possible because of Southern Baptist congregational/committee polity applied at the Convention level. The majority of pastors and members were still conservative and could vote in convention presidents who appointed committee members who appointed trustees who could control institutions. Some of the annual conventions in those days had over 40,000 people attend to vote. It was a huge effort requiring a lot of energy and organizing over a couple decades. Do you have any of that actually going on in the PCUSA?
It's cuz the conservative mindset is always to run away and be cowardly. If liberals can take over stuff, so can conservatives, unless you think the liberals are stronger and more resilient
@@redeemedzoomer6053liberals took over stuff by saying have all the sex you want. Satisfy all desires and here is free money to be a single mother.
No conservative policy is getting voted in over that.
I watched the slide happen over my lifetime and it’s only accelerating.
The issues of the church are not in isolation from that democratic trend.
By this logic we should all still be Roman Catholics
@@codygarner3686I’m Lutheran … they kicked US out! We never had any intention of leaving. So yes, we should ideally all be Catholics! But the Papists didn’t allow that. No Mainline denominations are kicking out conservatives.
Why then were the reformers ok for leaving Roman Catholicism? Shouldn't they have stayed and fought? Why not be a part of RC to do the same thing-they're older and have had a lot of cultural influence.
there's good ways to split and bad ways to split. The good way is where you take the institutions with you, which the Reformers did, and which some more recent Presbyterian offshoots like ECO did. The bad way is where you leave the institutions behind and try to start from scratch, which is more what the PCA did.
It got too hot for them. But I’m glad someone went there.
Protestantism really feels like cartmam saying screw you guys I’m going home ad infinitum
Being in, or at least having come to spiritual maturity within, the SBC (technically, I'm a member in a PCA congregation at the moment- not really an SBC church nearby and the org is an absolute cluster right now), weighing the options of trying to stick it out and sustain/restore a denom that's going apostate vs branching off and starting something else, this is definitely a tough line to walk. Then again, if some of out worst malefactors like Russell Moore, Beth Moore, Rick Warren, and now possibly Karen Swallow Prior, keep leaving, the problem may eventually solve itself. Now if only we could have a Christian as the SBC president...
As a Holy Roman Catholic I love your videos.
Please keep up the good work & God Bless.
Your videos (as well as my time around Methodists) have really improved my opinion of protestants.
Yeah, the sacraments are pretty important.
that is one bigger areas where I think the baptists could handle things a bit different. They have been consistent though. It isn't the only one though.
Presbyterians are pretty cool though.
Interesting video. I’m in a PCA church , tbh I doubt I’ll try to leave for PCUSA because I want good theological teaching and mine actually is in a great building. But I get what you’re saying and I hope the retaking of the old churches can be done
I want to attend a Presbyterian church/learn more about Presbyterianism, but there aren't any where I live. What can I do?
Lutheran is also good. If you are in America you can probably find one:
www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?mid=1PNd_sJagci84PyKmGC6M5VJtaLMEWxg&ll=36.974096686933706%2C-92.75978994999997&z=4&entry=yt
I am a new Presbyterian here. There's only two Presbyterian churches, both PCUSA. One is fully conservative while the other is liberal but the pastor fully believes in the Trinity, Christ's resurrection and other core essentials of the Nicene Creed. So I'm overall lucky and happy with the options I have.
Come to the CREC!
I’m curious, what are your thoughts on the OPC?
not a fan, it's everything I don't like about the PCA, but multiplied by a much larger factor
What about the ARP? Pretty sure they are older than the PCUSA.
I like them compared to the other conservative denominations
I am a Presbyterian as well the same boat wow
Lucky you from New York I live down south guess the state I dare you
By that logic, come home to Orthodoxy
Can I Invite you to my church in mo!
As someone who loves and agrees with your reasons for preferring PCUSA, I still think the better hope is found in "liturgizing" the PCA - basically working within the PCA to garner more cache with respect to nuance on the confessions, historic buildings, etc. Moreover, you didn't address EPC and ECO, which would me "middling" between the two main denoms.
You might be able to get more liturgy into the PCA but it will be literally impossible to snap old historic buildlings and music programs out of thin air for them - and before you say they can buy old mainline buildlings, remember they're dirt broke cuz they left the mainline resources behind them
Have you thought of going to seminary, dude?
No plans as of now
@@redeemedzoomer6053 It'd be cool to see you as a pastor in the PC(USA)!
Have you thought of going the licensed lay preacher route?
Actually the WCF takes a high view of sacraments
*Luke 22:19*
_"And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: _*_this do in remembrance of me."_*
Yea? And?
@@redeemedzoomer6053
It’s a symbol of Jesus’s sacrifice. We do it in remembrance of him.
@@JohnVILXIII that’s not the Presbyterian interpretation. I’m a Presbyterian
Nobody denies that we do it in remembrance of Him… but sacramentarians do deny that He meant it when He said “This is my body”.
@@redeemedzoomer6053 Ok. Just telling you what Jesus said.
have you checked out ECO?
I go to an ECO Church for part of the year when I'm at school
@@redeemedzoomer6053 awesome! i grew up in a pca church but now attend an eco one.
@@jessiem1127 nice! Is it a traditional building/style?
@@redeemedzoomer6053 suprisingly yes. it’s a castle style building.
@@jessiem1127 nice what’s it called
The PCA church i attend and the other ones I have visited and watched online have a high view of the sacraments and believe they are a means of grace. Sorry that has been your experience. If your staying to change it, you would need to be a TE and would need to have a majority of TE to change anything, to which you would probably lose credentials with them before that started.
Hmmm... I wonder why the PCA doesn't have nice buildings? 🤔 😂
What about Orthodox Presbyterian
I don't like them because they're very Retreatist. They seem to just wanna huddle in a corner clutching their doctrines rather than going out and transforming the world like the Mainline Churches. They've been around the longest, yet still haven't build a single decent-looking church
@@redeemedzoomer6053 I like a lot of what you have to say, but I feel like you value the physical buildings way too much.
@@CosmicYeet and the OPC clearly doesn’t value them enough
@@redeemedzoomer6053 Maybe? In my area there are not many old churches around. Newly developed areas lead to newly developed church buildings. I really am intrigued as to why you feel so strongly about the physical church building. I heard what you said in the video, but that didn't seem as important as evangelism or proper theology.... You're giving up your theology for a building in a sense, and I think it would be of greater benefit if you were at a church that preaches what you believe.
Either way man, I love your videos and I hope you don't take this as an attack, because it isn't. It is a view I have never heard before, and I am genuinely curious.
@@CosmicYeet, I think the idea is to have both tradition and beauty -- both of which are important. Of course solid doctrinal teaching is at the core, but a lot of these modern churches have drifted too far into modernity on every level. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting a level of beauty in the physical building, even if it is modest. This has been the case throughout Christiandom until 5 minutes ago.
Return to tradition! God bless.
I think largely what you are railing against is the refusal to build. (I'm leaving sacramentology for the time, I'm definently higher church than 80% of PCA) It would be one thing if the PCA, the Free Methodists, etc. Leave their denomination and then build but they don't. Love or hate them the only only evangelical denomination currently wholesale publicly stated to want to build anything and engage culture in any Kuyperian or Theonomic way (take your pick) is the CERC. I think there is a good reason to have the parallel goals of actually building in the evangelical denominations and reconquering the mailine denominations. I.e. maybe those in the trenches with the PCA and the SBC could actually found some colleges, libraries, hospitals, etc. While those in the trenches of the mainline fight the Reconquista. Semper Reformata Universal
Okay I respect that CREC at least DESIRES to build, unlike the PCA, but that doesn't mean they'll be successful. The CREC really tried to start from scratch, which is why they somehow have even FEWER beautiful buildings than the PCA.
Same thing with TEC and ACNA where I am. TEC church buildings are so much better
This is exactly why you need a Pope
Algo comment
IMO: weird commitments. I don't buy this "potential for cultural impact" in the PCUSA vs. PCA at all. If anything, the exemplar in this fashion is Tim Keller/Redeemer's example, which is/was PCA! I've never seen a thriving PCUSA church, and most have nothing more than a handful of septuagenarians. No shade, I'm just saying that's not exactly "being a cultural powerhouse".
Following your logic we all should be papists: they have much older history than the PCUSA or any mainline protestant denomination, and they also have awesome temples. This is all seem to care: be part of something original and have fine looking real estate belonging to your denomination. Your reconquista plan sounds awesome but your motivation is meh.
Convert to the real church Orthodoxy!
By this logic (which is correct and valid) you should be Catholic sine its the one true and original church
Why not Eastern Orthodox
Apart from the Orthodox Church, which Rome split from in 1054
@@redeemedzoomer6053 Because Jesus founded His Holy Catholic Apostolic Church in St. Peter (cf. St. Matthew 16,16-19), who became the first Pope (Bishop/Patriarch of Rome), whose primacy and ecumenical title was accepted and defended by all the Church Fathers both from the West (such as St. Augustine of Hippo) as well as from the East (such as St. John Chrysostom -Patriarch of Constantinople), as well as by all the predecessors of the current Orthodox patriarchs, until the ones of 1054 a.D ceased, with the one of Constantinople taking the ecumenical title to himself. Also because, as St. Paul (cf. Ephesians 4,4-6) and Pope Pius XII teached, Christ is the head of one body that does not divide itself; thus, the schismatics, just like the heretics, even though with valid apostolic succession clergy, are out of the Church, that there's no salvation outside of ('Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus').
@@carolusaugustussanctorum
I don’t intend to get into a lengthy debate, only to mention that Chrysostom actually believed Peter’s chair was in Antioch.
@@justanotherbaptistjew5659 Absolutely not, and that's ridiculously obvious: St. John Chrysostom -as the venerable Constantinopolitan Patriarch, Church Father and Saint he was- knew about the Holy Tradition concerning the Apostle St. Peter he wrote so much about; including Peter's episcopacy in Rome and his martyrdom there alongside the Apostle St. Paul; St. John Chrysostom really did not ignor St. Peter's (and St. Paul's) last years of ministry after Peter's episcopacy in Antioch- including their glorious (crying-out-loud) martyrdom- just so the future 'orthodox' schismatics he himself would abomine, have an excuse to be schismatics while acknowledging Chrysostom's writings about the Prince of the Apostles and his eminent primacy.
Still not seeing the issue with being “woke”. What do you think “woke” means? Or the issue with being progressive? Jesus’ main tenets more align with progressive movements like socialism and communism
what denomination are you
Jesus came to die for our sins. "Wokeness" tells us were aren't sinners. If you believe the woke narrative you wont see the need for Jesus.
@@matthewdevonshire3656 for one, “being woke” before it was co-opted by conservatives to mean anything they didn’t like, simply meant being aware of systemic racism in America. It has since expanded to other avenues of social justice, but absolutely, in no way, has ever claimed that humans are not sinful
@@hutchbailey2208 Well, I didn't know that, but co-opted or not the term generally means being in support of progressive ideals? "LGBT" rights as far as I'm aware is a woke ideal and that is the sort of thing I meant when I said wokeness tells us we arent sinners. The Christian view on LGBT is to repent and change your ways, the woke view is to tell you that its natural and good.
@@hutchbailey2208 "Woke" wasn't co-opted by conservatives, but by white liberals who used it to describe themselves, and that's where conservatives first encountered the term. This is something I witnessed first hand being involved in an inner-city Christian ministry a few years back (when I thought I might see real racial reconciliation in my lifetime), so I was familiar with "woke" long before I heard any conservative use the term. A good description (not sure if it's concise enough to call a definition) would be that to be "woke" (in the since that current conservatives use term) means believing that society is divided into oppressed/oppressor groups along lines of race, class, gender, sexuality, etc via hegemonic power. But privileged people are blind so we need to defer to the lived experience of the marginalized to dismantle unjust systems. I agree it's never claimed that people in general are not sinful, but I'm afraid that it has been used to declare certain actions that would otherwise be considered sinful depending on which group the person or entity committing the action is a part (e.g. "Black people can't be racist").